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talk page for discussing improvements to the
Vicente S. Santos Jr. article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Per WP:SURNAME, individuals are to be referred to by their full name (including any rank or title) the first time they are mentioned in an article which in a biography is usually the very first sentence and by their surname (i.e., family name or last name) thereafter. "Santos" is used throughout the article after the lede, so there's no real reason to refer to him by his full rank at the beginning of the section about his family. If there is some reason, his full name and rank needs to be mentioned which cannot be explained using text, please discuss it here. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 22:50, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, hence I am including his rank and full name in the first sentence, I don't understand why did the previous editors removed the Rank (in the full name) of the first sentence of my father's biography.
ישו יברך אותנו [1] |
03:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabyan17 ( talk • contribs)
In this post made to a file page on Wikimedia Commons, Fabyan17 says he is the son of the subject of this article. COI editing is not something expressly prohibited by Wikipedia per se, but it is something highly because it can be hard for those connected to the subjects of Wikipedia articles to maintain a neutral point of view when editing. For example, in this edit, Fabyan17 adds content about himself to the article in manner which seems more self-promotional than encyclopedic. Much of the information in the "Marriage and family", "Spiritual perspective", "Retirement" and "Death" sections appears to have been added by Fabyan17. This information is likely true, but none it is supported by any citations to independent reliable sources for verification purposes; Moreover, some of this information is probably not worth mentioning per WP:NOTEVERYTHING.
In addition, much of the content in the "Defense of Camp Emilio Aguinaldo - August 1987" section seems to be a single quote from a book about Santos' involvement in the event. It's questionable whether such a large quote is needed per WP:UNDUE and the entire section seems to be more point-of-view than neutrally worded. Personal photos have also be added throughout the article which seem a bit unnecessary per WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:NOTGALLERY since their encyclopedic relevance is also not clear.
I've added some WikiProject banners to the top of this talk page, and I am going to ask some of the members of those projects to assess this article and help clean it up a bit. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 00:43, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
There is no COI issues involved, since the information of the biography are from sources and references that have been properly cited. People who are part of the family or heirs of the subject person, in fact, give credence and validate the biography of the subject individual. Please read the "authorized biography" part in the wiki article: /info/en/?search=Biography
ישו יברך אותנו [2] |
01:35, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
This article is relevant, since the wiki article written about my father is called "BIOGRAPHY", hence it is a guide / reference in writing biographies: /info/en/?search=Biography explicitly stated that "Authorized Biographies" is written with the permission, cooperation, and at times, participation of a subject or a subject's heirs. The information of the subject article have proper sources and references cited. Hence, pls do not insist conflict of interest, because all official biographies of persons are always verified and has participation of the heirs of the subject personality. Thanks
ישו יברך אותנו [3] |
02:50, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabyan17 ( talk • contribs)
<!-- ~~~~
, but the syntax was incorrect and it was causing problems with the pages formatting, so I temporarily fixed it. If you want to add your signature after the fact, then you can use
Template:Unsigned, or add the
4 tilde manually. You should, however, follow the instructions at
WP:REDACT if someone replies to a post before you correct/add your signature. --
Marchjuly (
talk) 03:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)ישו יברך אותנו [4] |
Hi Pokefan, the edits that I am reverting is the Military Training and Seminars of Col Vicente Santos, before you dismiss the reference cited from the wordpress, maybe you have not read the content, that is the manuscript of a published book with ISBN entitled "Demokrasya at Kudeta", authored by Col. Gaudencio San Juan, search for it and you'll see that it is a published book. There is no issue of NPOV here, since the entries that I am adding are neutral information, these military trainings are part and essential to a biography of a military officer. Do not say that it is a warning, because I have not violated any wiki policy. You are already being subjective and partial. Again, pls. Do not remove the Military Training part.
ישו יברך אותנו [5] |
23:08, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabyan17 ( talk • contribs)
Hi pokefan, the one that you are citing "For example, this part, “Useless,” he muttered as the word flashed in his mind. Then everything blanked out., again it seems you have not read the article, I am quoting from a book entitled "Demokrasya at Kudeta" that is not mine, but the words / excerpts from the book. Hence, there is quotation marks there. The reference is cited there. Read it first before concluding, because those are excerpts / quotations from the book "Demokrasya at Kudeta" published with ISBN by Col. Gaudencio San Juan. Thank you
ישו יברך אותנו [6] |
03:29, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
I've been Googling for possible reliable sources which could possibly be used to support what is written in this article, but I am not having much luck. I did find this which would likely be a reliable source, but I do not have access to Highbeam so I cannot see if it mentions Santos. I also found this, and there is some discussion of Camp Aguinaldo and the August 1987 Coup attempt in that report. Quite a few other names were mentioned, including some named Santos, but I cannot find any mention of any Vicente Santos. Since the article claims that Santos died in 2012 and received full military honours in a funeral attended by a former president of the Philippines, it's not unreasonable to expect that his funeral received some kind of press coverage in major newspapers in the Philippines; I can't, however, find anything at all even for this. Most of the sources are for books that Santos has written, but none of that seems to stand-out per WP:SIGCOV and his primary claim to Wikipedia notability does not seem to be as that of an author. The more I look for sources, the harder it's getting to see how he satisfies WP:BASIC. The overall tone of the article and the addition of personal photos, etc. due to COI editing is giving the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that this is intended to be more of a memorial than a Wikipedia article. Moreover, the fact that the primary editor whose been adding such content says that they are the son of Santos and his apparent feeling that this is somehow an "authorized biography" of Santos might indicate a misunderstanding of Wikipedia's purpose. Without better sourcing, I'm not too confident that this would survive an AfD unless there is some Wikiproject notability guideline particular to these types of biographies which is being met. Non-English and offline sources are acceptable and can be used to establish notability per WP:PUBLISHED and WP:NOENG, but it needs to be shown that such sources exist. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 08:10, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
ישו יברך אותנו [7] |
ישו יברך אותנו [8] |
I think this section could use a bit of cleaning up of puffery, such as "prolific writer" and "influential in the use", as well as the unsourced content at the beginning/ end of the section per WP:PEA and WP:UNSOURCED. The section may need to be trimmed quite a bit to bring it more in line with WP:NPOV and WP:V.
There's also probably no need for citations give for some of the publications listed per
WP:BOMBARD and
WP:CITEKILL. Books, etc. can be more then sufficiently identified by their isbn numbers so no need really for a citation. One way this could be done is using
Template:Cite book like this {{cite book|title=The Veteran is Worth Caring For|year=2011|edition=Revised|orig-year=2010|publisher=GJMCV Publishing Enterprises|isbn=978-971-011-114-5}}
which would look like The Veteran is Worth Caring For (Revised ed.). GJMCV Publishing Enterprises. 2011 [2010].
ISBN
978-971-011-114-5. in the article. The template displays the isbn numbers as links which take the reader to a page where they can find the book online. The urls currently used in the article could be added to the |url=
parameter in the template if they are deemed necessary. The |language=
and |trans-title=
parameters could also be used for anything not written English.
Some of the publications listed, however, do not seem to have isbn numbers or have possibly incorrect isbn numbers. For example, The source for Filipino para sa Sundalo lists the isbn number as 978-971-691-466-5, but an isbn search of that number comes up empty. The urls provided for Diksyunaryo ng Kadete and Filipino para sa Kawal, Pulis at Kadete give very little information about the books. Some kind of consensus should be reached as to whether anything without a verifiable isbn number should be mentioned in the article per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:LSC. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Vicente S. Santos Jr. article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent. |
The following Wikipedia contributor has declared a personal or professional connection to the subject of this article. Relevant policies and guidelines may include conflict of interest, autobiography, and neutral point of view. |
Per WP:SURNAME, individuals are to be referred to by their full name (including any rank or title) the first time they are mentioned in an article which in a biography is usually the very first sentence and by their surname (i.e., family name or last name) thereafter. "Santos" is used throughout the article after the lede, so there's no real reason to refer to him by his full rank at the beginning of the section about his family. If there is some reason, his full name and rank needs to be mentioned which cannot be explained using text, please discuss it here. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 22:50, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Yes, hence I am including his rank and full name in the first sentence, I don't understand why did the previous editors removed the Rank (in the full name) of the first sentence of my father's biography.
ישו יברך אותנו [1] |
03:27, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabyan17 ( talk • contribs)
In this post made to a file page on Wikimedia Commons, Fabyan17 says he is the son of the subject of this article. COI editing is not something expressly prohibited by Wikipedia per se, but it is something highly because it can be hard for those connected to the subjects of Wikipedia articles to maintain a neutral point of view when editing. For example, in this edit, Fabyan17 adds content about himself to the article in manner which seems more self-promotional than encyclopedic. Much of the information in the "Marriage and family", "Spiritual perspective", "Retirement" and "Death" sections appears to have been added by Fabyan17. This information is likely true, but none it is supported by any citations to independent reliable sources for verification purposes; Moreover, some of this information is probably not worth mentioning per WP:NOTEVERYTHING.
In addition, much of the content in the "Defense of Camp Emilio Aguinaldo - August 1987" section seems to be a single quote from a book about Santos' involvement in the event. It's questionable whether such a large quote is needed per WP:UNDUE and the entire section seems to be more point-of-view than neutrally worded. Personal photos have also be added throughout the article which seem a bit unnecessary per WP:NOTMEMORIAL and WP:NOTGALLERY since their encyclopedic relevance is also not clear.
I've added some WikiProject banners to the top of this talk page, and I am going to ask some of the members of those projects to assess this article and help clean it up a bit. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 00:43, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
There is no COI issues involved, since the information of the biography are from sources and references that have been properly cited. People who are part of the family or heirs of the subject person, in fact, give credence and validate the biography of the subject individual. Please read the "authorized biography" part in the wiki article: /info/en/?search=Biography
ישו יברך אותנו [2] |
01:35, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
This article is relevant, since the wiki article written about my father is called "BIOGRAPHY", hence it is a guide / reference in writing biographies: /info/en/?search=Biography explicitly stated that "Authorized Biographies" is written with the permission, cooperation, and at times, participation of a subject or a subject's heirs. The information of the subject article have proper sources and references cited. Hence, pls do not insist conflict of interest, because all official biographies of persons are always verified and has participation of the heirs of the subject personality. Thanks
ישו יברך אותנו [3] |
02:50, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabyan17 ( talk • contribs)
<!-- ~~~~
, but the syntax was incorrect and it was causing problems with the pages formatting, so I temporarily fixed it. If you want to add your signature after the fact, then you can use
Template:Unsigned, or add the
4 tilde manually. You should, however, follow the instructions at
WP:REDACT if someone replies to a post before you correct/add your signature. --
Marchjuly (
talk) 03:18, 30 May 2016 (UTC)ישו יברך אותנו [4] |
Hi Pokefan, the edits that I am reverting is the Military Training and Seminars of Col Vicente Santos, before you dismiss the reference cited from the wordpress, maybe you have not read the content, that is the manuscript of a published book with ISBN entitled "Demokrasya at Kudeta", authored by Col. Gaudencio San Juan, search for it and you'll see that it is a published book. There is no issue of NPOV here, since the entries that I am adding are neutral information, these military trainings are part and essential to a biography of a military officer. Do not say that it is a warning, because I have not violated any wiki policy. You are already being subjective and partial. Again, pls. Do not remove the Military Training part.
ישו יברך אותנו [5] |
23:08, 30 May 2016 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fabyan17 ( talk • contribs)
Hi pokefan, the one that you are citing "For example, this part, “Useless,” he muttered as the word flashed in his mind. Then everything blanked out., again it seems you have not read the article, I am quoting from a book entitled "Demokrasya at Kudeta" that is not mine, but the words / excerpts from the book. Hence, there is quotation marks there. The reference is cited there. Read it first before concluding, because those are excerpts / quotations from the book "Demokrasya at Kudeta" published with ISBN by Col. Gaudencio San Juan. Thank you
ישו יברך אותנו [6] |
03:29, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
I've been Googling for possible reliable sources which could possibly be used to support what is written in this article, but I am not having much luck. I did find this which would likely be a reliable source, but I do not have access to Highbeam so I cannot see if it mentions Santos. I also found this, and there is some discussion of Camp Aguinaldo and the August 1987 Coup attempt in that report. Quite a few other names were mentioned, including some named Santos, but I cannot find any mention of any Vicente Santos. Since the article claims that Santos died in 2012 and received full military honours in a funeral attended by a former president of the Philippines, it's not unreasonable to expect that his funeral received some kind of press coverage in major newspapers in the Philippines; I can't, however, find anything at all even for this. Most of the sources are for books that Santos has written, but none of that seems to stand-out per WP:SIGCOV and his primary claim to Wikipedia notability does not seem to be as that of an author. The more I look for sources, the harder it's getting to see how he satisfies WP:BASIC. The overall tone of the article and the addition of personal photos, etc. due to COI editing is giving the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that this is intended to be more of a memorial than a Wikipedia article. Moreover, the fact that the primary editor whose been adding such content says that they are the son of Santos and his apparent feeling that this is somehow an "authorized biography" of Santos might indicate a misunderstanding of Wikipedia's purpose. Without better sourcing, I'm not too confident that this would survive an AfD unless there is some Wikiproject notability guideline particular to these types of biographies which is being met. Non-English and offline sources are acceptable and can be used to establish notability per WP:PUBLISHED and WP:NOENG, but it needs to be shown that such sources exist. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 08:10, 30 May 2016 (UTC)
ישו יברך אותנו [7] |
ישו יברך אותנו [8] |
I think this section could use a bit of cleaning up of puffery, such as "prolific writer" and "influential in the use", as well as the unsourced content at the beginning/ end of the section per WP:PEA and WP:UNSOURCED. The section may need to be trimmed quite a bit to bring it more in line with WP:NPOV and WP:V.
There's also probably no need for citations give for some of the publications listed per
WP:BOMBARD and
WP:CITEKILL. Books, etc. can be more then sufficiently identified by their isbn numbers so no need really for a citation. One way this could be done is using
Template:Cite book like this {{cite book|title=The Veteran is Worth Caring For|year=2011|edition=Revised|orig-year=2010|publisher=GJMCV Publishing Enterprises|isbn=978-971-011-114-5}}
which would look like The Veteran is Worth Caring For (Revised ed.). GJMCV Publishing Enterprises. 2011 [2010].
ISBN
978-971-011-114-5. in the article. The template displays the isbn numbers as links which take the reader to a page where they can find the book online. The urls currently used in the article could be added to the |url=
parameter in the template if they are deemed necessary. The |language=
and |trans-title=
parameters could also be used for anything not written English.
Some of the publications listed, however, do not seem to have isbn numbers or have possibly incorrect isbn numbers. For example, The source for Filipino para sa Sundalo lists the isbn number as 978-971-691-466-5, but an isbn search of that number comes up empty. The urls provided for Diksyunaryo ng Kadete and Filipino para sa Kawal, Pulis at Kadete give very little information about the books. Some kind of consensus should be reached as to whether anything without a verifiable isbn number should be mentioned in the article per WP:NOTEVERYTHING and WP:LSC. -- Marchjuly ( talk) 07:25, 1 June 2016 (UTC)