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This article was edited to make it more accurate and encyclopedic. Varsha Daswani 02:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The entry of Victory Christian Fellowship was reverted back to changes made on January 31, 2007, including an explanation of the connection between Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha Campus Ministries, with two third party sources.
Should you wish to discuss how to further improve the entry, please post your comments on this talk page rather than reverting the whole entry without including verifiable third party sources.
The external links to Maranatha were also removed for the following reasons:
Since Wikipedia is a community, we hope we can use the talk page in reaching a concensus to create a great encyclopedic article. Varsha Daswani 04:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The reason for the revert was your wholesale deletion of the fact that the inital outreach was a Maranatha outreach. And this 2 nd revert is because your rewrite is much like a VCF broichure and not encyclopedic at all. Osakadan 15:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Osakadan seems to be vandalizing the Victory Christian Fellowship entry by inputting information not relevant to the page. None of his entries improve on the article. It also slants the topic towards Every Nation, not focus it on Victory Christian Fellowship. Please cite more reliable third-party verifiable sources before making other edits to this entry. Please also discuss your changes on this page. Iskongbayan 09:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
This is not vandalization by any means. VCF was a major part Of Maranatha, and Maranatha was indeed controversial. Ever since I first included Maranatha in the page, VCF began deleting the reference as they try to downplay it.
VCF is also a major part of Every Nation and no discussion on VCF is complete with discussion about Every Nation. In fact, the head of VCF is a major player in Every Nation.
Perhaps you should call for mediation or list specific passages here that seem biased here and we can work on a compromise together. Osakadan 10:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Victory Christian Fellowship was definitely a part of Maranatha, which is why it is included in the revision I have made on this entry. However, Maranatha was dissolved in 1989, and Victory Christian Fellowship exists independent of that. The entry of Victory links to Maranatha, which is relevant, but the other information, links, and references are irrelevant to the page.
Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of Every Nation, which is why the connection is explained in this revision. However, the entry of Victory should talk about Victory specifically, not go in detail about Every Nation--which should be done on the Every Nation page. The Victory entry should give the reader an encyclopedic, reliable, verifiable, neutral, and objective view of what Victory Christian Fellowship is.
The anonymous, unverifiable, and dubious links have also been removed once again. Include in this page information relevant to Victory Christian Fellowship, and let other information on Every Nation or Maranatha be in their own pages.
I hope we can achieve a concensus for this entry as well. Varsha Daswani 13:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the references to Maranatha and EN are minor. As they are such a large part of the history of VCF, they certainly warrant more than having their names mentioned in the article?
In 1984, Steve Murrell, Rice Broocks and their team of sixty-five students went to Manila for one month of outreach and evangelism. The initial outreach led to a congregation of 150 primarily college students, with expansion to more sites in Manila, and around the country.[3] This was under the auspices of the controversial group, Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). Under the leadership of Bob Weiner, MCM's mission was to bring students to know Christ, training a new generation of leaders. Such were their tactics that they were banned from a number of university campuses across the world. [4][5]
What are your objections to this paragraph? It is fact that Maranatha were controversial. It is fact they were banned from at least 3 university campuses. VCF cannot simple disavow their association to these controversies. Osakadan 13:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Osakadan, you're saying that Maranatha is a large part of Victory Christian Fellowship. What's your proof for this? I'm new on wikipedia, but I think you're violating some of the pillars and content policies of Wikipedia. No original research is one such policy. Please cite credible sources to your contributions to this page. I saw on your talk page that the Victory Christian Fellowship entry is not the only one you have been trying to slant. You seem to have an agenda against Every Nation, or maybe against Victory Christian Fellowship. Please explain why this is. Your entries reflect a bias, which goes against Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Thank you. Hoping to hear from you on this. Iskongbayan 08:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Just an VCF person. It is a fact that even they do not deny. VCF was established from an "outreach" of MCM. IT existed as the Philipines branch of MCM until they disbabded in 1989.
You cannot just delete a history section. You can question things but yu cannot just delete a section outright.
Declasre your interests. Are you part of VCF? Osakadan 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the only one needing to declare interests here right now is you, Osakadan. I'm not the only person on W who sees your posts on this entry as acts of vandalism, slanting the article to your specific bias, and it is obvious you're willing to break W rules to do so. What's your agenda in all of this? Other people from your previous posts (not just on this one) have been trying to point out errors in your corrections. Please discuss your potential edits here first before reverting the article again to the version you're trying to espouse. Iskongbayan 02:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
What is your source for saying that Victory Christian Fellowship was a "major part" of Maranatha? These are weasel words and have therefore been removed from the entry.
The history includes the connection of Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha, as well as Victory and Every Nation. Other information on either of these two organizations does not belong in this entry.
This entry was made more encyclopedic to reflect without bias what Victory Christian Fellowship is. Varsha Daswani 04:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to thank Seraphimblade for pointing out that wikipedia entries should not sound like an advertisement. However, I think the vision statement is essential in this article to best define Victory Christian Fellowship. I have attached a reference from their website where the same statement could be found. Chickywiki 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Some edits and additional information tend to lean on one side too much. It makes the article look like an expose of sorts and, I believe, is far from Wikipedia's goal to maintain encyclopedic entries. Concerned parties might want to consider other media to express this information in a proper manner. Also, please don't forget to post your reasons for major edits on this article to keep everyone on the same page. Chickywiki 04:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
While the cited sources do speak of this "Marantha" group, I see no mention in either of a Victory Christian Fellowship. Reliable sources would be necessary which specifically speak to a link between the two groups, or the information cannot be included. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree to this. Should the Maranatha - Victory Christian Fellowship link be inputed again, the sources should be reputable and this portion should be explained in NPOV. Chickywiki 04:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks like this page is currently in a revert war, and the people who keep reverting it to a slanted article that's not about Victory Christian Fellowship don't even bother to discuss their views on this page, nor provide credible sources for their edits. Instead they provide content not relevant to the topic (Victory Christian Fellowship, Osakadan, not Maranatha or something about To Reach and to Rule). Wikipedia is not the place to air conspiracy theories. Please stop reverting without giving your reasons. Please cite more credible sources. And please follow Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you. Iskongbayan 14:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
W is a place for verifiable, NPOV articles--please keep it that way. Please also explain your points for discussion here before making changes in the entry. Varsha Daswani 00:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Fact 1 - VCF was established under the auspices of Maranatha.
Fact 2 - Maranatha was a controversial group. And as the establisher of VCF deserves more than a psaaing comment.
Fact 3 - Steve Murrell is both senior pastor of VCF and overall president of Ever Nation. With this in mind, again, more than a passing mention is warranted.
Osakadan 04:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
If that line of thinking was to be followed strictly, none of the page should be here as nothing i verifiable outside of VCF's own webpage. Osakadan 04:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the "Marantha" information, as the cited sources are unreliable, and even if they were, mention no link between the "Marantha" organization and this subject. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Fact 1 - Murrell is also present of the parent organization Every Nation. - You removed this.
Fact 2 - A "prophet" of the parent organization is quoted giving the reason of their name change. This is very relevant to the VCF page. You removed this.
The quoted sources about maranatha are not unreliable. They are links to newpaper articles.
If you are going to delete reference to Maranatha you also need to delete all reference to self-sourced material. You cannot be selective.
That an article no longer exists online does not invalidate it as a source. This is exactly the same as quoting a book that is out of publication, or not available in your local library. Osakadan 08:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The links were actually to rickross, a repository for articles on cults. It is current offline due to server problems.
RickRoss.com is temporarily unavailable Thank you for visiting the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI), which is one of the largest databases about destructive cults, controversial groups and movements available through the Internet.
RI is a nonprofit New Jersey corporation that has been tax-exempted as a educational charity by the United States Internal Revenue Service and serves information to the general public at no charge.
RI can be contacted by calling (201) 434-9234 or by emailing ross.institute@gmail.com
Right now the site is closed for installation on new network servers with a much higher capacity to meet the needs of the more than 20,000 individual visitors that come to the site each day. Osakadan 08:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The association between Marantha and Victory Christian is now sourced by a source which explicitly states that VCF started out as part of Marantha. Chickywiki, what part do you consider to be POV? Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
You said ""After all, Victory was birthed through Maranatha but it has long cut its association with the group (This point is often overlooked in this article, focusing only on Victory’s previous link to Maranatha but not giving the fact that it’s NOT ANYMORE LINKED to Maranatha of equal importance. Those who insist that Victory is still equivalent to Maranatha should prove this point through reliable sources, else it’s just WK: OR""
Actually, Victory didn't cut their links with Maranatha. The links disappeared when Maranatha was internationally dissolved and that is stated clearly in the article. No one is stating that VCF is now equivalent to MCM. Where has that been written?
And why do you keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also president of EN? It is very relevant. If anyone is vandalizing anything, it is you an EN flunky. Osakadan 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
And why do you keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also president of EN? It is very relevant. If anyone is vandalizing anything, it is you an EN flunky. Osakadan 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added the other organizations that Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of: the Philippine Missions Association and the Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches, aside from Every Nation Churches and Ministries. Varsha Daswani 09:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Fact 1 - Maranatha was the group that established VCF and as such deserves more than a one sentence description. Fact 2 - It is a fact recognized by mainstream press that Maranatha was conttroversial. It is also fact that VCF did not leave Maranatha as such but that this happened when Maranatha was dissolved.At no point did VCF disavow Maranatha teachings but stuck around until the end. Fact 3 - Steve Murrell is both senior pastor of VCF and overall president of Every Nation. But you keep deleting this. And as a parent organization, the page deserves more than a one sentence reference to Every Nation. Fact 4 - A "prophet" of the parent organization is quoted giving the reason of their name change. This is very relevant to the VCF page. You removed this. Or are you denying that this was said? You should be proud if you believe it. Osakadan 08:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Would you like to declare your interest as a VCF staff member Varsha? Osakadan 08:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think taking things on a personal level will help us come up with an unbiased, encyclopedic entry for Victory Christian Fellowship. As far as I have checked on the sources provided by Varsha Daswani, they are all valid and reputable third party sources. If there is a point you would want to make, backing it up with reliable sources will be most effective. Your explanation above is taken into account, but as repeatedly stated in this discussion page, we need to place specific information strategically - where they should belong. I believe links to Every Nation and other associations mentioned in the article are sufficient to support their link to Victory.How do you view this? I would like to know your opinion on this. Thank you. Chickywiki 08:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to be rude but I am presuming you are a not a native speaker of English and do not understand the intricacies of the English language. While "claim" may be ladden with negative connotations in your mind, I suggest you find a good dictionary and study the true meaning. I then suggest that you the study wiki rule on self-published resources.
And are you ready to declare you interest as VCF staff yet?
Osakadan 07:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good but do notice that I used a number of words besides claims. Hate repeating such things.
Additionally, I should note that I am not here to attack VCF. My desire is to state the complete truth and make materials available that were kept to themselves by VCF leaders until wikipedia and factnet came along. Though not completely convinced, I applaud them for disowning MCM beliefs. The problem is that in a relatively young organization, that material has never been readily available to new members. They deserve full disclosure.
Other concerns include:
Why do EN people keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also head of the parent organization? Very relevant
Why do they feel the need to distance themselves from their prophets own words about God giving them a new name? Are they trying to distance themselves? It is indeed relevant to anyone thinking to join VCF. Many churches believe such things. It is up to the people to decide if they agree with such things. Providing that information here gives such opportunity. Osakadan 08:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments." [1] All sources I have included are reliable and published, not expressing my own opinions. I know what the connotations of your choice of words, Osakadan. And what is the relevance of my being a VCF member? Does that make a difference if I want to make this a verifiable, neutral [2] entry on Wikipedia? It is also inaccurate to use VCF and EN interchangeably. They are two separate organizations, as VCF is a member of EN, but operates independently under it. So as I have mentioned before, info on EN should be on the EN page, not VCF. Varsha Daswani 14:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
And further to the use of claim. Some definitions.
You seek to mislead people here Varsha. My changes are not original thought but referenced statements. And you know that. And are you attempting to be disengious? We both know that you are, or have been, more than a VCF member. Declare your interest as a staff member! And you know I have not used VCF and EN interchangeably. They may well operate independently but we both know that Murrell is head of both organizations and this is very relevant to this article.
Your claim to want to make this article npov is laughable. Your first ever posting was to remove all reference to Maranatha. Osakadan 17:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Varsha Daswani, Iskongbayan, Chickywiki, Osakadan, Pink collar girl, please stop by the EN Talk Page. Seraphimblade will be mediating the EN article and made mention of the Victory Christian Fellowhip page. Please indicate your comments or thoughts on this on the EN Talk Page. Thanks. Thelma Bowlen Talk 06:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The image File:Every Nation.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
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Are there any reliable sources regarding this "church" being a cult/scam? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 07:16, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
![]() | This article was nominated for deletion on March 10, 2007. The result of the discussion was nomination withdrawn. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
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This article was edited to make it more accurate and encyclopedic. Varsha Daswani 02:44, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The entry of Victory Christian Fellowship was reverted back to changes made on January 31, 2007, including an explanation of the connection between Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha Campus Ministries, with two third party sources.
Should you wish to discuss how to further improve the entry, please post your comments on this talk page rather than reverting the whole entry without including verifiable third party sources.
The external links to Maranatha were also removed for the following reasons:
Since Wikipedia is a community, we hope we can use the talk page in reaching a concensus to create a great encyclopedic article. Varsha Daswani 04:21, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
The reason for the revert was your wholesale deletion of the fact that the inital outreach was a Maranatha outreach. And this 2 nd revert is because your rewrite is much like a VCF broichure and not encyclopedic at all. Osakadan 15:37, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Osakadan seems to be vandalizing the Victory Christian Fellowship entry by inputting information not relevant to the page. None of his entries improve on the article. It also slants the topic towards Every Nation, not focus it on Victory Christian Fellowship. Please cite more reliable third-party verifiable sources before making other edits to this entry. Please also discuss your changes on this page. Iskongbayan 09:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
This is not vandalization by any means. VCF was a major part Of Maranatha, and Maranatha was indeed controversial. Ever since I first included Maranatha in the page, VCF began deleting the reference as they try to downplay it.
VCF is also a major part of Every Nation and no discussion on VCF is complete with discussion about Every Nation. In fact, the head of VCF is a major player in Every Nation.
Perhaps you should call for mediation or list specific passages here that seem biased here and we can work on a compromise together. Osakadan 10:22, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Victory Christian Fellowship was definitely a part of Maranatha, which is why it is included in the revision I have made on this entry. However, Maranatha was dissolved in 1989, and Victory Christian Fellowship exists independent of that. The entry of Victory links to Maranatha, which is relevant, but the other information, links, and references are irrelevant to the page.
Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of Every Nation, which is why the connection is explained in this revision. However, the entry of Victory should talk about Victory specifically, not go in detail about Every Nation--which should be done on the Every Nation page. The Victory entry should give the reader an encyclopedic, reliable, verifiable, neutral, and objective view of what Victory Christian Fellowship is.
The anonymous, unverifiable, and dubious links have also been removed once again. Include in this page information relevant to Victory Christian Fellowship, and let other information on Every Nation or Maranatha be in their own pages.
I hope we can achieve a concensus for this entry as well. Varsha Daswani 13:39, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the references to Maranatha and EN are minor. As they are such a large part of the history of VCF, they certainly warrant more than having their names mentioned in the article?
In 1984, Steve Murrell, Rice Broocks and their team of sixty-five students went to Manila for one month of outreach and evangelism. The initial outreach led to a congregation of 150 primarily college students, with expansion to more sites in Manila, and around the country.[3] This was under the auspices of the controversial group, Maranatha Campus Ministries (MCM). Under the leadership of Bob Weiner, MCM's mission was to bring students to know Christ, training a new generation of leaders. Such were their tactics that they were banned from a number of university campuses across the world. [4][5]
What are your objections to this paragraph? It is fact that Maranatha were controversial. It is fact they were banned from at least 3 university campuses. VCF cannot simple disavow their association to these controversies. Osakadan 13:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Osakadan, you're saying that Maranatha is a large part of Victory Christian Fellowship. What's your proof for this? I'm new on wikipedia, but I think you're violating some of the pillars and content policies of Wikipedia. No original research is one such policy. Please cite credible sources to your contributions to this page. I saw on your talk page that the Victory Christian Fellowship entry is not the only one you have been trying to slant. You seem to have an agenda against Every Nation, or maybe against Victory Christian Fellowship. Please explain why this is. Your entries reflect a bias, which goes against Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Thank you. Hoping to hear from you on this. Iskongbayan 08:54, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Just an VCF person. It is a fact that even they do not deny. VCF was established from an "outreach" of MCM. IT existed as the Philipines branch of MCM until they disbabded in 1989.
You cannot just delete a history section. You can question things but yu cannot just delete a section outright.
Declasre your interests. Are you part of VCF? Osakadan 15:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the only one needing to declare interests here right now is you, Osakadan. I'm not the only person on W who sees your posts on this entry as acts of vandalism, slanting the article to your specific bias, and it is obvious you're willing to break W rules to do so. What's your agenda in all of this? Other people from your previous posts (not just on this one) have been trying to point out errors in your corrections. Please discuss your potential edits here first before reverting the article again to the version you're trying to espouse. Iskongbayan 02:57, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
What is your source for saying that Victory Christian Fellowship was a "major part" of Maranatha? These are weasel words and have therefore been removed from the entry.
The history includes the connection of Victory Christian Fellowship and Maranatha, as well as Victory and Every Nation. Other information on either of these two organizations does not belong in this entry.
This entry was made more encyclopedic to reflect without bias what Victory Christian Fellowship is. Varsha Daswani 04:14, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to thank Seraphimblade for pointing out that wikipedia entries should not sound like an advertisement. However, I think the vision statement is essential in this article to best define Victory Christian Fellowship. I have attached a reference from their website where the same statement could be found. Chickywiki 03:26, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Some edits and additional information tend to lean on one side too much. It makes the article look like an expose of sorts and, I believe, is far from Wikipedia's goal to maintain encyclopedic entries. Concerned parties might want to consider other media to express this information in a proper manner. Also, please don't forget to post your reasons for major edits on this article to keep everyone on the same page. Chickywiki 04:29, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
While the cited sources do speak of this "Marantha" group, I see no mention in either of a Victory Christian Fellowship. Reliable sources would be necessary which specifically speak to a link between the two groups, or the information cannot be included. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:21, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree to this. Should the Maranatha - Victory Christian Fellowship link be inputed again, the sources should be reputable and this portion should be explained in NPOV. Chickywiki 04:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
It looks like this page is currently in a revert war, and the people who keep reverting it to a slanted article that's not about Victory Christian Fellowship don't even bother to discuss their views on this page, nor provide credible sources for their edits. Instead they provide content not relevant to the topic (Victory Christian Fellowship, Osakadan, not Maranatha or something about To Reach and to Rule). Wikipedia is not the place to air conspiracy theories. Please stop reverting without giving your reasons. Please cite more credible sources. And please follow Wikipedia guidelines. Thank you. Iskongbayan 14:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
W is a place for verifiable, NPOV articles--please keep it that way. Please also explain your points for discussion here before making changes in the entry. Varsha Daswani 00:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
Fact 1 - VCF was established under the auspices of Maranatha.
Fact 2 - Maranatha was a controversial group. And as the establisher of VCF deserves more than a psaaing comment.
Fact 3 - Steve Murrell is both senior pastor of VCF and overall president of Ever Nation. With this in mind, again, more than a passing mention is warranted.
Osakadan 04:00, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
If that line of thinking was to be followed strictly, none of the page should be here as nothing i verifiable outside of VCF's own webpage. Osakadan 04:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the "Marantha" information, as the cited sources are unreliable, and even if they were, mention no link between the "Marantha" organization and this subject. Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 07:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
Fact 1 - Murrell is also present of the parent organization Every Nation. - You removed this.
Fact 2 - A "prophet" of the parent organization is quoted giving the reason of their name change. This is very relevant to the VCF page. You removed this.
The quoted sources about maranatha are not unreliable. They are links to newpaper articles.
If you are going to delete reference to Maranatha you also need to delete all reference to self-sourced material. You cannot be selective.
That an article no longer exists online does not invalidate it as a source. This is exactly the same as quoting a book that is out of publication, or not available in your local library. Osakadan 08:24, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The links were actually to rickross, a repository for articles on cults. It is current offline due to server problems.
RickRoss.com is temporarily unavailable Thank you for visiting the Ross Institute of New Jersey (RI), which is one of the largest databases about destructive cults, controversial groups and movements available through the Internet.
RI is a nonprofit New Jersey corporation that has been tax-exempted as a educational charity by the United States Internal Revenue Service and serves information to the general public at no charge.
RI can be contacted by calling (201) 434-9234 or by emailing ross.institute@gmail.com
Right now the site is closed for installation on new network servers with a much higher capacity to meet the needs of the more than 20,000 individual visitors that come to the site each day. Osakadan 08:39, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The association between Marantha and Victory Christian is now sourced by a source which explicitly states that VCF started out as part of Marantha. Chickywiki, what part do you consider to be POV? Seraphimblade Talk to me Please review me! 03:11, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
You said ""After all, Victory was birthed through Maranatha but it has long cut its association with the group (This point is often overlooked in this article, focusing only on Victory’s previous link to Maranatha but not giving the fact that it’s NOT ANYMORE LINKED to Maranatha of equal importance. Those who insist that Victory is still equivalent to Maranatha should prove this point through reliable sources, else it’s just WK: OR""
Actually, Victory didn't cut their links with Maranatha. The links disappeared when Maranatha was internationally dissolved and that is stated clearly in the article. No one is stating that VCF is now equivalent to MCM. Where has that been written?
And why do you keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also president of EN? It is very relevant. If anyone is vandalizing anything, it is you an EN flunky. Osakadan 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
And why do you keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also president of EN? It is very relevant. If anyone is vandalizing anything, it is you an EN flunky. Osakadan 12:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I have added the other organizations that Victory Christian Fellowship is a member of: the Philippine Missions Association and the Philippine Council of Evangelical Churches, aside from Every Nation Churches and Ministries. Varsha Daswani 09:54, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Fact 1 - Maranatha was the group that established VCF and as such deserves more than a one sentence description. Fact 2 - It is a fact recognized by mainstream press that Maranatha was conttroversial. It is also fact that VCF did not leave Maranatha as such but that this happened when Maranatha was dissolved.At no point did VCF disavow Maranatha teachings but stuck around until the end. Fact 3 - Steve Murrell is both senior pastor of VCF and overall president of Every Nation. But you keep deleting this. And as a parent organization, the page deserves more than a one sentence reference to Every Nation. Fact 4 - A "prophet" of the parent organization is quoted giving the reason of their name change. This is very relevant to the VCF page. You removed this. Or are you denying that this was said? You should be proud if you believe it. Osakadan 08:28, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Would you like to declare your interest as a VCF staff member Varsha? Osakadan 08:13, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't think taking things on a personal level will help us come up with an unbiased, encyclopedic entry for Victory Christian Fellowship. As far as I have checked on the sources provided by Varsha Daswani, they are all valid and reputable third party sources. If there is a point you would want to make, backing it up with reliable sources will be most effective. Your explanation above is taken into account, but as repeatedly stated in this discussion page, we need to place specific information strategically - where they should belong. I believe links to Every Nation and other associations mentioned in the article are sufficient to support their link to Victory.How do you view this? I would like to know your opinion on this. Thank you. Chickywiki 08:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Not to be rude but I am presuming you are a not a native speaker of English and do not understand the intricacies of the English language. While "claim" may be ladden with negative connotations in your mind, I suggest you find a good dictionary and study the true meaning. I then suggest that you the study wiki rule on self-published resources.
And are you ready to declare you interest as VCF staff yet?
Osakadan 07:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good but do notice that I used a number of words besides claims. Hate repeating such things.
Additionally, I should note that I am not here to attack VCF. My desire is to state the complete truth and make materials available that were kept to themselves by VCF leaders until wikipedia and factnet came along. Though not completely convinced, I applaud them for disowning MCM beliefs. The problem is that in a relatively young organization, that material has never been readily available to new members. They deserve full disclosure.
Other concerns include:
Why do EN people keep deleting the fact that Murrell is also head of the parent organization? Very relevant
Why do they feel the need to distance themselves from their prophets own words about God giving them a new name? Are they trying to distance themselves? It is indeed relevant to anyone thinking to join VCF. Many churches believe such things. It is up to the people to decide if they agree with such things. Providing that information here gives such opportunity. Osakadan 08:36, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
"Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a publisher of original thought. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments." [1] All sources I have included are reliable and published, not expressing my own opinions. I know what the connotations of your choice of words, Osakadan. And what is the relevance of my being a VCF member? Does that make a difference if I want to make this a verifiable, neutral [2] entry on Wikipedia? It is also inaccurate to use VCF and EN interchangeably. They are two separate organizations, as VCF is a member of EN, but operates independently under it. So as I have mentioned before, info on EN should be on the EN page, not VCF. Varsha Daswani 14:09, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
And further to the use of claim. Some definitions.
You seek to mislead people here Varsha. My changes are not original thought but referenced statements. And you know that. And are you attempting to be disengious? We both know that you are, or have been, more than a VCF member. Declare your interest as a staff member! And you know I have not used VCF and EN interchangeably. They may well operate independently but we both know that Murrell is head of both organizations and this is very relevant to this article.
Your claim to want to make this article npov is laughable. Your first ever posting was to remove all reference to Maranatha. Osakadan 17:22, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Varsha Daswani, Iskongbayan, Chickywiki, Osakadan, Pink collar girl, please stop by the EN Talk Page. Seraphimblade will be mediating the EN article and made mention of the Victory Christian Fellowhip page. Please indicate your comments or thoughts on this on the EN Talk Page. Thanks. Thelma Bowlen Talk 06:45, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
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Are there any reliable sources regarding this "church" being a cult/scam? Spacecowboy420 ( talk) 07:16, 16 May 2016 (UTC)