Vlastimir was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 13, 2012). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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Reviewer: DCI ( talk · contribs) 20:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC) Hello! I will be beginning this review as soon as possible, hopefully later tonight. DCI talk 20:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I'll respond here to the invitation by DCI on my talk page to provide comments on this article. These are some observation on the first look, not a deeper analysis of the matter:
According to Živković, it is very likely that Vlastimir was a Christian.
Serbian names are usually accompanied by their Serbian pronunciation in IPA, but it may not be a bad idea to give their approximate pronunciation in English, as it is done here. However, I'm not sure that those accents on the last two syllables are correct in this case. The name would be probably pronounced with the main accent on the first syllable, and a secondary accent on the last syllable.
It would be better to say: He ruled
Serbia. It is previously stated that he was a prince, so the rank of his state is clear. The state is referred to in Byzantine sources as Serbia or Serblia. I haven't seen in literature that Serbian sates are enumerated as "first principality", "second principality", "first kingdom", "second kingdom", etc.
I don't have access to the source cited for this statement, but it looks strange to me. The Byzantine rule over Serbian lands was mostly nominal, and the Byzantines were hardly in a position to allow or not allow the Serbs to have their own ruling class. Also, the term " foederati" seems anachronistic and inapplicable here.
What, he founded the Serbs? He was the leader of the Serbs when they settled in the Balkans during the reign of Emperor Heraclius.
Remove duchies.
This bold statement, he built the Serbian nation, is reference with two rather old books. I haven't seen such a statement in Živković.
According to Živković (ref 29), Krajina was already the župan of Travunia, and after he married Vlastimir's daughter, Vlastimir gave him the title of archon. Živković also gave possible explanations for this promotion. Krajina's father, Beloje, was also a župan; whether that title corresponds to "count", is disputable. Vladimir ( talk) 17:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I am requesting a second opinion for this article, as I am having a difficult time deciding whether it meets certain GA criteria or not. My first instinct was to fail the article, but I'm not sure that a failure could be entirely justified. I apologize for this. dci | TALK 20:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Agree there are issues with the focus and prose. A bit of background is good, but this goes into it in too much depth. I would consider removing that whole section, incorporating maybe the first sentence into Life and Reign (it is the only one that directly mentions Vlastimir). Some parts are written in essayish format (i.e. It seems that the governorship was hereditary, and that the župan reported to the Serbian prince, whom they were obliged to aid in war, The date of his accession is not known, though it is thought to have been around 830 and This alliance could easily explain Malamir's action. Sentences like this need to be attributed to someone or be written more encyclopaedic. Other prose issues include unclear sentences Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959) mentions that the Serbian throne is inherited by the son, i.e. the first-born, though in his enumeration of Serbian monarchs, in one occasion there is a triumvirate and roughly the later province of Rascia, including Bosnia; part of Zagorje, lit. "hinterlands" (what does lit. mean anyway?). I only had a cursory look at the prose, but found it hard to follow in many places, possibly due to the overuse of commas. AIRcorn (talk) 11:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:NPOV please stick to modern scientific sources & authors and mention of old opinion only if found as relevant in modern secondary sources from second half of 20th and 21st century.
No point directly citing (some of which almost century old and not even reliable):
Bury, John B. (1912). A History of the Eastern Empire from the Fall of Irene to the Accession of Basil I. (A.D. 802-867). London: MacMillan. ISBN 9781275594623.Runc
Ćorović, Vladimir (2001). Istorija srpskog naroda (Internet ed.). Belgrade: Ars Libri.
Evans, Arthur (2007). Through Bosnia and the Herzegovina on Foot During the Insurrection, August and September 1875. Cosimo, Inc. ISBN 978-1-60206-270-2.
Forbes, Nevill (2004). The Balkans: A History of Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Rumania, Turkey. Digital Antiquaria. ISBN 978-1-58057-314-6.
Houtsma, M. Th. (1993). E.J. Brill's first encyclopaedia of Islam 1913–1936. BRILL. ISBN 90-04-08265-4.
Mijatovic, Cedomilj (2007) [1908]. Servia and the Servians. Cosimo, Inc. ISBN 978-1-60520-005-7.
Runciman, Steven (1930). A History of the First Bulgarian Empire. London: G. Bell & Sons. ISBN 9780598749222.
Zlatarski, Vasil (1918). История на Първото българско Царство. I. Епоха на хуно-българското надмощие (679—852) (in Bulgarian) (Internet ed.). Sofia. Miki Filigranski ( talk) 13:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
Vlastimir was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (April 13, 2012). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Vlastimir article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
|
|
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: DCI ( talk · contribs) 20:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC) Hello! I will be beginning this review as soon as possible, hopefully later tonight. DCI talk 20:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I'll respond here to the invitation by DCI on my talk page to provide comments on this article. These are some observation on the first look, not a deeper analysis of the matter:
According to Živković, it is very likely that Vlastimir was a Christian.
Serbian names are usually accompanied by their Serbian pronunciation in IPA, but it may not be a bad idea to give their approximate pronunciation in English, as it is done here. However, I'm not sure that those accents on the last two syllables are correct in this case. The name would be probably pronounced with the main accent on the first syllable, and a secondary accent on the last syllable.
It would be better to say: He ruled
Serbia. It is previously stated that he was a prince, so the rank of his state is clear. The state is referred to in Byzantine sources as Serbia or Serblia. I haven't seen in literature that Serbian sates are enumerated as "first principality", "second principality", "first kingdom", "second kingdom", etc.
I don't have access to the source cited for this statement, but it looks strange to me. The Byzantine rule over Serbian lands was mostly nominal, and the Byzantines were hardly in a position to allow or not allow the Serbs to have their own ruling class. Also, the term " foederati" seems anachronistic and inapplicable here.
What, he founded the Serbs? He was the leader of the Serbs when they settled in the Balkans during the reign of Emperor Heraclius.
Remove duchies.
This bold statement, he built the Serbian nation, is reference with two rather old books. I haven't seen such a statement in Živković.
According to Živković (ref 29), Krajina was already the župan of Travunia, and after he married Vlastimir's daughter, Vlastimir gave him the title of archon. Živković also gave possible explanations for this promotion. Krajina's father, Beloje, was also a župan; whether that title corresponds to "count", is disputable. Vladimir ( talk) 17:32, 31 January 2012 (UTC)
I am requesting a second opinion for this article, as I am having a difficult time deciding whether it meets certain GA criteria or not. My first instinct was to fail the article, but I'm not sure that a failure could be entirely justified. I apologize for this. dci | TALK 20:46, 8 February 2012 (UTC)
Agree there are issues with the focus and prose. A bit of background is good, but this goes into it in too much depth. I would consider removing that whole section, incorporating maybe the first sentence into Life and Reign (it is the only one that directly mentions Vlastimir). Some parts are written in essayish format (i.e. It seems that the governorship was hereditary, and that the župan reported to the Serbian prince, whom they were obliged to aid in war, The date of his accession is not known, though it is thought to have been around 830 and This alliance could easily explain Malamir's action. Sentences like this need to be attributed to someone or be written more encyclopaedic. Other prose issues include unclear sentences Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus (r. 913–959) mentions that the Serbian throne is inherited by the son, i.e. the first-born, though in his enumeration of Serbian monarchs, in one occasion there is a triumvirate and roughly the later province of Rascia, including Bosnia; part of Zagorje, lit. "hinterlands" (what does lit. mean anyway?). I only had a cursory look at the prose, but found it hard to follow in many places, possibly due to the overuse of commas. AIRcorn (talk) 11:34, 29 February 2012 (UTC)
Per WP:AGEMATTERS and WP:NPOV please stick to modern scientific sources & authors and mention of old opinion only if found as relevant in modern secondary sources from second half of 20th and 21st century.
No point directly citing (some of which almost century old and not even reliable):
Bury, John B. (1912). A History of the Eastern Empire from the Fall of Irene to the Accession of Basil I. (A.D. 802-867). London: MacMillan. ISBN 9781275594623.Runc
Ćorović, Vladimir (2001). Istorija srpskog naroda (Internet ed.). Belgrade: Ars Libri.
Evans, Arthur (2007). Through Bosnia and the Herzegovina on Foot During the Insurrection, August and September 1875. Cosimo, Inc. ISBN 978-1-60206-270-2.
Forbes, Nevill (2004). The Balkans: A History of Bulgaria, Serbia, Greece, Rumania, Turkey. Digital Antiquaria. ISBN 978-1-58057-314-6.
Houtsma, M. Th. (1993). E.J. Brill's first encyclopaedia of Islam 1913–1936. BRILL. ISBN 90-04-08265-4.
Mijatovic, Cedomilj (2007) [1908]. Servia and the Servians. Cosimo, Inc. ISBN 978-1-60520-005-7.
Runciman, Steven (1930). A History of the First Bulgarian Empire. London: G. Bell & Sons. ISBN 9780598749222.
Zlatarski, Vasil (1918). История на Първото българско Царство. I. Епоха на хуно-българското надмощие (679—852) (in Bulgarian) (Internet ed.). Sofia. Miki Filigranski ( talk) 13:50, 12 July 2022 (UTC)