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Villa Borghese invariably refers to the gardens as well as the structure. Wikipedia's "Villa Borghese gardens" is a recently-introduced solipsism that would have been avoidable by asking anyone who'd been in Rome: an Italian villa includes its gardens, fountains, casine, ninfei... (Yes
Boboli Gardens are an exception: they are urban gardens attached to a palazzo.) Entering "
Villa Borghese" at Wikipedia and finding a "disambiguation" doesn't serve the reader. The fact that "Villa Borghese" would apply to any villa belonging to a member of the Borghese goes without saying: the village is often appended when there is possible confusion:
Villla Medici for examples. --
Wetman10:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)reply
Edouard Andre contribution?
Has anybody relevant information about
Édouard André's role in designing these gardens?
Iulius 16:20, 22 September 2006
External links modified
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The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus that giving the primary title "Villa Borghese" to the gardens would be confusing to readers. Note that this consensus only opposes the title "Villa Borghese"; late in the discussion, the title "Villa Borghese (park)" was also proposed, and did not attract enough attention to develop a consensus in either direction. Accordingly, an RM that proposes a move to a parenthetically disambiguated title may be opened at any time. (
closed by non-admin page mover)
ModernDayTrilobite (
talk •
contribs)
18:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: reading over the article one might get the impression that the article is about the Villa Borghese—but in fact the villa has its own article, under a slightly different title:
Villa Borghese Pinciana, evidently to distinguish it from other villas owned by the Borghese family, which according to that article may also be referred to as Villa Borghese, although the ones that have Wikipedia articles are listed under other names. I'm not too surprised, since a villa is a house, and this article is almost entirely about the gardens, with one paragraph mentioning that the
Galleria Borghese is in the house. Now, given the length it might be appropriate to consider merging this article into the article about the house itself, which is quite short. Then the house and gardens would be discussed together. But that would be different from the proposed move, which keeps the articles separate, but which would have confusing titles—as if both were about the house, and neither of them about the gardens.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support. It is indeed confusing that these are the gardens of a building called the Villa Borghese, but the park does itself appear to be commonly known simply as the Villa Borghese and is the primary topic for the term. Italian Wikipedia just calls it the Villa Borghese. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
09:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Indeed. But the park around the house (which is Rome's largest park) is invariably referred to simply as the Villa Borghese, not the Villa Borghese gardens or any Italian variant. Essentially, Wikipedia has made up the latter name.
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The villa itself is more commonly referred to as the
Galleria Borghese, which it contains. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
15:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose as too confusing. "Common name" for what? The house already has two articles,
Villa Borghese Pinciana and
Galleria Borghese. Romans do indeed refer to the whole area as the "Villa Borghese", but this article is about the gardens/park, and the name needs to reflect this. There are plenty of comparable examples -
Hampton Court Palace and
Hampton Court Park, both normally just called "Hampton Court"; then there's Versailles....
Johnbod (
talk)
23:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)reply
These are not comparable at all, as Hampton Court and Versailles refer overwhelmingly to the palaces, whereas Villa Borghese refers overwhelmingly to the gardens. However, if it is not seen as the primary topic (which I continue to maintain it is), may I suggest
Villa Borghese (park) rather than the current made-up name, as Wikipedia is not generally in the business of making up names. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I think you'll find that the Versailles gardens, and other buildings in them, get more visitors than the palace (as is the case with the VB no doubt), so I don't know where "refers overwhelmingly" comes from.
Johnbod (
talk)
16:11, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If you say "Versailles" you generally mean the whole thing (and possibly the town too). If you say "Château de Versailles" you mean just the palace. If you say "Villa Borghese", however, you generally mean just the park. If you meant the palace, you'd say "Galleria Borghese". As I said, they're not comparable, because if you specify "Château" you're only referring to the building. But if you say "Villa" you're referring to both and are more likely to be referring to the park. Versailles is not relevant to this discussion. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
16:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: reverse the page move of "
Villa Borghese Pinciana" from the redirect (it was at "Villa Borghese" until June 5, when the nominator moved it to its present title), then merge this article into it. That way both of them will be treated under "Villa Borghese", the hatnote will still point readers at other sites that might be called "Villa Borghese", and there won't be any problem distinguishing the house from its gardens. I'm really not sure why they need separate articles in the first place.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, what about having short sections about the gardens and the galleries in the article about the house, with "main article" hatnotes leading to the more expansive articles about the gardens and galleries? I do think that the plain title should go to the house.
P Aculeius (
talk)
22:04, 27 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Horticulture and Gardening, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to
Horticulture and
Gardening on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Horticulture and GardeningWikipedia:WikiProject Horticulture and GardeningTemplate:WikiProject Horticulture and GardeningHorticulture and gardening articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ItalyWikipedia:WikiProject ItalyTemplate:WikiProject ItalyItaly articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Rome, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the city of
Rome and
ancient Roman history on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomeWikipedia:WikiProject RomeTemplate:WikiProject RomeRome articles
Villa Borghese invariably refers to the gardens as well as the structure. Wikipedia's "Villa Borghese gardens" is a recently-introduced solipsism that would have been avoidable by asking anyone who'd been in Rome: an Italian villa includes its gardens, fountains, casine, ninfei... (Yes
Boboli Gardens are an exception: they are urban gardens attached to a palazzo.) Entering "
Villa Borghese" at Wikipedia and finding a "disambiguation" doesn't serve the reader. The fact that "Villa Borghese" would apply to any villa belonging to a member of the Borghese goes without saying: the village is often appended when there is possible confusion:
Villla Medici for examples. --
Wetman10:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)reply
Edouard Andre contribution?
Has anybody relevant information about
Édouard André's role in designing these gardens?
Iulius 16:20, 22 September 2006
External links modified
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on
Villa Borghese gardens. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit
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The following is a closed discussion of a
requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a
move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus that giving the primary title "Villa Borghese" to the gardens would be confusing to readers. Note that this consensus only opposes the title "Villa Borghese"; late in the discussion, the title "Villa Borghese (park)" was also proposed, and did not attract enough attention to develop a consensus in either direction. Accordingly, an RM that proposes a move to a parenthetically disambiguated title may be opened at any time. (
closed by non-admin page mover)
ModernDayTrilobite (
talk •
contribs)
18:54, 10 July 2023 (UTC)reply
Comment: reading over the article one might get the impression that the article is about the Villa Borghese—but in fact the villa has its own article, under a slightly different title:
Villa Borghese Pinciana, evidently to distinguish it from other villas owned by the Borghese family, which according to that article may also be referred to as Villa Borghese, although the ones that have Wikipedia articles are listed under other names. I'm not too surprised, since a villa is a house, and this article is almost entirely about the gardens, with one paragraph mentioning that the
Galleria Borghese is in the house. Now, given the length it might be appropriate to consider merging this article into the article about the house itself, which is quite short. Then the house and gardens would be discussed together. But that would be different from the proposed move, which keeps the articles separate, but which would have confusing titles—as if both were about the house, and neither of them about the gardens.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:58, 6 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Support. It is indeed confusing that these are the gardens of a building called the Villa Borghese, but the park does itself appear to be commonly known simply as the Villa Borghese and is the primary topic for the term. Italian Wikipedia just calls it the Villa Borghese. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
09:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Indeed. But the park around the house (which is Rome's largest park) is invariably referred to simply as the Villa Borghese, not the Villa Borghese gardens or any Italian variant. Essentially, Wikipedia has made up the latter name.
WP:COMMONNAME and
WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. The villa itself is more commonly referred to as the
Galleria Borghese, which it contains. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
15:25, 8 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Oppose as too confusing. "Common name" for what? The house already has two articles,
Villa Borghese Pinciana and
Galleria Borghese. Romans do indeed refer to the whole area as the "Villa Borghese", but this article is about the gardens/park, and the name needs to reflect this. There are plenty of comparable examples -
Hampton Court Palace and
Hampton Court Park, both normally just called "Hampton Court"; then there's Versailles....
Johnbod (
talk)
23:51, 25 June 2023 (UTC)reply
These are not comparable at all, as Hampton Court and Versailles refer overwhelmingly to the palaces, whereas Villa Borghese refers overwhelmingly to the gardens. However, if it is not seen as the primary topic (which I continue to maintain it is), may I suggest
Villa Borghese (park) rather than the current made-up name, as Wikipedia is not generally in the business of making up names. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
14:10, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
I think you'll find that the Versailles gardens, and other buildings in them, get more visitors than the palace (as is the case with the VB no doubt), so I don't know where "refers overwhelmingly" comes from.
Johnbod (
talk)
16:11, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
If you say "Versailles" you generally mean the whole thing (and possibly the town too). If you say "Château de Versailles" you mean just the palace. If you say "Villa Borghese", however, you generally mean just the park. If you meant the palace, you'd say "Galleria Borghese". As I said, they're not comparable, because if you specify "Château" you're only referring to the building. But if you say "Villa" you're referring to both and are more likely to be referring to the park. Versailles is not relevant to this discussion. --
Necrothesp (
talk)
16:52, 26 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Suggestion: reverse the page move of "
Villa Borghese Pinciana" from the redirect (it was at "Villa Borghese" until June 5, when the nominator moved it to its present title), then merge this article into it. That way both of them will be treated under "Villa Borghese", the hatnote will still point readers at other sites that might be called "Villa Borghese", and there won't be any problem distinguishing the house from its gardens. I'm really not sure why they need separate articles in the first place.
P Aculeius (
talk)
13:33, 27 June 2023 (UTC)reply
Well, what about having short sections about the gardens and the galleries in the article about the house, with "main article" hatnotes leading to the more expansive articles about the gardens and galleries? I do think that the plain title should go to the house.
P Aculeius (
talk)
22:04, 27 June 2023 (UTC)reply
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.