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I see in the article a lot of musings on what poetry is. That's appropriate in the Vietnamese language wikipedia, but here in the English wikipedia it is the main Poetry article that should carry the generic stuff. So I will shorten this article accordingly and try not to remove anything that is informative about Vietnamese poetry in particular. Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I've added a little intro to this section; I hope it's helpful. In my view it would be useful to restructure this section, segregating the elements that define a verseform (syllable count, tone patterns, rhyme) from other considerations (e.g. cadence) that as far as I can tell are elements of a poet's artistry, but not part of the generic verseform. (An English equivalent would be: consonance, assonance, pause, enjambment... all these may make a poem good, but none of them makes it a sonnet.) I'm particularly concerned that the word "rhyme" appears to be used both in its usual English sense, and for syllables that are obligatorily flat or sharp; these are distinct concepts and require distinct terminology.
May I submit for consideration the scansion method I recently concocted for Lục bát and Song That Luc Bat? I'll be happy to enumerate its virtues (as I see them) if anyone's interested. Finally, I'd be happy to help improve this article, but am hesitant to go very far without "adult supervision": I'm quite conversant in verse structure, but not at all in Vietnamese (or even French). Currently my only real source is Huynh Sanh Thong's seemingly quite good intro to An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems (the New Princeton Encyclopedia entry is -- uncharacteristically -- not so good). Phil wink ( talk) 17:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I've rewritten the section on Rhyme; in the process I've pretty heavily pruned the Vietnamese examples, as I think that generally schematics ("ABAB" etc.) are clearer to an English-language readership. I have not attempted to rewrite the middle ("prime", "secondary", and "??") section because I do not understand it. Specifically, is the third example (which is neither "prime" nor "secondary") a third type of accepted rhyme, an inexpert rhyme, or no kind of rhyme at all? (I assume the second example is to read "secondary", not "secondary prime"?) I'll also note that in the Vietnamese example for "ABAB", the "A" rhymes are sharp and the "B" lines are flat; however, since this was not mentioned in the text, I did not take this to be a structural requirment (as it appears to be in "ABBA"). Finally, I've removed some Vietnamese terms that may have been names for these stanzas, but it was not at all clear to me what their purpose was. If I've gone too far here, by all means we can put them back in, but they should be translated, or at the least their function should be indicated. "Alternate", "intermittent", and "envelope" are not translations of Vietnamese terms, but what I take to be the most standard English terms for these rhyme schemes. Phil wink ( talk) 01:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I found the orphaned page for Vè, which lead me here. I placed Vè in the 'see also' section, because while I think it should be linked to from this article, I'm not quite sure where the link should go here. Perhaps another editor can put the bluelink in a more appropriate place. PaintedCarpet ( talk) 15:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm attempting to push for big improvements on this article over the coming days/weeks/months. Following is my initial plan of action. It's not gospel... if anyone has better ways forward, great. I'm doing broad strokes now... fine details later.
1. Despite the topic, the Vietnamese language itself will mean nothing to almost all readers of this article. Therefore:
2. The article should begin with a major section on History. I suggest something like this structure (this comes from a very superficial reading so please, improve it if you can):
3. The article will continue with a section on Verse forms; this is more or less what we have now, but it will have to be consolidated and explained more fully.
4. Other sections could possibly be useful, but History and Verse forms should be the bulk of the article. I once thought maybe a section on "poetic devices" or "poetic language" might be useful -- but now I think it will probably be better to place passages that exemplify the artistry of particular periods into the main History section. Phil wink ( talk) 04:18, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Can someone clarify "Lạc vận" for me? I've now characterized it as "slant rhyme" in my latest edit. Am I right in assuming that "Lạc vận" requires 1) unrelated vowels 2) that are of the same tone class, and 3) identical final consonants? The original text has no definition and only the one example, so I can't be sure. Is this used more in modern verse? less formal verse? sloppy verse? Also, in the flat poor rhyme list, is "Minh" really right? If "canh" and "mình" are "Lạc vận", surely "Minh" doesn't belong with "khanh" does it? Phil wink ( talk) 20:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
I've searched for germane images in the Commons -- didn't find a lot. This can serve as a quarry as the article develops. Feel free to add any others, or pluck them if they're useful. If it is our ambition to get to "Good" or "Featured" (it doesn't have to be) this paucity of images may be a huge stumbling block. Phil wink ( talk) 02:49, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Also, I found this:
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Can an article about the noted Vietnamese poet Đào Tấn be added to en:WP? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 22:54, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Given that this is a page in English-language Wikipedia, could someone with knowledge of both Vietnamese and English please translate the poetry examples given into English? There's not much point in quoting some untranslated text as a good example of metaphor given the substantial proportion of people who will refer to this page who can't read/speak Vietnamese. JH1977 ( talk) 18:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
On Choixong di's alteration from:
to...
(emphasis mine) The relevant passage from the cited source runs "The earliest forms of Vietnamese poetry show the influence of Chinese domination over a long period and indeed were written in the Chinese language." (emphasis mine). So to the objection that "Would make non-Vietnamese people think that ancient Vietnamese poems were written in Chinese." Yes, that's what they'll think. It's what the source thinks too. Phil wink ( talk) 15:53, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Lachy70: What do you think of these (somewhat) equivalent paraphrases?
Gió đập cành đa, |
Wind smacks the banyan trees. |
Yêu nhau cau sáu bổ ba, |
In love, we’ll split the nut in three; |
Phil wink ( talk) 02:29, 27 January 2023 (UTC)
Vietnamese poetry received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article contains a translation of Thơ from vi.wikipedia. |
I see in the article a lot of musings on what poetry is. That's appropriate in the Vietnamese language wikipedia, but here in the English wikipedia it is the main Poetry article that should carry the generic stuff. So I will shorten this article accordingly and try not to remove anything that is informative about Vietnamese poetry in particular. Itsmejudith ( talk) 11:00, 9 February 2010 (UTC)
I've added a little intro to this section; I hope it's helpful. In my view it would be useful to restructure this section, segregating the elements that define a verseform (syllable count, tone patterns, rhyme) from other considerations (e.g. cadence) that as far as I can tell are elements of a poet's artistry, but not part of the generic verseform. (An English equivalent would be: consonance, assonance, pause, enjambment... all these may make a poem good, but none of them makes it a sonnet.) I'm particularly concerned that the word "rhyme" appears to be used both in its usual English sense, and for syllables that are obligatorily flat or sharp; these are distinct concepts and require distinct terminology.
May I submit for consideration the scansion method I recently concocted for Lục bát and Song That Luc Bat? I'll be happy to enumerate its virtues (as I see them) if anyone's interested. Finally, I'd be happy to help improve this article, but am hesitant to go very far without "adult supervision": I'm quite conversant in verse structure, but not at all in Vietnamese (or even French). Currently my only real source is Huynh Sanh Thong's seemingly quite good intro to An Anthology of Vietnamese Poems (the New Princeton Encyclopedia entry is -- uncharacteristically -- not so good). Phil wink ( talk) 17:44, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I've rewritten the section on Rhyme; in the process I've pretty heavily pruned the Vietnamese examples, as I think that generally schematics ("ABAB" etc.) are clearer to an English-language readership. I have not attempted to rewrite the middle ("prime", "secondary", and "??") section because I do not understand it. Specifically, is the third example (which is neither "prime" nor "secondary") a third type of accepted rhyme, an inexpert rhyme, or no kind of rhyme at all? (I assume the second example is to read "secondary", not "secondary prime"?) I'll also note that in the Vietnamese example for "ABAB", the "A" rhymes are sharp and the "B" lines are flat; however, since this was not mentioned in the text, I did not take this to be a structural requirment (as it appears to be in "ABBA"). Finally, I've removed some Vietnamese terms that may have been names for these stanzas, but it was not at all clear to me what their purpose was. If I've gone too far here, by all means we can put them back in, but they should be translated, or at the least their function should be indicated. "Alternate", "intermittent", and "envelope" are not translations of Vietnamese terms, but what I take to be the most standard English terms for these rhyme schemes. Phil wink ( talk) 01:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
I found the orphaned page for Vè, which lead me here. I placed Vè in the 'see also' section, because while I think it should be linked to from this article, I'm not quite sure where the link should go here. Perhaps another editor can put the bluelink in a more appropriate place. PaintedCarpet ( talk) 15:31, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm attempting to push for big improvements on this article over the coming days/weeks/months. Following is my initial plan of action. It's not gospel... if anyone has better ways forward, great. I'm doing broad strokes now... fine details later.
1. Despite the topic, the Vietnamese language itself will mean nothing to almost all readers of this article. Therefore:
2. The article should begin with a major section on History. I suggest something like this structure (this comes from a very superficial reading so please, improve it if you can):
3. The article will continue with a section on Verse forms; this is more or less what we have now, but it will have to be consolidated and explained more fully.
4. Other sections could possibly be useful, but History and Verse forms should be the bulk of the article. I once thought maybe a section on "poetic devices" or "poetic language" might be useful -- but now I think it will probably be better to place passages that exemplify the artistry of particular periods into the main History section. Phil wink ( talk) 04:18, 24 October 2014 (UTC)
Can someone clarify "Lạc vận" for me? I've now characterized it as "slant rhyme" in my latest edit. Am I right in assuming that "Lạc vận" requires 1) unrelated vowels 2) that are of the same tone class, and 3) identical final consonants? The original text has no definition and only the one example, so I can't be sure. Is this used more in modern verse? less formal verse? sloppy verse? Also, in the flat poor rhyme list, is "Minh" really right? If "canh" and "mình" are "Lạc vận", surely "Minh" doesn't belong with "khanh" does it? Phil wink ( talk) 20:25, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
I've searched for germane images in the Commons -- didn't find a lot. This can serve as a quarry as the article develops. Feel free to add any others, or pluck them if they're useful. If it is our ambition to get to "Good" or "Featured" (it doesn't have to be) this paucity of images may be a huge stumbling block. Phil wink ( talk) 02:49, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
Also, I found this:
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 4 external links on Vietnamese poetry. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
{{
dead link}}
tag to
http://ecadao.com/tieuluan/caudo/caudo.htmWhen you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{
Sourcecheck}}
).
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
Can an article about the noted Vietnamese poet Đào Tấn be added to en:WP? 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 22:54, 2 April 2020 (UTC)
Given that this is a page in English-language Wikipedia, could someone with knowledge of both Vietnamese and English please translate the poetry examples given into English? There's not much point in quoting some untranslated text as a good example of metaphor given the substantial proportion of people who will refer to this page who can't read/speak Vietnamese. JH1977 ( talk) 18:57, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
On Choixong di's alteration from:
to...
(emphasis mine) The relevant passage from the cited source runs "The earliest forms of Vietnamese poetry show the influence of Chinese domination over a long period and indeed were written in the Chinese language." (emphasis mine). So to the objection that "Would make non-Vietnamese people think that ancient Vietnamese poems were written in Chinese." Yes, that's what they'll think. It's what the source thinks too. Phil wink ( talk) 15:53, 18 November 2021 (UTC)
@ Lachy70: What do you think of these (somewhat) equivalent paraphrases?
Gió đập cành đa, |
Wind smacks the banyan trees. |
Yêu nhau cau sáu bổ ba, |
In love, we’ll split the nut in three; |
Phil wink ( talk) 02:29, 27 January 2023 (UTC)