The harrowing and catastrophic events that plagued the American soldiers during the Vietnam War truly are unimaginable. Not only did the soldiers endure physical pain while crossing enemy lines in Vietnam, but they were also faced with psychological obstacles as well. Three movies that strongly portray an American soldier’s physical and psychological deficits while in Vietnam include Full Metal Jacket, Apocalypse Now, and The Deer Hunter. Each movie portrays harrowing and unforgettable scenes of gore, which invokes sympathy within the viewer as the viewer witnesses the Americans human condition slowly deteriorate. Full Metal Jacket is a movie directed by Stanley Kubrick, which is a deromanticization of the Vietnam War. This highly political and second wave film was originally based on the 1979 novel The Short-Timers. The Short-Timers, written by Gustav Hasford, is based on the experience of Hasford while serving in Vietnam (Full Metal Jacket). Full Metal Jacket portrays many brutal scenes that portray each of the soldier’s loss of humanity and each of the soldier’s desire to kill and stay alive. Stanley Kubrick’s film is a prime example of the psychologically effects the brutal war tactics of the combatants of the Vietnam War played on the American soldiers. Sergeant Hartman takes it upon himself to buck up a group of timid boys and turn them into merciless soldiers ready for battle. Psychologically and physically, Hartman tears away at the young men preparing them for the worst and most unexpected of events that will take place in Vietnam. Initially, the movie takes place within the training camp as the Marines prepare for war, in the second half the soldiers battle to survive in Vietnam. Although the soldiers are ready for battle, they each face a loss of humanity and are confronted with the desire of revenge. Each of the soldiers is in a way dehumanized and forced to fill the roles of unborn killers. One particular scene, which is quite memorable from Kubrick’s Full Metal Jacket, is the scene in which one of the characters known as Private Joker is confronted with the task of killing a pre-teen sniper. Private Joker is forced to give up and ignore any sense of compassion and sincerity, and must do what is best for his country and fellow comrades. The scene is a battle between an unadulterated protagonist and a callous antagonist; however, Private Joker is strictly doing what is best for his country and for his survival. This scene encompasses the Joker’s loss of humanity and shows the tactics and skills he had learned from Sergeant Hartman; a loss of humanity and vigor for violence. This unforgettable scene of gore shows how the solider will do anything for himself and his comrade to survive and make it out of war alive. Their immorality on the battlefield helps them to survive, and defeat as many Vietnamese as possible. Francis Ford Coppola is the director and producer of the first wave Vietnam movie Apocalypse Now. Apocalypse Now is an extremely unique film representing the Vietnam War. Coppola’s film became infamous because of its extensive production documented in Hearts of Darkness: A filmmaker’s Apocalypse. Hearts of Darkness depicts the troubles the crew went through while filming the movie, including weather conditions and actor’s health (Hearts of Darkness). Coppola does a unique job of portraying how a soldier deteriorates mentally and physically throughout the war with his use of Martin Sheen’s narrative. Sheen’s character, Captain Benjamin L. Willard, does a magnificent job of expressing his deep and darkest nightmares throughout. The audience is able to follow Willard’s journey, discover his most fearful nightmares, and experience his adventures through his narration. The viewer listens to his psychological degradation and witnesses his physical dilapidation. Although Apocalypse Now entails numerous battle scenes that portray a soldier’s loss of humanization, one specific scene portrays Captain Willard’s callousness. While riding down the river, the group of soldiers spots a boat hosting Vietnamese civilians. Although Willard protests against stopping, the crew insists that the civilians may be smuggling supplies. Bullets break out when one of the Vietnamese civilians reaches for something unknown to the American soldiers. Willard refuses to save the one badly hurt surviving civilian, and ends up shooting her mercilessly. The killing of the young civilian depicts Willard as a callous killer, which the Vietnam War has turned him into. Ernest Giglio’s book Here’s Looking At You describes the incentive of the soldiers within the war as those who understood that, “war could not be fought by conventional means, nor could it be won by civilized methods” (pg 206). His main goal is to survive, and do what is best for himself. Willard is psychologically degraded and has obtained a bleak outlook on life. The soldiers were worn down and after killing the young girl Willard’s thoughts are, “It was the way we had over here of living with ourselves. We’d cut ‘em in half with a machine gun and give ‘em a bandaid” (Dirks). Humanity was for those who didn’t believe in survival. Michael Cimino’s star filled film The Deer Hunter portrays a group of young steelworker’s adventures in the Vietnam War. Cimino’s film is loosely inspired by Three Comrades, a German novel written in 1937 regarding a trio of World War I veterans. The Deer Hunter, a first wave film, coveys and goes into the deep understanding of the mental consequences Vietnam had on such young American soldiers. The movie’s title accounts for the metaphor of ‘deer hunting’- both from the perspective of the hunter and from the perspective of the game target. Cimino’s extremely political and emotional film portrays three young men and their struggle to survive in Vietnam. Each of the men endures unimaginable torture by the Vietnamese combatants, and is forced to survive by means of forgetting humanity and embracing a killer’s attitude. The battle scenes represented in the film strongly depict the physical torment but also reveals the unimaginable psychological damage a soldier faces. One of the most memorable scenes of The Deer Hunter is when the American soldiers are forced into a game of Russian roulette for the Vietnamese guards’ entertainment. Before playing in the game, the prisoners are forced to stay in an underwater trap with rats until called for the next game. While waiting, one of the soldiers, Steven, breaks down. He can hear the gun shot up above him, and the psychological effect plays deep into his conscious. The fear and anxiety of what is to come of him takes over; these were tactics of the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese also have an underwater cell with rats trapping the victim with bamboo sticks covering their escape. The game itself forces the prisoner to question his life, whether or not the next bullet will kill him or not, it portrays the callous absurdity of war. Finally, two American soldiers overcome the guards with their own ideas of loading the gun with enough bullets to kill the guards with guns. The two men are forced to overcome their psychological anxieties and rely on their instincts as prisoners of war. The soldiers were psychologically degraded and in the time of war, lost their sense of humanity and focused on survival. These three films superbly delineate the psychological and physical effects the American soldiers endured while fighting in Vietnam. Each of these artists have monumental themes within their Vietnam War films, the dehumanization of the soldiers conveys more than just the portrayal of the physical and psychological degradation of the soldiers in Vietnam. These young men put their lives in extreme danger for their country, although many believed the war was unnecessary and unsupported, the soldiers were doing their duty to America. Physically, emotionally, psychologically they were tortured, beat down, and tormented. Upon arriving back in the U.S, they received no support, and were left with nothing but war wounds. Ernest Giglio touches on this aspect of the war in his book “Here’s Looking At You” in which he states “Vietnam veterans returned to America in silence, either ignored or scorned by their country. There were no heroes in this war” (pg 203). The underlying theme and messages within these movies surrounding Vietnam is the fact that the American soldiers fought an unsupported war. The Vietnam War lead to the degradation of the American society, nationalism was non-existent. “Hollywood focused on the American presence rather than on the Vietnamese people who endured and suffered through the war,” states Ernest Giglio on the film industry’s portrayal of the Vietnam War (pg 210). The American soldiers returned to an ungrateful nation when instead the nation should have paid homage to their efforts and struggles to survive in war. Physical and psychological degradation ruined many of the soldier’s lives, and it occurred because of the brutality of war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nsands ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.2.82 ( talk) 22:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
US foreign policy was always going to be defeated. You can look back as far as the 3rd Crusade led by King Richard the Lionheart when he failed to take back the city of Jerusalem. His armies fought the arabs in the holy land only to find that that the jewish population fled to Asia, most notably the north of Vietnam where they mixed in with the locals of the area. Centuries later the french who had colonies in vietnam fought the vietminh who was led by Ho Chi Minh a descendent of Jewish knight Balian of Immula who incidentally was part of the second crusade. Ho Chi Minh or Ho Chi as he like to be called did not want the french in vietnam and led a crusade of his own to remove the French only to find that the United States wanted to keep the north and south a seperate country and under asian jewish law this was not possible which is evident in the Acre treaty that was negotiated between King Richard and Yasser Arrafat a palastinien celebrity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenroygenius101 ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
No sorry this cant be removed as this has been certified by JESUS! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenroygenius101 ( talk • contribs) 10:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Is this true? For example Noam Chomsky's view is that the US scored a victory by destroying South Vietnamese nationalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Noam_Chomsky#Opposition_to_the_Vietnam_War
Twotdot24334 ( talk) 21:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
A cease fire was negotiated and South Vietnam was still in existance with the terms of the treaty, so I'd say that the U.S. Foreign Policy suceeded —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunnsworth ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
It also diverted massive US resources, and it could be argued far more (especially in terms of manpower) then the Soviet Union. Indeed the US was strategically massively overstretched by Vietnam, in a way the Soviets were not. Moreover the conflict was a major political disaster for US foreign policy. Not only (and as early as 1968) did it alter people’s perception of the US (abroad) but also saw the dissolution of SEATO (at least in part due to the ‘un-declared’ nature of the war). As well as the major political impact in the US (which the Soviets would have to wait until Afghanistan to see). Both in terms of undermining peoples confidence and respect in their leaders but also in undermining 40 years of stated US policy. It is true that the political question within the US is complicated by other factors (such as the civil rights and female emancipation questions) but Vietnam (especially after the ending of drafts deferments, not I suspect entirely coincidental) made those who traditional supported without question those in power to question them. [[ Slatersteven ( talk) 14:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)]]
He is not a historian, he is a linguist, who is a far-left political activist and is a supporter of Pol Pot. And secondly, to describe South Vietnam as a client state and somehow North Vietnam as not, is a joke. Blnguyen ( bananabucket) 07:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure his politics invalidate his views, but his actual accademic credentials are another matter. now are there any other sources that are used that are from mnon-historians, if so then mr Chomsky is as validas any other non-accademical historian. Both were client states, and so the article should reflct this. The issue of elections is a complex one, it has been sugested in the past that the reason why election were not held in Germany after tyhe war and Vietnam is that the resulots in one would not favour the west, and that results in the other would not favour the east, so both sides accepted a status que. By the way after which war? According to the terms of the Geneva Accords, Vietnam would hold national elections in 1956 to reunify the country. The division at the seventeenth parallel, a temporary separation without cultural precedent, would vanish with the elections. The United States, however, had other ideas. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles did not support the Geneva Accords because he thought they granted too much power to the Communist Party of Vietnam. In late 1957 Diem used the help of the American Central Intelligence Agency to identify those who sought to bring his government down and arrested thousands. Diem passed a repressive series of acts known as Law 10/59 that made it legal to hold someone in jail if s/he was a suspected Communist without bringing formal charges. This would make free and fair elections rather hard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slatersteven ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
No there were no free elections after 1954 (although it was supposed to have been in 1956, but the Americans pre-empted them by creating the state of South Vietnam, it was not the Communists who refused to have the national vote) or 1975, now is that because of the fear that the communists would lose, or because they had a one party system anyway (in common with all communist states)? The Vietmin national assembly was not the government of Vietnam in 1946 (by the way the French had outlawed the communist party). South Vietnam did not exist as a separate entity until 1956, so there was no South Vietnam for the French to negotiate with, and the US were not a party to the conflict and as such had no right to expect to be included. Did the communists hold such a referendum (by the way as far as I was aware South Korea was not communist so can hardly be used as a model of how a communist state would have behaved, but can be used to demonstrate US thinking). As to the issue of blame, the US handed the Vietmin a far better accusation then just losing a referendum, they did not even bother to hold one (proof of communist support they were willing to hold free elections (even if it was a lie it was not put to the test), proof of lack of US support the US refused to take part in country wide elections). Or presumably the shift is strategy was due to the fact that the US was not going go allow free elections in which the communists could stand, just like the French before them (another historical model every one was aware of). I think it is more the reasonable to assume that if you cannot win by peaceful you use more militant measures. I am not sure his writing style should be an issue either (after all any academic will allow his opinions to colour his writing). What has to be demonstrated is that the ‘facts’ as they are presented are wrong, or at least not supported by any evidence. Now you admit that there is nothing wrong with his credentials, that (therefore) he is academically respectable, as such that surely means that he is an academically reliable source. Moreover his support for causes does not make any ‘fact‘ he presents wrong, it has to be proved it was wrong by demonstration not association.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 13:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)]]
The google books link runs right across both columns and inhibits readability. Would someone edit it to display as a short text link, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toyblocks ( talk • contribs) 02:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
What where the matériel losses by the anti-communist during the Vietnam War, either from the French, or from the US period of involvement? I know there is an article on the aircraft losses, but the Vietnam War was not fought only in the air. Everything from naval vessels to handguns was lost as part of the ground combat. Where are these statistics available from?-- 124.184.92.15 ( talk) 07:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
There's an odd sentence in the Diem Era section:
"However, this wide popularity was expressed before Ho's land reform program and the suppression of a peasant revolt in Ho's home province,[citation needed] and Diem's imprisonment of 20,000 communists in reeducation camps"
I can see how Ho Chi Minh's popularity could have been affected after a land reform or supposed peasant revolt (although the latter is unsubstantiated, and his popularity was most likely linked to the land reforms, as the land reforms gave peasants back their land from the French-allied landlords and landlords in general), but how would Diem's imprisonment of 20,000 communists make Ho any less popular? Um, does the author of this sentence actually think that such "reeducation" would have turned those 20,000 into French-loving, peasant-hating, capitalist bastards?
It's an odd sentence, needs rewording. The claim regarding a peasant revolt should also be deleted since no citation has been provided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.143.199 ( talk) 03:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that we either throw in one of those "Expand this Section" banners in this section or just pull the whole section entirely, since we're really speaking of the Vietname War conflict. If it were me, I'd want a simple explanation of how the history of Vietnam led up to the events of the war, so I'd go with a section expansion. What does everyone think? -- MadameArsenic ( talk) 05:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I may have missed it, but I can't find any mention of the millions and millions of Vietnamese who fled Vietnam, because of the result of this war. It would improve the article immensely, wasn't the coining of the term "boat people" a reflection of the mass scale of Vietnamese refugees after 1975? twinqletwinqle ( talk) 04:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Several times now the caption of the image of the helicopter in this article has been changed “back” to “US Air Force”. Although the UH1 Iroquois was a US built aircraft, it was provided to nations all over the world and in this case, to the South Vietnamese military. It has been said that the USAF did not use this type of aircraft in Vietnam but my research on the Internet has found that “Special” AF units did use the UH1 as well as, of course, the US Army. An Internet search for “Vietnamese Air Force” will provide images of the RVN AF 217th Helicopter Squadron in color [2]. Close comparison of the image in the article and the color images will show that the stylized stars on the tail are yellow on a red background which US forces did not use. Additionally, examination of the black and white photo’s roundel compared to the roundel seen at [ [3]] will show that the RVN AF roundel has yellow and red bars, a white star on a blue field, and all is surrounded by a red outline. The gray-scale contrasts of the black and white photo will clearly match this description Vs. the roundel of the USAF at [ [4]] which has a blue outline matching the blue field behind the white star. Obviously the source information for the image was mistaken, but that isn’t a big deal. Meyerj ( talk) 12:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
There is an assertion in the article that the US offered nuclear weapons to France in order to defeat the communists. The citation for this is a weak and unreliable source. The source says that this assertion is supported by "Nixon's trial balloons." How can a trial balloon be presented as evidence? If the assertion is true and notable, there must be several 100 references to it in reliable objective sources. I am removing the sentence until one of those sources is cited. Dcooper ( talk) 12:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
See the Operation Vulture article. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 03:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Who supplied the Vietcong with money for their weapons, equipment, and such? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironclad 16 ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
The NLF got it's financial support from North Vietnam (I believe it was more in the form of equipment rather than cash), and I think they also taxed Vietnamese under their control in southern Vietnam.-- Sus scrofa ( talk) 23:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Most of the early clashes between American soldiers and Vietcong fighters only involved the Vietcong using small arms. The Vietcong strategy of using mostly ambushes of American patrols combined with Booby traps required few weapons. As the War developed the Vietcong increasingly had access to American weapons looted from U.S. prisoners and casualties. One of the tactics the Vietcong developed (fighting Americans at hideously close combat) was to compensate for their lack of heavy weapons. At such close combat the Americans could not use artillery or Air strikes in support of their troops for fear of killing their own men. Johnwrd ( talk) 22:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
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help), "Particularly in the early phases of the war, ambushes were often used to obtain weapons. ...". --
Boracay Bill (
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00:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
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help)There is information lacking about the contingent of East German NVA (Nationale Volks Armee) soldiers who were flown into North Viet Nam, clad in Cuban uniforms during the flights and, after landing, instructed the Viet Cong how to operate new combloc weapons. This contingent has taken part in actual battle and has caused an abruptly increasing rate of downed enemy planes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.184.34.168 ( talk) 14:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Too much weight on the US and not enough on the ARVN. I can't think of which ARVN should he there the most though. I guess Nguyen Khanh and Duong Van Minh headed juntas for a while, Tran Van Don was a general and then became defence minister for a while I think so was Nguyen Huu Co, Tran Thien Khiem was head of the armed forces for a while. What about leading battlefield generals. I'm not very much up to speed with that. Suggestions? YellowMonkey ( cricket calendar poll!) 05:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC) I want add this soucres http://www.vietnamgear.com/casualties.aspx. But I can't Saruman89 ( talk) 05:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
One of the important functions actors, artists, singers etc, fulfill in their countries is their function of helping their fellow citizens come to terms with 'National Trauma' (War, Famine, Economic disaster, Civil Rights, etc). Hollywood has served Americans well throughout it's years in this service. Yet Hollywood seems to have struggled with Vietnam. Vietnam Veterans Groups have also strongly objected at times to the image given to them by Popular Culture. Is this a case of a Nation still so divided and Polarised to an extent where they cannot ever reach a point of consensus? If you doubt Americans still hold strong views on Vietnam, just Google 'Jane Fonda'. Johnwrd ( talk) 01:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
No. What I am suggesting is that Americas Artistic community seem to have been overwhelmed as much as their fellow countrymen by the War. Totalitarian nations would simply ramp up the Propaganda machine. Johnwrd ( talk) 03:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O126-EasterOffensive.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Is this true? I mean I can believe that there were people opposing the war......but to support a socialist dictator with 1 million deaths over his head? Agrofelipe ( talk) 09:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
A major oversight, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cchivvis ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
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In the Article, under the Tet offensive section, the second to last sentence states : "His refusal to send more U.S. troops to Vietnam was Johnson's admission that the war was lost." This is not cited and I have reasoning to believe it is incorrect. In the Article "Strategic Reassessment in Vietnam: The Westmoreland "Alternate Strategy" of 1967-1968" Brigadier General [Then Colonel] Charles F. Brower IV., U.S. Army alludes to the sensitivity of implementing politically dangerous mobilization (i.e. Troop Escalations of up to an "optimum level" 300,000 for operations in Laos or Cambodia, and a possible North Vietnam invasion.) in the face of an approaching election year.
This does not mean that he thought the war was a failure at the end of his term of office. More likely, it means that he was wary that increased mobilization and pursuing alternate strategies would be admitting that his attrition strategy had failed, and would thus be political suicide. Furthermore, he did increase Troop levels by 55,000, far short of Westmoreland's requests, but against McNamara's established 470,000 troop ceiling.
Please Remove the passage: "His refusal to send more U.S. troops to Vietnam was Johnson's admission that the war was lost."
It has no factual grounding.
PX = Post exchange...a base store where stationed troops could presumably buy different objects/merchandise...article is currently locked so I can't edit, but here you go:
128.253.237.160 ( talk) 03:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)A random reader 128.253.237.160 ( talk) 03:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I happen to personally know a British RAF Vietnam War veteran, and yet its not mentioned in many places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.185.163 ( talk) 01:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
There are persistent rumours of British involvement in Vietnam, but no really hard evidence. We have this http://www.tf116.org/vgallery1.html It looks like an Avro Vulcan. In addition there were relief flights (it appears) using Beverlys to deliver food aid. John Parker's book, SBS: the inside story of the Special Boat Service (London: Headline, 1997) mentioned that SBS personnel were training the Vietnamese Lien Doi Nguoi Nhai (LDNN) (Vietnamese SEALs) alongside with U.S. Navy SEALs advisors. However there is mostly a rather dubious collection of hearsay and rumour. There were certainly personnel attached to the embassy but not in any military role. Moreover your cliam is very much OR now3 if you can provide reliable sources then include your claim in the article.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 13:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)]]
It seems British personnnel were in Vietnam (and one RAF officer was killed there) but never officially and never as whole units. The SBS may possibly have been there. The SAS definately weren't as they were extremely busy elsewhere. Other personnel would have been on secondment to US and Australian units that were posted to Vietnam and they may have defied orders and gone into battle.
The Britain's Small Wars website, an excellent site for ex-servciemen's stories, has had an appeal out for some time for anyone with any firm information to come forward and no-one has. 213.249.162.132 ( talk) 12:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Ref 'British Forces in Vietnam'. In one murky incident a British Special Air Service member was found murdered in a District of South Vietnam. The Ministry Of Defence in a press statement said he was a 'former member of the Army who appears to have made his own way to Vietnam'. Cannot give exact details here as none were ever given at the time. A few British Merchant Marine Sailors I have spoken to said they carried War Materials for U.S. backed forces in South East Asia on British Merchant Ships, but as usual were vague who they were carrying these supplies to (if they even existed). Johnwrd ( talk) 22:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
For some reason there is a rather vocal minority who feel that the UK must be mentioned in practically every Wikipedia article. Gingermint ( talk) 22:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Notes 48 and 49 only refer to "Pentagon Papers". More specific citations would help to support the claims these are making, which I would call Dubious. I really doubt that the Vietcong murdered schoolteachers and health care workers. These are claims which need much more support than what is given. 142.104.143.199 ( talk) 03:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
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help), speaking of El Salvador in the 1980s, says, "Before the war, 1,000 Salvadoran civilians were 'disappeared' or killed each month—union leaders, student activists, peasant organizers, health care workers, catholic priests, nuns and lay church leaders ...". There are people in the world today who are prepared to kill innocents in order to achieve a political objective; there were in 1980; there were in the 1960s; there were in other eras.
When heaven and earth change, Plume, 1990, p. 271,
ISBN
9780452271685 might give explicit support in the Vietnam context in the text surrounding the snippet "... it would be obscene to give these people work while 'honest citizens'—the Viet Cong and and North Vietnam army veterans and their supporters—are still waiting for work themselves. Unfortunately, because of their ties with the west a good many of the nation's health care ...", but that surrounding text doesn't seem to be viewable online and I'm just guessing at what it might say. --
Boracay Bill (
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03:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
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help), "The Viet Cong boasted of their terror tactics; when, for example, in 1966, terrorists opened fire with mortars on the main market center of Saigon, killing and maiming many, the Viet Cong radio called the attack 'a resounding exploit.' Sometimes the Viet Cong would kill the entire family of an official or schoolteacher, just to make their point more effectively. ...".Viet Cong did not kill teachers. http://books.google.com/books?id=2bzVAAAAIAAJ&q=%22viet+cong%22+did+not+kill+teachers&dq=%22viet+cong%22+did+not+kill+teachers&pgis=1 But you might like to look at http://books.google.com/books?id=OBC7yHS10AQC&pg=PA648&dq=%22vietcong%22+did+not+kill+teachers#PPA648,M1 (foot note 12). As I have said I do not dispute the claim (and have no issues with the sources as they stand) I just do not feel that dodgey sources or OR is a good way to go about proving the point. Also the Free world forces killed teachers too. http://books.google.com/books?id=mFiBAAAAMAAJ&q=%22vietcong%22+did+kill+teachers&dq=%22vietcong%22+did+kill+teachers&pgis=1 and http://books.google.com/books?id=KAXFjbOZriUC&pg=PA21&dq=%22vietcong%22+did+kill+teachers [[ Slatersteven ( talk) 14:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)]]
See Karnow in the are about pp 260-280. It's in there. Kill public servants. YellowMonkey ( cricket calendar poll!) 05:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The Vietcong committed atrocities on a regular basis. Better support should be provided in this article for this and, indeed, this should not be difficult as it is an easily supportable issue. Gingermint ( talk) 22:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The title of this section seems rather misleading. While the use of these chemicals is well documented, it is my understanding that the immediate goal was not to inflict harm upon the populace, but rather to defoliate the area. Under most definitions of chemical warfare, I do not believe this qualifies. Suggest relabeling to something more neutral, such as "Chemical Defoliation" 173.66.16.240 ( talk) 07:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the label fits as 40% of the herbicides used were dropped on food crops. Clearly an instant of chemical warfare.-- Sus scrofa ( talk) 13:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
"A South Vietnamese air force UH-1 "Huey" helicopter over the Mekong Delta in 1970" If it's South Vietnamese, then why does it have a U.S. star and stripes aircraft marking? I get that they were U.S. allies. But, didn't they have their own markings? 68.55.199.40 ( talk) 21:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually I was mistaken. Refer to "Image Caption" above, on this discussion page. A note could be made that in black and white the Vietnamese marking looks very similar to the U.S. marking, so there's no more confusion. 68.55.199.40 ( talk) 22:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I war aware tjhe US backed a secret army in Loas, they were not actualy backing the government of loas (and the governemtn of laos never backed the US). Slatersteven ( talk) 19:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Try to use correct spelling. If you could find a reliable source, feel free to add it to the article. Otherwise, don't. Xomm ( talk) 01:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Though , North Vietnameses aided and sometimes were involeved in fightin with Viet Cong in South Vietnam.The False "attack" by North Vietmanese gunboats on US Navy Ships in the Gulf of Toneke was of course the "lie" that really involved the United sates in the war. The so called "Dominno Theory "where one country would fall to Communists then another was not mentioned in article.Present day Afganistan and our troop surges are an example of how Guerrila armies can keep at bay large coneventional armies. Perhaps we'll learn?merci' Thanks!(datedWaronVietnam,Sn.AMSept.20,200921stcent.Dr.Edson Andre' Johnson D.D.ULC>) ANDREMOI ( talk) 18:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, of course there is doubt as to the veracity of the Gulf of Tonken incident. There are some who doubt it ever even happened. Gingermint ( talk) 22:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
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In the "See Also" section of this page both of these links refer to the same page. | U.S. news media and the Vietnam War
Can someone change this please? Thank you.
-David
Everybody please help expand this article. 207.233.71.247 ( talk) 18:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
According to this source Chapter 28 of THE U.S ARMY IN VIETNAM - American Military History it states that there are in total 1,761 GIs MIA as of 27 April 2001.
Ben1941 ( talk) 07:50, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
just found a better source to verify the number of GIs missing from the vietnam war as of 9th Dec 2009 The Personnel Missing - Southeast Asia (PMSEA) Database from Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personal Office (DPMO) According to DPMO, there are still 1724 GIs missing.
Ben1941 ( talk) 08:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
File:TrangBang.jpg is perhaps, the iconic picture from the Vietnam War. It has a fair use rationale for this article, but is not being used. I believe that it should appear in the article. Mjroots ( talk) 10:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
In this edit I reverted a change which would have characterized this conflict as a civil war. I fumble-fingered saving that edit and it has only a partial edit summary. Having come to the talk page to explain, I'll be more verbose than I would have been in an edit summary.
A civil war is a war between organized groups within a single nation state. It was not the intent of the 1954 Geneva Accords to partition Vietnam into separate countries, but that was the de-facto effect. North and South Vietnam were separately recognized in various countries as separate governments. There may be room for argument about whether such recognitions made either or both governments legitimate sovereign states, but I doubt that there is much support in reliable sources for the assertion that the Second Indochina War was a civil war. An assertion to this effect should to cite supporting sources. If such a cite-supported assertion is made, WP:DUE and WP:BALANCE probably come into play. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
In the 5th paragraph in the opening section there is "The war exacted a huge human cost in terms of fatalities (See: Vietnam War casualties), including 3 to 4 million Vietnamese from both sides, 1.5 to 2 million Laotians and Cambodians, and 58,159 U.S. soldiers" - why is it necessary to state there that 58,159 American soldiers were killed? How does that compare in any way to the 3-4 million Vietnamese and 2 million Laotians and Cambodians? If you're going to include a figure there then maybe you could give the number of deaths for all other countries rather than continuing with yet another Americanization of a Wikipedia article.-- Xania talk 22:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I concur with Xania and Slatersteven in questioning why the US military casualties are equated with the colossal civilian casualties in Vietnam and Cambodia. Izzedine 11:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I think whomever made the most recent edit concerning the Tet Offensive has confused the language. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when the offensive is spoken of as a victory or failure depends on whether we are talking about the US or NV. I think the language of the paragraph needs to be examined and discussed before altering words that shift the meaning of the paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prussian725 ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Like many other war articles, I suppose we use this Image:VietnamMural.jpg back to the infobox to replace the current one. 71.107.193.35 ( talk) 22:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The Article states that Conscription was RE-introduced in Australia. I was fairly certain that conscription has never been active in Australia, it was proposed during WW1 but the referenda was defeated twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.87.185 ( talk) 13:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} I have been raised as an Vietnamese Tradition. I need to add on more details to add to an exciting story.
MisterVietnam ( talk) 22:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC) The edit i want is page Vietnam War
Group patrol engaged in combat operations in Thoi Binh District, An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 29 October 1963, Captain Versace and the CIDG assault force were caught in an ambush from intense mortar, automatic weapons, and small arms f ire from elements of a reinforced enemy Main Force battalion. As the battle raged, Captain Versace fought valiantly and encouraged his CIDG patrol to return fire against overwhelming enemy forces. He provided covering fire from an exposed position to enable friendly forces to withdraw from the killing zone when it was apparent that their position would be overrun, and was severely wounded in the knee and back from automatic weapons fire and shrapnel. He stubbornly resisted capture with the last full measure of his strength and ammunition. Taken prisoner by the Viet Cong, he demonstrated exceptional leadership and resolute adherence to the tenets of the Code of Conduct from the time he entered into a prisoner of war status. Captain Versace assumed command of his fellow American prisoners, and despite being kept locked in irons in an isolation box, raised their morale by singing messages to popular songs of the day, and leaving inspiring messages at the latrine. Within three weeks of captivity, and despite the severity of his untreated wounds, he attempted the first of four escape attempts by dragging himself on his hands and knees out of the camp through dense swamp and forbidding vegetation to freedom. Crawling at a very slow pace due to his weakened condition, the guards quickly discovered him outside the camp and recaptured him. Captain Versace scorned the enemy's exhaustive interrogation and indoctrination efforts, and inspired his fellow prisoners to resist to the best of their ability. When he used his Vietnamese language skills to protest improper treatment of the American prisoners by the guards, he was put into leg irons and gagged to keep his protestations out of earshot of the other American prisoners in the camp. The last time that any of his fellow prisoners heard from him, Captain Versace was singing God Bless America at the top of his voice from his isolation box. Unable to break his indomitable will, his faith in God, and his trust in the United States of America and his fellow prisoners, Captain Versace was executed by the Viet Cong on 26 September 1965. Captain Versace's extraordinary heroism, self-sacrifice, and personal bravery involving conspicuous risk of life above and beyond the call of duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Army, and reflect great credit to himself and the U.S. Armed Forces —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.213.12 ( talk) 23:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Call me stupid (Many do), but wouldn't it be a nice idea if somewhere in this article there were the reasons given at the time for them fighting the war, from each side? I even had a quick look through wikiquote, but couldn't find any clear, unambiguous reason for why the sides were fighting. -OOPSIE- ( talk) 02:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
In a sence it was a nationalist conflict. In a sence an ideological one.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 15:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)]]
You know, though, there was more to it than that. This was fallout from World War I; unresolved metastatic issues of imperialism and matters of economics. The communist issues were, in some views, an accelerant. As you'd imagine, there are some who disagree with this idea. There are several theories of why the war began and, it must be noted, there are disagreements as to when exactly it began. This should be illustrated at the beginning of the article. As it stands now one would think it is all very obvious and there are no real historical disagreements or ambiguities. The first part of the article is, I think, the worst part and needs serious revising. Gingermint ( talk) 22:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The harrowing and catastrophic events that plagued the American soldiers during the Vietnam War truly are unimaginable. Not only did the soldiers endure physical pain while crossing enemy lines in Vietnam, but they were also faced with psychological obstacles as well. Three movies that strongly portray an American soldier’s physical and psychological deficits while in Vietnam include Full Metal Jacket, Apocalypse Now, and The Deer Hunter. Each movie portrays harrowing and unforgettable scenes of gore, which invokes sympathy within the viewer as the viewer witnesses the Americans human condition slowly deteriorate. Full Metal Jacket is a movie directed by Stanley Kubrick, which is a deromanticization of the Vietnam War. This highly political and second wave film was originally based on the 1979 novel The Short-Timers. The Short-Timers, written by Gustav Hasford, is based on the experience of Hasford while serving in Vietnam (Full Metal Jacket). Full Metal Jacket portrays many brutal scenes that portray each of the soldier’s loss of humanity and each of the soldier’s desire to kill and stay alive. Stanley Kubrick’s film is a prime example of the psychologically effects the brutal war tactics of the combatants of the Vietnam War played on the American soldiers. Sergeant Hartman takes it upon himself to buck up a group of timid boys and turn them into merciless soldiers ready for battle. Psychologically and physically, Hartman tears away at the young men preparing them for the worst and most unexpected of events that will take place in Vietnam. Initially, the movie takes place within the training camp as the Marines prepare for war, in the second half the soldiers battle to survive in Vietnam. Although the soldiers are ready for battle, they each face a loss of humanity and are confronted with the desire of revenge. Each of the soldiers is in a way dehumanized and forced to fill the roles of unborn killers. One particular scene, which is quite memorable from Kubrick’s Full Metal Jacket, is the scene in which one of the characters known as Private Joker is confronted with the task of killing a pre-teen sniper. Private Joker is forced to give up and ignore any sense of compassion and sincerity, and must do what is best for his country and fellow comrades. The scene is a battle between an unadulterated protagonist and a callous antagonist; however, Private Joker is strictly doing what is best for his country and for his survival. This scene encompasses the Joker’s loss of humanity and shows the tactics and skills he had learned from Sergeant Hartman; a loss of humanity and vigor for violence. This unforgettable scene of gore shows how the solider will do anything for himself and his comrade to survive and make it out of war alive. Their immorality on the battlefield helps them to survive, and defeat as many Vietnamese as possible. Francis Ford Coppola is the director and producer of the first wave Vietnam movie Apocalypse Now. Apocalypse Now is an extremely unique film representing the Vietnam War. Coppola’s film became infamous because of its extensive production documented in Hearts of Darkness: A filmmaker’s Apocalypse. Hearts of Darkness depicts the troubles the crew went through while filming the movie, including weather conditions and actor’s health (Hearts of Darkness). Coppola does a unique job of portraying how a soldier deteriorates mentally and physically throughout the war with his use of Martin Sheen’s narrative. Sheen’s character, Captain Benjamin L. Willard, does a magnificent job of expressing his deep and darkest nightmares throughout. The audience is able to follow Willard’s journey, discover his most fearful nightmares, and experience his adventures through his narration. The viewer listens to his psychological degradation and witnesses his physical dilapidation. Although Apocalypse Now entails numerous battle scenes that portray a soldier’s loss of humanization, one specific scene portrays Captain Willard’s callousness. While riding down the river, the group of soldiers spots a boat hosting Vietnamese civilians. Although Willard protests against stopping, the crew insists that the civilians may be smuggling supplies. Bullets break out when one of the Vietnamese civilians reaches for something unknown to the American soldiers. Willard refuses to save the one badly hurt surviving civilian, and ends up shooting her mercilessly. The killing of the young civilian depicts Willard as a callous killer, which the Vietnam War has turned him into. Ernest Giglio’s book Here’s Looking At You describes the incentive of the soldiers within the war as those who understood that, “war could not be fought by conventional means, nor could it be won by civilized methods” (pg 206). His main goal is to survive, and do what is best for himself. Willard is psychologically degraded and has obtained a bleak outlook on life. The soldiers were worn down and after killing the young girl Willard’s thoughts are, “It was the way we had over here of living with ourselves. We’d cut ‘em in half with a machine gun and give ‘em a bandaid” (Dirks). Humanity was for those who didn’t believe in survival. Michael Cimino’s star filled film The Deer Hunter portrays a group of young steelworker’s adventures in the Vietnam War. Cimino’s film is loosely inspired by Three Comrades, a German novel written in 1937 regarding a trio of World War I veterans. The Deer Hunter, a first wave film, coveys and goes into the deep understanding of the mental consequences Vietnam had on such young American soldiers. The movie’s title accounts for the metaphor of ‘deer hunting’- both from the perspective of the hunter and from the perspective of the game target. Cimino’s extremely political and emotional film portrays three young men and their struggle to survive in Vietnam. Each of the men endures unimaginable torture by the Vietnamese combatants, and is forced to survive by means of forgetting humanity and embracing a killer’s attitude. The battle scenes represented in the film strongly depict the physical torment but also reveals the unimaginable psychological damage a soldier faces. One of the most memorable scenes of The Deer Hunter is when the American soldiers are forced into a game of Russian roulette for the Vietnamese guards’ entertainment. Before playing in the game, the prisoners are forced to stay in an underwater trap with rats until called for the next game. While waiting, one of the soldiers, Steven, breaks down. He can hear the gun shot up above him, and the psychological effect plays deep into his conscious. The fear and anxiety of what is to come of him takes over; these were tactics of the Vietnamese. The Vietnamese also have an underwater cell with rats trapping the victim with bamboo sticks covering their escape. The game itself forces the prisoner to question his life, whether or not the next bullet will kill him or not, it portrays the callous absurdity of war. Finally, two American soldiers overcome the guards with their own ideas of loading the gun with enough bullets to kill the guards with guns. The two men are forced to overcome their psychological anxieties and rely on their instincts as prisoners of war. The soldiers were psychologically degraded and in the time of war, lost their sense of humanity and focused on survival. These three films superbly delineate the psychological and physical effects the American soldiers endured while fighting in Vietnam. Each of these artists have monumental themes within their Vietnam War films, the dehumanization of the soldiers conveys more than just the portrayal of the physical and psychological degradation of the soldiers in Vietnam. These young men put their lives in extreme danger for their country, although many believed the war was unnecessary and unsupported, the soldiers were doing their duty to America. Physically, emotionally, psychologically they were tortured, beat down, and tormented. Upon arriving back in the U.S, they received no support, and were left with nothing but war wounds. Ernest Giglio touches on this aspect of the war in his book “Here’s Looking At You” in which he states “Vietnam veterans returned to America in silence, either ignored or scorned by their country. There were no heroes in this war” (pg 203). The underlying theme and messages within these movies surrounding Vietnam is the fact that the American soldiers fought an unsupported war. The Vietnam War lead to the degradation of the American society, nationalism was non-existent. “Hollywood focused on the American presence rather than on the Vietnamese people who endured and suffered through the war,” states Ernest Giglio on the film industry’s portrayal of the Vietnam War (pg 210). The American soldiers returned to an ungrateful nation when instead the nation should have paid homage to their efforts and struggles to survive in war. Physical and psychological degradation ruined many of the soldier’s lives, and it occurred because of the brutality of war. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nsands ( talk • contribs) 19:49, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.162.2.82 ( talk) 22:57, 10 June 2009 (UTC)
US foreign policy was always going to be defeated. You can look back as far as the 3rd Crusade led by King Richard the Lionheart when he failed to take back the city of Jerusalem. His armies fought the arabs in the holy land only to find that that the jewish population fled to Asia, most notably the north of Vietnam where they mixed in with the locals of the area. Centuries later the french who had colonies in vietnam fought the vietminh who was led by Ho Chi Minh a descendent of Jewish knight Balian of Immula who incidentally was part of the second crusade. Ho Chi Minh or Ho Chi as he like to be called did not want the french in vietnam and led a crusade of his own to remove the French only to find that the United States wanted to keep the north and south a seperate country and under asian jewish law this was not possible which is evident in the Acre treaty that was negotiated between King Richard and Yasser Arrafat a palastinien celebrity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenroygenius101 ( talk • contribs) 13:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
No sorry this cant be removed as this has been certified by JESUS! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Glenroygenius101 ( talk • contribs) 10:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Is this true? For example Noam Chomsky's view is that the US scored a victory by destroying South Vietnamese nationalism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Noam_Chomsky#Opposition_to_the_Vietnam_War
Twotdot24334 ( talk) 21:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
A cease fire was negotiated and South Vietnam was still in existance with the terms of the treaty, so I'd say that the U.S. Foreign Policy suceeded —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dunnsworth ( talk • contribs) 01:47, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
It also diverted massive US resources, and it could be argued far more (especially in terms of manpower) then the Soviet Union. Indeed the US was strategically massively overstretched by Vietnam, in a way the Soviets were not. Moreover the conflict was a major political disaster for US foreign policy. Not only (and as early as 1968) did it alter people’s perception of the US (abroad) but also saw the dissolution of SEATO (at least in part due to the ‘un-declared’ nature of the war). As well as the major political impact in the US (which the Soviets would have to wait until Afghanistan to see). Both in terms of undermining peoples confidence and respect in their leaders but also in undermining 40 years of stated US policy. It is true that the political question within the US is complicated by other factors (such as the civil rights and female emancipation questions) but Vietnam (especially after the ending of drafts deferments, not I suspect entirely coincidental) made those who traditional supported without question those in power to question them. [[ Slatersteven ( talk) 14:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)]]
He is not a historian, he is a linguist, who is a far-left political activist and is a supporter of Pol Pot. And secondly, to describe South Vietnam as a client state and somehow North Vietnam as not, is a joke. Blnguyen ( bananabucket) 07:27, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
I am not sure his politics invalidate his views, but his actual accademic credentials are another matter. now are there any other sources that are used that are from mnon-historians, if so then mr Chomsky is as validas any other non-accademical historian. Both were client states, and so the article should reflct this. The issue of elections is a complex one, it has been sugested in the past that the reason why election were not held in Germany after tyhe war and Vietnam is that the resulots in one would not favour the west, and that results in the other would not favour the east, so both sides accepted a status que. By the way after which war? According to the terms of the Geneva Accords, Vietnam would hold national elections in 1956 to reunify the country. The division at the seventeenth parallel, a temporary separation without cultural precedent, would vanish with the elections. The United States, however, had other ideas. Secretary of State John Foster Dulles did not support the Geneva Accords because he thought they granted too much power to the Communist Party of Vietnam. In late 1957 Diem used the help of the American Central Intelligence Agency to identify those who sought to bring his government down and arrested thousands. Diem passed a repressive series of acts known as Law 10/59 that made it legal to hold someone in jail if s/he was a suspected Communist without bringing formal charges. This would make free and fair elections rather hard. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slatersteven ( talk • contribs) 15:18, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
No there were no free elections after 1954 (although it was supposed to have been in 1956, but the Americans pre-empted them by creating the state of South Vietnam, it was not the Communists who refused to have the national vote) or 1975, now is that because of the fear that the communists would lose, or because they had a one party system anyway (in common with all communist states)? The Vietmin national assembly was not the government of Vietnam in 1946 (by the way the French had outlawed the communist party). South Vietnam did not exist as a separate entity until 1956, so there was no South Vietnam for the French to negotiate with, and the US were not a party to the conflict and as such had no right to expect to be included. Did the communists hold such a referendum (by the way as far as I was aware South Korea was not communist so can hardly be used as a model of how a communist state would have behaved, but can be used to demonstrate US thinking). As to the issue of blame, the US handed the Vietmin a far better accusation then just losing a referendum, they did not even bother to hold one (proof of communist support they were willing to hold free elections (even if it was a lie it was not put to the test), proof of lack of US support the US refused to take part in country wide elections). Or presumably the shift is strategy was due to the fact that the US was not going go allow free elections in which the communists could stand, just like the French before them (another historical model every one was aware of). I think it is more the reasonable to assume that if you cannot win by peaceful you use more militant measures. I am not sure his writing style should be an issue either (after all any academic will allow his opinions to colour his writing). What has to be demonstrated is that the ‘facts’ as they are presented are wrong, or at least not supported by any evidence. Now you admit that there is nothing wrong with his credentials, that (therefore) he is academically respectable, as such that surely means that he is an academically reliable source. Moreover his support for causes does not make any ‘fact‘ he presents wrong, it has to be proved it was wrong by demonstration not association.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 13:54, 3 August 2008 (UTC)]]
The google books link runs right across both columns and inhibits readability. Would someone edit it to display as a short text link, please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Toyblocks ( talk • contribs) 02:52, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
What where the matériel losses by the anti-communist during the Vietnam War, either from the French, or from the US period of involvement? I know there is an article on the aircraft losses, but the Vietnam War was not fought only in the air. Everything from naval vessels to handguns was lost as part of the ground combat. Where are these statistics available from?-- 124.184.92.15 ( talk) 07:57, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
There's an odd sentence in the Diem Era section:
"However, this wide popularity was expressed before Ho's land reform program and the suppression of a peasant revolt in Ho's home province,[citation needed] and Diem's imprisonment of 20,000 communists in reeducation camps"
I can see how Ho Chi Minh's popularity could have been affected after a land reform or supposed peasant revolt (although the latter is unsubstantiated, and his popularity was most likely linked to the land reforms, as the land reforms gave peasants back their land from the French-allied landlords and landlords in general), but how would Diem's imprisonment of 20,000 communists make Ho any less popular? Um, does the author of this sentence actually think that such "reeducation" would have turned those 20,000 into French-loving, peasant-hating, capitalist bastards?
It's an odd sentence, needs rewording. The claim regarding a peasant revolt should also be deleted since no citation has been provided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.104.143.199 ( talk) 03:22, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
I suggest that we either throw in one of those "Expand this Section" banners in this section or just pull the whole section entirely, since we're really speaking of the Vietname War conflict. If it were me, I'd want a simple explanation of how the history of Vietnam led up to the events of the war, so I'd go with a section expansion. What does everyone think? -- MadameArsenic ( talk) 05:12, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
I may have missed it, but I can't find any mention of the millions and millions of Vietnamese who fled Vietnam, because of the result of this war. It would improve the article immensely, wasn't the coining of the term "boat people" a reflection of the mass scale of Vietnamese refugees after 1975? twinqletwinqle ( talk) 04:47, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
Several times now the caption of the image of the helicopter in this article has been changed “back” to “US Air Force”. Although the UH1 Iroquois was a US built aircraft, it was provided to nations all over the world and in this case, to the South Vietnamese military. It has been said that the USAF did not use this type of aircraft in Vietnam but my research on the Internet has found that “Special” AF units did use the UH1 as well as, of course, the US Army. An Internet search for “Vietnamese Air Force” will provide images of the RVN AF 217th Helicopter Squadron in color [2]. Close comparison of the image in the article and the color images will show that the stylized stars on the tail are yellow on a red background which US forces did not use. Additionally, examination of the black and white photo’s roundel compared to the roundel seen at [ [3]] will show that the RVN AF roundel has yellow and red bars, a white star on a blue field, and all is surrounded by a red outline. The gray-scale contrasts of the black and white photo will clearly match this description Vs. the roundel of the USAF at [ [4]] which has a blue outline matching the blue field behind the white star. Obviously the source information for the image was mistaken, but that isn’t a big deal. Meyerj ( talk) 12:09, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
There is an assertion in the article that the US offered nuclear weapons to France in order to defeat the communists. The citation for this is a weak and unreliable source. The source says that this assertion is supported by "Nixon's trial balloons." How can a trial balloon be presented as evidence? If the assertion is true and notable, there must be several 100 references to it in reliable objective sources. I am removing the sentence until one of those sources is cited. Dcooper ( talk) 12:36, 23 April 2009 (UTC)
See the Operation Vulture article. -- Boracay Bill ( talk) 03:55, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Who supplied the Vietcong with money for their weapons, equipment, and such? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ironclad 16 ( talk • contribs) 21:21, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
The NLF got it's financial support from North Vietnam (I believe it was more in the form of equipment rather than cash), and I think they also taxed Vietnamese under their control in southern Vietnam.-- Sus scrofa ( talk) 23:11, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Most of the early clashes between American soldiers and Vietcong fighters only involved the Vietcong using small arms. The Vietcong strategy of using mostly ambushes of American patrols combined with Booby traps required few weapons. As the War developed the Vietcong increasingly had access to American weapons looted from U.S. prisoners and casualties. One of the tactics the Vietcong developed (fighting Americans at hideously close combat) was to compensate for their lack of heavy weapons. At such close combat the Americans could not use artillery or Air strikes in support of their troops for fear of killing their own men. Johnwrd ( talk) 22:31, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
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: |contributor=
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help), "Particularly in the early phases of the war, ambushes were often used to obtain weapons. ...". --
Boracay Bill (
talk)
00:38, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
{{
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help)There is information lacking about the contingent of East German NVA (Nationale Volks Armee) soldiers who were flown into North Viet Nam, clad in Cuban uniforms during the flights and, after landing, instructed the Viet Cong how to operate new combloc weapons. This contingent has taken part in actual battle and has caused an abruptly increasing rate of downed enemy planes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.184.34.168 ( talk) 14:34, 7 June 2009 (UTC)
Too much weight on the US and not enough on the ARVN. I can't think of which ARVN should he there the most though. I guess Nguyen Khanh and Duong Van Minh headed juntas for a while, Tran Van Don was a general and then became defence minister for a while I think so was Nguyen Huu Co, Tran Thien Khiem was head of the armed forces for a while. What about leading battlefield generals. I'm not very much up to speed with that. Suggestions? YellowMonkey ( cricket calendar poll!) 05:50, 12 June 2009 (UTC) I want add this soucres http://www.vietnamgear.com/casualties.aspx. But I can't Saruman89 ( talk) 05:26, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
One of the important functions actors, artists, singers etc, fulfill in their countries is their function of helping their fellow citizens come to terms with 'National Trauma' (War, Famine, Economic disaster, Civil Rights, etc). Hollywood has served Americans well throughout it's years in this service. Yet Hollywood seems to have struggled with Vietnam. Vietnam Veterans Groups have also strongly objected at times to the image given to them by Popular Culture. Is this a case of a Nation still so divided and Polarised to an extent where they cannot ever reach a point of consensus? If you doubt Americans still hold strong views on Vietnam, just Google 'Jane Fonda'. Johnwrd ( talk) 01:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
No. What I am suggesting is that Americas Artistic community seem to have been overwhelmed as much as their fellow countrymen by the War. Totalitarian nations would simply ramp up the Propaganda machine. Johnwrd ( talk) 03:33, 2 July 2009 (UTC)
One or more portions of this article duplicated other source(s). The material was copied from: http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O126-EasterOffensive.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. -- Moonriddengirl (talk) 14:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
Is this true? I mean I can believe that there were people opposing the war......but to support a socialist dictator with 1 million deaths over his head? Agrofelipe ( talk) 09:01, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
A major oversight, no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cchivvis ( talk • contribs) 01:12, 31 July 2009 (UTC)
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In the Article, under the Tet offensive section, the second to last sentence states : "His refusal to send more U.S. troops to Vietnam was Johnson's admission that the war was lost." This is not cited and I have reasoning to believe it is incorrect. In the Article "Strategic Reassessment in Vietnam: The Westmoreland "Alternate Strategy" of 1967-1968" Brigadier General [Then Colonel] Charles F. Brower IV., U.S. Army alludes to the sensitivity of implementing politically dangerous mobilization (i.e. Troop Escalations of up to an "optimum level" 300,000 for operations in Laos or Cambodia, and a possible North Vietnam invasion.) in the face of an approaching election year.
This does not mean that he thought the war was a failure at the end of his term of office. More likely, it means that he was wary that increased mobilization and pursuing alternate strategies would be admitting that his attrition strategy had failed, and would thus be political suicide. Furthermore, he did increase Troop levels by 55,000, far short of Westmoreland's requests, but against McNamara's established 470,000 troop ceiling.
Please Remove the passage: "His refusal to send more U.S. troops to Vietnam was Johnson's admission that the war was lost."
It has no factual grounding.
PX = Post exchange...a base store where stationed troops could presumably buy different objects/merchandise...article is currently locked so I can't edit, but here you go:
128.253.237.160 ( talk) 03:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)A random reader 128.253.237.160 ( talk) 03:51, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I happen to personally know a British RAF Vietnam War veteran, and yet its not mentioned in many places. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.185.163 ( talk) 01:14, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
There are persistent rumours of British involvement in Vietnam, but no really hard evidence. We have this http://www.tf116.org/vgallery1.html It looks like an Avro Vulcan. In addition there were relief flights (it appears) using Beverlys to deliver food aid. John Parker's book, SBS: the inside story of the Special Boat Service (London: Headline, 1997) mentioned that SBS personnel were training the Vietnamese Lien Doi Nguoi Nhai (LDNN) (Vietnamese SEALs) alongside with U.S. Navy SEALs advisors. However there is mostly a rather dubious collection of hearsay and rumour. There were certainly personnel attached to the embassy but not in any military role. Moreover your cliam is very much OR now3 if you can provide reliable sources then include your claim in the article.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 13:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)]]
It seems British personnnel were in Vietnam (and one RAF officer was killed there) but never officially and never as whole units. The SBS may possibly have been there. The SAS definately weren't as they were extremely busy elsewhere. Other personnel would have been on secondment to US and Australian units that were posted to Vietnam and they may have defied orders and gone into battle.
The Britain's Small Wars website, an excellent site for ex-servciemen's stories, has had an appeal out for some time for anyone with any firm information to come forward and no-one has. 213.249.162.132 ( talk) 12:41, 11 June 2009 (UTC)
Ref 'British Forces in Vietnam'. In one murky incident a British Special Air Service member was found murdered in a District of South Vietnam. The Ministry Of Defence in a press statement said he was a 'former member of the Army who appears to have made his own way to Vietnam'. Cannot give exact details here as none were ever given at the time. A few British Merchant Marine Sailors I have spoken to said they carried War Materials for U.S. backed forces in South East Asia on British Merchant Ships, but as usual were vague who they were carrying these supplies to (if they even existed). Johnwrd ( talk) 22:37, 7 August 2009 (UTC)
For some reason there is a rather vocal minority who feel that the UK must be mentioned in practically every Wikipedia article. Gingermint ( talk) 22:33, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
Notes 48 and 49 only refer to "Pentagon Papers". More specific citations would help to support the claims these are making, which I would call Dubious. I really doubt that the Vietcong murdered schoolteachers and health care workers. These are claims which need much more support than what is given. 142.104.143.199 ( talk) 03:29, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
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help), speaking of El Salvador in the 1980s, says, "Before the war, 1,000 Salvadoran civilians were 'disappeared' or killed each month—union leaders, student activists, peasant organizers, health care workers, catholic priests, nuns and lay church leaders ...". There are people in the world today who are prepared to kill innocents in order to achieve a political objective; there were in 1980; there were in the 1960s; there were in other eras.
When heaven and earth change, Plume, 1990, p. 271,
ISBN
9780452271685 might give explicit support in the Vietnam context in the text surrounding the snippet "... it would be obscene to give these people work while 'honest citizens'—the Viet Cong and and North Vietnam army veterans and their supporters—are still waiting for work themselves. Unfortunately, because of their ties with the west a good many of the nation's health care ...", but that surrounding text doesn't seem to be viewable online and I'm just guessing at what it might say. --
Boracay Bill (
talk)
03:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
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help), "The Viet Cong boasted of their terror tactics; when, for example, in 1966, terrorists opened fire with mortars on the main market center of Saigon, killing and maiming many, the Viet Cong radio called the attack 'a resounding exploit.' Sometimes the Viet Cong would kill the entire family of an official or schoolteacher, just to make their point more effectively. ...".Viet Cong did not kill teachers. http://books.google.com/books?id=2bzVAAAAIAAJ&q=%22viet+cong%22+did+not+kill+teachers&dq=%22viet+cong%22+did+not+kill+teachers&pgis=1 But you might like to look at http://books.google.com/books?id=OBC7yHS10AQC&pg=PA648&dq=%22vietcong%22+did+not+kill+teachers#PPA648,M1 (foot note 12). As I have said I do not dispute the claim (and have no issues with the sources as they stand) I just do not feel that dodgey sources or OR is a good way to go about proving the point. Also the Free world forces killed teachers too. http://books.google.com/books?id=mFiBAAAAMAAJ&q=%22vietcong%22+did+kill+teachers&dq=%22vietcong%22+did+kill+teachers&pgis=1 and http://books.google.com/books?id=KAXFjbOZriUC&pg=PA21&dq=%22vietcong%22+did+kill+teachers [[ Slatersteven ( talk) 14:45, 18 May 2009 (UTC)]]
See Karnow in the are about pp 260-280. It's in there. Kill public servants. YellowMonkey ( cricket calendar poll!) 05:32, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
The Vietcong committed atrocities on a regular basis. Better support should be provided in this article for this and, indeed, this should not be difficult as it is an easily supportable issue. Gingermint ( talk) 22:37, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
The title of this section seems rather misleading. While the use of these chemicals is well documented, it is my understanding that the immediate goal was not to inflict harm upon the populace, but rather to defoliate the area. Under most definitions of chemical warfare, I do not believe this qualifies. Suggest relabeling to something more neutral, such as "Chemical Defoliation" 173.66.16.240 ( talk) 07:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the label fits as 40% of the herbicides used were dropped on food crops. Clearly an instant of chemical warfare.-- Sus scrofa ( talk) 13:08, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
"A South Vietnamese air force UH-1 "Huey" helicopter over the Mekong Delta in 1970" If it's South Vietnamese, then why does it have a U.S. star and stripes aircraft marking? I get that they were U.S. allies. But, didn't they have their own markings? 68.55.199.40 ( talk) 21:57, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
Actually I was mistaken. Refer to "Image Caption" above, on this discussion page. A note could be made that in black and white the Vietnamese marking looks very similar to the U.S. marking, so there's no more confusion. 68.55.199.40 ( talk) 22:15, 17 September 2009 (UTC)
As far as I war aware tjhe US backed a secret army in Loas, they were not actualy backing the government of loas (and the governemtn of laos never backed the US). Slatersteven ( talk) 19:13, 19 September 2009 (UTC)
Try to use correct spelling. If you could find a reliable source, feel free to add it to the article. Otherwise, don't. Xomm ( talk) 01:23, 7 March 2010 (UTC)
Though , North Vietnameses aided and sometimes were involeved in fightin with Viet Cong in South Vietnam.The False "attack" by North Vietmanese gunboats on US Navy Ships in the Gulf of Toneke was of course the "lie" that really involved the United sates in the war. The so called "Dominno Theory "where one country would fall to Communists then another was not mentioned in article.Present day Afganistan and our troop surges are an example of how Guerrila armies can keep at bay large coneventional armies. Perhaps we'll learn?merci' Thanks!(datedWaronVietnam,Sn.AMSept.20,200921stcent.Dr.Edson Andre' Johnson D.D.ULC>) ANDREMOI ( talk) 18:03, 20 September 2009 (UTC)
Well, of course there is doubt as to the veracity of the Gulf of Tonken incident. There are some who doubt it ever even happened. Gingermint ( talk) 22:45, 27 October 2009 (UTC)
...
...
...
In the "See Also" section of this page both of these links refer to the same page. | U.S. news media and the Vietnam War
Can someone change this please? Thank you.
-David
Everybody please help expand this article. 207.233.71.247 ( talk) 18:58, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
According to this source Chapter 28 of THE U.S ARMY IN VIETNAM - American Military History it states that there are in total 1,761 GIs MIA as of 27 April 2001.
Ben1941 ( talk) 07:50, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
just found a better source to verify the number of GIs missing from the vietnam war as of 9th Dec 2009 The Personnel Missing - Southeast Asia (PMSEA) Database from Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personal Office (DPMO) According to DPMO, there are still 1724 GIs missing.
Ben1941 ( talk) 08:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
File:TrangBang.jpg is perhaps, the iconic picture from the Vietnam War. It has a fair use rationale for this article, but is not being used. I believe that it should appear in the article. Mjroots ( talk) 10:49, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
In this edit I reverted a change which would have characterized this conflict as a civil war. I fumble-fingered saving that edit and it has only a partial edit summary. Having come to the talk page to explain, I'll be more verbose than I would have been in an edit summary.
A civil war is a war between organized groups within a single nation state. It was not the intent of the 1954 Geneva Accords to partition Vietnam into separate countries, but that was the de-facto effect. North and South Vietnam were separately recognized in various countries as separate governments. There may be room for argument about whether such recognitions made either or both governments legitimate sovereign states, but I doubt that there is much support in reliable sources for the assertion that the Second Indochina War was a civil war. An assertion to this effect should to cite supporting sources. If such a cite-supported assertion is made, WP:DUE and WP:BALANCE probably come into play. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:58, 19 December 2009 (UTC)
In the 5th paragraph in the opening section there is "The war exacted a huge human cost in terms of fatalities (See: Vietnam War casualties), including 3 to 4 million Vietnamese from both sides, 1.5 to 2 million Laotians and Cambodians, and 58,159 U.S. soldiers" - why is it necessary to state there that 58,159 American soldiers were killed? How does that compare in any way to the 3-4 million Vietnamese and 2 million Laotians and Cambodians? If you're going to include a figure there then maybe you could give the number of deaths for all other countries rather than continuing with yet another Americanization of a Wikipedia article.-- Xania talk 22:38, 5 January 2010 (UTC)
I concur with Xania and Slatersteven in questioning why the US military casualties are equated with the colossal civilian casualties in Vietnam and Cambodia. Izzedine 11:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
I think whomever made the most recent edit concerning the Tet Offensive has confused the language. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that when the offensive is spoken of as a victory or failure depends on whether we are talking about the US or NV. I think the language of the paragraph needs to be examined and discussed before altering words that shift the meaning of the paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Prussian725 ( talk • contribs) 20:31, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
Like many other war articles, I suppose we use this Image:VietnamMural.jpg back to the infobox to replace the current one. 71.107.193.35 ( talk) 22:37, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
The Article states that Conscription was RE-introduced in Australia. I was fairly certain that conscription has never been active in Australia, it was proposed during WW1 but the referenda was defeated twice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.87.185 ( talk) 13:56, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
{{editsemiprotected}} I have been raised as an Vietnamese Tradition. I need to add on more details to add to an exciting story.
MisterVietnam ( talk) 22:23, 13 April 2010 (UTC) The edit i want is page Vietnam War
Group patrol engaged in combat operations in Thoi Binh District, An Xuyen Province, Republic of Vietnam on 29 October 1963, Captain Versace and the CIDG assault force were caught in an ambush from intense mortar, automatic weapons, and small arms f ire from elements of a reinforced enemy Main Force battalion. As the battle raged, Captain Versace fought valiantly and encouraged his CIDG patrol to return fire against overwhelming enemy forces. He provided covering fire from an exposed position to enable friendly forces to withdraw from the killing zone when it was apparent that their position would be overrun, and was severely wounded in the knee and back from automatic weapons fire and shrapnel. He stubbornly resisted capture with the last full measure of his strength and ammunition. Taken prisoner by the Viet Cong, he demonstrated exceptional leadership and resolute adherence to the tenets of the Code of Conduct from the time he entered into a prisoner of war status. Captain Versace assumed command of his fellow American prisoners, and despite being kept locked in irons in an isolation box, raised their morale by singing messages to popular songs of the day, and leaving inspiring messages at the latrine. Within three weeks of captivity, and despite the severity of his untreated wounds, he attempted the first of four escape attempts by dragging himself on his hands and knees out of the camp through dense swamp and forbidding vegetation to freedom. Crawling at a very slow pace due to his weakened condition, the guards quickly discovered him outside the camp and recaptured him. Captain Versace scorned the enemy's exhaustive interrogation and indoctrination efforts, and inspired his fellow prisoners to resist to the best of their ability. When he used his Vietnamese language skills to protest improper treatment of the American prisoners by the guards, he was put into leg irons and gagged to keep his protestations out of earshot of the other American prisoners in the camp. The last time that any of his fellow prisoners heard from him, Captain Versace was singing God Bless America at the top of his voice from his isolation box. Unable to break his indomitable will, his faith in God, and his trust in the United States of America and his fellow prisoners, Captain Versace was executed by the Viet Cong on 26 September 1965. Captain Versace's extraordinary heroism, self-sacrifice, and personal bravery involving conspicuous risk of life above and beyond the call of duty were in keeping with the highest traditions of the United States Army, and reflect great credit to himself and the U.S. Armed Forces —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.51.213.12 ( talk) 23:44, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
Call me stupid (Many do), but wouldn't it be a nice idea if somewhere in this article there were the reasons given at the time for them fighting the war, from each side? I even had a quick look through wikiquote, but couldn't find any clear, unambiguous reason for why the sides were fighting. -OOPSIE- ( talk) 02:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
In a sence it was a nationalist conflict. In a sence an ideological one.[[ Slatersteven ( talk) 15:12, 9 June 2009 (UTC)]]
You know, though, there was more to it than that. This was fallout from World War I; unresolved metastatic issues of imperialism and matters of economics. The communist issues were, in some views, an accelerant. As you'd imagine, there are some who disagree with this idea. There are several theories of why the war began and, it must be noted, there are disagreements as to when exactly it began. This should be illustrated at the beginning of the article. As it stands now one would think it is all very obvious and there are no real historical disagreements or ambiguities. The first part of the article is, I think, the worst part and needs serious revising. Gingermint ( talk) 22:31, 27 October 2009 (UTC)