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In the Books 'The Unseen Hand' and 'Wall street and The Bolshevik Revolution'it is clearly demonstrated to me that Jewish support of comunism was mostly involuntary. The second mentioned work uses only mainstream sources;US congressional Record and the NY Times, et cetera to illustrate the vast sums expended to defeat the White and the Green Armies; as the super-rich Mellons, Rockefellers and such were afraid of the Green Army's 250,000 men establishing a new free republic even less authoritarian than the USA. Such a new republic and a rise of freedom and individualism in Russia would have negated the decades that monopolists had worked to cartelize what industries and markets could be controlled in the atmosphere of laissez-faire which had contributed so much to prosperity and power for America. Only after the Scottish and AngloSaxon power brokers had threatened the Jews did they mostly accede to the 'requests' to help the Reds destroy Russian chances for freedom. To this day Rssia has suffered the ill effects of their slavery under the religion of communism. Pollution is rampant in the commons destroyed by incompetents and tyrants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.40.186 ( talk) 02:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
From my readings, I am a little unsure. How was Lenin perceived as a leader from the general public? Had he have been around for much longer (and not died) I believe he would've been like Stalin, however his body was pickled and perserved. My understanding is that he wanted a regular funarel and he is still considered a 'hero' today. Can anyone comment on this and maybe clear it up as I can't find anything that makes this clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.222.217 ( talk) 06:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Would the editor who put the tags in the above section like to discuss his motivations in so-doing here on the Talk page? 16:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
1. I agree with 84.68.245.219 above about the overall relevance of this topic to this particular article. A separate article may be more appropriate. 2. The word "emancipation" is inaccurate and inappropriate. It smacks of non-NPOV. More importantly it is inapplicable here - to emancipate means to free from slavery, bondage, etc. While Lenin might have been anti-anti-Semitic he did not free the Russian Jews from slavery, lead them out of Egypt or anything like that. Hence "Lenin's opposition to antisemitism" would be better... 3. except that the body of the text does not unambiguously support even that phrasing with references to some historians viewing Lenin's record in this matter as "highly uneven", admission that the Red Army also carried out pogroms and so on. 4. The tag to "anarchists" in this section links to Nestor Makhno. It's been awhile since I did the reading but I was under the impression that the allegations against Makhno were unsupported and essentially a product of Bolshevik propaganda. Makhno himself, once in exile bitterly denied any antisemitism on his own part or that his men carried pogroms. Someone with more knowledge here should comment. As this is also a kind of thing that can make the article grow unnecessarily it is also a good illustration as to why this whole section should essentially be its own article, per #1 above. radek ( talk) 20:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
An editor has repeatedly attempted to argue that Lenin was a Jew by analogy with Harrison Ford.
Ford is recognized as a Jew because his mother was a Jew. On the other hand, Maria Ulyanova was not a Jew — her mother was not a Jew, nor was Maria a convert to Judaism. The fact tha Maria's father was a Jew (by way of matrilineal descent) doesn't change that.
Someone might object that “Jew” ought to be defined so that partrilineal descent and matrilineal descent counted equally, but saying (or even somehow proving) that things ought to be some way doesn't make them so. — SlamDiego ←T 21:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is in the category "Cause of death disputed", but the article doesn't appear to mention what the dispute is, if there is in fact any. Should it be removed from this category, or is there a legitimate dispute about the cause of death that should be mentioned? norm77 ( talk) 21:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
His father was Mordvin from one of Mordvin Uljanin villages. When moved to Simbirsk changed his name to Uljanoff. His mother was Volga German with fixed Kalmuk and Swedish roots. Where are the Jewish roots? Please do not try to make Jew of him in every corner. Thanks. This is proved in his own words to his friend Oskar Enberg who spend the exile time with him in the same village when both were deported to exile near Krasnojarsk in Siberia. This is well known in many written Finnish sources. Oskar held even the Orthodox wedding crown above Krupskaja´s head in their wedding seremony and later Krupskaja´s mother noted in her diary, "Oskar with his spendind sence of humor safed the whole ceremony to be a wedding instead of funerals." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.197.222 ( talk) 11:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Pure nonsence that the German trains, despite on going World War in 1917, did not run on time. About 90 per cent run on time. The sealed train carrying Uljanin and his croup through Germany was ahead of its scheduled time when arriving to Sassnitz. The passenger coach where Uljanin travelled had its doors locked inside Germany. When pulled into Sassnitz - Trelleborg train ferry its doors were opened. In Sweden Uljanin´s coach was coupled onto ordinary Trelleborg - Malmö - Stockholm express train. North of Stockholm to Haparanda he travelled on Stockholm - Haparanda ordinary express train. In The Grand Duchy of Finland over journey from Tornio to Valkeasaari (Beloostrov) (- Petrograd) he travelled in ordinary express train, having meal in the evening on restaurant car between Kemi and Oulu. Next morning he had his breakfast between Haapamäki and Tampere and made public speech at Riihimäki junction station. The last 41 km the Tornio - Petrograd express train (with Finnish locomotive and rolling stock) run over the Russian soil through North Ingermanland. The American built 4-6-0 locomotive, Finland´s State Railways Nr. 293 (Richmond Works 2991 / 1900) hauling the express train from Viipuri to Petrograd was driven by locomotive driver Hugo Jalava who helped also later Uljanin out from Petrograd, arrived even on time (do you want the scheduled arriving time?) to Finland Station in Petrograd where Uljanin made his speech to Petrograder. He was helped to the roof of then few running cab automobiles outside station building. In fact, this locomotive was presented after receiving full repairs at Hyvinkää Works in 1957 to Soviet Union and is still preserved at St.Petersburg Finlandski Vokzal. Pehaps it is better to trust the people who eye-witnessed the whole episode than to the myths which appeared later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.197.222 ( talk) 13:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
User 84.69.119.254 (and other associated ip addresses), you're in violation of the 3RR. Furthermore, your use of multiple, anonymous, IP addresses constitutes sock puppetry. On top of that you have made personal insults when making some of the changes. You also have tried to disguise your edits - changing "Lenin's stance on anti-Semitism" to "Lenin's emancipation of the Jews" - by acting like you're making non controversial edits in other parts of the article. Strangely enough, right before you revert the article somehow manages to get vandalized by anonymous users with an UK ip address just by coincidence and then you claim to revert vandalism when in fact you're actually reverting non-vandalism edits you don't like. I know, I know, I should assume good faith, but you've pretty much eroded that. As I stated above, I actually think the whole relevant section belongs in a separate article but in the spirit of compromise have left it in and merely changed the title to something NPOV and less hyperbolic. Since you continue to engage in uncooperative behavior however, I see no reason to continue in being nice. If you keep reverting I will simply remove the section, per tag. And no, you did not change the title to something "more historically accurate". You changed it to something blatantly POV. I would also be quite happy to have an administrator look at this matter and even lock down this page if this continues. radek ( talk) 16:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
What the hey are you talking about? radek ( talk) 18:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have just restored all the material Radek has mass deleted without warning:
"Lenin's emancipation of the Jews The chaotic years of World War I, the February and October Revolutions, and the Civil War were fertile ground for the antisemitism that was endemic to tsarist Russia. During the war, Jews were accused of sympathizing with Germany and often persecuted. Russian anti-semitism continued even after the lifting of official anti-Jewish restrictions by the February regime and the Bolsheviks. Pogroms were unleashed throughout the Civil War, perpetrated by virtually every competing faction, from anarchists, to Polish and Ukrainian nationalists to the Red and White Armies. Continuing the policy of the Bolsheviks before the Revolution, Lenin and the Bolshevik Party strongly condemned the pogroms, including official denunciations in 1918 by the Council of People's Commissars. Opposition to the pogroms and to manifestations of Russian anti-semitism in this era were complicated by both the official bolshevik policy of assimilationism towards all national and religious minorities, and concerns about overemphasizing Jewish concerns for fear of exacerbating popular anti-semitism, as the White forces were openly identifying the Bolshevik regime with Jews. [1] [2] [3]
Lenin was intrigued with technology and in 1919 recorded eight of his speeches on gramophone records. Seven were later re-recorded and put on sale in the Khrushchev era. Significantly the one which was suppressed outlined Lenin’s feelings on anti-Semitism: [4]
“ | The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. … Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. … It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations… Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers… Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations. [5] | ” |
Lenin was supported by the Labour Zionist ( Poalei Zion) movement, then under the leadership of Marxist theorist Ber Borochov, which was fighting for the creation of a Jewish workers' state in Palestine and also participated in the October Revolution (and in the Soviet political scene afterwards until being banned by Stalin in 1928). While Lenin remained opposed to outward forms of anti-semitism (and all forms of racism), allowing Jewish people to rise to the highest offices in both party and state, certain historians such as Dmitri Volkogonov argue that the record of his government in this regard was highly uneven. A former official Soviet historian turned staunch anti-communist, Volkogonov claims that Lenin was aware of pogroms carried out by units of the Red Army during the war with Poland, though the whole issue was effectively ignored. Volkogonov writes that “While condemning anti-Semitism in general, Lenin was unable to analyze, let alone eradicate, its prevalence in Soviet society”. [6] Likewise, the hostility of the Soviet regime towards all religion made no exception for Judaism, and the 1921 campaign against religion saw the seizure of many synagogues (whether this should be regarded as anti-Semitism is a matter of definition since Orthodox churches received the same treatment).
However, according to Jewish historian Zvi Gitelman: “Never before in Russian history — and never subsequently has a government made such an effort to uproot and stamp out anti-Semitism”. [7]"
Colin, in the light of your numerous personal insults (most of them in Edit summaries, not on this talk page) and your consistent failure to Wikipedia:Assume good faith on my part, your complaining about my calling your edits vandalism is absurd. Furthermore, I have explained my edits on this talk page numerous times. You have not explained yours, but rather have questioned my motivations and imagined my "ideology". My reasons for removing the material are pretty much the same as those indicated above by other users. Additionally, once again, allow me to point out that the relevant portion is a *word for word copy* of material found at History of the Jews in Russia - an issue which you have not addressed even once. You have also repeatedly removed a 'merge' tag placed there by myself and other editors, which constitutes a clear case of vandalism. I have already contacted an administrator and requested a third opinion. radek ( talk) 15:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Here is another lie:
A third example of a bad faith lie is:
But maybe truth doesn't matter to you? Just POV pushing, wikilawyering and harassing and personally attacking good faith, constructive editors who know something about the subject? Once you have got rid of them you will be free to spread your anti-Leninist hate campaign POV to the benighted multitude without hinderance and get your Ronald Reagan anti-Communist of the year award whilst making love to your Margaret Thatcher rubber doll. Colin4C ( talk) 22:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please. Continue. radek ( talk) 23:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC) And just so it doesn't get lost in the internet ether, here are Colin's previous comments, which he chose to edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Vladimir_Lenin&direction=prev&oldid=237598064 Apparently he thought bringing a M.Thatcher rubber doll into this discussion was more appropriate and mature than accusing me of helping Stalin with the Doctor's Plot. I really don't know what to say, except to reiterate my comment above: What the hey are you talking about? radek ( talk) 23:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Truth - I am not the only objector and I do not have any sockpuppets.
Truth - I have never removed the merge tag, check edit history.
Truth - there is no concensus to delete the material. The only person deleting the material is Radek. Colin4C ( talk) 06:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
All of this and more is in the main Hitler article - not in a peripheral one. Colin4C ( talk) 19:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Nazism was/is defined in large part by its anti-semitism; Communism was/is not. Proportional amounts of information should be used. Colin, you might have a point, and I applaud your effort to get the word out, but isn't it something you can say (summarize) in one or two sentences? The passages you want in the article are simply too long and do not seem on-point. -- Chrisknop ( talk) 08:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Please note that as plagiarism of copyright material is not allowed on the the wikipedia and that I have therefore reverted material which is taken word for word from a book without using quotation marks. See Wikipedia:Copyright problems. Colin4C ( talk) 19:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Please note that a dedicated edit warrior is needed to censor this valid referenced material, three times a day for the next three months, at least, because it reveals Lenin in too good a light. The question of anti-Semitism was very important in Russian history, but American capitalist propaganda is the main priority here. The party line to follow is that "the White massacres of Jews were entirely unimportant and that besides everybody was doing it". Hundreds and thousands of murdered men, and Jewish women and children being tortured and raped was just high spirits on the part of the White freedom fighters and should never be compared to Hitler and the Nazis! The only evil people were the Communists. Here is the offending material:
Please delete at will. Note also that according to the new wikipedia definition whimsical mass deletions of other editor's hard work in favor of your own personal POV is never be classed as vandalism. The true vandals are those that painstakingly add referenced valid material to the wikipedia and put a lot of hard work into it. Colin4C ( talk) 20:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
There are many problems with the section titled "Red Terror." To start, it does not entirely relate to the subject at hand. This article is a biography of a particular Russian politician while the section in concern is an aspect of the civil war in Russia. Second, its emphasis is disproportionate. A detail of the civil war in Russia should not occupy one-fifth of the article of a man whose political career spanned nearly 30 years. Wikipedia is supposed to give a broad general survey of the subject rather than cherrypicking and emphasizing a few details. Thus, I have rewritten the section to give just a brief summary of the situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.210.101 ( talk) 19:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Red Terror is certainly an important aspect of Lenin's life. That's like saying that Robespierre's time on the Committee of Public Safety or his role in the Terror are given undue weight because, you know, the guy did many other things besides. This is a spurious and empty complaint. radek ( talk) 04:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I have removed Andrew and Gellately because neither of these authors specialize in the subject at hand. Andrew's book is about the KGB while Gellately specializes in German history. Neither of these reflect scholarly consensus. Nor is there much room for Pipes in this article because the scholarly community has extensively criticized his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.210.101 ( talk) 19:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove references without hashing it out on talk page here. All three of these (Andrew, Gellately and Pipes) are respected historians. Yes, SOME in the scholarly community have criticized some of their work and findings but that's how academia operates (and of course Pipes and others have criticized their critics back). They are all considered reliable sources. In particular, in regard to Andrew and Gellately not being specialists in Lenin - well, obviously various topics in history overlap. The history of KGB most certainly does as does the relevant portion of German history. If you have OTHER (reliable) sources which contradict the statements made by these authors feel free to include them and cite them. But please do not remove these. radek ( talk) 05:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
It should also be noted that a quick look at user 204.102.210.101's contrib history reveals that aside from removing sources s/he doesn't like from and adding pov statements into numerous articles (all of which changes must than be repeatedly reverted by conscientious editors) at least a few of them are just simple straightforward vandalisms of pages s/he doesn't like (for whatever reason). For example, vandalizing the article on the Armenian flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Flag_of_Armenia&diff=prev&oldid=227439587 As this user is basically a known vandal I suggest his changes get reverted on sight. radek ( talk) 05:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Article states, that he has ancestors of many nationalities, but his father was by most kalmyk.
He was one of 100 most important guys of 20th century, according to a criticized list done from an US-centric perspective. I think it can remain in the article, but being trivia it doesn't fit in the intro, so it should be moved to some advanced position in the article. Also: it serves as an opinion painted straight onto my nose, an opinion that I would rather prefer to come to by myself: it's slightly un-NPOV-ish, although it formally fulfills the NPOV policy. Said: Rursus ( ☻) 14:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Please remove the absurd claim that the fifth Collected Works was systematically censored. True it is not complete but you can find a large amount of the excluded material in e.g. Leninskii Sborniki of the 1920s. Figes is in no sense a Lenin expert. Very little 'suppressed' has been found since 1991. See e.g. Pipes The Unknown Lenin. This collection shows how little was kept from public view. Scarcely evidence for a systematic suppression of Lenin's thought, even if his precise views were a politically sensitive matter in the old USSR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.230.154.175 ( talk) 23:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, "Russian Soviet Socialist Republic" should read either "Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic" (this being a proper noun) or "Russian Soviet republic"/"Russian socialist republic"/etc. There's no such thing as the Russian SSR, even if the reader will know what is being talked about. 118.90.15.129 ( talk) 10:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The section is too long and goes back and forth. It should be summarized and reduced in length. Biographies about Lenin do not devote one-fifth of the content to a period in 1918 spanning a few months. Kasernewinkt ( talk) 00:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Rather than reverting it 6 times, why don't you wait until a discussion has began. You can't just revert things because of your opinion. Get some other editorial support. By the way, for breaking 3RR, expect to be banned. Luna Rain HowL Cry 01:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree it's too long. Let's create a draft here. Brown99 ( talk) 04:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to start a discussion on the reliability of Robert Gellately, a historian who wrote many controversial books. Under Section: Lenin and the Red Terror, he is considered to be an unreliable source. Opinions? Anyone? Luna Rain HowL Cry 04:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I couldn't find any information about that.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
In the Books 'The Unseen Hand' and 'Wall street and The Bolshevik Revolution'it is clearly demonstrated to me that Jewish support of comunism was mostly involuntary. The second mentioned work uses only mainstream sources;US congressional Record and the NY Times, et cetera to illustrate the vast sums expended to defeat the White and the Green Armies; as the super-rich Mellons, Rockefellers and such were afraid of the Green Army's 250,000 men establishing a new free republic even less authoritarian than the USA. Such a new republic and a rise of freedom and individualism in Russia would have negated the decades that monopolists had worked to cartelize what industries and markets could be controlled in the atmosphere of laissez-faire which had contributed so much to prosperity and power for America. Only after the Scottish and AngloSaxon power brokers had threatened the Jews did they mostly accede to the 'requests' to help the Reds destroy Russian chances for freedom. To this day Rssia has suffered the ill effects of their slavery under the religion of communism. Pollution is rampant in the commons destroyed by incompetents and tyrants. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.37.40.186 ( talk) 02:22, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
From my readings, I am a little unsure. How was Lenin perceived as a leader from the general public? Had he have been around for much longer (and not died) I believe he would've been like Stalin, however his body was pickled and perserved. My understanding is that he wanted a regular funarel and he is still considered a 'hero' today. Can anyone comment on this and maybe clear it up as I can't find anything that makes this clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.234.222.217 ( talk) 06:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Would the editor who put the tags in the above section like to discuss his motivations in so-doing here on the Talk page? 16:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
1. I agree with 84.68.245.219 above about the overall relevance of this topic to this particular article. A separate article may be more appropriate. 2. The word "emancipation" is inaccurate and inappropriate. It smacks of non-NPOV. More importantly it is inapplicable here - to emancipate means to free from slavery, bondage, etc. While Lenin might have been anti-anti-Semitic he did not free the Russian Jews from slavery, lead them out of Egypt or anything like that. Hence "Lenin's opposition to antisemitism" would be better... 3. except that the body of the text does not unambiguously support even that phrasing with references to some historians viewing Lenin's record in this matter as "highly uneven", admission that the Red Army also carried out pogroms and so on. 4. The tag to "anarchists" in this section links to Nestor Makhno. It's been awhile since I did the reading but I was under the impression that the allegations against Makhno were unsupported and essentially a product of Bolshevik propaganda. Makhno himself, once in exile bitterly denied any antisemitism on his own part or that his men carried pogroms. Someone with more knowledge here should comment. As this is also a kind of thing that can make the article grow unnecessarily it is also a good illustration as to why this whole section should essentially be its own article, per #1 above. radek ( talk) 20:52, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
An editor has repeatedly attempted to argue that Lenin was a Jew by analogy with Harrison Ford.
Ford is recognized as a Jew because his mother was a Jew. On the other hand, Maria Ulyanova was not a Jew — her mother was not a Jew, nor was Maria a convert to Judaism. The fact tha Maria's father was a Jew (by way of matrilineal descent) doesn't change that.
Someone might object that “Jew” ought to be defined so that partrilineal descent and matrilineal descent counted equally, but saying (or even somehow proving) that things ought to be some way doesn't make them so. — SlamDiego ←T 21:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
This article is in the category "Cause of death disputed", but the article doesn't appear to mention what the dispute is, if there is in fact any. Should it be removed from this category, or is there a legitimate dispute about the cause of death that should be mentioned? norm77 ( talk) 21:30, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
His father was Mordvin from one of Mordvin Uljanin villages. When moved to Simbirsk changed his name to Uljanoff. His mother was Volga German with fixed Kalmuk and Swedish roots. Where are the Jewish roots? Please do not try to make Jew of him in every corner. Thanks. This is proved in his own words to his friend Oskar Enberg who spend the exile time with him in the same village when both were deported to exile near Krasnojarsk in Siberia. This is well known in many written Finnish sources. Oskar held even the Orthodox wedding crown above Krupskaja´s head in their wedding seremony and later Krupskaja´s mother noted in her diary, "Oskar with his spendind sence of humor safed the whole ceremony to be a wedding instead of funerals." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.197.222 ( talk) 11:20, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
Pure nonsence that the German trains, despite on going World War in 1917, did not run on time. About 90 per cent run on time. The sealed train carrying Uljanin and his croup through Germany was ahead of its scheduled time when arriving to Sassnitz. The passenger coach where Uljanin travelled had its doors locked inside Germany. When pulled into Sassnitz - Trelleborg train ferry its doors were opened. In Sweden Uljanin´s coach was coupled onto ordinary Trelleborg - Malmö - Stockholm express train. North of Stockholm to Haparanda he travelled on Stockholm - Haparanda ordinary express train. In The Grand Duchy of Finland over journey from Tornio to Valkeasaari (Beloostrov) (- Petrograd) he travelled in ordinary express train, having meal in the evening on restaurant car between Kemi and Oulu. Next morning he had his breakfast between Haapamäki and Tampere and made public speech at Riihimäki junction station. The last 41 km the Tornio - Petrograd express train (with Finnish locomotive and rolling stock) run over the Russian soil through North Ingermanland. The American built 4-6-0 locomotive, Finland´s State Railways Nr. 293 (Richmond Works 2991 / 1900) hauling the express train from Viipuri to Petrograd was driven by locomotive driver Hugo Jalava who helped also later Uljanin out from Petrograd, arrived even on time (do you want the scheduled arriving time?) to Finland Station in Petrograd where Uljanin made his speech to Petrograder. He was helped to the roof of then few running cab automobiles outside station building. In fact, this locomotive was presented after receiving full repairs at Hyvinkää Works in 1957 to Soviet Union and is still preserved at St.Petersburg Finlandski Vokzal. Pehaps it is better to trust the people who eye-witnessed the whole episode than to the myths which appeared later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.197.222 ( talk) 13:17, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
User 84.69.119.254 (and other associated ip addresses), you're in violation of the 3RR. Furthermore, your use of multiple, anonymous, IP addresses constitutes sock puppetry. On top of that you have made personal insults when making some of the changes. You also have tried to disguise your edits - changing "Lenin's stance on anti-Semitism" to "Lenin's emancipation of the Jews" - by acting like you're making non controversial edits in other parts of the article. Strangely enough, right before you revert the article somehow manages to get vandalized by anonymous users with an UK ip address just by coincidence and then you claim to revert vandalism when in fact you're actually reverting non-vandalism edits you don't like. I know, I know, I should assume good faith, but you've pretty much eroded that. As I stated above, I actually think the whole relevant section belongs in a separate article but in the spirit of compromise have left it in and merely changed the title to something NPOV and less hyperbolic. Since you continue to engage in uncooperative behavior however, I see no reason to continue in being nice. If you keep reverting I will simply remove the section, per tag. And no, you did not change the title to something "more historically accurate". You changed it to something blatantly POV. I would also be quite happy to have an administrator look at this matter and even lock down this page if this continues. radek ( talk) 16:54, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
What the hey are you talking about? radek ( talk) 18:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I have just restored all the material Radek has mass deleted without warning:
"Lenin's emancipation of the Jews The chaotic years of World War I, the February and October Revolutions, and the Civil War were fertile ground for the antisemitism that was endemic to tsarist Russia. During the war, Jews were accused of sympathizing with Germany and often persecuted. Russian anti-semitism continued even after the lifting of official anti-Jewish restrictions by the February regime and the Bolsheviks. Pogroms were unleashed throughout the Civil War, perpetrated by virtually every competing faction, from anarchists, to Polish and Ukrainian nationalists to the Red and White Armies. Continuing the policy of the Bolsheviks before the Revolution, Lenin and the Bolshevik Party strongly condemned the pogroms, including official denunciations in 1918 by the Council of People's Commissars. Opposition to the pogroms and to manifestations of Russian anti-semitism in this era were complicated by both the official bolshevik policy of assimilationism towards all national and religious minorities, and concerns about overemphasizing Jewish concerns for fear of exacerbating popular anti-semitism, as the White forces were openly identifying the Bolshevik regime with Jews. [1] [2] [3]
Lenin was intrigued with technology and in 1919 recorded eight of his speeches on gramophone records. Seven were later re-recorded and put on sale in the Khrushchev era. Significantly the one which was suppressed outlined Lenin’s feelings on anti-Semitism: [4]
“ | The Tsarist police, in alliance with the landowners and the capitalists, organized pogroms against the Jews. The landowners and capitalists tried to divert the hatred of the workers and peasants who were tortured by want against the Jews. … Only the most ignorant and downtrodden people can believe the lies and slander that are spread about the Jews. … It is not the Jews who are the enemies of the working people. The enemies of the workers are the capitalists of all countries. Among the Jews there are working people, and they form the majority. They are our brothers, who, like us, are oppressed by capital; they are our comrades in the struggle for socialism. Among the Jews there are kulaks, exploiters and capitalists, just as there are among the Russians, and among people of all nations… Rich Jews, like rich Russians, and the rich in all countries, are in alliance to oppress, crush, rob and disunite the workers… Shame on accursed Tsarism which tortured and persecuted the Jews. Shame on those who foment hatred towards the Jews, who foment hatred towards other nations. [5] | ” |
Lenin was supported by the Labour Zionist ( Poalei Zion) movement, then under the leadership of Marxist theorist Ber Borochov, which was fighting for the creation of a Jewish workers' state in Palestine and also participated in the October Revolution (and in the Soviet political scene afterwards until being banned by Stalin in 1928). While Lenin remained opposed to outward forms of anti-semitism (and all forms of racism), allowing Jewish people to rise to the highest offices in both party and state, certain historians such as Dmitri Volkogonov argue that the record of his government in this regard was highly uneven. A former official Soviet historian turned staunch anti-communist, Volkogonov claims that Lenin was aware of pogroms carried out by units of the Red Army during the war with Poland, though the whole issue was effectively ignored. Volkogonov writes that “While condemning anti-Semitism in general, Lenin was unable to analyze, let alone eradicate, its prevalence in Soviet society”. [6] Likewise, the hostility of the Soviet regime towards all religion made no exception for Judaism, and the 1921 campaign against religion saw the seizure of many synagogues (whether this should be regarded as anti-Semitism is a matter of definition since Orthodox churches received the same treatment).
However, according to Jewish historian Zvi Gitelman: “Never before in Russian history — and never subsequently has a government made such an effort to uproot and stamp out anti-Semitism”. [7]"
Colin, in the light of your numerous personal insults (most of them in Edit summaries, not on this talk page) and your consistent failure to Wikipedia:Assume good faith on my part, your complaining about my calling your edits vandalism is absurd. Furthermore, I have explained my edits on this talk page numerous times. You have not explained yours, but rather have questioned my motivations and imagined my "ideology". My reasons for removing the material are pretty much the same as those indicated above by other users. Additionally, once again, allow me to point out that the relevant portion is a *word for word copy* of material found at History of the Jews in Russia - an issue which you have not addressed even once. You have also repeatedly removed a 'merge' tag placed there by myself and other editors, which constitutes a clear case of vandalism. I have already contacted an administrator and requested a third opinion. radek ( talk) 15:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Here is another lie:
A third example of a bad faith lie is:
But maybe truth doesn't matter to you? Just POV pushing, wikilawyering and harassing and personally attacking good faith, constructive editors who know something about the subject? Once you have got rid of them you will be free to spread your anti-Leninist hate campaign POV to the benighted multitude without hinderance and get your Ronald Reagan anti-Communist of the year award whilst making love to your Margaret Thatcher rubber doll. Colin4C ( talk) 22:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Please. Continue. radek ( talk) 23:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC) And just so it doesn't get lost in the internet ether, here are Colin's previous comments, which he chose to edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Talk:Vladimir_Lenin&direction=prev&oldid=237598064 Apparently he thought bringing a M.Thatcher rubber doll into this discussion was more appropriate and mature than accusing me of helping Stalin with the Doctor's Plot. I really don't know what to say, except to reiterate my comment above: What the hey are you talking about? radek ( talk) 23:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Truth - I am not the only objector and I do not have any sockpuppets.
Truth - I have never removed the merge tag, check edit history.
Truth - there is no concensus to delete the material. The only person deleting the material is Radek. Colin4C ( talk) 06:38, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
All of this and more is in the main Hitler article - not in a peripheral one. Colin4C ( talk) 19:22, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Nazism was/is defined in large part by its anti-semitism; Communism was/is not. Proportional amounts of information should be used. Colin, you might have a point, and I applaud your effort to get the word out, but isn't it something you can say (summarize) in one or two sentences? The passages you want in the article are simply too long and do not seem on-point. -- Chrisknop ( talk) 08:22, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Please note that as plagiarism of copyright material is not allowed on the the wikipedia and that I have therefore reverted material which is taken word for word from a book without using quotation marks. See Wikipedia:Copyright problems. Colin4C ( talk) 19:56, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Please note that a dedicated edit warrior is needed to censor this valid referenced material, three times a day for the next three months, at least, because it reveals Lenin in too good a light. The question of anti-Semitism was very important in Russian history, but American capitalist propaganda is the main priority here. The party line to follow is that "the White massacres of Jews were entirely unimportant and that besides everybody was doing it". Hundreds and thousands of murdered men, and Jewish women and children being tortured and raped was just high spirits on the part of the White freedom fighters and should never be compared to Hitler and the Nazis! The only evil people were the Communists. Here is the offending material:
Please delete at will. Note also that according to the new wikipedia definition whimsical mass deletions of other editor's hard work in favor of your own personal POV is never be classed as vandalism. The true vandals are those that painstakingly add referenced valid material to the wikipedia and put a lot of hard work into it. Colin4C ( talk) 20:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
There are many problems with the section titled "Red Terror." To start, it does not entirely relate to the subject at hand. This article is a biography of a particular Russian politician while the section in concern is an aspect of the civil war in Russia. Second, its emphasis is disproportionate. A detail of the civil war in Russia should not occupy one-fifth of the article of a man whose political career spanned nearly 30 years. Wikipedia is supposed to give a broad general survey of the subject rather than cherrypicking and emphasizing a few details. Thus, I have rewritten the section to give just a brief summary of the situation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.210.101 ( talk) 19:03, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Red Terror is certainly an important aspect of Lenin's life. That's like saying that Robespierre's time on the Committee of Public Safety or his role in the Terror are given undue weight because, you know, the guy did many other things besides. This is a spurious and empty complaint. radek ( talk) 04:55, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
I have removed Andrew and Gellately because neither of these authors specialize in the subject at hand. Andrew's book is about the KGB while Gellately specializes in German history. Neither of these reflect scholarly consensus. Nor is there much room for Pipes in this article because the scholarly community has extensively criticized his work. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.102.210.101 ( talk) 19:20, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
Please do not remove references without hashing it out on talk page here. All three of these (Andrew, Gellately and Pipes) are respected historians. Yes, SOME in the scholarly community have criticized some of their work and findings but that's how academia operates (and of course Pipes and others have criticized their critics back). They are all considered reliable sources. In particular, in regard to Andrew and Gellately not being specialists in Lenin - well, obviously various topics in history overlap. The history of KGB most certainly does as does the relevant portion of German history. If you have OTHER (reliable) sources which contradict the statements made by these authors feel free to include them and cite them. But please do not remove these. radek ( talk) 05:09, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
It should also be noted that a quick look at user 204.102.210.101's contrib history reveals that aside from removing sources s/he doesn't like from and adding pov statements into numerous articles (all of which changes must than be repeatedly reverted by conscientious editors) at least a few of them are just simple straightforward vandalisms of pages s/he doesn't like (for whatever reason). For example, vandalizing the article on the Armenian flag: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Flag_of_Armenia&diff=prev&oldid=227439587 As this user is basically a known vandal I suggest his changes get reverted on sight. radek ( talk) 05:28, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
Article states, that he has ancestors of many nationalities, but his father was by most kalmyk.
He was one of 100 most important guys of 20th century, according to a criticized list done from an US-centric perspective. I think it can remain in the article, but being trivia it doesn't fit in the intro, so it should be moved to some advanced position in the article. Also: it serves as an opinion painted straight onto my nose, an opinion that I would rather prefer to come to by myself: it's slightly un-NPOV-ish, although it formally fulfills the NPOV policy. Said: Rursus ( ☻) 14:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Please remove the absurd claim that the fifth Collected Works was systematically censored. True it is not complete but you can find a large amount of the excluded material in e.g. Leninskii Sborniki of the 1920s. Figes is in no sense a Lenin expert. Very little 'suppressed' has been found since 1991. See e.g. Pipes The Unknown Lenin. This collection shows how little was kept from public view. Scarcely evidence for a systematic suppression of Lenin's thought, even if his precise views were a politically sensitive matter in the old USSR. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.230.154.175 ( talk) 23:21, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
In the first paragraph, "Russian Soviet Socialist Republic" should read either "Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic" (this being a proper noun) or "Russian Soviet republic"/"Russian socialist republic"/etc. There's no such thing as the Russian SSR, even if the reader will know what is being talked about. 118.90.15.129 ( talk) 10:43, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The section is too long and goes back and forth. It should be summarized and reduced in length. Biographies about Lenin do not devote one-fifth of the content to a period in 1918 spanning a few months. Kasernewinkt ( talk) 00:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Rather than reverting it 6 times, why don't you wait until a discussion has began. You can't just revert things because of your opinion. Get some other editorial support. By the way, for breaking 3RR, expect to be banned. Luna Rain HowL Cry 01:42, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
I agree it's too long. Let's create a draft here. Brown99 ( talk) 04:55, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to start a discussion on the reliability of Robert Gellately, a historian who wrote many controversial books. Under Section: Lenin and the Red Terror, he is considered to be an unreliable source. Opinions? Anyone? Luna Rain HowL Cry 04:49, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
I couldn't find any information about that.
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