I am tending to fail this because of poor prose, and lack of easy understanding.
Examples:
In a departure from tradition Jagannath, a form of the god Vishnu/Krishna (Krishna is generally regarded as an avatar of Vishnu), is worshipped as the Bhairava, traditionally always a form of Shiva.
--Unclear meaning. Uninitiated reader cannot make out what is conveyed here.
Jagannath-Vishnu equated with Shiva, is interpreted to convey the oneness of God. -- except for readers well-acquainted with Hinduism, difficult to understand why this represent one-ness of god.
Vimala is identified with the goddesses Katyayini, Durga, Bhairavi, Bhuvaneshvari and Ekanamsha (the elder sister of Krishna, but younger than Balabhadra) at various times. -- What is meant by various times?
She is considered the shakti of Vishnu as well as Shiva in the climactic Durga Puja festivities. -- who is considered? The deity in Vimala temple? Or in general the Hindu Goddess? Also, do you mean the Durga Puja festivities in general or specific rituals in Puri?
She appears as Mahishasuramardini (Durga as slayer of the demon Mahishasura) or Vijayalakshmi (the warrior form of Lakshmi) in the New Delhi Konark stele -- what is "New Delhi Konark stele"?
The Oddiyana or Uddiyana (now clearly identified as Orissa) in the west is where lies the temple of Katyayini (identified with Vimala) and her consort Jagannath -- "in the west" of what?
I did not read rest of the article. However, unfortunately, it does not seem to meet GA criteria. Will wait a few days for any comment from the nominator. Regards.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
21:52, 13 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Continuing comments First, let me apologize for considering the text too difficult in the initial review! It is difficult, but not extremely so. I was sleepy during the first time I was reading the article, and many sentences appeared quite tough! A tired mind.
Anyway, I am continuing the review.
"Vimala (Bimala) is worshipped as the presiding goddess of the Purushottama (Puri) Pitha. Jagannath, a form of the god Vishnu/Krishna (Krishna is generally regarded as an avatar of Vishnu), is worshipped as the Pitha's Bhairava, traditionally a form of Shiva. Jagannath-Vishnu equated with Shiva, is interpreted to convey the oneness of God."
Suggested version: (please modify as needed)
"Vimala (Bimala) is worshipped as the presiding goddess of the Purushottama (Puri) Pitha. Jagannath, a form of the god Vishnu/Krishna (Krishna is generally regarded as an avatar of Vishnu), is worshipped as the Pitha's Bhairava. This is a departure from the usual tradition of Bhairava being a form of Shiva. So, in this temple complex, Vishnu–one of the
Hindu trinity–is equated with Shiva, another of the trinity; this is interpreted to convey the oneness of God."--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
02:45, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Adopted as suggested.
"While the central icon of Vimala is sixth century CE, the present structure - based on its architecture - seems to built in the 9th century..."
the clause before the comma is missing some word -- "of" or "from" or something (such as, While the central icon of Vimala is from sixth century CE). endash to be used instead of hyphen.
Added/changed
"It is said that Vimala was installed here, even before Jagannath in the central shrine". Where is it said?
Trying to locate the reference. It could be removed if agreed
" King Narasimhadeva, who ruled between 1623-47, ended the meat and fish offerings of the goddess too, however the goddess is still offered meat and fish, but no wine."Is that "too" required? Also,if Narasimhadeva ended the practice in 1600s, was the practice revitalized again (since Vimala gets meat and fish at present, as it seems from the text)?
“Too” removed. But reference to exact year and by whom the practice was restarted is not known.
"The niches and intervening recesses of the talajangha with khakhara mundis, simhavidalas (a lion-faced beast), Gajavidalas (a elephant-faced lion trampling a lion), jaliwork, scrollwork, sikshadana scene of saints and kirtimukha (a monster face) motifs, along with the figurines of eight Dikpalas (guardian gods of the directions) with their mounts and some goddesses." Not a sentence (verb missing).
Added
"Parshvadevatas (attendant deities) are placed in the central niches of the bada on three sides...". I think bada should be in italics. So should be baranda three sentences later.
Done
varada mudra -- needs explanation or wikilink.
Done with link to Mudra and also explained as "a favourable symbolic or ritual gesture”.
"Parshvadevatas (attendant deities) are placed in the central niches of the bada on three sides: the eight-armed Durga slaying Mahishasura on the south; the six-armed goddess Chamunda standing on Shiva, who lies on the ground on the west and an empty niche on the north, probably also having a goddess figure, which was stolen." Citation needed.
I've given a bit of a copyedit and clean to improve readability and understanding and have strengthened the intro. While some of the architectural detail is still a little difficult to follow, and some minor issues no doubt some will spot, I think it's close to GA now. I disagree with the restoral most of
this. To the average English reader I think it looks like Hindu gobbledy-gook and irrelevant to learning about the temple. It is exceptionally difficult to understand. If I came across that independently I'd be put off wanting to read the article. Vimala should have its own article and most of that content not about the temple put in it. It strikes me out of place here and affects readability, even if a brief context is relevant.♦
Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC) ♦
Dr. ☠ Blofeld17:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Detailed discussion on
Talk:Vimala_Temple#Removal_of_sentences_in_Religious_significance. Unlike places of worship of other faiths, where architecture is the focus, reliable sources also detail legends and mentions in scriptures, which does not generally apply other religions' shrines. Comprehensiveness can not be sacrificed to appease the average reader of Wikipedia. Vimala is not a distinct goddess. It is the name of the presiding icon/goddess. "In Shakti Pitha lists" which was removed only mentions the legend as well as mentions in sacred texts. --
RedtigerxyzTalk18:00, 17 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Yes, the architecture description remains difficult to follow. There are so many non-English words, and the reader has difficulty to construct a mental image during reading. But I don't know if this can be improved in any way.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
18:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Jargon has to be retained and can not be simplified further in these cases. Similar English descriptions can be given, e.g. a Parshvadevata can be called an attendant deity, but there are many associations with Parshvadevata, like they are on sanctum periphery often in the
pradakshina patha, subordinate deities or forms of the central deity. --
RedtigerxyzTalk18:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Exactly why I left it, its technically right, but still heavy reading. I tried to make it clearer by adding the meaning of some of the architectural terms in brackets which has improved it I think. Can't really see what else I can do without losing information.. ♦
Dr. ☠ Blofeld19:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
The mention of the temple as a Shakti Peetha ( and the variations of description) in different scriptures is ok and appropriate. But I think the whole detailed story of how Shakti Peethas came into being ( the Dakhsha yagna, and the body parts falling) seems unnecessary in this article.a whole paragraph has is used to tell the story. The story deserves one or two summary sentences. You can explain what are Shakti Peethas in the opening of this section, and then describe different scriptures describing this temple as one. The story of Daksha, Shiva, Parvati belongs to the
Shakti Peetha article, and perhaps some other articles, but not in this temple article. Of course, appropriate wiki links should be provided so that interested readers can check out the whole background story.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
04:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The para is summary of the long Shakti Peetha legend. It is necessary to explain the relation between Sati's body part and the Shakti Pitha list as scriptures paras ahead relate the two. A non-Hindu will not otherwise understand the association. Also, without a short info about Daksha-yajna, one will not understand why was Sati's body cut. Cut a little. I am not sure how to reduce it further without losing the information. --
RedtigerxyzTalk16:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The second paragraph of "Religious significance" needs some elucidation. The paragraph is ok to understand up to "... this is interpreted to convey the oneness of God.". Tne next sentence sentences starts with, "In this regard...". In what regard? Oneness of God regard?
The first sentence of this paragraph says, "Vimala (Bimala) is worshipped as the presiding goddess of the Purushottama (Puri) Pitha". But the last sentence says,"Vimala is considered to be the guardian goddess of the temple complex, with Jagannath as the presiding god". I guess this apparent contradiction is due to different beliefs of the cults (Shakta versus Shaiva versus Vaishnava etc). But it appears quite confusing. You probably need to work on this paragraph to portray the difference of beliefs among the branches of Hinduism more easily.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
06:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The Pitha is limited to the small Vimala shrine. The temple complex is all shrine in the Jagannath Temple. Is it clearer in the text now? --
RedtigerxyzTalk18:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Second opinion
Despite the efforts by Redtigerxyz (and slight effort from me), I am doubtful if the article meets the GA criteria 1a (the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct), specifically the "clear" part.
The sections that I have my doubts on are—the whole "Architecture" section. This section uses loads of non-English words frequently. The problem is, I do not know how to avoid this. The description of architecture will inevitably involve the local language terms.
The next section is the first part of "religious significance" (above "in Shakti Peetha list"). Although I myself am able to understand the meaning, I do not know if it is clear enough. It takes me more than one reading to grasp the meaning.
So, I am unable to provide solution to the problems I found. Perhaps other reviewers may not find it it as big a problem, or, may provide solution, or, may accept the status quo. I have no problem in accepting the status quo and making this a GA, but I need second (or third) opinions before that.
I can provide the second opinion. I have expanded quite some articles of temples built in Kalingan style. The architectural jargons may look complex for readers, but that is how even references are. I will list out my comments in a bit. 16:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Second opinion comments
Architecture section
Deula style has the four components. The sentence "Deula style with four components:" can be modified to "Deula style that has four components namely".
All the jargons are explained - OK.
Vimana
the explanations within braces are varied. While in some parts, English is used and the vernacular names are put in braces, in other places it is viz. Can it be stream lined? ex. first part (pabhaga) and khakhara mundis (a type of niche)
standardized: jargon (explanation)
"The Dikpalas and their consorts are seen " - it is the "The images of Dikpalas and their consorts are seen"
Can English words be used from the second mention - ex. "The lintel of the parshvadevata " to "The lintel of the attendant deities" , "The goddess Vimala is deified within the garbhagriha" to "The goddess Vimala is deified within the sanctum"
Actually, we are sacrificing accuracy with the substitution. parshvadevata are loosely translated as attendant deities. They have other connotations. This is in line with white papers or scholarly books. However, I will try to loose some more jargon. --
RedtigerxyzTalk05:07, 12 January 2013 (UTC)reply
"Her lower right is held in" or "Her lower right hand is held in".
all the terms like vimana, jagamohana, bada, shikara can be anglicized.
Anglicized many, but not vimana, jagamohana as references (even but with short descriptions of the temple) use them. Please suggest terms left that can be anglicized. --
RedtigerxyzTalk05:29, 12 January 2013 (UTC)reply
"sixteen forms of the Hindu Goddess, including the Mahavidyas" - aren't Mahavidyas part of the sixteen. Are there 26 images?
I am fine with the fixes. The image of the Kalingan style has cleared lot of air - one suggestion is it can be resized and positioned. I am fine with the Relgious Significance section which details the significance and reasons out Shakti Pithas. I see there are suggestions to merge the first para and Shakti Pitha sub section, but that will dilute contents. So support retaining it in its present form. 13:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
FYI I am not reviewing this article anymore. I did review it earlier and commented that the article met all GA criteria except 1a (the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct), specifically the "clear" part, for which I was in doubt.
I am tending to fail this because of poor prose, and lack of easy understanding.
Examples:
In a departure from tradition Jagannath, a form of the god Vishnu/Krishna (Krishna is generally regarded as an avatar of Vishnu), is worshipped as the Bhairava, traditionally always a form of Shiva.
--Unclear meaning. Uninitiated reader cannot make out what is conveyed here.
Jagannath-Vishnu equated with Shiva, is interpreted to convey the oneness of God. -- except for readers well-acquainted with Hinduism, difficult to understand why this represent one-ness of god.
Vimala is identified with the goddesses Katyayini, Durga, Bhairavi, Bhuvaneshvari and Ekanamsha (the elder sister of Krishna, but younger than Balabhadra) at various times. -- What is meant by various times?
She is considered the shakti of Vishnu as well as Shiva in the climactic Durga Puja festivities. -- who is considered? The deity in Vimala temple? Or in general the Hindu Goddess? Also, do you mean the Durga Puja festivities in general or specific rituals in Puri?
She appears as Mahishasuramardini (Durga as slayer of the demon Mahishasura) or Vijayalakshmi (the warrior form of Lakshmi) in the New Delhi Konark stele -- what is "New Delhi Konark stele"?
The Oddiyana or Uddiyana (now clearly identified as Orissa) in the west is where lies the temple of Katyayini (identified with Vimala) and her consort Jagannath -- "in the west" of what?
I did not read rest of the article. However, unfortunately, it does not seem to meet GA criteria. Will wait a few days for any comment from the nominator. Regards.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
21:52, 13 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Continuing comments First, let me apologize for considering the text too difficult in the initial review! It is difficult, but not extremely so. I was sleepy during the first time I was reading the article, and many sentences appeared quite tough! A tired mind.
Anyway, I am continuing the review.
"Vimala (Bimala) is worshipped as the presiding goddess of the Purushottama (Puri) Pitha. Jagannath, a form of the god Vishnu/Krishna (Krishna is generally regarded as an avatar of Vishnu), is worshipped as the Pitha's Bhairava, traditionally a form of Shiva. Jagannath-Vishnu equated with Shiva, is interpreted to convey the oneness of God."
Suggested version: (please modify as needed)
"Vimala (Bimala) is worshipped as the presiding goddess of the Purushottama (Puri) Pitha. Jagannath, a form of the god Vishnu/Krishna (Krishna is generally regarded as an avatar of Vishnu), is worshipped as the Pitha's Bhairava. This is a departure from the usual tradition of Bhairava being a form of Shiva. So, in this temple complex, Vishnu–one of the
Hindu trinity–is equated with Shiva, another of the trinity; this is interpreted to convey the oneness of God."--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
02:45, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Adopted as suggested.
"While the central icon of Vimala is sixth century CE, the present structure - based on its architecture - seems to built in the 9th century..."
the clause before the comma is missing some word -- "of" or "from" or something (such as, While the central icon of Vimala is from sixth century CE). endash to be used instead of hyphen.
Added/changed
"It is said that Vimala was installed here, even before Jagannath in the central shrine". Where is it said?
Trying to locate the reference. It could be removed if agreed
" King Narasimhadeva, who ruled between 1623-47, ended the meat and fish offerings of the goddess too, however the goddess is still offered meat and fish, but no wine."Is that "too" required? Also,if Narasimhadeva ended the practice in 1600s, was the practice revitalized again (since Vimala gets meat and fish at present, as it seems from the text)?
“Too” removed. But reference to exact year and by whom the practice was restarted is not known.
"The niches and intervening recesses of the talajangha with khakhara mundis, simhavidalas (a lion-faced beast), Gajavidalas (a elephant-faced lion trampling a lion), jaliwork, scrollwork, sikshadana scene of saints and kirtimukha (a monster face) motifs, along with the figurines of eight Dikpalas (guardian gods of the directions) with their mounts and some goddesses." Not a sentence (verb missing).
Added
"Parshvadevatas (attendant deities) are placed in the central niches of the bada on three sides...". I think bada should be in italics. So should be baranda three sentences later.
Done
varada mudra -- needs explanation or wikilink.
Done with link to Mudra and also explained as "a favourable symbolic or ritual gesture”.
"Parshvadevatas (attendant deities) are placed in the central niches of the bada on three sides: the eight-armed Durga slaying Mahishasura on the south; the six-armed goddess Chamunda standing on Shiva, who lies on the ground on the west and an empty niche on the north, probably also having a goddess figure, which was stolen." Citation needed.
I've given a bit of a copyedit and clean to improve readability and understanding and have strengthened the intro. While some of the architectural detail is still a little difficult to follow, and some minor issues no doubt some will spot, I think it's close to GA now. I disagree with the restoral most of
this. To the average English reader I think it looks like Hindu gobbledy-gook and irrelevant to learning about the temple. It is exceptionally difficult to understand. If I came across that independently I'd be put off wanting to read the article. Vimala should have its own article and most of that content not about the temple put in it. It strikes me out of place here and affects readability, even if a brief context is relevant.♦
Dr. ☠ Blofeld 19:20, 16 December 2012 (UTC) ♦
Dr. ☠ Blofeld17:28, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Detailed discussion on
Talk:Vimala_Temple#Removal_of_sentences_in_Religious_significance. Unlike places of worship of other faiths, where architecture is the focus, reliable sources also detail legends and mentions in scriptures, which does not generally apply other religions' shrines. Comprehensiveness can not be sacrificed to appease the average reader of Wikipedia. Vimala is not a distinct goddess. It is the name of the presiding icon/goddess. "In Shakti Pitha lists" which was removed only mentions the legend as well as mentions in sacred texts. --
RedtigerxyzTalk18:00, 17 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Yes, the architecture description remains difficult to follow. There are so many non-English words, and the reader has difficulty to construct a mental image during reading. But I don't know if this can be improved in any way.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
18:41, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Jargon has to be retained and can not be simplified further in these cases. Similar English descriptions can be given, e.g. a Parshvadevata can be called an attendant deity, but there are many associations with Parshvadevata, like they are on sanctum periphery often in the
pradakshina patha, subordinate deities or forms of the central deity. --
RedtigerxyzTalk18:49, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
Exactly why I left it, its technically right, but still heavy reading. I tried to make it clearer by adding the meaning of some of the architectural terms in brackets which has improved it I think. Can't really see what else I can do without losing information.. ♦
Dr. ☠ Blofeld19:25, 16 December 2012 (UTC)reply
The mention of the temple as a Shakti Peetha ( and the variations of description) in different scriptures is ok and appropriate. But I think the whole detailed story of how Shakti Peethas came into being ( the Dakhsha yagna, and the body parts falling) seems unnecessary in this article.a whole paragraph has is used to tell the story. The story deserves one or two summary sentences. You can explain what are Shakti Peethas in the opening of this section, and then describe different scriptures describing this temple as one. The story of Daksha, Shiva, Parvati belongs to the
Shakti Peetha article, and perhaps some other articles, but not in this temple article. Of course, appropriate wiki links should be provided so that interested readers can check out the whole background story.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
04:19, 2 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The para is summary of the long Shakti Peetha legend. It is necessary to explain the relation between Sati's body part and the Shakti Pitha list as scriptures paras ahead relate the two. A non-Hindu will not otherwise understand the association. Also, without a short info about Daksha-yajna, one will not understand why was Sati's body cut. Cut a little. I am not sure how to reduce it further without losing the information. --
RedtigerxyzTalk16:36, 2 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The second paragraph of "Religious significance" needs some elucidation. The paragraph is ok to understand up to "... this is interpreted to convey the oneness of God.". Tne next sentence sentences starts with, "In this regard...". In what regard? Oneness of God regard?
The first sentence of this paragraph says, "Vimala (Bimala) is worshipped as the presiding goddess of the Purushottama (Puri) Pitha". But the last sentence says,"Vimala is considered to be the guardian goddess of the temple complex, with Jagannath as the presiding god". I guess this apparent contradiction is due to different beliefs of the cults (Shakta versus Shaiva versus Vaishnava etc). But it appears quite confusing. You probably need to work on this paragraph to portray the difference of beliefs among the branches of Hinduism more easily.--
Dwaipayan (
talk)
06:56, 4 January 2013 (UTC)reply
The Pitha is limited to the small Vimala shrine. The temple complex is all shrine in the Jagannath Temple. Is it clearer in the text now? --
RedtigerxyzTalk18:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)reply
Second opinion
Despite the efforts by Redtigerxyz (and slight effort from me), I am doubtful if the article meets the GA criteria 1a (the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct), specifically the "clear" part.
The sections that I have my doubts on are—the whole "Architecture" section. This section uses loads of non-English words frequently. The problem is, I do not know how to avoid this. The description of architecture will inevitably involve the local language terms.
The next section is the first part of "religious significance" (above "in Shakti Peetha list"). Although I myself am able to understand the meaning, I do not know if it is clear enough. It takes me more than one reading to grasp the meaning.
So, I am unable to provide solution to the problems I found. Perhaps other reviewers may not find it it as big a problem, or, may provide solution, or, may accept the status quo. I have no problem in accepting the status quo and making this a GA, but I need second (or third) opinions before that.
I can provide the second opinion. I have expanded quite some articles of temples built in Kalingan style. The architectural jargons may look complex for readers, but that is how even references are. I will list out my comments in a bit. 16:12, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
Second opinion comments
Architecture section
Deula style has the four components. The sentence "Deula style with four components:" can be modified to "Deula style that has four components namely".
All the jargons are explained - OK.
Vimana
the explanations within braces are varied. While in some parts, English is used and the vernacular names are put in braces, in other places it is viz. Can it be stream lined? ex. first part (pabhaga) and khakhara mundis (a type of niche)
standardized: jargon (explanation)
"The Dikpalas and their consorts are seen " - it is the "The images of Dikpalas and their consorts are seen"
Can English words be used from the second mention - ex. "The lintel of the parshvadevata " to "The lintel of the attendant deities" , "The goddess Vimala is deified within the garbhagriha" to "The goddess Vimala is deified within the sanctum"
Actually, we are sacrificing accuracy with the substitution. parshvadevata are loosely translated as attendant deities. They have other connotations. This is in line with white papers or scholarly books. However, I will try to loose some more jargon. --
RedtigerxyzTalk05:07, 12 January 2013 (UTC)reply
"Her lower right is held in" or "Her lower right hand is held in".
all the terms like vimana, jagamohana, bada, shikara can be anglicized.
Anglicized many, but not vimana, jagamohana as references (even but with short descriptions of the temple) use them. Please suggest terms left that can be anglicized. --
RedtigerxyzTalk05:29, 12 January 2013 (UTC)reply
"sixteen forms of the Hindu Goddess, including the Mahavidyas" - aren't Mahavidyas part of the sixteen. Are there 26 images?
I am fine with the fixes. The image of the Kalingan style has cleared lot of air - one suggestion is it can be resized and positioned. I am fine with the Relgious Significance section which details the significance and reasons out Shakti Pithas. I see there are suggestions to merge the first para and Shakti Pitha sub section, but that will dilute contents. So support retaining it in its present form. 13:52, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
FYI I am not reviewing this article anymore. I did review it earlier and commented that the article met all GA criteria except 1a (the prose is clear and concise, respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct), specifically the "clear" part, for which I was in doubt.