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Archive 1 |
I have strong concerns about the sources on this article. Right now it lists:
Well, I've checked Runciman, and there's no mention of this "Viam agnoscere veritatis" on that page. I've also checked Wilkinson, and ditto, no mention. Both do discuss papal communications, but the popes sent multiple communications, and I see nothing to confirm just which letter exactly was being discussed.
PHG, can you please explain? -- El on ka 23:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
PHG: I have electronic access to the entire letter via the Brepolis database and am wondering what you hope to accomplish by quoting this tiny fragment, as it mentions neither the killings of Christians nor the hope of an alliance. In addition, ought this not be included at Wikisource rather than as a Wikipedia article? I suspect that this is yet another Coatrack for your pet theory. Aramgar ( talk) 01:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to know what's wrong with creating an article on a Papal bull. There is even a category "Papal bulls" for that. The letter "Viam agnoscere veritatis" is mentionned in Roux, Histoire de l'Empire Mongol, p.316: "Sergis et Aibeg were finally sent back on November 22, 1248, with an answer, known as Viam agnoscere veritatis.". The content of the bull is given in Sandra Brand-Pierach, Ungläubige im Kirchenrecht, Text of the letter p.174 ( [1]). Runciman (p.259) is quoted for the fact that Aibeg and Sarkis returned to the Mongol realm in November 1248, with "complaints that nothing more was happening about the alliance". Grousset is quoted for the "message" (the here described bull) in which "he deplored "the delays to the general agreement between Mongols and Christiandom" ("Innocent IV congedia Aibag and Sargis en leur remettant pour Baiju une reponse dans laquelle il deplorait les retards apportes a une entente generale des Mongols et de la Chretiente."). Bottomline: Aibeg and Sargis were sent back with one message, known as Viam agnoscere veritatis (Roux). I am afraid you guys are starting to behave as stalkers. PHG ( talk) 07:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, after having gone spelunking through source documents, I think I've figured out what's going on, and I took a stab at untangling the article. Basically, it appears that "Viam agnoscere veritatis" is used to refer to multiple documents, at least three that I have identified so far. Two of them were the papal bulls issued in March 1245, March 5 March 13 and one, if I'm to believe Setton, [2] was the reply from Pope Innocent that was sent in 1248. The German dissertation that is sourced, though it calls the document "Viam agnoscere veritatis", is actually referring to the document that we already knew about, "Dei Patris Immensa", and this checks out from the source that was printed in the German dissertation, which matches the source document that is in the MGH. So I created some new sections, and moved the excerpt up into the "Dei patris immensa" section, and I think that straightens things out. I also removed some of the other sources, as we discussed above, which don't specifically mention which letter that they're talking about.
Now, I've done my best to sort things out in the article, though I think I may have been skating the edge of OR in places, since I'm basically saying that the German student got a title wrong. So if someone could please doublecheck what I've done, and let me know your thoughts, I would appreciate it. -- El on ka 00:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
According to I. de Rachewiltz’s Papal Envoys to the Great Khans (Stanford University Press, 1971), “Innocent sent a number of exploratory missions to the East a few months before the Council (of Lyons) was to meet” (p. 85). How many embassies did Innocent IV send to the Mongols in 1245?:
[Ascelinus' mission] lingered in Palestine for several months before sailing for Europe and were not back in Lyons until the late summer of 1248. Matthew Paris records in his chronicle the arrival of the Mongol envoys and the extreme secrecy which surrounded the purpose of their mission. Eventually, on 22 November, Innocent gave the two envoys his written reply to Baiju. In his letter the pontiff urged the Mongols to stop persevering in their errors and to end the slaughter, especially of Christians. There is not even a hint at a renewal of the dialogue with the Tartars. The papal missions may have been successful in collecting information on the Mongols, but they had not achieved their political and religious aims. There was, simply, no way of bridging the politico-religious ideology of the Mongols and that of the Church, both claiming to be universal and divinely inspired. Innocent, who had by now received all the reports from his envoys, recognized the impasse and rightly felt that this stage there was no point in pushing the negotiations further. Rachewiltz, p. 118
Aramgar ( talk) 22:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Innocentius IV, Epistolae
Epp. Saec. XIII, Vol. 2, Epist. 102, pag. 72, lin. 7 <...> regi et populo Tartarorum viam agnoscere veritatis. Dei patris inmensa benignitas humani generis casum, quod primi hominis culpa corruerat, ineffabili respiciens pietate, ac illum, quem diabolica prostravit invidia suggestione dolosa, volens ex caritate nimia misericorditer reparare, filium suum unigenitum, consubstantialem sibi, de celi excelso solio misit ad infimum mundi solum, qui preelecte virginis utero sancti Spiritus operatione conceptus et ibi veste carnis indutus humane indeque postmodum clausa materne porta virginitatis egressus, cunctis visibilem se ostendit. Humana enim natura, cum esset rationalis, erat eterna veritate tanquam optimo suo cibo pascenda; set pena peccati mortalibus detenta vinculis ad hoc est diminutionis redacta, ut per coniecturas rerum visibilium ad intelligenda invisibilia niteretur cibi rationalis. Creature ipsius conditor factus est visibilis habitu nostro non sine commutatione nature, ut visibilia sectantes ad se invisibilem, factus visibilis, revocaret, salubribus homines institutis informans, viamque vite ipsis perfecte indice doctrina demonstrans, dignatus est post sacre conversationis exempla et evangelice instructionis eloquia sub dire crucis supplicio mortem pati, ut penali vite presentis fine penam mortis perpetue, quam prothoplausti posteritas ipsius incurrerat transgressione, finiret, et de amaro sue mortis calice temporalis hauriret homo vite dulcedinem sempiterne. Mediatorem namque inter nos et Deum et mortalitatem habere oportuit transeuntem et beatitudinem permanentem, ut per id, quod transit, congrueret morituris, et ad id, quod permanet, ex mortuis nos transferret. Pro humani ergo redemptione generis se hostiam exhibens, illud, sue salutis hoste prostrato, de obprobrio servitutis eripuit ad gloriam libertatis, superne sibi patrie ostium reserando; et demum resurgens a mortuis ac in celum ascendens, vicarium sibi reliquit in terris, cui animarum curam, ut earum saluti, pro qua suam humiliaverat altitudinem, vigilanter intenderet et invigilaret attente, amoris eius constantia trine professionis argumento probata commisit, tradens sibi claves regni celorum, per quas ipse suique per eum successores potestatem aperiendi omnibus et claudendi eiusdem regni ianuam obtinerent. Unde predicti vicarii disponente Domino nos licet inmeriti successores effecti, super omnia que nobis ex iniuncto incumbunt officio, ad vestram aliorumque salutem nostre intentionis dirigimus aciem, ad hanc precipue mentis nostre destinamus affectum, circa eam diligenti studio et studiosa diligentia sedulo vigilantes, ut errantes in viam veritatis educere omnesque lucrifacere Deo, sua nobis cooperante gratia, valeamus. Verum quia humane conditionis renitente natura uno eodemque tempore diversis locis presentialiter adesse nequimus, ne ullatenus negligere videamur absentes, ad eos viros providos et discretos transmittimus vice nostra, ipsorum ministerio circa illos apostolice servitutis debitum exsolventes; propter quod ad vos dilectum filium fratrem Laurentium de Portugal. et socios eius latores presentium ordinis fratrum Minorum, viros religione conspicuos, honestate decoros et sacre scripture scientia preditos, ut ipsum Dei filium Iesum Christum salutaribus eorum eruditionibus agnoscentes, suum gloriosum nomen Christiane fidei observatione colatis, duximus destinandos. Ideoque universitatem vestram monemus, rogamus et hortamur attente, quatinus eosdem fratres pro divina et nostra reverentia, immo potius nos in ipsis, benigne recipientes et honeste tractantes, eis super hiis, que vobis ex parte nostra dixerint, fidem indubitatam adhibere velitis, et cum ipsis de predictis tractatum fructuosum habentes, provideatis eisdem in eundo et redeundo de securo conductu et aliis necessariis, ut ad presentiam nostram, cum voluerint, tute valeant remeare. Memoratos autem fratres, quos tamquam diu sub observantia regulari probatos et plene in scripturis sacris instructos inter alios preelegimus, quia utiliores vobis fore credidimus, tamquam salvatoris nostri humilitatem sectantes, ad vos duximus transmittendos, et si putassemus, quod fructuosiores et gratiosiores vobis existerent, vel aliquos ecclesiarum prelatos ad vos aut potentes alios misissemus.
Dat. Lugduni, III Non. Martii, anno II
Aramgar ( talk) 15:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Innocentius IV, Epistolae
Epp. Saec. XIII, Vol. 2, Epist. 105, pag. 75, lin. 6 <...> regi et populo Tartarorum viam agnoscere veritatis. Cum non solum homines verum etiam animalia irrationalia nec non ipsa mundialis elementa machine quadam nativi federis sint unione coniuncta, exemplo supernorum spirituum, quorum agmina universorum conditor Deus perpetua pacifici ordinis stabilitate distinxit, mirari non inmerito cogimur vehementer, quod vos, sicut audivimus, multas tam Christianorum quam aliorum regiones ingressi, horribili eas desolatione vastatis, et adhuc continuato furore depopulatrices manus ad ulteriores extendere non cessantes, soluto cognationis vinculo naturalis, nec sexui nec etati parcendo, in omnes indifferenter animadversionis gladio desevitis. Nos igitur, pacifici regis exemplo cunctos in unitate pacis sub Dei timore vivere cupientes, universitatem vestram monemus, rogamus et hortamur attente, quatinus ab impugnationibus huiusmodi et maxime Christianorum persecutionibus de cetero penitus desistentes, super tot et tantis offensis divine maiestatis iram, quam ipsarum exacerbatione vos non est dubium graviter provocasse, per condigne satisfactionem penitentie complacetis; nec ex eo sumere debetis audatiam amplius seviendi, quod in alios potentie vestre furente mucrone omnipotens dominus diversas ante faciem vestram substerni permisit hactenus nationes, qui nonnunquam superbos in hoc seculo corripere ad tempus ideo pretermittit, ut si humiliari neglexerint per se ipsos, eorum nequitiam et punire temporaliter non postponat et nichilominus in futuro gravius ulciscatur. Et ecce dilectum filium fratrem I. et socios eius latores presentium, viros religione conspicuos, honestate decoros et sacre scripture scientia preditos, ad vos propter hoc duximus destinandos, quos pro divina reverentia, immo potius nos in ipsis, benigne recipiatis et honorifice pertractetis, fidem eis super hiis, que vobis ex parte nostra dixerint, adhibendo, et cum ipsis super predictis et specialiter de hiis que ad pacem pertinent tractatum fructuosum habentes, nobis, quid vos ad gentium exterminium moverit aliarum et quid ulterius intendatis, per eosdem fratres plenarie intimetis, providendo ipsis in eundo et redeundo de securo conductu et aliis necessariis, ut ad presentiam nostram tute valeant remeare. Memoratos autem fratres, quos etc. ut in proxima usque: alios misissemus.
Dat. Lugduni, III Idus Martii, anno secundo.
Aramgar ( talk) 01:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Les registres d'Innocent IV publiés ou analysés d'après les manuscrits
originaux du Vatican et de la Bibliothèque nationale, par Élie Berger , II (Paris, 1887), no. 4682, pp. 113-114.
Bayonoy regi illustri, et nobilibus viris universis principibus et baronibus exercitus Tartarorum, viam cognoscere veritatis. Nuntios vestros, quos ad nostram presentiam destinastis, benigne recepimus, et ea que significastis nobis per ipsos intelleximus diligenter. Sane locum Dei licet immeriti , tenentes in terris, omnium salutem gentium ex imposito nobis officio quanta possumus vigilantia procurare debemus, ut quelibet rationalis creatura in mortali vivens corpore ad sui notitiam perveniat Creatoris, ipsumque fide sequens et opere possit secum post vite presentis curricula conregnare. Unde nos olim ne salutem vestram, licet in remotis agatis partibus, negligere videamur, nuntios nostros ad vos destinavimus, ut exponentes vobis fidem veram et rectam a mortis devio vos retraherent, et in viam vite dirigerent et salutis. Sed cum, nondum fidei Christiane illustrati lumine, adhuc in tenebris ignorantie ambuletis, Creatorem, Redemptorem et Salvatorem omnium Dei Filium Jhesum Christum minime agnoscentes, tanto de hoc (novit ipse Salvator) majori dolore turbamur intrinsecus, quanto per id gravius vobis imminere cognoscimus periculum animarum, presertim cum exposita iam vobis salutifere fidei veritate non possitis ulterius apud Deum super illius ignorantia excusari, nec de virium robore per quas multas hominum nationes permittente Domino superastis insultanter gloriari debetis, sed potius coram eo humiliare vos ipsos, et recognoscere multam patientiam ejus, qui tamdiu in vestris noxiis desideriis et actibus toleravit, expectando benigne ut errorum semitas relinquentes ad tramitem convertamini veritatis, propter quod recte formidare potestis ne in vos, si suam non agnoscatis omnipotentiam, sue flagellum iracundie tanquam nimium provocatus immittat. Ideoque nobilitatem vestram monemus, hortamur et sicut possumus obsecramus quatinus nostris salutaribus acquiescentes consiliis, et de profectu animarum vestrarum provide cogitantes, vias ad eternum ducentes interitum deseratis, aggredientes rectum iter per quod ad perempnis vite gaudia, duce ipso Christo Dei Filio qui vita et salus est omnium, pervenitur, et ut vobis ad habendam agnitionem omnium Conditoris gressus expeditior tribuatur, desistatis deinceps in cedem hominum, et maxime Cristianorum, exertum jamdudum dire persecutionis gladium exercere; abstinendo namque a talibus, que graviter oculos divine majestatis offendunt, facilius profecto ipsius gratiam et misericordiam poteritis invenire. Dat. Lugduni, x kalendas decembris, anno VI.
Aramgar ( talk) 03:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a faithful summary, not an exact translation. If you should have questions about words, phrases, meaning, or nuance; please feel free to ask. I would be happy to discuss these with you.
Are the disputes over yet ? There has been no edits to the article for almost 2 days. Can the {{ disputed}} tag be removed ? This article is a DYK candidate. I would like to know if it's ready to be featured on MainPage yet? Thanks. -- PFHLai ( talk) 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I may have missed the answer to this somewhere above..but was it ever determined whether these are letters, or bulls? They are quite distinct - a papal letter is just a letter from a pope, which, while important, didn't have the same force as a bull. Adam Bishop ( talk) 13:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Numerous authors write about the 1248 letter given to Aibeg and Sarkis:
... are all of these historians wrong about the content of the 1248 letter? PHG ( talk) 09:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Where does the assertion come from that there were 3 letters called Viam Agnoscere Veritatis? There is visibly no reference in the article for this statement. I re-read the account by Jean-Paul Roux “Les Explorateurs au Moyen-Age”, and he clearly names three different letters by Nicholas IV to the Mongols, and he only mentions one Viam Agnoscere Veritatis. He clearly names the letters as:
Is there any scholar who actually says there were 3 Viam Agnoscere Veritatis letters?? If so, is it even a mainstream assertion, or just a confusion by one author? Alternatively, is it just an original research statement? A few contributors have strongly criticized me for speaking about one “Viam Agnoscere Veritatis” and claimed there were actually three, but from the sources I have access to there was only one such named letter indeed (Roux). I checked on Google book, and there is not a single reference for "three Viam agnoscere veritatis". It would also seem that "Viam cognoscere veritatis" is never used as a name for the third letter. Please advise. PHG ( talk) 18:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The bottom line is that apparently no historian has ever talked about 3 "Viam agnoscere veritatis" letters. This turns out to be an interpretation made by a few editors here, based on their personal reading of the first words of the letters sent by Innocent IV to the Mongols. Historians however take great care in naming the three letters differently, precisely I suppose because they start with the same words. The three names used for these letters are (Referenced from Roux):
We should therefore have one article for each letter, as is typical for Papal bulls (see Exultavit cor nostrum). I am also asking the various contributors who accused me of "misrepresention", claiming that "there were several Viam agnioscere veritatis letters rather than just one" (which I had created this article about), to retract themselves and correct their accusations on various pages (especially Evidence and Workshop pages on Arbcom). Regards PHG ( talk) 14:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
In order to deal with the above-mentioned forks, here is my recommendation for how to proceed:
Sound good? -- El on ka 22:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys, you have been virulently accusing me of writing about the Viam agnoscere veritatis letter, by claiming that there were actually several such letters. Your claim was actually untrue: Cum non solum is only called "Cum non solum", after the incipit of the letter (see [15]), and Dei patris immensa is only called "Dei patris immensa" for the same reason(see [16]). And the only letter to be called Viam agnoscere veritatis is the 1248 letter. This is also what all historians say [17]. It's OK really, anybody can make mistakes, but I am only asking you that you properly retract the accusations you have made against me on this subject. Please be honest enough to <strike></strike> these accusations on the Evidence and Workshop page of Arbcom. Thank you. PHG ( talk) 21:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
(note: there is also discussion about this at Talk:Viam agnoscere veritatis (disambiguation), but to avoid further confusion, I recommend that we keep the threads here) -- El on ka 21:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
So, the bottom line is that nobody has been able to find a single source to back up the claim that "The name Viam agnoscere veritatis may refer to one of the following papal communications from Pope Innocent IV to the Mongols in the 13th century: Cum non solum, Dei patris immensa, Viam agnoscere veritatis". Unreferenced claims can be deleted per Wikipedia rules. I suggest an alternative: if editors feel confusion can arise and some sort of clarification is needed, I suggest we rename Viam agnoscere veritatis (disambiguation) to Letters of Innocent IV to the Mongols, and that the line on top of each article be: For other letters by Innocent IV to the Mongols, see Letters by Innocent IV to the Mongols. Lastly, I am asking the various contributors here who criticized my creation of Viam agnoscere veritatis on the ground that there were several such-named letters, to retract their accusations on Evidence and Workshop at the Arbcom page. No big issue, no bad thoughts, just a regularization which I think is legitimate. Regards to all. PHG ( talk) 09:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what the argument actually is here; really, none of the letters should actually be called "viam agnoscere veritatis." That's part of the address, it's just the reason the letters are being sent - so the recipient will acknowledge Christianity as the true faith. It's possible that they weren't even part of the original letters, they may have been added by a compiler later. The incipits are Dei inmensa patris, Nuntios vestros, and Cum non solum. It's not really accurate to say they can all be referred to as "viam agnoscere"; if anything you could say this is a certain style of papal letter which extends far beyond the Mongols (check it out on Google, there is one to a Byzantine emperor as well). It sounds like the phrase may be a Biblical quote, not original to papal letters at all. But let's not create yet another coatrack article (or whatever they are called) specifically for letters to the Mongols, that would be silly and unnecessary. I don't even know what to conclude from all this; everyone is wrong and right simultaneously? Adam Bishop ( talk) 03:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) RE: Adam Bishop's comment here and other issues of substance from recent threads. I too have found a few other papal letters using the phrase viam agnoscere veritatis and a possible explanation: Thomas of Capua, a 13th century Archbishop of Naples and author of a manual of style entitled Ars dicaminis, provides a list of stock phrases that might be added to the salutation of papal letters addressed to pagans and the excommunicated. Among several choices is redire ad cor et viam agnoscere veritatis, or "[that they may] return to the heart and acknowledge the way of truth" [29]. This, of course, is original research, and I in no way advocate writing an article about this phrase. I would suggest, however, that we not call the 22 November 1248 letter Nuntios vestros, as there is no evidence of anyone calling it this and the phrase "Your messengers" does not seem to me unique enough to make a good shorthand incipit. This is perhaps the reason why some scholars have referred to this letter as Viam agnoscere veritatis. The fact remains that all three of the letters of Innocent IV to the Mongols begin viam agnoscere veritatis or viam cognoscere veritatis. They are a related group, and that they begin with the same or a similar phrase added to the salutatio is significant. Aramgar ( talk) 22:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I find the above arguments about incipits somewhat puzzling. If "Cum non solum" and "Dei patris immensa" are called by their incipits, then shouldn't the Nov. 22 letter be called "Nuntios vestros quos ad nostram"? Because the phrase "viam agnoscere veritatis" in the Nov. 22 letter is parallel to its use in "cum non solum" and "dei patris immensa"--it's part of the salutation, not the body of the letter. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
«Bayonoy regi illustri, et nobilibus viris universis principibus et baronibus exercitus Tartarorum, viam cognoscere veritatis. Nuntios vestros, quos ad nostram presentiam destinastis, benigne recepimus, et ea que significastis nobis per ipsos intelleximus diligenter....
I suggest that this article be renamed. References supporting the fact that this letter is known as Viam agnoscere veritatis are rather few and given the pending ArbCom finding that PHG has manipulated and misrepresented sources, I think one must question whether this really is generally known by that name. I read Adam Bishop's comments above to mean that this phrase is fairly commonly used in such correspondence and that he doesn't think any of the letters should be under this title. Ideally, it seems to me that "Viam agnoscere veritatis" should be an article about the phrase, its use and history (or even a redirect to a Wiktionary page about it) and that the three letters should be under appropriate names. Are there other possible titles for this article? WjB scribe 13:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me see if I can consolidate the different things running around so we can develop a consensus on where to go from here. The original article confused several letters, however, it would appear that it was an error on the editor's part and not just general confusion about these letters. Since articles now exist for the three letters in question, would it make sense to move the VAV letter back here? PHG has shown at least a couple of instances where scholars do name the letter "Viam agnoscere veritatis" - I think we agree that this probably shouldn't be the name, but do we have any sources that conflict this or give a different name for the 1248 letter? Shell babelfish 15:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
I have strong concerns about the sources on this article. Right now it lists:
Well, I've checked Runciman, and there's no mention of this "Viam agnoscere veritatis" on that page. I've also checked Wilkinson, and ditto, no mention. Both do discuss papal communications, but the popes sent multiple communications, and I see nothing to confirm just which letter exactly was being discussed.
PHG, can you please explain? -- El on ka 23:36, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
PHG: I have electronic access to the entire letter via the Brepolis database and am wondering what you hope to accomplish by quoting this tiny fragment, as it mentions neither the killings of Christians nor the hope of an alliance. In addition, ought this not be included at Wikisource rather than as a Wikipedia article? I suspect that this is yet another Coatrack for your pet theory. Aramgar ( talk) 01:21, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I'd love to know what's wrong with creating an article on a Papal bull. There is even a category "Papal bulls" for that. The letter "Viam agnoscere veritatis" is mentionned in Roux, Histoire de l'Empire Mongol, p.316: "Sergis et Aibeg were finally sent back on November 22, 1248, with an answer, known as Viam agnoscere veritatis.". The content of the bull is given in Sandra Brand-Pierach, Ungläubige im Kirchenrecht, Text of the letter p.174 ( [1]). Runciman (p.259) is quoted for the fact that Aibeg and Sarkis returned to the Mongol realm in November 1248, with "complaints that nothing more was happening about the alliance". Grousset is quoted for the "message" (the here described bull) in which "he deplored "the delays to the general agreement between Mongols and Christiandom" ("Innocent IV congedia Aibag and Sargis en leur remettant pour Baiju une reponse dans laquelle il deplorait les retards apportes a une entente generale des Mongols et de la Chretiente."). Bottomline: Aibeg and Sargis were sent back with one message, known as Viam agnoscere veritatis (Roux). I am afraid you guys are starting to behave as stalkers. PHG ( talk) 07:59, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Okay, after having gone spelunking through source documents, I think I've figured out what's going on, and I took a stab at untangling the article. Basically, it appears that "Viam agnoscere veritatis" is used to refer to multiple documents, at least three that I have identified so far. Two of them were the papal bulls issued in March 1245, March 5 March 13 and one, if I'm to believe Setton, [2] was the reply from Pope Innocent that was sent in 1248. The German dissertation that is sourced, though it calls the document "Viam agnoscere veritatis", is actually referring to the document that we already knew about, "Dei Patris Immensa", and this checks out from the source that was printed in the German dissertation, which matches the source document that is in the MGH. So I created some new sections, and moved the excerpt up into the "Dei patris immensa" section, and I think that straightens things out. I also removed some of the other sources, as we discussed above, which don't specifically mention which letter that they're talking about.
Now, I've done my best to sort things out in the article, though I think I may have been skating the edge of OR in places, since I'm basically saying that the German student got a title wrong. So if someone could please doublecheck what I've done, and let me know your thoughts, I would appreciate it. -- El on ka 00:55, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
According to I. de Rachewiltz’s Papal Envoys to the Great Khans (Stanford University Press, 1971), “Innocent sent a number of exploratory missions to the East a few months before the Council (of Lyons) was to meet” (p. 85). How many embassies did Innocent IV send to the Mongols in 1245?:
[Ascelinus' mission] lingered in Palestine for several months before sailing for Europe and were not back in Lyons until the late summer of 1248. Matthew Paris records in his chronicle the arrival of the Mongol envoys and the extreme secrecy which surrounded the purpose of their mission. Eventually, on 22 November, Innocent gave the two envoys his written reply to Baiju. In his letter the pontiff urged the Mongols to stop persevering in their errors and to end the slaughter, especially of Christians. There is not even a hint at a renewal of the dialogue with the Tartars. The papal missions may have been successful in collecting information on the Mongols, but they had not achieved their political and religious aims. There was, simply, no way of bridging the politico-religious ideology of the Mongols and that of the Church, both claiming to be universal and divinely inspired. Innocent, who had by now received all the reports from his envoys, recognized the impasse and rightly felt that this stage there was no point in pushing the negotiations further. Rachewiltz, p. 118
Aramgar ( talk) 22:04, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Innocentius IV, Epistolae
Epp. Saec. XIII, Vol. 2, Epist. 102, pag. 72, lin. 7 <...> regi et populo Tartarorum viam agnoscere veritatis. Dei patris inmensa benignitas humani generis casum, quod primi hominis culpa corruerat, ineffabili respiciens pietate, ac illum, quem diabolica prostravit invidia suggestione dolosa, volens ex caritate nimia misericorditer reparare, filium suum unigenitum, consubstantialem sibi, de celi excelso solio misit ad infimum mundi solum, qui preelecte virginis utero sancti Spiritus operatione conceptus et ibi veste carnis indutus humane indeque postmodum clausa materne porta virginitatis egressus, cunctis visibilem se ostendit. Humana enim natura, cum esset rationalis, erat eterna veritate tanquam optimo suo cibo pascenda; set pena peccati mortalibus detenta vinculis ad hoc est diminutionis redacta, ut per coniecturas rerum visibilium ad intelligenda invisibilia niteretur cibi rationalis. Creature ipsius conditor factus est visibilis habitu nostro non sine commutatione nature, ut visibilia sectantes ad se invisibilem, factus visibilis, revocaret, salubribus homines institutis informans, viamque vite ipsis perfecte indice doctrina demonstrans, dignatus est post sacre conversationis exempla et evangelice instructionis eloquia sub dire crucis supplicio mortem pati, ut penali vite presentis fine penam mortis perpetue, quam prothoplausti posteritas ipsius incurrerat transgressione, finiret, et de amaro sue mortis calice temporalis hauriret homo vite dulcedinem sempiterne. Mediatorem namque inter nos et Deum et mortalitatem habere oportuit transeuntem et beatitudinem permanentem, ut per id, quod transit, congrueret morituris, et ad id, quod permanet, ex mortuis nos transferret. Pro humani ergo redemptione generis se hostiam exhibens, illud, sue salutis hoste prostrato, de obprobrio servitutis eripuit ad gloriam libertatis, superne sibi patrie ostium reserando; et demum resurgens a mortuis ac in celum ascendens, vicarium sibi reliquit in terris, cui animarum curam, ut earum saluti, pro qua suam humiliaverat altitudinem, vigilanter intenderet et invigilaret attente, amoris eius constantia trine professionis argumento probata commisit, tradens sibi claves regni celorum, per quas ipse suique per eum successores potestatem aperiendi omnibus et claudendi eiusdem regni ianuam obtinerent. Unde predicti vicarii disponente Domino nos licet inmeriti successores effecti, super omnia que nobis ex iniuncto incumbunt officio, ad vestram aliorumque salutem nostre intentionis dirigimus aciem, ad hanc precipue mentis nostre destinamus affectum, circa eam diligenti studio et studiosa diligentia sedulo vigilantes, ut errantes in viam veritatis educere omnesque lucrifacere Deo, sua nobis cooperante gratia, valeamus. Verum quia humane conditionis renitente natura uno eodemque tempore diversis locis presentialiter adesse nequimus, ne ullatenus negligere videamur absentes, ad eos viros providos et discretos transmittimus vice nostra, ipsorum ministerio circa illos apostolice servitutis debitum exsolventes; propter quod ad vos dilectum filium fratrem Laurentium de Portugal. et socios eius latores presentium ordinis fratrum Minorum, viros religione conspicuos, honestate decoros et sacre scripture scientia preditos, ut ipsum Dei filium Iesum Christum salutaribus eorum eruditionibus agnoscentes, suum gloriosum nomen Christiane fidei observatione colatis, duximus destinandos. Ideoque universitatem vestram monemus, rogamus et hortamur attente, quatinus eosdem fratres pro divina et nostra reverentia, immo potius nos in ipsis, benigne recipientes et honeste tractantes, eis super hiis, que vobis ex parte nostra dixerint, fidem indubitatam adhibere velitis, et cum ipsis de predictis tractatum fructuosum habentes, provideatis eisdem in eundo et redeundo de securo conductu et aliis necessariis, ut ad presentiam nostram, cum voluerint, tute valeant remeare. Memoratos autem fratres, quos tamquam diu sub observantia regulari probatos et plene in scripturis sacris instructos inter alios preelegimus, quia utiliores vobis fore credidimus, tamquam salvatoris nostri humilitatem sectantes, ad vos duximus transmittendos, et si putassemus, quod fructuosiores et gratiosiores vobis existerent, vel aliquos ecclesiarum prelatos ad vos aut potentes alios misissemus.
Dat. Lugduni, III Non. Martii, anno II
Aramgar ( talk) 15:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Innocentius IV, Epistolae
Epp. Saec. XIII, Vol. 2, Epist. 105, pag. 75, lin. 6 <...> regi et populo Tartarorum viam agnoscere veritatis. Cum non solum homines verum etiam animalia irrationalia nec non ipsa mundialis elementa machine quadam nativi federis sint unione coniuncta, exemplo supernorum spirituum, quorum agmina universorum conditor Deus perpetua pacifici ordinis stabilitate distinxit, mirari non inmerito cogimur vehementer, quod vos, sicut audivimus, multas tam Christianorum quam aliorum regiones ingressi, horribili eas desolatione vastatis, et adhuc continuato furore depopulatrices manus ad ulteriores extendere non cessantes, soluto cognationis vinculo naturalis, nec sexui nec etati parcendo, in omnes indifferenter animadversionis gladio desevitis. Nos igitur, pacifici regis exemplo cunctos in unitate pacis sub Dei timore vivere cupientes, universitatem vestram monemus, rogamus et hortamur attente, quatinus ab impugnationibus huiusmodi et maxime Christianorum persecutionibus de cetero penitus desistentes, super tot et tantis offensis divine maiestatis iram, quam ipsarum exacerbatione vos non est dubium graviter provocasse, per condigne satisfactionem penitentie complacetis; nec ex eo sumere debetis audatiam amplius seviendi, quod in alios potentie vestre furente mucrone omnipotens dominus diversas ante faciem vestram substerni permisit hactenus nationes, qui nonnunquam superbos in hoc seculo corripere ad tempus ideo pretermittit, ut si humiliari neglexerint per se ipsos, eorum nequitiam et punire temporaliter non postponat et nichilominus in futuro gravius ulciscatur. Et ecce dilectum filium fratrem I. et socios eius latores presentium, viros religione conspicuos, honestate decoros et sacre scripture scientia preditos, ad vos propter hoc duximus destinandos, quos pro divina reverentia, immo potius nos in ipsis, benigne recipiatis et honorifice pertractetis, fidem eis super hiis, que vobis ex parte nostra dixerint, adhibendo, et cum ipsis super predictis et specialiter de hiis que ad pacem pertinent tractatum fructuosum habentes, nobis, quid vos ad gentium exterminium moverit aliarum et quid ulterius intendatis, per eosdem fratres plenarie intimetis, providendo ipsis in eundo et redeundo de securo conductu et aliis necessariis, ut ad presentiam nostram tute valeant remeare. Memoratos autem fratres, quos etc. ut in proxima usque: alios misissemus.
Dat. Lugduni, III Idus Martii, anno secundo.
Aramgar ( talk) 01:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Les registres d'Innocent IV publiés ou analysés d'après les manuscrits
originaux du Vatican et de la Bibliothèque nationale, par Élie Berger , II (Paris, 1887), no. 4682, pp. 113-114.
Bayonoy regi illustri, et nobilibus viris universis principibus et baronibus exercitus Tartarorum, viam cognoscere veritatis. Nuntios vestros, quos ad nostram presentiam destinastis, benigne recepimus, et ea que significastis nobis per ipsos intelleximus diligenter. Sane locum Dei licet immeriti , tenentes in terris, omnium salutem gentium ex imposito nobis officio quanta possumus vigilantia procurare debemus, ut quelibet rationalis creatura in mortali vivens corpore ad sui notitiam perveniat Creatoris, ipsumque fide sequens et opere possit secum post vite presentis curricula conregnare. Unde nos olim ne salutem vestram, licet in remotis agatis partibus, negligere videamur, nuntios nostros ad vos destinavimus, ut exponentes vobis fidem veram et rectam a mortis devio vos retraherent, et in viam vite dirigerent et salutis. Sed cum, nondum fidei Christiane illustrati lumine, adhuc in tenebris ignorantie ambuletis, Creatorem, Redemptorem et Salvatorem omnium Dei Filium Jhesum Christum minime agnoscentes, tanto de hoc (novit ipse Salvator) majori dolore turbamur intrinsecus, quanto per id gravius vobis imminere cognoscimus periculum animarum, presertim cum exposita iam vobis salutifere fidei veritate non possitis ulterius apud Deum super illius ignorantia excusari, nec de virium robore per quas multas hominum nationes permittente Domino superastis insultanter gloriari debetis, sed potius coram eo humiliare vos ipsos, et recognoscere multam patientiam ejus, qui tamdiu in vestris noxiis desideriis et actibus toleravit, expectando benigne ut errorum semitas relinquentes ad tramitem convertamini veritatis, propter quod recte formidare potestis ne in vos, si suam non agnoscatis omnipotentiam, sue flagellum iracundie tanquam nimium provocatus immittat. Ideoque nobilitatem vestram monemus, hortamur et sicut possumus obsecramus quatinus nostris salutaribus acquiescentes consiliis, et de profectu animarum vestrarum provide cogitantes, vias ad eternum ducentes interitum deseratis, aggredientes rectum iter per quod ad perempnis vite gaudia, duce ipso Christo Dei Filio qui vita et salus est omnium, pervenitur, et ut vobis ad habendam agnitionem omnium Conditoris gressus expeditior tribuatur, desistatis deinceps in cedem hominum, et maxime Cristianorum, exertum jamdudum dire persecutionis gladium exercere; abstinendo namque a talibus, que graviter oculos divine majestatis offendunt, facilius profecto ipsius gratiam et misericordiam poteritis invenire. Dat. Lugduni, x kalendas decembris, anno VI.
Aramgar ( talk) 03:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
This is a faithful summary, not an exact translation. If you should have questions about words, phrases, meaning, or nuance; please feel free to ask. I would be happy to discuss these with you.
Are the disputes over yet ? There has been no edits to the article for almost 2 days. Can the {{ disputed}} tag be removed ? This article is a DYK candidate. I would like to know if it's ready to be featured on MainPage yet? Thanks. -- PFHLai ( talk) 19:38, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
I may have missed the answer to this somewhere above..but was it ever determined whether these are letters, or bulls? They are quite distinct - a papal letter is just a letter from a pope, which, while important, didn't have the same force as a bull. Adam Bishop ( talk) 13:25, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Numerous authors write about the 1248 letter given to Aibeg and Sarkis:
... are all of these historians wrong about the content of the 1248 letter? PHG ( talk) 09:24, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Where does the assertion come from that there were 3 letters called Viam Agnoscere Veritatis? There is visibly no reference in the article for this statement. I re-read the account by Jean-Paul Roux “Les Explorateurs au Moyen-Age”, and he clearly names three different letters by Nicholas IV to the Mongols, and he only mentions one Viam Agnoscere Veritatis. He clearly names the letters as:
Is there any scholar who actually says there were 3 Viam Agnoscere Veritatis letters?? If so, is it even a mainstream assertion, or just a confusion by one author? Alternatively, is it just an original research statement? A few contributors have strongly criticized me for speaking about one “Viam Agnoscere Veritatis” and claimed there were actually three, but from the sources I have access to there was only one such named letter indeed (Roux). I checked on Google book, and there is not a single reference for "three Viam agnoscere veritatis". It would also seem that "Viam cognoscere veritatis" is never used as a name for the third letter. Please advise. PHG ( talk) 18:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
The bottom line is that apparently no historian has ever talked about 3 "Viam agnoscere veritatis" letters. This turns out to be an interpretation made by a few editors here, based on their personal reading of the first words of the letters sent by Innocent IV to the Mongols. Historians however take great care in naming the three letters differently, precisely I suppose because they start with the same words. The three names used for these letters are (Referenced from Roux):
We should therefore have one article for each letter, as is typical for Papal bulls (see Exultavit cor nostrum). I am also asking the various contributors who accused me of "misrepresention", claiming that "there were several Viam agnioscere veritatis letters rather than just one" (which I had created this article about), to retract themselves and correct their accusations on various pages (especially Evidence and Workshop pages on Arbcom). Regards PHG ( talk) 14:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
In order to deal with the above-mentioned forks, here is my recommendation for how to proceed:
Sound good? -- El on ka 22:07, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Guys, you have been virulently accusing me of writing about the Viam agnoscere veritatis letter, by claiming that there were actually several such letters. Your claim was actually untrue: Cum non solum is only called "Cum non solum", after the incipit of the letter (see [15]), and Dei patris immensa is only called "Dei patris immensa" for the same reason(see [16]). And the only letter to be called Viam agnoscere veritatis is the 1248 letter. This is also what all historians say [17]. It's OK really, anybody can make mistakes, but I am only asking you that you properly retract the accusations you have made against me on this subject. Please be honest enough to <strike></strike> these accusations on the Evidence and Workshop page of Arbcom. Thank you. PHG ( talk) 21:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
(note: there is also discussion about this at Talk:Viam agnoscere veritatis (disambiguation), but to avoid further confusion, I recommend that we keep the threads here) -- El on ka 21:58, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
So, the bottom line is that nobody has been able to find a single source to back up the claim that "The name Viam agnoscere veritatis may refer to one of the following papal communications from Pope Innocent IV to the Mongols in the 13th century: Cum non solum, Dei patris immensa, Viam agnoscere veritatis". Unreferenced claims can be deleted per Wikipedia rules. I suggest an alternative: if editors feel confusion can arise and some sort of clarification is needed, I suggest we rename Viam agnoscere veritatis (disambiguation) to Letters of Innocent IV to the Mongols, and that the line on top of each article be: For other letters by Innocent IV to the Mongols, see Letters by Innocent IV to the Mongols. Lastly, I am asking the various contributors here who criticized my creation of Viam agnoscere veritatis on the ground that there were several such-named letters, to retract their accusations on Evidence and Workshop at the Arbcom page. No big issue, no bad thoughts, just a regularization which I think is legitimate. Regards to all. PHG ( talk) 09:01, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not quite sure what the argument actually is here; really, none of the letters should actually be called "viam agnoscere veritatis." That's part of the address, it's just the reason the letters are being sent - so the recipient will acknowledge Christianity as the true faith. It's possible that they weren't even part of the original letters, they may have been added by a compiler later. The incipits are Dei inmensa patris, Nuntios vestros, and Cum non solum. It's not really accurate to say they can all be referred to as "viam agnoscere"; if anything you could say this is a certain style of papal letter which extends far beyond the Mongols (check it out on Google, there is one to a Byzantine emperor as well). It sounds like the phrase may be a Biblical quote, not original to papal letters at all. But let's not create yet another coatrack article (or whatever they are called) specifically for letters to the Mongols, that would be silly and unnecessary. I don't even know what to conclude from all this; everyone is wrong and right simultaneously? Adam Bishop ( talk) 03:10, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) RE: Adam Bishop's comment here and other issues of substance from recent threads. I too have found a few other papal letters using the phrase viam agnoscere veritatis and a possible explanation: Thomas of Capua, a 13th century Archbishop of Naples and author of a manual of style entitled Ars dicaminis, provides a list of stock phrases that might be added to the salutation of papal letters addressed to pagans and the excommunicated. Among several choices is redire ad cor et viam agnoscere veritatis, or "[that they may] return to the heart and acknowledge the way of truth" [29]. This, of course, is original research, and I in no way advocate writing an article about this phrase. I would suggest, however, that we not call the 22 November 1248 letter Nuntios vestros, as there is no evidence of anyone calling it this and the phrase "Your messengers" does not seem to me unique enough to make a good shorthand incipit. This is perhaps the reason why some scholars have referred to this letter as Viam agnoscere veritatis. The fact remains that all three of the letters of Innocent IV to the Mongols begin viam agnoscere veritatis or viam cognoscere veritatis. They are a related group, and that they begin with the same or a similar phrase added to the salutatio is significant. Aramgar ( talk) 22:15, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
I find the above arguments about incipits somewhat puzzling. If "Cum non solum" and "Dei patris immensa" are called by their incipits, then shouldn't the Nov. 22 letter be called "Nuntios vestros quos ad nostram"? Because the phrase "viam agnoscere veritatis" in the Nov. 22 letter is parallel to its use in "cum non solum" and "dei patris immensa"--it's part of the salutation, not the body of the letter. --Akhilleus ( talk) 04:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
«Bayonoy regi illustri, et nobilibus viris universis principibus et baronibus exercitus Tartarorum, viam cognoscere veritatis. Nuntios vestros, quos ad nostram presentiam destinastis, benigne recepimus, et ea que significastis nobis per ipsos intelleximus diligenter....
I suggest that this article be renamed. References supporting the fact that this letter is known as Viam agnoscere veritatis are rather few and given the pending ArbCom finding that PHG has manipulated and misrepresented sources, I think one must question whether this really is generally known by that name. I read Adam Bishop's comments above to mean that this phrase is fairly commonly used in such correspondence and that he doesn't think any of the letters should be under this title. Ideally, it seems to me that "Viam agnoscere veritatis" should be an article about the phrase, its use and history (or even a redirect to a Wiktionary page about it) and that the three letters should be under appropriate names. Are there other possible titles for this article? WjB scribe 13:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Let me see if I can consolidate the different things running around so we can develop a consensus on where to go from here. The original article confused several letters, however, it would appear that it was an error on the editor's part and not just general confusion about these letters. Since articles now exist for the three letters in question, would it make sense to move the VAV letter back here? PHG has shown at least a couple of instances where scholars do name the letter "Viam agnoscere veritatis" - I think we agree that this probably shouldn't be the name, but do we have any sources that conflict this or give a different name for the 1248 letter? Shell babelfish 15:50, 11 March 2008 (UTC)