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Note: This page contains material merged from the article Gin people. Please see that article's complete history here. See also Talk:Gin people. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 06:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The sections that does not cite any references or sources was deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.247.207 ( talk) 01:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Could someone update the number of oversea vietnamese in each country? There are more than 600,000 vietnamese in Cambodia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pringels000 ( talk • contribs) 15:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry if you oppose me, but I do not think that Ho Chi Minh would be deserving of being put as an example of a Vietnamese person, even though genetically he was one. 211.30.138.38 13:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Why someone removed my image set? Can we ban Minhtung91 for vandalising the page?
Does anyone know the origin of the ethnonym "Kinh", and why does it appear with the character for "capital" when used in Chinese? User:Le Anh-Huy
Here's another "ethnography" of ethnic Vietnamese in China. There is something quite ethnocentric about this Beijing-controlled website, as Russians and Koreans are referred to by their English ethnonyms, but the Viets are just called "Jing"! http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/EthnicGroups/136919.htm Le Anh-Huy 02:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Speculated Answer: Well, I heard this and I can't quite back it up, but it means the metropolitans, Kinh/Jing though means capital can also mean metropolitan. It's meaning maybe lost throughout the years, but could reflect that the modern Vietnamese ethnic group is neither the Lac or the other ethnic groups stated in the Legend of Lac Long Quan. Rather a mixed group of "metropolitans." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)
I am preapring a genetic study to answer your questions. Manything needs to be done now. My hypothesis is that Kinh people originating from southeast Asia and influenced by migration from southern China people. (Toiyeuvietnam). I inserted some new clues from genetic studies by Chinese scholars published in some famous articles (ex. American J Hum Genet, Science..). But my change in "Vietnamese people" topic is rejected due to unconstructive conclusion. This decision that is very quickly shows that the editor did not read these studies. It is not good way.
I don't know, but it is important to bear in mind that Việt (Yùe in modern Chinese, presumably Yuèt in ancient Chinese) means nothing other than "southern barbarian", i.e. non-Chinese south of the Yangzi river. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 ( talk) 20:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Kinh is a relatively late term used by the Vietnamese to distinguish themselves from the minorities in the mountains, as the Vietnamese are people originated from the capital or the metropolitan areas and have a culture that is quite different from the surrounding minorities due to Sinization. Normally, Vietnamese refer to themselves as "người Việt" (Viet people) but when they speak to the minorities in mountains they would refer to themselves as "người Kinh" (people of the metropolitan). Only when they speak to the Hoa (Chinese) minority, the Khmer minority, and the Cham minority, would they still refer to themselves "người Việt" (Viet people). Hope this helps. Sunnyrain90 ( talk) 22:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
It is true that "Kinh" means capital, which word is borrowed from Chinese. Kinh meaning "of the capital" is plausible but I think unlikely. It seems more likely to me that Kinh is the endonym of the people, while Nam Viet is the Chinese exonym. Nam Viet does indeed mean "southern barbarian", "barbarian" in this context specifically meaning "settled non-Han peoples south of the Yangtze River". Most of these people (except the Kinh of course) are now completely Sinified and identify as Han. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.71.129.233 ( talk) 06:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Large scale emigration did not occur immediately after the Vietnam War, despite the imagery of boat people fleeing on American helicopters and aircraft carriers. It was later around 1978 onwards did Chinese-Vietnamese flee in greater numbers, when their economic interests in the south were threatened by nationalisation.
Most of the Hoa are indeed discriminated by those so call pure Vietnamese; they call the Chinese ba -tau ( three boat people, funny they were boat people refugee too) even from the Viet language radio station in the West countries> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 ( talk) 20:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
This page said that there were 2 million northern Vietnamese who migrated south after 1954. The following page, however, states that there were around 1 million people migrating from the North to the South during two years after the Geneva Accords: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)
In fact, the number are under 1 million. I have changed the information in this page accordingly.
I don't see the purpose of having a separate article about the Gin, as if they were a different ethnic group. Hypothetically, it would be interesting to have an article about specifically about ethnic Vietnamese people in China, but we don't have anything like enough material for that yet. And anyway, "Gin" is just a different spelling of "Kinh", which is a synonym for "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Jing" is simply the Chinese pronunciation of that word. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 01:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There are large population Viet-Hoa in Western countries and successfully in business too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 ( talk) 20:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Technically, merging Gin people with Vietnamese people would be like merging African-American with Black people. So we should do the same with that article. 1028 00:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
According to legend, the first Vietnamese descended from the dragon lord Lạc Long Quân and a heavenly spirit Âu Cơ. They marrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_peopleied and had one hundred eggs, from which hatched one hundred children. Their eldest son Hùng Vương ruled as the first Vietnamese king. The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River delta and mixed with the indigenous population.
In 258 BC, An Dương Vương founded the kingdom of Âu Lạc in what is now northern Vietnam. In 208 BC, Chao Tuo (known as Triệu Đà in Vietnamese), a former Qin Dynasty general from China, allied with the leaders of the Yue peoples in modern-day Guangdong and declared himself King of Southern Yue. He defeated An Dương Vương and then combined Âu Lạc with territories in southern China and named his kingdom Nam Việt, or Southern Yue (南越). (Nam means south). Việt is cognate to yuet 越, which is the pronunciation of Yue in ancient Chinese and some modern southern Chinese dialects. The term was used for various peoples in the region south of China, including the regions of northern Vietnam.
http://www.vny2k.com/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese5.htm
I agree that we should clearly split myth and historical facts. Tridungvo 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Uhh, regardless of those elements you listed that are practiced amongst Vietnamese (betel nut chewing, lacquering of teeth), they’re not exclusive to Mon-Khmer speaking people but also practiced by Tai-Kadai (among others) people.
No matter where Vietnamese is classified language-wise, that does not necessarily prove that they’re close genetically to a specific group in that language family. Language and genetics are not the same thing - and I know now you’re gonna say that the only other possibility is that Vietnamese adopted Mon-Khmer language, but that’s not what I’m saying either! In any case, even though Vietnamese is language wise Mon-Khmer, it’s also obvious that Vietnamese shares 10 percent basic vocabulary with Tai-Kadai languages and similar grammar, not to mention pre-sinitic influenced Vietnamese also used stilt houses like Tai-Kadai people, among other examples. Vietnamese are most likely a mixture of mon-khmer and tai-kadai peoples, then you have to factor in the 1,000 year Chinese annexation/domination (in which massive immigration of Chinese is ruled out by scholars, but there is proof of some immigrations of Chinese throughout [read “The Birth of Vietnam” by Keith Taylor]). Even language and mixing aside, Vietnamese people know their history and origins and know for a fact that the cradle of Vietnamese civilization is based in North Vietnam. People are affected not just by genetics but also by environment, North Vietnam is strikingly different from many other areas in Southeast Asia in climate, with its four seasons and it actually gets cold! Making a claim for possibility of relation because of language at one point is ok, but you have to factor in a billion other factors as well.
By the way, an interesting tidbit=Japanese people - being a mix of yayoi and Jomon, also practice what is often deemed as indigenous southeast asian practices: including practice of animism and dyeing teeth black. Mojojojoinhawaii 04:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I must say that although the Vietnamese resemble the southern Chinese in cultural traditions, habits, and finally in their physical typology, i find the Southern Chinese often even more southeast Asian then the Vietnamese themselves in several ways. This may be some kind of far-fetched speculation, but I suspect the Vietnamese (in least in some of their gene pools) have much more "northern" origins. Perhaps the Mongols or others had some affect centuries ago? My own family is of Vietnamese origin, and many of my relatives have a very Central Asian, Japanese, and even Turkic look, and so they look a bit different from most of their other brethren, not to mention other southeast Asians. Until several years ago, I always thought nothing of this, and thought myself quite an "average" Asian-Canadian, until my late teen years when other Asians always had no idea where I was from, not to mention non-Asians. I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides, but people always think I look Mongolian, Japanese or Turkic; and finally, recently I have met other people of Vietnamese origin who look just like myself, and not like the majority or Vietnamese around me. ie. some Vietnamese guys (esp. in my family) have much more facial or body hair than most others, yet are entirely Vietnamese).
is their any historical evidence or research of Vietnamese having Altaic or otherwise "non-native" (ie. to the south China-Indochina basin) origins in their gene pool? This might have drastically affected the actual origins of the Vietnamese people. Le Anh-Huy 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually the so call pure Vietnamese ware mostly from the south ( mixes with Khmer ( Cambodian) !
That is a reasonable speculation. Since it is noticeable that Vietnamese people do not have one "homogenous" feature.
"Actually the so call pure Vietnamese ware mostly from the south ( mixes with Khmer ( Cambodian) !" ↑
- VERY DEROGATORY DEMEANOR COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO 'TRIES' TO WRITE UNBIASEDLY BUT ADD MIXTURES OF HATE UNLINING THEIR STATEMENTS.
MUST LIKE TALKING DOWN ABOUT OTHERS, WHOM DOES NOT SPROUT FROM YOUR GENE POOL? READ THISSS UP!! NO ONE PICK WHICH FAMILY THEY COME FROM. OR IF THEY GENETICALLY SHLD HAVE CURLY HAIR OR STRAIGHT. IT'S LAME THINKING & DESTRUCTIVE vs CONSTRUCTIVE. THINK WITH YOUR GOD GIVEN BRAIN!
PARTICULARLY, WHEN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SAYS.. WE ALL COME FROM AFRICA IN THE END, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. ALL SKINS & ALL TONES, EVERY RACE, EVERY COLOR. GROW UP KIDDO! LEAVE THE WAR IN THE PAST & STEP INTO THE 21ST CENTURY!
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/03/modern-humans-wandered-out-of-africa-via-arabia/
CONTINUITY OF RACIAL HATE IS REDUNDANT BECAUSE SOMEONE DESIRES TO THREAD ON ANOTHER IN ORDER TO FEEL A SENSE OF SUPERIOR. (SUPERIORITY COMPLEX - SEE A PSYCHOLOGIST!) YOUR INTERNAL DEWELLINGS IS PRESENTED AS "INSECURE" TO A PROFESSIONAL EYE. RACE SHLDN'T ELEVATE UR MENTAL SMALL STATURE. CHARACTER SHOULD!
UR SUBLIMINALLY RACIAL PROFILING & TARGETING CAMBODIANS, AS IF THEY ARE TO BLAME FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS! SO YOU UNDERSTAND, SOUTH VIETNAM WAS ALL KAMBOJA/CAMBODIA BECAUSE OF A MARRIAGE IN ATTEMPT TO UNITE THE PEOPLE AS ONE. ONCE A SHARED PROVENCE. SO DON'T BE SURPRISED, IF YOU CARRY CAMBODIAN GENES! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.71.109 ( talk) 02:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
TOPIC OF GENES IS GREAT, YOUR MATERNAL MITCHRONDRIAL DNA OR PATERNAL LINEAGE, WONDERFUL! KEEP TALKING!
IT'S SO DISGUSTING & DISTURBING, HOW YOU ADDRESS THE TOPIC & TARGET CAMBODIANS. APPRECIATE DIFFERENCES IN OTHER CULTURES & THEIR CONTRIBUTES. REMOVE BORDERS FROM UR BRAIN! AS MAN & WOMAN DON'T THINK ALIKE BUT COMPLIMENT ANOTHER, AS SO ANY CULTURES, CREEDS, BREEDS AND SKINS. GROW UP!
INCASE YOU WERE THINKING: I'M AN ARYO-TURCO MONGOL. HUMAN BY RACE.
wrong!!! you do not know know about China. Korean people and Hai nan people (southern island of China ) eat fish sauce too!
Quoted from Talk:Vietnamese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
a.) DHN responding to user:leaki, on the origin of the Vietnamese people: They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
b.) DHN responding to Le Anh-Huy's message of 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC), despite Le Anh-Huy clearly stating "I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides": ...You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo... 13 Sep 06.
c.) DHN's "scientific" claim of genetic make-up for Vietnamese of Chinese origin: Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.
Sirs,
Who is this DHN? I found his/her comments very disturbing. Bad English to start with (Cf. Quote a.) above). What rights to make such huge & offending statements on the world stage? They are far from accurate, to say the very least.
Yours sincerely, T.Vd./
I speculate that Vietnamese are mixture of the north (chinese) with the indigenous populations through out time, leaving much of the population looking somewhere on the spectrum of looking very east asian to looking very austronesasian. After all, there were many Chinese who moved down to Vietnam during the successive dynasties, who though were 100% Han in genetics identified with Vietnam as it was their home province, it might also make sense that chinese military men, stationed south without their women, found indigenous partners, leaving people of highly mixed sino-vietnamese stock. likewise, there are other probably those that live outside the cities, where the Hans used to congregate in ancient times, having less exposure to han genes also leaving us with those who look more "indigenous." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)
Instead of Eugene Trinh, why not have a picture of Pham Tuan? At least, he was the first Vietnamese cosmonaut, as well as the first Asian in space. Some Vietnamese Americans are so unwilling to recognize any progress that goes on "back home", preferring to only focus on personal achievements of Vietnamese-Americans who, are primarily doing the United States of America a favour, not Vietnam. Besides, Pham Tuan looks better, and will give the "ethnic photos" better exposure to Viets. Le Anh-Huy 05:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! Le Anh-Huy 22:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
But, there are speculations that that cosmonaut did nothing but "ride along". :D I think it's safer to use Eugene Trinh. He is Vietnamese, definitely. (Yes, us overseas Vietnamese are being arrogant, but we have the right to, don't we?) 220.239.231.118 11:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
i changed 'possibly related to southern chinese' to related to southern chinese. genetics study have shown that the vietnamese kinh are indeed closely related to them. we are genetically closer to them than the other peoples of southeast asia such as the thais, though we are somewhat closely related to the people of laos. the computer dictionary microsoft bookshelf 2000, also states that we are related to the southern chinese.
Possibly? Anyway, this is off-topic, but Vietnamese is not Chinese, right? People I know keep on saying that the Vietnamese people were from China (geographically originating from a part of today's China, yes, but I mean CHINA as in CHINA), which is stupid, in my opinion. 220.239.231.118 11:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
No. Vietnamese and Han Chinese are distinct ethnic groups. Vietnamese descended from minority ethnic groups in China, not Han Chinese. It's like Japanese vs Chinese. Academics suggest that modern Japanese people descended from Yayoi people originally from China, but yayoi were distinct from Han Chinese as well. Moreover, they mixed with Jomon people to form modern-day Japanese ethnicity. Same case with Vietnamese and Chinese.
From: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714
Quote: the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not. 116.15.11.188 ( talk) 13:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
What is the reason for including "Yue (state)" and "King Gou Jian of Yue" under "Also see"? Both these "Yue" refer to what is now Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces in China and not are related to Vietnam. LDHan 11:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
What's this? Ho Chi Minh got removed whereas some strange guy with American flag on one arm and another in the background is put on as an example of a Vietnamese? This is serious POV, especially when this is an article about Vietnamese in general, not Vietnamese American. I will remove it if no one can give me a satisfying explanation. Hawkie 14:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
First, there is no need to go into detail about Vietnamese people in specific a country, China in this case. There is no discussion of Vietnamese people in Thailand or South Korea and what they are labeled there because it is not needed. The Diaspora section covers all that is needed about Vietnamese people living abroad. Besides there are other Wikipedia articles that discuss Vietnamese people living outside of Vietnam or in a specific country (Vietnamese Canadians, Vietnamese Australians, etc). Remember this article is about the Kinh ethnic group not about Vietnamese living abroad.
I would rather said the so call really vietnemanse are from Champa kingdom!
Vietnamese spelling were invented from the French! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 ( talk) 21:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Second, why are so many translations of Vietnamese words to their Mandarin equivalent? Remember this is a Vietnamese article not a Chinese one. Do you see Vietnamese translations of Chinese names and places in Chinese articles? The answer is no because Vietnamese translations are unnecessary in Chinese articles just like Chinese translations in Vietnamese ones.
I believe this article should be edited to omit all the Chinese references, which are unnecessary to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 ( talk) 15:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
If nobody responses in a week I will go ahead make the edits myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 ( talk) 15:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Vietnamese may have been originally written in Chinese, but it is not really pervalent in today's time. Hardly any Vietnamese are taught to read or write in Chinese script so it is pretty much useless if they can't understand it. Actually the Vietnamese sound are closely to Camtonese. Vietnamese spelling was invented by the French not Vietnamese them self!
So is it okay to delete this passage? "In the People's Republic of China, they are among the recognized minority groups based especially in or around Guangxi Province and are known in Mandarin Chinese through their derivative name Jing/Gin (京) or "Jingzu"/"Ginzu" (京族)." As I have stated this article should concentrate about the Kinh ethnic group. There is no need to go to mention what Vietnamese are labeled outside of their country. There is no metion of what Vietnamese are called in other countries like Laos or Thailand because it is unnecessary just like this passage. It more appropriate in the "Vietnamese people in China" article.
Because today's vietnam, was until quite recently a part of the Chinese Empire, where it was known as the Province of Annam, as were the other two SE countries of Laos and Cambodia. Other territories that were once a part of the Chinese Empire include the whole of the Korean peninsular as well as Outer Mongolia and Tuva.
217.42.59.59 (
talk)
02:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Other subselections this article should include is culture, food, attire, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.22.23 ( talk) 15:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
i am requesting the admin to remove this article from the vietnamese origin's section
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118967451/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
where in the article did it mention hakka, southern chinese, singapore chinese are classsifed with vietnamese? there's no basis and truth in it
please be more strctly before you approve ridiclous infromation like that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 12:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Vietnamese have no genetic relation to Han Chinese. They are related only to the minority ethnic groups in Southern China.
Vietnamese and Han Chinese are distinct ethnic groups. Vietnamese descended from minority ethnic groups in China, not Han Chinese. It's like Japanese vs Chinese. Academics suggest that modern Japanese people descended from Yayoi people originally from China, but yayoi were distinct from Han Chinese as well. Moreover, they mixed with Jomon people to form modern-day Japanese ethnicity. Same case with Vietnamese and Chinese.
From: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714
Quote: the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not. 116.15.11.188 ( talk) 13:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Linerqi, please substantiate your claims with scientific findings or authoritative sources, instead of vague terms like "modernly accepted" opinions (which may be your one-sided view for all we know.) 116.15.11.188 ( talk) 13:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I think a section on the genetic origin of the Vietnamese people should be added. It is modernly accepted among geneticist that the Vietnamese people have a dual genetic origin from the Chinese and the Thai, with certain Vietnamese more closely related to the Chinese and others more closely related to the Thai.
For example here: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j.1365-2370.1999.00184.x?cookieSet=1
I think this section is important because while geographic, linguistic and cultural characteristics can be masked and changed depending on how and where a person is raised up, nobody can hide from their genetic code as it will always pinpoint exactly who they are, and where they come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Linerqi ( talk • contribs) 05:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Also to add, Vietnamese people are genetically grouped with Miao, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyi and Thais, implying that they are closely related.
For example here: http://www.wufi.org.tw/taiwan/lml2e.jpg
you must be kidding me, thats a outdated DNA map from 1972, i mean 1972? are you ok? basing on ychromosome and ydna, you guys are totally different
why are you vietnamese so desperate to relate to chinese? map like these are circulated everywhere on the interent, what studies is this map based on? will the admin at least try to understand what these non-source studies are based on first before you approved it in the offical article?
please admin remove the false information without eveidence for back up
i can easily find DNA maps like that with different results [IMG] http://i46.tinypic.com/2e6hspj.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG] http://i50.tinypic.com/eqxmpz.jpg[/IMG]
i think vietnamese are pretty desperate....and have no shame...im sure you ancestor is very upset not if they know theres an offspring liek you —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 13:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I think I would rather not be associate in any remote way possible to the like of you. Just thinking about me and you may have one chance in six billion share one similar chromosome make me want to puke. Truly, if I share the same gene pool as you I would rather kill myself and do the world a favor. I am sure that your ancestors are ashamed of having one such delusional offspring as you. Please, don't procreate. If your children are so unfortunate as to be born by the like of you, please, don't teach them anything. I pity them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 ( talk) 08:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Linerqi ( talk) 05:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
What is this? Is there a Vietnamese term? I can find absolutely no sources about this at all: Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. cab ( talk) 03:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
It should be called "Bani" Islam, a form of Islam that was syncretized into Malay culture...but the internationalists among the Cham and Malay Muslim community are trying to get rid of it, for a more puritan form of Islam. Le Anh-Huy ( talk) 11:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
it. DHN ( talk) 03:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________________
For more information go to these sites.
http://www.chamstudies.com/members/agnesdefeo(transgressionsdelislam).pdf
Video on Cham Bani in Vietnamese with French translations and comments.
http://bangsacham.com/Videos.html
sorry but what is DNA map based on? dont use the outdated study those are only based on blood types which is a totally outdated method , you should study the YDNA and MTDNA of both groups all southern chinese fatherline(YDNA) are closely related to northen while vientmaes are not even the vietnmase MTDA has nothing in common with southern chinese blood type can easily affect by the tempature and climate south chinese and south east asian live in similar climate which the study tend to show they are related but YDNA and MTDNA has already refulted this claim —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Takima ( talk) 13:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Why does the entry 'Viet' redirect to this article? The Vietnamese ethnicity is part of a much larger grouping of Viet peoples (just as the Turkish ethnic group is part of a much larger grouping of Turkic peoples). A disambiguation page needs to be provided to address this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.206 ( talk) 02:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Please note that the idea that 'Viet' only refers to the Vietnamese people is a misnormer (and possibly racist too). Cantonese, Hokkien and many other ethnic groups that originate in South East Asia are also Viet peoples. It must also be noted that the ancestors of ALL these peoples were NOT related to the Han people in any way.
By the way, what is this 'something else' called? Is it a derogatory term that just promotes a 'us and them' attitude? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.150.242 ( talk) 23:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
If 'Viet' really is used exclusively in the Vietnamese language to refer to ethnic Vietnamese, then I regret to say that I find such usage extremely offensive. As far as I am aware, 'Viet' as used in the English language refers to no only ethnic Vietnamese but also many other non-Vietnamese 'Viet' peoples (such as the Cantonese peoples). The bottomline: a disambiguation page needs to be provided to distinguish between the various meanings that 'Viet' might be construed to be. As the page stands, if one were looking for information on the various Viet peoples, they would be sent straight to this page without any opportunity to go to the correct article beforehand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.148.100 ( talk) 01:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
PS: It is clear that an 'us and them' attitude between the Vietnamese and other Viet peoples is well and truely alive here. It would appear that many people here do not really know much about history or are seeking to promote biased views. 122.105.148.100 ( talk) 03:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The redirect in question has been converted into a disambiguation page. Hopefully, this will reduce confusion. David873 ( talk) 08:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Cantonese people = Vietnamese?!! That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! If you come to Asia, all Cantonese/Hakka/Hoklo people think of themselves as Han Chinese, or sub-groups of Han Chinese (what we call 籍贯). Each sub-groups has their distinct regional accents and practices, but we are all descended from Han Chinese people in the Yangtze basin.
Plese, Vietnamese people, do not make unsubstantiated claims and link yourself to us. Korea tried to steal our culture by registering it, but they failed. Please have more self-respect. Vietnamese people already have a bad reputation within Chinese communities, because some people make up lies like that. Please stop it! 220.255.37.161 ( talk) 09:21, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
First, Vietnamese are proud Vietnamese people, period. We neither want or care to associate ourselves with other, especially the Chinese people. All those attempted to do so are not, in any sense or any way, Vietnamese, that I can assure you. A thousand years of Chinese domination is enough, thank you very much. We fought with blood and bone to NOT be associated with the Chinese. Try to read history please. We can stand on our own. Stop with the delusion.
Second, we are genetically Vietnamese. Nothing more, nothing less. You people who are not even Vietnamese people have no business talking about genetic composition of the Vietnamese people. Unless you have concrete evident to the contrary (i.e. two gene map on your hand with point by point comparison between Vietnamese people and ____ people (fill in the blank)), please do yourself a favor and be quiet. Wikipedia is not a faith based institution, and your belief means nada here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 ( talk) 09:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
The third paragraph in the opening section contains several statements concerning Vietnamese genetics supported by two separate sources. The first source is hosted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), which is a perfectly acceptable source for this type of study. However, the user who added this information probably did not reflect the whole study, the user also changed (deliberately?) and perhaps manipulated the content a bit; in the NCBI research, it states [3]:
“ | The comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals. However, the Vietnamese population can be differentiated by the significantly higher frequency of the enzyme morph HincII-5 and by seven new markers. These results strongly support the hypothesis of a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from the Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations based on HLA markers and linguistic evidence. | ” |
However, the information on this Wikipedia article which cited this reference is written as:
“ | Genetic studies in the past decade have shown that the Vietnamese population exhibits genetic markers that are closely related and/or identical to those of Southern Chinese populations, with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai populations. | ” |
In order to reflect the complexity of human genetics, we need to approach the information in a scentific perspective, rather than making it seem like ethnic-oriented (i.e. stating Vietnamese are closer to which ethnic group rather than...).
However, the second source (a map) [4], unlike the first source which is hosted by a reputed research center that specializes on fields such as molecular biology, microbiology and biochemistry, is of unknown orgin and is hosted by the website called "wufi.org", which is a political organization titled "World United Formosans For Independence" ( WUFI). I'm afraid it automatically advertizes a politically-oriented sentiment in its contents. Evenmore so, this reference was only a graph depicting genetic clusters, it did not denote such statements as it was written on this article. So by puting forth statements simply based on personal observation of the graph is not acceptable.-- DerechoReguerraz ( talk) 06:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
On Page 421 of the article, the author asserts that when he/she refers to Orientals, he/she is predominantly talking about Chinese populations. The word Southern was added because the cross-referenced studies (Blanc et al ., 1983 and Johnson et al ., 1983) took samples predominantly from the Canton province. The author makes the conclusion that the genetic markers are closely related and/or identical in Table 4 of the same page. If you read his discussion, he talks about all of the related genetic markers, and then concludes that with this (in the very last sentence), that the Vietnamese population came from Chinese/Thai populations.
The article can be accessed on the same page with a subscription to the service or with access through a higher education system (Students, Faculty, Post-Doctorate Researchers of most mid to upper-tier Universities). Linerqi ( talk) 01:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
A proper source has also been added for the second claim. The paper clearly states the genetic cluster on page 194 (once again, you will need either a subscription or be affiliated with a high quality University/Research Center to see the paper). Linerqi ( talk) 01:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Why are Cantonese and Teo Chew not listed? Many ethnic Vietnamese around the world are fluent in speaking at least one of these languages in addition to Vietnamese. David873 ( talk) 03:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
By the way, there ought to be a brief mention of the Hoa people as they are really ethnically Vietnamese and there are no real differences between 'native' Vietnamese and Hoa people. After all, the Cantonese people are closely related to the Vietnamese people in a genetic, ethnic and cultural sense, a closeness that can only be intensified by the very high rate of 'intermarriage' between the 'Hoa' people and 'native' Vietnamese. Please do not say that Hoa people are ethnically Chinese; this is just a political trick designed to promote hatred based on non-existent ethnic differences.
no you are not related to cantonese people at all, cantonese YDNA is closely related to northen han while MTDNA is related Zhuang instead of vietnamese vietnamese are related to khmer people
David873 (
talk)
04:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
"The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River Delta and mixed with the indigenous population.{{Fact|date=August 2007}}<!--When did this happen? Need much more detail about this.-->" Badagnani ( talk) 20:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
____________________________________________________________________
That's the reason of this "disputation" that led me to put some words on the "earlier Vietnamese groups" now repelled to the highland.
Takima ( talk) 15:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Vietnamese people have more chinese DNA than their own!
look at this
According to a research study done by the Hopital Saint-Louis in Paris, France: "the comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals," with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations [1]. According to another research by the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei, Taiwan, the Vietnamese people are classified in the same genetic cluster as the Miao, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyi and Thai, with a divergent family consisting of Singaporean and Thai Chinese, Minnan ( Hoklo) and Hakka. [2] ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk) 21:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Chinese have "Vietnamese" DNA? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow. References, please.
As for certain theories being "denounced" - interesting choice of word, that - it doesn't make that theory wrong. Plenty of groups may have immigrated to the Red River Delta from "China" - whether southern China (i.e. non-Han) or northern (i.e. Han or proto-Han or Han-esque) - long before the Qin or Han or whatever state reached there. I think this is the issue, not how much "Chinese" blood entered Vietnam after the Chinese conquest.
As someone mentioned, the truth often hurts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 ( talk) 10:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
If by saying Chinese have vietnamese DNA means that the majority or maybe even all Chinese peoples have vietnamese DNA, then it is blatantly untrue. Of course there are some Chinese people who share some of their DNA with some vietnamese people. However the reverse statement that vietnamese have Chinese DNA is actually true. That is vast number of vietnamese people have DNA that originated from people in China. Also chronologically in history, the Chinese peoples established their states a long time before there was any mention of vietnam or vietnamese. Vietnamese people are an off-shoot of the Chinese, not the other way round, and for that they should be grateful instead of the usual vietnamese feeling of jealousy and competition. Similarly it is meaningless to talk of the English people or England prior to the 4th century AD/CE, as there was no people called the English prior to that time, nor a place of that name. So to recap, vietnamese people came along a long time after the Chinese people were established in history, and the vietnamese were an off-shoot of the Chinese. 217.42.59.59 ( talk) 02:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
no you have nothing to do with any sub han groups, that is only based on blood types according to ydna and mtdna you are more closely related to khmer and lao people all southenr han groups are closely related to northen han i wonder why all the vietnamese are so desperate to link chinese... —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 12:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I've added this chapter in recognition of the "first nations" of what is today Vietnam. The distinction is on dry and wet rice agriculture.Next chapter can be influences from the South with the Champa kingdom and from the North with China.
Takima ( talk) 21:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It should perhaps be pointed out that the 'first nations' of what is today vietnam, and the present day vietnamese are not related genetically.
217.42.59.59 (
talk)
02:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
In response to these discussions, I have added the "earlier Vietnamese groups" followed by influences from the south with the Champa and from the north with China after 6 months in Vietnam, mainly on the Mekong delta ("Cuu Long") for a field work on politology and anthroplogy of the islamic Cham Bani and buddhist Khmer Krom. I've just spent 1 month around Lai Chau-Dien Bien.
Takima ( talk) 00:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
"Archaeological evidence of the bronze age Dong Son Culture, also known as Lac Society, suggest the ancient Vietnamese people were among the first to practice agriculture."
The Đông Sơn Culture, depending on the Wikipedia source stretching from 1,000 BC to 3079 BC until 258 BC or so, makes "the ancient Vietnamese people one of the first to practise agriculture"? I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 ( talk) 10:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
A full six images in the infobox of historical figures (83 percent of whom are male) isn't balanced. As with any ethnic group article, notable living people of various professions should also be included. Can this please be corrected? Badagnani ( talk) 06:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, these are still all historical figures. There should be at least one or two active, living people who are doing something productive at the present time. Badagnani ( talk) 09:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
What happened to all the females? Where has the girl in ao dai gone? Why are these all in black and white? And a drawing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.53.198 ( talk) 06:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
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From 2.1 to 2.4, I have put "the earlier Vietnamese groups" and ended the full subjet with "the first Vietnamese". All these come from my own published works in French as well as the ones by Paul Mus and Bernard B. Fall with references from EFEO (École Française d'Extrême Orient) scholars.
Takima ( talk) 21:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
______________________________________
Vietnamese People on "youtube" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqxiIvejroA&feature=related
Takima ( talk) 15:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
From 2-1 to 2-4, the sources are notes from 6 to 11. Please refere yourself to the notes, showing the referential sources.
Takima ( talk) 16:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.erudit.org/revue/ei/1987/v18/n3/702210ar.pdf
1987 paper in French Relations Internationales" on "The colonizations of Vietnam and Vietnamese colonialism".
As in most countries, the first inhabitants were pushed by newcomers in remote bad lands for the USA and Australia or highlands for Vietnam.
In Vietnam, the first inhabitants came from the south Austrasia by the Sunda Shelf. Then from the North came the Cantonese Yue settling on the Red River delta. As time goes by they turned to be different from their cousin in Guangdong and make their own new contry different from the one they came and they name it " Nanyue" Vietnamized in Nam Viet. Further south flourished indianized Khmer Kingdom and Champa kingdom.
The next step was the "drive to the south" ( Nam Tien) not different from the germanic " Drang nach Osten", colonizing the Champa and then the khmer, vietnamizing the Mekong delta, with the help of Chinese immigrants and refugees. http://paristimes.net/fr_culture/immigr-chinoise-ntheanh.html "Immgration chinoise et la colonisation du delta du Mékong".
Takima ( talk) 22:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
The current transcription of Vietnamese , using Latin alphabet, was not the work by the French. According to most scholars, including French scholars like Pierre Huard and Maurice Durand, members of the French School of the Far East, indicate that "la romanisation du vietnamien" was an international and collective work. The work was wrongly attributed to Alexandre de Rhodes who published his "anamite-latin-portugais" dictionary in 1651. Later, Pigneau de Behaine and then Taberd continued this undertaking to achieve the current transcription of Vietnamese. T.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.34.255 ( talk) 21:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
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Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
Could someone update the number of Oversea Vietnameses in each country. There are more than 600,000 Vietnamese in Cambodia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pringels000 ( talk • contribs) 15:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
why "Southern Chinese or other people in South China" in infobox related people? proof? where reference say vietnam people relate to south chinese? where source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhan Tuo ( talk • contribs) 03:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
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I'd like to suggest—since this article is about an ethnic group rather than a nationality proper (i.e., the people of the nation-state of Vietnam), and as such does not include all the populations native to the country of Vietnam who may in this latter sense rightfully be called "Vietnamese" (nor does it include only those populations, but even populations that have always lived outside its borders...), and since apparently the name "Vietnam" itself strongly suggests an emphasis on the south Viet people only—that its title be changed to the arguably more precise Viet people, retaining all the current redirects plus of course an added redirect for those who may still search on Vietnamese people. Regarding the latter proposed new redirect, a search on "Vietnamese people" might alternatively direct to a disambiguation page referring on the one hand to the several native ethnic groups of the nation of Vietnam (perhaps linked to Vietnam#Ethnicity?), and on the other hand, to the present article, renamed Viet people, about this particular ethnic group, which even in bygone eras has transcended the borders of Vietnam. How do people feel about this? Would someone like to take on the task? I strongly suggest it, in the interest of preciseness only. (Please Note, I have no personal vested interest in the issue; I merely noticed the ambiguity of the title as it is now, and decided on that basis alone to raise this proposal.) IfYouDoIfYouDon't ( talk) 00:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity in the 15th century
Le historians like Ngô Sĩ Liên were commisioned by the dynasty to create creation myths for their ethnic group, so Ngo claimed that the Kinh were descended from Emperor Shennong
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc30ytJmwzMC&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false
18:51, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Nguyen Emperor Minh Mang claimed that the Vietnamese had the right to call themselves Han people 漢人.
http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue4/article_353.html
Minh Mang called Vietnam "Zhongguo" 中國
04:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Someone has kept changing around the infobox of notable Vietnamese people in the last few months. It is now, quite frankly, literally unrecognizable from before. Many people I do not recognize to be notable. And, there is now only one Vietnamese female here, down from 3 before! Frankly, I find that last part to be shameful.
I'm not sure what's the reason with this. It was fine the way it was before, until someone chose to delete the picture for it... I propose changing the list back to what it was here before: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vietnamese_people&oldid=564325184
Top: Triệu Thị Trinh • Nam Phương • Trưng Sisters
Middle: Phan Bội Châu • Lê Lợi • Nguyen Dinh Chieu
Bottom: Lê Văn Duyệt • Ho Chi Minh • Ngô Bảo Châu
Or, at the very least, to expand this list. Maybe we can add back in Triệu Thị Trinh and the Trưng Sisters, and also include Hồ Xuân Hương as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.208.179.66 ( talk) 16:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
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I would like an edit for the 'Vietnamese people' page. The notable people represented at the the top right of the page are all men. I request you to add a or some female notable such as Hai Ba Trung or Ba Trieu. It's a unfair mistake to let people from other countries think that Vietnamese women are not well-regarded compared to men. Thanks. Maido97 ( talk) 08:55, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Not done - It is NOT that I disagree with you, but we have no pictures of
Bà Triệu, and the picture on the
Trưng Sisters page is horizontal and very unclear. I tried adding the Trung sisters picture into the 3x3 array, but it looks silly,
you can see my test here. If you can find some suitable pictures on Wikipedia, or Wikipedia Commons, please re-suggest this, and link to the pictures. -
Arjayay (
talk)
14:53, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add pictures of notable Vietnamese people to the side, like most other pages on ethnic groups? Specifically this (from the Viet version) :
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.75.74 ( talk) 00:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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The article cites Geno by National Geographic, but they have updated their tests.
According to the newer Geno 2.0, Vietnamese are 83% Southeast Asian:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations-next-gen/
Doublestuff ( talk) 18:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I would like to suggest a move for the pages Vietnamese people to Kinh people ("metropolitans"/"city-people") and for Demographics of Vietnam to go to Vietnamese people due to various factors that make the current wording and phrasing of the article problematic.
A mistake I found on the article ethnic groups in Vietnam is that the term "dan toc" means "minority" and that all non-Vietnamese people in Vietnam are somehow called "dan tocs", I looked for a source to back it up but some errors just slip through Wikipedia as the term "dan toc" actually means "ethnic group" and could mean any ethnic group.
And the term "Viet Nam" when used on official documents almost always is meant to describe the nationality of the person rather than their ethnicity (with the notable exception being the Vietnamese source below where a German national writes down their ethnic group as "Viet Nam" while the Vietnamese national uses "Kinh").
I'm not sure if anyone fact-checked all the sources but the Dutch CBS includes descendants of Vietnamese nationals, not just ethnic Kinh people so the number could also include various minorities like the Montagnards. The differentiation between various ethnic groups within Vietnam often doesn't exist with overseas communities (with the notable exception of the H'mông).
Personally I want to avoid doing any original research and tried to look for Vietnamese sources that described the majority of Vietnam as "ethnic Vietnamese" but I only found foreign newspapers like the American "Nguoi Viet".
Another good example as to why we need to move this page to Kinh people is because it incorrectly assumes that ethnic minorities in Vietnam are either "foreigners" or "non-Vietnamese people living in Vietnam" which are both untrue, this double standard isn't applied with either " Japanese people" (which is separate from Yamato people to differentiate the dominant ethnic group from Ainu people, and Ryukyuan's while still having a page about the general demographics of Japan) and " Chinese people"/" Taiwanese people" (中國人) as opposed to Han Chinese (漢人) who are the majority of "Chinese people"/"Taiwanese people".
Though an argument can be made that ethnicity is purely about self-identification as Minh Mang called Vietnam "China"/"Taiwan" (中國) in relation to Cambodian people, and referred to Vietnamese people as "Chinese people"/"Taiwanese people" (漢人), but that's besides the point as we do differentiate between a national of "China"/"Taiwan" and the Han ethnic group.
Even if we'd were to argue that although the government and most of the time the people (here) in Vietnam themselves use the term Nguoi Viet to describe them, it still isn't the same as "Vietnamese", which implies a national of the country of Vietnam which isn't a nation-state of "the Vietnamese people" but a multi-ethnic region, even the word "Vietnamese" is purely geographical as it comes from the "Chinese" language/"Taiwanese" language term "Jyut-Naam" which means the southern areas of the Jyut (a Chinese/Taiwanese term to describe non-Chinese/non-Taiwanese people from certain areas), and I have yet to find any Vietnamese language sources that when in relation to other ethnic groups call the Kinh group anything other than Kinh.
-- 42.113.199.29 ( talk) 07:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Why the title of this article is confusing.
Above I created an argument as to why this article should be moved to “Kinh people” because of the ambiguity of the term “Vietnamese people” but now let me try to phrase it better.
I’ve made this argument before but “Chinese people”/”Taiwanese people” doesn't exclusively include Han Chinese, but also various other ethnic groups such as Zhuang people, Mongolian people, Tibetan people, Taiwanese aboriginals, Muslims, and yes even Kinh-Chinese people while searching “Vietnamese people” only leads to the Kinh, further on the subject of nationality Vs. ethnicity.
In China/Taiwan there’s a difference between Chinese/Taiwanese people (Trung Quoc Nhan), Chinese/Taiwanese Nationals (Trung Quoc Quoc Dan), and Chinese/Taiwanese citizens (Trung Quoc Cong Dan), even if we’d make the argument that only Han people are “ethnic Chinese”/”ethnic Taiwanese” it would be difficult to explain if a Zhuang person living in Denmark would or wouldn't qualify as “a Chinese person”/”a Taiwanese person” since they’re not “ethnic Chinese”/”ethnic Taiwanese”.
Vietnam has something similar to the above, with the Chinese/Taiwanese all Chinese/Taiwanese people living outside of China/Taiwan are “Hoa Kieu”, all Hoa Kieu are “Trung Quoc Nhan” but none of them are “Trung Quoc Cong Dan” (as they’re not registered in a Ho Khau), and only some of them are “Trung Quoc Quoc Dan”. Meanwhile the figures for “overseas Vietnamese” (Viet Kieu) also include minorities such as Montagnards, H'mông, Tay, Muong, Etc. for example I'm quite familiar with the Dutch Statistics Bureau and they always base statistics on national origin, not ethnic origin. For this reason North-Koreans, and South-Koreans living in the Netherlands are counted separately, while people from Belgium (who could be either Flemish, Walloon, or Rhine-Prussian) are all counted as “Belgians”.
With this in mind the statistics of the number of “Kinh people” in Vietnam becomes quite accurate, but immediately falls apart with the overseas numbers (Viet Kieu), let’s not forget that an overseas Cham is still a Vietnamese national, and a Cham living in Vietnam is still a Vietnamese citizen with “Quoc Tich Viet Nam”.
Wikipedia does a great job with keeping the Han-Chinese people article separate from “Chinese people”/”Taiwanese people”, and conversely over 90% of all Chinese/Taiwanese nationals ‘’are’’ Han, while less than 80% of all Vietnamese nationals are Kinh.
The WP:COMMONNAME article falls apart when all official statistics bureaus from Viet Nam itself name the ethnic group “Kinh”, and the article become gravely unreliable when it starts putting non-Kinh in the article.
Above here on the talk page there’s a discussion on including Eugene Trinh, the first Non-Hispanic Vietnamese-American in space in the infobox because he’s a notable and recogniseable Vietnamese person, and completely ignoring the first Oriental in space (who was also Vietnamese) because of some political issue, but the argument to put Trinh here falls really apart when Trinh is actually a Hoa (“Chinese”/”Taiwanese” from Viet Nam), and not a Kinh. Either this article is consistently about Vietnamese nationals and their descendants (of which then I wouldn’t propose a WP:MOVE but a complete change in style), or about Kinh people.
How much of the numbers in France, America, and Germany include non-Kinh Vietnamese nationals and their descendants? We don’t know, that’s when all of the current sources become unreliable, and asking who’se “Kinh or not” is not something for Wikipedia to decide, wouldn't even be favourable in real life anyhow.
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--
1.55.181.32 (
talk)
10:46, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
The genetics section (save some POV that I just removed) has gotten pretty long here, especially with those huge graphs. Perhaps it would be better to split, so it doesn't take up so much o the page at expense of recorded history, culture, etc? Genes aren't everything. -- Yalens ( talk) 01:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Quoted Text from Ballinger et al. (1992)-- Ephert ( talk) 23:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC) | ||||||||||
In an effort to integrate these Asian mtDNA studies into a coherent view of Southern Mongoloid migra- tions, we have conducted a detailed analysis of the mtDNAs from seven East Asian populations. The data provide evidence that: (1) the Vietnamese are the most diverse and, hence, the oldest population; (2) Malay- sians retain remnants of haplotypes found in PNG; (3) coastal Asians have a striking frequency cline for the 9-bp deletion; and (4) both insertion and deletion mutations in the COII/tRNALYs intergenic region have occurred more than once. |
Similarity of mongoloid types: Analysis of South- east Asian mtDNA variation indicates that all extant populations were derived from a common ancestral population which encompassed most of the variation. The mean of the intrapopulational divergence is 0.182%, while the mean interpopulational divergence corrected for intrapopulational divergence (NEI and TAJIMA 1983) is about one-sixth this value or 0.030%, with a range of 0.019% to 0.053% (Table 3). Thus, it would appear that most of the mtDNA variation is shared between the Southeast Asian populations and predated the present geographic subdivision. Of the current populations, the Vietnamese have the greatest intrapopulational genetic divergence (0.236%) sug- gesting that it is the oldest. Since Vietnam was colo- nized by a southeast China migration, this would imply a southern Chinese origin of Mongoloid people about 59,000 to 118,000 YBP (assuming that mtDNA di- vergence is 2-4% per million years, CANN, BROWN and WILSON 1984; CANN, STONEKING and WILSON 1987; NECKELMANN et al. 1987, 1989; WALLACE et al. 1987). | |||||||||
The quoted text above is in the upper-left of page 140 just before the "Materials and Methods" section which is page 2/14 of the PDF document. |
The quoted text above is the first paragraph of the "Discussion" section which is the fourth paragraph of the right column of page 142 which is page 4/14 of the PDF document. | |||||||||
Source: Ballinger, S. W.; Schurr, T. G.; Torroni, A; Gan, Y. Y.; Hodge, J. A.; Hassan, K; Chen, K. H.; Wallace, D. C. (1992). "Southeast Asian Mitochondrial DNA Analysis Reveals Genetic Continuity of Ancient Mongoloid Migrations". Genetics. 130 (1): 139–152. PMC 1204787 |
User:Yalens in their 01:10, 20 September 2017 edit removed the statement about Vietnamese being the oldest population given a certain context which was cited to Ballinger et al. (1992), and their edit summary was "rm flagrant peacock, how can one ethnic group be "older" than another?". I do not believe that referring to something being the oldest given a certain context falls under WP:PEACOCK. In the data table to the right, I have quoted the relevant text from Ballinger et al. (1992), and I have highlighted the most relevant part of the quoted text in yellow.-- Ephert ( talk) 23:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
User:Leonel Johnson in their 02:05, 20 September 2017 edit had the edit summary "the source did not even mentioning Vietnamese is the oldest race in SEA, probably someone trying to manipulating the source", but Ballinger et al. (1992) did talk about Vietnamese beding the oldest population given a certain context. In the data table to the right, I have quoted the relevant text from Ballinger et al. (1992), and I have highlighted the most relevant part of the quoted text in yellow.-- Ephert ( talk) 23:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
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The Vietnamese population in Cambodia is incorrect. Per the CIA Factbook, the population of Cambodia is 16,204,486 people of which 0.1% is Vietnamese. This is roughly 16,204 ethnic Vietnamese residents in Cambodia, not 600,000. Tranmanz ( talk) 01:16, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
The people that this paragraph talks about are the pre-Austronesian, rather than the Vietnamese. The people that migrated northwards from the Sundaland to Shandong and the present-day Korean peninsula were the pre-Austronesian. They have nothing to do with the Vietnamese. This part probably misinterprets Bhak's opinion. Gustmeister ( talk) 09:01, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
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Change "non la" to "nón lá" in the photo description box. Uhtna ( talk) 21:30, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per the discussion. ( non-admin closure) – Ammarpad ( talk) 19:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Vietnamese people → Kinh people – This article is about just one ethnic group, the Kinh people. Vietnamese as a people include many other ethnic groups. Please see List of ethnic groups in Vietnam. Also, please see how similar topics are named: Han Chinese, Khmer people, Bamar people. 67.149.246.163 ( talk) 15:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Note: This page contains material merged from the article Gin people. Please see that article's complete history here. See also Talk:Gin people. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 06:47, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
The sections that does not cite any references or sources was deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.238.247.207 ( talk) 01:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
Could someone update the number of oversea vietnamese in each country? There are more than 600,000 vietnamese in Cambodia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pringels000 ( talk • contribs) 15:46, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Sorry if you oppose me, but I do not think that Ho Chi Minh would be deserving of being put as an example of a Vietnamese person, even though genetically he was one. 211.30.138.38 13:19, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Why someone removed my image set? Can we ban Minhtung91 for vandalising the page?
Does anyone know the origin of the ethnonym "Kinh", and why does it appear with the character for "capital" when used in Chinese? User:Le Anh-Huy
Here's another "ethnography" of ethnic Vietnamese in China. There is something quite ethnocentric about this Beijing-controlled website, as Russians and Koreans are referred to by their English ethnonyms, but the Viets are just called "Jing"! http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/EthnicGroups/136919.htm Le Anh-Huy 02:20, 19 March 2006 (UTC)
Speculated Answer: Well, I heard this and I can't quite back it up, but it means the metropolitans, Kinh/Jing though means capital can also mean metropolitan. It's meaning maybe lost throughout the years, but could reflect that the modern Vietnamese ethnic group is neither the Lac or the other ethnic groups stated in the Legend of Lac Long Quan. Rather a mixed group of "metropolitans." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)
I am preapring a genetic study to answer your questions. Manything needs to be done now. My hypothesis is that Kinh people originating from southeast Asia and influenced by migration from southern China people. (Toiyeuvietnam). I inserted some new clues from genetic studies by Chinese scholars published in some famous articles (ex. American J Hum Genet, Science..). But my change in "Vietnamese people" topic is rejected due to unconstructive conclusion. This decision that is very quickly shows that the editor did not read these studies. It is not good way.
I don't know, but it is important to bear in mind that Việt (Yùe in modern Chinese, presumably Yuèt in ancient Chinese) means nothing other than "southern barbarian", i.e. non-Chinese south of the Yangzi river. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 ( talk) 20:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Kinh is a relatively late term used by the Vietnamese to distinguish themselves from the minorities in the mountains, as the Vietnamese are people originated from the capital or the metropolitan areas and have a culture that is quite different from the surrounding minorities due to Sinization. Normally, Vietnamese refer to themselves as "người Việt" (Viet people) but when they speak to the minorities in mountains they would refer to themselves as "người Kinh" (people of the metropolitan). Only when they speak to the Hoa (Chinese) minority, the Khmer minority, and the Cham minority, would they still refer to themselves "người Việt" (Viet people). Hope this helps. Sunnyrain90 ( talk) 22:29, 29 June 2009 (UTC)
It is true that "Kinh" means capital, which word is borrowed from Chinese. Kinh meaning "of the capital" is plausible but I think unlikely. It seems more likely to me that Kinh is the endonym of the people, while Nam Viet is the Chinese exonym. Nam Viet does indeed mean "southern barbarian", "barbarian" in this context specifically meaning "settled non-Han peoples south of the Yangtze River". Most of these people (except the Kinh of course) are now completely Sinified and identify as Han. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.71.129.233 ( talk) 06:20, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Large scale emigration did not occur immediately after the Vietnam War, despite the imagery of boat people fleeing on American helicopters and aircraft carriers. It was later around 1978 onwards did Chinese-Vietnamese flee in greater numbers, when their economic interests in the south were threatened by nationalisation.
Most of the Hoa are indeed discriminated by those so call pure Vietnamese; they call the Chinese ba -tau ( three boat people, funny they were boat people refugee too) even from the Viet language radio station in the West countries> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 ( talk) 20:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
This page said that there were 2 million northern Vietnamese who migrated south after 1954. The following page, however, states that there were around 1 million people migrating from the North to the South during two years after the Geneva Accords: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conference_(1954)
In fact, the number are under 1 million. I have changed the information in this page accordingly.
I don't see the purpose of having a separate article about the Gin, as if they were a different ethnic group. Hypothetically, it would be interesting to have an article about specifically about ethnic Vietnamese people in China, but we don't have anything like enough material for that yet. And anyway, "Gin" is just a different spelling of "Kinh", which is a synonym for "ethnic Vietnamese"; "Jing" is simply the Chinese pronunciation of that word. - Nat Krause( Talk!) 01:38, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
There are large population Viet-Hoa in Western countries and successfully in business too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 ( talk) 20:30, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Technically, merging Gin people with Vietnamese people would be like merging African-American with Black people. So we should do the same with that article. 1028 00:49, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
According to legend, the first Vietnamese descended from the dragon lord Lạc Long Quân and a heavenly spirit Âu Cơ. They marrhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_peopleied and had one hundred eggs, from which hatched one hundred children. Their eldest son Hùng Vương ruled as the first Vietnamese king. The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River delta and mixed with the indigenous population.
In 258 BC, An Dương Vương founded the kingdom of Âu Lạc in what is now northern Vietnam. In 208 BC, Chao Tuo (known as Triệu Đà in Vietnamese), a former Qin Dynasty general from China, allied with the leaders of the Yue peoples in modern-day Guangdong and declared himself King of Southern Yue. He defeated An Dương Vương and then combined Âu Lạc with territories in southern China and named his kingdom Nam Việt, or Southern Yue (南越). (Nam means south). Việt is cognate to yuet 越, which is the pronunciation of Yue in ancient Chinese and some modern southern Chinese dialects. The term was used for various peoples in the region south of China, including the regions of northern Vietnam.
http://www.vny2k.com/vny2k/SiniticVietnamese5.htm
I agree that we should clearly split myth and historical facts. Tridungvo 15:26, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Uhh, regardless of those elements you listed that are practiced amongst Vietnamese (betel nut chewing, lacquering of teeth), they’re not exclusive to Mon-Khmer speaking people but also practiced by Tai-Kadai (among others) people.
No matter where Vietnamese is classified language-wise, that does not necessarily prove that they’re close genetically to a specific group in that language family. Language and genetics are not the same thing - and I know now you’re gonna say that the only other possibility is that Vietnamese adopted Mon-Khmer language, but that’s not what I’m saying either! In any case, even though Vietnamese is language wise Mon-Khmer, it’s also obvious that Vietnamese shares 10 percent basic vocabulary with Tai-Kadai languages and similar grammar, not to mention pre-sinitic influenced Vietnamese also used stilt houses like Tai-Kadai people, among other examples. Vietnamese are most likely a mixture of mon-khmer and tai-kadai peoples, then you have to factor in the 1,000 year Chinese annexation/domination (in which massive immigration of Chinese is ruled out by scholars, but there is proof of some immigrations of Chinese throughout [read “The Birth of Vietnam” by Keith Taylor]). Even language and mixing aside, Vietnamese people know their history and origins and know for a fact that the cradle of Vietnamese civilization is based in North Vietnam. People are affected not just by genetics but also by environment, North Vietnam is strikingly different from many other areas in Southeast Asia in climate, with its four seasons and it actually gets cold! Making a claim for possibility of relation because of language at one point is ok, but you have to factor in a billion other factors as well.
By the way, an interesting tidbit=Japanese people - being a mix of yayoi and Jomon, also practice what is often deemed as indigenous southeast asian practices: including practice of animism and dyeing teeth black. Mojojojoinhawaii 04:05, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
I must say that although the Vietnamese resemble the southern Chinese in cultural traditions, habits, and finally in their physical typology, i find the Southern Chinese often even more southeast Asian then the Vietnamese themselves in several ways. This may be some kind of far-fetched speculation, but I suspect the Vietnamese (in least in some of their gene pools) have much more "northern" origins. Perhaps the Mongols or others had some affect centuries ago? My own family is of Vietnamese origin, and many of my relatives have a very Central Asian, Japanese, and even Turkic look, and so they look a bit different from most of their other brethren, not to mention other southeast Asians. Until several years ago, I always thought nothing of this, and thought myself quite an "average" Asian-Canadian, until my late teen years when other Asians always had no idea where I was from, not to mention non-Asians. I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides, but people always think I look Mongolian, Japanese or Turkic; and finally, recently I have met other people of Vietnamese origin who look just like myself, and not like the majority or Vietnamese around me. ie. some Vietnamese guys (esp. in my family) have much more facial or body hair than most others, yet are entirely Vietnamese).
is their any historical evidence or research of Vietnamese having Altaic or otherwise "non-native" (ie. to the south China-Indochina basin) origins in their gene pool? This might have drastically affected the actual origins of the Vietnamese people. Le Anh-Huy 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually the so call pure Vietnamese ware mostly from the south ( mixes with Khmer ( Cambodian) !
That is a reasonable speculation. Since it is noticeable that Vietnamese people do not have one "homogenous" feature.
"Actually the so call pure Vietnamese ware mostly from the south ( mixes with Khmer ( Cambodian) !" ↑
- VERY DEROGATORY DEMEANOR COMING FROM SOMEONE WHO 'TRIES' TO WRITE UNBIASEDLY BUT ADD MIXTURES OF HATE UNLINING THEIR STATEMENTS.
MUST LIKE TALKING DOWN ABOUT OTHERS, WHOM DOES NOT SPROUT FROM YOUR GENE POOL? READ THISSS UP!! NO ONE PICK WHICH FAMILY THEY COME FROM. OR IF THEY GENETICALLY SHLD HAVE CURLY HAIR OR STRAIGHT. IT'S LAME THINKING & DESTRUCTIVE vs CONSTRUCTIVE. THINK WITH YOUR GOD GIVEN BRAIN!
PARTICULARLY, WHEN NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC SAYS.. WE ALL COME FROM AFRICA IN THE END, THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE. ALL SKINS & ALL TONES, EVERY RACE, EVERY COLOR. GROW UP KIDDO! LEAVE THE WAR IN THE PAST & STEP INTO THE 21ST CENTURY!
http://newswatch.nationalgeographic.com/2011/11/03/modern-humans-wandered-out-of-africa-via-arabia/
CONTINUITY OF RACIAL HATE IS REDUNDANT BECAUSE SOMEONE DESIRES TO THREAD ON ANOTHER IN ORDER TO FEEL A SENSE OF SUPERIOR. (SUPERIORITY COMPLEX - SEE A PSYCHOLOGIST!) YOUR INTERNAL DEWELLINGS IS PRESENTED AS "INSECURE" TO A PROFESSIONAL EYE. RACE SHLDN'T ELEVATE UR MENTAL SMALL STATURE. CHARACTER SHOULD!
UR SUBLIMINALLY RACIAL PROFILING & TARGETING CAMBODIANS, AS IF THEY ARE TO BLAME FOR YOUR UNHAPPINESS! SO YOU UNDERSTAND, SOUTH VIETNAM WAS ALL KAMBOJA/CAMBODIA BECAUSE OF A MARRIAGE IN ATTEMPT TO UNITE THE PEOPLE AS ONE. ONCE A SHARED PROVENCE. SO DON'T BE SURPRISED, IF YOU CARRY CAMBODIAN GENES! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.71.109 ( talk) 02:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
TOPIC OF GENES IS GREAT, YOUR MATERNAL MITCHRONDRIAL DNA OR PATERNAL LINEAGE, WONDERFUL! KEEP TALKING!
IT'S SO DISGUSTING & DISTURBING, HOW YOU ADDRESS THE TOPIC & TARGET CAMBODIANS. APPRECIATE DIFFERENCES IN OTHER CULTURES & THEIR CONTRIBUTES. REMOVE BORDERS FROM UR BRAIN! AS MAN & WOMAN DON'T THINK ALIKE BUT COMPLIMENT ANOTHER, AS SO ANY CULTURES, CREEDS, BREEDS AND SKINS. GROW UP!
INCASE YOU WERE THINKING: I'M AN ARYO-TURCO MONGOL. HUMAN BY RACE.
wrong!!! you do not know know about China. Korean people and Hai nan people (southern island of China ) eat fish sauce too!
Quoted from Talk:Vietnamese people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
a.) DHN responding to user:leaki, on the origin of the Vietnamese people: They are Mon-Khmers who were Sinisized, not the other way around. DHN 19:49, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
b.) DHN responding to Le Anh-Huy's message of 07:14, 26 August 2006 (UTC), despite Le Anh-Huy clearly stating "I am of Vietnamese origin myself on both sides": ...You have European traits because somewhere you had a (white) European ancestor(s), which is not documented in your family history for various reasons including taboo... 13 Sep 06.
c.) DHN's "scientific" claim of genetic make-up for Vietnamese of Chinese origin: Of course there are Vietnamese who are classed as ethnic Chinese, but many of these are genetically less than 50% Chinese, and in fact predominantly Vietnamese genetically, and morphologically resembling the Vietnamese. The Chinese have a custom of accepting anyone who has a Chinese ancestor as Chinese even though the genetic make-up of the person is heavily diluted from that of his/her Chinese ancestor. 13 Sep 06.
Sirs,
Who is this DHN? I found his/her comments very disturbing. Bad English to start with (Cf. Quote a.) above). What rights to make such huge & offending statements on the world stage? They are far from accurate, to say the very least.
Yours sincerely, T.Vd./
I speculate that Vietnamese are mixture of the north (chinese) with the indigenous populations through out time, leaving much of the population looking somewhere on the spectrum of looking very east asian to looking very austronesasian. After all, there were many Chinese who moved down to Vietnam during the successive dynasties, who though were 100% Han in genetics identified with Vietnam as it was their home province, it might also make sense that chinese military men, stationed south without their women, found indigenous partners, leaving people of highly mixed sino-vietnamese stock. likewise, there are other probably those that live outside the cities, where the Hans used to congregate in ancient times, having less exposure to han genes also leaving us with those who look more "indigenous." ~ Xiaohuang (Thieu Hoang)
Instead of Eugene Trinh, why not have a picture of Pham Tuan? At least, he was the first Vietnamese cosmonaut, as well as the first Asian in space. Some Vietnamese Americans are so unwilling to recognize any progress that goes on "back home", preferring to only focus on personal achievements of Vietnamese-Americans who, are primarily doing the United States of America a favour, not Vietnam. Besides, Pham Tuan looks better, and will give the "ethnic photos" better exposure to Viets. Le Anh-Huy 05:48, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Exactly! Le Anh-Huy 22:07, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
But, there are speculations that that cosmonaut did nothing but "ride along". :D I think it's safer to use Eugene Trinh. He is Vietnamese, definitely. (Yes, us overseas Vietnamese are being arrogant, but we have the right to, don't we?) 220.239.231.118 11:46, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
i changed 'possibly related to southern chinese' to related to southern chinese. genetics study have shown that the vietnamese kinh are indeed closely related to them. we are genetically closer to them than the other peoples of southeast asia such as the thais, though we are somewhat closely related to the people of laos. the computer dictionary microsoft bookshelf 2000, also states that we are related to the southern chinese.
Possibly? Anyway, this is off-topic, but Vietnamese is not Chinese, right? People I know keep on saying that the Vietnamese people were from China (geographically originating from a part of today's China, yes, but I mean CHINA as in CHINA), which is stupid, in my opinion. 220.239.231.118 11:49, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
No. Vietnamese and Han Chinese are distinct ethnic groups. Vietnamese descended from minority ethnic groups in China, not Han Chinese. It's like Japanese vs Chinese. Academics suggest that modern Japanese people descended from Yayoi people originally from China, but yayoi were distinct from Han Chinese as well. Moreover, they mixed with Jomon people to form modern-day Japanese ethnicity. Same case with Vietnamese and Chinese.
From: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714
Quote: the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not. 116.15.11.188 ( talk) 13:19, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
What is the reason for including "Yue (state)" and "King Gou Jian of Yue" under "Also see"? Both these "Yue" refer to what is now Jiangsu and Zhejiang provinces in China and not are related to Vietnam. LDHan 11:59, 26 April 2007 (UTC)
For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{ Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 23:32, 18 May 2007 (UTC)
What's this? Ho Chi Minh got removed whereas some strange guy with American flag on one arm and another in the background is put on as an example of a Vietnamese? This is serious POV, especially when this is an article about Vietnamese in general, not Vietnamese American. I will remove it if no one can give me a satisfying explanation. Hawkie 14:10, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
First, there is no need to go into detail about Vietnamese people in specific a country, China in this case. There is no discussion of Vietnamese people in Thailand or South Korea and what they are labeled there because it is not needed. The Diaspora section covers all that is needed about Vietnamese people living abroad. Besides there are other Wikipedia articles that discuss Vietnamese people living outside of Vietnam or in a specific country (Vietnamese Canadians, Vietnamese Australians, etc). Remember this article is about the Kinh ethnic group not about Vietnamese living abroad.
I would rather said the so call really vietnemanse are from Champa kingdom!
Vietnamese spelling were invented from the French! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.137.171.98 ( talk) 21:05, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
Second, why are so many translations of Vietnamese words to their Mandarin equivalent? Remember this is a Vietnamese article not a Chinese one. Do you see Vietnamese translations of Chinese names and places in Chinese articles? The answer is no because Vietnamese translations are unnecessary in Chinese articles just like Chinese translations in Vietnamese ones.
I believe this article should be edited to omit all the Chinese references, which are unnecessary to begin with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 ( talk) 15:00, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
If nobody responses in a week I will go ahead make the edits myself —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.52.17 ( talk) 15:14, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Vietnamese may have been originally written in Chinese, but it is not really pervalent in today's time. Hardly any Vietnamese are taught to read or write in Chinese script so it is pretty much useless if they can't understand it. Actually the Vietnamese sound are closely to Camtonese. Vietnamese spelling was invented by the French not Vietnamese them self!
So is it okay to delete this passage? "In the People's Republic of China, they are among the recognized minority groups based especially in or around Guangxi Province and are known in Mandarin Chinese through their derivative name Jing/Gin (京) or "Jingzu"/"Ginzu" (京族)." As I have stated this article should concentrate about the Kinh ethnic group. There is no need to go to mention what Vietnamese are labeled outside of their country. There is no metion of what Vietnamese are called in other countries like Laos or Thailand because it is unnecessary just like this passage. It more appropriate in the "Vietnamese people in China" article.
Because today's vietnam, was until quite recently a part of the Chinese Empire, where it was known as the Province of Annam, as were the other two SE countries of Laos and Cambodia. Other territories that were once a part of the Chinese Empire include the whole of the Korean peninsular as well as Outer Mongolia and Tuva.
217.42.59.59 (
talk)
02:47, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
Other subselections this article should include is culture, food, attire, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.139.22.23 ( talk) 15:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
i am requesting the admin to remove this article from the vietnamese origin's section
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118967451/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
where in the article did it mention hakka, southern chinese, singapore chinese are classsifed with vietnamese? there's no basis and truth in it
please be more strctly before you approve ridiclous infromation like that! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 12:50, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Vietnamese have no genetic relation to Han Chinese. They are related only to the minority ethnic groups in Southern China.
Vietnamese and Han Chinese are distinct ethnic groups. Vietnamese descended from minority ethnic groups in China, not Han Chinese. It's like Japanese vs Chinese. Academics suggest that modern Japanese people descended from Yayoi people originally from China, but yayoi were distinct from Han Chinese as well. Moreover, they mixed with Jomon people to form modern-day Japanese ethnicity. Same case with Vietnamese and Chinese.
From: http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=21714
Quote: the study is more of Chinese minority groups than the larger Han Chinese majority.It seems to suggest and enforce Li Hui theory of at least one of the 3 streams of transmigratory routes taken by Chinese peoples,the stream of genetic marker M119 ( where the Viets belong ) whose path was through northern SE asia into China and they contain Bai Yue and other minorities like Dai but not Han Chinese.So it sort of confirm " the current study involved only mostly minority populations " in the article on PNAS and they " entered from Southeast Asia " Li Hui asserts that Han Chinese are M117 genetic marker and Viets & Bai Yue are M119. Viets do not share the M122 genetic marker with the Han-Chinese. M117 and M7 stemed from M122,which the Viet ethnic is not. 116.15.11.188 ( talk) 13:26, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Linerqi, please substantiate your claims with scientific findings or authoritative sources, instead of vague terms like "modernly accepted" opinions (which may be your one-sided view for all we know.) 116.15.11.188 ( talk) 13:28, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
I think a section on the genetic origin of the Vietnamese people should be added. It is modernly accepted among geneticist that the Vietnamese people have a dual genetic origin from the Chinese and the Thai, with certain Vietnamese more closely related to the Chinese and others more closely related to the Thai.
For example here: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/pdf/10.1046/j.1365-2370.1999.00184.x?cookieSet=1
I think this section is important because while geographic, linguistic and cultural characteristics can be masked and changed depending on how and where a person is raised up, nobody can hide from their genetic code as it will always pinpoint exactly who they are, and where they come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Linerqi ( talk • contribs) 05:05, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Also to add, Vietnamese people are genetically grouped with Miao, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyi and Thais, implying that they are closely related.
For example here: http://www.wufi.org.tw/taiwan/lml2e.jpg
you must be kidding me, thats a outdated DNA map from 1972, i mean 1972? are you ok? basing on ychromosome and ydna, you guys are totally different
why are you vietnamese so desperate to relate to chinese? map like these are circulated everywhere on the interent, what studies is this map based on? will the admin at least try to understand what these non-source studies are based on first before you approved it in the offical article?
please admin remove the false information without eveidence for back up
i can easily find DNA maps like that with different results [IMG] http://i46.tinypic.com/2e6hspj.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG] http://i50.tinypic.com/eqxmpz.jpg[/IMG]
i think vietnamese are pretty desperate....and have no shame...im sure you ancestor is very upset not if they know theres an offspring liek you —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 13:00, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I think I would rather not be associate in any remote way possible to the like of you. Just thinking about me and you may have one chance in six billion share one similar chromosome make me want to puke. Truly, if I share the same gene pool as you I would rather kill myself and do the world a favor. I am sure that your ancestors are ashamed of having one such delusional offspring as you. Please, don't procreate. If your children are so unfortunate as to be born by the like of you, please, don't teach them anything. I pity them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 ( talk) 08:40, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Linerqi ( talk) 05:39, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
What is this? Is there a Vietnamese term? I can find absolutely no sources about this at all: Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL. cab ( talk) 03:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
It should be called "Bani" Islam, a form of Islam that was syncretized into Malay culture...but the internationalists among the Cham and Malay Muslim community are trying to get rid of it, for a more puritan form of Islam. Le Anh-Huy ( talk) 11:10, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
it. DHN ( talk) 03:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
_____________________________________________
For more information go to these sites.
http://www.chamstudies.com/members/agnesdefeo(transgressionsdelislam).pdf
Video on Cham Bani in Vietnamese with French translations and comments.
http://bangsacham.com/Videos.html
sorry but what is DNA map based on? dont use the outdated study those are only based on blood types which is a totally outdated method , you should study the YDNA and MTDNA of both groups all southern chinese fatherline(YDNA) are closely related to northen while vientmaes are not even the vietnmase MTDA has nothing in common with southern chinese blood type can easily affect by the tempature and climate south chinese and south east asian live in similar climate which the study tend to show they are related but YDNA and MTDNA has already refulted this claim —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 12:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
Takima ( talk) 13:36, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
Why does the entry 'Viet' redirect to this article? The Vietnamese ethnicity is part of a much larger grouping of Viet peoples (just as the Turkish ethnic group is part of a much larger grouping of Turkic peoples). A disambiguation page needs to be provided to address this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.145.206 ( talk) 02:13, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Please note that the idea that 'Viet' only refers to the Vietnamese people is a misnormer (and possibly racist too). Cantonese, Hokkien and many other ethnic groups that originate in South East Asia are also Viet peoples. It must also be noted that the ancestors of ALL these peoples were NOT related to the Han people in any way.
By the way, what is this 'something else' called? Is it a derogatory term that just promotes a 'us and them' attitude? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.150.242 ( talk) 23:46, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
If 'Viet' really is used exclusively in the Vietnamese language to refer to ethnic Vietnamese, then I regret to say that I find such usage extremely offensive. As far as I am aware, 'Viet' as used in the English language refers to no only ethnic Vietnamese but also many other non-Vietnamese 'Viet' peoples (such as the Cantonese peoples). The bottomline: a disambiguation page needs to be provided to distinguish between the various meanings that 'Viet' might be construed to be. As the page stands, if one were looking for information on the various Viet peoples, they would be sent straight to this page without any opportunity to go to the correct article beforehand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.148.100 ( talk) 01:09, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
PS: It is clear that an 'us and them' attitude between the Vietnamese and other Viet peoples is well and truely alive here. It would appear that many people here do not really know much about history or are seeking to promote biased views. 122.105.148.100 ( talk) 03:49, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
The redirect in question has been converted into a disambiguation page. Hopefully, this will reduce confusion. David873 ( talk) 08:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
Cantonese people = Vietnamese?!! That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard! If you come to Asia, all Cantonese/Hakka/Hoklo people think of themselves as Han Chinese, or sub-groups of Han Chinese (what we call 籍贯). Each sub-groups has their distinct regional accents and practices, but we are all descended from Han Chinese people in the Yangtze basin.
Plese, Vietnamese people, do not make unsubstantiated claims and link yourself to us. Korea tried to steal our culture by registering it, but they failed. Please have more self-respect. Vietnamese people already have a bad reputation within Chinese communities, because some people make up lies like that. Please stop it! 220.255.37.161 ( talk) 09:21, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
First, Vietnamese are proud Vietnamese people, period. We neither want or care to associate ourselves with other, especially the Chinese people. All those attempted to do so are not, in any sense or any way, Vietnamese, that I can assure you. A thousand years of Chinese domination is enough, thank you very much. We fought with blood and bone to NOT be associated with the Chinese. Try to read history please. We can stand on our own. Stop with the delusion.
Second, we are genetically Vietnamese. Nothing more, nothing less. You people who are not even Vietnamese people have no business talking about genetic composition of the Vietnamese people. Unless you have concrete evident to the contrary (i.e. two gene map on your hand with point by point comparison between Vietnamese people and ____ people (fill in the blank)), please do yourself a favor and be quiet. Wikipedia is not a faith based institution, and your belief means nada here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.30.20.148 ( talk) 09:49, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
The third paragraph in the opening section contains several statements concerning Vietnamese genetics supported by two separate sources. The first source is hosted by the National Center for Biotechnology Information (NCBI), which is a perfectly acceptable source for this type of study. However, the user who added this information probably did not reflect the whole study, the user also changed (deliberately?) and perhaps manipulated the content a bit; in the NCBI research, it states [3]:
“ | The comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals. However, the Vietnamese population can be differentiated by the significantly higher frequency of the enzyme morph HincII-5 and by seven new markers. These results strongly support the hypothesis of a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from the Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations based on HLA markers and linguistic evidence. | ” |
However, the information on this Wikipedia article which cited this reference is written as:
“ | Genetic studies in the past decade have shown that the Vietnamese population exhibits genetic markers that are closely related and/or identical to those of Southern Chinese populations, with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai populations. | ” |
In order to reflect the complexity of human genetics, we need to approach the information in a scentific perspective, rather than making it seem like ethnic-oriented (i.e. stating Vietnamese are closer to which ethnic group rather than...).
However, the second source (a map) [4], unlike the first source which is hosted by a reputed research center that specializes on fields such as molecular biology, microbiology and biochemistry, is of unknown orgin and is hosted by the website called "wufi.org", which is a political organization titled "World United Formosans For Independence" ( WUFI). I'm afraid it automatically advertizes a politically-oriented sentiment in its contents. Evenmore so, this reference was only a graph depicting genetic clusters, it did not denote such statements as it was written on this article. So by puting forth statements simply based on personal observation of the graph is not acceptable.-- DerechoReguerraz ( talk) 06:21, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
On Page 421 of the article, the author asserts that when he/she refers to Orientals, he/she is predominantly talking about Chinese populations. The word Southern was added because the cross-referenced studies (Blanc et al ., 1983 and Johnson et al ., 1983) took samples predominantly from the Canton province. The author makes the conclusion that the genetic markers are closely related and/or identical in Table 4 of the same page. If you read his discussion, he talks about all of the related genetic markers, and then concludes that with this (in the very last sentence), that the Vietnamese population came from Chinese/Thai populations.
The article can be accessed on the same page with a subscription to the service or with access through a higher education system (Students, Faculty, Post-Doctorate Researchers of most mid to upper-tier Universities). Linerqi ( talk) 01:24, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
A proper source has also been added for the second claim. The paper clearly states the genetic cluster on page 194 (once again, you will need either a subscription or be affiliated with a high quality University/Research Center to see the paper). Linerqi ( talk) 01:23, 25 July 2008 (UTC)
Why are Cantonese and Teo Chew not listed? Many ethnic Vietnamese around the world are fluent in speaking at least one of these languages in addition to Vietnamese. David873 ( talk) 03:44, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
By the way, there ought to be a brief mention of the Hoa people as they are really ethnically Vietnamese and there are no real differences between 'native' Vietnamese and Hoa people. After all, the Cantonese people are closely related to the Vietnamese people in a genetic, ethnic and cultural sense, a closeness that can only be intensified by the very high rate of 'intermarriage' between the 'Hoa' people and 'native' Vietnamese. Please do not say that Hoa people are ethnically Chinese; this is just a political trick designed to promote hatred based on non-existent ethnic differences.
no you are not related to cantonese people at all, cantonese YDNA is closely related to northen han while MTDNA is related Zhuang instead of vietnamese vietnamese are related to khmer people
David873 (
talk)
04:02, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
"The predecessors of the Vietnamese people emigrated from present southern China to the Red River Delta and mixed with the indigenous population.{{Fact|date=August 2007}}<!--When did this happen? Need much more detail about this.-->" Badagnani ( talk) 20:18, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
____________________________________________________________________
That's the reason of this "disputation" that led me to put some words on the "earlier Vietnamese groups" now repelled to the highland.
Takima ( talk) 15:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
Vietnamese people have more chinese DNA than their own!
look at this
According to a research study done by the Hopital Saint-Louis in Paris, France: "the comparison of the Vietnamese with other East Asian populations showed a close genetic relationship of the population under investigation with other Orientals," with the exception of seven unique markers. These results, along with remnants of Thai enzyme morphs, indicate a dual ethnic origin of the Vietnamese population from Chinese and Thai-Indonesian populations [1]. According to another research by the Mackay Memorial Hospital in Taipei, Taiwan, the Vietnamese people are classified in the same genetic cluster as the Miao, Southern Han (Southern Chinese), Buyi and Thai, with a divergent family consisting of Singaporean and Thai Chinese, Minnan ( Hoklo) and Hakka. [2] ㄏㄨㄤㄉㄧ ( talk) 21:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
Chinese have "Vietnamese" DNA? Sorry, but I find this hard to swallow. References, please.
As for certain theories being "denounced" - interesting choice of word, that - it doesn't make that theory wrong. Plenty of groups may have immigrated to the Red River Delta from "China" - whether southern China (i.e. non-Han) or northern (i.e. Han or proto-Han or Han-esque) - long before the Qin or Han or whatever state reached there. I think this is the issue, not how much "Chinese" blood entered Vietnam after the Chinese conquest.
As someone mentioned, the truth often hurts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 ( talk) 10:27, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
If by saying Chinese have vietnamese DNA means that the majority or maybe even all Chinese peoples have vietnamese DNA, then it is blatantly untrue. Of course there are some Chinese people who share some of their DNA with some vietnamese people. However the reverse statement that vietnamese have Chinese DNA is actually true. That is vast number of vietnamese people have DNA that originated from people in China. Also chronologically in history, the Chinese peoples established their states a long time before there was any mention of vietnam or vietnamese. Vietnamese people are an off-shoot of the Chinese, not the other way round, and for that they should be grateful instead of the usual vietnamese feeling of jealousy and competition. Similarly it is meaningless to talk of the English people or England prior to the 4th century AD/CE, as there was no people called the English prior to that time, nor a place of that name. So to recap, vietnamese people came along a long time after the Chinese people were established in history, and the vietnamese were an off-shoot of the Chinese. 217.42.59.59 ( talk) 02:04, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
no you have nothing to do with any sub han groups, that is only based on blood types according to ydna and mtdna you are more closely related to khmer and lao people all southenr han groups are closely related to northen han i wonder why all the vietnamese are so desperate to link chinese... —Preceding unsigned comment added by TimetravelerX ( talk • contribs) 12:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)
I've added this chapter in recognition of the "first nations" of what is today Vietnam. The distinction is on dry and wet rice agriculture.Next chapter can be influences from the South with the Champa kingdom and from the North with China.
Takima ( talk) 21:29, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
It should perhaps be pointed out that the 'first nations' of what is today vietnam, and the present day vietnamese are not related genetically.
217.42.59.59 (
talk)
02:20, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
In response to these discussions, I have added the "earlier Vietnamese groups" followed by influences from the south with the Champa and from the north with China after 6 months in Vietnam, mainly on the Mekong delta ("Cuu Long") for a field work on politology and anthroplogy of the islamic Cham Bani and buddhist Khmer Krom. I've just spent 1 month around Lai Chau-Dien Bien.
Takima ( talk) 00:49, 19 October 2008 (UTC)
"Archaeological evidence of the bronze age Dong Son Culture, also known as Lac Society, suggest the ancient Vietnamese people were among the first to practice agriculture."
The Đông Sơn Culture, depending on the Wikipedia source stretching from 1,000 BC to 3079 BC until 258 BC or so, makes "the ancient Vietnamese people one of the first to practise agriculture"? I don't think so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.160.1.74 ( talk) 10:39, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
A full six images in the infobox of historical figures (83 percent of whom are male) isn't balanced. As with any ethnic group article, notable living people of various professions should also be included. Can this please be corrected? Badagnani ( talk) 06:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, these are still all historical figures. There should be at least one or two active, living people who are doing something productive at the present time. Badagnani ( talk) 09:41, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
What happened to all the females? Where has the girl in ao dai gone? Why are these all in black and white? And a drawing? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.177.53.198 ( talk) 06:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
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From 2.1 to 2.4, I have put "the earlier Vietnamese groups" and ended the full subjet with "the first Vietnamese". All these come from my own published works in French as well as the ones by Paul Mus and Bernard B. Fall with references from EFEO (École Française d'Extrême Orient) scholars.
Takima ( talk) 21:45, 15 February 2009 (UTC)
______________________________________
Vietnamese People on "youtube" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqxiIvejroA&feature=related
Takima ( talk) 15:33, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
From 2-1 to 2-4, the sources are notes from 6 to 11. Please refere yourself to the notes, showing the referential sources.
Takima ( talk) 16:49, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
http://www.erudit.org/revue/ei/1987/v18/n3/702210ar.pdf
1987 paper in French Relations Internationales" on "The colonizations of Vietnam and Vietnamese colonialism".
As in most countries, the first inhabitants were pushed by newcomers in remote bad lands for the USA and Australia or highlands for Vietnam.
In Vietnam, the first inhabitants came from the south Austrasia by the Sunda Shelf. Then from the North came the Cantonese Yue settling on the Red River delta. As time goes by they turned to be different from their cousin in Guangdong and make their own new contry different from the one they came and they name it " Nanyue" Vietnamized in Nam Viet. Further south flourished indianized Khmer Kingdom and Champa kingdom.
The next step was the "drive to the south" ( Nam Tien) not different from the germanic " Drang nach Osten", colonizing the Champa and then the khmer, vietnamizing the Mekong delta, with the help of Chinese immigrants and refugees. http://paristimes.net/fr_culture/immigr-chinoise-ntheanh.html "Immgration chinoise et la colonisation du delta du Mékong".
Takima ( talk) 22:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
The current transcription of Vietnamese , using Latin alphabet, was not the work by the French. According to most scholars, including French scholars like Pierre Huard and Maurice Durand, members of the French School of the Far East, indicate that "la romanisation du vietnamien" was an international and collective work. The work was wrongly attributed to Alexandre de Rhodes who published his "anamite-latin-portugais" dictionary in 1651. Later, Pigneau de Behaine and then Taberd continued this undertaking to achieve the current transcription of Vietnamese. T.D. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.122.34.255 ( talk) 21:33, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.
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Please update the Queue page as appropriate.
Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially
Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 00:34, 17 June 2010 (UTC).
Could someone update the number of Oversea Vietnameses in each country. There are more than 600,000 Vietnamese in Cambodia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pringels000 ( talk • contribs) 15:48, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
why "Southern Chinese or other people in South China" in infobox related people? proof? where reference say vietnam people relate to south chinese? where source? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zhan Tuo ( talk • contribs) 03:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
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I'd like to suggest—since this article is about an ethnic group rather than a nationality proper (i.e., the people of the nation-state of Vietnam), and as such does not include all the populations native to the country of Vietnam who may in this latter sense rightfully be called "Vietnamese" (nor does it include only those populations, but even populations that have always lived outside its borders...), and since apparently the name "Vietnam" itself strongly suggests an emphasis on the south Viet people only—that its title be changed to the arguably more precise Viet people, retaining all the current redirects plus of course an added redirect for those who may still search on Vietnamese people. Regarding the latter proposed new redirect, a search on "Vietnamese people" might alternatively direct to a disambiguation page referring on the one hand to the several native ethnic groups of the nation of Vietnam (perhaps linked to Vietnam#Ethnicity?), and on the other hand, to the present article, renamed Viet people, about this particular ethnic group, which even in bygone eras has transcended the borders of Vietnam. How do people feel about this? Would someone like to take on the task? I strongly suggest it, in the interest of preciseness only. (Please Note, I have no personal vested interest in the issue; I merely noticed the ambiguity of the title as it is now, and decided on that basis alone to raise this proposal.) IfYouDoIfYouDon't ( talk) 00:23, 1 July 2013 (UTC)
The Le dynasty created the Kinh ethnicity in the 15th century
Le historians like Ngô Sĩ Liên were commisioned by the dynasty to create creation myths for their ethnic group, so Ngo claimed that the Kinh were descended from Emperor Shennong
http://books.google.com/books?id=Bc30ytJmwzMC&pg=PA108#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false
18:51, 22 March 2014 (UTC)
Nguyen Emperor Minh Mang claimed that the Vietnamese had the right to call themselves Han people 漢人.
http://kyotoreview.cseas.kyoto-u.ac.jp/issue/issue4/article_353.html
Minh Mang called Vietnam "Zhongguo" 中國
04:14, 8 April 2014 (UTC)
Someone has kept changing around the infobox of notable Vietnamese people in the last few months. It is now, quite frankly, literally unrecognizable from before. Many people I do not recognize to be notable. And, there is now only one Vietnamese female here, down from 3 before! Frankly, I find that last part to be shameful.
I'm not sure what's the reason with this. It was fine the way it was before, until someone chose to delete the picture for it... I propose changing the list back to what it was here before: http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vietnamese_people&oldid=564325184
Top: Triệu Thị Trinh • Nam Phương • Trưng Sisters
Middle: Phan Bội Châu • Lê Lợi • Nguyen Dinh Chieu
Bottom: Lê Văn Duyệt • Ho Chi Minh • Ngô Bảo Châu
Or, at the very least, to expand this list. Maybe we can add back in Triệu Thị Trinh and the Trưng Sisters, and also include Hồ Xuân Hương as well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.208.179.66 ( talk) 16:49, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
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I would like an edit for the 'Vietnamese people' page. The notable people represented at the the top right of the page are all men. I request you to add a or some female notable such as Hai Ba Trung or Ba Trieu. It's a unfair mistake to let people from other countries think that Vietnamese women are not well-regarded compared to men. Thanks. Maido97 ( talk) 08:55, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Not done - It is NOT that I disagree with you, but we have no pictures of
Bà Triệu, and the picture on the
Trưng Sisters page is horizontal and very unclear. I tried adding the Trung sisters picture into the 3x3 array, but it looks silly,
you can see my test here. If you can find some suitable pictures on Wikipedia, or Wikipedia Commons, please re-suggest this, and link to the pictures. -
Arjayay (
talk)
14:53, 31 May 2014 (UTC)
Would it be possible to add pictures of notable Vietnamese people to the side, like most other pages on ethnic groups? Specifically this (from the Viet version) :
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.87.75.74 ( talk) 00:26, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
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The article cites Geno by National Geographic, but they have updated their tests.
According to the newer Geno 2.0, Vietnamese are 83% Southeast Asian:
https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/reference-populations-next-gen/
Doublestuff ( talk) 18:41, 28 December 2016 (UTC)
I would like to suggest a move for the pages Vietnamese people to Kinh people ("metropolitans"/"city-people") and for Demographics of Vietnam to go to Vietnamese people due to various factors that make the current wording and phrasing of the article problematic.
A mistake I found on the article ethnic groups in Vietnam is that the term "dan toc" means "minority" and that all non-Vietnamese people in Vietnam are somehow called "dan tocs", I looked for a source to back it up but some errors just slip through Wikipedia as the term "dan toc" actually means "ethnic group" and could mean any ethnic group.
And the term "Viet Nam" when used on official documents almost always is meant to describe the nationality of the person rather than their ethnicity (with the notable exception being the Vietnamese source below where a German national writes down their ethnic group as "Viet Nam" while the Vietnamese national uses "Kinh").
I'm not sure if anyone fact-checked all the sources but the Dutch CBS includes descendants of Vietnamese nationals, not just ethnic Kinh people so the number could also include various minorities like the Montagnards. The differentiation between various ethnic groups within Vietnam often doesn't exist with overseas communities (with the notable exception of the H'mông).
Personally I want to avoid doing any original research and tried to look for Vietnamese sources that described the majority of Vietnam as "ethnic Vietnamese" but I only found foreign newspapers like the American "Nguoi Viet".
Another good example as to why we need to move this page to Kinh people is because it incorrectly assumes that ethnic minorities in Vietnam are either "foreigners" or "non-Vietnamese people living in Vietnam" which are both untrue, this double standard isn't applied with either " Japanese people" (which is separate from Yamato people to differentiate the dominant ethnic group from Ainu people, and Ryukyuan's while still having a page about the general demographics of Japan) and " Chinese people"/" Taiwanese people" (中國人) as opposed to Han Chinese (漢人) who are the majority of "Chinese people"/"Taiwanese people".
Though an argument can be made that ethnicity is purely about self-identification as Minh Mang called Vietnam "China"/"Taiwan" (中國) in relation to Cambodian people, and referred to Vietnamese people as "Chinese people"/"Taiwanese people" (漢人), but that's besides the point as we do differentiate between a national of "China"/"Taiwan" and the Han ethnic group.
Even if we'd were to argue that although the government and most of the time the people (here) in Vietnam themselves use the term Nguoi Viet to describe them, it still isn't the same as "Vietnamese", which implies a national of the country of Vietnam which isn't a nation-state of "the Vietnamese people" but a multi-ethnic region, even the word "Vietnamese" is purely geographical as it comes from the "Chinese" language/"Taiwanese" language term "Jyut-Naam" which means the southern areas of the Jyut (a Chinese/Taiwanese term to describe non-Chinese/non-Taiwanese people from certain areas), and I have yet to find any Vietnamese language sources that when in relation to other ethnic groups call the Kinh group anything other than Kinh.
-- 42.113.199.29 ( talk) 07:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Why the title of this article is confusing.
Above I created an argument as to why this article should be moved to “Kinh people” because of the ambiguity of the term “Vietnamese people” but now let me try to phrase it better.
I’ve made this argument before but “Chinese people”/”Taiwanese people” doesn't exclusively include Han Chinese, but also various other ethnic groups such as Zhuang people, Mongolian people, Tibetan people, Taiwanese aboriginals, Muslims, and yes even Kinh-Chinese people while searching “Vietnamese people” only leads to the Kinh, further on the subject of nationality Vs. ethnicity.
In China/Taiwan there’s a difference between Chinese/Taiwanese people (Trung Quoc Nhan), Chinese/Taiwanese Nationals (Trung Quoc Quoc Dan), and Chinese/Taiwanese citizens (Trung Quoc Cong Dan), even if we’d make the argument that only Han people are “ethnic Chinese”/”ethnic Taiwanese” it would be difficult to explain if a Zhuang person living in Denmark would or wouldn't qualify as “a Chinese person”/”a Taiwanese person” since they’re not “ethnic Chinese”/”ethnic Taiwanese”.
Vietnam has something similar to the above, with the Chinese/Taiwanese all Chinese/Taiwanese people living outside of China/Taiwan are “Hoa Kieu”, all Hoa Kieu are “Trung Quoc Nhan” but none of them are “Trung Quoc Cong Dan” (as they’re not registered in a Ho Khau), and only some of them are “Trung Quoc Quoc Dan”. Meanwhile the figures for “overseas Vietnamese” (Viet Kieu) also include minorities such as Montagnards, H'mông, Tay, Muong, Etc. for example I'm quite familiar with the Dutch Statistics Bureau and they always base statistics on national origin, not ethnic origin. For this reason North-Koreans, and South-Koreans living in the Netherlands are counted separately, while people from Belgium (who could be either Flemish, Walloon, or Rhine-Prussian) are all counted as “Belgians”.
With this in mind the statistics of the number of “Kinh people” in Vietnam becomes quite accurate, but immediately falls apart with the overseas numbers (Viet Kieu), let’s not forget that an overseas Cham is still a Vietnamese national, and a Cham living in Vietnam is still a Vietnamese citizen with “Quoc Tich Viet Nam”.
Wikipedia does a great job with keeping the Han-Chinese people article separate from “Chinese people”/”Taiwanese people”, and conversely over 90% of all Chinese/Taiwanese nationals ‘’are’’ Han, while less than 80% of all Vietnamese nationals are Kinh.
The WP:COMMONNAME article falls apart when all official statistics bureaus from Viet Nam itself name the ethnic group “Kinh”, and the article become gravely unreliable when it starts putting non-Kinh in the article.
Above here on the talk page there’s a discussion on including Eugene Trinh, the first Non-Hispanic Vietnamese-American in space in the infobox because he’s a notable and recogniseable Vietnamese person, and completely ignoring the first Oriental in space (who was also Vietnamese) because of some political issue, but the argument to put Trinh here falls really apart when Trinh is actually a Hoa (“Chinese”/”Taiwanese” from Viet Nam), and not a Kinh. Either this article is consistently about Vietnamese nationals and their descendants (of which then I wouldn’t propose a WP:MOVE but a complete change in style), or about Kinh people.
How much of the numbers in France, America, and Germany include non-Kinh Vietnamese nationals and their descendants? We don’t know, that’s when all of the current sources become unreliable, and asking who’se “Kinh or not” is not something for Wikipedia to decide, wouldn't even be favourable in real life anyhow.
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--
1.55.181.32 (
talk)
10:46, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
The genetics section (save some POV that I just removed) has gotten pretty long here, especially with those huge graphs. Perhaps it would be better to split, so it doesn't take up so much o the page at expense of recorded history, culture, etc? Genes aren't everything. -- Yalens ( talk) 01:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
Quoted Text from Ballinger et al. (1992)-- Ephert ( talk) 23:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC) | ||||||||||
In an effort to integrate these Asian mtDNA studies into a coherent view of Southern Mongoloid migra- tions, we have conducted a detailed analysis of the mtDNAs from seven East Asian populations. The data provide evidence that: (1) the Vietnamese are the most diverse and, hence, the oldest population; (2) Malay- sians retain remnants of haplotypes found in PNG; (3) coastal Asians have a striking frequency cline for the 9-bp deletion; and (4) both insertion and deletion mutations in the COII/tRNALYs intergenic region have occurred more than once. |
Similarity of mongoloid types: Analysis of South- east Asian mtDNA variation indicates that all extant populations were derived from a common ancestral population which encompassed most of the variation. The mean of the intrapopulational divergence is 0.182%, while the mean interpopulational divergence corrected for intrapopulational divergence (NEI and TAJIMA 1983) is about one-sixth this value or 0.030%, with a range of 0.019% to 0.053% (Table 3). Thus, it would appear that most of the mtDNA variation is shared between the Southeast Asian populations and predated the present geographic subdivision. Of the current populations, the Vietnamese have the greatest intrapopulational genetic divergence (0.236%) sug- gesting that it is the oldest. Since Vietnam was colo- nized by a southeast China migration, this would imply a southern Chinese origin of Mongoloid people about 59,000 to 118,000 YBP (assuming that mtDNA di- vergence is 2-4% per million years, CANN, BROWN and WILSON 1984; CANN, STONEKING and WILSON 1987; NECKELMANN et al. 1987, 1989; WALLACE et al. 1987). | |||||||||
The quoted text above is in the upper-left of page 140 just before the "Materials and Methods" section which is page 2/14 of the PDF document. |
The quoted text above is the first paragraph of the "Discussion" section which is the fourth paragraph of the right column of page 142 which is page 4/14 of the PDF document. | |||||||||
Source: Ballinger, S. W.; Schurr, T. G.; Torroni, A; Gan, Y. Y.; Hodge, J. A.; Hassan, K; Chen, K. H.; Wallace, D. C. (1992). "Southeast Asian Mitochondrial DNA Analysis Reveals Genetic Continuity of Ancient Mongoloid Migrations". Genetics. 130 (1): 139–152. PMC 1204787 |
User:Yalens in their 01:10, 20 September 2017 edit removed the statement about Vietnamese being the oldest population given a certain context which was cited to Ballinger et al. (1992), and their edit summary was "rm flagrant peacock, how can one ethnic group be "older" than another?". I do not believe that referring to something being the oldest given a certain context falls under WP:PEACOCK. In the data table to the right, I have quoted the relevant text from Ballinger et al. (1992), and I have highlighted the most relevant part of the quoted text in yellow.-- Ephert ( talk) 23:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
User:Leonel Johnson in their 02:05, 20 September 2017 edit had the edit summary "the source did not even mentioning Vietnamese is the oldest race in SEA, probably someone trying to manipulating the source", but Ballinger et al. (1992) did talk about Vietnamese beding the oldest population given a certain context. In the data table to the right, I have quoted the relevant text from Ballinger et al. (1992), and I have highlighted the most relevant part of the quoted text in yellow.-- Ephert ( talk) 23:00, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
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The Vietnamese population in Cambodia is incorrect. Per the CIA Factbook, the population of Cambodia is 16,204,486 people of which 0.1% is Vietnamese. This is roughly 16,204 ethnic Vietnamese residents in Cambodia, not 600,000. Tranmanz ( talk) 01:16, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
The people that this paragraph talks about are the pre-Austronesian, rather than the Vietnamese. The people that migrated northwards from the Sundaland to Shandong and the present-day Korean peninsula were the pre-Austronesian. They have nothing to do with the Vietnamese. This part probably misinterprets Bhak's opinion. Gustmeister ( talk) 09:01, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
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Change "non la" to "nón lá" in the photo description box. Uhtna ( talk) 21:30, 30 August 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved per the discussion. ( non-admin closure) – Ammarpad ( talk) 19:21, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
Vietnamese people → Kinh people – This article is about just one ethnic group, the Kinh people. Vietnamese as a people include many other ethnic groups. Please see List of ethnic groups in Vietnam. Also, please see how similar topics are named: Han Chinese, Khmer people, Bamar people. 67.149.246.163 ( talk) 15:53, 30 July 2019 (UTC)