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Stalking is a serious issue particularly on college campuses. The narrative in the section on Cho's motives alluded to his stalking female students and disturbing behavior in the classroom. The section was probably deleted to make the article shorter, but by making the article shorter it left out valuable information that may prevent further death. By minimizing the importance of stalking incidents, females do not report the incidents, do not go to court to get a protection order, no action is taken against the stalker (including serious psychiatric intervention) and sometimes this leads to deadly consequences. In fact, if only a single female were killed by a stalker or a domestic violence incident, there would not even be a reference in Wikipedia. In some jurisdictions, reports of stalking result in legal intervention and in others multiple reports accumulate and no action is taken. If more follow-up had been done in 2005 when the first complaints were made against Cho perhaps 33 more people would be alive today. Cherylyoung 10:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This section has a number of NPOV violations and a few statements that are mistaken at best, or false at worse (ie, the quote about high-capacity magazines being illegal under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban -- only the manufacture and sale of new magazines over 10 rounds was illegal under the AWB, possession of old ones was perfectly legal, and they were easy to acquire in any gun or pawn shop, or over the Internet). I'm starting to clean it up, but would like others to pitch in too. -- Tthaas 12:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
First and foremost cleanup to this section would be a clear understanding about so-called "reasonable gun control". The government does not control guns. They only control people. Therefore "reasonable gun control" is really just code-speak for "government control over people", a complete reversal from a government operating under the control and with the consent of the people it governed which formerly existed on the North American continent.
Hindsight has 2020 vision: That said, does Larry Hincker not sound, in retrospect like a complete sock puppet? Lowellt 01:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that what will ultimately happen is that the gun control aspects will be moved to the appropriate (if I do say so) Gun Control Debate page, but I also propose a split page (eventually!) called Media Responses to the VA Tech Shootings. It hink that there is going to be a huge argument about the propriety of NBC and CNN (and shortly thereafter, everybody else) going wall-to-wall with Cho's videos, photographs, writings, and audio clips. This would also be a nice way to fold in the obvious Columbine discussion, ans the media response to THAT incident is likely to be reviewed with the same critical eye. I am not here trying to conduct a debate on the topic, only on where we should put the debate. Haakondahl 06:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that this addition to citation 44 should be removed. There is no evidence that it alludes to Macbeth in any way. If anything, it seems to be a reference to McDonalds:
No wonder your name is McPork - I mean McBeef. While the guys were packing on muscles, you were packing on McDonald's fat, chowing down on three Big Mac's[sic] in three minutes [1]
James Kendall [talk] 16:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this whole section should be moved to its own article or to gun politics. We could include just a sentence like, "These events have renewed the debate on gun control." And that would be all that is necessary. I think this would cut down a lot of the length for this specific article, while retaining the information. So, either creating a Virginia Tech Gun Control Debate article or moving the content to gun politics is what I think we should do to reduce the length. Rooot 16:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
(new user, please be patient) - wow, it may be a Canadian perspective but for the issue of gun control to be considered a wholly SEPARATE issue from what happened? that's a consideration that causes not a little headshaking from our northern perspective. Anyway, to stick to the point of this talk page: here is something very relevant to the article at hand: "Dead Canadian's Daughter to Push for Gun Control" in her mother's name. Her mother was Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, whose French language classroom was the last stand against Cho and who apparently sacrificed her life for her students in barricading the door. It was also the hardest hit, with the fewest survivors, and was the room in which Cho chose to end his life. Her mother was a strong advocate of gun control. Not relevant, eh? This is the link: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/205046 wiki-stikler 19:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
We could cut down the length of the section by getting rid of International media response. Most foreign news editors are even less educated about US gun issues than the US media, and their response is predictably and uniformly negative. Moreover, the influence of the foreign news media on the US gun control debate is probably close to zero. Both of these factors make the International media response not notable, in my opinion. I nominate this sub section for deletion. The US media response will at least have some influence on the gun control debate. Kevinp2 22:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i agree with kevinp2, kinda. I feel that the overall section is relevent and important to the article. But i don't think the section really needs to be that big. There is a lot of useless information, and the section could be cleaned and croped into something worth having- Three ways round 22:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, here is something I recommend deleting. 'On the other side of the issue, the Conservative Voice contrasted the Virginia Tech massacre with the Appalachian School of Law shooting in 2002, when a disgruntled student killed only two students before he was subdued[118] by two other students with personal firearms they had retrieved from their vehicles, declaring that "All the school shootings that have ended abruptly in the last ten years were stopped because a law-abiding citizen—a potential victim—had a gun."'
The Conservative Voice is not a well-known source - Wikipedia doesnt have a page about it. I mean, to put in in a section where all the sources are well-known newspapers/media outlet makes the presence of this source a bit ridiculous. Hahahaha1 22:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Thats now how it works in wikipedia if I am not mistaken. We cant use ridiculous sources just to present one side of the debate. Since you are soo adamant about such a source to be placed there, you are the one that needs to bring another 'well-reputed' source that will point out such a view.
If there is no well-reputed source source, then there should ideally be no place for such a view in the article. Hahahaha1 23:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that I, as a recent VT alumnus who was friends with both a survivor (in the French class where 11 died) and the brother of one of the victims, am disappointed that 1300+ words were given to the gun control debate. Gun control is certainly relevent to the article, and the massacre relevent to the gun control debate, but it strikes an emotional chord with me to see such a large percentage of space (~25-30%) dedicated to what essentially breaks down into politics. Let's not let the fight to balance political opinion distract from the real essence of what happened there. Summarize here, and start a new article - that's my vote on this. David Schroder 16:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the others: there should be a separate article about this incident and gun control. Columbine and the shooting of President Reagan both provoked a great deal of debate about gun control. This will likely be no different. Gregohio 18:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It's just that part alone is good-sized segment of the entire article... HalfShadow 21:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i get your point, i'm just saying to wait a bit for it to calm down- Three ways round 21:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any source for the writings where he explains his motives? There are media reports with brief passages in which he explains why he did what he did, but they are very vague. Maziotis 21:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a link to a "play" that he wrote that got one of his teachers worried. [3] Other than this, it seems that most of his manifesto was video, other than a few scattered notes found in his dorm room. I don't think those have been released yet. Wrad 22:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
yes, I think I understand what you mean. We may never find the "real reasons" as it may not be such a thing. But I think it would be of great interest to understand something about what happened trough his own words. Maziotis 22:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Should we post recent speculations on the news about his mental state. Schizophrenia, etc? Wrad 22:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
no, not till we can source anything. We can't say anything that someone else hasn't already officially said- Three ways round 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Fact of the matter is the shooter had a massive crush on the girl. She probably spoke to him a couple of times and judging by his mental state - he probably fell head over heels for her and started stalking her. Add his mental state and a couple of guns - we have an incident like this.
However this cannot be verified or anything because none of us can show as proof what was going on in the gunman's mind.
So theoretically, the motive for the shooting is unknown but for all practicall purposes, he was stalking a girl whom he had a huge crush on. Hahahaha1 22:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i was under the impression that it was his girlfreind (might be outdated news) but yes. - Three ways round 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I came to my conclusion based on the following information
1) His first victims were the girl and the RA. The chances are high that the RA got killed because he was probably doing his job and telling the shooter to get out of the hall. The killer went on to talk about 'You could have prevented it' or something like that in his video. It would most likely be the girl since he had killed only two people at the time he sent the video.
2) The shooter has a history of stalking women.
3) The girl had a boyfriend(not the shooter) at the time of the shooting. Its there on facebook if anybody wants to verify that.(cant use that for a source - I am just providing info)
Hahahaha1
23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This discussion has been removed. Please see [4] if interested. -- BigDT ( 416) 03:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, not a fan of the too long box, all of the current efforts aimed at "shifting content elsewhere" are proposed for deletion. - Phoe nix 22:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Proposed, but from the looks of it, they're headed towards a "keep" or a "no consensus" result, which, as a practical matter, means that they are kept. And the article is too long. Chunky Rice 23:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps archiving this question. Someone please tell me why, or answer it. It's relevant to this article. There was an image on here yesterday that showed the shooter and another person both wearing masks. The other person appeared to be Caucasian. This image was in the article last night. Does anyone know what happened to it, Where it came from, why it was removed? Wikidudeman (talk) 23:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This really isn't the place for this kind of independent detective work and accusations of assisting a murderer. Chunky Rice 23:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I did see the image at a couple of different points and I believe it has been deleted. I'm not 100% sure of the reason and I don't know who the deleting admin was, but I'm guessing one of three things: obvious copyright violation, no source information, or obvious hoax. Natalie 00:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Ugh. I complained about "heroic actions" yeseterday, and this is the same thing. This is simply not an acceptable name for a section. Remember, Wikipedia is not a memorial. I'm tempted to just delete the entire section. This needs to go. Titanium Dragon 01:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Done. Titanium Dragon 02:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This page and all of its subpages are extremely high visibility right right now. In the interest of putting our best foot forward, what would everyone think about confining xFD and merge tags to talk pages with a central list of discussions being considered kept here? Most articles that are up for deletion aren't exactly high-visibility ones. But these are. Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to keep the templates out of articles? There are enough people looking at this talk page that getting a consensus shouldn't be a problem ... on anything. -- BigDT ( 416) 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just nuked a completely unsourced, speculative, bullshit section stating that "some have claimed" that this incident was staged to provide a justification for the US to attack Korea. Those "some"... they're always claiming crazy things... Natalie 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Curious if anyone can verify the picture inside the classroom is from this specific event. I have not seen it on any other websites or CNN. As stated elsewhere, wonderful work editing. Neutralitybias 02:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There are reports on CTV today that the number of students killed in Couture-Nowak's French class - where the gunman took his life - may be incomplete. Out off 22 students enrolled, apparently only 12 are accounted for: 10 killed, in addition to their teacher, and 2 survivors, now in hospital. The foreign language department head, Richard Shryock, has expressed frustration with his inability to get information about the remaining students and the final moments in that classroom, and fears they may have perished also. Are there any other reports about unaccounted for students? Here is the link for the CTV (Canadian Television Network)report "Gunman committed suicide in Canadian prof's class" http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070419/cho_suicide_070419/20070419?hub=Canada wiki-stikler 03:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why no mention of this name that he took on? It was tatood to his arm and was used in the return address for his package to NBC. Someone should write this up.
No, it hasn't really been that many but it seems like it. Looking at the article, there has been nothing but vandalism for the last two hours and thus I have s-protected the article. I really hate having to protect it, but there has been nothing but vandalism and reverts for a while now. -- BigDT ( 416) 03:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the term “futile attempt” with regards to victim Jocelyne Couture-Nowak efforts to save students, constitute a weasely attempt to slight her inability to prevent the gunman from entering and killing her and students? None of the other victims in the article reference their “futile efforts” as a cause for their deaths. It just seems a little underhanded and snide, but mayarchibe that was the author’s intentions(?). 202.128.1.120 04:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that some of the references no longer link to a relevant article. The TV networks seem to have a bad habit of using the same URL to post different content. -- Uthbrian ( talk) 06:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an online chat forum. As such, it's usually accepted that tributes are not appropriate for talk pages, as seen on talk:Steve Irwin. However, as this article gets an increasing number of search engine hits, users might start posting tributes anyways. The thing is, if we keep removing tributes, people will think that we're pretty insincere. Therefore, I'm thinking about adding the following to the talk page header for now:
Any thoughts on this? -- Ixfd64 09:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
12 references for one sentence is overkill. The most prominent threats should be briefly described individually to better organize the section. Noclip 12:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is the information about picketing one of the student's funeral on the page? Is this really necessary? Zehly 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Please change the headline from "Virginia Tech massacre." It sounds like a horror movie--more fodder for a copycat. Virginia Tech shootings would be sufficient. 72.73.29.201 13:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
People are using this article, esp. in the international media section, to argue for gun control. That is not the purpose of wikipedia. Unless plans are also made to completely end black markets and to close the borders with Mexico, it is not clear such tragedies really can be prevented. Gun-control is a complex topic that should not be merged into this article. We see that making drugs illegal has really kept drugs out of people's hands. This simply is not the forum to discuss such things. Please make this section NPOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.204.182 ( talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There has been no explanation for what part of this section is actually POV, so I'm going to remove the tag. Tagging things as POV requires explaining how the section fails a Wikipedia policy on the talk page, not just a drive-by tagging because you don't agree. Natalie 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Why don't we remove the article altogether since it is obviously biased against the Second Amendment right to bear arms? -- Jhvillegas2 21:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why keep removing the verylong template? Is it because the article is so popular? If people see that it meets the criterion for a verylong article, maybe they will want to contribute to helping us split/prune the article and prettify(tm) it. Zehly 14:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 9 mm, use 9 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 9 mm.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rooot 16:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is this the official motive as believed by law-enforcement? Zehly 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed much of it, as it was a copyvio from [5] - as such it now needs to be expanded. - Halo 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of accuracy, it should be noted that the International Herald Tribune is only sort-of international. It is based in Paris, but is owned by and most of its content provided by the New York Times. Le Monde or AFP would be a better French source. Gregohio 17:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It rather seems that there is an attempt here to censor the massive wave of criticism of US gun laws and culture found in the international media. Read some of it and it will be apparent that much of the world's media considers that the primary story. Gregohio 17:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Halo, you accused me of marking the article as 'off-topic' and then using that fact to support my argument. That's untrue. As you can see from these diffs [6] [7], it was Rooot who added that tag. Please be more careful in making accusations like this. Ronnotel 18:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In Cho's videotaped diatribe that he mailed to NBC he made some statements that sounded to me like quotes from movies or books. My guess was that many of his strange statements were excerpts of "hot phrases" he had acquired over the years and not original. One of Cho's raging comments, "The decision was yours" struck me as such a phrase. Upon a Google search I came across a book with a cover that startled me - it shows a small Asian child on a bus being bullied by a caucasian child. Beside the Asian child's head is a large question mark. I believe it is very possible Cho came across this book at some point in his life and it may prove to be a key in unraveling the reasons for this tragedy. Check out my blog about this to see the book cover. - - When the Monster Breaks You - Cho Seung Hui —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.86.138 ( talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There has been a dispute as to whether the 'package mailed to NBC' incident should be mentioned in the Norris Hall attack section. Since the other pertinent actions of the gunman (some of which doubtless have not been revealed yet) are covered in the section on Cho, I do not think it is appropriate to include something that occurred earlier (namely the mailing) under the Norris Hall section.
Thoughts?- Markm62 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In notes 100, and 108 some of the dates are appearing as red links. Can someone who has some knowledge of the ref formating system fix these? Thanks. JoshuaZ 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Probably off topic, delete if you wish, but here is a timelapse someone made of the VT massacre page on Youtube - Ravedave 19:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
He may have been mentally ill, but surely this is not the motive in itself for the crime? - Phoe nix 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Anyone thing that this should be included in this article?
i'm not sure if it should be included, it's cool to know, but not really relevent to the article- Three ways round 20:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Right now it says that Asperger's Syndrome is a mental illness... This needs to be changed desperately!
People keep reverting my addition of Solana's/EU's statement, is not Voice of America a reliable source or what is the problem? - Lapinmies 20:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm - at one point there was a cite from Merkel speaking on behalf of the EU - it may have been cut as a dupe, not sure. We can add one into the list of countries, but I don't think it merits any special text beyond a footnote. Ronnotel 21:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the introduction is devoted to describing the perpetrator's nationality, race and immigration status in the U.S. Are these facts really the most central data about there is? What about gender, his history of psychological evaluations, his secluded situation in school, etc? The nationalistic focus isn't NPOV. — David Remahl 20:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
How relevant, long-lasting, and uniquely valuable is this section? To me, it seems a standout for deletion. Everybody is "responding" to the incident, and this is likely to go on for some time. Sfmammamia 20:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Strongly Agree. Been trying to cut this stuff down for days now. Ronnotel 21:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Ladies and gentlemen, this talk page is moving at a fairly prodigious rate and, although it's not as fast as it was earlier in the week, it's becoming cumbersome to archive well. I made one effort to selectively go throw and archive only threads that weren't active anymore, but it was trying enough that I didn't attempt it again and I don't believe that anyone else has, either. By engaging the services of MiszaBot, we won't have to do the archiving ourselves and the bot will take care not to archive discussions that are currently active. Do we have a consensus to do this? A Train talk 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Somebody just deleted the picture of him holding up the two guns. I understand why this may have been done because the picture is offensive to victims families. I believe, however, that under the perpetrator section we should have a picture of Cho to the side. Why not put up his student ID photo instead (the first picture that shows up on Cho's article) ? I would but I don't know how to post pictures on Wikipedia. Tocino 5:42 P.M., 20 April 2007 (CST)
Should we protect this page? It has been vandalized several times today. I'm a big believer in "we're a wiki", but this is an article that could be more damaging to Wikipedia's reputation if there was vandalism on it. Just a thought. -- Trumpetband 23:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I say go for it. Put up a proposal for semi-protection. Wrad 00:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
User User:Natalie Erin wrote in a section above:
The edit summary given for Natalie's change was:
My response is that, while the Virgina Tech convocation was notable, George Bush's use of the event as a political stage was not, at least in the context of an article about the Virginia Tech massacre. The article already has a photo of the convocation, and many more relevant photos related to the topic of the article have already been included. The reason given in my edit summary is a clear cut enough reason not to have a picture of George Bush in an article about the Virginia Tech massacre. 204.42.27.110 00:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for the source on the family response quoted to see who specificly said these things and it seems that the source is itself. Could someone please find the real source or elliminate the false circular source and put a 'citation needed' thing there? -youngidealist 68.231.200.13 06:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Cannot be edited 1st paragraph shooter is reffered to as Sueng-hiu cho, when it is Cho seung Hui
Ok, I think it needs to be decided exactly what image will be used on the top of the page, because the previous image of the campus seemed to be just a randob image that didn't really illustrate the event, but the current cell phone video image of students in the building cowering also doesnt seem right. Rodrigue 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, it turned out that this was a non-issue: the hallway photo's license requires mentioning its photographer in the caption. The article's now back to having the mourning one on top. -- Kizor 11:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Other schools' responses can be pared down to a few sentences. Almost every college and university in the United States and many around the world had some kind of response -- a message from the president, a vigil, counseling offered to students, info on how they are prepared to respond to similar attacks, etc. By singling out a few in detail, it implies that these were the only ones. This entire topic can be summed up in a few sentences. Crunch 11:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe you are missing the point. Thousands of other schools are not sending medical experts to VT. Thousands of other schools are not giving free boarding to the virginia state police. Those are notable, relevant, and sourced statements that are highly important reactions. We're not talking about schools saying "We stand with virginia tech". We're talking about schools saying "We stand with virginia tech, and we're sending 15 trauma counselors to treat the students there". There are only a handful of schools doing that, and this is highly notable. Especially, when said psychologists are nationally reknowned experts in traumatology, such as FSU's response. ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 01:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
How is it sexist to use gunman instead of shooter? Cho was a male and therefore a gunman. If we were talking about an unsolved crime where we didn't know who the shooter was, I could see the argument. I'm not really bothered by seeing "shooter," I just question the justification for the change. Lord Bodak 15:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is not saying shooter a bit shootist :-), gunman it is, gunman it should stay. Unless you have authoritative prove that he was transgender, Or what about 'Gunner' not very sexist a term, a load of nonsense. User: Hyades
I know what you mean from your part of the world, anyway starting to go off topic, was meant as a part of this load of 'nonsense' in reference to terms User:Hyades :-)
The way the first line of the section says "Resident Alien of North Korea" right before his name just doesn't sit well with me. That is why I tried removing it twice, but each time I was undid by the same anon. Is it consensus for that to be there? -- Luigi Maniac 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
"Kevin Granata left his third-floor office of Norris Hall and went down to the second floor as the second round of shootings took place. Reportedly he heard a commotion and went into the hallway to see if he could help anyone. He was killed there by Cho."
How is this a "scene of resistance"? It just says he walked into the hallway. It doesn't fit with the other's actions of barracading the doors... SGT 18:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we discuss what should be pruned from this section? I'm not entirely sure which parts people think strays off-topic, so I don't want to just go in and make cuts. Natalie 19:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll take a stab as what I think is on topic:
Ronnotel 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think any of it should be removed. The event is important only because of the impact it has on people - to those intimately involved, it is the murder of people they care for, for those of us a step removed it is the issue of violence in our society - you should not remove the impact the event has from the actual event (consider the article on 9/11 where more than half the article talks about the non-immediate impacts). If the sole reason is the length of the article, there is far more irrelevant information that is included (such as the section on Fox not airing some episode of some TV show, or the individual responses of multiple universities all saying the same thing). Sad mouse 20:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This event was not actually "the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history". I changed it to "one of the deadliest..." because there have been several other massacres with a higher death toll. The Colfax massacre of African-Americans by Ku Klux Klan members in 1873 resulted in 105 deaths. Also, the Sand Creek massacre of 1864 resulted in as many as 185 Cheyenne killed. And the Wounded Knee massacre of 1890 resulted in 300 Dakota Sioux dead. Of course, I don't mean to minimize this tragic event, but it was historically inaccurate the way it was originally worded. I suppose one could make the argument that these are not "modern" events, but I'm not sure what the consensus on that term is. Mycota 21:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the source of Cho's anger was because of shunning. People stopped talking and associating with him out of fear and anger following his two stalking incidents some months earlier. Also, Cho talked about his "imaginary" friends Jelly (KY) and Spanky (Hand), a jocular figure of speech used by Cho to describe masturbation to his two room mates. This was misinterpreted by his roommates to indicate insanity, they ignored him out of fear and isolated him further.
The attempt at reaching out to the two women, was perhaps the first time Cho attempted to break out of his autistic isolation and emotionally connect with another human being. The result was police knocking on his door and a two-day stay in a mental hospital. This pattern seen in some young adults with autism and Asperger's syndrome, its is called "gaining insight". As autism alleviates, the autistic feels lonely and makes their first failed attempts at forming friendships and relationships. Cho's social skills were very poor, his initial attempts at sociality was met with ridicule, fear and persecution.
Cho's mention of Ishmael (Ishmail Ax), who was abandoned to the desert to die, indicates that Cho's predominant emotion was abandonment. If you look at the picture you can see how Cho might of felt. Diamonddavej 22:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Reports of the anguish of his own family, and how they could never get him to talk, tend to deflect the tendency to somehow blame others for his behavior (as he himself has done). However, it's reasonable to conclude that he was improperly diagnosed. He was, essentially, in a world of his own, and would not let anyone in. Wahkeenah 18:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
As suggested in Wikipedia:Article size, I ran a preview of this article with all references removed. Even though I didn't remove all that wasn't "readable prose" (for example, I didn't cut the table of contents, lists or tables), the version without references didn't trigger the longpages warning. Therefore, even though the full wiki text totals out at around 60K give or take a few, readable prose is less than half that, below 32K even. szyslak ( t, c) 23:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Here we go again. Now we have a bullet list of sporting and other tribute reactions -- this has the same problem with recentism as the sporting tributes section, which was deleted earlier per discussion. This will be going on for days, possibly weeks, could we please refrain? Sfmammamia 02:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
now that more information is coming out about Cho Seung-hui's earlier life and problems, the order of the perpetrator section is getting a little wacky. would a subsection under the first sentence or so the deals with the mental/behavorial problems he had through childhood and high school be too much expansion here? Sfmammamia 02:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Norris Hall shootings section now contains details found only in blog postings -- those are the refs cited. I've tried to remove them, but they've been reinstated. Other more experienced editors -- what say you? Sfmammamia 04:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Just saw http://www.virginiatechmassacre.com/ go up as an external link (some sort of charity/support group site). It doesn't really seem to fit the content of the other links, safe to remove? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spencewah ( talk • contribs) 05:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
An article in Slate indicates the gunman went by Seung Cho and that his family used the Americanized form. 209.148.113.42 07:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the current template remain on this page anymore? Not too much more will likely be added, barring a major development. -- AEMoreira042281 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Cho may have been 23 but wasn't his parents still paying tuition? And he probably went back home during the summer! So why weren't they informed that their child was having so much problem at school?? If his parents would have known, they would have pulled him out and none of this killing would have happened. So for the sake of "privacy", 33 people were killed. How silly and stupid. I am quite surprised this issue has barely been raised, but I am quite positive Cho's family are wondering this. 66.171.76.138 14:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The title of reference 86 is wrong - it's President Bush, not former President Clinton. The Link of reference 106 is wrong: should be a short hyphen between 2007 and 04. Seems to be a special character actually. Can someone correct this please? I'am not allowed to ... Daniel.zwink 15:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Columbine massacre occurred on a Tuesday of the third week of April, as did this. Have any sources in compliance with WP:RS seized on this yet? -- AEMoreira042281 15:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC) This happened on a Monday, not a Tuesday, although the week in April is the same.
As was correctly pointed out above, this was not the "deadliest shooting in American history" as has been reported in the media. However, it was the deadliest shooting by a single perpetrator in American history. The media refers to this, accurately I think, as the "most deadly shooting spree in American history." Shouldn't this language be in the first paragraph and not buried in the article?-- Mantanmoreland 16:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed two or three times prior. I think the phrasing "deadliest mass shooting in modern US history", as it existed for about two or three days, is the most accurate, compact way to state this. Modern in the sense it doesn't compare to massacres during past times of war or insurrection, mass shooting in the sense of multiple shooting homicides. Spree has a possible connotation of serial murder to it, which can be avoided with mass shooting. Ronnotel 20:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Somebody on /b/ made a post about killing people at vtech and changed the date to make it look like it was from before the incident. This shop then appeared as fact in a major Swedish (I think) newspaper. This is a pretty big piece of misinformation, maybe it could go in the "false reports" article or something? In b4 some wikifag says "it has something to do with 4chan and is therefor unworthy." -Anonymous
I don't think the amount that where killed at the VT shooting should include him. I would state my reasoning, but I'd rather let you figure it out. To put it very, very, very nicely, he is a piece of crap. The template should be changed to Victims and Shooters or something else. Nwbeeman 20:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
just say 33 dead including the killer/shooter. Makes everyone happy, and it provides the most informations in the smallest space.- Three ways round 23:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this idiotic claim by NBC and ABC and a few other sources should be added to the innacurate media section. For whatever 'railing' should mean, the videos themselves have shown Cho to be someone who likens himself to Jesus, not one who hates Jesus and those who follow him. Religious propaganda like this is damaging and only furthers hate reactions to this incident. Even if Cho is condemning Christians on videos not yet released, his ramblings are either incoherant or only in the sense of the "not true Christians" typical argument. There are other huge propaganda methods being used by major media sources to identify him as a muslim well before that can be known. I haven't heard of a video where he mentions infidels or Muhammad either and Just as well I have never headr of Muslim evangelists being in South Korea. Maybe we should create a "false media page of the virginia tech massare" and add a link here to it, since so many people validly argue that this one page is getting long as it is. Whatever happens we should not sacrifice any valid information entirely. -youngidealist edited: 209.129.85.4 21:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
is this taken into account? -- Striver - talk 21:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
According to the picture "Aerial photo showing location of Norris and West Ambler Johnston Halls." in the first part of the article, would it be possible to locate the post office where the packet to NBC was sent? Also, where was Cho's dormitory? It would give the picture about what distances he had to make between the first shooting and the masacre. (It would give a better insight to the situation, I mean how many more people could spot (and stop) him before he started the killing spree, maybe some police office on the way in between, ect.) Merewyn 21:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This event lends an extra layer of meaning to the expression "going Postal". Wahkeenah 23:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Right now the lead says 17 were injured, and the infobox says 29. Which one is right? Natalie 23:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, the Washington Post says about 30 injured, and a NY Times article from the 18th says 28 injured transported to the hospital, of which two died. So 29 is at least possible, while 17 appears to be a gross understatement.
Articles on several of the victims have been created, and every single one of them has been nominated for deletion. This is starting to get counterproductive. Let us resolve this in a more practical manner: hold a single discussion on whether or not those people would merit separate articles — and this includes the point of whether or not any information that might surface in the next few weeks should be enough to merit a separate article (or should it just be included in this one). If anything, make it two separate discussions: one for the students and another for the faculty. As far as the students are concerned, the situation is rather similar: they were not notable prior to this incident, and have become notable solely in connection with it. This clearly makes it possible for a single decision to be made that would apply to them all. Once this is done, we would be able to apply it immediately — if it is decided that those articles should exist, then any AfD on them would be speedly closed on sight; if it is decided that they shouldn't, then all entries created would be deleted (possibly with any relevant information added being merged into this article).
If we don't do that, then we will end up having to go through +30 AfDs, all with the exact same merit.
Redux
03:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it too early to discuss the lead of this article before rewriting it, or are we waiting for the article to stabilize? Perhaps we should consider developing a brief outline here on the discussion page, summarizing the key points, etc. I'd also like to suggest simplifying first sentence. In my opinion, the present sentence tries a little too hard to cover everything in one go. Something along the lines of "The Virginia Tech massacre occurred on April 16, 2007, on the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University campus in Blacksburg, Virginia" or similar could be a good start, and subsequent sentences further develop the entry. Anyway, the idea here is to discuss the lead in some detail before any edits are made. JordanSealy 08:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The photo to the right has been released under the GFDL. Basically, the PSU student section made a large VT at their college football spring game. -- BigDT ( 416) 13:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave it to others to determine whether they want to try and make use of some of the initial details here [9] at this time, or wait until the full reports are released and digested by the press. W.C. 22:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Two of Cho's plays can be found at this url: http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001 209.212.89.242 17:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
more quotes and refrences from cho's video because i can't edit on this comp
Red Sox played in green jersey's with black VaTech patches to honor the victims of the attacks.
Excerpts from the video message that Cho sent to NBC
"You just loved to crucify me. You loved inducing cancer in my head, terror in my heart, ripping my soul."
"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust fund ... your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough ... to fulfil your hedonistic needs."
"When the time came, I did it. I had to."
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,,2060764,00.html
65.254.5.139 11:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that those quotes, or at least some similar to them, should be included. The guy wasn't born nuts, rightly or wrongly he had big issues with people from better off backgrounds whom he felt were mocking and abusing him. This is how he justified what he did to himself.
Which is exactly what must be done. How can we deal with madmen if we don't know what's going on in their heads. Lunatics generally show warning signs or fixate on certain things, it's how we identify them early, and what better way to spot a lunatic than by being aware of their lunacy so that we know it when we see it.
The foreign media is making something of the fact that he felt (rightly or wrongly) that he was outside of the American Dream, and that people inside it were mocking him, so they think that it's important.
perfectblue 09:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
'Massacre' is too one-sided a term for what took place. A more neutral term like 'killings' or 'shootings' is more appropriate, if indeed the NPOV policy is to be upheld. If you wish to pander to the emotional masses, you would do well to keep it as massacre. Vranak
"Virginia Tech massacre" actually beats "Virginia Tech shooting": 5,609 to 3,718. "Massacre" is in prevalent use in CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, etc. -- Kizor 06:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
According to WP policy, we must use the consensus term that has developed in the media. It's not our place to judge whether it is emotional or not. I think there's strong evidence cited above that the media is settling on Virginia Tech massacre, if it hasn't already. Ronnotel 16:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
My dictionary defines "massacre" as deriving from Old French for "slaughter" and meaning "The killing of a number of human beings under circumstances of atrosity or cruelty." The definition fits this event just fine. Wahkeenah 17:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
the article was originally the 'Virginia Tech Shooting', but near the begining it was moved here. I forget what the reasoning was but it was good enough for it to be moved here, go look at the first couple archives and see if that convinces you- Three ways round 23:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
A mass-killing is actually more likely to be a 'massacre' if it takes place off of a battlefield. A key component of a massacre is that one side is unable to defend itself. Rooot 05:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I take Psychology course in high school we are on the chapter of psychotic illness so after this occured my teacher asked us to figure out what kind was the killer suffering from. i have reached the conclusion of Paranoid Scrizophrenia. But i am still surprised because what would aggrivate him so much that he would do this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Missionimpossible ( talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
Yeah but warning signs don't mix beacuse i heard somewhere he gave warning signs and i am pretty sure after looking up in cnn i didn't find that he was a pyro a warning sign of ASPD thank you though for your help-- Missionimpossible 03:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I hope your teacher has taught you that it's impossible for even a trained expert to come to a conclusion at this point about what mental illness this individual might have been suffering from based only on news reports we now have. --
Crunch
21:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I know it's impossible but we were just guessing --
Missionimpossible
06:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Personal attack removed. Anchoress 22:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Listen I am sorry if i offended you in any way but i don't think i deserve that kind of language.-- Missionimpossible 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he was on a SSRI antidepressant. http://nomorefakenews.com/index.php http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2007/04/19/the_virginia_tech_shootings_a_psychiatric_drug_connection.htm 201.19.199.254 19:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
He could be but i heard he gave warning signs in his english class his teacher went and complained to the university officials also he wrote some sort of a Manifesto and during his interview was heard saying "You made me do this" anti deprresants don't make you delusional, or give warning signs they might make you homicidal or sucidial though.-- Missionimpossible 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
or that: http://www.healyprozac.com/ 201.19.199.254 14:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is for discussing the article. If you'd like to speculate about Cho, that's fine, but this is the wrong place for it. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 21:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Then could you tell me the right page where to go and speculate about him. thank you -- Missionimpossible 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed a sentence saying that it is a taboo in South Korea to discuss mental illness. South Koreans might hesitate to get treatment for mental illness, but it is not a taboo at all to discuss mental illness generally, or anyone's mental problem or illness. -- chunwook 03:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
In the portion of the article mentioning that Cho was bullied in high school, I think it might be relevant to note that his classmates said "Go back to China." The reference about the high school bulling does mention it. Why is this relevant? It just shows that certain segments of the population cannot tell the difference between a Chinese, Japanese, or a Korean. Recall for instance, that several news coporations at first claimed that the perpetuator is a Chinese national. I also remeber WWII posters produced by the US government that tried to let Americans to determine the difference between a Japanese and a Chinese. The main point is that there are racial stereotypes involved, but we don't need to promote this POV except to say that Cho's classmates told him "Go back to China" even though he was for all practical purposes a Korean-American. 61.229.182.23 15:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about this By The Way request: About that "Son of a ..." comment of Cho's elderly relatives, is the Mirror.co.uk new source reliable or is it made up by the media? I would be concerned if it is not from the elderly person as that indicates yet another stereotyping attempt by that media: putting words into someone's mouth as if they claimed doing it! To maintain neutrality of this article please explicitly cite that new source next to that statement rather than at showing the source at the footer. 24.131.202.186 05:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to congratulate editors who worked on the international reactions section. The John Howard part in particular is IMHO a lot better. As I've mentioned before, the CNN characterisation of it as an attack on (decrying) the negative gun culture of the US was clearly inaccurate as if you see what he said (and consider the upcoming election), it's quite obvious what he's trying to say. Nil Einne 16:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Should we list the statuses of the victims? I know 27 were injured. Just by looking at the list you don't know if they are the ones that were killed , injured, or if the list is a combination of both. ShadowWriter 17:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why so many of the dates are redlinked in the ISO format (for me, anyway)? I assume this has to do with the changes recently made (and undone) to the cite web template but I don't know what this would be happening given my (very limited) knowledge of that template. Anyone know what's going on? It looks quite ugly and seems indicative of a larger problem (but perhaps one limited just to me). -- ElKevbo 02:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I object to the following claim in the initial summary paragraph:
"... making it the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history."
This claim is fraught with inaccuracy, inconsistency, and mere opinion. Moreover, ranking the Virginia Tech massacre by body count in the summary does a grave injustice to the seriousness of the event. The Historical context section is accurate, appropriate, and comprehensive in discussing how the event measures up to prior, related events. I advise this claim be removed from only the initial summary of the article.
I know this subject has been discussed "many times" and I understand there was a so-called "consensus"; however:
"Once established, consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind. A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision about an article, but when the article gains wider attention, members of the larger community of interest may then disagree, thus changing the consensus. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision." ( Wikipedia:Consensus)
Adraeus 03:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"Modern US history" is more specific than 1701-2007. That time frame by itself is greater than "US History" as the United States was founded in 1776. So, "modern" should be a subset of "us history." I don't know what would qualify, but my guess would be somewhere since the Industrial Revolution would be termed "modern." 129.237.2.66 16:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed the formatting for the list of victims so that victims are organized by classroom. WhisperToMe 05:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems inappropriate to have a sub-topic like this, I've removed it. It was only one sentence which couldn't really be expanded on and was purely related to gun control which appears later on, at length, in the same article. There was also no need to have a large video thumbnail for such a tiny subtopic, and the link seemed to lead to various videos that had nothing to do with gun control (perhaps spam?). If anyone disagrees with this removal, feel free to reverse, but please reply with a reason :-) Mentality 13:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
For now, I have reverted the title change back to Virginia Tech massacre. This type of change needs to be discussed, first I think. More importantly, it needs to be attributable. I believe the most common usage in the media is Virginia Tech massacre, hence we must use that term as well. I'm open to counter-arguments, but please cite policy when you do so. Thanks. Ronnotel 16:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Nobody calls it Virginia Polytech. It never has been called that. The only people who call it VPI are old people and UVA fans. (Somehow, UVA fans get a rise out of thinking of us as a midmajor. Whatever.) Every single media guide put out by the athletics department has a section called "Just Virginia Tech, please" that explains the proper name to use. See page 4 of [11] for a copy of this statement.
In 1970, the official name of the school was changed from "Virginia Polytechnic Institute" to "Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University". "Virginia Tech" is a recognized "informal" name and, in the interest of not having to write out the full name everywhere, should be used in this article. Anyone changing the a reference to VPI should be politely notified of the correct name. -- BigDT ( 416) 17:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Visit the website here "After the VA Tech Massacre" for photo's that are being added to show more about the campus around VA Tech and the beauty there along with the sadness. Debbie M. 24.254.6.200 18:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
All the graduating students here at bayview wish to send our thought' and prayers to the students and teacher's; Jason-Reigns, Alex-Vicman, Craig-Lewis, Katie-Osban, Timothy-Lane, Hector-Veluzua, Omar-Richardson, Matt-Petterson, Sean-Fritz, Olivia-Brown, Nick-Lumiski, Louie"Too-Tall"Bries, Otto.M.Smith, Veronica-White, Eric-Neirdon, Stacy-Weinberg, Tammie-Waylon, Harrold-Birch, Ellen-Blackwood, Corey-Dechins, Oscar-Perez and student counsel president Cindi-Poloso:The graduating class of 07: agian our best wishes. -Never forget, 4/16/07, VT stand strong! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bayview hs students ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
There's an article on Max Karson, a university student expelled for comments on the massacre, at the University of Colorado. IT's currently at WP:AFD (Articles of Deletion), and some people say it should be merged here. Please leave your opinion. 132.205.44.134 22:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The victims of the massacre currently have their own page, which lists them in relative detail, and a small section in this article, which gives their names in a compact form. The victims page is currently undergoing an AfD and there's been a fair bit of seesawing over how they should be covered. I and Yksin figured that talking things out would be much more productive than undoing each other's work, and that a significant change like this should be discussed in peace.
To reiterate myself from user talk, the names of the victims are quite useful to have in the main article. They provide single-click access to those victims with articles - legit ones, I know student victims' articles are getting zapped as we speak, but several faculty members have passed WP:PROF. (The fairly ugly template with these links is losing its TfD and was removed from the article.)
More importantly, it needs to be mentioned that five faculty members were killed, and the victims section accomplishes that efficiently and elegantly, giving the reader more information at a glance than what could be given in the text without greatly disrupting the text flow. Repeated mentions in the text were clumsy and I saw no real way to improve them. And when at least some of the faculty members have proven independently notable, there's no real point in saying that five were killed and not saying who they were, forcing the reader to hunt for that information. -- Kizor 00:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've said this before, but I'll just reiterate here for the sake of argument. I personally feel that having a separate list for the victims strains the bounds of notability. Being that the size of the list is going to be limited (I doubt it will top 33, and if it does it certainly won't go over 40), there's no chance of it taking over the article. But I find that dropping the list in it's own section in the middle of the article really disrupts the prose and looks rather tacky. Thus, I think we should use a sidebox, ala the Columbine High School massacre and Bath school disaster articles. This will also dis-encourage people from adding crufty, memorial-type information to the list, which can be a concern, and provide a place to link to the professors' articles (4, if I'm not mistaken). As for information in the box, I think it should stick to name, age, faculty position/year in college, and maybe where they were killed. Natalie 01:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As has been noted by more than one person, N is not additive; lumping together a large number of non-notable things is not notable itself. I am one of those who agree that the list of victims is not notable, but that is irrelevant. I don't think their names are necessary; it is obviously important to note that people were killed, and their names could be used inline if some narrative of the events comes to be, but a list is just gratuitious. A list of names is entirely meaningless and unremarkable unless the names in that list are remarkable unto themselves, and in this event, it seems there were two people max who died who were important enough to merit articles. Titanium Dragon 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If there was a vote, I would've voted remove section. It's too much. -- Jambalaya 20:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the section should be removed because there is a separate article specifically for the list. The link to that article is all that is necessary. Rooot 06:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to mention the shooter's nation of birth in the lead of this article? It doesn't seem to be important enough for this article. -- ElKevbo 19:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Do we say, "The Columbine massacre was committed by natural-born American citizens Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold?" szyslak ( t, c) 20:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
the lead is supposed to breifly summerise the entire article/event. it's made to basically answer all the basic questions, and give someone the just of what happened. i think that right now it's doing that. i think we hsould just leave it alone- Three ways round 20:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
How much does a person remember up to age 8? (I personally don't remember much). By indicating this killer is a Korean immigrant without specifying "Up to age 8" or "immigrated to USA at age 8" is not alright. By not clarifying only 2 out of 17 of his schooling years occurred in Korea, a blank statement on his nationality mislead some into anti-immigrantation sentiment. -- HtcWiki 20:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with HtcWiki; by expounding upon the fact that the shooter is a Korean National, it seems that there might be a push to shift the blame away from America. However a person living in a country for 8 years, then living the next 15 years in America, it seems that the shooter was raised and heavily influenced in an American environment. I am not saying that this article should exclude the nationality identification of the shooter, but to not make a big deal such as constantly tagging "Korean National" after the word shooter. This tagging has been done in news to create more shock and awe appeal, for ratings, but let's keep wikipedia more about the information, and less about entertainment. Pgaru 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Keep if for no other reason than the Korean government and public made it an issue. The President issued an apology - even if it was not necessary the Korean public he appeared genuinely ashamed of the event. Kransky 01:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I am unhappy about how Korea's action was portrayed as "shock and sense of public shame". The shock is reasonable but stating that the nation of Korea has public shame does not seem right. Many other individuals commit crimes, yet there is no national shame for that matter. Therefore by saying Korea has national shame for this one person who lived most of his life in America, the statement is implying that Korea is trying to appease the world and almost saying that it is Korea's fault. I do not think public shame should be added, unless the nation of Korea was to blame. Pgaru 21:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The New York Times has done an article on this page. Good work everyone, all 2,074 of us! - Ravedave 06:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Nice quote Miikka. I really like it. -- 155.52.25.46 18:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of full disclosure, I think it would be nice if Noam Cohen, the author of the NY Times article, would indicate whether he has been an editor of this article. Not that I think anything sinister is going on - but I, for one, would like to know whether any of my fellow editors are about to write an article like this. I also wonder how many professional MSMers might be contributing to these pages in their spare time. Anyone else feel the same? Ronnotel 18:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Arguably one of the most mitigating factors along with his mental illness. Why does the article make no mention of this? DutchSeduction 07:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Nor'easter is simply how a certain region pronounces the actual word northeaster. It's a slang term. Wikipedia should not adopt a colloquial New England dialect in a formally written encyclopedic article.
'Northeaster' is more accurate and more understandable to any reader outside the eastern United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.169.8.199 ( talk) 17:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
Currently the top infobox says:
I see these as gross assumptions. I'm still somewhat new to wikipedia and am finding it difficult to search the discussion archives for this topic. Was this motive arrived at through discussion? I note that the article on the Columbine shootings still says, "Motive: Unclear". Other views? Sfmammamia 20:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
An editor (perhaps more than one) keeps inserting a reference to Kangalert.com in the middle of the "Law enforcement response" subsection. The editor who has most recently inserted this link wrote on my Talk page that "i just came accross the link a few days ago in the news and thought it was pertinent there. I know it could appear as linkspam, but i figure people's lives could be at stake in the future if we DON'T include it."
I object to using this article as a means of advertising this or any other product. I have removed the reference several times and I ask editors to (a) cease from inserting this material and (b) remove it if it inserted again. Unless there is a clear connection between this company and this incident, it should not be in this article and certainly not slapped in the middle of that section. If there is such a connection that I have missed, I apologize. But right now it looks like old fashioned spam and unwelcome advertisement that has no place in this or any other encyclopedia article. --
ElKevbo
20:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I respecfully disagree with ElKevbo, for I am in law enforcement and part of the problem that the Virginia Tech Administration and campus safety faced was there inability to communicate with the students in real - time. The kanga link does look like spam at first - but there are a few reasons it is not: I think there was something like a two hour delay before the students got an EMAIL. As editors of wikipedia it is our job to ensure that pertinent information is delivered to our readers, ESPECIALLY if it could save lives. We are not even sure that this incident is completely over, threats continue to surface nationwide [12].
Editors should insert the kanglink because:
- students have a right to know about this type of company - law enforcement personell have the right to know about about this type of company - its not linkspam if we include other companies like kangalert who can notify students in the event of a crisis. - there is a clear connection between this company and the incident
its a bit like trying to talk about the world trade center incident without mentioning Guilianni. If we try to censor out Guilianni from 9-11 we have done our readers an injustice, just as if we try to censor kangalert. I am not saying that kangalert is the 07 equivilant of a Guilianni, I am saying it just looks suspicious when ElKevbo perhaps wants to supress information that could help.-- 65.214.112.56 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
recently, MyDeathSpace.com posted a list of the victims, including Ryan Clarke. the link is here. do you think we should post these? Nocarsgo 22:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The reference for the following paragraph doesn't support the statement (about the Korean car accident involving the US military vehicle):
-- Anchoress 03:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The photo with 2 guns looks like a movie. Do we want more "stars" like this? I don't think we should participate in mass murderer's self-promotion. Even sensationalist media outlets that showed his video had second thoughts. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 03:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know if indeed the guns were purchased legally? I ask because I heard somewhere Cho lied on his background check about whether he had mental health issues. If he lied, the purchase was not legal. Might be a technicality, but even minor details are important in cases like these. 66.57.224.66 03:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC) del
under other media responses, it notes that the CV claims other school shootings ended abrubtly when armed citizens took action, however going thru the records of all shootings to occur on college campuses, there has only been 1 such case. I think if Wiki is gonna echo this agendaed claim, we must also provide an accurtae portrayl in order to retain credibilty.
Yes, but the question is out of those 22 shootings, how many times did a student or faculty member have a gun and face the shooter? It's talking about shootings that were abruptly ended, not shootings in general.
In the same vien, the majority of these shootings end 'abrubtly' when the attacker turns the gun on himself. I think there's like another 2 or 3 in which police subdue the assailent. Likewise, I only examined college campus shootings.
I had this same point. I think by any reasonable definition of abrupt, we can say the CV's generalisation is incorrect. If they are using an unreasonable definition of abrupt... I think this quote should be removed and replaced with one that is not making unverifiable claims. Good to see you bring it up here, rather than stealth delete as is being done to the international media section in a piecemeal fashion. Sad mouse 04:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes I absolutley agree. I'm not sure what the proper procedure here is, but I would like the attention of an admin on this manner. We've pointed out the falliblity of the claim, let alone the insensitive nature of it.
I'm not an admin but I do believe it's time to pull the CV quote. 1) it's simply not true and even though it's presnted as a claim, at least some context must be provided 2) it's incredibley insenstive 3) the consevative voice is not a realiable or notable news source IBelieveThat 20:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that it is necessary to shorten this article at all, but that being said, I see too many people stripping valuable information from the massare article because they want to tell others where it belongs. I removed the excess on the masacre to nothing but a link to the inaccurate media reports article because while I'm against it, I am even more against the idea of having only a few posted here. We should post something about all or none of the contentions in inaccurate media reports on this page. Please respond and discuss here before changing it again. Youngidealist 04:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Content forking In applying summary style to articles, care must be taken to avoid a POV fork (that is, a split which results in the original article and/or the spin-off violating NPOV), and/or a difference in approach between the summary and the spin-off, etc. See: Wikipedia:Content forking, Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles.
Where an article is long, and has lots of subtopics with their own articles, try to balance parts of the main page. Do not put overdue weight into one part of an article at the cost of other parts. In shorter articles, if one subtopic has much more text than another subtopic, that may be an indication that that subtopic should have its own page, with only a summary presented on the main page.
If the summary is missing something, you can rewrite it rather than deleting it outright. The style guideline states that there should be a summary paragraph; what you changed it to doesn't follow that guideline. Phony Saint 05:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The inaccurate media reports on this article are supposed to be a summary of what is on the main article. I placed the points that I removed in the talk section of the main article so that they would not be lost or forgotten. Please discuss and add to the main article before adding to this article's section. - Youngidealist 23:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There were numerous inaccurate statements in the media, I would suggest that only the most notable make it to the article, with petty mistakes going into a sub article (if anyone is bothered to accumulate petty mistakes). Besides the one listed, two highly notable (made by major news sources, repeated by secondary sources and used as reasoning in suggesting motive) were absent, I added them as follows. Sad mouse 01:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the subarticle was deleted as noted at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Sneed. Its AfD raised some concerns such as verifiability: that is, nobody has written an article on the inaccuracies themselves. Phony Saint 02:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed " Chicago Sun-Times columnist Michael Sneed was cited as the source of initial reports by news outlets such as WBBM, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, and the Herald Sun that the gunman was a "24-year-old Chinese man" who had come to the US on August 7 2006, arriving in San Francisco on a United Airlines flight, on a student visa issued in Shanghai. Sneed herself did not identify her source for that information. NBC News additionally reported that the gunman was not a student at Virginia Tech." from the first dot-point, since the original source of the error and the details are less important. For a brief summary it is probably sufficient to just say the wrong person was first identified. Sad mouse 03:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Much thanks to both of you, Sad mouse and Phoeny Saint. I was almost unhinged when I saw that he main article was deleted, but I am releived to find that both of you have fixed up the section on it, and even made it better than the earlier summaries. Youngidealist 05:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I still do not see the significance of the Ismail/Ishmael reporting error. Has the spelling discrepancy somehow biased the coverage? If so, we need a sentence that explains that impact and a reference that indicates what effect the error has had. Otherwise, I think that bullet should be deleted (again, as I was the one who deleted it earlier). Sfmammamia 05:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the Inaccurate section again, it's completely original research. Barring any reliable articles specifically written about the errors, I don't think we can include any of it. (I don't really consider the People's Daily to be reliable either, although we could include it if we must.) Phony Saint 17:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
An Opinion Dynamics poll recently found that 76 percent of Americans believe stricter gun laws would not help to prevent shootings like this in the future. Since this constitutes a very strong majority, in light of the gun control debate presented in this article it might be worthy to mention this somewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 ( talk) 13:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
This might be a better poll because they ask the same question in a number of different ways (plus CBS/NYT is more reliable).... http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/poll-on-gun-control/
Congratulations to those who have contributed to this article as your efforts have given significant credibility to Wikipedia: [14]
-- Jreferee 15:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
In true Wikipedia fashion, I must caution that it's all the same story, picked up by multiple sources. And multiple citations don't necessarily add credibility. But that's a whole other discussion I suppose. -- Crunch 19:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wiki policy is to avoid self references. Best to leave it out, I think. Ronnotel 01:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Good policy. I agree. -- Crunch 19:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
An editor has repeatedly inserted text into the "Responses from other educational institutions" subsection about the reaction at Ohio State University. Other editors have repeatedly removed that text. The most recent version of the text in question reads:
The Ohio State University President Karen A. Holbrook released a statement that is linked from the university's homepage since the day of the shootings and that was sent out in a campuswide email to students and faculty on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 shortly before campus cable networks began practicing new emergency broadcast tests. She asserts that "Ohio State stands ready to provide any assistance to Virginia Tech that they may identify in the days to come." [8] Furthermore, OSU police released information on their preparedness for dealing with similar situations that featured local news coverage and front page newspaper coverage. [9]
I am one of the editors who has removed the text (twice, I think) and I have asked the editor who has inserted the text to please discuss this here on the Talk page. I assert that OSU's reaction is not sufficiently different from the reactions at hundreds of other institutions to warrant inclusion in this article. It is not enough that the president of OSU has offered to provide assistance as many other institutions have done likewise. Further, as OSU has not actually provided material support, it does not warrant inclusion along with other institutions who have.
I recognize that the inclusion of the Penn State tribute may be seen as contradictory to my position and I acknowledge the perceived disconnect. That material has already been considerably shortened from its original form but I would not object if someone were to remove it completely. That there is a very nice GFDL-licensed photograph of hundreds, perhaps thousands of PSU students actively participating in the described events makes it an attractive addition to this article. -- ElKevbo 21:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The Ohio State University has offered "to provide any assistance to Virginia Tech that they may identify in the days to come." [10]
The above is uniform with the other universities there, but as the person above me stated, OSU also appeared on the front page of USA Today and had various other events, discussions, activities, etc. that make the university's response more than minor and at least notable like those others mentioned. -- Horace Horatius 03:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | → | Archive 15 |
Stalking is a serious issue particularly on college campuses. The narrative in the section on Cho's motives alluded to his stalking female students and disturbing behavior in the classroom. The section was probably deleted to make the article shorter, but by making the article shorter it left out valuable information that may prevent further death. By minimizing the importance of stalking incidents, females do not report the incidents, do not go to court to get a protection order, no action is taken against the stalker (including serious psychiatric intervention) and sometimes this leads to deadly consequences. In fact, if only a single female were killed by a stalker or a domestic violence incident, there would not even be a reference in Wikipedia. In some jurisdictions, reports of stalking result in legal intervention and in others multiple reports accumulate and no action is taken. If more follow-up had been done in 2005 when the first complaints were made against Cho perhaps 33 more people would be alive today. Cherylyoung 10:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This section has a number of NPOV violations and a few statements that are mistaken at best, or false at worse (ie, the quote about high-capacity magazines being illegal under the Federal Assault Weapons Ban -- only the manufacture and sale of new magazines over 10 rounds was illegal under the AWB, possession of old ones was perfectly legal, and they were easy to acquire in any gun or pawn shop, or over the Internet). I'm starting to clean it up, but would like others to pitch in too. -- Tthaas 12:20, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
First and foremost cleanup to this section would be a clear understanding about so-called "reasonable gun control". The government does not control guns. They only control people. Therefore "reasonable gun control" is really just code-speak for "government control over people", a complete reversal from a government operating under the control and with the consent of the people it governed which formerly existed on the North American continent.
Hindsight has 2020 vision: That said, does Larry Hincker not sound, in retrospect like a complete sock puppet? Lowellt 01:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that what will ultimately happen is that the gun control aspects will be moved to the appropriate (if I do say so) Gun Control Debate page, but I also propose a split page (eventually!) called Media Responses to the VA Tech Shootings. It hink that there is going to be a huge argument about the propriety of NBC and CNN (and shortly thereafter, everybody else) going wall-to-wall with Cho's videos, photographs, writings, and audio clips. This would also be a nice way to fold in the obvious Columbine discussion, ans the media response to THAT incident is likely to be reviewed with the same critical eye. I am not here trying to conduct a debate on the topic, only on where we should put the debate. Haakondahl 06:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that this addition to citation 44 should be removed. There is no evidence that it alludes to Macbeth in any way. If anything, it seems to be a reference to McDonalds:
No wonder your name is McPork - I mean McBeef. While the guys were packing on muscles, you were packing on McDonald's fat, chowing down on three Big Mac's[sic] in three minutes [1]
James Kendall [talk] 16:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this whole section should be moved to its own article or to gun politics. We could include just a sentence like, "These events have renewed the debate on gun control." And that would be all that is necessary. I think this would cut down a lot of the length for this specific article, while retaining the information. So, either creating a Virginia Tech Gun Control Debate article or moving the content to gun politics is what I think we should do to reduce the length. Rooot 16:35, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
(new user, please be patient) - wow, it may be a Canadian perspective but for the issue of gun control to be considered a wholly SEPARATE issue from what happened? that's a consideration that causes not a little headshaking from our northern perspective. Anyway, to stick to the point of this talk page: here is something very relevant to the article at hand: "Dead Canadian's Daughter to Push for Gun Control" in her mother's name. Her mother was Jocelyne Couture-Nowak, whose French language classroom was the last stand against Cho and who apparently sacrificed her life for her students in barricading the door. It was also the hardest hit, with the fewest survivors, and was the room in which Cho chose to end his life. Her mother was a strong advocate of gun control. Not relevant, eh? This is the link: http://www.thestar.com/News/article/205046 wiki-stikler 19:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
We could cut down the length of the section by getting rid of International media response. Most foreign news editors are even less educated about US gun issues than the US media, and their response is predictably and uniformly negative. Moreover, the influence of the foreign news media on the US gun control debate is probably close to zero. Both of these factors make the International media response not notable, in my opinion. I nominate this sub section for deletion. The US media response will at least have some influence on the gun control debate. Kevinp2 22:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i agree with kevinp2, kinda. I feel that the overall section is relevent and important to the article. But i don't think the section really needs to be that big. There is a lot of useless information, and the section could be cleaned and croped into something worth having- Three ways round 22:36, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, here is something I recommend deleting. 'On the other side of the issue, the Conservative Voice contrasted the Virginia Tech massacre with the Appalachian School of Law shooting in 2002, when a disgruntled student killed only two students before he was subdued[118] by two other students with personal firearms they had retrieved from their vehicles, declaring that "All the school shootings that have ended abruptly in the last ten years were stopped because a law-abiding citizen—a potential victim—had a gun."'
The Conservative Voice is not a well-known source - Wikipedia doesnt have a page about it. I mean, to put in in a section where all the sources are well-known newspapers/media outlet makes the presence of this source a bit ridiculous. Hahahaha1 22:43, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Thats now how it works in wikipedia if I am not mistaken. We cant use ridiculous sources just to present one side of the debate. Since you are soo adamant about such a source to be placed there, you are the one that needs to bring another 'well-reputed' source that will point out such a view.
If there is no well-reputed source source, then there should ideally be no place for such a view in the article. Hahahaha1 23:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to add that I, as a recent VT alumnus who was friends with both a survivor (in the French class where 11 died) and the brother of one of the victims, am disappointed that 1300+ words were given to the gun control debate. Gun control is certainly relevent to the article, and the massacre relevent to the gun control debate, but it strikes an emotional chord with me to see such a large percentage of space (~25-30%) dedicated to what essentially breaks down into politics. Let's not let the fight to balance political opinion distract from the real essence of what happened there. Summarize here, and start a new article - that's my vote on this. David Schroder 16:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the others: there should be a separate article about this incident and gun control. Columbine and the shooting of President Reagan both provoked a great deal of debate about gun control. This will likely be no different. Gregohio 18:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It's just that part alone is good-sized segment of the entire article... HalfShadow 21:18, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i get your point, i'm just saying to wait a bit for it to calm down- Three ways round 21:42, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know of any source for the writings where he explains his motives? There are media reports with brief passages in which he explains why he did what he did, but they are very vague. Maziotis 21:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Here is a link to a "play" that he wrote that got one of his teachers worried. [3] Other than this, it seems that most of his manifesto was video, other than a few scattered notes found in his dorm room. I don't think those have been released yet. Wrad 22:05, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
yes, I think I understand what you mean. We may never find the "real reasons" as it may not be such a thing. But I think it would be of great interest to understand something about what happened trough his own words. Maziotis 22:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Should we post recent speculations on the news about his mental state. Schizophrenia, etc? Wrad 22:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
no, not till we can source anything. We can't say anything that someone else hasn't already officially said- Three ways round 22:28, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Fact of the matter is the shooter had a massive crush on the girl. She probably spoke to him a couple of times and judging by his mental state - he probably fell head over heels for her and started stalking her. Add his mental state and a couple of guns - we have an incident like this.
However this cannot be verified or anything because none of us can show as proof what was going on in the gunman's mind.
So theoretically, the motive for the shooting is unknown but for all practicall purposes, he was stalking a girl whom he had a huge crush on. Hahahaha1 22:31, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
i was under the impression that it was his girlfreind (might be outdated news) but yes. - Three ways round 22:38, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I came to my conclusion based on the following information
1) His first victims were the girl and the RA. The chances are high that the RA got killed because he was probably doing his job and telling the shooter to get out of the hall. The killer went on to talk about 'You could have prevented it' or something like that in his video. It would most likely be the girl since he had killed only two people at the time he sent the video.
2) The shooter has a history of stalking women.
3) The girl had a boyfriend(not the shooter) at the time of the shooting. Its there on facebook if anybody wants to verify that.(cant use that for a source - I am just providing info)
Hahahaha1
23:08, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This discussion has been removed. Please see [4] if interested. -- BigDT ( 416) 03:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Ahh, not a fan of the too long box, all of the current efforts aimed at "shifting content elsewhere" are proposed for deletion. - Phoe nix 22:58, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Proposed, but from the looks of it, they're headed towards a "keep" or a "no consensus" result, which, as a practical matter, means that they are kept. And the article is too long. Chunky Rice 23:03, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Someone keeps archiving this question. Someone please tell me why, or answer it. It's relevant to this article. There was an image on here yesterday that showed the shooter and another person both wearing masks. The other person appeared to be Caucasian. This image was in the article last night. Does anyone know what happened to it, Where it came from, why it was removed? Wikidudeman (talk) 23:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
This really isn't the place for this kind of independent detective work and accusations of assisting a murderer. Chunky Rice 23:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I did see the image at a couple of different points and I believe it has been deleted. I'm not 100% sure of the reason and I don't know who the deleting admin was, but I'm guessing one of three things: obvious copyright violation, no source information, or obvious hoax. Natalie 00:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Ugh. I complained about "heroic actions" yeseterday, and this is the same thing. This is simply not an acceptable name for a section. Remember, Wikipedia is not a memorial. I'm tempted to just delete the entire section. This needs to go. Titanium Dragon 01:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Done. Titanium Dragon 02:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This page and all of its subpages are extremely high visibility right right now. In the interest of putting our best foot forward, what would everyone think about confining xFD and merge tags to talk pages with a central list of discussions being considered kept here? Most articles that are up for deletion aren't exactly high-visibility ones. But these are. Does anyone else think it would be a good idea to keep the templates out of articles? There are enough people looking at this talk page that getting a consensus shouldn't be a problem ... on anything. -- BigDT ( 416) 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just nuked a completely unsourced, speculative, bullshit section stating that "some have claimed" that this incident was staged to provide a justification for the US to attack Korea. Those "some"... they're always claiming crazy things... Natalie 02:52, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Curious if anyone can verify the picture inside the classroom is from this specific event. I have not seen it on any other websites or CNN. As stated elsewhere, wonderful work editing. Neutralitybias 02:57, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There are reports on CTV today that the number of students killed in Couture-Nowak's French class - where the gunman took his life - may be incomplete. Out off 22 students enrolled, apparently only 12 are accounted for: 10 killed, in addition to their teacher, and 2 survivors, now in hospital. The foreign language department head, Richard Shryock, has expressed frustration with his inability to get information about the remaining students and the final moments in that classroom, and fears they may have perished also. Are there any other reports about unaccounted for students? Here is the link for the CTV (Canadian Television Network)report "Gunman committed suicide in Canadian prof's class" http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070419/cho_suicide_070419/20070419?hub=Canada wiki-stikler 03:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why no mention of this name that he took on? It was tatood to his arm and was used in the return address for his package to NBC. Someone should write this up.
No, it hasn't really been that many but it seems like it. Looking at the article, there has been nothing but vandalism for the last two hours and thus I have s-protected the article. I really hate having to protect it, but there has been nothing but vandalism and reverts for a while now. -- BigDT ( 416) 03:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it just me, or does anyone else think that the term “futile attempt” with regards to victim Jocelyne Couture-Nowak efforts to save students, constitute a weasely attempt to slight her inability to prevent the gunman from entering and killing her and students? None of the other victims in the article reference their “futile efforts” as a cause for their deaths. It just seems a little underhanded and snide, but mayarchibe that was the author’s intentions(?). 202.128.1.120 04:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed that some of the references no longer link to a relevant article. The TV networks seem to have a bad habit of using the same URL to post different content. -- Uthbrian ( talk) 06:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not an online chat forum. As such, it's usually accepted that tributes are not appropriate for talk pages, as seen on talk:Steve Irwin. However, as this article gets an increasing number of search engine hits, users might start posting tributes anyways. The thing is, if we keep removing tributes, people will think that we're pretty insincere. Therefore, I'm thinking about adding the following to the talk page header for now:
Any thoughts on this? -- Ixfd64 09:40, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
12 references for one sentence is overkill. The most prominent threats should be briefly described individually to better organize the section. Noclip 12:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is the information about picketing one of the student's funeral on the page? Is this really necessary? Zehly 13:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Please change the headline from "Virginia Tech massacre." It sounds like a horror movie--more fodder for a copycat. Virginia Tech shootings would be sufficient. 72.73.29.201 13:53, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
People are using this article, esp. in the international media section, to argue for gun control. That is not the purpose of wikipedia. Unless plans are also made to completely end black markets and to close the borders with Mexico, it is not clear such tragedies really can be prevented. Gun-control is a complex topic that should not be merged into this article. We see that making drugs illegal has really kept drugs out of people's hands. This simply is not the forum to discuss such things. Please make this section NPOV —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.55.204.182 ( talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 14:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There has been no explanation for what part of this section is actually POV, so I'm going to remove the tag. Tagging things as POV requires explaining how the section fails a Wikipedia policy on the talk page, not just a drive-by tagging because you don't agree. Natalie 19:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC) Why don't we remove the article altogether since it is obviously biased against the Second Amendment right to bear arms? -- Jhvillegas2 21:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Why keep removing the verylong template? Is it because the article is so popular? If people see that it meets the criterion for a verylong article, maybe they will want to contribute to helping us split/prune the article and prettify(tm) it. Zehly 14:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The following suggestions were generated by a semi-automatic javascript program, and might not be applicable for the article in question.
between a number and the unit of measurement. For example, instead of 9 mm, use 9 mm, which when you are editing the page, should look like: 9 mm.
[?]You may wish to browse through User:AndyZ/Suggestions for further ideas. Thanks, Rooot 16:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is this the official motive as believed by law-enforcement? Zehly 17:35, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've removed much of it, as it was a copyvio from [5] - as such it now needs to be expanded. - Halo 17:42, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of accuracy, it should be noted that the International Herald Tribune is only sort-of international. It is based in Paris, but is owned by and most of its content provided by the New York Times. Le Monde or AFP would be a better French source. Gregohio 17:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
It rather seems that there is an attempt here to censor the massive wave of criticism of US gun laws and culture found in the international media. Read some of it and it will be apparent that much of the world's media considers that the primary story. Gregohio 17:54, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Halo, you accused me of marking the article as 'off-topic' and then using that fact to support my argument. That's untrue. As you can see from these diffs [6] [7], it was Rooot who added that tag. Please be more careful in making accusations like this. Ronnotel 18:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In Cho's videotaped diatribe that he mailed to NBC he made some statements that sounded to me like quotes from movies or books. My guess was that many of his strange statements were excerpts of "hot phrases" he had acquired over the years and not original. One of Cho's raging comments, "The decision was yours" struck me as such a phrase. Upon a Google search I came across a book with a cover that startled me - it shows a small Asian child on a bus being bullied by a caucasian child. Beside the Asian child's head is a large question mark. I believe it is very possible Cho came across this book at some point in his life and it may prove to be a key in unraveling the reasons for this tragedy. Check out my blog about this to see the book cover. - - When the Monster Breaks You - Cho Seung Hui —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.136.86.138 ( talk • contribs) Abe Lincoln 18:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
There has been a dispute as to whether the 'package mailed to NBC' incident should be mentioned in the Norris Hall attack section. Since the other pertinent actions of the gunman (some of which doubtless have not been revealed yet) are covered in the section on Cho, I do not think it is appropriate to include something that occurred earlier (namely the mailing) under the Norris Hall section.
Thoughts?- Markm62 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
In notes 100, and 108 some of the dates are appearing as red links. Can someone who has some knowledge of the ref formating system fix these? Thanks. JoshuaZ 18:16, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Probably off topic, delete if you wish, but here is a timelapse someone made of the VT massacre page on Youtube - Ravedave 19:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
He may have been mentally ill, but surely this is not the motive in itself for the crime? - Phoe nix 19:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Anyone thing that this should be included in this article?
i'm not sure if it should be included, it's cool to know, but not really relevent to the article- Three ways round 20:13, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Right now it says that Asperger's Syndrome is a mental illness... This needs to be changed desperately!
People keep reverting my addition of Solana's/EU's statement, is not Voice of America a reliable source or what is the problem? - Lapinmies 20:26, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Hmm - at one point there was a cite from Merkel speaking on behalf of the EU - it may have been cut as a dupe, not sure. We can add one into the list of countries, but I don't think it merits any special text beyond a footnote. Ronnotel 21:25, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the introduction is devoted to describing the perpetrator's nationality, race and immigration status in the U.S. Are these facts really the most central data about there is? What about gender, his history of psychological evaluations, his secluded situation in school, etc? The nationalistic focus isn't NPOV. — David Remahl 20:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
How relevant, long-lasting, and uniquely valuable is this section? To me, it seems a standout for deletion. Everybody is "responding" to the incident, and this is likely to go on for some time. Sfmammamia 20:37, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Strongly Agree. Been trying to cut this stuff down for days now. Ronnotel 21:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Ladies and gentlemen, this talk page is moving at a fairly prodigious rate and, although it's not as fast as it was earlier in the week, it's becoming cumbersome to archive well. I made one effort to selectively go throw and archive only threads that weren't active anymore, but it was trying enough that I didn't attempt it again and I don't believe that anyone else has, either. By engaging the services of MiszaBot, we won't have to do the archiving ourselves and the bot will take care not to archive discussions that are currently active. Do we have a consensus to do this? A Train talk 18:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Somebody just deleted the picture of him holding up the two guns. I understand why this may have been done because the picture is offensive to victims families. I believe, however, that under the perpetrator section we should have a picture of Cho to the side. Why not put up his student ID photo instead (the first picture that shows up on Cho's article) ? I would but I don't know how to post pictures on Wikipedia. Tocino 5:42 P.M., 20 April 2007 (CST)
Should we protect this page? It has been vandalized several times today. I'm a big believer in "we're a wiki", but this is an article that could be more damaging to Wikipedia's reputation if there was vandalism on it. Just a thought. -- Trumpetband 23:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I say go for it. Put up a proposal for semi-protection. Wrad 00:00, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
User User:Natalie Erin wrote in a section above:
The edit summary given for Natalie's change was:
My response is that, while the Virgina Tech convocation was notable, George Bush's use of the event as a political stage was not, at least in the context of an article about the Virginia Tech massacre. The article already has a photo of the convocation, and many more relevant photos related to the topic of the article have already been included. The reason given in my edit summary is a clear cut enough reason not to have a picture of George Bush in an article about the Virginia Tech massacre. 204.42.27.110 00:02, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for the source on the family response quoted to see who specificly said these things and it seems that the source is itself. Could someone please find the real source or elliminate the false circular source and put a 'citation needed' thing there? -youngidealist 68.231.200.13 06:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Cannot be edited 1st paragraph shooter is reffered to as Sueng-hiu cho, when it is Cho seung Hui
Ok, I think it needs to be decided exactly what image will be used on the top of the page, because the previous image of the campus seemed to be just a randob image that didn't really illustrate the event, but the current cell phone video image of students in the building cowering also doesnt seem right. Rodrigue 23:25, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Incidentally, it turned out that this was a non-issue: the hallway photo's license requires mentioning its photographer in the caption. The article's now back to having the mourning one on top. -- Kizor 11:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Other schools' responses can be pared down to a few sentences. Almost every college and university in the United States and many around the world had some kind of response -- a message from the president, a vigil, counseling offered to students, info on how they are prepared to respond to similar attacks, etc. By singling out a few in detail, it implies that these were the only ones. This entire topic can be summed up in a few sentences. Crunch 11:46, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I believe you are missing the point. Thousands of other schools are not sending medical experts to VT. Thousands of other schools are not giving free boarding to the virginia state police. Those are notable, relevant, and sourced statements that are highly important reactions. We're not talking about schools saying "We stand with virginia tech". We're talking about schools saying "We stand with virginia tech, and we're sending 15 trauma counselors to treat the students there". There are only a handful of schools doing that, and this is highly notable. Especially, when said psychologists are nationally reknowned experts in traumatology, such as FSU's response. ⇒ SWATJester On Belay! 01:52, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
How is it sexist to use gunman instead of shooter? Cho was a male and therefore a gunman. If we were talking about an unsolved crime where we didn't know who the shooter was, I could see the argument. I'm not really bothered by seeing "shooter," I just question the justification for the change. Lord Bodak 15:00, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Is not saying shooter a bit shootist :-), gunman it is, gunman it should stay. Unless you have authoritative prove that he was transgender, Or what about 'Gunner' not very sexist a term, a load of nonsense. User: Hyades
I know what you mean from your part of the world, anyway starting to go off topic, was meant as a part of this load of 'nonsense' in reference to terms User:Hyades :-)
The way the first line of the section says "Resident Alien of North Korea" right before his name just doesn't sit well with me. That is why I tried removing it twice, but each time I was undid by the same anon. Is it consensus for that to be there? -- Luigi Maniac 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
"Kevin Granata left his third-floor office of Norris Hall and went down to the second floor as the second round of shootings took place. Reportedly he heard a commotion and went into the hallway to see if he could help anyone. He was killed there by Cho."
How is this a "scene of resistance"? It just says he walked into the hallway. It doesn't fit with the other's actions of barracading the doors... SGT 18:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we discuss what should be pruned from this section? I'm not entirely sure which parts people think strays off-topic, so I don't want to just go in and make cuts. Natalie 19:05, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll take a stab as what I think is on topic:
Ronnotel 19:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think any of it should be removed. The event is important only because of the impact it has on people - to those intimately involved, it is the murder of people they care for, for those of us a step removed it is the issue of violence in our society - you should not remove the impact the event has from the actual event (consider the article on 9/11 where more than half the article talks about the non-immediate impacts). If the sole reason is the length of the article, there is far more irrelevant information that is included (such as the section on Fox not airing some episode of some TV show, or the individual responses of multiple universities all saying the same thing). Sad mouse 20:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
This event was not actually "the deadliest mass shooting in modern US history". I changed it to "one of the deadliest..." because there have been several other massacres with a higher death toll. The Colfax massacre of African-Americans by Ku Klux Klan members in 1873 resulted in 105 deaths. Also, the Sand Creek massacre of 1864 resulted in as many as 185 Cheyenne killed. And the Wounded Knee massacre of 1890 resulted in 300 Dakota Sioux dead. Of course, I don't mean to minimize this tragic event, but it was historically inaccurate the way it was originally worded. I suppose one could make the argument that these are not "modern" events, but I'm not sure what the consensus on that term is. Mycota 21:38, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the source of Cho's anger was because of shunning. People stopped talking and associating with him out of fear and anger following his two stalking incidents some months earlier. Also, Cho talked about his "imaginary" friends Jelly (KY) and Spanky (Hand), a jocular figure of speech used by Cho to describe masturbation to his two room mates. This was misinterpreted by his roommates to indicate insanity, they ignored him out of fear and isolated him further.
The attempt at reaching out to the two women, was perhaps the first time Cho attempted to break out of his autistic isolation and emotionally connect with another human being. The result was police knocking on his door and a two-day stay in a mental hospital. This pattern seen in some young adults with autism and Asperger's syndrome, its is called "gaining insight". As autism alleviates, the autistic feels lonely and makes their first failed attempts at forming friendships and relationships. Cho's social skills were very poor, his initial attempts at sociality was met with ridicule, fear and persecution.
Cho's mention of Ishmael (Ishmail Ax), who was abandoned to the desert to die, indicates that Cho's predominant emotion was abandonment. If you look at the picture you can see how Cho might of felt. Diamonddavej 22:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Reports of the anguish of his own family, and how they could never get him to talk, tend to deflect the tendency to somehow blame others for his behavior (as he himself has done). However, it's reasonable to conclude that he was improperly diagnosed. He was, essentially, in a world of his own, and would not let anyone in. Wahkeenah 18:57, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
As suggested in Wikipedia:Article size, I ran a preview of this article with all references removed. Even though I didn't remove all that wasn't "readable prose" (for example, I didn't cut the table of contents, lists or tables), the version without references didn't trigger the longpages warning. Therefore, even though the full wiki text totals out at around 60K give or take a few, readable prose is less than half that, below 32K even. szyslak ( t, c) 23:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Here we go again. Now we have a bullet list of sporting and other tribute reactions -- this has the same problem with recentism as the sporting tributes section, which was deleted earlier per discussion. This will be going on for days, possibly weeks, could we please refrain? Sfmammamia 02:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
now that more information is coming out about Cho Seung-hui's earlier life and problems, the order of the perpetrator section is getting a little wacky. would a subsection under the first sentence or so the deals with the mental/behavorial problems he had through childhood and high school be too much expansion here? Sfmammamia 02:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Norris Hall shootings section now contains details found only in blog postings -- those are the refs cited. I've tried to remove them, but they've been reinstated. Other more experienced editors -- what say you? Sfmammamia 04:01, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Just saw http://www.virginiatechmassacre.com/ go up as an external link (some sort of charity/support group site). It doesn't really seem to fit the content of the other links, safe to remove? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spencewah ( talk • contribs) 05:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
An article in Slate indicates the gunman went by Seung Cho and that his family used the Americanized form. 209.148.113.42 07:40, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Should the current template remain on this page anymore? Not too much more will likely be added, barring a major development. -- AEMoreira042281 13:46, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Cho may have been 23 but wasn't his parents still paying tuition? And he probably went back home during the summer! So why weren't they informed that their child was having so much problem at school?? If his parents would have known, they would have pulled him out and none of this killing would have happened. So for the sake of "privacy", 33 people were killed. How silly and stupid. I am quite surprised this issue has barely been raised, but I am quite positive Cho's family are wondering this. 66.171.76.138 14:12, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The title of reference 86 is wrong - it's President Bush, not former President Clinton. The Link of reference 106 is wrong: should be a short hyphen between 2007 and 04. Seems to be a special character actually. Can someone correct this please? I'am not allowed to ... Daniel.zwink 15:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The Columbine massacre occurred on a Tuesday of the third week of April, as did this. Have any sources in compliance with WP:RS seized on this yet? -- AEMoreira042281 15:43, 21 April 2007 (UTC) This happened on a Monday, not a Tuesday, although the week in April is the same.
As was correctly pointed out above, this was not the "deadliest shooting in American history" as has been reported in the media. However, it was the deadliest shooting by a single perpetrator in American history. The media refers to this, accurately I think, as the "most deadly shooting spree in American history." Shouldn't this language be in the first paragraph and not buried in the article?-- Mantanmoreland 16:50, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This has been discussed two or three times prior. I think the phrasing "deadliest mass shooting in modern US history", as it existed for about two or three days, is the most accurate, compact way to state this. Modern in the sense it doesn't compare to massacres during past times of war or insurrection, mass shooting in the sense of multiple shooting homicides. Spree has a possible connotation of serial murder to it, which can be avoided with mass shooting. Ronnotel 20:10, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Somebody on /b/ made a post about killing people at vtech and changed the date to make it look like it was from before the incident. This shop then appeared as fact in a major Swedish (I think) newspaper. This is a pretty big piece of misinformation, maybe it could go in the "false reports" article or something? In b4 some wikifag says "it has something to do with 4chan and is therefor unworthy." -Anonymous
I don't think the amount that where killed at the VT shooting should include him. I would state my reasoning, but I'd rather let you figure it out. To put it very, very, very nicely, he is a piece of crap. The template should be changed to Victims and Shooters or something else. Nwbeeman 20:32, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
just say 33 dead including the killer/shooter. Makes everyone happy, and it provides the most informations in the smallest space.- Three ways round 23:22, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this idiotic claim by NBC and ABC and a few other sources should be added to the innacurate media section. For whatever 'railing' should mean, the videos themselves have shown Cho to be someone who likens himself to Jesus, not one who hates Jesus and those who follow him. Religious propaganda like this is damaging and only furthers hate reactions to this incident. Even if Cho is condemning Christians on videos not yet released, his ramblings are either incoherant or only in the sense of the "not true Christians" typical argument. There are other huge propaganda methods being used by major media sources to identify him as a muslim well before that can be known. I haven't heard of a video where he mentions infidels or Muhammad either and Just as well I have never headr of Muslim evangelists being in South Korea. Maybe we should create a "false media page of the virginia tech massare" and add a link here to it, since so many people validly argue that this one page is getting long as it is. Whatever happens we should not sacrifice any valid information entirely. -youngidealist edited: 209.129.85.4 21:08, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
is this taken into account? -- Striver - talk 21:09, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
According to the picture "Aerial photo showing location of Norris and West Ambler Johnston Halls." in the first part of the article, would it be possible to locate the post office where the packet to NBC was sent? Also, where was Cho's dormitory? It would give the picture about what distances he had to make between the first shooting and the masacre. (It would give a better insight to the situation, I mean how many more people could spot (and stop) him before he started the killing spree, maybe some police office on the way in between, ect.) Merewyn 21:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
This event lends an extra layer of meaning to the expression "going Postal". Wahkeenah 23:42, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Right now the lead says 17 were injured, and the infobox says 29. Which one is right? Natalie 23:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, the Washington Post says about 30 injured, and a NY Times article from the 18th says 28 injured transported to the hospital, of which two died. So 29 is at least possible, while 17 appears to be a gross understatement.
Articles on several of the victims have been created, and every single one of them has been nominated for deletion. This is starting to get counterproductive. Let us resolve this in a more practical manner: hold a single discussion on whether or not those people would merit separate articles — and this includes the point of whether or not any information that might surface in the next few weeks should be enough to merit a separate article (or should it just be included in this one). If anything, make it two separate discussions: one for the students and another for the faculty. As far as the students are concerned, the situation is rather similar: they were not notable prior to this incident, and have become notable solely in connection with it. This clearly makes it possible for a single decision to be made that would apply to them all. Once this is done, we would be able to apply it immediately — if it is decided that those articles should exist, then any AfD on them would be speedly closed on sight; if it is decided that they shouldn't, then all entries created would be deleted (possibly with any relevant information added being merged into this article).
If we don't do that, then we will end up having to go through +30 AfDs, all with the exact same merit.
Redux
03:18, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Is it too early to discuss the lead of this article before rewriting it, or are we waiting for the article to stabilize? Perhaps we should consider developing a brief outline here on the discussion page, summarizing the key points, etc. I'd also like to suggest simplifying first sentence. In my opinion, the present sentence tries a little too hard to cover everything in one go. Something along the lines of "The Virginia Tech massacre occurred on April 16, 2007, on the Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University campus in Blacksburg, Virginia" or similar could be a good start, and subsequent sentences further develop the entry. Anyway, the idea here is to discuss the lead in some detail before any edits are made. JordanSealy 08:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
The photo to the right has been released under the GFDL. Basically, the PSU student section made a large VT at their college football spring game. -- BigDT ( 416) 13:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I'll leave it to others to determine whether they want to try and make use of some of the initial details here [9] at this time, or wait until the full reports are released and digested by the press. W.C. 22:37, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Two of Cho's plays can be found at this url: http://news.aol.com/virginia-tech-shootings/cho-seung-hui/_a/richard-mcbeef-cover-page/20070417134109990001 209.212.89.242 17:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
more quotes and refrences from cho's video because i can't edit on this comp
Red Sox played in green jersey's with black VaTech patches to honor the victims of the attacks.
Excerpts from the video message that Cho sent to NBC
"You just loved to crucify me. You loved inducing cancer in my head, terror in my heart, ripping my soul."
"Your Mercedes wasn't enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren't enough, you snobs. Your trust fund ... your vodka and cognac wasn't enough. All your debaucheries weren't enough ... to fulfil your hedonistic needs."
"When the time came, I did it. I had to."
http://education.guardian.co.uk/higher/worldwide/story/0,,2060764,00.html
65.254.5.139 11:15, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I think that those quotes, or at least some similar to them, should be included. The guy wasn't born nuts, rightly or wrongly he had big issues with people from better off backgrounds whom he felt were mocking and abusing him. This is how he justified what he did to himself.
Which is exactly what must be done. How can we deal with madmen if we don't know what's going on in their heads. Lunatics generally show warning signs or fixate on certain things, it's how we identify them early, and what better way to spot a lunatic than by being aware of their lunacy so that we know it when we see it.
The foreign media is making something of the fact that he felt (rightly or wrongly) that he was outside of the American Dream, and that people inside it were mocking him, so they think that it's important.
perfectblue 09:53, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
'Massacre' is too one-sided a term for what took place. A more neutral term like 'killings' or 'shootings' is more appropriate, if indeed the NPOV policy is to be upheld. If you wish to pander to the emotional masses, you would do well to keep it as massacre. Vranak
"Virginia Tech massacre" actually beats "Virginia Tech shooting": 5,609 to 3,718. "Massacre" is in prevalent use in CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, etc. -- Kizor 06:58, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
According to WP policy, we must use the consensus term that has developed in the media. It's not our place to judge whether it is emotional or not. I think there's strong evidence cited above that the media is settling on Virginia Tech massacre, if it hasn't already. Ronnotel 16:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
My dictionary defines "massacre" as deriving from Old French for "slaughter" and meaning "The killing of a number of human beings under circumstances of atrosity or cruelty." The definition fits this event just fine. Wahkeenah 17:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
the article was originally the 'Virginia Tech Shooting', but near the begining it was moved here. I forget what the reasoning was but it was good enough for it to be moved here, go look at the first couple archives and see if that convinces you- Three ways round 23:37, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
A mass-killing is actually more likely to be a 'massacre' if it takes place off of a battlefield. A key component of a massacre is that one side is unable to defend itself. Rooot 05:32, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I take Psychology course in high school we are on the chapter of psychotic illness so after this occured my teacher asked us to figure out what kind was the killer suffering from. i have reached the conclusion of Paranoid Scrizophrenia. But i am still surprised because what would aggrivate him so much that he would do this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Missionimpossible ( talk • contribs) 03:08, 21 April 2007 (UTC).
Yeah but warning signs don't mix beacuse i heard somewhere he gave warning signs and i am pretty sure after looking up in cnn i didn't find that he was a pyro a warning sign of ASPD thank you though for your help-- Missionimpossible 03:35, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I hope your teacher has taught you that it's impossible for even a trained expert to come to a conclusion at this point about what mental illness this individual might have been suffering from based only on news reports we now have. --
Crunch
21:41, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I know it's impossible but we were just guessing --
Missionimpossible
06:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Personal attack removed. Anchoress 22:48, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Listen I am sorry if i offended you in any way but i don't think i deserve that kind of language.-- Missionimpossible 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he was on a SSRI antidepressant. http://nomorefakenews.com/index.php http://www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2007/04/19/the_virginia_tech_shootings_a_psychiatric_drug_connection.htm 201.19.199.254 19:42, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
He could be but i heard he gave warning signs in his english class his teacher went and complained to the university officials also he wrote some sort of a Manifesto and during his interview was heard saying "You made me do this" anti deprresants don't make you delusional, or give warning signs they might make you homicidal or sucidial though.-- Missionimpossible 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
or that: http://www.healyprozac.com/ 201.19.199.254 14:46, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
This page is for discussing the article. If you'd like to speculate about Cho, that's fine, but this is the wrong place for it. - Hit bull, win steak (Moo!) 21:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Then could you tell me the right page where to go and speculate about him. thank you -- Missionimpossible 22:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed a sentence saying that it is a taboo in South Korea to discuss mental illness. South Koreans might hesitate to get treatment for mental illness, but it is not a taboo at all to discuss mental illness generally, or anyone's mental problem or illness. -- chunwook 03:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
In the portion of the article mentioning that Cho was bullied in high school, I think it might be relevant to note that his classmates said "Go back to China." The reference about the high school bulling does mention it. Why is this relevant? It just shows that certain segments of the population cannot tell the difference between a Chinese, Japanese, or a Korean. Recall for instance, that several news coporations at first claimed that the perpetuator is a Chinese national. I also remeber WWII posters produced by the US government that tried to let Americans to determine the difference between a Japanese and a Chinese. The main point is that there are racial stereotypes involved, but we don't need to promote this POV except to say that Cho's classmates told him "Go back to China" even though he was for all practical purposes a Korean-American. 61.229.182.23 15:30, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about this By The Way request: About that "Son of a ..." comment of Cho's elderly relatives, is the Mirror.co.uk new source reliable or is it made up by the media? I would be concerned if it is not from the elderly person as that indicates yet another stereotyping attempt by that media: putting words into someone's mouth as if they claimed doing it! To maintain neutrality of this article please explicitly cite that new source next to that statement rather than at showing the source at the footer. 24.131.202.186 05:49, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Just wanted to congratulate editors who worked on the international reactions section. The John Howard part in particular is IMHO a lot better. As I've mentioned before, the CNN characterisation of it as an attack on (decrying) the negative gun culture of the US was clearly inaccurate as if you see what he said (and consider the upcoming election), it's quite obvious what he's trying to say. Nil Einne 16:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Should we list the statuses of the victims? I know 27 were injured. Just by looking at the list you don't know if they are the ones that were killed , injured, or if the list is a combination of both. ShadowWriter 17:05, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know why so many of the dates are redlinked in the ISO format (for me, anyway)? I assume this has to do with the changes recently made (and undone) to the cite web template but I don't know what this would be happening given my (very limited) knowledge of that template. Anyone know what's going on? It looks quite ugly and seems indicative of a larger problem (but perhaps one limited just to me). -- ElKevbo 02:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I object to the following claim in the initial summary paragraph:
"... making it the deadliest mass shooting in modern U.S. history."
This claim is fraught with inaccuracy, inconsistency, and mere opinion. Moreover, ranking the Virginia Tech massacre by body count in the summary does a grave injustice to the seriousness of the event. The Historical context section is accurate, appropriate, and comprehensive in discussing how the event measures up to prior, related events. I advise this claim be removed from only the initial summary of the article.
I know this subject has been discussed "many times" and I understand there was a so-called "consensus"; however:
"Once established, consensus is not immutable. It is reasonable, and sometimes necessary, for the community to change its mind. A small group of editors can reach a consensual decision about an article, but when the article gains wider attention, members of the larger community of interest may then disagree, thus changing the consensus. The original group should not block further change on grounds that they already have made a decision." ( Wikipedia:Consensus)
Adraeus 03:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
"Modern US history" is more specific than 1701-2007. That time frame by itself is greater than "US History" as the United States was founded in 1776. So, "modern" should be a subset of "us history." I don't know what would qualify, but my guess would be somewhere since the Industrial Revolution would be termed "modern." 129.237.2.66 16:29, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed the formatting for the list of victims so that victims are organized by classroom. WhisperToMe 05:35, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
It seems inappropriate to have a sub-topic like this, I've removed it. It was only one sentence which couldn't really be expanded on and was purely related to gun control which appears later on, at length, in the same article. There was also no need to have a large video thumbnail for such a tiny subtopic, and the link seemed to lead to various videos that had nothing to do with gun control (perhaps spam?). If anyone disagrees with this removal, feel free to reverse, but please reply with a reason :-) Mentality 13:34, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
For now, I have reverted the title change back to Virginia Tech massacre. This type of change needs to be discussed, first I think. More importantly, it needs to be attributable. I believe the most common usage in the media is Virginia Tech massacre, hence we must use that term as well. I'm open to counter-arguments, but please cite policy when you do so. Thanks. Ronnotel 16:30, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Nobody calls it Virginia Polytech. It never has been called that. The only people who call it VPI are old people and UVA fans. (Somehow, UVA fans get a rise out of thinking of us as a midmajor. Whatever.) Every single media guide put out by the athletics department has a section called "Just Virginia Tech, please" that explains the proper name to use. See page 4 of [11] for a copy of this statement.
In 1970, the official name of the school was changed from "Virginia Polytechnic Institute" to "Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University". "Virginia Tech" is a recognized "informal" name and, in the interest of not having to write out the full name everywhere, should be used in this article. Anyone changing the a reference to VPI should be politely notified of the correct name. -- BigDT ( 416) 17:13, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Visit the website here "After the VA Tech Massacre" for photo's that are being added to show more about the campus around VA Tech and the beauty there along with the sadness. Debbie M. 24.254.6.200 18:50, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
All the graduating students here at bayview wish to send our thought' and prayers to the students and teacher's; Jason-Reigns, Alex-Vicman, Craig-Lewis, Katie-Osban, Timothy-Lane, Hector-Veluzua, Omar-Richardson, Matt-Petterson, Sean-Fritz, Olivia-Brown, Nick-Lumiski, Louie"Too-Tall"Bries, Otto.M.Smith, Veronica-White, Eric-Neirdon, Stacy-Weinberg, Tammie-Waylon, Harrold-Birch, Ellen-Blackwood, Corey-Dechins, Oscar-Perez and student counsel president Cindi-Poloso:The graduating class of 07: agian our best wishes. -Never forget, 4/16/07, VT stand strong! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bayview hs students ( talk • contribs) 20:44, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
There's an article on Max Karson, a university student expelled for comments on the massacre, at the University of Colorado. IT's currently at WP:AFD (Articles of Deletion), and some people say it should be merged here. Please leave your opinion. 132.205.44.134 22:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The victims of the massacre currently have their own page, which lists them in relative detail, and a small section in this article, which gives their names in a compact form. The victims page is currently undergoing an AfD and there's been a fair bit of seesawing over how they should be covered. I and Yksin figured that talking things out would be much more productive than undoing each other's work, and that a significant change like this should be discussed in peace.
To reiterate myself from user talk, the names of the victims are quite useful to have in the main article. They provide single-click access to those victims with articles - legit ones, I know student victims' articles are getting zapped as we speak, but several faculty members have passed WP:PROF. (The fairly ugly template with these links is losing its TfD and was removed from the article.)
More importantly, it needs to be mentioned that five faculty members were killed, and the victims section accomplishes that efficiently and elegantly, giving the reader more information at a glance than what could be given in the text without greatly disrupting the text flow. Repeated mentions in the text were clumsy and I saw no real way to improve them. And when at least some of the faculty members have proven independently notable, there's no real point in saying that five were killed and not saying who they were, forcing the reader to hunt for that information. -- Kizor 00:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've said this before, but I'll just reiterate here for the sake of argument. I personally feel that having a separate list for the victims strains the bounds of notability. Being that the size of the list is going to be limited (I doubt it will top 33, and if it does it certainly won't go over 40), there's no chance of it taking over the article. But I find that dropping the list in it's own section in the middle of the article really disrupts the prose and looks rather tacky. Thus, I think we should use a sidebox, ala the Columbine High School massacre and Bath school disaster articles. This will also dis-encourage people from adding crufty, memorial-type information to the list, which can be a concern, and provide a place to link to the professors' articles (4, if I'm not mistaken). As for information in the box, I think it should stick to name, age, faculty position/year in college, and maybe where they were killed. Natalie 01:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
As has been noted by more than one person, N is not additive; lumping together a large number of non-notable things is not notable itself. I am one of those who agree that the list of victims is not notable, but that is irrelevant. I don't think their names are necessary; it is obviously important to note that people were killed, and their names could be used inline if some narrative of the events comes to be, but a list is just gratuitious. A list of names is entirely meaningless and unremarkable unless the names in that list are remarkable unto themselves, and in this event, it seems there were two people max who died who were important enough to merit articles. Titanium Dragon 01:56, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
If there was a vote, I would've voted remove section. It's too much. -- Jambalaya 20:32, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the section should be removed because there is a separate article specifically for the list. The link to that article is all that is necessary. Rooot 06:01, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is it necessary to mention the shooter's nation of birth in the lead of this article? It doesn't seem to be important enough for this article. -- ElKevbo 19:24, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Do we say, "The Columbine massacre was committed by natural-born American citizens Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold?" szyslak ( t, c) 20:03, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
the lead is supposed to breifly summerise the entire article/event. it's made to basically answer all the basic questions, and give someone the just of what happened. i think that right now it's doing that. i think we hsould just leave it alone- Three ways round 20:07, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
How much does a person remember up to age 8? (I personally don't remember much). By indicating this killer is a Korean immigrant without specifying "Up to age 8" or "immigrated to USA at age 8" is not alright. By not clarifying only 2 out of 17 of his schooling years occurred in Korea, a blank statement on his nationality mislead some into anti-immigrantation sentiment. -- HtcWiki 20:25, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with HtcWiki; by expounding upon the fact that the shooter is a Korean National, it seems that there might be a push to shift the blame away from America. However a person living in a country for 8 years, then living the next 15 years in America, it seems that the shooter was raised and heavily influenced in an American environment. I am not saying that this article should exclude the nationality identification of the shooter, but to not make a big deal such as constantly tagging "Korean National" after the word shooter. This tagging has been done in news to create more shock and awe appeal, for ratings, but let's keep wikipedia more about the information, and less about entertainment. Pgaru 21:27, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Keep if for no other reason than the Korean government and public made it an issue. The President issued an apology - even if it was not necessary the Korean public he appeared genuinely ashamed of the event. Kransky 01:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I am unhappy about how Korea's action was portrayed as "shock and sense of public shame". The shock is reasonable but stating that the nation of Korea has public shame does not seem right. Many other individuals commit crimes, yet there is no national shame for that matter. Therefore by saying Korea has national shame for this one person who lived most of his life in America, the statement is implying that Korea is trying to appease the world and almost saying that it is Korea's fault. I do not think public shame should be added, unless the nation of Korea was to blame. Pgaru 21:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The New York Times has done an article on this page. Good work everyone, all 2,074 of us! - Ravedave 06:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Nice quote Miikka. I really like it. -- 155.52.25.46 18:32, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
In the interest of full disclosure, I think it would be nice if Noam Cohen, the author of the NY Times article, would indicate whether he has been an editor of this article. Not that I think anything sinister is going on - but I, for one, would like to know whether any of my fellow editors are about to write an article like this. I also wonder how many professional MSMers might be contributing to these pages in their spare time. Anyone else feel the same? Ronnotel 18:45, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Arguably one of the most mitigating factors along with his mental illness. Why does the article make no mention of this? DutchSeduction 07:36, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Nor'easter is simply how a certain region pronounces the actual word northeaster. It's a slang term. Wikipedia should not adopt a colloquial New England dialect in a formally written encyclopedic article.
'Northeaster' is more accurate and more understandable to any reader outside the eastern United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.169.8.199 ( talk) 17:31, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
Currently the top infobox says:
I see these as gross assumptions. I'm still somewhat new to wikipedia and am finding it difficult to search the discussion archives for this topic. Was this motive arrived at through discussion? I note that the article on the Columbine shootings still says, "Motive: Unclear". Other views? Sfmammamia 20:02, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
An editor (perhaps more than one) keeps inserting a reference to Kangalert.com in the middle of the "Law enforcement response" subsection. The editor who has most recently inserted this link wrote on my Talk page that "i just came accross the link a few days ago in the news and thought it was pertinent there. I know it could appear as linkspam, but i figure people's lives could be at stake in the future if we DON'T include it."
I object to using this article as a means of advertising this or any other product. I have removed the reference several times and I ask editors to (a) cease from inserting this material and (b) remove it if it inserted again. Unless there is a clear connection between this company and this incident, it should not be in this article and certainly not slapped in the middle of that section. If there is such a connection that I have missed, I apologize. But right now it looks like old fashioned spam and unwelcome advertisement that has no place in this or any other encyclopedia article. --
ElKevbo
20:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I respecfully disagree with ElKevbo, for I am in law enforcement and part of the problem that the Virginia Tech Administration and campus safety faced was there inability to communicate with the students in real - time. The kanga link does look like spam at first - but there are a few reasons it is not: I think there was something like a two hour delay before the students got an EMAIL. As editors of wikipedia it is our job to ensure that pertinent information is delivered to our readers, ESPECIALLY if it could save lives. We are not even sure that this incident is completely over, threats continue to surface nationwide [12].
Editors should insert the kanglink because:
- students have a right to know about this type of company - law enforcement personell have the right to know about about this type of company - its not linkspam if we include other companies like kangalert who can notify students in the event of a crisis. - there is a clear connection between this company and the incident
its a bit like trying to talk about the world trade center incident without mentioning Guilianni. If we try to censor out Guilianni from 9-11 we have done our readers an injustice, just as if we try to censor kangalert. I am not saying that kangalert is the 07 equivilant of a Guilianni, I am saying it just looks suspicious when ElKevbo perhaps wants to supress information that could help.-- 65.214.112.56 20:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
recently, MyDeathSpace.com posted a list of the victims, including Ryan Clarke. the link is here. do you think we should post these? Nocarsgo 22:54, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The reference for the following paragraph doesn't support the statement (about the Korean car accident involving the US military vehicle):
-- Anchoress 03:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
The photo with 2 guns looks like a movie. Do we want more "stars" like this? I don't think we should participate in mass murderer's self-promotion. Even sensationalist media outlets that showed his video had second thoughts. ← Humus sapiens ну ? 03:51, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know if indeed the guns were purchased legally? I ask because I heard somewhere Cho lied on his background check about whether he had mental health issues. If he lied, the purchase was not legal. Might be a technicality, but even minor details are important in cases like these. 66.57.224.66 03:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC) del
under other media responses, it notes that the CV claims other school shootings ended abrubtly when armed citizens took action, however going thru the records of all shootings to occur on college campuses, there has only been 1 such case. I think if Wiki is gonna echo this agendaed claim, we must also provide an accurtae portrayl in order to retain credibilty.
Yes, but the question is out of those 22 shootings, how many times did a student or faculty member have a gun and face the shooter? It's talking about shootings that were abruptly ended, not shootings in general.
In the same vien, the majority of these shootings end 'abrubtly' when the attacker turns the gun on himself. I think there's like another 2 or 3 in which police subdue the assailent. Likewise, I only examined college campus shootings.
I had this same point. I think by any reasonable definition of abrupt, we can say the CV's generalisation is incorrect. If they are using an unreasonable definition of abrupt... I think this quote should be removed and replaced with one that is not making unverifiable claims. Good to see you bring it up here, rather than stealth delete as is being done to the international media section in a piecemeal fashion. Sad mouse 04:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes I absolutley agree. I'm not sure what the proper procedure here is, but I would like the attention of an admin on this manner. We've pointed out the falliblity of the claim, let alone the insensitive nature of it.
I'm not an admin but I do believe it's time to pull the CV quote. 1) it's simply not true and even though it's presnted as a claim, at least some context must be provided 2) it's incredibley insenstive 3) the consevative voice is not a realiable or notable news source IBelieveThat 20:45, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think that it is necessary to shorten this article at all, but that being said, I see too many people stripping valuable information from the massare article because they want to tell others where it belongs. I removed the excess on the masacre to nothing but a link to the inaccurate media reports article because while I'm against it, I am even more against the idea of having only a few posted here. We should post something about all or none of the contentions in inaccurate media reports on this page. Please respond and discuss here before changing it again. Youngidealist 04:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
See also Wikipedia:Content forking In applying summary style to articles, care must be taken to avoid a POV fork (that is, a split which results in the original article and/or the spin-off violating NPOV), and/or a difference in approach between the summary and the spin-off, etc. See: Wikipedia:Content forking, Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles.
Where an article is long, and has lots of subtopics with their own articles, try to balance parts of the main page. Do not put overdue weight into one part of an article at the cost of other parts. In shorter articles, if one subtopic has much more text than another subtopic, that may be an indication that that subtopic should have its own page, with only a summary presented on the main page.
If the summary is missing something, you can rewrite it rather than deleting it outright. The style guideline states that there should be a summary paragraph; what you changed it to doesn't follow that guideline. Phony Saint 05:05, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The inaccurate media reports on this article are supposed to be a summary of what is on the main article. I placed the points that I removed in the talk section of the main article so that they would not be lost or forgotten. Please discuss and add to the main article before adding to this article's section. - Youngidealist 23:40, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
There were numerous inaccurate statements in the media, I would suggest that only the most notable make it to the article, with petty mistakes going into a sub article (if anyone is bothered to accumulate petty mistakes). Besides the one listed, two highly notable (made by major news sources, repeated by secondary sources and used as reasoning in suggesting motive) were absent, I added them as follows. Sad mouse 01:55, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, the subarticle was deleted as noted at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Michael_Sneed. Its AfD raised some concerns such as verifiability: that is, nobody has written an article on the inaccuracies themselves. Phony Saint 02:14, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I removed " Chicago Sun-Times columnist Michael Sneed was cited as the source of initial reports by news outlets such as WBBM, The Guardian, The Daily Telegraph, and the Herald Sun that the gunman was a "24-year-old Chinese man" who had come to the US on August 7 2006, arriving in San Francisco on a United Airlines flight, on a student visa issued in Shanghai. Sneed herself did not identify her source for that information. NBC News additionally reported that the gunman was not a student at Virginia Tech." from the first dot-point, since the original source of the error and the details are less important. For a brief summary it is probably sufficient to just say the wrong person was first identified. Sad mouse 03:38, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Much thanks to both of you, Sad mouse and Phoeny Saint. I was almost unhinged when I saw that he main article was deleted, but I am releived to find that both of you have fixed up the section on it, and even made it better than the earlier summaries. Youngidealist 05:28, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I still do not see the significance of the Ismail/Ishmael reporting error. Has the spelling discrepancy somehow biased the coverage? If so, we need a sentence that explains that impact and a reference that indicates what effect the error has had. Otherwise, I think that bullet should be deleted (again, as I was the one who deleted it earlier). Sfmammamia 05:34, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Looking at the Inaccurate section again, it's completely original research. Barring any reliable articles specifically written about the errors, I don't think we can include any of it. (I don't really consider the People's Daily to be reliable either, although we could include it if we must.) Phony Saint 17:35, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
An Opinion Dynamics poll recently found that 76 percent of Americans believe stricter gun laws would not help to prevent shootings like this in the future. Since this constitutes a very strong majority, in light of the gun control debate presented in this article it might be worthy to mention this somewhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.15.226.72 ( talk) 13:47, 23 April 2007 (UTC).
This might be a better poll because they ask the same question in a number of different ways (plus CBS/NYT is more reliable).... http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/04/23/poll-on-gun-control/
Congratulations to those who have contributed to this article as your efforts have given significant credibility to Wikipedia: [14]
-- Jreferee 15:03, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
In true Wikipedia fashion, I must caution that it's all the same story, picked up by multiple sources. And multiple citations don't necessarily add credibility. But that's a whole other discussion I suppose. -- Crunch 19:09, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wiki policy is to avoid self references. Best to leave it out, I think. Ronnotel 01:09, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
Good policy. I agree. -- Crunch 19:22, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
An editor has repeatedly inserted text into the "Responses from other educational institutions" subsection about the reaction at Ohio State University. Other editors have repeatedly removed that text. The most recent version of the text in question reads:
The Ohio State University President Karen A. Holbrook released a statement that is linked from the university's homepage since the day of the shootings and that was sent out in a campuswide email to students and faculty on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 shortly before campus cable networks began practicing new emergency broadcast tests. She asserts that "Ohio State stands ready to provide any assistance to Virginia Tech that they may identify in the days to come." [8] Furthermore, OSU police released information on their preparedness for dealing with similar situations that featured local news coverage and front page newspaper coverage. [9]
I am one of the editors who has removed the text (twice, I think) and I have asked the editor who has inserted the text to please discuss this here on the Talk page. I assert that OSU's reaction is not sufficiently different from the reactions at hundreds of other institutions to warrant inclusion in this article. It is not enough that the president of OSU has offered to provide assistance as many other institutions have done likewise. Further, as OSU has not actually provided material support, it does not warrant inclusion along with other institutions who have.
I recognize that the inclusion of the Penn State tribute may be seen as contradictory to my position and I acknowledge the perceived disconnect. That material has already been considerably shortened from its original form but I would not object if someone were to remove it completely. That there is a very nice GFDL-licensed photograph of hundreds, perhaps thousands of PSU students actively participating in the described events makes it an attractive addition to this article. -- ElKevbo 21:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The Ohio State University has offered "to provide any assistance to Virginia Tech that they may identify in the days to come." [10]
The above is uniform with the other universities there, but as the person above me stated, OSU also appeared on the front page of USA Today and had various other events, discussions, activities, etc. that make the university's response more than minor and at least notable like those others mentioned. -- Horace Horatius 03:00, 24 April 2007 (UTC)