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I am trying something here by adding language examples to the articles on various phonemes. Not having much background in linguistics, the existing descriptions are not very informative to me. Please add other language examples if you can, as it may be helpful to other readers. [[User:CyborgTosser| CyborgTosser ( Only half the battle)]] 11:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
see Talk:Aspiration (phonetics) lysdexia 12:45, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As the article says, in some languages such as Hindi /p/ and /pʰ/ are distinctive sounds that can change the meaning of a word. I added separate Hindi examples [pɑl] and [pʰɑl] (taken from the IPA handbook) to illustrate this. [pʰɑl] was removed on the grounds that there should be only "one example per language". If this is the rule then it seems that we should have separate articles unaspirated voiceless bilabial plosive and aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive: otherwise how are we to illustrate this distinction? Also, is there a page anywhere where these "rules" are set out? Cheers. Grover cleveland 13:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The sound example sounds like 'b' not 'p' to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.192.95 ( talk) 16:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
in truth both P and B are voiceless plosives however P is 'twice' as plosive. either or can be voiced or unvoiced.
an unvoiced B expressed with twice plosivity will sound as P. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.158.244 ( talk) 14:20, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This sound is also found is some Arabic dialects such as Iraqi, Moroccan, and Andalusi. It needs to be included in here.-- 169.231.49.10 ( talk) 23:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
we currently say
And a few of the words in that paragraph are mine. But I'd like to bring up a third possibility: that it's just a coincidence. So far as I know, there's not much evidence of contact influence in either direction across the Sahara until very recent times. This would be an exception, then, and require a good explanation.
Its possible, indeed perhaps most likely, that Arabic had already shifted /p/ > /f/ while it was still confined to the Arabian peninsula. If so, we can throw out the idea that Arabic lost its /p/ under influence from the indigenous languages of Sub-Saharan Africa or even North Africa. This would then require us to posit Arabic influence for the loss of /p/ in African languages, even though Arabic has had much greater and long-lasting influence over the languages of western Asia, from Turkey to India, and to my knowledge has not caused the loss of an inherited /p/ sound in any of them. Why would it be different in Africa?
I would like to have a paragraph presenting all three points of view, but I know how strict our sourcing policy is, and that I can't just add my thoughts that it might be a coincidence and then point to this talkpage argument when asked for evidence. But that made me notice that we don't have any references for the other two points of view either. Indeed it's possible no scholar has ever written a paper about this supposed influence phenomenon because there's no good evidence for causation in either direction and thus no need to write a paper arguing either in favor of or against it. As such it might be best for us to delete the whole paragraph, as much as I hate to erase hard work. — Soap — 09:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
I am trying something here by adding language examples to the articles on various phonemes. Not having much background in linguistics, the existing descriptions are not very informative to me. Please add other language examples if you can, as it may be helpful to other readers. [[User:CyborgTosser| CyborgTosser ( Only half the battle)]] 11:32, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)
see Talk:Aspiration (phonetics) lysdexia 12:45, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)
As the article says, in some languages such as Hindi /p/ and /pʰ/ are distinctive sounds that can change the meaning of a word. I added separate Hindi examples [pɑl] and [pʰɑl] (taken from the IPA handbook) to illustrate this. [pʰɑl] was removed on the grounds that there should be only "one example per language". If this is the rule then it seems that we should have separate articles unaspirated voiceless bilabial plosive and aspirated voiceless bilabial plosive: otherwise how are we to illustrate this distinction? Also, is there a page anywhere where these "rules" are set out? Cheers. Grover cleveland 13:13, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
The sound example sounds like 'b' not 'p' to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.155.192.95 ( talk) 16:50, 4 February 2010 (UTC)
in truth both P and B are voiceless plosives however P is 'twice' as plosive. either or can be voiced or unvoiced.
an unvoiced B expressed with twice plosivity will sound as P. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.218.158.244 ( talk) 14:20, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
This sound is also found is some Arabic dialects such as Iraqi, Moroccan, and Andalusi. It needs to be included in here.-- 169.231.49.10 ( talk) 23:18, 14 November 2013 (UTC)
we currently say
And a few of the words in that paragraph are mine. But I'd like to bring up a third possibility: that it's just a coincidence. So far as I know, there's not much evidence of contact influence in either direction across the Sahara until very recent times. This would be an exception, then, and require a good explanation.
Its possible, indeed perhaps most likely, that Arabic had already shifted /p/ > /f/ while it was still confined to the Arabian peninsula. If so, we can throw out the idea that Arabic lost its /p/ under influence from the indigenous languages of Sub-Saharan Africa or even North Africa. This would then require us to posit Arabic influence for the loss of /p/ in African languages, even though Arabic has had much greater and long-lasting influence over the languages of western Asia, from Turkey to India, and to my knowledge has not caused the loss of an inherited /p/ sound in any of them. Why would it be different in Africa?
I would like to have a paragraph presenting all three points of view, but I know how strict our sourcing policy is, and that I can't just add my thoughts that it might be a coincidence and then point to this talkpage argument when asked for evidence. But that made me notice that we don't have any references for the other two points of view either. Indeed it's possible no scholar has ever written a paper about this supposed influence phenomenon because there's no good evidence for causation in either direction and thus no need to write a paper arguing either in favor of or against it. As such it might be best for us to delete the whole paragraph, as much as I hate to erase hard work. — Soap — 09:53, 24 August 2023 (UTC)