This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There is a page named
Heir Presumptive
yet the link here to
heir presumptive
does not go to it.
However, should Heir Presumptive be capitalized? I have not capitalized it here pending resolution of this point.
Songwriter 17:43 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Aren't there several Princesses named Victoria? RickK 19:27 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be at Victoria, Princess Royal? -- Jiang 22:00 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I have moved it to Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom to follow royal naming conventiions. I would love to use the PR title but as there are a number of PRs with the same name and they lack ordinals to distinguish between them, using [[name, Princess Royal]] is too problematic and so should be reserved for the current Princess Royal. It is a problem that was discussed at length. Using the basic royal title also matches general naming conventions in terms of reverting dead royal brides to their maiden title (Catherine of Aragon, etc). The convention agreed was that unless a royal had a peerage, they would be entered as Princess of whatever state they came from (or linked to title if relevant, in this case the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. (Hence Princess Margaret of the United Kingdom, Prince William of Wales, Princess Beatrice of York, etc.) BTW I have also set up a redirect from her marital title which also existed. FearÉIREANN 22:43 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There were two princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (excluding Queen Victoria before her ascension) who were officially known as "Victoria": (1) Victoria, Princess Royal and later Empress Friedrich (1842-1901), the eldest daughter of Victoria of the United Kingdom; and (2) Princess Victoria (1868-1935), the unmarried second daugther of Edward VII of the United Kingdom. I am considering contributing an article on the second Princess Victoria (nicknamed "Toria"). However, if I used the naming convention Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom it would create a conflict with the existing article dealing with Victoria, Princess Royal. Do you have any suggestions? Also, since 4 Jul 2003, I have added the article Louise, Princess Royal and Duchess of Fife and expanded the existing article Mary, Princess Royal.
Jeff 2:05 28 Sept 2003 (UTC)
To solve the problem I noted above, I renamed the article Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom as Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick. I then created a separate article for Princess Victoria Alexandra Olga Mary(1868-1935), the daughter of Edward VII, using the title Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom.
Jeff 10:38 29 Sept 2003 (UTC)
To use Princess Royal as her only distinguisher is an obvious
anglocentric decision. Basically generic titles cannot in that way reserved to one country. She should be at her pre-marital location "firstname of countryshewasprincessof". I object strongly to this sort of use of title which causes more difficukties than solves anything.
And, to repeat Princess twice in the heading is something unspeakable - the heading does not need it even once.
217.140.193.123 3 July 2005 20:50 (UTC)
There is now a discussion (and possibly a poll) ongoing regarding the location of the article itself, see
Talk:Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick. I would hope that any moves of talkpages are not executed before the location of the article itself finds its ultimate location.
217.140.193.123 18:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC) PS: the ultimate location might be a bin, mightn't it :)
I added back in the links to Victoria's children: Sigismund, Waldemar and Sophie. Prsgoddess187 15:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This article should not be located in this sort of hybrid name which besides contains too much titulary (i.e Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick). 217.140.193.123 19:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
As a result of talks below a (preliminary) short list of choices was developed, now proposed for the vote. This set of most likely choices will be added to the vote proposal at WP:RM.
This is an Approval vote as suggested by WP:RM (i.e. striving for at least 60% consensus on an option before a "move" to that option is operated). See Wikipedia:How_to_hold_a_consensus_vote#Third_choice:_Approval_voting for further guidance if not accustomed.
Here are the options. Vote for as many as you want. The option with the most votes is the consensus.
Allow me to add a new note as well. I looked at the German language version. It simply says "Kaiserin Victoria" so I would say, this whole Empress Frederick or Princess Victoria business would be confusing. I would propose:
so there can be no confusion with any other Victorias.
How about simple
In total 4 persons voted (Arrigo, Gryffindor, Francis, Septentrionalis). The option with the highest number of votes (2 votes, Gryffindor and Septentrionalis) supported a move to Empress Victoria of Germany, summary:
As it seems unlikely that this discussion will result in a clear consensus anywhere in the foreseeable future, keeping it this listed on WP:RM for prolonged voting seems not advised, so I implement the present NO MOVE vote result, and remove the listing of the request from WP:RM, helping out with the backlog there. -- Francis Schonken 08:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Comments for the voting
"Empress Frederick" and "Empress Frederick of Germany" are untenable choices, as they do not even include her own name. To me, it is unthinkable to put a biographical article about a female under the heading that says only her husband's name. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I oppose strongly the use of "Princess Royal" as her only disambiguator. In my opinion, that continues a certain trend of "political" anglocentrism here, pushing British-view POV to material which is supposed to be international and NPOV. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC) P.S. Anyway, she certainly was not known as "Princess Royal" during the biggest part of her life. The idea of consort naming is not to endorse girlhood titulary to all eternity, but to disambiguate between consorts of the same first name by using preferentially a territorial designation. As deceased monarchical consort, she should thus not have any titulary in her heading (if any titulary were to used it should be her highest title, i.e Empress, but all titularies are against NC). I repeat: no titulary. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
She actually was not "Empress of Germany", she was German Empress. The first-mentioned formulation obviously is from someone who does not even know the facts of the case. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Victoria Adelaide of the United Kingdom
Victoria, Empress Frederick - included in short list for vote
Victoria of the United Kingdom (Vicky)
Victoria of the United Kingdom (1840-1901)
Victoria, Princess Royal - included in short list for vote
Princess Victoria, Princess Royal
The chief problem, as always, lies of course in the fact that there have been at least four individuals with some stake to the simple and nice name Victoria of the United Kingdom. Some disambiguation is thus needed. The three worthy persons were Queen Victoria, who is now located at Victoria of the United Kingdom, her eldest daughter Vicky, the German empress, who could be at Victoria Adelaide of the United Kingdom and the second granddaughter of the first-mentioned queen, Princess Toria, who currently is located at Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom. Additionally, another granddaughter could also have a stake, but fortunately she can be located at Princess Victoria of Edinburgh (and I am certainly not suggesting her move at this time). This mess has made me think again and again that we possibly should not have a prohibition against using the ordinal ("I") of monarchs who were the only so-named in their monarchies, as the first Victoria could then be at Victoria I of the United Kingdom which at least hints that she was not only a princess or a consort.... Arrigo 09:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
My opinion: Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick as the current heading of the article is a horrible abomination, it is against all naming conventions. It has two epithets which were never used simultaneously. It defines her with her husband's name, which IMO is almost always a bad way. It has as many as two titularies in a case where a heading is possible (and recommended by NC) without even one titulary - titularies in headings taste somewhat unencyclopedic, and two such in one heading could be regarded as ridiculous sycophancy by our some readers, which tends to make this encyclopedia seem ridiculous. It has "Princess Royal" as one epithet, although that sort of use can be regarded as anglocentric POV by several. Arrigo 09:01, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I would at this stage prefer Victoria Adelaide of the United Kingdom as it at least is disambiguated and follows the same idea that has created her niece's article at Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom. Let's have a thorough discussion. Arrigo 09:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm wary of all these votes triggered without the flimsiest evidence of prior research to sort out the most likely alternative(s), nor any attempt to create consensus prior to triggering a vote.
This is what I found:
Clarification by Google test in this case near to impossible, while so many pages telling something about Vicky, also mention Queen Victoria (and mention attributes like "of England", "of Germany" and the like) - so there appears no reliable way to separate the one from the other by web search engine.
The only thing I learnt from the google test is that "Adelaide" is, as far as I can see, never the "only" mentioned middle name for Vicky: either at least also her second middle name "Mary" is mentioned, but seemingly even more often the full set, including her 3rd middle name "Louize" is mentioned (that is, if any of the middle names is mentioned).
On the other hand, I found this list of books about (or partly by in the case of letters) Vicky:
-> I don't know about how correct/exhaustive this list is, so feel free to complete/check it, and inform your fellow wikipedians.
-> Apart from "Other Victoria" and "Daughter of..." which are too ambiguous for a wikipedia page title on a person, and the "Wife of..." and "Mother of ..." that wikipedia likewise tries to avoid in page names:
-> Taken together it seems to me that:
For the supporters of the middle name(s), there's still Britannica, 1984 printed edition listing her under Victoria Adelaide Mary Louize
On-line encyclopedias: I found:
None of the English encyclop(a)edias appear to be mentioning "Empress Frederick" in the title (and even only one mentions "Empress" at all). Noneteless all mention "Victoria" in the article title; so "Victoria" seems sort of unavoidable too.
Victoria, Empress Frederick appears the most likely choice to me at this point. Try and convince me otherwise, I would say! -- Francis Schonken 16:04, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
This is indeed a choice between bad and worse. And those of us who knew her in advance, were aware of that - it is no surprise to those who are experts in royalty, genealogy etc (thus, anyone who shows being surprised, demonstrates his/her unfamiliarity with the substance in these questions). The sad move history of this article is evidence of what happens when choices are all more or less bad. However, as this is so bad, here we therefore can almost discard the principle "best known as" because we will never get any NC-acceptable result by that. I understand that the current NC were written partly to direct the formulation for just these sort of cases where any ready answer is not available. Another editor, imo quite acceptably, solved the same problem with her niece resulting in a "never-used-irl" Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom, which is afaik just an application of NC, and not to be found anywhere else. 217.140.193.123 17:57, 17 September 2005 (UTC) - Hey Arrigo, as you say in this paragraph this is a somewhat more complex case. Taking part in the discussion with two different signatures is, of course, not making it simpler. Especially as you take different stances with each of the two signatures. -- Francis Schonken 18:25, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
In the titles and styles section, it gives her dowager title and style as Her Imperial Majesty The German Empress Frederick. Does anyone know for certain if she adopted the style of the German Empress Frederick or just the Empress Frederick? The latter seems to me the most logical style, although if the other was what she had adopted, then that is fine. I want to change it to The Empress Frederick, but I will wait for discussion. Charles 01:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your point is with the Princes of Wales. "Prince of Wales" was the highest title held by all of them. The problem with Vicky (and Charlotte) is that they were Princess Royal, but they also held a higher title (Queen of Württemberg/Empress of the German Empire). Officially, we're supposed to remove any "Princess" title from royal consorts. Thus, we have Mary of Teck, not Princess Mary of Teck; Alexandra of Denmark, not Princess Alexandra of Denmark, and so forth. john k 07:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
How about Victoria of the United Kingdom (German empress)? disambiguating her maiden name by her most notable achievement.
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 19:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick → Victoria, Princess Royal - This follows all present guidelines for the naming of royal and imperial consorts. The practice is in place with Charlotte, Princess Royal who was queen of Württemberg. All other Princesses Royal held peerage titles via husbands or are named as to disambiguate them from Princesses Royal of the same forename. Such is not needed for Victoria. Charles 19:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering, did Victoria (and by extension, her siblings) receive any titles from their father? This passage from her mother's page says that the Queen would have been a Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Duchess in Saxony as Prince Albert's wife, but of course the title of Queen would outrank those. Prsgodd e ss187 13:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Although hardly a stub, it is still a bit bare bones and other pertinent info could be added. Vicky was a controversial figure in Germany as well as being involved in many contemporary events, from her patronage of the arts and sciences (eg Virchow) to her political clashes with Bismarck and later, her son Wilhelm. I'LL add what I can source adequately but this could use some expert attention too Plutonium27 ( talk) 10:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The source of the naming of this inlet in British Columbia is uncertain as described in the article howver neither of those who are thought to be the ones it was named for have "Louisa" as part of their names, but rather "Louise". I mention it here in case anyone comes across a source that would indicate who this inlet was named for. -- KenWalker | Talk 05:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Recent discussions at naming conventions mean that we have moved away from normally referring to queens and the like by their maiden name. However, actually referring to a woman by her husband's name sound artificial nowadays. I therefore propose "Victoria, Empress of Germany" as the best title. Another possibility is "Victoria, German Empress". PatGallacher ( talk) 16:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree with PatGallacher. I also agree with the point raised by Francis Schonken that "Princess Royal" is UK-centered POV. Victoria, Princess Royal is actually a horrible and very misleading article title. If we were to use her pre-marital "name", it would be the house name (Victoria of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha). "Princess Royal" is just one of several titles she held, and not widely understood outside the UK. I think her being the German Empress and Queen of Prussia is a lot more significant than the Princess Royal title in the UK. I like the idea above of simply Empress Victoria of Germany, analogous with Queen Sofía of Spain. I feel Empress Frederick is too old-fashioned and not in line with other similar article titles, also, this expression was only used when she was the Empress Dowager. Jolanak ( talk) 06:55, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the title of the article read: "Victoria, German Empress"? HansNZL ( talk) 08:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Future discussions of what the title need to involve how the subject is referred to in the reliable sources. Cúchullain t/ c 16:25, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Victoria, Princess Royal → Victoria, German Empress – Comparatively recent discussions on the talk page seem to be heading in this direction. We are moving in the direction of referring to queens by their married not maiden title, see the discussion at Marie of Romania. She is more important for her role in Germany, where she spent most of her life, than in Britain. The current title is not very satisfactory since the title of Princess Royal is slightly obscure, only used in formal contexts, even in Britain most people think of the present holder as Princess Anne, and it is also biased since Portugal also had a Princess Royal for a time. Consulting Wikipedias in other languages is not much help since they use a wide range of titles but I have not found any which uses the exact equivalent of the current title. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 21:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC) PatGallacher ( talk) 10:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Victoria Deutscher Kaiserin [2]
Dieses haus erbaute
In den jahren 1889 bis 1893
Victoria
Deutsche kaiserin und konigin von Preussen
Princess royal von grossbritannien und Irland
Geboren zu london am 21 november 1840
Gestorben hier am 5 august 1901]]
This house was built
In the years 1889 to 1893
Victoria
German Empress and Queen of Prussia
Princess Royal of Great Britain and Ireland
Born London on 21 november 1840
Died here on 5 august 1901
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
There is a page named
Heir Presumptive
yet the link here to
heir presumptive
does not go to it.
However, should Heir Presumptive be capitalized? I have not capitalized it here pending resolution of this point.
Songwriter 17:43 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Aren't there several Princesses named Victoria? RickK 19:27 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Shouldn't this page be at Victoria, Princess Royal? -- Jiang 22:00 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I have moved it to Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom to follow royal naming conventiions. I would love to use the PR title but as there are a number of PRs with the same name and they lack ordinals to distinguish between them, using [[name, Princess Royal]] is too problematic and so should be reserved for the current Princess Royal. It is a problem that was discussed at length. Using the basic royal title also matches general naming conventions in terms of reverting dead royal brides to their maiden title (Catherine of Aragon, etc). The convention agreed was that unless a royal had a peerage, they would be entered as Princess of whatever state they came from (or linked to title if relevant, in this case the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. (Hence Princess Margaret of the United Kingdom, Prince William of Wales, Princess Beatrice of York, etc.) BTW I have also set up a redirect from her marital title which also existed. FearÉIREANN 22:43 4 Jul 2003 (UTC)
There were two princess of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (excluding Queen Victoria before her ascension) who were officially known as "Victoria": (1) Victoria, Princess Royal and later Empress Friedrich (1842-1901), the eldest daughter of Victoria of the United Kingdom; and (2) Princess Victoria (1868-1935), the unmarried second daugther of Edward VII of the United Kingdom. I am considering contributing an article on the second Princess Victoria (nicknamed "Toria"). However, if I used the naming convention Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom it would create a conflict with the existing article dealing with Victoria, Princess Royal. Do you have any suggestions? Also, since 4 Jul 2003, I have added the article Louise, Princess Royal and Duchess of Fife and expanded the existing article Mary, Princess Royal.
Jeff 2:05 28 Sept 2003 (UTC)
To solve the problem I noted above, I renamed the article Princess Victoria of the United Kingdom as Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick. I then created a separate article for Princess Victoria Alexandra Olga Mary(1868-1935), the daughter of Edward VII, using the title Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom.
Jeff 10:38 29 Sept 2003 (UTC)
To use Princess Royal as her only distinguisher is an obvious
anglocentric decision. Basically generic titles cannot in that way reserved to one country. She should be at her pre-marital location "firstname of countryshewasprincessof". I object strongly to this sort of use of title which causes more difficukties than solves anything.
And, to repeat Princess twice in the heading is something unspeakable - the heading does not need it even once.
217.140.193.123 3 July 2005 20:50 (UTC)
There is now a discussion (and possibly a poll) ongoing regarding the location of the article itself, see
Talk:Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick. I would hope that any moves of talkpages are not executed before the location of the article itself finds its ultimate location.
217.140.193.123 18:12, 17 September 2005 (UTC) PS: the ultimate location might be a bin, mightn't it :)
I added back in the links to Victoria's children: Sigismund, Waldemar and Sophie. Prsgoddess187 15:39, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
This article should not be located in this sort of hybrid name which besides contains too much titulary (i.e Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick). 217.140.193.123 19:06, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
As a result of talks below a (preliminary) short list of choices was developed, now proposed for the vote. This set of most likely choices will be added to the vote proposal at WP:RM.
This is an Approval vote as suggested by WP:RM (i.e. striving for at least 60% consensus on an option before a "move" to that option is operated). See Wikipedia:How_to_hold_a_consensus_vote#Third_choice:_Approval_voting for further guidance if not accustomed.
Here are the options. Vote for as many as you want. The option with the most votes is the consensus.
Allow me to add a new note as well. I looked at the German language version. It simply says "Kaiserin Victoria" so I would say, this whole Empress Frederick or Princess Victoria business would be confusing. I would propose:
so there can be no confusion with any other Victorias.
How about simple
In total 4 persons voted (Arrigo, Gryffindor, Francis, Septentrionalis). The option with the highest number of votes (2 votes, Gryffindor and Septentrionalis) supported a move to Empress Victoria of Germany, summary:
As it seems unlikely that this discussion will result in a clear consensus anywhere in the foreseeable future, keeping it this listed on WP:RM for prolonged voting seems not advised, so I implement the present NO MOVE vote result, and remove the listing of the request from WP:RM, helping out with the backlog there. -- Francis Schonken 08:49, 28 September 2005 (UTC)
Comments for the voting
"Empress Frederick" and "Empress Frederick of Germany" are untenable choices, as they do not even include her own name. To me, it is unthinkable to put a biographical article about a female under the heading that says only her husband's name. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
I oppose strongly the use of "Princess Royal" as her only disambiguator. In my opinion, that continues a certain trend of "political" anglocentrism here, pushing British-view POV to material which is supposed to be international and NPOV. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC) P.S. Anyway, she certainly was not known as "Princess Royal" during the biggest part of her life. The idea of consort naming is not to endorse girlhood titulary to all eternity, but to disambiguate between consorts of the same first name by using preferentially a territorial designation. As deceased monarchical consort, she should thus not have any titulary in her heading (if any titulary were to used it should be her highest title, i.e Empress, but all titularies are against NC). I repeat: no titulary. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
She actually was not "Empress of Germany", she was German Empress. The first-mentioned formulation obviously is from someone who does not even know the facts of the case. Arrigo 16:52, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
Victoria Adelaide of the United Kingdom
Victoria, Empress Frederick - included in short list for vote
Victoria of the United Kingdom (Vicky)
Victoria of the United Kingdom (1840-1901)
Victoria, Princess Royal - included in short list for vote
Princess Victoria, Princess Royal
The chief problem, as always, lies of course in the fact that there have been at least four individuals with some stake to the simple and nice name Victoria of the United Kingdom. Some disambiguation is thus needed. The three worthy persons were Queen Victoria, who is now located at Victoria of the United Kingdom, her eldest daughter Vicky, the German empress, who could be at Victoria Adelaide of the United Kingdom and the second granddaughter of the first-mentioned queen, Princess Toria, who currently is located at Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom. Additionally, another granddaughter could also have a stake, but fortunately she can be located at Princess Victoria of Edinburgh (and I am certainly not suggesting her move at this time). This mess has made me think again and again that we possibly should not have a prohibition against using the ordinal ("I") of monarchs who were the only so-named in their monarchies, as the first Victoria could then be at Victoria I of the United Kingdom which at least hints that she was not only a princess or a consort.... Arrigo 09:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
My opinion: Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick as the current heading of the article is a horrible abomination, it is against all naming conventions. It has two epithets which were never used simultaneously. It defines her with her husband's name, which IMO is almost always a bad way. It has as many as two titularies in a case where a heading is possible (and recommended by NC) without even one titulary - titularies in headings taste somewhat unencyclopedic, and two such in one heading could be regarded as ridiculous sycophancy by our some readers, which tends to make this encyclopedia seem ridiculous. It has "Princess Royal" as one epithet, although that sort of use can be regarded as anglocentric POV by several. Arrigo 09:01, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I would at this stage prefer Victoria Adelaide of the United Kingdom as it at least is disambiguated and follows the same idea that has created her niece's article at Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom. Let's have a thorough discussion. Arrigo 09:17, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I'm wary of all these votes triggered without the flimsiest evidence of prior research to sort out the most likely alternative(s), nor any attempt to create consensus prior to triggering a vote.
This is what I found:
Clarification by Google test in this case near to impossible, while so many pages telling something about Vicky, also mention Queen Victoria (and mention attributes like "of England", "of Germany" and the like) - so there appears no reliable way to separate the one from the other by web search engine.
The only thing I learnt from the google test is that "Adelaide" is, as far as I can see, never the "only" mentioned middle name for Vicky: either at least also her second middle name "Mary" is mentioned, but seemingly even more often the full set, including her 3rd middle name "Louize" is mentioned (that is, if any of the middle names is mentioned).
On the other hand, I found this list of books about (or partly by in the case of letters) Vicky:
-> I don't know about how correct/exhaustive this list is, so feel free to complete/check it, and inform your fellow wikipedians.
-> Apart from "Other Victoria" and "Daughter of..." which are too ambiguous for a wikipedia page title on a person, and the "Wife of..." and "Mother of ..." that wikipedia likewise tries to avoid in page names:
-> Taken together it seems to me that:
For the supporters of the middle name(s), there's still Britannica, 1984 printed edition listing her under Victoria Adelaide Mary Louize
On-line encyclopedias: I found:
None of the English encyclop(a)edias appear to be mentioning "Empress Frederick" in the title (and even only one mentions "Empress" at all). Noneteless all mention "Victoria" in the article title; so "Victoria" seems sort of unavoidable too.
Victoria, Empress Frederick appears the most likely choice to me at this point. Try and convince me otherwise, I would say! -- Francis Schonken 16:04, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
This is indeed a choice between bad and worse. And those of us who knew her in advance, were aware of that - it is no surprise to those who are experts in royalty, genealogy etc (thus, anyone who shows being surprised, demonstrates his/her unfamiliarity with the substance in these questions). The sad move history of this article is evidence of what happens when choices are all more or less bad. However, as this is so bad, here we therefore can almost discard the principle "best known as" because we will never get any NC-acceptable result by that. I understand that the current NC were written partly to direct the formulation for just these sort of cases where any ready answer is not available. Another editor, imo quite acceptably, solved the same problem with her niece resulting in a "never-used-irl" Princess Victoria Alexandra of the United Kingdom, which is afaik just an application of NC, and not to be found anywhere else. 217.140.193.123 17:57, 17 September 2005 (UTC) - Hey Arrigo, as you say in this paragraph this is a somewhat more complex case. Taking part in the discussion with two different signatures is, of course, not making it simpler. Especially as you take different stances with each of the two signatures. -- Francis Schonken 18:25, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
In the titles and styles section, it gives her dowager title and style as Her Imperial Majesty The German Empress Frederick. Does anyone know for certain if she adopted the style of the German Empress Frederick or just the Empress Frederick? The latter seems to me the most logical style, although if the other was what she had adopted, then that is fine. I want to change it to The Empress Frederick, but I will wait for discussion. Charles 01:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure what your point is with the Princes of Wales. "Prince of Wales" was the highest title held by all of them. The problem with Vicky (and Charlotte) is that they were Princess Royal, but they also held a higher title (Queen of Württemberg/Empress of the German Empire). Officially, we're supposed to remove any "Princess" title from royal consorts. Thus, we have Mary of Teck, not Princess Mary of Teck; Alexandra of Denmark, not Princess Alexandra of Denmark, and so forth. john k 07:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
How about Victoria of the United Kingdom (German empress)? disambiguating her maiden name by her most notable achievement.
The result of the debate was move. — Nightst a llion (?) Seen this already? 19:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)
Victoria, Princess Royal and Empress Frederick → Victoria, Princess Royal - This follows all present guidelines for the naming of royal and imperial consorts. The practice is in place with Charlotte, Princess Royal who was queen of Württemberg. All other Princesses Royal held peerage titles via husbands or are named as to disambiguate them from Princesses Royal of the same forename. Such is not needed for Victoria. Charles 19:50, 21 March 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering, did Victoria (and by extension, her siblings) receive any titles from their father? This passage from her mother's page says that the Queen would have been a Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha and Duchess in Saxony as Prince Albert's wife, but of course the title of Queen would outrank those. Prsgodd e ss187 13:22, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Although hardly a stub, it is still a bit bare bones and other pertinent info could be added. Vicky was a controversial figure in Germany as well as being involved in many contemporary events, from her patronage of the arts and sciences (eg Virchow) to her political clashes with Bismarck and later, her son Wilhelm. I'LL add what I can source adequately but this could use some expert attention too Plutonium27 ( talk) 10:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
The source of the naming of this inlet in British Columbia is uncertain as described in the article howver neither of those who are thought to be the ones it was named for have "Louisa" as part of their names, but rather "Louise". I mention it here in case anyone comes across a source that would indicate who this inlet was named for. -- KenWalker | Talk 05:23, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
Recent discussions at naming conventions mean that we have moved away from normally referring to queens and the like by their maiden name. However, actually referring to a woman by her husband's name sound artificial nowadays. I therefore propose "Victoria, Empress of Germany" as the best title. Another possibility is "Victoria, German Empress". PatGallacher ( talk) 16:08, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I agree with PatGallacher. I also agree with the point raised by Francis Schonken that "Princess Royal" is UK-centered POV. Victoria, Princess Royal is actually a horrible and very misleading article title. If we were to use her pre-marital "name", it would be the house name (Victoria of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha). "Princess Royal" is just one of several titles she held, and not widely understood outside the UK. I think her being the German Empress and Queen of Prussia is a lot more significant than the Princess Royal title in the UK. I like the idea above of simply Empress Victoria of Germany, analogous with Queen Sofía of Spain. I feel Empress Frederick is too old-fashioned and not in line with other similar article titles, also, this expression was only used when she was the Empress Dowager. Jolanak ( talk) 06:55, 28 February 2011 (UTC)
Shouldn't the title of the article read: "Victoria, German Empress"? HansNZL ( talk) 08:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Future discussions of what the title need to involve how the subject is referred to in the reliable sources. Cúchullain t/ c 16:25, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Victoria, Princess Royal → Victoria, German Empress – Comparatively recent discussions on the talk page seem to be heading in this direction. We are moving in the direction of referring to queens by their married not maiden title, see the discussion at Marie of Romania. She is more important for her role in Germany, where she spent most of her life, than in Britain. The current title is not very satisfactory since the title of Princess Royal is slightly obscure, only used in formal contexts, even in Britain most people think of the present holder as Princess Anne, and it is also biased since Portugal also had a Princess Royal for a time. Consulting Wikipedias in other languages is not much help since they use a wide range of titles but I have not found any which uses the exact equivalent of the current title. Relisted. BDD ( talk) 21:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC) PatGallacher ( talk) 10:14, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Victoria Deutscher Kaiserin [2]
Dieses haus erbaute
In den jahren 1889 bis 1893
Victoria
Deutsche kaiserin und konigin von Preussen
Princess royal von grossbritannien und Irland
Geboren zu london am 21 november 1840
Gestorben hier am 5 august 1901]]
This house was built
In the years 1889 to 1893
Victoria
German Empress and Queen of Prussia
Princess Royal of Great Britain and Ireland
Born London on 21 november 1840
Died here on 5 august 1901