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Please follow Wiki conventions: comments are posted in chronological order. The newest ones go at the bottom. Please also use headings to set off new topics.-- Stephen Hodge 17:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
When i look at a Sanskrit dictionary & Pali dictionary and make a comparison on those word. i noticed that it have a slight different meaning. Vibhajjavada (Pali) Vibhajyavada (Sanskrit). Dictionary:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ (Sanskrit, Tamil & Pahlavi) 218.208.24.235 01:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
hi Nat,
for http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ pls key in "Vibhajja" you will get:
Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail (˚ -- ) D iii.229 (˚vyākaraṇīya pañha "discriminating reply" trsln); A ii.46 (˚vacana analysis). -- ˚vāda the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravāda, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -- ˚vādin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha Mhvs 5, 271; Tikp 366; VbhA 130; cp. Kvu trsln introd. p. 38.
for http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ pls key in "Vibhajya" you will get:
vibhAjya mfn. to be divided or apportioned , divisible Mn. ix , 219. 05:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)~~
This page was created to give a description about the 1) Ancestor of Theravada 2) The Concept promoted by Theravada. Theravada use Pali as their religion language. Sanskrit word don't have a place here. When i look at a Sanskrit dictionary & Pali dictionary and make a comparison on those word. i noticed that it have a slight different meaning. Vibhajjavada (Pali) Vibhajyavada (Sanskrit). I will modified it and move it to another page.
Dictionary:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ (Sanskrit, Tamil & Pahlavi) - 218.208.24.235 00:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
If u search in google, u will realized that website that belong to Mahayana & Vajrayana list it as "Teaching Of Seperation" or " Doctrine Of Distinction". While website that belong to Theravada list it as "Teaching Of Analysis" Or "Doctrine Of Analysis".
"Vibhajjavada" was a Pali word, the Pali language was currently used by Theravadins as their religious language. No other Buddhist sect use Pali. Pali is based on a dialect of Middle Indo-Aryan that was probably spoken in central India during the Buddha's time. It currently no longer used as a common spoken langauge in India. If u wana know the true meaning of a Chinese word, will u ask a Chinese or a Japanese to translate the word correctly, even thou the Japanese may had learned Chinese at University Of Tokyo and created his own Chinese Dictionary?
Here was meaning of "Vibhajjavada" from Theravadins themself:
http://watthai.net/bluws/ebud/ebdha136.htm "Vibhajjavada, the "Doctrine of Analysis" or the "Religion of Reason" though the two terms are identical." by Maung Kyauk Seinn, Burma
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/councils.html "The members of this Council also gave a royal seal of approval to the doctrine of the Buddha, naming it the Vibhajjavada, the Doctrine of Analysis." by Venerable Dr. Rewata Dhamma, Sri Lanka
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/way_of_mindfulness.htm "The Buddha is the Master of analytic knowledge and his doctrine is called the Teaching of Analysis [vibhajjavada]." by Soma Thera, Sri Lanka
http://www.dailynews.lk/2003/11/24/fea06.html "Buddhism is a doctrine of analysis ('Vibhajjavada')" by Aryadasa Ratnasinghe, Sri Lanka
Other buddhist sect may argue about the true meaning of "Vibhajjavada", but it will be just like a Japanese arguing about the true meaning of a Chinese word with a Chinese from mainland China.
regards—Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.208.24.235 ( talk • contribs)
Please do not remove material just because it does not comply with your POV. This amounts censorship. Mention of the Sarvastivadin views is quite justified and informative for the general reader who might otherwise conclude that Vibhajjavada really was orthodox, while in fact, historically speaking, the majority of Buddhists in India would have deemed Vibhajjavada as heretical. The aim of Wikipedia is to be NPOV.-- Stephen Hodge 17:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
1) Pls prove that 'Vibhajya' (Sanskrit) mean 'Analysis',
2) "The followers of Vibhajjavāda comprised the ancestors of the Mahīśāsaka (P: Mahiṃsāsaka), the Kāśyapīya (P: Kassapiya), the Dharmaguptaka (P: Dhammaguttaka) and the Tāmraparnīya (P: Tambapanniya)" is the point of Contention.
"During Asoka's council (around 250 B.C.) the Sthaviras spawned the Sarvastivadins and the Vibhajyavadins... Other major groups spawned by the Sthavira tradition include the Sautrantikas and Dharmaguptakas. " by Crim, Keith (ed.). The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989). Reprint; originally pub. as Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions, 1981; pg. 151.
"The Hinayana enumerates the traditions of 18 schools that developed out of the original community... Two other schools that splintered from the Sthaviras are the Sarvastivada, out of which, around 150 B.C.E., came the Sautrantikas, and the Vibhajyavadins, who see themselves as orthodox Sthaviras. Out of this last school arose the Theravada, Mahishasakas, and Kashyapiyas; from the Mahishasakas came the Dharmaguptakas." by Fischer-Schreiber, Ingrid, et al. The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy & Religion: Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zen. Shambhala: Boston (English: pub. 1994; orig. German: 1986); pg. 129.
pls see -> http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_256.html
-- 218.208.24.235 04:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Then he gives several derivatives:
1. The idea that the Tambapanniyas did not have any doctrinal innovations is wrong. See the account given by Bhavya and Vinitadeva of the relationship between the schools. Also Lance Cousins paper, "On the Vibhajjavadins" (reference given above). 2. Inclusion of the Sarvastivadin view of the Vibhajjavadins is quite legitimate. Deletion of this passage without any discussion by a recent editor suggests suppression or censorship of inconvenient facts.-- Stephen Hodge 01:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
See also my previous message above, which I quote again here: "Please do not remove material just because it does not comply with your POV. This amounts censorship. Mention of the Sarvastivadin views is quite justified and informative for the general reader who might otherwise conclude that Vibhajjavada really was orthodox, while in fact, historically speaking, the majority of Buddhists in India would have deemed Vibhajjavada as heretical. The aim of Wikipedia is to be NPOV."-- Stephen Hodge 01:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The quote from the Pali Canon I added, suggests that the general direction of this article is a bit off. I only recognizes analysis. But it seems that true meaning of Vibhajjavada is more like discrimination: what is good, what is bad?Greetings, Sacca 04:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
"Discrimination" does not neccessary mean defining "what is good" or "what is bad", but it can go into a much broader sense of "defining", especially when it comes to Dhamma itself. Maybe it's the english translation which give this idea.
If we go into the meaning of "Vibhajja" in Pāli, it means: "having divided or analysed." (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)
"Vibhajjavāda" in full means: The words of reasons or "the religion of reason" (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)
and interestingly...
vibhajjavādī means "one who accepts the Theravāda doctrine" (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)
Another source from Pali-text society's English-Pali Dictionary...
Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail (˚ -- ) D iii.229 (˚vyākaraṇīya pañha "discriminating reply" trsln); A ii.46 (˚vacana analysis). -- ˚vāda the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravāda, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -- ˚vādin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha Mhvs 5, 271; Tikp 366; VbhA 130; cp. Kvu trsln introd. p. 38.
Sorry for my POV... = ) I find this whole article quite alright.
Buddhosavaka ( talk) 22:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The article is vague and does not say anything meaningful. From an Abrahmist perspective it is possible to say how Judaism differes from Christianity and within Christianity Protestant from Catholic with specific doctrinal examples e.g. transubstantiantion and what thet means. WHY can someone who is familiar with this subject not do the same for these schools. At present all you can see are arguements about if Pali or Sanskrit is the correct etymology, BUT nothing about what are the differences in a supposedyl heretical group or school or label. The word "some" is used, very vague how many? of what degree? and what kind of differences?
How can anyone spend so much time writing this ENCYCLOPEDIC article without the slighetest idea of how buddhism may vary between adherants rather than arhants beggars belief.
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Please follow Wiki conventions: comments are posted in chronological order. The newest ones go at the bottom. Please also use headings to set off new topics.-- Stephen Hodge 17:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
When i look at a Sanskrit dictionary & Pali dictionary and make a comparison on those word. i noticed that it have a slight different meaning. Vibhajjavada (Pali) Vibhajyavada (Sanskrit). Dictionary:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ (Sanskrit, Tamil & Pahlavi) 218.208.24.235 01:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
hi Nat,
for http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ pls key in "Vibhajja" you will get:
Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail (˚ -- ) D iii.229 (˚vyākaraṇīya pañha "discriminating reply" trsln); A ii.46 (˚vacana analysis). -- ˚vāda the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravāda, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -- ˚vādin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha Mhvs 5, 271; Tikp 366; VbhA 130; cp. Kvu trsln introd. p. 38.
for http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ pls key in "Vibhajya" you will get:
vibhAjya mfn. to be divided or apportioned , divisible Mn. ix , 219. 05:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)~~
This page was created to give a description about the 1) Ancestor of Theravada 2) The Concept promoted by Theravada. Theravada use Pali as their religion language. Sanskrit word don't have a place here. When i look at a Sanskrit dictionary & Pali dictionary and make a comparison on those word. i noticed that it have a slight different meaning. Vibhajjavada (Pali) Vibhajyavada (Sanskrit). I will modified it and move it to another page.
Dictionary:
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/
http://webapps.uni-koeln.de/tamil/ (Sanskrit, Tamil & Pahlavi) - 218.208.24.235 00:32, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
If u search in google, u will realized that website that belong to Mahayana & Vajrayana list it as "Teaching Of Seperation" or " Doctrine Of Distinction". While website that belong to Theravada list it as "Teaching Of Analysis" Or "Doctrine Of Analysis".
"Vibhajjavada" was a Pali word, the Pali language was currently used by Theravadins as their religious language. No other Buddhist sect use Pali. Pali is based on a dialect of Middle Indo-Aryan that was probably spoken in central India during the Buddha's time. It currently no longer used as a common spoken langauge in India. If u wana know the true meaning of a Chinese word, will u ask a Chinese or a Japanese to translate the word correctly, even thou the Japanese may had learned Chinese at University Of Tokyo and created his own Chinese Dictionary?
Here was meaning of "Vibhajjavada" from Theravadins themself:
http://watthai.net/bluws/ebud/ebdha136.htm "Vibhajjavada, the "Doctrine of Analysis" or the "Religion of Reason" though the two terms are identical." by Maung Kyauk Seinn, Burma
http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma/councils.html "The members of this Council also gave a royal seal of approval to the doctrine of the Buddha, naming it the Vibhajjavada, the Doctrine of Analysis." by Venerable Dr. Rewata Dhamma, Sri Lanka
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/way_of_mindfulness.htm "The Buddha is the Master of analytic knowledge and his doctrine is called the Teaching of Analysis [vibhajjavada]." by Soma Thera, Sri Lanka
http://www.dailynews.lk/2003/11/24/fea06.html "Buddhism is a doctrine of analysis ('Vibhajjavada')" by Aryadasa Ratnasinghe, Sri Lanka
Other buddhist sect may argue about the true meaning of "Vibhajjavada", but it will be just like a Japanese arguing about the true meaning of a Chinese word with a Chinese from mainland China.
regards—Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.208.24.235 ( talk • contribs)
Please do not remove material just because it does not comply with your POV. This amounts censorship. Mention of the Sarvastivadin views is quite justified and informative for the general reader who might otherwise conclude that Vibhajjavada really was orthodox, while in fact, historically speaking, the majority of Buddhists in India would have deemed Vibhajjavada as heretical. The aim of Wikipedia is to be NPOV.-- Stephen Hodge 17:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
1) Pls prove that 'Vibhajya' (Sanskrit) mean 'Analysis',
2) "The followers of Vibhajjavāda comprised the ancestors of the Mahīśāsaka (P: Mahiṃsāsaka), the Kāśyapīya (P: Kassapiya), the Dharmaguptaka (P: Dhammaguttaka) and the Tāmraparnīya (P: Tambapanniya)" is the point of Contention.
"During Asoka's council (around 250 B.C.) the Sthaviras spawned the Sarvastivadins and the Vibhajyavadins... Other major groups spawned by the Sthavira tradition include the Sautrantikas and Dharmaguptakas. " by Crim, Keith (ed.). The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions. San Francisco: Harper Collins (1989). Reprint; originally pub. as Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions, 1981; pg. 151.
"The Hinayana enumerates the traditions of 18 schools that developed out of the original community... Two other schools that splintered from the Sthaviras are the Sarvastivada, out of which, around 150 B.C.E., came the Sautrantikas, and the Vibhajyavadins, who see themselves as orthodox Sthaviras. Out of this last school arose the Theravada, Mahishasakas, and Kashyapiyas; from the Mahishasakas came the Dharmaguptakas." by Fischer-Schreiber, Ingrid, et al. The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy & Religion: Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Zen. Shambhala: Boston (English: pub. 1994; orig. German: 1986); pg. 129.
pls see -> http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_256.html
-- 218.208.24.235 04:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Then he gives several derivatives:
1. The idea that the Tambapanniyas did not have any doctrinal innovations is wrong. See the account given by Bhavya and Vinitadeva of the relationship between the schools. Also Lance Cousins paper, "On the Vibhajjavadins" (reference given above). 2. Inclusion of the Sarvastivadin view of the Vibhajjavadins is quite legitimate. Deletion of this passage without any discussion by a recent editor suggests suppression or censorship of inconvenient facts.-- Stephen Hodge 01:57, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
See also my previous message above, which I quote again here: "Please do not remove material just because it does not comply with your POV. This amounts censorship. Mention of the Sarvastivadin views is quite justified and informative for the general reader who might otherwise conclude that Vibhajjavada really was orthodox, while in fact, historically speaking, the majority of Buddhists in India would have deemed Vibhajjavada as heretical. The aim of Wikipedia is to be NPOV."-- Stephen Hodge 01:59, 14 October 2006 (UTC)
The quote from the Pali Canon I added, suggests that the general direction of this article is a bit off. I only recognizes analysis. But it seems that true meaning of Vibhajjavada is more like discrimination: what is good, what is bad?Greetings, Sacca 04:06, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
"Discrimination" does not neccessary mean defining "what is good" or "what is bad", but it can go into a much broader sense of "defining", especially when it comes to Dhamma itself. Maybe it's the english translation which give this idea.
If we go into the meaning of "Vibhajja" in Pāli, it means: "having divided or analysed." (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)
"Vibhajjavāda" in full means: The words of reasons or "the religion of reason" (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)
and interestingly...
vibhajjavādī means "one who accepts the Theravāda doctrine" (English-Pali Dictionary, by A.P. Buddhadatta Mahathera)
Another source from Pali-text society's English-Pali Dictionary...
Vibhajja (adv.) [ger. of vibhajati] dividing, analysing, detailing; in detail (˚ -- ) D iii.229 (˚vyākaraṇīya pañha "discriminating reply" trsln); A ii.46 (˚vacana analysis). -- ˚vāda the Vibhajja doctrine, i. e. the doctrine which analyses, or the "religion of logic or reason"; a term identical with theravāda, the doctrine of the Elders, i. e. the original teaching of the Buddhist church. -- ˚vādin one who teaches the V. doctrine, Ep. of the Buddha Mhvs 5, 271; Tikp 366; VbhA 130; cp. Kvu trsln introd. p. 38.
Sorry for my POV... = ) I find this whole article quite alright.
Buddhosavaka ( talk) 22:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The article is vague and does not say anything meaningful. From an Abrahmist perspective it is possible to say how Judaism differes from Christianity and within Christianity Protestant from Catholic with specific doctrinal examples e.g. transubstantiantion and what thet means. WHY can someone who is familiar with this subject not do the same for these schools. At present all you can see are arguements about if Pali or Sanskrit is the correct etymology, BUT nothing about what are the differences in a supposedyl heretical group or school or label. The word "some" is used, very vague how many? of what degree? and what kind of differences?
How can anyone spend so much time writing this ENCYCLOPEDIC article without the slighetest idea of how buddhism may vary between adherants rather than arhants beggars belief.