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The introductory paragraph describes VNC as a "system", but it's not clear whether that system is a protocol/standard or a software application. Obviously both the protocol and implementations exist, but is "VNC" the protocol or the application? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScribeMonk ( talk • contribs) 05:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
AFAIK VNC has limitations in comparison with Microsoft RDP do not allowing forwarding audio and having multiple sessions, maybe it should be noted in article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.92 ( talk • contribs) 25 August 2005
Also, worth mentioning NX/FreeNX, which compresses the X protocol transparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardNeill ( talk • contribs) 18 October 2005
We are having a peer review for remote administration tool Back Orifice. We're hoping that you could join the discussion and give us some ideas, how to improve the article further. -- Easyas12c 19:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please don't remove text or links from this wiki unless the text or links are inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbostedor ( talk • contribs)
If you'd like to start a campaign to remove all links from all subjects on wikipedia, be my guest but until then, please leave this topic alone. - George MacDonald - 20 January 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.81.74 ( talk • contribs)
I've posted this on RFC to see if we can get some more opinions on the matter. AlistairMcMillan 15:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Guys,
-- Sbostedor 16:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to TightVNC, but it quickly got removed by Nathanrdotcom saying that "commercial links — or links to your own private websites" is not allowed. I find this very strange. www.tightvnc.com is hardly my private website. It's not very commercial either - you can't buy anything! Speaking of commercial sites, though, please note that RealVNC IS commercial. As a side note, I don't understand how it could be called more "official" than other implementations. I think there are many valid reasons to link to the TightVNC web site. TightVNC is highly popular - it has been selected as "Project of the month" on Sourceforge and is the 9th most popular project on Freshmeat.net! RealVNC, as a comparision, is on place 119. -- PeterAstrand 08:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that User:Sbostedor is Steve Bostedor, owner and founder of Bozteck that produces vncscan.
Please check these editors contributions. AlistairMcMillan 15:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like sbostedor is a victim of discrimination by Alistair. Who made Alistar the King of the Wiki, anyways? You need to get a life, bro! VNC is much bigger than your own little desires. Why isn't he complaining about any of the other commercial software links? Maybe because he either works for one of them or he has stock in a competing product? This all sounds very fishy to me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.77.109.142 ( talk • contribs)
This is stupid, guys. It looks like everyone got what they wanted so just walk away. alistair, I thought that you had a point until I see you persist at being a total jerk on here. You're ruining this website. Please leave. I've seen this requested by a few different IP addresses so far so catch a hint where you're not wanted.
I will delete this shortly. It does this topic no good to see a bunch of bickering about stupid shit.
-- 12.111.239.3 23:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Guys, Please stop this insanity! I believe that Alistair just wants to do his part to keep wikipedia from turning into a spam fest. After putting myself in his shoes, I completely understand why he jumped on this so strongly. I've removed the commercial software links and I believe that the case is closed here. Please leave him alone and move on. Thank you -- Sbostedor 09:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Move the RealVNC link down to the "external links" section, and get rid of everything else in the list of implementations. We're not here to try to replace the Open Directory Project. -- Carnildo 06:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
VNC seems to have much in common with the X protocol, but there's nothing in the VNC article about it. Should there be a discussion about the similarities and differences? (I know little or nothing about VNC, though I do know a little about X.) Wocky 09:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Need some links in this article about how to VNC. And VNC over SSH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.48.105.242 ( talk • contribs) 14:25 06 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm a mediator from the mediation cabal and I saw the start of a filing. Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-05-02 TightVNC link on VNC page A few comments:
I'm going to close this case out. If after really thinking about it this seems worth doing then I (or someone else) will be happy to mediate, but there hasn't been any real effort at dispute resolution prior to this case being opened. jbolden1517 Talk 17:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
"As with any server software, if the port used by this service is explicitly blocked by a firewall it is practically impossible to break into the service. In other words a network administrator has to enable firewalling for 5901 on the local router in order to prevent access from outside the LAN."
While such a security measure would disallow direct access to the service (from the internet), Any other service which is compromised, which can be accessed from the internet and has access to the LAN, would defeat such a measure (Especially SSH or HTTPS (eg via a compromised CGI program), as encrypted connections are hidden even from IDS and other security systems involving packet inspection systems, assuming an IDS was configured to detect VNC), and then there's always the option of getting a direct ethernet connection the the LAN with a bit of social engineering. Therefore, "practically impossible" is incorrect.
It's also lacking a citation. Hydroksyde 03:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.
<div class="references-small"><references/></div>
.
[5]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Bwhack 15:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
References
This is with regards to the request by William Graham to merge VNC Loop into this article. It must be noted that they used to be merged, but VNC Loop was separated into its own article. -- Amit 03:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Users unconditionally supporting the merger:
Users opposing the merger:
So what happened to the VNC loop page? it's gone and not integrated into this article either!? 165.230.46.159 23:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:VERIFY is one of the three content policies of Wikipedia. It clearly states "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources." It later clarifies "reliable sources": "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Of the three types of sources you mention above (forums, personal pages and Flickr), do you really think any of them come close to meeting that standard?
Also I'm sorry but I don't think there is a "user consensus should over-rule WP:VERIFY" policy, perhaps you could try proposing it somewhere. AlistairMcMillan 01:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Is censoring the screenshot really nessessary? Hundreds of articles on Wikipedia contain screenshots of copyrighted software. I didn't know it was a big problem. 72.43.196.123 21:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
How about a screen shot in English? 69.177.106.166 ( talk) 20:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Could someone perhaps add an entry to this article explaining how to also get remote sound in addition to the graphics please? -- Rebroad 14:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I just started the RealVNC article, because people don't think it belongs here (Virtual Network Computing), but I think it still deserves mention on Wikipedia, especially if UltraVNC has its own article. Feel free to improve it. -- Spoon! 04:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The external links in this section are inappropriate per WP:EL and WP:NOT#LINK. I'm removing the links, leaving the red links to what may become real articles. -- Ronz 21:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I came to the VNC page seeking details on how it works, specifically in regards to which protocols are commonly used, and how they are implemented. How is raw scanline data formatted? How does hextile work? These are things I want to know, and I think they are relevant. Is this the correct place to find this information? If it is, then I hope somebody more experienced than myself can contribute. Otherwise, I will do my best to add to this article. iridium 20:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I created comparison of remote desktop software today before I had seen the comparison of VNC software section. I think a comparison of all types of remote desktop software would be more useful to most potential users than the narrow comparison of VNC software, (even if my initial attempt is rubbish and clearly should be redesigned), so I propose this merge. Of course we could try to have both, but that would be redundant and could lead to inconsistency and duplication of effort.— greenrd 01:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and completed this merger, as it seems sensible. -- MaTrIx 04:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
How about a list of systems which a VNC program is available for? I'd put it on myself but I don't know which systems it's available for. Include things like Symbian OS and Windows Mobile (if they're available)
-Forlornity
87.82.6.16 20:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I last looked at this article back in early 2006 and found it useful. Today, it is the victim of so much heavy handed "correctness" that it is disorganized and difficult to follow. I find it ironic that a semi-automatic Java editor (a dead machine, in other words) is showing more common sense, flexibility and reader orientation in its suggestions than some of the folks who have worked this article over. Is there any point in my even trying to restore some order and structure or is everyone still poised to remove and delete everything? The rules are there to keep Wikepedia useful, but it seems as if all sides looked until they found a rule- or three- which permitted them to gut whatever body of text they wanted to get rid of. I'll give it a week or two and if it looks safe, I'll try to make things a bit more accessable. Panthera germanicus 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
In the introduction:
VNC was originally developed at AT&T.
In the History section:
VNC was created at the Olivetti & Oracle Research Lab, which was then owned by Olivetti and Oracle Corporation.
These seem pretty contradictionary, could someone clarify who actually made it? -- Munksgaard 18:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
In 1999 AT&T acquired the lab, and in 2002 closed down the lab's research efforts.
The only port number that is officially registered with Internet_Assigned_Numbers_Authority for use by VNC is port 5900. Mentioning other ports that could be assigned to other protocols at any time (including 5901-5906 and 5800-5806) might mislead users into trusting it is safe to use those ports, and then a port conflict could result on their system or in practice. IMHO, the main article should either only document the official port, or mention that use (abuse) of the unassigned port numbers may change or be incompatible with other things in the future. -- Cjnifty 20:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I have a question, is it possible to play games on a weak computer if the weak computer is connected to one that is capable of playing games? I would use the stronger computer to run the game and the weaker of the two to control it, although I it'd make a lot more sense if things were rendered locally, so I might be out of luck on that one. I can't try this out myself but it'd be very interesting to find out. :) 84.216.46.57 ( talk) 17:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
since Google considers VNC and RealVNC as same, and dedicated RealVNC page looks not mature yet, i'm raising this question here
Could someone please explain if commercial editions are actual GPL violations or not, given the following facts:
most probably commercial and free editions are sharing same covered code. doesnt it make commercial editions covered too? i dont see any mentioning of dual licensing on their website... -- Al Leween ( talk) 18:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Non-RealVNC commercial VNC products would likely be challenged by VNC. There are however commercial products *based* on certain aspects of the VNC or RFB protocols, but are products in their own right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.44.6.81 ( talk) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Does the line "Hamachi has been purchased by LogMeIn and is no longer freeware, though it's free for non-commercial use." in the security section add any value to the VNC article. Its true (no doubt about that) but this is not the place. It should be removed. Raoravikiran ( talk) 10:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This may be incorrect but I believe VNC was created by Bell Labs sometime in the 1980s. Whether or not this is true, the article needs historical references to support whatever is claimed. It ought to be removed otherwise, or expressed as folklore. Kernel.package ( talk) 23:41, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes you are wrong. You have missed the historical references (such as the original paper) that are linked to within the article. It does not need more proof that VNC was developed at ORL in the 1990s. 82.71.34.4 ( talk) 22:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Someone should add a list of the different VNC's available. Here are some, TightVNC, RealVNC, UltraVNC. iPad VNC viewers VNC Pocket Office Pro — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parystec ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 11 January 2013 (UTC) Sherzad ( talk) 00:09, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
"at a time when Olivetti and Oracle Corporation owned the lab" And WHEN was that? Sheesh, have you not had history in school? It's full of actual dates, unlike this article. "When Olivetti and Oracle owned the lab" tells me nothing. And especially not about when VNC was designed/invented. Pre 2002 is all I can tell from this section. jae ( talk) 21:40, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||
|
The introductory paragraph describes VNC as a "system", but it's not clear whether that system is a protocol/standard or a software application. Obviously both the protocol and implementations exist, but is "VNC" the protocol or the application? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ScribeMonk ( talk • contribs) 05:29, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
AFAIK VNC has limitations in comparison with Microsoft RDP do not allowing forwarding audio and having multiple sessions, maybe it should be noted in article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.212.29.92 ( talk • contribs) 25 August 2005
Also, worth mentioning NX/FreeNX, which compresses the X protocol transparently. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RichardNeill ( talk • contribs) 18 October 2005
We are having a peer review for remote administration tool Back Orifice. We're hoping that you could join the discussion and give us some ideas, how to improve the article further. -- Easyas12c 19:54, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
Please don't remove text or links from this wiki unless the text or links are inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbostedor ( talk • contribs)
If you'd like to start a campaign to remove all links from all subjects on wikipedia, be my guest but until then, please leave this topic alone. - George MacDonald - 20 January 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.81.74 ( talk • contribs)
I've posted this on RFC to see if we can get some more opinions on the matter. AlistairMcMillan 15:33, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Guys,
-- Sbostedor 16:30, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I added a link to TightVNC, but it quickly got removed by Nathanrdotcom saying that "commercial links — or links to your own private websites" is not allowed. I find this very strange. www.tightvnc.com is hardly my private website. It's not very commercial either - you can't buy anything! Speaking of commercial sites, though, please note that RealVNC IS commercial. As a side note, I don't understand how it could be called more "official" than other implementations. I think there are many valid reasons to link to the TightVNC web site. TightVNC is highly popular - it has been selected as "Project of the month" on Sourceforge and is the 9th most popular project on Freshmeat.net! RealVNC, as a comparision, is on place 119. -- PeterAstrand 08:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
Please note that User:Sbostedor is Steve Bostedor, owner and founder of Bozteck that produces vncscan.
Please check these editors contributions. AlistairMcMillan 15:31, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
It sounds to me like sbostedor is a victim of discrimination by Alistair. Who made Alistar the King of the Wiki, anyways? You need to get a life, bro! VNC is much bigger than your own little desires. Why isn't he complaining about any of the other commercial software links? Maybe because he either works for one of them or he has stock in a competing product? This all sounds very fishy to me! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.77.109.142 ( talk • contribs)
This is stupid, guys. It looks like everyone got what they wanted so just walk away. alistair, I thought that you had a point until I see you persist at being a total jerk on here. You're ruining this website. Please leave. I've seen this requested by a few different IP addresses so far so catch a hint where you're not wanted.
I will delete this shortly. It does this topic no good to see a bunch of bickering about stupid shit.
-- 12.111.239.3 23:41, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
Guys, Please stop this insanity! I believe that Alistair just wants to do his part to keep wikipedia from turning into a spam fest. After putting myself in his shoes, I completely understand why he jumped on this so strongly. I've removed the commercial software links and I believe that the case is closed here. Please leave him alone and move on. Thank you -- Sbostedor 09:44, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Move the RealVNC link down to the "external links" section, and get rid of everything else in the list of implementations. We're not here to try to replace the Open Directory Project. -- Carnildo 06:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
VNC seems to have much in common with the X protocol, but there's nothing in the VNC article about it. Should there be a discussion about the similarities and differences? (I know little or nothing about VNC, though I do know a little about X.) Wocky 09:44, 7 February 2006 (UTC)
Need some links in this article about how to VNC. And VNC over SSH. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.48.105.242 ( talk • contribs) 14:25 06 April 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I'm a mediator from the mediation cabal and I saw the start of a filing. Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2006-05-02 TightVNC link on VNC page A few comments:
I'm going to close this case out. If after really thinking about it this seems worth doing then I (or someone else) will be happy to mediate, but there hasn't been any real effort at dispute resolution prior to this case being opened. jbolden1517 Talk 17:50, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
"As with any server software, if the port used by this service is explicitly blocked by a firewall it is practically impossible to break into the service. In other words a network administrator has to enable firewalling for 5901 on the local router in order to prevent access from outside the LAN."
While such a security measure would disallow direct access to the service (from the internet), Any other service which is compromised, which can be accessed from the internet and has access to the LAN, would defeat such a measure (Especially SSH or HTTPS (eg via a compromised CGI program), as encrypted connections are hidden even from IDS and other security systems involving packet inspection systems, assuming an IDS was configured to detect VNC), and then there's always the option of getting a direct ethernet connection the the LAN with a bit of social engineering. Therefore, "practically impossible" is incorrect.
It's also lacking a citation. Hydroksyde 03:55, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and may or may not be accurate for the article in question.
<div class="references-small"><references/></div>
.
[5]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Bwhack 15:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
References
This is with regards to the request by William Graham to merge VNC Loop into this article. It must be noted that they used to be merged, but VNC Loop was separated into its own article. -- Amit 03:02, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Users unconditionally supporting the merger:
Users opposing the merger:
So what happened to the VNC loop page? it's gone and not integrated into this article either!? 165.230.46.159 23:04, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:VERIFY is one of the three content policies of Wikipedia. It clearly states "Articles should contain only material that has been published by reliable sources." It later clarifies "reliable sources": "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." Of the three types of sources you mention above (forums, personal pages and Flickr), do you really think any of them come close to meeting that standard?
Also I'm sorry but I don't think there is a "user consensus should over-rule WP:VERIFY" policy, perhaps you could try proposing it somewhere. AlistairMcMillan 01:54, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Is censoring the screenshot really nessessary? Hundreds of articles on Wikipedia contain screenshots of copyrighted software. I didn't know it was a big problem. 72.43.196.123 21:24, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
How about a screen shot in English? 69.177.106.166 ( talk) 20:28, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Could someone perhaps add an entry to this article explaining how to also get remote sound in addition to the graphics please? -- Rebroad 14:56, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I just started the RealVNC article, because people don't think it belongs here (Virtual Network Computing), but I think it still deserves mention on Wikipedia, especially if UltraVNC has its own article. Feel free to improve it. -- Spoon! 04:13, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The external links in this section are inappropriate per WP:EL and WP:NOT#LINK. I'm removing the links, leaving the red links to what may become real articles. -- Ronz 21:13, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
I came to the VNC page seeking details on how it works, specifically in regards to which protocols are commonly used, and how they are implemented. How is raw scanline data formatted? How does hextile work? These are things I want to know, and I think they are relevant. Is this the correct place to find this information? If it is, then I hope somebody more experienced than myself can contribute. Otherwise, I will do my best to add to this article. iridium 20:55, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I created comparison of remote desktop software today before I had seen the comparison of VNC software section. I think a comparison of all types of remote desktop software would be more useful to most potential users than the narrow comparison of VNC software, (even if my initial attempt is rubbish and clearly should be redesigned), so I propose this merge. Of course we could try to have both, but that would be redundant and could lead to inconsistency and duplication of effort.— greenrd 01:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and completed this merger, as it seems sensible. -- MaTrIx 04:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
How about a list of systems which a VNC program is available for? I'd put it on myself but I don't know which systems it's available for. Include things like Symbian OS and Windows Mobile (if they're available)
-Forlornity
87.82.6.16 20:01, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I last looked at this article back in early 2006 and found it useful. Today, it is the victim of so much heavy handed "correctness" that it is disorganized and difficult to follow. I find it ironic that a semi-automatic Java editor (a dead machine, in other words) is showing more common sense, flexibility and reader orientation in its suggestions than some of the folks who have worked this article over. Is there any point in my even trying to restore some order and structure or is everyone still poised to remove and delete everything? The rules are there to keep Wikepedia useful, but it seems as if all sides looked until they found a rule- or three- which permitted them to gut whatever body of text they wanted to get rid of. I'll give it a week or two and if it looks safe, I'll try to make things a bit more accessable. Panthera germanicus 10:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
In the introduction:
VNC was originally developed at AT&T.
In the History section:
VNC was created at the Olivetti & Oracle Research Lab, which was then owned by Olivetti and Oracle Corporation.
These seem pretty contradictionary, could someone clarify who actually made it? -- Munksgaard 18:59, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
In 1999 AT&T acquired the lab, and in 2002 closed down the lab's research efforts.
The only port number that is officially registered with Internet_Assigned_Numbers_Authority for use by VNC is port 5900. Mentioning other ports that could be assigned to other protocols at any time (including 5901-5906 and 5800-5806) might mislead users into trusting it is safe to use those ports, and then a port conflict could result on their system or in practice. IMHO, the main article should either only document the official port, or mention that use (abuse) of the unassigned port numbers may change or be incompatible with other things in the future. -- Cjnifty 20:05, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
I have a question, is it possible to play games on a weak computer if the weak computer is connected to one that is capable of playing games? I would use the stronger computer to run the game and the weaker of the two to control it, although I it'd make a lot more sense if things were rendered locally, so I might be out of luck on that one. I can't try this out myself but it'd be very interesting to find out. :) 84.216.46.57 ( talk) 17:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
since Google considers VNC and RealVNC as same, and dedicated RealVNC page looks not mature yet, i'm raising this question here
Could someone please explain if commercial editions are actual GPL violations or not, given the following facts:
most probably commercial and free editions are sharing same covered code. doesnt it make commercial editions covered too? i dont see any mentioning of dual licensing on their website... -- Al Leween ( talk) 18:27, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Non-RealVNC commercial VNC products would likely be challenged by VNC. There are however commercial products *based* on certain aspects of the VNC or RFB protocols, but are products in their own right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.44.6.81 ( talk) 11:01, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Does the line "Hamachi has been purchased by LogMeIn and is no longer freeware, though it's free for non-commercial use." in the security section add any value to the VNC article. Its true (no doubt about that) but this is not the place. It should be removed. Raoravikiran ( talk) 10:12, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
This may be incorrect but I believe VNC was created by Bell Labs sometime in the 1980s. Whether or not this is true, the article needs historical references to support whatever is claimed. It ought to be removed otherwise, or expressed as folklore. Kernel.package ( talk) 23:41, 30 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes you are wrong. You have missed the historical references (such as the original paper) that are linked to within the article. It does not need more proof that VNC was developed at ORL in the 1990s. 82.71.34.4 ( talk) 22:59, 10 November 2010 (UTC)
Someone should add a list of the different VNC's available. Here are some, TightVNC, RealVNC, UltraVNC. iPad VNC viewers VNC Pocket Office Pro — Preceding unsigned comment added by Parystec ( talk • contribs) 17:33, 11 January 2013 (UTC) Sherzad ( talk) 00:09, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
"at a time when Olivetti and Oracle Corporation owned the lab" And WHEN was that? Sheesh, have you not had history in school? It's full of actual dates, unlike this article. "When Olivetti and Oracle owned the lab" tells me nothing. And especially not about when VNC was designed/invented. Pre 2002 is all I can tell from this section. jae ( talk) 21:40, 3 December 2023 (UTC)