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What is this jumbled "South Korean Response" section that appears after the references? I'm not sure if it's part of the article that somehow got messed up or misplaced or if it's pure vandalism, so could somebody who is more familiar with this article please address the problem. Thanks. — Mears man 00:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I find the addition of the mention of the 2002 U.S. Military incident to be not very relevant. If Cho were a member of a 35,000 South Korean military force in the U.S., and were the source of considerable friction with the local population, I'm sure the American response would have been very different. The fact is, although Cho was of SK citizenship, he was much more American than Korean. Contrasting the Korean response to the American military accident and the American reaction to this incident is a low blow. I removed it, and someone put it back. If someone insists that it be put back, then I want it mentioned that the two cases are very different. Hyok lee 22:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Hyok_lee
This article is not about cultural differences but about the tragedy, so on this point you could also argue its relevance. However I would say the fact that the Korean interpretation of the tragedy was relevant. And don't quote from websites called www.usacrime.or.kr. That isn't really going to help prove your point. Kransky 13:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that mentioning the incident in Korea has any purpose here other than to sneakily imply things that are not relevant to the shootings. Some ethnic Korean students were fearful of retaliatory discrimination; no such incidents have been reported. That's all that needs to be said. If this incident had been racially fueled, then perhaps it would be worth making the stretch to discuss US-Korea relations or cultural differences, but it wasn't. Judging by the names and descriptions of victims, it seems that Cho was pretty indiscriminate in shooting his victims, and if the rumors are true, well, he liked the white meat, right? IMO there's just not enough of a parallel between the two incidents. In Korea, you have a longstanding military occupation by a foreign army that many of the local populace dislike fervently, due to a history of tension from incidents like rape, with the accidental killing of two children as a "last straw" kind of incident. In Virginia, you have a mentally disturbed individual, who was for all intents raised as an American citizen, deliberately shooting and killing 32 of his peers in an apparent fit of psychotic rage, and he belongs to an ethnic group that is, until now, generally regarded (that is, stereotyped) as being docile. So there was national outrage in Korea over the death of two girls. How exactly is that relevant to the lack of retaliatory violence after the deaths of 32 people at an American university? Ham Pastrami 14:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
This section is basically a long, POV, anti-gun/anti-Second Amendment screed and it needs to present some balance or be removed; unless, of course, I should add the non-gun-related violent crime rates of each of the cited international locales. So people need to stop trying to turn Wikipedia into their agenda forums. I'll give it a couple of days and then I'll make some sweeping changes to the section unless it's cleared up by then. Ikilled007 21:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This section seems rather meaningless and redundant. It also has less to do with international response and more to do with foreign media coverage. Therefore this section should either be eliminated or merged into the section on media coverage. Additionally, the entire second paragraph has nothing to do with response to this incident at all, but rather statements made in response to a 1996 incident in Australia, and I am therefore removing it.
70.240.132.251
23:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm restoring this section on the grounds that the international response is not "editorial." Griot 15:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Media response: Too lazy to look at the article at the moment.
University Response: I don't know if the vigil is necessary inline as it isn't particularly notable; indeed, I'm not sure how notabble cancelling classes was. Maybe just leave two lines about the cancellations and the counseling services being left available, and axe the rest; vigil might be worth keeping for a total of three sentences.
Student response: criticism of speed of lockdown good, and perhaps the thing about contacting people; the facebook pages and the Hokies united should be totally axed. Not sure if the Korean students being worried about descrimination is notable enough, but its marginally interesting.
Government response: Condolances could be removed. State of emergency should stay. Moment of silence can go (and more condolences can also go). Postponement of testamony should stay. George Bush's prayers can go. Honestly, I think the whole paragraph about Bush can go, save perhaps him attending the memorial service. Half staff flag is fine. New guidelines can stay, as can the entire last paragraph about the IRS and the gun politics and psychological profiling stuff.
Responses from other educational institutions: Housing of police officers may be okay, but is marginal. Nicholas Winset's dismissal should stay. The entire remainder of this section should be nuked, and I don't think that picture is needed either.
South Korean Response: This section is fine.
Cho Family Response: Fine.
Other responses: Sympathy can go Show being pulled can stay Falcons can go Browns can go Major league soccer can go AOL can go NASCAR can go Buckeyes can go Titanium Dragon 21:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure about how much notice this means it deserves, but classes at Virginia Tech are almost never cancelled. A quick web search might detail it better, but when they closed for the armed fugitive at the beginning of the year, I seem to recall hearing a specific number of times classes had been cancelled. I think it is worth noting, but the attention given it is up to debate. I'm far too involved to be objective. 76.160.173.242 20:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I know I haven't had a good track record with this article thus far, but I intend to change that. I have wanted to ask for this for a few days now but because of the recent incident regarding the merger proposals, i decided to try and let things cool off first. I would like to propose that the article be renamed to something along the lines of Virginia Tech Tragedy or the Tragedy of Virginia Tech. Using the word massacre in this context sounds like a buzzword. Not to mention, now that the media frenzy of the shooting has somewhat calmed down, I believe it is time for a more (shall I say,) professional view of the subject. Please let me know what you think. -- Amaraiel 03:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, here are the results on Google news:
Personally I think it's best to just try to go with the most common name, that also gets around all these ethical opinion-based arguments about what name we should use because of what POV we think it reflects. Ultimately article names should represent what something is most commonly called, not what random Wikipedia editors deem it should be called. Massacre seems to be more commonly used by a large (3:1) ratio, so I'd say that's what we should stick with. -- W.marsh 04:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
If we're going against wikipedia, why, then is the Columbine High School massacre, a featured article, called a massacre? Seems to me that we are on the side of wikipedia consensus here. Columbine is not a military killing spree, and no one argues. No one complains that it is POV for the simple reason that that is what everyone calls it. Most people call the Virginia Tech Massacre just that: Virginia Tech Massacre. I don't see the problem with this. Wrad 03:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Titanium - your accusations of emotional investment might carry more weight with me if they weren't immediately followed by casually thrown off words such as racism (second time), POV pushing right wingers and (from the Haditha killings talk page) bleeding hearts. Ronnotel 21:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Titanium, I was disagreeing with this pair of assertions in your earlier post: "Everyone knows massacre is a loaded word, which is why the Haditha killings article DOESN'T use the word as its title." May I suggest that there are only a very few assertions that can rightfully begin with "Everyone knows"? I think the debate boils down to a lack of consensus on whether the word massacre is an unacceptably "loaded word". Would you agree with that characterization of the debate at this point? -- Sfmammamia 22:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to add to what many of you consider a "settled" topic, but I agree with Titanium Dragon, as a matter of principle. "Massacre" is a loaded word, one of which we should be wary. Can we agree to that much? The complaint about whether or not "shooting" entails actual deaths seems like a weak argument, especially when compared to this question question about the validity of using a term like "massacre" that contributes little substantive, other than apparent (at least to me and Titanium Dragon) emotional connotations. "Shootings," "killings": is there really a strong argument *against* using one of these terms here, as long as it is fairly clear we're recognizing the fact people have died? This is, despite claims to the contrary, something that deserves to be discussed. How are we going to define an important event, and for what reasons will we use this label? To me, "massacre" seems to make certain unwarranted assumptions: it seems to posit that there are good, defenseless victims and evil, perhaps calculating and mentally stable actors in a given situation. And I don't feel that this moralistic assumption underlying the use of "massacre" is really called for. If this is a question of POV and bias, which I feel it is, then we don't need to worry about whether the issue of original research in using one term when the other might be slightly more common in the news media at a given time.^ We, as a community, have the responsibility to decide what terms represent our perspective of objectivity. As others have pointed out, the media do not always share this objective of our encyclopedia, anyway.
^On this note, remember that these terms might fall in and out of favor, even in your standard-bearer of the news media. Here are my results for *recent* hits through a Google News search (as of 4:00p.m. CST, 14-JUN-2007):
• "Virginia Tech" shootings: 3,641
• "Virginia Tech" massacre: 2,198
• "Virginia Tech shootings": 1,128
• "Virginia Tech massacre": 892
Also, for what it's worth, the archive of University Relations articles at http://www.vt.edu/remember/archive/ (all articles published in April) uses "shootings" 8 times, "massacre" none. Why? Might it have anything to do with a certain sensationalism understood in using the latter? Maxisdetermined 21:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that the name should be changed. "Massacre" is not only an emotionally charged word but it is subjective and sensationalist, it has a ring about it reminiscent of the overblown media coverage. "Shootings" is much more descriptive and precise, as a "massacre" could be conducted with a sword, or a flamethrower etc. As a tech student myself I cringe everytime I hear the word "massacre" on the television, and while this may be irrelevant to the discussion, I know many many people who feel the same way. It may have been, by definition, a massacre, but i feel that the word carries a certain connotation not fitting to the randomness and unprovoked nature of the incident. I plan on waiting a month or so for responses, and then changing the title of the article if no one can give any *good* reasons not to. "It is the status quo" and "the issue has been settled" are NOT good reasons. ~dan
See, this is why I said down below there that I didn't want to reopen this whole can of worms. While it's not likely to be nearly as bad as it was in the immediate aftermath of the shootings, the headaches caused by the heated discussion it'll get are far, far worse than any headaches from leaving it as is. It's generally referred to by the public and media as "the Virginia Tech massacre" now, and while I personally think that "2007 Virginia Tech shootings" would be a more encyclopedic title (and something similar for all recent mass shootings would be appropriate), the fact is, the current title is the one that people will be looking for it under. So long as we avoid sensationalist language in the article text, I grudgingly admit that we should leave the title as-is; there's no benefit in hashing this out for the seventeenth time when we'll get the exact same result as before--no consensus on what to do, resulting in our retaining the status quo. Rdfox 76 15:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I am strongly in favor of renaming the article to Virginia Tech shootings. While I have several reasons, I recognize that all but one are based on opinions. Virtually every reason here is an opinion - results on Google news are based on the opinions of people who wrote articles about the event. The definition of massacre is, in its specifics, opinion based. What is not an opinion, however, is that calling the event a shooting is indisputably accurate. Was it a massacre? Reading the responses to the question of whether the name should be changed, it seems that there are differing opinions on this, but something no one can deny is that it was a shooting. Wikipedia exists to present facts, and one fact is that it was a shooting, and one opinion is that it was a massacre. It could very well be a massacre in both fact and opinion, but shooting is more specific as to the details of the event. John R S 02:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Funny thing is, on the VT website where it shows the policies and everything for employees some actions are contrary to what was done and some aren't. First of all, the policies state a few obvious things
1) Never try and disarm or restrain an angry or deranged invididual, which I believe was done by a teacher. Or maybe it was a student, I'm not quite sure.
(2) At some point policy states that Cho should be
red-flagged immediately. The reason I ask is I'm doing a paper for the school and I'm trying to gain a general consensus. Of course I can't ask here, cause only the article is supposed to be discussed here. Does anyone know if anyone was monitoring Cho at any point and/or in any way after he turned those scripts for those plays into teachers. --
Amaraiel
04:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 9 mm, use 9 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 9 mm.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rooot 09:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Seriously? Why not pediatrician responses or bartender responses? This section is, for lack of a better term, response-cruft, so I'm removing it. Natalie 15:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Why not add it? at least under the other respsonses section. I know rappers, Jin lil Flip and heard that R. Kelly did a tribute song. I mean why is it okay to mention the show bones, but not rappers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.47.76 ( talk) 11:10, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
The section on Media Response now references the relevant issues from the section titled International Response. Plus, there's a link to a dedicated article on the topic. Is there some reason why we need to keep the section as is? We're definitely in overkill mode here. All of the response sections have been cut back to focus on the most relevant issues - Sfmammamia and others have done a fantastic job. Leaving International Response as is seems awkward in this light.
Ronnotel
20:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks much better to me now. Has almost all of the previous content but much more NPOV-formatted and framed. -- M a s 09:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It may just be my machine, but the aerial photo of the campus is covering up text. Rooot 23:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this page needs to be archived again. The talk page is very long. Maybe we should put the bot back and set it to archive every two weeks, instead of every two days, like it was before. Wrad 05:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I suggested earlier that someone who has been editing this for awhile step in and organize the archives, but no one responded. I haven't really been participating enough to be able to do it. I don't know what the big debates have been. The page is getting big though, and needs to be archived one way or another. Wrad 17:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The referenced citation clearly specifies 25 injured, not 29. I reverted recent change back to cite. Ronnotel 04:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I was a little apprehensive to review this article, due to its high-traffic nature. I've been watching it regularly since the incident, and it has been something special watching it evolve. The images look fine and for those necessary there are fair use rationales. I'm prepared to list it, but I'd love a second opinion since I'm bound to have missed things. The main question still probably concerns stability.
At what point is it considered stable? Do we count edits? (This page was edited 26 times total on May 13.) Wrad 18:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
My thoughts also lean towards making it a GA. Sure it has changed a lot since the incident, but it has remained GA quality, I think, for at least several weeks. I think that that should qualify for stability, if nothing else. Wrad 03:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
It was reported throughout many news outlets that there was an online video game on NewGrounds, which is a flash game site where people can submit new flash games. A 21-year old male, whose alias is PigPen, made a Virginia Tech shooting game and submitted it to NewGrounds. It is still currently on the site. The game is officially called "V-TECH RAMPAGE." 67.162.108.111 04:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's not jump on the guy, here, if news outlets are reporting it, it may be worth at least a mention in the article. After all, the FA Columbine Massacre article talks about similar games. Wrad 19:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I can understand your hesitation. Wrad 19:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This game has received coverage on several major networks, ABC and NBC among them. The full name has been identified. The game isn't really all that noteworthy, nor is its creator, but the media has certainly taken ahold of it. ( Community editor 22:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC))
Do you feel if it would be verifiable if we state that Klein was in the German class?
Now, this source: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07107/778657-84.stm does not explicitly state this, but, we have the process of elimination.
The names of all of the people in Rooms 206 and 211 ( http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-042507-na-french-g,1,3604642.graphic?coll=la-headlines-frontpage&ctrack=2&cset=true) are known, so we know that Klein could not have been in either of the rooms.
Now, this source states that a friend stated that Klein saw the teacher being shot as the gunman burst into the room. Since this data matches the events happening in Room 207, that would have to be Klein's classroom (204 had Librescu, who blocked the door and allowed for students to escape). WhisperToMe 01:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember the specifics, but I read days after the incident that a Christian hate group lauded the event, calling it retaliation from God via the perpetrator for several causes--all of which were largely abstract and unfounded--and that America on a whole should right these (poorly elaborated upon) wrongs.
To reiterate, I don't know enough specifics to properly be bold myself, but I remember the daughter of the pastor in charge of the hate group is the one responsible for the information given to the media. I know there was also internet coverage on this, and that at least one of the sites was reputable enough to source here.
As it is directly related to the content of the article, I believe it warrants being added...preferably to the Responses subheading. .Absolution. 00:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Provided for educational convenience is the EQUITAS Legal GateWay [6] that has a new section related to the VATECH Massacre [7] which emphasizes on domestic terrorism as a probable cause and displays - amongst other things - timelines of select topic-related issues including authoritative Legal content derived from external links and podcasts supplying comparative analysis of: Emergency and Preparedness Plans; School and Campus Security; Liability Issues and past as of recent amendments to the Virginia Code. The vatech page also includes the Wikipedia Virginia Tech Massacre Timeline. I suggest to review this expanding site and include its link in a legal category available within the WikiPedia Virginia Tech Massacre page. -- just 01:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking over the article as it stands right now, and I think it's very close to Featured Article status. Of course, due dilligence should be used. Shall we order a peer review, to point out any remaining deficiencies? -- Kitch ( Talk : Contrib) 16:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence now reads "...shot 61 people, killing 32 and wounding many more...". We know that the total number injured was 25 as per VTech. However, I believe that some of the injuries were indirect, i.e. jumping from a window. Is the 61 number reliably sourced anywhere? Unless we can source this I think we should revert to previous text. Ronnotel 23:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Rdfox, out of curiosity, to which side of the gun control debate did my altered language skew - pro or anti? I think you were a little quick to hit the POV button. My intent was to better paraphrase the referenced press release. In it, I saw neither the word 'unconscionable', nor any reference to Cho; hence my choice of wording. I don't really much care but I think the wording was better my way. Ronnotel 18:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
As the editor who inserted the original summation of the pro-gun-control argument in the lead section (the wording there currently, i.e., "Cho's easy access to handguns was unconscionable"), I have changed the reference to one that more broadly frames the issue than the Brady Campaign's new release. I think the current wording more accurately reflects the broader spectrum of pro-gun-control response to the issue, a point of view with enough weight and consensus that it has since played out in the moves to tighten up the gun control loopholes spotlighted by the incident. -- Sfmammamia 19:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It is a shame that the mediator of this Article demands that those editing the article continuously refer to this event in a sensationalist manner. While Research would finely contend that the Media has labeled this event as the "Virginia Tech Massacre", it is inappropriate to repeat this language continuously throughout the course of the article. We can historically remember this event without being offensive to those involved. It is just as scientific to refer to this event as a tradgedy, acknowledging the emotional impact it had on the university and the country.
David Virginia Tech '08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.191.36 ( talk • contribs)
Tragedies are unavoidable. This massacre could have been avoided if CCW permit holders were allowed to exercise their state sanctioned privileges or if Cho had been properly dealt with by the medical and legal community. (I'm simply providing these examples for contextual purposes.) -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 20:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC) "Misfortune" is also a key component of the definition of a "tragedy." It would be difficult to say that the victims of the event simply suffered from unavoidable bad luck. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 23:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there more that can be said about the after effects of this event? Has VT changed any policies in response to this event? Has fall enrollment at VT dropped? ike9898 13:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
It just struck me as bing a bit strange.... The VT massacre is an event which took place in several buildings in Virginia Tech. It is not a place. So it makes little sense to me to have displayed the coordinates as if this were a place (There are already coordinates in the VT article). Ohconfucius 01:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been reading through the featured article review discussion and thought it would be helpful to distill comments made there into a list of ideas for future improvements, or at least further discussion.
Also mentioned but seems already resolved: one or more "cite needed" tags.
I made a start at reducing footnotes in the lead section, will look to do more of this. -- Sfmammamia 23:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a little bit late, but i think we should post
an article on the heroes that put and/or gived up their lives to protect their students, or classmates. Teachers like
Liviu Librescu and students like
Derek O'Dell and
Zach Petkewicz. Its people like this show that they have/had the courage to do something as bravery like this.
Liviu Librescu gaved up his own life to save his students by blocking the door to his classroom while his students jump out of the windows. And just when his last student made it out the window,
Seung-Hui Cho succeeded in opening the door and shot him to death.
Derek O'Dell got shot in the right arm and quickly thinking right when Cho left the room, O'Dell and his classmate, not identified, slammed the door and held it shut with their feet. Cho tried to get in but did not succeed.
Zach Petkewicz and his ten classmates was aware when they heard a shot fired. At first a coward by hiding behind a podium, he looked up and saw the door. He saw that there was nothing blocking the door and Cho could have easily walk in and killed them. Petkewicz and two other classmates barricade the door with tables
and physically hold it there. Cho, like the O'Dell case, tried to get in but was unsuccessful.
Jaimie64
18:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)jaimie64
The page should be renamed to "Virginia Tech Shooting", not "Virginia Tech Massacre". Virginia Tech shooting has come to be the most common name for it, and it is a far more neutral name. This was brought up ages ago, but we didn't move it because we were afraid it would start move wars and disrupt the article. Now that it has stabilized, I suggest we should move the whole page to Virginia Tech shooting where it belongs. Titanium Dragon 20:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
NOW do you guys see why I didn't want to reopen this can of worms? Oy. We're gonna be having 2k arguments shot back and forth over this for a month and end up exactly where we started, with no consensus, no agreement, and people cranky at each other again... Rdfox 76 23:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
a later (albeit redundant) response: Since Max seemed to have missed the fact that I've already answered this question, I will post again and make sure the point is as clear as possible. It is my unwavering belief that every word you have found to bring fuller meaning to "massacre" (with the exception of the reference to slaughtering animals) is attributable to this event. Let me give you some examples:
All this aside, please let it be known that I support the renaming of this article to Virginia Tech shootings if and when it can be demonstrated that there is support for (or minimally, lack of strong dissent to) the renaming of other articles on school-related attacks with fewer fatalities using the word "massacre". HokieRNB 02:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Titanium - I would like to respond to your comment that the word massacre "is SELDOM applied to situations such as this". Please refer to the articles for California State University, Fullerton library massacre, Cologne school massacre, Columbine High School massacre, Dunblane massacre, École Polytechnique massacre, Jonesboro massacre, Osaka school massacre, Red Lake High School massacre. All had significantly fewer fatalities (7, 11, 15, 18, 15, 5, 8, and 10, respectively). In US history, only the Bath School disaster was deadlier - note that its title is not Bath School bombings. HokieRNB 19:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little wary of making determinations of the POV-ness of a name, considering that in certain circles, the name American Civil War is unacceptably POV. While I don't agree with this myself, I think one could argue that "shootings" is POV because it minimizes the horror or badness or whatever of the event. Given this, I think we should follow the general Wikipedia rule of using the most common name. I'm not sure of another way to determine what the most common name is, other than google search results, simply because less than a year has passed and the dust hasn't really settled. So without another compelling reason to use "massacre" I'm okay with switching to shootings. Natalie 17:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's what I believe is unfortunate about this discussion. This article recently went through a featured article review. It failed, but there were numerous suggestions for its improvement, which I summarized here. At no point in that discussion was changing the title raised as an important improvement. So while much energy and time has been expended on this debate, very little energy and time has been put into making the suggested improvements that would, in my opinion and in the eyes of the editors who participated in the featured article review, truly improve the article. Dismissing the relevance of precedents is also singularly unconvincing to me, as one can assume that consensus was established through equally careful discussion on other articles. Both actions (ignoring the prioritized list of suggested improvements and dismissing as irrelevant the consensus for use of the term "massacre" on other articles) seem counter to the consensus process so valued on Wikipedia. I'm with HokieRNB on this one; I think the title should stand. -- Sfmammamia 00:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that Wikipedia has pretty clear guidelines for resolving naming conflicts. Following the specific guidelines there for the Google test, "Virginia Tech massacre" is still the most common name. Here is the current Google test result, as of today:
-- Sfmammamia 16:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is done on all pages of a similar nature, but to me it reads and looks like a top trumps card, why is what gun used of such particular importance? Its way above my head to change it, just wonering waht others think.
Since there has been some debate on the VT gun ban, particularly whether the presence of other people carrying guns would have reduced or even prevented the killings, has there been any debate about the gun ban in general? I mean rather then considering just this one incident, considering the ban in general. Like what effect, if any, the ban has had on violent crime in VT. (Since for example, even if the presence of students with guns had reduced the killings in this incident, if it also leads to an overall increase in violent crime or in killings in particular, it might not be worth it. Or vice versa.) Of course this probably doesn't belong here, perhaps Virginia Tech campus but I thought I'd mention it here since people who've been following the debate are far more likely to be checking out this talk page Nil Einne 16:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good way to reach some consensus on the title of the article... let's make a simultaneous proposal to change the names of all the following school-related attacks:
Alternatively, we could just drop the issue and admit that on wikipedia and in the eyes of the general public even neutral words have the ability to evoke emotion (e.g. disaster). HokieRNB 17:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
First off, I could challenge you to change the name of several hundred articles which use the title shooting rather than massacre. This is farcical; I know as someone who went to Virginia Tech you have a strong POV on the issue, but you're being unreasonable. Second, some of these have legitimate names.
Ect.
The reality is that a lot of these are very arguably in the wrong place, but I do not pay much attention to these pages in general; I only read them incidentally, and am only involved to keep propaganda and junk off Wikipedia. Maybe after this article is changed I'll go through and examine their names and see if they should be moved and talk about it, but each is a different article. For instance, the Boston massacre is the primary name of that event by far, precisely because it was a propaganda tool; this is nowhere near as well established and it seems that the propagandaists are losing in general. I think that this article should go with the neutral name, and THIS is the article we need to deal with now. I think that articles should be named appropriately and neutrally. Titanium Dragon 04:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, Titanium, people have spent pages arguing with a straight face "that massacre isn't a loaded term". That's exactly the argument. We've shown through the definition itself that the events at Virginia Tech are precisely what the word massacre means. We've shown through more than a dozen similar articles that when similar things happen at other schools, it is often referred to as a massacre. As of this morning, there are still more than 150 current news references to the term "Virginia Tech massacre". What you have just described is "Original Research". I really can't believe that you are suggesting we all go out and ask our friends "What do you call the incident that occurred at Virginia Tech?" Why don't we just set up a Facebook poll? I stand by my former recommendation. Begin changing some of the less controversial and less frequently edited articles about incidents with fewer casualties and less press coverage, and see what the result is. If over time these articles stand without the "massacre" title, then I think you'll have a better case to make for renaming this one. HokieRNB 11:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
HokieRNB 20:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Explain upfront: Many people will first make an edit, and then explain it on the talk page. Somehow there will always be some fast-off-the-hip reverter who manages to revert you right in the middle. To try to prevent this, reverse the order, first edit the talk page, and then make your edit. People respond more slowly on talk pages.
Evidence suggests that he may have rehearsed for the attack Source 1, Source 2. Please incorporate this into the article, if possible. BlueAg09 ( Talk) 18:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
There are nationwide and campus specific movements to permit concealed carry permit holding students to carry on campus as they would be able to off campus. This movement, which has been covered by all the major news networks, is being wholly overlooked here on Wikipedia to the point where I'm tempted to question the Neutrality of this article. [14] [15] -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 04:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Well here's some refs, both national, outlining movements for and against concealed carry on campus:
For:
Against:
These are just a few. There are several more describing movements on both sides. Wrad 19:11, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, in light of the tremendous job that the editors of this article did on detailing the tragic events that happen here without becoming a memorial to the victims, I was wondering if we could get some editorial assistance on the Anna Svidersky article. On that talk page there is discussion about whether or not the article crosses the line into becoming a memorial. I pointed to the example on this page of Virginia_Tech_Massacre#Other_responses and how that was able to note the memorials and public reaction without crossing a line into becoming a tribute itself. Similarly I would say an excellent job was done in the "resistance section" and at List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre in maintaining encyclopedic focus and not becoming a tribute. Any outside view would be appreciated. I see great potential in the Anna Svidersky article and I would like to see it reach the level of writing as this article. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
It's very clear that this could have, and should have been prevented within the scope of the mental health system yet this Wikipedia article places undue weight on the gun control debate simply because it is a lightning rod issue and guns are easier to attack than health care. Today's (Aug 27, 2007) front page Washington Post article is the smoking gun (no pun intended):
Fairfax County school officials determined that Seung Hui Cho suffered from an anxiety disorder so severe that they put him in special education and devised a plan to help, according to sources familiar with his history, but Virginia Tech was never told of the problem. [17]
I would like to avoid tagging this article. Please reassess the opening paragraphs. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 21:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Citation #10 references Ted Nugent. You couldn't ask for a better pro-gun strawman. For that, I'm tagging the article. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 21:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The intro highlights only anti-gun policies. The intro should at least highlight something pro-gun that came out of this via concealed carry movements, or am I missing something. Wrad 18:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I recently removed nearly identical text to what has been added here because it references the results of Gov. Kaine's panel, which is already covered elsewhere. There was a similiarly titled section long ago that was removed, I believe, because it was considered unencyclopedic and possibly POV. Is this topic of sufficient import to merit it's own section? I would say no but think it deserves some more feedback. Ronnotel 18:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
New panel reports have been released that specifically cite Inaction by Virginia Tech administration in regards to deaths at virginia tech. Panel findings have confirmed that had Virginia Tech officials had done SOMETHING after the first shootings at the school, fewer people would have died in the massacre. This proves that Virginia Tech administration was partially to blame for the deaths involved at Norris Hall and that light should be shed upon this subject. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.13.244.119 (
talk) 18:33, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
Many people ARE putting blame onto virginia tech's administration for sitting on the sidelines and being indecisive about how to secure a college campuses when a murderer is on the loose. Campus beuracracy caused the unneccesary death of several people on the campus. There is an entire section in this article based upon how gun control may have been an issue in the massacre that is very POV related, yet I don't see anyone deleting the section on gun control.
The issue of virginia tech's inaction to the death's on it's campus has been a hot topic since day one. So far this article mentions nothing about it besides minor references hidden within articles relating to governmental bueracracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.244.119 ( talk) 18:51, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
No one has made any attempt to address anything other than point out a few pseudo-pov errors that I have already corrected. Rather than simply deleting a section with relevant and current information, someone should make an attempt at article improvement rather than incessant nit-picking over minor details.
And as far as being unencyclopaedic, this is an article based upon a current and ongoing event, which in itself strays from normal unencyclopaedic content. And as far as logging reverts, I have began logging your reverts as well as your actions are also in violation as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.244.119 ( talk) 19:18, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 |
What is this jumbled "South Korean Response" section that appears after the references? I'm not sure if it's part of the article that somehow got messed up or misplaced or if it's pure vandalism, so could somebody who is more familiar with this article please address the problem. Thanks. — Mears man 00:47, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
I find the addition of the mention of the 2002 U.S. Military incident to be not very relevant. If Cho were a member of a 35,000 South Korean military force in the U.S., and were the source of considerable friction with the local population, I'm sure the American response would have been very different. The fact is, although Cho was of SK citizenship, he was much more American than Korean. Contrasting the Korean response to the American military accident and the American reaction to this incident is a low blow. I removed it, and someone put it back. If someone insists that it be put back, then I want it mentioned that the two cases are very different. Hyok lee 22:38, 11 May 2007 (UTC)Hyok_lee
This article is not about cultural differences but about the tragedy, so on this point you could also argue its relevance. However I would say the fact that the Korean interpretation of the tragedy was relevant. And don't quote from websites called www.usacrime.or.kr. That isn't really going to help prove your point. Kransky 13:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that mentioning the incident in Korea has any purpose here other than to sneakily imply things that are not relevant to the shootings. Some ethnic Korean students were fearful of retaliatory discrimination; no such incidents have been reported. That's all that needs to be said. If this incident had been racially fueled, then perhaps it would be worth making the stretch to discuss US-Korea relations or cultural differences, but it wasn't. Judging by the names and descriptions of victims, it seems that Cho was pretty indiscriminate in shooting his victims, and if the rumors are true, well, he liked the white meat, right? IMO there's just not enough of a parallel between the two incidents. In Korea, you have a longstanding military occupation by a foreign army that many of the local populace dislike fervently, due to a history of tension from incidents like rape, with the accidental killing of two children as a "last straw" kind of incident. In Virginia, you have a mentally disturbed individual, who was for all intents raised as an American citizen, deliberately shooting and killing 32 of his peers in an apparent fit of psychotic rage, and he belongs to an ethnic group that is, until now, generally regarded (that is, stereotyped) as being docile. So there was national outrage in Korea over the death of two girls. How exactly is that relevant to the lack of retaliatory violence after the deaths of 32 people at an American university? Ham Pastrami 14:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
This section is basically a long, POV, anti-gun/anti-Second Amendment screed and it needs to present some balance or be removed; unless, of course, I should add the non-gun-related violent crime rates of each of the cited international locales. So people need to stop trying to turn Wikipedia into their agenda forums. I'll give it a couple of days and then I'll make some sweeping changes to the section unless it's cleared up by then. Ikilled007 21:41, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
This section seems rather meaningless and redundant. It also has less to do with international response and more to do with foreign media coverage. Therefore this section should either be eliminated or merged into the section on media coverage. Additionally, the entire second paragraph has nothing to do with response to this incident at all, but rather statements made in response to a 1996 incident in Australia, and I am therefore removing it.
70.240.132.251
23:39, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm restoring this section on the grounds that the international response is not "editorial." Griot 15:18, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Media response: Too lazy to look at the article at the moment.
University Response: I don't know if the vigil is necessary inline as it isn't particularly notable; indeed, I'm not sure how notabble cancelling classes was. Maybe just leave two lines about the cancellations and the counseling services being left available, and axe the rest; vigil might be worth keeping for a total of three sentences.
Student response: criticism of speed of lockdown good, and perhaps the thing about contacting people; the facebook pages and the Hokies united should be totally axed. Not sure if the Korean students being worried about descrimination is notable enough, but its marginally interesting.
Government response: Condolances could be removed. State of emergency should stay. Moment of silence can go (and more condolences can also go). Postponement of testamony should stay. George Bush's prayers can go. Honestly, I think the whole paragraph about Bush can go, save perhaps him attending the memorial service. Half staff flag is fine. New guidelines can stay, as can the entire last paragraph about the IRS and the gun politics and psychological profiling stuff.
Responses from other educational institutions: Housing of police officers may be okay, but is marginal. Nicholas Winset's dismissal should stay. The entire remainder of this section should be nuked, and I don't think that picture is needed either.
South Korean Response: This section is fine.
Cho Family Response: Fine.
Other responses: Sympathy can go Show being pulled can stay Falcons can go Browns can go Major league soccer can go AOL can go NASCAR can go Buckeyes can go Titanium Dragon 21:56, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Not sure about how much notice this means it deserves, but classes at Virginia Tech are almost never cancelled. A quick web search might detail it better, but when they closed for the armed fugitive at the beginning of the year, I seem to recall hearing a specific number of times classes had been cancelled. I think it is worth noting, but the attention given it is up to debate. I'm far too involved to be objective. 76.160.173.242 20:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I know I haven't had a good track record with this article thus far, but I intend to change that. I have wanted to ask for this for a few days now but because of the recent incident regarding the merger proposals, i decided to try and let things cool off first. I would like to propose that the article be renamed to something along the lines of Virginia Tech Tragedy or the Tragedy of Virginia Tech. Using the word massacre in this context sounds like a buzzword. Not to mention, now that the media frenzy of the shooting has somewhat calmed down, I believe it is time for a more (shall I say,) professional view of the subject. Please let me know what you think. -- Amaraiel 03:46, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, here are the results on Google news:
Personally I think it's best to just try to go with the most common name, that also gets around all these ethical opinion-based arguments about what name we should use because of what POV we think it reflects. Ultimately article names should represent what something is most commonly called, not what random Wikipedia editors deem it should be called. Massacre seems to be more commonly used by a large (3:1) ratio, so I'd say that's what we should stick with. -- W.marsh 04:09, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
If we're going against wikipedia, why, then is the Columbine High School massacre, a featured article, called a massacre? Seems to me that we are on the side of wikipedia consensus here. Columbine is not a military killing spree, and no one argues. No one complains that it is POV for the simple reason that that is what everyone calls it. Most people call the Virginia Tech Massacre just that: Virginia Tech Massacre. I don't see the problem with this. Wrad 03:35, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Titanium - your accusations of emotional investment might carry more weight with me if they weren't immediately followed by casually thrown off words such as racism (second time), POV pushing right wingers and (from the Haditha killings talk page) bleeding hearts. Ronnotel 21:02, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
Titanium, I was disagreeing with this pair of assertions in your earlier post: "Everyone knows massacre is a loaded word, which is why the Haditha killings article DOESN'T use the word as its title." May I suggest that there are only a very few assertions that can rightfully begin with "Everyone knows"? I think the debate boils down to a lack of consensus on whether the word massacre is an unacceptably "loaded word". Would you agree with that characterization of the debate at this point? -- Sfmammamia 22:55, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to add to what many of you consider a "settled" topic, but I agree with Titanium Dragon, as a matter of principle. "Massacre" is a loaded word, one of which we should be wary. Can we agree to that much? The complaint about whether or not "shooting" entails actual deaths seems like a weak argument, especially when compared to this question question about the validity of using a term like "massacre" that contributes little substantive, other than apparent (at least to me and Titanium Dragon) emotional connotations. "Shootings," "killings": is there really a strong argument *against* using one of these terms here, as long as it is fairly clear we're recognizing the fact people have died? This is, despite claims to the contrary, something that deserves to be discussed. How are we going to define an important event, and for what reasons will we use this label? To me, "massacre" seems to make certain unwarranted assumptions: it seems to posit that there are good, defenseless victims and evil, perhaps calculating and mentally stable actors in a given situation. And I don't feel that this moralistic assumption underlying the use of "massacre" is really called for. If this is a question of POV and bias, which I feel it is, then we don't need to worry about whether the issue of original research in using one term when the other might be slightly more common in the news media at a given time.^ We, as a community, have the responsibility to decide what terms represent our perspective of objectivity. As others have pointed out, the media do not always share this objective of our encyclopedia, anyway.
^On this note, remember that these terms might fall in and out of favor, even in your standard-bearer of the news media. Here are my results for *recent* hits through a Google News search (as of 4:00p.m. CST, 14-JUN-2007):
• "Virginia Tech" shootings: 3,641
• "Virginia Tech" massacre: 2,198
• "Virginia Tech shootings": 1,128
• "Virginia Tech massacre": 892
Also, for what it's worth, the archive of University Relations articles at http://www.vt.edu/remember/archive/ (all articles published in April) uses "shootings" 8 times, "massacre" none. Why? Might it have anything to do with a certain sensationalism understood in using the latter? Maxisdetermined 21:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I also agree that the name should be changed. "Massacre" is not only an emotionally charged word but it is subjective and sensationalist, it has a ring about it reminiscent of the overblown media coverage. "Shootings" is much more descriptive and precise, as a "massacre" could be conducted with a sword, or a flamethrower etc. As a tech student myself I cringe everytime I hear the word "massacre" on the television, and while this may be irrelevant to the discussion, I know many many people who feel the same way. It may have been, by definition, a massacre, but i feel that the word carries a certain connotation not fitting to the randomness and unprovoked nature of the incident. I plan on waiting a month or so for responses, and then changing the title of the article if no one can give any *good* reasons not to. "It is the status quo" and "the issue has been settled" are NOT good reasons. ~dan
See, this is why I said down below there that I didn't want to reopen this whole can of worms. While it's not likely to be nearly as bad as it was in the immediate aftermath of the shootings, the headaches caused by the heated discussion it'll get are far, far worse than any headaches from leaving it as is. It's generally referred to by the public and media as "the Virginia Tech massacre" now, and while I personally think that "2007 Virginia Tech shootings" would be a more encyclopedic title (and something similar for all recent mass shootings would be appropriate), the fact is, the current title is the one that people will be looking for it under. So long as we avoid sensationalist language in the article text, I grudgingly admit that we should leave the title as-is; there's no benefit in hashing this out for the seventeenth time when we'll get the exact same result as before--no consensus on what to do, resulting in our retaining the status quo. Rdfox 76 15:21, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
I am strongly in favor of renaming the article to Virginia Tech shootings. While I have several reasons, I recognize that all but one are based on opinions. Virtually every reason here is an opinion - results on Google news are based on the opinions of people who wrote articles about the event. The definition of massacre is, in its specifics, opinion based. What is not an opinion, however, is that calling the event a shooting is indisputably accurate. Was it a massacre? Reading the responses to the question of whether the name should be changed, it seems that there are differing opinions on this, but something no one can deny is that it was a shooting. Wikipedia exists to present facts, and one fact is that it was a shooting, and one opinion is that it was a massacre. It could very well be a massacre in both fact and opinion, but shooting is more specific as to the details of the event. John R S 02:38, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Funny thing is, on the VT website where it shows the policies and everything for employees some actions are contrary to what was done and some aren't. First of all, the policies state a few obvious things
1) Never try and disarm or restrain an angry or deranged invididual, which I believe was done by a teacher. Or maybe it was a student, I'm not quite sure.
(2) At some point policy states that Cho should be
red-flagged immediately. The reason I ask is I'm doing a paper for the school and I'm trying to gain a general consensus. Of course I can't ask here, cause only the article is supposed to be discussed here. Does anyone know if anyone was monitoring Cho at any point and/or in any way after he turned those scripts for those plays into teachers. --
Amaraiel
04:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 9 mm, use 9 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 9 mm.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rooot 09:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Seriously? Why not pediatrician responses or bartender responses? This section is, for lack of a better term, response-cruft, so I'm removing it. Natalie 15:58, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Why not add it? at least under the other respsonses section. I know rappers, Jin lil Flip and heard that R. Kelly did a tribute song. I mean why is it okay to mention the show bones, but not rappers? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.92.47.76 ( talk) 11:10, August 25, 2007 (UTC)
The section on Media Response now references the relevant issues from the section titled International Response. Plus, there's a link to a dedicated article on the topic. Is there some reason why we need to keep the section as is? We're definitely in overkill mode here. All of the response sections have been cut back to focus on the most relevant issues - Sfmammamia and others have done a fantastic job. Leaving International Response as is seems awkward in this light.
Ronnotel
20:59, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
Looks much better to me now. Has almost all of the previous content but much more NPOV-formatted and framed. -- M a s 09:15, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
It may just be my machine, but the aerial photo of the campus is covering up text. Rooot 23:20, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
I think this page needs to be archived again. The talk page is very long. Maybe we should put the bot back and set it to archive every two weeks, instead of every two days, like it was before. Wrad 05:26, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I suggested earlier that someone who has been editing this for awhile step in and organize the archives, but no one responded. I haven't really been participating enough to be able to do it. I don't know what the big debates have been. The page is getting big though, and needs to be archived one way or another. Wrad 17:37, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
The referenced citation clearly specifies 25 injured, not 29. I reverted recent change back to cite. Ronnotel 04:18, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I was a little apprehensive to review this article, due to its high-traffic nature. I've been watching it regularly since the incident, and it has been something special watching it evolve. The images look fine and for those necessary there are fair use rationales. I'm prepared to list it, but I'd love a second opinion since I'm bound to have missed things. The main question still probably concerns stability.
At what point is it considered stable? Do we count edits? (This page was edited 26 times total on May 13.) Wrad 18:24, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
My thoughts also lean towards making it a GA. Sure it has changed a lot since the incident, but it has remained GA quality, I think, for at least several weeks. I think that that should qualify for stability, if nothing else. Wrad 03:19, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
It was reported throughout many news outlets that there was an online video game on NewGrounds, which is a flash game site where people can submit new flash games. A 21-year old male, whose alias is PigPen, made a Virginia Tech shooting game and submitted it to NewGrounds. It is still currently on the site. The game is officially called "V-TECH RAMPAGE." 67.162.108.111 04:17, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
Let's not jump on the guy, here, if news outlets are reporting it, it may be worth at least a mention in the article. After all, the FA Columbine Massacre article talks about similar games. Wrad 19:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
I can understand your hesitation. Wrad 19:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
This game has received coverage on several major networks, ABC and NBC among them. The full name has been identified. The game isn't really all that noteworthy, nor is its creator, but the media has certainly taken ahold of it. ( Community editor 22:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC))
Do you feel if it would be verifiable if we state that Klein was in the German class?
Now, this source: http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07107/778657-84.stm does not explicitly state this, but, we have the process of elimination.
The names of all of the people in Rooms 206 and 211 ( http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-042507-na-french-g,1,3604642.graphic?coll=la-headlines-frontpage&ctrack=2&cset=true) are known, so we know that Klein could not have been in either of the rooms.
Now, this source states that a friend stated that Klein saw the teacher being shot as the gunman burst into the room. Since this data matches the events happening in Room 207, that would have to be Klein's classroom (204 had Librescu, who blocked the door and allowed for students to escape). WhisperToMe 01:28, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't remember the specifics, but I read days after the incident that a Christian hate group lauded the event, calling it retaliation from God via the perpetrator for several causes--all of which were largely abstract and unfounded--and that America on a whole should right these (poorly elaborated upon) wrongs.
To reiterate, I don't know enough specifics to properly be bold myself, but I remember the daughter of the pastor in charge of the hate group is the one responsible for the information given to the media. I know there was also internet coverage on this, and that at least one of the sites was reputable enough to source here.
As it is directly related to the content of the article, I believe it warrants being added...preferably to the Responses subheading. .Absolution. 00:10, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Provided for educational convenience is the EQUITAS Legal GateWay [6] that has a new section related to the VATECH Massacre [7] which emphasizes on domestic terrorism as a probable cause and displays - amongst other things - timelines of select topic-related issues including authoritative Legal content derived from external links and podcasts supplying comparative analysis of: Emergency and Preparedness Plans; School and Campus Security; Liability Issues and past as of recent amendments to the Virginia Code. The vatech page also includes the Wikipedia Virginia Tech Massacre Timeline. I suggest to review this expanding site and include its link in a legal category available within the WikiPedia Virginia Tech Massacre page. -- just 01:50, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking over the article as it stands right now, and I think it's very close to Featured Article status. Of course, due dilligence should be used. Shall we order a peer review, to point out any remaining deficiencies? -- Kitch ( Talk : Contrib) 16:45, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence now reads "...shot 61 people, killing 32 and wounding many more...". We know that the total number injured was 25 as per VTech. However, I believe that some of the injuries were indirect, i.e. jumping from a window. Is the 61 number reliably sourced anywhere? Unless we can source this I think we should revert to previous text. Ronnotel 23:19, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Rdfox, out of curiosity, to which side of the gun control debate did my altered language skew - pro or anti? I think you were a little quick to hit the POV button. My intent was to better paraphrase the referenced press release. In it, I saw neither the word 'unconscionable', nor any reference to Cho; hence my choice of wording. I don't really much care but I think the wording was better my way. Ronnotel 18:18, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
As the editor who inserted the original summation of the pro-gun-control argument in the lead section (the wording there currently, i.e., "Cho's easy access to handguns was unconscionable"), I have changed the reference to one that more broadly frames the issue than the Brady Campaign's new release. I think the current wording more accurately reflects the broader spectrum of pro-gun-control response to the issue, a point of view with enough weight and consensus that it has since played out in the moves to tighten up the gun control loopholes spotlighted by the incident. -- Sfmammamia 19:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
It is a shame that the mediator of this Article demands that those editing the article continuously refer to this event in a sensationalist manner. While Research would finely contend that the Media has labeled this event as the "Virginia Tech Massacre", it is inappropriate to repeat this language continuously throughout the course of the article. We can historically remember this event without being offensive to those involved. It is just as scientific to refer to this event as a tradgedy, acknowledging the emotional impact it had on the university and the country.
David Virginia Tech '08 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.108.191.36 ( talk • contribs)
Tragedies are unavoidable. This massacre could have been avoided if CCW permit holders were allowed to exercise their state sanctioned privileges or if Cho had been properly dealt with by the medical and legal community. (I'm simply providing these examples for contextual purposes.) -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 20:04, 23 July 2007 (UTC) "Misfortune" is also a key component of the definition of a "tragedy." It would be difficult to say that the victims of the event simply suffered from unavoidable bad luck. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 23:29, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Isn't there more that can be said about the after effects of this event? Has VT changed any policies in response to this event? Has fall enrollment at VT dropped? ike9898 13:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
It just struck me as bing a bit strange.... The VT massacre is an event which took place in several buildings in Virginia Tech. It is not a place. So it makes little sense to me to have displayed the coordinates as if this were a place (There are already coordinates in the VT article). Ohconfucius 01:30, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I've been reading through the featured article review discussion and thought it would be helpful to distill comments made there into a list of ideas for future improvements, or at least further discussion.
Also mentioned but seems already resolved: one or more "cite needed" tags.
I made a start at reducing footnotes in the lead section, will look to do more of this. -- Sfmammamia 23:17, 24 July 2007 (UTC)
I know this is a little bit late, but i think we should post
an article on the heroes that put and/or gived up their lives to protect their students, or classmates. Teachers like
Liviu Librescu and students like
Derek O'Dell and
Zach Petkewicz. Its people like this show that they have/had the courage to do something as bravery like this.
Liviu Librescu gaved up his own life to save his students by blocking the door to his classroom while his students jump out of the windows. And just when his last student made it out the window,
Seung-Hui Cho succeeded in opening the door and shot him to death.
Derek O'Dell got shot in the right arm and quickly thinking right when Cho left the room, O'Dell and his classmate, not identified, slammed the door and held it shut with their feet. Cho tried to get in but did not succeed.
Zach Petkewicz and his ten classmates was aware when they heard a shot fired. At first a coward by hiding behind a podium, he looked up and saw the door. He saw that there was nothing blocking the door and Cho could have easily walk in and killed them. Petkewicz and two other classmates barricade the door with tables
and physically hold it there. Cho, like the O'Dell case, tried to get in but was unsuccessful.
Jaimie64
18:54, 28 July 2007 (UTC)jaimie64
The page should be renamed to "Virginia Tech Shooting", not "Virginia Tech Massacre". Virginia Tech shooting has come to be the most common name for it, and it is a far more neutral name. This was brought up ages ago, but we didn't move it because we were afraid it would start move wars and disrupt the article. Now that it has stabilized, I suggest we should move the whole page to Virginia Tech shooting where it belongs. Titanium Dragon 20:53, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
NOW do you guys see why I didn't want to reopen this can of worms? Oy. We're gonna be having 2k arguments shot back and forth over this for a month and end up exactly where we started, with no consensus, no agreement, and people cranky at each other again... Rdfox 76 23:22, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
a later (albeit redundant) response: Since Max seemed to have missed the fact that I've already answered this question, I will post again and make sure the point is as clear as possible. It is my unwavering belief that every word you have found to bring fuller meaning to "massacre" (with the exception of the reference to slaughtering animals) is attributable to this event. Let me give you some examples:
All this aside, please let it be known that I support the renaming of this article to Virginia Tech shootings if and when it can be demonstrated that there is support for (or minimally, lack of strong dissent to) the renaming of other articles on school-related attacks with fewer fatalities using the word "massacre". HokieRNB 02:43, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Titanium - I would like to respond to your comment that the word massacre "is SELDOM applied to situations such as this". Please refer to the articles for California State University, Fullerton library massacre, Cologne school massacre, Columbine High School massacre, Dunblane massacre, École Polytechnique massacre, Jonesboro massacre, Osaka school massacre, Red Lake High School massacre. All had significantly fewer fatalities (7, 11, 15, 18, 15, 5, 8, and 10, respectively). In US history, only the Bath School disaster was deadlier - note that its title is not Bath School bombings. HokieRNB 19:54, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm a little wary of making determinations of the POV-ness of a name, considering that in certain circles, the name American Civil War is unacceptably POV. While I don't agree with this myself, I think one could argue that "shootings" is POV because it minimizes the horror or badness or whatever of the event. Given this, I think we should follow the general Wikipedia rule of using the most common name. I'm not sure of another way to determine what the most common name is, other than google search results, simply because less than a year has passed and the dust hasn't really settled. So without another compelling reason to use "massacre" I'm okay with switching to shootings. Natalie 17:19, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Here's what I believe is unfortunate about this discussion. This article recently went through a featured article review. It failed, but there were numerous suggestions for its improvement, which I summarized here. At no point in that discussion was changing the title raised as an important improvement. So while much energy and time has been expended on this debate, very little energy and time has been put into making the suggested improvements that would, in my opinion and in the eyes of the editors who participated in the featured article review, truly improve the article. Dismissing the relevance of precedents is also singularly unconvincing to me, as one can assume that consensus was established through equally careful discussion on other articles. Both actions (ignoring the prioritized list of suggested improvements and dismissing as irrelevant the consensus for use of the term "massacre" on other articles) seem counter to the consensus process so valued on Wikipedia. I'm with HokieRNB on this one; I think the title should stand. -- Sfmammamia 00:18, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to point out that Wikipedia has pretty clear guidelines for resolving naming conflicts. Following the specific guidelines there for the Google test, "Virginia Tech massacre" is still the most common name. Here is the current Google test result, as of today:
-- Sfmammamia 16:21, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is done on all pages of a similar nature, but to me it reads and looks like a top trumps card, why is what gun used of such particular importance? Its way above my head to change it, just wonering waht others think.
Since there has been some debate on the VT gun ban, particularly whether the presence of other people carrying guns would have reduced or even prevented the killings, has there been any debate about the gun ban in general? I mean rather then considering just this one incident, considering the ban in general. Like what effect, if any, the ban has had on violent crime in VT. (Since for example, even if the presence of students with guns had reduced the killings in this incident, if it also leads to an overall increase in violent crime or in killings in particular, it might not be worth it. Or vice versa.) Of course this probably doesn't belong here, perhaps Virginia Tech campus but I thought I'd mention it here since people who've been following the debate are far more likely to be checking out this talk page Nil Einne 16:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good way to reach some consensus on the title of the article... let's make a simultaneous proposal to change the names of all the following school-related attacks:
Alternatively, we could just drop the issue and admit that on wikipedia and in the eyes of the general public even neutral words have the ability to evoke emotion (e.g. disaster). HokieRNB 17:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
First off, I could challenge you to change the name of several hundred articles which use the title shooting rather than massacre. This is farcical; I know as someone who went to Virginia Tech you have a strong POV on the issue, but you're being unreasonable. Second, some of these have legitimate names.
Ect.
The reality is that a lot of these are very arguably in the wrong place, but I do not pay much attention to these pages in general; I only read them incidentally, and am only involved to keep propaganda and junk off Wikipedia. Maybe after this article is changed I'll go through and examine their names and see if they should be moved and talk about it, but each is a different article. For instance, the Boston massacre is the primary name of that event by far, precisely because it was a propaganda tool; this is nowhere near as well established and it seems that the propagandaists are losing in general. I think that this article should go with the neutral name, and THIS is the article we need to deal with now. I think that articles should be named appropriately and neutrally. Titanium Dragon 04:44, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Um, Titanium, people have spent pages arguing with a straight face "that massacre isn't a loaded term". That's exactly the argument. We've shown through the definition itself that the events at Virginia Tech are precisely what the word massacre means. We've shown through more than a dozen similar articles that when similar things happen at other schools, it is often referred to as a massacre. As of this morning, there are still more than 150 current news references to the term "Virginia Tech massacre". What you have just described is "Original Research". I really can't believe that you are suggesting we all go out and ask our friends "What do you call the incident that occurred at Virginia Tech?" Why don't we just set up a Facebook poll? I stand by my former recommendation. Begin changing some of the less controversial and less frequently edited articles about incidents with fewer casualties and less press coverage, and see what the result is. If over time these articles stand without the "massacre" title, then I think you'll have a better case to make for renaming this one. HokieRNB 11:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
HokieRNB 20:44, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Explain upfront: Many people will first make an edit, and then explain it on the talk page. Somehow there will always be some fast-off-the-hip reverter who manages to revert you right in the middle. To try to prevent this, reverse the order, first edit the talk page, and then make your edit. People respond more slowly on talk pages.
Evidence suggests that he may have rehearsed for the attack Source 1, Source 2. Please incorporate this into the article, if possible. BlueAg09 ( Talk) 18:24, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
There are nationwide and campus specific movements to permit concealed carry permit holding students to carry on campus as they would be able to off campus. This movement, which has been covered by all the major news networks, is being wholly overlooked here on Wikipedia to the point where I'm tempted to question the Neutrality of this article. [14] [15] -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 04:42, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
Well here's some refs, both national, outlining movements for and against concealed carry on campus:
For:
Against:
These are just a few. There are several more describing movements on both sides. Wrad 19:11, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello, in light of the tremendous job that the editors of this article did on detailing the tragic events that happen here without becoming a memorial to the victims, I was wondering if we could get some editorial assistance on the Anna Svidersky article. On that talk page there is discussion about whether or not the article crosses the line into becoming a memorial. I pointed to the example on this page of Virginia_Tech_Massacre#Other_responses and how that was able to note the memorials and public reaction without crossing a line into becoming a tribute itself. Similarly I would say an excellent job was done in the "resistance section" and at List of victims of the Virginia Tech massacre in maintaining encyclopedic focus and not becoming a tribute. Any outside view would be appreciated. I see great potential in the Anna Svidersky article and I would like to see it reach the level of writing as this article. Agne Cheese/ Wine 04:43, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
It's very clear that this could have, and should have been prevented within the scope of the mental health system yet this Wikipedia article places undue weight on the gun control debate simply because it is a lightning rod issue and guns are easier to attack than health care. Today's (Aug 27, 2007) front page Washington Post article is the smoking gun (no pun intended):
Fairfax County school officials determined that Seung Hui Cho suffered from an anxiety disorder so severe that they put him in special education and devised a plan to help, according to sources familiar with his history, but Virginia Tech was never told of the problem. [17]
I would like to avoid tagging this article. Please reassess the opening paragraphs. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 21:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Citation #10 references Ted Nugent. You couldn't ask for a better pro-gun strawman. For that, I'm tagging the article. -- Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 21:15, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
The intro highlights only anti-gun policies. The intro should at least highlight something pro-gun that came out of this via concealed carry movements, or am I missing something. Wrad 18:06, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
I recently removed nearly identical text to what has been added here because it references the results of Gov. Kaine's panel, which is already covered elsewhere. There was a similiarly titled section long ago that was removed, I believe, because it was considered unencyclopedic and possibly POV. Is this topic of sufficient import to merit it's own section? I would say no but think it deserves some more feedback. Ronnotel 18:02, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
New panel reports have been released that specifically cite Inaction by Virginia Tech administration in regards to deaths at virginia tech. Panel findings have confirmed that had Virginia Tech officials had done SOMETHING after the first shootings at the school, fewer people would have died in the massacre. This proves that Virginia Tech administration was partially to blame for the deaths involved at Norris Hall and that light should be shed upon this subject. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
24.13.244.119 (
talk) 18:33, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
Many people ARE putting blame onto virginia tech's administration for sitting on the sidelines and being indecisive about how to secure a college campuses when a murderer is on the loose. Campus beuracracy caused the unneccesary death of several people on the campus. There is an entire section in this article based upon how gun control may have been an issue in the massacre that is very POV related, yet I don't see anyone deleting the section on gun control.
The issue of virginia tech's inaction to the death's on it's campus has been a hot topic since day one. So far this article mentions nothing about it besides minor references hidden within articles relating to governmental bueracracy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.244.119 ( talk) 18:51, August 30, 2007 (UTC)
No one has made any attempt to address anything other than point out a few pseudo-pov errors that I have already corrected. Rather than simply deleting a section with relevant and current information, someone should make an attempt at article improvement rather than incessant nit-picking over minor details.
And as far as being unencyclopaedic, this is an article based upon a current and ongoing event, which in itself strays from normal unencyclopaedic content. And as far as logging reverts, I have began logging your reverts as well as your actions are also in violation as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.13.244.119 ( talk) 19:18, August 30, 2007 (UTC)