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I really would like to know how come these numbers are inaccurrate?
First, the Tet Offensive has more troops than listed in the Vietnam war article. Second, during different parts of the war, there were different amounts of Vietconc/North Vietnamese troops throughout the war. Tet had 595,000 NVA forces, while 80,000 Vietcongs were there, according to History Channel. Allied had 1,000,000 troops. Should the Vietnam War have the total numbers of troops, based on what I saw from all of the other wikipedia articles about the Vietnam war? Look at all the Vietnam battle articles then tell if I was right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ALEXF971 ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
We need a source for the figures presented for the NVA it seems very high (its a massive junp). Was there ever 2 million communist forces in the field at one time? This [ [1]] seems to indicate that at its highest (in 1971, the newly inserted ppoint of greatest steength) it was around 230,000 Slatersteven ( talk) 15:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Year | Month | NVA | VC | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
1964 | Dec | 10,430 | 170,240 | 180,670 |
1965 | Dec | 34,090 | 191,576 | 225,666 |
1966 | Oct | 60,620 | 231,538 | 292,158 |
1967 | Feb | 57,860 | 228,958 | 286,818 |
1968 | Jan | 98,600 | 188,865 | 287,465 |
1969 | Feb | 80,281 | 178,904 | 259,185 |
1970 | May | 87,245 | 150,320 | 237,565 |
1971 | Jan | 86,070 | 138,758 | 224,828 |
1972 | Jan | 85,381 | 124,348 | 209,729 |
Ancilery to this. How are the figures worked out, The USA seems to represent the high point whilst austraila looks very high (they has one brigade). This whole Info box section needs re-working. So a simple question do we list total number of cambatants or highest commitment? Slatersteven ( talk) 18:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC).
Before discusing casulaties can we decide what the Number of combatants refers to. Total comited over the whole conflict or highest comitment at one time? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I don’t know if this will help, but it is common knowledge that during 1972 the NVA had thirteen regular combat divisions of which twelve were unleashed into South Vietnam during March of 1972. Additionally, the following source provides information pertaining to U.S. support and combat troops in Vietnam: In so far as U.S. troop levels were concerned, by the end of 1967 the number of U.S. military personnel in Vietnam had climbed to 486,000, rising to 536,000 during . . . 1968. During April of 1969 the number of American troops in Vietnam reached its zenith of 543,300. In regards Army combat and support roles in Vietnam, one author (with supporting sources) has written: “If one considers that South Vietnam was slightly smaller than the State of Florida, and if one realizes that only 22% of all the Army soldiers in Vietnam were in combat roles, with the remaining 78% providing support, then this meant that during 1965 less than 40,000 soldiers were actually out in the jungle trying to kill the enemy. Some contend that only 15% (vice 22%) of the soldiers serving in Vietnam were actually in combat arms (10% serving in the infantry, and 5% serving in the artillery and armor). However this 15% figure does not take into account medics, helicopter pilots, and combat engineers, which many contend should also be added to the mix, so I have elected to stay with 22% as being a realistic, albeit conservative, percentage of those soldiers in Vietnam at any given time that were considered to have served in combat roles. I have heard of people using higher ratios than 4 to 1 in referring to support troops, some have used ratios as high as 9 to 1, but I assume they must be focusing on the 10% infantry figure, whereas I consider the 4 to 1 ratio as being more realistic, based on the 22% figure of soldiers serving in combat roles. In addition to the three combat branches (Infantry, Armor, and Artillery), the Army has thirteen other branches (Air Defense Artillery, Adjutant General Corps (admin), Aviation, Chemical Corps, Corps of Engineers, Finance Corps, Medical Service Corp (of which its medics served in the field with the infantry), Military Intelligence, Military Police Corps, Ordnance, Quartermaster Corps (supply), Signal Corps, and Transportation) as well as some additional specialties, such as chaplains and lawyers (Judge Advocate General’s Corps). If only 22% of the Army troops who served in Vietnam were in combat roles, then, for every soldier out in the jungle seeking to engage the enemy, there were four . . . [soldiers] in the rear providing support by driving trucks or working as clerks or supply guys, and those guys might pull some guard duty around the division base camp perimeter, but the fact of the matter is, that of all the Army soldiers who actually went to Vietnam, only about one in five was out in the field hunting the enemy, and if you take away the medics, helicopter pilots, and engineers from this mix, then only about one in seven soldiers in Vietnam was actually in the combat arms.” Source: A. T. Lawrence, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173, pp. 102-103. [footnoted sources: Statement of Vietnam Veterans of America (cites the 15% figure), submitted to the Subcommittee on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and the Institute of Medicine on 6 July 2006, and Melvin R. Laird, “Iraq: Learning the Lessons of Vietnam.” (cites 10% infantry figure) Article, Vol 84, Number 6, (NY: Foreign Affairs, November/December 2005)] Troop levels were cited on pages 160 and 204. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 19:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Omitted were the OH-13, OH-23,OH-6,OH-58 that were used as scout and spotter aircraft. Also the first Army large troop transports were CH-21, H-34, CH-37, and the Marines had CH-46. There were a few others but these were major players. You can see the list of aircraft lost at the VN Helicopter Pilot's Assn website. http://vhpa.org/heliloss.pdf I can testify that the first four OH's were there as I flew them. We lost 842 OH-6's and a total of 1152 Observation Helicopters. Please add at least the first four. R. Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasconc ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I'd like to add mention of the Italian-led peace efforts of 1965-68:
Wehere could these information be added in the page? Thanks, -- Dans ( talk) 02:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Should we add Cuba under communist forces as according to the Cuban section in the article there was a small Cuban presense? Spongie555 ( talk) 05:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Saying the N viet's causalities being the "highest estimate" is like saying the Holocaust deniers' estimates are the highest. Even those who made the estimates would probably faint seeing their estimates being labels as highest. 173.183.79.81 ( talk) 01:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Presently, the first two sentences of the last paragraph of the section titled, Effect on the United States, read as follows:
“More than 3 million Americans served in the Vietnam War. By war's end, 58,220 soldiers were killed,[2] more than 150,000 were wounded, and at least 21,000 were permanently disabled.[257].”
Due to information in Archive 16 and on the present discussion page, I would like to take a stab at re-writing these two sentences (which now becomes three sentences), with the hope that the Wiki editors will accept them and include them in the article. They would read as follows:
“A total of 3,403,100 personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, which includes flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters). From this total, 2,644,000 U.S. personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam. [Footnoted Source: VFW Magazine April 1997]. By war's end, 58,220 soldiers were killed,[2] and 303,644 U.S. military personnel were wounded (153,303 who required hospitalization, and 150,341 who did not require hospitalization but rather received treatment at field aid stations. [Footnoted Source: CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 -- here is the website for the CRS report: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf].” 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 07:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Oops! One must say 58,220 military personnel died (vice 58,220 soldiers were killed) -- soldiers just refers to the Army, but of course deaths occurred in all of the Services, and 10,786 deaths were non-hostile, meaning they died from other causes besides combat, which included illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, etc., so it is more accurate to use the word "died" instead of the word "killed." 72.197.86.130 ( talk) 21:24, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Here it says that North Vietnam was supposed to be occupied by nationalist Chinese forces in 1945- and then nothing about what happened to said forces. Did they ever show up? If not, why?
I note that Archive 16 contains corrections, and authoritative sources, to U.S. casualties and losses (58,220 dead vice 58,159, and 303,644 wounded vice 303,635 [153,303 wounded who required hospitalization, and another 150,341 wounded from shrapnel or small arms fire who received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units]). Will this information in Archive 16 find its way into the article? 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 19:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I am still hoping Wiki editors will make the correction to the Infobox regarding U.S. casualties and losses. It should be corrected to read 58,220 dead vice 58,159, and 303,644 wounded vice 303,635. The Department of Veterans Affairs fact sheet, dated May 2010, confirms the number of American deaths in Vietnam at 58,220 (10,786 non-hostile deaths and 47,434 hostile deaths). The Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division, Defense Manpower Data Center, had provided me these numbers back in December of 2007 when I was working on my book, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173. Additionally, the CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 states a total of 303,644 U.S. military personnel were wounded in Vietnam. There were 153,303 who required hospitalization, and another 150,341 (wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire who received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units). Additional detail is provided in Archive 16. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 20:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
In regards improving the edit, you might wish to change Annotation 2 to read:
The figure of 58,220 U.S. deaths comes from the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, as well as from a Department of Veterans fact sheet dated May 2010, and the book Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173. The figure of 303,644 U.S. wounded comes from the CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010.
The reason I cite the book Crucible Vietnam is because the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division, Defense Manpower Data Center, provided the author a detailed breakdown of the 58,220 figure back in 2007.
Notes 5, 6, 7, and 8 would need to be rearranged. You only need two notes: 5 (for deaths) and 6 (for wounded) to read as follows:
Note 5 (for U.S. deaths) should be corrected to read:
The Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, as well as a Department of Veterans fact sheet dated May 2010, and A. T. Lawrence, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173.
Note 6 (for U.S. wounded) should be corrected to read:
CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010. 72.197.86.130 ( talk) 20:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Additionally, somewhere in the article, it is important to make mention of the fact that of 303,644 U.S. military personnel wounded in Vietnam, 153,303 required hospitalization, while another 150,341 (wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire) received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units. Otherwise, there will be confusion, because oftentimes historians just pick up the 153,303 wounded who required hospitalization, and they often neglect the other 150,341 wounded who were treated at field aid stations and sent back to their units. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 21:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I see you made the correction for U.S. deaths 58,220, but you did not correct for U.S. wounded, which should read 303,644 and not 303,635. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 21:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
In Annotations 2, I don’t see why, now knowing the accurate numbers of 58,220 deaths and 303,644 wounded, it is necessary to include the last sentence that reads as follows: “Some other sources give different figures (e.g. the 2005/2006 documentary Heart of Darkness: The Vietnam War Chronicles 1945–1975 cited elsewhere in this article gives a figure of 58,159 U.S. deaths [5], The 2007 book Vietnam Sons: For Some, the War Never Ended gives a figure of 58,226. [9]).” This simply leads to unnecessary confusion. The info box still cites 303,635 instead of 303,644 wounded. You mention that you removed the citation of "A. T. Lawrence, author of Crucible Vietnam as not verifiable, however if you dial up Crucible Vietnam Appendix A on Google, you will see the reference to 58,220 American deaths, which is cited in three other places in the book. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 05:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC) If you go online to Google ebooks and call up the book, Crucible Vietnam, and go to the search option and input “58,220,” it will come up with all four entries in the book concerning total U.S. deaths in Vietnam. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 08:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
The accurate figures of 58,220 U.S. Military deaths in Vietnam and 303,644 wounded are set forth in the most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 (here is the website for the CRS report: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf). These casualty figures are substantiated by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and a sourced book in which the author received casualty figures directly from the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, who is responsible for assembling these figures, together these sources create an indisputable affirmation of the accuracy of these casualty figures. It seems important to get this right in the Wiki article. For too long there have been inaccuracies concerning these casualty figures among historians; here is an opportunity for Wiki to get it right and to serve as a reputable source for those seeking accurate U.S. casualty figures. I still don't see any reason, at this point, to include sources providing other numbers, when those cited above are the most recent and incontestable. 72.197.86.130 ( talk) 05:07, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Hoping the Wiki editors will make the correction and change the number of wounded in the info box from 303,635 to 303,644 (the references do not need to be changed). The most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 verifies this number, though you have to go into the Report and put the two wounded categories together (153,303 who required hospitalization, and another 150,341 who were wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire who were not hospitalized but rather received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units). 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 23:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Annotations #5 states: “On 6 May 1965 the first American combat troops the, Third Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division, are sent to Vietnam to protect the Da Nang airport." This is not correct.
Marines first arrived in Vietnam on March 8, 1965. I wrote the following in my book, Crucible Vietnam, on page 27: “on the 8th of March 1965, 3,500 Marines of the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, the lead element of the 3rd Marine Division, stormed ashore near Da Nang, about 100 miles to the south of the DMZ, to become the first U.S. ground combat troops to set foot upon Vietnamese soil (the 1st Marine Division would be dispatched to Vietnam one year later).” Source: A. T. Lawrence, author of Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173, p. 27. In the first paragraph of the section titled, Escalation and ground war, the issue is handled correctly (though it could be expanded a bit), however there is no footnote. And when you ping on the Annotation #5 it takes the reader to the section titled, Exit of the Americans: 1973–1975, whereas it should be addressing the section titled, Escalation and ground war, and the arrival in Vietnam of the Third Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 20:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing that out, I should have looked for other supporting sources. It’s just that I feel that the accuracy of these details, as well as correct casualty figures, are so important for us Vietnam Vets and for the historical record, which will be here when we are gone. Please excuse me. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 04:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Annotations #5 should be corrected to read “9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, Third Marine Division” vice “Third Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division.” 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 01:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Here are three Marine Corps websites that support the usage of 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade vice Third Marine Regiment, as only one of the battalions, 1/3, in the Expeditionary Brigade was from the Third Marine Regiment. The Marine Corps consistently cites the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the Marine unit that arrived in Vietnam on 8 March 1965.
www website tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Chronologies/Campaign/Vietnam_War_1962-1975.htm, states as follows: “8 March 1965 - The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB), commanded by Brigadier General Frederick J. Karch, landed at Da Nang, Vietnam. The brigade consisted of two Marine battalions, one arriving by air and the other over the beach.”
www website tecom.usmc.mil/HD/This_Month_History.htm, states as follows: “8 March 1965: The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade landed at DaNang, Republic of Vietnam as the first U.S. ground combat troops to be committed to that conflict. The 3,500 men arrived both across the beach with Battalion Landing Team 3/9, and at DaNang Airfield with Battalion Landing Team 1/3.”
The www website leatherneck.com, the Marine Corps Community for Marine Veterans states as follows: “March 8, 1965 - The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) commanded by BGen Frederick J. Karch landed at Da Nang, Vietnam, consisting of two Marine battalions, one arriving by air and over the beach.” 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 00:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
"'Flying under radar control with a B-66 Destroyer, Air Force F-105 Thunderchief pilots bomb a military target through low clouds over the southern panhandle of North Viet Nam. June 14, 1966.'Italiano: Volando sotto il controllo radar di un Douglas EB-66 Destroyer, alcuni Republic F-105D Thunderchief bombardano un bersaglio militare nel Nord Vietnam attraverso nuvole basse in una missione pathfinder (nella stagione dei monsoni non c'era modo di avere visibilità dei bersagli, gli EB-66 guidavano, grazie al loro radar, i bombardieri fino al bersaglio, dove questi sganciavano alla cieca in seguito alla segnalazione dell'aereo guida). 14 Giugno 1966, foto scattata dal tenente colonnello Cecil J. Poss, 20th TRS USAF, da un McDonnell RF-101C Voodoo."
"Flying under the radar control of a Douglas EB-66 Destroyer, Republic F-105D Thunderchief some bomb a military target through low clouds in northern Vietnam in a pathfinder mission (in the monsoon season there was no way to have visibility of the targets, the EB-66 were leading, thanks to their radar, the bombers to the target, where they dropped blindly following the recommendation of the plane guide). June 14, 1966, photo taken by Lieutenant Colonel Cecil J. Poss, USAF 20th TRS, a McDonnell RF-101C Voodoo."
I am the author of the book Crucible Vietnam. I did write a book about that war in which I had fought. I have simply attempted to make some corrections pertaining to casualties, for example the number of wounded in the info box should be changed from 303,635 to 303,644 based on the most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010. Additionally, a change should be made to the section titled, Effect on the United States: 8th paragraph, first sentence, currently states, “More than 3 million Americans served in Vietnam.” This statement is not correct. VFW Magazine (April 1997), which I consider to be a reliable source, states that a total of 3,403,100 personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, which includes flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters). From this total, 2,644,000 U.S. personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam. I brought these issues up during August of 2010, and yet the Wiki editors have still not made the correction. Also during December 2007, when I was writing my book, the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, provided me the yearly breakdown of the 58,220 Americans who died in Vietnam by category (killed in action; died of wounds; missing in action/declared dead; captured/declared dead; illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, and homicides). I don’t know of any other source that breaks these figures down by category and year. It was simply the Director’s Excel spreadsheet that he was using as a working file to compute annual composite figures, so in this instance I only have the Director’s spreadsheet to verify some of these casualty figures. However I have come up with three Marine Corps websites that support the usage of 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade vice Third Marine Regiment as the Marine unit that arrived in Vietnam on 8 March 1965, and I would hope the Wiki editors might make that change. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 07:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
We state who was defeated in other wars, to not state that USA was defeated in this war is clearly a POV violation. ScienceApe ( talk) 21:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
The lead photo of the Huey helicopter at a landing zone might use some clarification--that's Major Bruce Crandall flying at the famous battle of Ia Drang (Mel Gibson made a movie of the battle called "We Were Soldiers"). Major Crandall received the Medal of Honor, the Distinguished Service Cross, four Distinguished Flying Crosses and 23 Air Medals. That's a great photo to lead off the article with. 66.122.184.111 ( talk) 07:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
So now I notice the lead picture was changed. So what does this mean? That the Vietnam War Wiki article is an anti-American site? As such, it has no credibility. 66.122.184.111 ( talk) 01:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I opine that this image, currently positioned as the lead image in the article, is inappropriate as a lead image for this article. That image, a photo apparently taken during the 1965 Battle of la Drang would be better placed in the Lyndon B. Johnson expands the war, 1963–1969 section, perhaps replacing this image which, as is mentioned here above, may have copyright problems. An image more reflective of the article as a whole would be better as a lead image for the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 09:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Kauffner.Just because the US government lets us use images does not mean that an article has to be full of them. It is clear that this article is just American propaganda in pictures as I have already stated it is just Americans bombing,killing rounding up Vietnamese.There should be more pictures from the other side to make this article more balanced.As for your symbol of Vietnam bit I do not agree with it at all and just because there are loads of results on google means nothing as it it is just a fact that the Americans have pushed their version of events, well the rest of the world does not really buy that and because this is supposed to be a neutral world wide site I feel the picture should be removed and replaced with something else.I suggest the NVA entering Saigon Presidential Palace thru the gates in a tank..that would at least be one NVA image that portrays their victory. Owain the 1st ( talk) 13:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Color beats black and white. I don't care much for montages. In this case, one element is gruesome and two others are just blah. So I suggest using this as the lead image: Kauffner ( talk) 09:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I can see the effect on the United States section.Is there a section for the effect on Vietnam? Pretty sure they were more effected by that war than the Americans. Owain the 1st ( talk) 01:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
All opinions welcome. Thank you. walk victor falk talk 18:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Is specifically allowed to be used on Wikipedia by permission of The Associated Press. SpeakFree (talk) 23:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
"The licenses Wikipedia uses grant free access to our content in the same sense that free software is licensed freely. Wikipedia content can be copied, modified, and redistributed if and only if the copied version is made available on the same terms to others and acknowledgment of the authors of the Wikipedia article used is included (a link back to the article is generally thought to satisfy the attribution requirement; see below for more details). Copied Wikipedia content will therefore remain free under appropriate license and can continue to be used by anyone subject to certain restrictions, most of which aim to ensure that freedom. This principle is known as copyleft in contrast to typical copyright licenses."
The CN tag that’s been placed after the veterans against the war, is that ofr the idea that veterans joined veterans against the war or for the idea that Mai lai led to an increase in the anti war movement? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
From the first sentence the article is wrong. Stating that the Vietnam War was a "Cold War era military conflict" implies that Vietnam was a "cold" war. It was not. It was a "hot war". The Cold War is a different conflict altogether, involving the US and USSR strategically using nuclear bombers and missiles. The Vietnam War was primarily battlefield tactics and weapons. It did not start on Nov. 1, 1955. It began on March 8, 1965, 10 years later, when the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade landed at Da Nang. It ended on Dec. 29, 1972 after Linebacker I and II had brought the defeated North Vietnamese to their knees and forced them to the negotiating table where they were made to sign the Paris Peace Accords on Jan. 27, 1973, the US stating that it would withdraw the few remaining US military personnel within 60 days, thus formally ending the war on March 28, 1973. Two years after the US had left, the North Vietnamese, in total non-compliance with the Paris Peace Accords, defeated the South Vietnamese on April 30, 1975. We all know these dates, they're not in dispute. However, anti-American Wiki editors are attempting to use such easily detectable brainwashing stratagems such as the false premise, the diversionary tactic, the syllogism, the straw man fallacy, etc., to construe things differently to suit their own personal political agenda. The POV of the article seems to be skewed to be pro-Communist. This whole matter needs to be looked at by Wiki editors from an unbiased point of view and re-evaluated. 66.122.184.111 ( talk) 03:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
It seems very odd to give a start date that is several years before major fighting began. Many sources give 1959 as the start date since the first large unit military action was on 26 September 1959. The was a lot of guerilla activity in 1958-1959, so a slightly earlier date can be justified. The 1955 date has to do with eligibility for placement on the Vietnam War Memorial, not with military activity in Vietnam. Kauffner ( talk) 06:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
1956 1 1957 1 1959 2 1960 5 1961 16 1962 53 1963 122 1964 216 1965 1,928 1966 6,350 1967 11,363 1968 16,899 1969 11,780 1970 6,173 1971 2,414 1972 759 1973 68 1974 1 1975 62 1987 1 1990 1 2004 1 2005 2 2006 2 Total 58,220
IP67 did some excellent work--perhaps a graph of the rise and fall in American deaths could be emplaced in the article to visually give the reader a rendering of the rise and fall of the war. I also looked up the qualifications for the Vietnam Service Medal and it goes from July 3, 1965 to March 28, 1973. So the year 1965 does seem to be an incipient one for the Vietnam War. As a side note, I should mention that tomorrow, April 12, marks the beginning of the 150th anniversary of the American Civil War and they know exactly when it started--they're going to mark the occasion at Ft. Sumter by pointing a single beam of light skyward and then at exactly 4:30 AM the beam of light splits in two. As for me, I went to UC Berkeley in 1966 before I joined the Vietnam War. I don't think that qualifies me as a poorly educated, brainwashed, right-wing moron although I do appreciate the interest in my education. 66.122.182.154 ( talk) 17:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
1959-1961 14 1962 30 1963 71 1964 146 1965 1,313 1966 4,432 1967 8,454 1968 13,005 1969 8,239 1970 3,659 1971 1,206 1972 327 1973 20 1975 18 Total 40,934 Again, this info was provided to me by the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, during December 2007, but I realize that it is inappropriate to cite statistics from my own book Crucible Vietnam. However the Director provided me with his Excel working spreadsheet which provided category breakouts by year, and I know of no other source that provides a breakdown of hostile and non-hostile categories by year. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 18:22, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Additionally, somewhere in the article, it is important to make mention of the fact that of 303,644 U.S. military personnel wounded in Vietnam, 153,303 required hospitalization, while another 150,341 (wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire) received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units. Otherwise, there will be confusion, because oftentimes historians just pick up the 153,303 wounded who required hospitalization, and they often neglect the other 150,341 wounded who were treated at field aid stations and sent back to their units. These figures concerning the wounded are also confirmed in the most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 18:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I feel that the official U.S. Government number of 58,220 American deaths in the Vietnam War should not be reduced to 58,213. The people at the Defense Manpower Data Center are extremely conscientious and I believe they have added to the figure after 1975 by considering those who "Died of Wounds Received in Action" even if they died sometime after the U.S. military personnel came home. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 19:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Should a formal notation be made that the only American woman to die in combat in Vietnam, 1st Lt. Sharon Ann Lane, an Army nurse, died on June 8, 1969, during a 122 mm rocket attack? 63.198.18.247 ( talk) 04:01, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
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: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link).Okay, so, should the graph above on US casualities be included in the article? I think so, it's one of those "everything explained at a glance" visual graphics. It quite succinctly delineates America's involvement in the Southeast Asian imbroglio. But as noted, the graph should be amended to reflect that no US deaths happened in 1958 and 2 US deaths happened in 1959. It's a great graph, I'm surprised no one thought of it before. 71.148.52.82 ( talk) 21:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
1959-1961 14 1962 30 1963 71 1964 146 1965 1,313 1966 4,432 1967 8,454 1968 13,005 1969 8,239 1970 3,659 1971 1,206 1972 327 1973 20 1975 18 Total 40,934 While pointing out that Americans suffered a total of 47,434 hostile deaths in the Vietnam War comprised of four hostile death categories: killed in action (40,934); died of wounds (5,299); missing in action/declared dead (1,085); and captured/declared dead (116), while an additional 10,786 deaths (18.5%) were non-hostile, meaning they died from other causes besides combat, which included illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, and even homicides. It is these two categories (hostile and non-hostile) that comprise the total of the 58,220 U.S. military who died in the Vietnam War. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 20:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I wanted to take this opportunity to thank Hohum, IP66, Orange Mike, and Wtmitchell for prompting me to get in touch with my publisher. Appendix C (pgs 223 and 224) will now incorporate totals for hostile and non-hostile, and thereby include a yearly breakdown of the 58,220 Americans that died in the Vietnam War. My publisher, McFarland & Company apprises me that they expect to issue reprints of my book, Crucible Vietnam, Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant, as early as June. I suppose at that point, in order to apply the statistics to a graph (showing deaths by year), it will probably be necessary to obtain permission from my publisher, but that should not be a problem as they are very nice people. A. T. Lawrence 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 21:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)
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I really would like to know how come these numbers are inaccurrate?
First, the Tet Offensive has more troops than listed in the Vietnam war article. Second, during different parts of the war, there were different amounts of Vietconc/North Vietnamese troops throughout the war. Tet had 595,000 NVA forces, while 80,000 Vietcongs were there, according to History Channel. Allied had 1,000,000 troops. Should the Vietnam War have the total numbers of troops, based on what I saw from all of the other wikipedia articles about the Vietnam war? Look at all the Vietnam battle articles then tell if I was right. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ALEXF971 ( talk • contribs) 03:27, 21 December 2010 (UTC)
We need a source for the figures presented for the NVA it seems very high (its a massive junp). Was there ever 2 million communist forces in the field at one time? This [ [1]] seems to indicate that at its highest (in 1971, the newly inserted ppoint of greatest steength) it was around 230,000 Slatersteven ( talk) 15:39, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
Year | Month | NVA | VC | Total |
---|---|---|---|---|
1964 | Dec | 10,430 | 170,240 | 180,670 |
1965 | Dec | 34,090 | 191,576 | 225,666 |
1966 | Oct | 60,620 | 231,538 | 292,158 |
1967 | Feb | 57,860 | 228,958 | 286,818 |
1968 | Jan | 98,600 | 188,865 | 287,465 |
1969 | Feb | 80,281 | 178,904 | 259,185 |
1970 | May | 87,245 | 150,320 | 237,565 |
1971 | Jan | 86,070 | 138,758 | 224,828 |
1972 | Jan | 85,381 | 124,348 | 209,729 |
Ancilery to this. How are the figures worked out, The USA seems to represent the high point whilst austraila looks very high (they has one brigade). This whole Info box section needs re-working. So a simple question do we list total number of cambatants or highest commitment? Slatersteven ( talk) 18:19, 5 December 2010 (UTC).
Before discusing casulaties can we decide what the Number of combatants refers to. Total comited over the whole conflict or highest comitment at one time? Slatersteven ( talk) 11:23, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
I don’t know if this will help, but it is common knowledge that during 1972 the NVA had thirteen regular combat divisions of which twelve were unleashed into South Vietnam during March of 1972. Additionally, the following source provides information pertaining to U.S. support and combat troops in Vietnam: In so far as U.S. troop levels were concerned, by the end of 1967 the number of U.S. military personnel in Vietnam had climbed to 486,000, rising to 536,000 during . . . 1968. During April of 1969 the number of American troops in Vietnam reached its zenith of 543,300. In regards Army combat and support roles in Vietnam, one author (with supporting sources) has written: “If one considers that South Vietnam was slightly smaller than the State of Florida, and if one realizes that only 22% of all the Army soldiers in Vietnam were in combat roles, with the remaining 78% providing support, then this meant that during 1965 less than 40,000 soldiers were actually out in the jungle trying to kill the enemy. Some contend that only 15% (vice 22%) of the soldiers serving in Vietnam were actually in combat arms (10% serving in the infantry, and 5% serving in the artillery and armor). However this 15% figure does not take into account medics, helicopter pilots, and combat engineers, which many contend should also be added to the mix, so I have elected to stay with 22% as being a realistic, albeit conservative, percentage of those soldiers in Vietnam at any given time that were considered to have served in combat roles. I have heard of people using higher ratios than 4 to 1 in referring to support troops, some have used ratios as high as 9 to 1, but I assume they must be focusing on the 10% infantry figure, whereas I consider the 4 to 1 ratio as being more realistic, based on the 22% figure of soldiers serving in combat roles. In addition to the three combat branches (Infantry, Armor, and Artillery), the Army has thirteen other branches (Air Defense Artillery, Adjutant General Corps (admin), Aviation, Chemical Corps, Corps of Engineers, Finance Corps, Medical Service Corp (of which its medics served in the field with the infantry), Military Intelligence, Military Police Corps, Ordnance, Quartermaster Corps (supply), Signal Corps, and Transportation) as well as some additional specialties, such as chaplains and lawyers (Judge Advocate General’s Corps). If only 22% of the Army troops who served in Vietnam were in combat roles, then, for every soldier out in the jungle seeking to engage the enemy, there were four . . . [soldiers] in the rear providing support by driving trucks or working as clerks or supply guys, and those guys might pull some guard duty around the division base camp perimeter, but the fact of the matter is, that of all the Army soldiers who actually went to Vietnam, only about one in five was out in the field hunting the enemy, and if you take away the medics, helicopter pilots, and engineers from this mix, then only about one in seven soldiers in Vietnam was actually in the combat arms.” Source: A. T. Lawrence, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173, pp. 102-103. [footnoted sources: Statement of Vietnam Veterans of America (cites the 15% figure), submitted to the Subcommittee on Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) and the Institute of Medicine on 6 July 2006, and Melvin R. Laird, “Iraq: Learning the Lessons of Vietnam.” (cites 10% infantry figure) Article, Vol 84, Number 6, (NY: Foreign Affairs, November/December 2005)] Troop levels were cited on pages 160 and 204. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 19:07, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
Omitted were the OH-13, OH-23,OH-6,OH-58 that were used as scout and spotter aircraft. Also the first Army large troop transports were CH-21, H-34, CH-37, and the Marines had CH-46. There were a few others but these were major players. You can see the list of aircraft lost at the VN Helicopter Pilot's Assn website. http://vhpa.org/heliloss.pdf I can testify that the first four OH's were there as I flew them. We lost 842 OH-6's and a total of 1152 Observation Helicopters. Please add at least the first four. R. Smith — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rasconc ( talk • contribs) 16:36, 14 January 2011 (UTC)
Hi, I'd like to add mention of the Italian-led peace efforts of 1965-68:
Wehere could these information be added in the page? Thanks, -- Dans ( talk) 02:10, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
Should we add Cuba under communist forces as according to the Cuban section in the article there was a small Cuban presense? Spongie555 ( talk) 05:33, 26 January 2011 (UTC)
Saying the N viet's causalities being the "highest estimate" is like saying the Holocaust deniers' estimates are the highest. Even those who made the estimates would probably faint seeing their estimates being labels as highest. 173.183.79.81 ( talk) 01:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Presently, the first two sentences of the last paragraph of the section titled, Effect on the United States, read as follows:
“More than 3 million Americans served in the Vietnam War. By war's end, 58,220 soldiers were killed,[2] more than 150,000 were wounded, and at least 21,000 were permanently disabled.[257].”
Due to information in Archive 16 and on the present discussion page, I would like to take a stab at re-writing these two sentences (which now becomes three sentences), with the hope that the Wiki editors will accept them and include them in the article. They would read as follows:
“A total of 3,403,100 personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, which includes flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters). From this total, 2,644,000 U.S. personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam. [Footnoted Source: VFW Magazine April 1997]. By war's end, 58,220 soldiers were killed,[2] and 303,644 U.S. military personnel were wounded (153,303 who required hospitalization, and 150,341 who did not require hospitalization but rather received treatment at field aid stations. [Footnoted Source: CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 -- here is the website for the CRS report: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf].” 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 07:05, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Oops! One must say 58,220 military personnel died (vice 58,220 soldiers were killed) -- soldiers just refers to the Army, but of course deaths occurred in all of the Services, and 10,786 deaths were non-hostile, meaning they died from other causes besides combat, which included illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, etc., so it is more accurate to use the word "died" instead of the word "killed." 72.197.86.130 ( talk) 21:24, 26 February 2011 (UTC)
Here it says that North Vietnam was supposed to be occupied by nationalist Chinese forces in 1945- and then nothing about what happened to said forces. Did they ever show up? If not, why?
I note that Archive 16 contains corrections, and authoritative sources, to U.S. casualties and losses (58,220 dead vice 58,159, and 303,644 wounded vice 303,635 [153,303 wounded who required hospitalization, and another 150,341 wounded from shrapnel or small arms fire who received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units]). Will this information in Archive 16 find its way into the article? 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 19:32, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I am still hoping Wiki editors will make the correction to the Infobox regarding U.S. casualties and losses. It should be corrected to read 58,220 dead vice 58,159, and 303,644 wounded vice 303,635. The Department of Veterans Affairs fact sheet, dated May 2010, confirms the number of American deaths in Vietnam at 58,220 (10,786 non-hostile deaths and 47,434 hostile deaths). The Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division, Defense Manpower Data Center, had provided me these numbers back in December of 2007 when I was working on my book, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173. Additionally, the CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 states a total of 303,644 U.S. military personnel were wounded in Vietnam. There were 153,303 who required hospitalization, and another 150,341 (wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire who received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units). Additional detail is provided in Archive 16. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 20:32, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
In regards improving the edit, you might wish to change Annotation 2 to read:
The figure of 58,220 U.S. deaths comes from the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, as well as from a Department of Veterans fact sheet dated May 2010, and the book Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173. The figure of 303,644 U.S. wounded comes from the CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010.
The reason I cite the book Crucible Vietnam is because the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division, Defense Manpower Data Center, provided the author a detailed breakdown of the 58,220 figure back in 2007.
Notes 5, 6, 7, and 8 would need to be rearranged. You only need two notes: 5 (for deaths) and 6 (for wounded) to read as follows:
Note 5 (for U.S. deaths) should be corrected to read:
The Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, as well as a Department of Veterans fact sheet dated May 2010, and A. T. Lawrence, Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173.
Note 6 (for U.S. wounded) should be corrected to read:
CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010. 72.197.86.130 ( talk) 20:28, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Additionally, somewhere in the article, it is important to make mention of the fact that of 303,644 U.S. military personnel wounded in Vietnam, 153,303 required hospitalization, while another 150,341 (wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire) received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units. Otherwise, there will be confusion, because oftentimes historians just pick up the 153,303 wounded who required hospitalization, and they often neglect the other 150,341 wounded who were treated at field aid stations and sent back to their units. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 21:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I see you made the correction for U.S. deaths 58,220, but you did not correct for U.S. wounded, which should read 303,644 and not 303,635. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 21:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
In Annotations 2, I don’t see why, now knowing the accurate numbers of 58,220 deaths and 303,644 wounded, it is necessary to include the last sentence that reads as follows: “Some other sources give different figures (e.g. the 2005/2006 documentary Heart of Darkness: The Vietnam War Chronicles 1945–1975 cited elsewhere in this article gives a figure of 58,159 U.S. deaths [5], The 2007 book Vietnam Sons: For Some, the War Never Ended gives a figure of 58,226. [9]).” This simply leads to unnecessary confusion. The info box still cites 303,635 instead of 303,644 wounded. You mention that you removed the citation of "A. T. Lawrence, author of Crucible Vietnam as not verifiable, however if you dial up Crucible Vietnam Appendix A on Google, you will see the reference to 58,220 American deaths, which is cited in three other places in the book. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 05:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC) If you go online to Google ebooks and call up the book, Crucible Vietnam, and go to the search option and input “58,220,” it will come up with all four entries in the book concerning total U.S. deaths in Vietnam. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 08:38, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
The accurate figures of 58,220 U.S. Military deaths in Vietnam and 303,644 wounded are set forth in the most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 (here is the website for the CRS report: http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/natsec/RL32492.pdf). These casualty figures are substantiated by the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, and a sourced book in which the author received casualty figures directly from the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, who is responsible for assembling these figures, together these sources create an indisputable affirmation of the accuracy of these casualty figures. It seems important to get this right in the Wiki article. For too long there have been inaccuracies concerning these casualty figures among historians; here is an opportunity for Wiki to get it right and to serve as a reputable source for those seeking accurate U.S. casualty figures. I still don't see any reason, at this point, to include sources providing other numbers, when those cited above are the most recent and incontestable. 72.197.86.130 ( talk) 05:07, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
Hoping the Wiki editors will make the correction and change the number of wounded in the info box from 303,635 to 303,644 (the references do not need to be changed). The most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010 verifies this number, though you have to go into the Report and put the two wounded categories together (153,303 who required hospitalization, and another 150,341 who were wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire who were not hospitalized but rather received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units). 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 23:56, 15 March 2011 (UTC)
Annotations #5 states: “On 6 May 1965 the first American combat troops the, Third Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division, are sent to Vietnam to protect the Da Nang airport." This is not correct.
Marines first arrived in Vietnam on March 8, 1965. I wrote the following in my book, Crucible Vietnam, on page 27: “on the 8th of March 1965, 3,500 Marines of the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, the lead element of the 3rd Marine Division, stormed ashore near Da Nang, about 100 miles to the south of the DMZ, to become the first U.S. ground combat troops to set foot upon Vietnamese soil (the 1st Marine Division would be dispatched to Vietnam one year later).” Source: A. T. Lawrence, author of Crucible Vietnam: Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant (2009 ed.). McFarland. ISBN 0786445173, p. 27. In the first paragraph of the section titled, Escalation and ground war, the issue is handled correctly (though it could be expanded a bit), however there is no footnote. And when you ping on the Annotation #5 it takes the reader to the section titled, Exit of the Americans: 1973–1975, whereas it should be addressing the section titled, Escalation and ground war, and the arrival in Vietnam of the Third Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 20:53, 19 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for pointing that out, I should have looked for other supporting sources. It’s just that I feel that the accuracy of these details, as well as correct casualty figures, are so important for us Vietnam Vets and for the historical record, which will be here when we are gone. Please excuse me. 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 04:36, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
Annotations #5 should be corrected to read “9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade, Third Marine Division” vice “Third Marine Regiment, Third Marine Division.” 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 01:32, 21 March 2011 (UTC)
Here are three Marine Corps websites that support the usage of 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade vice Third Marine Regiment, as only one of the battalions, 1/3, in the Expeditionary Brigade was from the Third Marine Regiment. The Marine Corps consistently cites the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade as the Marine unit that arrived in Vietnam on 8 March 1965.
www website tecom.usmc.mil/HD/Chronologies/Campaign/Vietnam_War_1962-1975.htm, states as follows: “8 March 1965 - The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB), commanded by Brigadier General Frederick J. Karch, landed at Da Nang, Vietnam. The brigade consisted of two Marine battalions, one arriving by air and the other over the beach.”
www website tecom.usmc.mil/HD/This_Month_History.htm, states as follows: “8 March 1965: The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade landed at DaNang, Republic of Vietnam as the first U.S. ground combat troops to be committed to that conflict. The 3,500 men arrived both across the beach with Battalion Landing Team 3/9, and at DaNang Airfield with Battalion Landing Team 1/3.”
The www website leatherneck.com, the Marine Corps Community for Marine Veterans states as follows: “March 8, 1965 - The 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade (MEB) commanded by BGen Frederick J. Karch landed at Da Nang, Vietnam, consisting of two Marine battalions, one arriving by air and over the beach.” 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 00:01, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
"'Flying under radar control with a B-66 Destroyer, Air Force F-105 Thunderchief pilots bomb a military target through low clouds over the southern panhandle of North Viet Nam. June 14, 1966.'Italiano: Volando sotto il controllo radar di un Douglas EB-66 Destroyer, alcuni Republic F-105D Thunderchief bombardano un bersaglio militare nel Nord Vietnam attraverso nuvole basse in una missione pathfinder (nella stagione dei monsoni non c'era modo di avere visibilità dei bersagli, gli EB-66 guidavano, grazie al loro radar, i bombardieri fino al bersaglio, dove questi sganciavano alla cieca in seguito alla segnalazione dell'aereo guida). 14 Giugno 1966, foto scattata dal tenente colonnello Cecil J. Poss, 20th TRS USAF, da un McDonnell RF-101C Voodoo."
"Flying under the radar control of a Douglas EB-66 Destroyer, Republic F-105D Thunderchief some bomb a military target through low clouds in northern Vietnam in a pathfinder mission (in the monsoon season there was no way to have visibility of the targets, the EB-66 were leading, thanks to their radar, the bombers to the target, where they dropped blindly following the recommendation of the plane guide). June 14, 1966, photo taken by Lieutenant Colonel Cecil J. Poss, USAF 20th TRS, a McDonnell RF-101C Voodoo."
I am the author of the book Crucible Vietnam. I did write a book about that war in which I had fought. I have simply attempted to make some corrections pertaining to casualties, for example the number of wounded in the info box should be changed from 303,635 to 303,644 based on the most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010. Additionally, a change should be made to the section titled, Effect on the United States: 8th paragraph, first sentence, currently states, “More than 3 million Americans served in Vietnam.” This statement is not correct. VFW Magazine (April 1997), which I consider to be a reliable source, states that a total of 3,403,100 personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, which includes flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters). From this total, 2,644,000 U.S. personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam. I brought these issues up during August of 2010, and yet the Wiki editors have still not made the correction. Also during December 2007, when I was writing my book, the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, provided me the yearly breakdown of the 58,220 Americans who died in Vietnam by category (killed in action; died of wounds; missing in action/declared dead; captured/declared dead; illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, and homicides). I don’t know of any other source that breaks these figures down by category and year. It was simply the Director’s Excel spreadsheet that he was using as a working file to compute annual composite figures, so in this instance I only have the Director’s spreadsheet to verify some of these casualty figures. However I have come up with three Marine Corps websites that support the usage of 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade vice Third Marine Regiment as the Marine unit that arrived in Vietnam on 8 March 1965, and I would hope the Wiki editors might make that change. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 07:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
We state who was defeated in other wars, to not state that USA was defeated in this war is clearly a POV violation. ScienceApe ( talk) 21:07, 11 January 2011 (UTC)
The lead photo of the Huey helicopter at a landing zone might use some clarification--that's Major Bruce Crandall flying at the famous battle of Ia Drang (Mel Gibson made a movie of the battle called "We Were Soldiers"). Major Crandall received the Medal of Honor, the Distinguished Service Cross, four Distinguished Flying Crosses and 23 Air Medals. That's a great photo to lead off the article with. 66.122.184.111 ( talk) 07:57, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
So now I notice the lead picture was changed. So what does this mean? That the Vietnam War Wiki article is an anti-American site? As such, it has no credibility. 66.122.184.111 ( talk) 01:52, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
I opine that this image, currently positioned as the lead image in the article, is inappropriate as a lead image for this article. That image, a photo apparently taken during the 1965 Battle of la Drang would be better placed in the Lyndon B. Johnson expands the war, 1963–1969 section, perhaps replacing this image which, as is mentioned here above, may have copyright problems. An image more reflective of the article as a whole would be better as a lead image for the article. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 09:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Kauffner.Just because the US government lets us use images does not mean that an article has to be full of them. It is clear that this article is just American propaganda in pictures as I have already stated it is just Americans bombing,killing rounding up Vietnamese.There should be more pictures from the other side to make this article more balanced.As for your symbol of Vietnam bit I do not agree with it at all and just because there are loads of results on google means nothing as it it is just a fact that the Americans have pushed their version of events, well the rest of the world does not really buy that and because this is supposed to be a neutral world wide site I feel the picture should be removed and replaced with something else.I suggest the NVA entering Saigon Presidential Palace thru the gates in a tank..that would at least be one NVA image that portrays their victory. Owain the 1st ( talk) 13:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
Color beats black and white. I don't care much for montages. In this case, one element is gruesome and two others are just blah. So I suggest using this as the lead image: Kauffner ( talk) 09:47, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I can see the effect on the United States section.Is there a section for the effect on Vietnam? Pretty sure they were more effected by that war than the Americans. Owain the 1st ( talk) 01:05, 9 April 2011 (UTC)
All opinions welcome. Thank you. walk victor falk talk 18:38, 14 April 2011 (UTC)
Is specifically allowed to be used on Wikipedia by permission of The Associated Press. SpeakFree (talk) 23:18, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
"The licenses Wikipedia uses grant free access to our content in the same sense that free software is licensed freely. Wikipedia content can be copied, modified, and redistributed if and only if the copied version is made available on the same terms to others and acknowledgment of the authors of the Wikipedia article used is included (a link back to the article is generally thought to satisfy the attribution requirement; see below for more details). Copied Wikipedia content will therefore remain free under appropriate license and can continue to be used by anyone subject to certain restrictions, most of which aim to ensure that freedom. This principle is known as copyleft in contrast to typical copyright licenses."
The CN tag that’s been placed after the veterans against the war, is that ofr the idea that veterans joined veterans against the war or for the idea that Mai lai led to an increase in the anti war movement? Slatersteven ( talk) 12:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
From the first sentence the article is wrong. Stating that the Vietnam War was a "Cold War era military conflict" implies that Vietnam was a "cold" war. It was not. It was a "hot war". The Cold War is a different conflict altogether, involving the US and USSR strategically using nuclear bombers and missiles. The Vietnam War was primarily battlefield tactics and weapons. It did not start on Nov. 1, 1955. It began on March 8, 1965, 10 years later, when the 9th Marine Expeditionary Brigade landed at Da Nang. It ended on Dec. 29, 1972 after Linebacker I and II had brought the defeated North Vietnamese to their knees and forced them to the negotiating table where they were made to sign the Paris Peace Accords on Jan. 27, 1973, the US stating that it would withdraw the few remaining US military personnel within 60 days, thus formally ending the war on March 28, 1973. Two years after the US had left, the North Vietnamese, in total non-compliance with the Paris Peace Accords, defeated the South Vietnamese on April 30, 1975. We all know these dates, they're not in dispute. However, anti-American Wiki editors are attempting to use such easily detectable brainwashing stratagems such as the false premise, the diversionary tactic, the syllogism, the straw man fallacy, etc., to construe things differently to suit their own personal political agenda. The POV of the article seems to be skewed to be pro-Communist. This whole matter needs to be looked at by Wiki editors from an unbiased point of view and re-evaluated. 66.122.184.111 ( talk) 03:10, 10 April 2011 (UTC)
It seems very odd to give a start date that is several years before major fighting began. Many sources give 1959 as the start date since the first large unit military action was on 26 September 1959. The was a lot of guerilla activity in 1958-1959, so a slightly earlier date can be justified. The 1955 date has to do with eligibility for placement on the Vietnam War Memorial, not with military activity in Vietnam. Kauffner ( talk) 06:08, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
1956 1 1957 1 1959 2 1960 5 1961 16 1962 53 1963 122 1964 216 1965 1,928 1966 6,350 1967 11,363 1968 16,899 1969 11,780 1970 6,173 1971 2,414 1972 759 1973 68 1974 1 1975 62 1987 1 1990 1 2004 1 2005 2 2006 2 Total 58,220
IP67 did some excellent work--perhaps a graph of the rise and fall in American deaths could be emplaced in the article to visually give the reader a rendering of the rise and fall of the war. I also looked up the qualifications for the Vietnam Service Medal and it goes from July 3, 1965 to March 28, 1973. So the year 1965 does seem to be an incipient one for the Vietnam War. As a side note, I should mention that tomorrow, April 12, marks the beginning of the 150th anniversary of the American Civil War and they know exactly when it started--they're going to mark the occasion at Ft. Sumter by pointing a single beam of light skyward and then at exactly 4:30 AM the beam of light splits in two. As for me, I went to UC Berkeley in 1966 before I joined the Vietnam War. I don't think that qualifies me as a poorly educated, brainwashed, right-wing moron although I do appreciate the interest in my education. 66.122.182.154 ( talk) 17:32, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
1959-1961 14 1962 30 1963 71 1964 146 1965 1,313 1966 4,432 1967 8,454 1968 13,005 1969 8,239 1970 3,659 1971 1,206 1972 327 1973 20 1975 18 Total 40,934 Again, this info was provided to me by the Director of the Department of Defense Statistical Information Analysis Division (SIAD), Defense Manpower Data Center, during December 2007, but I realize that it is inappropriate to cite statistics from my own book Crucible Vietnam. However the Director provided me with his Excel working spreadsheet which provided category breakouts by year, and I know of no other source that provides a breakdown of hostile and non-hostile categories by year. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 18:22, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Additionally, somewhere in the article, it is important to make mention of the fact that of 303,644 U.S. military personnel wounded in Vietnam, 153,303 required hospitalization, while another 150,341 (wounded from shrapnel or from small arms fire) received treatment at field aid stations, and were then sent back to their units. Otherwise, there will be confusion, because oftentimes historians just pick up the 153,303 wounded who required hospitalization, and they often neglect the other 150,341 wounded who were treated at field aid stations and sent back to their units. These figures concerning the wounded are also confirmed in the most recent CRS (Congressional Research Service) Report for Congress, American War and Military Operations Casualties: Lists and Statistics, dated February 26, 2010. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 18:46, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
I feel that the official U.S. Government number of 58,220 American deaths in the Vietnam War should not be reduced to 58,213. The people at the Defense Manpower Data Center are extremely conscientious and I believe they have added to the figure after 1975 by considering those who "Died of Wounds Received in Action" even if they died sometime after the U.S. military personnel came home. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 19:14, 11 April 2011 (UTC)
Should a formal notation be made that the only American woman to die in combat in Vietnam, 1st Lt. Sharon Ann Lane, an Army nurse, died on June 8, 1969, during a 122 mm rocket attack? 63.198.18.247 ( talk) 04:01, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
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link).Okay, so, should the graph above on US casualities be included in the article? I think so, it's one of those "everything explained at a glance" visual graphics. It quite succinctly delineates America's involvement in the Southeast Asian imbroglio. But as noted, the graph should be amended to reflect that no US deaths happened in 1958 and 2 US deaths happened in 1959. It's a great graph, I'm surprised no one thought of it before. 71.148.52.82 ( talk) 21:49, 17 April 2011 (UTC)
1959-1961 14 1962 30 1963 71 1964 146 1965 1,313 1966 4,432 1967 8,454 1968 13,005 1969 8,239 1970 3,659 1971 1,206 1972 327 1973 20 1975 18 Total 40,934 While pointing out that Americans suffered a total of 47,434 hostile deaths in the Vietnam War comprised of four hostile death categories: killed in action (40,934); died of wounds (5,299); missing in action/declared dead (1,085); and captured/declared dead (116), while an additional 10,786 deaths (18.5%) were non-hostile, meaning they died from other causes besides combat, which included illness, accidents, missing/presumed dead, and even homicides. It is these two categories (hostile and non-hostile) that comprise the total of the 58,220 U.S. military who died in the Vietnam War. 67.188.237.74 ( talk) 20:12, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
I wanted to take this opportunity to thank Hohum, IP66, Orange Mike, and Wtmitchell for prompting me to get in touch with my publisher. Appendix C (pgs 223 and 224) will now incorporate totals for hostile and non-hostile, and thereby include a yearly breakdown of the 58,220 Americans that died in the Vietnam War. My publisher, McFarland & Company apprises me that they expect to issue reprints of my book, Crucible Vietnam, Memoir of an Infantry Lieutenant, as early as June. I suppose at that point, in order to apply the statistics to a graph (showing deaths by year), it will probably be necessary to obtain permission from my publisher, but that should not be a problem as they are very nice people. A. T. Lawrence 72.197.57.247 ( talk) 21:59, 28 April 2011 (UTC)