Vestigiality was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
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To-do list for Vestigiality:
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/Archive 01 - 18:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC) |
The Good article nomination for Vestigiality has failed, for the following reason(s):
I see no problem with the bullet list; this is GA, not FAC. Great content, fully cited, licensed photos... we have a winner. Kafziel 16:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I've delisted the article for the following reasons:
the whales pelvis are really bones which have anchor points to muscles that whales use during sex and giving birth they need them becasue they are large animals the human appendix has a funtion and is part of your immune system and humans need thier tail bone for walking with more ease and has nerves going out of it
Its not a lie. The article just needs rewritten to state that they were developing leg bones and are now used for the reproductive system. Rather than saying they're entirely useless. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HabeoPhaIemMaximum (
talk •
contribs) 16:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
It is erroneous to cite the appendix as a vestigial organ when we now know that it serves a biological function (i.e. a reservoir for beneficial bacteria). The article first cites it as a vestigial organ, then equivocates, suggesting the appendix might have a purpose after all. That’s a poor example of a vestigial organ. Worse yet, earlier the article clearly states that: “care must be taken not to apply the label of vestigiality to exaptation, in which a structure originally used for one purpose is modified for a new one.” The reader is left with the impression that “the author” has failed to take his own advice. The section should be rewritten to say that while the appendix is often cited as a vestigial organ, it is in fact an example of exaptation. (The reference to the appendix shouldn’t be removed because it is bound to be reintroduced at a latter time by someone else who is under the common misconception that it is a vestigial organ.) – Rainy Day ( talk) 22:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
According to new research on 'blind' mole rats ( http://www.livescience.com/8468-blind-mole-rats-study-confirms.html), their eyes are functional and do not provide a good example of vestigiality. Someone please correct this erroneous and outdated reference to blind mole rats. They may have poorly functioning eyes, but these eyes have now been shown to be used by the mole rats. Please check the latest research (rather than just highly outdated books written in the 1800's) before posting things on Wikipedia. Thanks. – MathMan141 ( talk) 18:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
"(It should be noted that his comment on nature not making rapid jumps is now considered out of date according Stephen Jay Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium. However the majority of his argument still stands in modern evolutionary theory)"
I removed this for several reasons. Firstly, we've taken great care to cite as much as we can in this article, and this isn't fully cited, although that can easily be fixed. More importantly, it drops what I gather is still a disputed theory in as established, and I'm not sure it really belongs in this section. I'm not trying to get rid of the information, but I'm not sure it belongs here. Skittle 11:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
The clitoris in females and the nipples of males are NOT vestigial, for male nipples never had the function of nursing young, and the clitoris never had the function of a penis. Instead, these are anatomical traits that are formed in an embyro before sexual differentiation occurs. The paragraphs refering to these as vestigial should be removed!!!
The information on this page is very inaccurate. I have taught anatomy at the college level including at the graduate level for over 20 years and not one text book that we have used, or I have reviewed, agree with the section on human anatomy in this article. I have tried to correct this article but my corrections were removed. I now inform students that I will not accept references to this web site on term papers. It seems that Darwinists have little concern for accuracy, but only indoctrination into their world view.
Since I also teach A&P, I thought I would weigh in on this. It does not matter what one believes about human vestigial organs, but what the empirical research says. If students started their research with this web article on vestigial organs, and they did their homework, they would find that most everything in the section about humans is wrong. Then they would conclude that Wikipedia is a worthless resource. I should note that one study found that Wikipedia was more accurate then the Encyclopedia Britannica. In this case they are correct. The 2003 edition, volume 14 page 1082 claims that humans have “more than 100” vestigial organs which it defines as “organs that are useless, degenerate”! I would love to see a list of 100 vestigial organs. I checked my college A&P textbooks, and not one of the 15 I looked at listed a single structure as vestigial. All gave the proper use for each organ and structure that this article listed as vestigial. Evolutionists may claim that some are vestigial in humans, but I know of no anatomist that does. The scientific research is very clear on this topic. Do research on each of these claims and you will be surprised.
I think the reason they are commonly identified as vestigial traits is exactly what you posted. Before sex is determined, all embryos have nipples. For this reason, the male nipples in particular are not vestigial. Instead, they should be identified as homologous. Bennett.829 ( talk) 15:09, 1 October 2014 (UTC)bennett.829
I am placing {{ NPOV}} and {{ disputed}} on this article. As per comments above, in the very least, the factual accuracy of vestigial structures is in question. The examples given, supposedly have been proven wrong years ago, and that needs to be investigated! Taking the possible errors into account, this article seems to assume they are fact. The sources given are heavily weighted on the evolutionary way of thinking. There needs to be a better balance, and the article shouldn't assume one position. -- 64.22.206.248 01:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
As just one example, the article says, "The vermiform appendix is a vestige of the cecum."
Could we get proof for that, please? That it is homologous in shape, attachment, or position to the cecum has little bearing on whether it is related by DNA to the cecum. Until and unless someone can demonstrate that the DNA which codes for the cecum is related by X degree or in Y way to the DNA which codes for the appendix, statements like this are just wild speculation. That is, let's see some evidence that the DNA for the different organs is homologous and not just the structure.
Here's a reference to consider:
"... homologous structures need not be controlled by identical genes, and homology of phenotypes does not imply similarity of genotypes." - Gavin deBeer, formerly Professor of Embryology at the University of London and Director of the British Museum (Natural History), Homology, An Unsolved Problem (London: Oxford University Press, 1971), p. 16
Evidence, please, evidence.
Erik Eckhardt 03:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I've added this small paragraph to the history section:
Darwin however still often refers to the use and disuse of structures having some role in heredity, which mixes a form of Lamarckism with the theory of natural selection. In the final chapter of The Origin of Species he describes the process: "This has been effected chiefly through the natural selection of numerous successive, slight, favourable variations; aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts".
Does this represent Darwin's view reasonably well? I'm not sure exactly what views he held regarding the inheritance of aquired traits, but he seems to believe to some extent in the conditions of an organisms life affecting its reproduction somehow, and in the quote above seems to imply that use and disuse of a structure will be inherited by the offspring. I'm not 100% sure on this interpretation, please feel free to remove it if you feel it isn't accurate. Richard001 08:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> This is an interesting point, and it's quite right that expert citations are needed to support what seems an unusual inference from the primary source. Browne's The Power of Place p 61 notes "While Darwin certainly allowed some place in his scheme for the direct effect of the environment on organisms – the inheritance of acquired characteristics that was popularly assumed to be the main feature of Lamarck's system – he always regarded the chief difference between them to be that he, Darwin, did not allow his organisms any future goal, any teleology pulling them forwards, or any internal force that might drive the adaptive changes in specific directions." Desmond and Moore's Darwin p 617 notes that later in life "Darwin was loath to let go of the notion that a well-used and strengthened organ could be inherited. For decades he had amassed evidence that tradesmen's physiques were passed on". Richard Leakey's commentary in The Illustrated Origin of Species goes into more detail, and I'll try to amend that article. The Origin p 108 notes "I think there can be no doubt that use in our domestic animals has strengthened and enlarged certain parts, and disuse diminished them; and that such modifications are inherited." In his RECAPITULATION AND CONCLUSION to the 6th edition of the Origin, p 421, Darwin evidently got it wrong – "species have been modified... chiefly through.. natural selection... aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts... But as my conclusions have lately been much misrepresented, and it has been stated that I attribute the modification of species exclusively to natural selection,.. I placed in a most conspicuous position—namely, at the close of the Introduction—the following words: 'I am convinced that natural selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification.' This has been of no avail. Great is the power of steady misrepresentation; but the history of science shows that fortunately this power does not long endure." ... dave souza, talk 18:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
"In Darwinism" -- Ahem. Darwin's views are not synonymous with Darwinism (and if you define them as so, you have a pointless tautology) ... evolutionary biology has advanced considerably since that time and Darwin was far from infallible (or omniscient, omnipotent, etc... science is not religion and we don't worship Darwin or treat his statements as dogma). Contrary to the unsupported opinions of some editors, some aspects of Darwin's views were Lamarckian, and Lamarckism gets this right. Darwin wrote in OoS that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are "probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection." That is entirely unambiguous. -- 98.108.195.85 ( talk) 05:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The picture at the top of the article isn't very clear, at least not at its current resolution. It makes it look like the entire cecum is the appendix, because the labels are difficult to make out. 70.20.148.167 03:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
We only have this one article for vestigiality, but vestigial characters need not be morphological. What about vestigial behaviors and physiological mechanisms? Should the page perhaps be moved to vestigial character (or vestigiality) so as to afford a greater scope (or more accurate name for what the article describes)? Richard001 23:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the thing about babies being able to grab your hair and hold on is vestigal. They can do it, if you let them, with hair on your head. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.141.154 ( talk) 11:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I mentioned microbes in the to do list, though I'm not sure if they actually have vestigial characters. There's no reason they shouldn't in principle, as they are just as capable of adapting to a new environment as any other species, however I would imagine that because they evolve so fast compared with the large eukaryotic organisms such characters would be gone very swiftly. Richard001
I am removing all references to < http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/www/writings/Vestigial.txt>, as it is an inaccurate source in many ways. It claims that penguins have hollow bones (when every source I have ever read states that they have solid bones), and the references at the end are only relevant to single-cellular organisms. Disconformist 17:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
You might find this review useful. TimVickers 17:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Fong D, Kane T, Culver D (1995).
"Vestigialization and Loss of Nonfunctional Characters". Ann. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 26: 249–68.
doi:
10.1146/annurev.es.26.110195.001341.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
It says here that creationists who believe in some sort of microevolution but not macroevolution need not be worried about vestigial traits. Why? Our own appendix is not only a vestige in us, but has been for a long, long time. We would have been treated as several different species during the change from whatever we were when it was functional to what we are now. This is an uncited comment and will be removed completely (at the moment it is hidden) if there is no explanation. Richard001 07:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Why do we even *have* a section on "controversy"? There is NO controversy, just a bunch of deluded idiots who refuse to acknowledge indisputable facts. Inclusion of this section in no way clarifies the article, and actually undermines it by creating a false sense of controversy. Unless someone can suggest a damned fine reason to keep it, I'm just flat-out deleting it. Mokele 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vestigiality&diff=prev&oldid=193744687 Discuss :) Just bringing this to talk page as clearly there is disagreement here, and however we decide it probably shouldn't include the phrase 'good bacteria'. Skittle ( talk) 19:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Given the appendix is currently a text book example it would be far better to document the debate rather than prematurely delete it. David D. (Talk) 06:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, here's my general POV, in summarized form: The appendix is the 'poster-child' of vestigiality, and while numerous claims have been made about it's function, none have ever been supported. Furthermore, it's merely an example, albeit a prominent one, in this article, which is supposed to be about vestigiality in general.
Given both of these, as well as the fact that the various hypotheses are detailed in the
vermiform appendix article, I see the present state as the closest to ideal - This article isn't bogged down with needless qualifiers and disputes, and interested readers can find out more on the organ's individual page.
In terms of accuracy as well as style, readability, and presentation, I think the current state is best.
Mokele (
talk) 20:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I noted today that The Penguin dictionary of biology (10th edition, Thain & Hickman) says it's not vestigial. Richard001 ( talk) 05:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it would improve this article to give a long list of examples, but perhaps another page could do so? Of course, it would be impossible to give a full list (in fact most are unknown), but a long list could provide more examples and back up the claim that they occur in pretty much every macro-organism (i.e. plants and animals) for the skeptics out there. So it would be something like a list of vestigial traits or something like that. There are a lot of interesting examples I have heard of (e.g. moths that can hear the ultrasonic calls of bats, despite no longer being nocturnal), and I think there are some people out there who might take a lot of convincing. Would this be a good idea, or is it just overkill? Richard001 ( talk) 07:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The article currently says "Many whales also have undeveloped, unused, pelvis bones in the anterior part of their torsos. It is note worthy to know that the vestigial leg bones are used during mating[citation needed]"
This portion of the Vestigiality article is based on a since corrected mistake in the Human vestigiality article. Here is the portion in question, followed by the reasons I gave for altering it:
For these reasons, I have reworded the
Vestigiality article as follows:
FutureMolecularBio ( talk) 13:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The picture in the human section is used wrong. The picture shows that humans still have a tip on their ear, like ancestors used to have. It's not about the muscles. -00:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.225.7.188 ( talk)
The following statement in the article,
For example, the wings of penguin or ostrich would not be vestigial, as they have been modified for a substantial new purpose (underwater locomotion or display respectively)
directly conflicts with this statement, also from the article,
The wings of ostriches, emus, and other flightless birds are vestigial
. So which is it? Are Ostrich wings vestigial or not. My understanding is the flight characteristic of Ostrich wings is vestigial, but the wing structure is not as it has another use. Whether my understanding is correct or not the statements need to be clarified in the article as they clearly contradict in thier current form.
196.44.7.221 ( talk) 12:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
The section on plants and other organisms clearly needs expansion as the article states. There is a reference on the small sentence leading to a pay article. If anyone has access to this article or is willing to pay, please comment here. This is obvious that they do but the information on it is very scientific and advanced. If someone can read the article, please contribute! :) Andrew Colvin ( talk) 23:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Chemical insecticides are often mutanogenic, and can result in insects that can "normally" fly (such as cockroaches) to be born with deformed wings, which are too ..... well, deformed, for them to be useful. When I went to school (1968) this was taught as an example of vestigiality. And the famous Thalidomide babies of the 1960s, again their deformed limbs were termed vestigial Is this still the thinking now? Old_Wombat ( talk) 09:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
OK, then, in the article should we have a sentence of two discussing this meaning? Old_Wombat ( talk) 00:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I was watching this video by Jack Szostak just now and just past 14:00 he talks about evidence for the RNA world hypothesis in modern life. He shows how certain complex molecules have a nucleotide as part of their structure, which does not serve any useful function in modern life forms, yet it may still be there as a remnant of a time very early in the history of life on Earth when it did serve an important purpose. And it reminded me of vestigiality because it is essentially a part of an organism that once served a function but no longer does. It may in fact be one of the earliest examples of vestigiality in life on earth. I think it would be worth looking into and adding to the article, but unfortunately I am not an expert in this area and I don't really know what to look for in the way of sources. Can someone help? CodeCat ( talk) 17:56, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Yesterday I put in a couple of changes amounting to a couple of hundred words. Interested parties can inspect the history to evaluate them. They amounted mainly to putting most of the lede content into an introductory overview section, leaving an adequate lede for potential readers, and correcting a few minor errors and one embarrassing blunder. Judgeking however disapproved and reverted the whole lot without more explanation than his edit summary "Use the discussion page before making changes of this magnitude". Far larger edits without special discussion are routine; if we had to waste time waiting for talk page responses and discussion every time we exceed 200 words, we never would get anywhere. A far more appropriate response is either to correct unsuitable content or to discuss it in the talk page, which I certainly have done often and in this case JK has not. Unless anyone has a clear objection, I shall be reinstating the changes later today. JonRichfield ( talk) 11:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
JK, in case you had been worried on my account of my understanding of the situation, consider:
Now look, your intentions I am sure, and mine I know, are to achieve something worthwhile for WP. I'll leave the article as it is another day, during which you may do anything you consider reasonable to the article. If I approve your efforts as adequate, that will do. It goes against the grain, because some of the errors are so egregious that it is offensive to contemplate anyone reading them. However, a spirit of compromise... etc. If not however, I shall revert once more, in which case, if you still disapprove, I request that you do not start an edit war, but institute an RFC.
Unless you have a better suggestion. JonRichfield ( talk) 08:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I have edited the vermiform appendix bit slightly, but I am not happy with it. It seems to me that the present (and past) text is too glib in failing to distinguish between the appendix and the caecum. In humans it is really the caecum rather than the appendix that is vestigial. Relatively speaking, the human appendix is not dramatically smaller than in many herbivores, whereas the caecum certainly is. Comments, anyone? JonRichfield ( talk) 09:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
A vestigial is any body part which has lost or originally had no functionality from in any respect and developed in the womb (?), not only through resurfacing ancestral genes which have lost functionality. For example, many supernumerary body parts are vestigial. The header should be adjusted to reflect.
Macmillion Dictionary says: "SCIENCE remaining or existing, but not developed or working". The word does not only relate to paleo-evolutionary categorization and speculation. --
IronMaidenRocks (
talk) 18:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
According to recent research, including biochemical, clinical, and evolutionary studies, the appendix is no longer considered vestigial:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2009.01809.x/abstract;jsessionid=06619B9F28A175E9D107FDEA7058C72F.f04t04 http://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565%2811%2900580-5/abstract
The Wikipedia entry should be corrected to reflect this fact. There are plenty of other examples of vestigial structures that can be used without resorting to false information about the appendix 129.63.129.196 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I just wanted to note that I made a recent revision ( [3]) where I changed the text regarding Robert Wiedersheim in the history section. One of the reasons given was that a particular quote was from a different edition of The structure of man than the one referenced. This was incorrect, the quote is from the correct edition but I still think the current text is clearer. Knight of the sorrowful countenance ( talk) 19:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
This may or may not have been treated in one or more of the above sections: Vestigiality of teeth (wisdom teeth) remains, as far as I am aware, debatable. The lack of sufficient space for the third molars to erupt in their entirety in many human oral cavities is likely caused by the diminishing size of human jaws and mouths when subjected to the processed foods of our times rather than the raw foods of our distant ancestors. This lack of space, however, probably cannot be considered responsible for the natural absence of third molars in some human mouths and jaws. Nomore so than the occurrence of supernumerals (teeth or teeth like structures found behind the third molars) that some people are blessed with. These teeth are often tiny or deformed, and mostly lacking. Is this due to the lack of space that prevents them from growing to 'normal' size or even to form? The theory would be that almost all humans in a distant past had 36 fully grown teeth. We cannot know this with any degree of certainty, or that the limited space in mouths or the relative disuse of third and fourth molars made them go away or grow small. That would, to me, be total and totally unproven Lamarckism. We may speculate that our ancestors lost the first and perhaps even second molars to wear before the appearance of third molars around the age of 16+ and that this ensured the ability to chew and consequently survive. For a stone age human who might only live to be 30 this would be crucial. Today it is unimportant, even if we are twice as old, or more, when we die. So, away goes the third molar? Nah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxthedog ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Vestigiality was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. | |||||||||||||
| |||||||||||||
Current status: Delisted good article |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||
|
To-do list for Vestigiality:
|
/Archive 01 - 18:48, 5 June 2006 (UTC) |
The Good article nomination for Vestigiality has failed, for the following reason(s):
I see no problem with the bullet list; this is GA, not FAC. Great content, fully cited, licensed photos... we have a winner. Kafziel 16:55, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I've delisted the article for the following reasons:
the whales pelvis are really bones which have anchor points to muscles that whales use during sex and giving birth they need them becasue they are large animals the human appendix has a funtion and is part of your immune system and humans need thier tail bone for walking with more ease and has nerves going out of it
Its not a lie. The article just needs rewritten to state that they were developing leg bones and are now used for the reproductive system. Rather than saying they're entirely useless. —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
HabeoPhaIemMaximum (
talk •
contribs) 16:35, 5 November 2009 (UTC)
It is erroneous to cite the appendix as a vestigial organ when we now know that it serves a biological function (i.e. a reservoir for beneficial bacteria). The article first cites it as a vestigial organ, then equivocates, suggesting the appendix might have a purpose after all. That’s a poor example of a vestigial organ. Worse yet, earlier the article clearly states that: “care must be taken not to apply the label of vestigiality to exaptation, in which a structure originally used for one purpose is modified for a new one.” The reader is left with the impression that “the author” has failed to take his own advice. The section should be rewritten to say that while the appendix is often cited as a vestigial organ, it is in fact an example of exaptation. (The reference to the appendix shouldn’t be removed because it is bound to be reintroduced at a latter time by someone else who is under the common misconception that it is a vestigial organ.) – Rainy Day ( talk) 22:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
According to new research on 'blind' mole rats ( http://www.livescience.com/8468-blind-mole-rats-study-confirms.html), their eyes are functional and do not provide a good example of vestigiality. Someone please correct this erroneous and outdated reference to blind mole rats. They may have poorly functioning eyes, but these eyes have now been shown to be used by the mole rats. Please check the latest research (rather than just highly outdated books written in the 1800's) before posting things on Wikipedia. Thanks. – MathMan141 ( talk) 18:31, 28 October 2011 (UTC)
"(It should be noted that his comment on nature not making rapid jumps is now considered out of date according Stephen Jay Gould's theory of punctuated equilibrium. However the majority of his argument still stands in modern evolutionary theory)"
I removed this for several reasons. Firstly, we've taken great care to cite as much as we can in this article, and this isn't fully cited, although that can easily be fixed. More importantly, it drops what I gather is still a disputed theory in as established, and I'm not sure it really belongs in this section. I'm not trying to get rid of the information, but I'm not sure it belongs here. Skittle 11:35, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
The clitoris in females and the nipples of males are NOT vestigial, for male nipples never had the function of nursing young, and the clitoris never had the function of a penis. Instead, these are anatomical traits that are formed in an embyro before sexual differentiation occurs. The paragraphs refering to these as vestigial should be removed!!!
The information on this page is very inaccurate. I have taught anatomy at the college level including at the graduate level for over 20 years and not one text book that we have used, or I have reviewed, agree with the section on human anatomy in this article. I have tried to correct this article but my corrections were removed. I now inform students that I will not accept references to this web site on term papers. It seems that Darwinists have little concern for accuracy, but only indoctrination into their world view.
Since I also teach A&P, I thought I would weigh in on this. It does not matter what one believes about human vestigial organs, but what the empirical research says. If students started their research with this web article on vestigial organs, and they did their homework, they would find that most everything in the section about humans is wrong. Then they would conclude that Wikipedia is a worthless resource. I should note that one study found that Wikipedia was more accurate then the Encyclopedia Britannica. In this case they are correct. The 2003 edition, volume 14 page 1082 claims that humans have “more than 100” vestigial organs which it defines as “organs that are useless, degenerate”! I would love to see a list of 100 vestigial organs. I checked my college A&P textbooks, and not one of the 15 I looked at listed a single structure as vestigial. All gave the proper use for each organ and structure that this article listed as vestigial. Evolutionists may claim that some are vestigial in humans, but I know of no anatomist that does. The scientific research is very clear on this topic. Do research on each of these claims and you will be surprised.
I think the reason they are commonly identified as vestigial traits is exactly what you posted. Before sex is determined, all embryos have nipples. For this reason, the male nipples in particular are not vestigial. Instead, they should be identified as homologous. Bennett.829 ( talk) 15:09, 1 October 2014 (UTC)bennett.829
I am placing {{ NPOV}} and {{ disputed}} on this article. As per comments above, in the very least, the factual accuracy of vestigial structures is in question. The examples given, supposedly have been proven wrong years ago, and that needs to be investigated! Taking the possible errors into account, this article seems to assume they are fact. The sources given are heavily weighted on the evolutionary way of thinking. There needs to be a better balance, and the article shouldn't assume one position. -- 64.22.206.248 01:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
As just one example, the article says, "The vermiform appendix is a vestige of the cecum."
Could we get proof for that, please? That it is homologous in shape, attachment, or position to the cecum has little bearing on whether it is related by DNA to the cecum. Until and unless someone can demonstrate that the DNA which codes for the cecum is related by X degree or in Y way to the DNA which codes for the appendix, statements like this are just wild speculation. That is, let's see some evidence that the DNA for the different organs is homologous and not just the structure.
Here's a reference to consider:
"... homologous structures need not be controlled by identical genes, and homology of phenotypes does not imply similarity of genotypes." - Gavin deBeer, formerly Professor of Embryology at the University of London and Director of the British Museum (Natural History), Homology, An Unsolved Problem (London: Oxford University Press, 1971), p. 16
Evidence, please, evidence.
Erik Eckhardt 03:02, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I've added this small paragraph to the history section:
Darwin however still often refers to the use and disuse of structures having some role in heredity, which mixes a form of Lamarckism with the theory of natural selection. In the final chapter of The Origin of Species he describes the process: "This has been effected chiefly through the natural selection of numerous successive, slight, favourable variations; aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts".
Does this represent Darwin's view reasonably well? I'm not sure exactly what views he held regarding the inheritance of aquired traits, but he seems to believe to some extent in the conditions of an organisms life affecting its reproduction somehow, and in the quote above seems to imply that use and disuse of a structure will be inherited by the offspring. I'm not 100% sure on this interpretation, please feel free to remove it if you feel it isn't accurate. Richard001 08:04, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
<unindent> This is an interesting point, and it's quite right that expert citations are needed to support what seems an unusual inference from the primary source. Browne's The Power of Place p 61 notes "While Darwin certainly allowed some place in his scheme for the direct effect of the environment on organisms – the inheritance of acquired characteristics that was popularly assumed to be the main feature of Lamarck's system – he always regarded the chief difference between them to be that he, Darwin, did not allow his organisms any future goal, any teleology pulling them forwards, or any internal force that might drive the adaptive changes in specific directions." Desmond and Moore's Darwin p 617 notes that later in life "Darwin was loath to let go of the notion that a well-used and strengthened organ could be inherited. For decades he had amassed evidence that tradesmen's physiques were passed on". Richard Leakey's commentary in The Illustrated Origin of Species goes into more detail, and I'll try to amend that article. The Origin p 108 notes "I think there can be no doubt that use in our domestic animals has strengthened and enlarged certain parts, and disuse diminished them; and that such modifications are inherited." In his RECAPITULATION AND CONCLUSION to the 6th edition of the Origin, p 421, Darwin evidently got it wrong – "species have been modified... chiefly through.. natural selection... aided in an important manner by the inherited effects of the use and disuse of parts... But as my conclusions have lately been much misrepresented, and it has been stated that I attribute the modification of species exclusively to natural selection,.. I placed in a most conspicuous position—namely, at the close of the Introduction—the following words: 'I am convinced that natural selection has been the main but not the exclusive means of modification.' This has been of no avail. Great is the power of steady misrepresentation; but the history of science shows that fortunately this power does not long endure." ... dave souza, talk 18:41, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
"In Darwinism" -- Ahem. Darwin's views are not synonymous with Darwinism (and if you define them as so, you have a pointless tautology) ... evolutionary biology has advanced considerably since that time and Darwin was far from infallible (or omniscient, omnipotent, etc... science is not religion and we don't worship Darwin or treat his statements as dogma). Contrary to the unsupported opinions of some editors, some aspects of Darwin's views were Lamarckian, and Lamarckism gets this right. Darwin wrote in OoS that the vestigial eyes of moles and of cave-dwelling animals are "probably due to gradual reduction from disuse, but aided perhaps by natural selection." That is entirely unambiguous. -- 98.108.195.85 ( talk) 05:00, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The picture at the top of the article isn't very clear, at least not at its current resolution. It makes it look like the entire cecum is the appendix, because the labels are difficult to make out. 70.20.148.167 03:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
We only have this one article for vestigiality, but vestigial characters need not be morphological. What about vestigial behaviors and physiological mechanisms? Should the page perhaps be moved to vestigial character (or vestigiality) so as to afford a greater scope (or more accurate name for what the article describes)? Richard001 23:05, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the thing about babies being able to grab your hair and hold on is vestigal. They can do it, if you let them, with hair on your head. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.141.154 ( talk) 11:13, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
I mentioned microbes in the to do list, though I'm not sure if they actually have vestigial characters. There's no reason they shouldn't in principle, as they are just as capable of adapting to a new environment as any other species, however I would imagine that because they evolve so fast compared with the large eukaryotic organisms such characters would be gone very swiftly. Richard001
I am removing all references to < http://homepage.mac.com/lpetrich/www/writings/Vestigial.txt>, as it is an inaccurate source in many ways. It claims that penguins have hollow bones (when every source I have ever read states that they have solid bones), and the references at the end are only relevant to single-cellular organisms. Disconformist 17:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
You might find this review useful. TimVickers 17:47, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Fong D, Kane T, Culver D (1995).
"Vestigialization and Loss of Nonfunctional Characters". Ann. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 26: 249–68.
doi:
10.1146/annurev.es.26.110195.001341.{{
cite journal}}
: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
It says here that creationists who believe in some sort of microevolution but not macroevolution need not be worried about vestigial traits. Why? Our own appendix is not only a vestige in us, but has been for a long, long time. We would have been treated as several different species during the change from whatever we were when it was functional to what we are now. This is an uncited comment and will be removed completely (at the moment it is hidden) if there is no explanation. Richard001 07:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
Why do we even *have* a section on "controversy"? There is NO controversy, just a bunch of deluded idiots who refuse to acknowledge indisputable facts. Inclusion of this section in no way clarifies the article, and actually undermines it by creating a false sense of controversy. Unless someone can suggest a damned fine reason to keep it, I'm just flat-out deleting it. Mokele 22:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Vestigiality&diff=prev&oldid=193744687 Discuss :) Just bringing this to talk page as clearly there is disagreement here, and however we decide it probably shouldn't include the phrase 'good bacteria'. Skittle ( talk) 19:46, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Given the appendix is currently a text book example it would be far better to document the debate rather than prematurely delete it. David D. (Talk) 06:19, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, here's my general POV, in summarized form: The appendix is the 'poster-child' of vestigiality, and while numerous claims have been made about it's function, none have ever been supported. Furthermore, it's merely an example, albeit a prominent one, in this article, which is supposed to be about vestigiality in general.
Given both of these, as well as the fact that the various hypotheses are detailed in the
vermiform appendix article, I see the present state as the closest to ideal - This article isn't bogged down with needless qualifiers and disputes, and interested readers can find out more on the organ's individual page.
In terms of accuracy as well as style, readability, and presentation, I think the current state is best.
Mokele (
talk) 20:36, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I noted today that The Penguin dictionary of biology (10th edition, Thain & Hickman) says it's not vestigial. Richard001 ( talk) 05:18, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't think it would improve this article to give a long list of examples, but perhaps another page could do so? Of course, it would be impossible to give a full list (in fact most are unknown), but a long list could provide more examples and back up the claim that they occur in pretty much every macro-organism (i.e. plants and animals) for the skeptics out there. So it would be something like a list of vestigial traits or something like that. There are a lot of interesting examples I have heard of (e.g. moths that can hear the ultrasonic calls of bats, despite no longer being nocturnal), and I think there are some people out there who might take a lot of convincing. Would this be a good idea, or is it just overkill? Richard001 ( talk) 07:37, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
The article currently says "Many whales also have undeveloped, unused, pelvis bones in the anterior part of their torsos. It is note worthy to know that the vestigial leg bones are used during mating[citation needed]"
This portion of the Vestigiality article is based on a since corrected mistake in the Human vestigiality article. Here is the portion in question, followed by the reasons I gave for altering it:
For these reasons, I have reworded the
Vestigiality article as follows:
FutureMolecularBio ( talk) 13:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
The picture in the human section is used wrong. The picture shows that humans still have a tip on their ear, like ancestors used to have. It's not about the muscles. -00:15, 10 March 2009 (UTC)~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.225.7.188 ( talk)
The following statement in the article,
For example, the wings of penguin or ostrich would not be vestigial, as they have been modified for a substantial new purpose (underwater locomotion or display respectively)
directly conflicts with this statement, also from the article,
The wings of ostriches, emus, and other flightless birds are vestigial
. So which is it? Are Ostrich wings vestigial or not. My understanding is the flight characteristic of Ostrich wings is vestigial, but the wing structure is not as it has another use. Whether my understanding is correct or not the statements need to be clarified in the article as they clearly contradict in thier current form.
196.44.7.221 ( talk) 12:18, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
The section on plants and other organisms clearly needs expansion as the article states. There is a reference on the small sentence leading to a pay article. If anyone has access to this article or is willing to pay, please comment here. This is obvious that they do but the information on it is very scientific and advanced. If someone can read the article, please contribute! :) Andrew Colvin ( talk) 23:21, 30 April 2010 (UTC)
Chemical insecticides are often mutanogenic, and can result in insects that can "normally" fly (such as cockroaches) to be born with deformed wings, which are too ..... well, deformed, for them to be useful. When I went to school (1968) this was taught as an example of vestigiality. And the famous Thalidomide babies of the 1960s, again their deformed limbs were termed vestigial Is this still the thinking now? Old_Wombat ( talk) 09:12, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
OK, then, in the article should we have a sentence of two discussing this meaning? Old_Wombat ( talk) 00:30, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
I was watching this video by Jack Szostak just now and just past 14:00 he talks about evidence for the RNA world hypothesis in modern life. He shows how certain complex molecules have a nucleotide as part of their structure, which does not serve any useful function in modern life forms, yet it may still be there as a remnant of a time very early in the history of life on Earth when it did serve an important purpose. And it reminded me of vestigiality because it is essentially a part of an organism that once served a function but no longer does. It may in fact be one of the earliest examples of vestigiality in life on earth. I think it would be worth looking into and adding to the article, but unfortunately I am not an expert in this area and I don't really know what to look for in the way of sources. Can someone help? CodeCat ( talk) 17:56, 9 April 2012 (UTC)
Yesterday I put in a couple of changes amounting to a couple of hundred words. Interested parties can inspect the history to evaluate them. They amounted mainly to putting most of the lede content into an introductory overview section, leaving an adequate lede for potential readers, and correcting a few minor errors and one embarrassing blunder. Judgeking however disapproved and reverted the whole lot without more explanation than his edit summary "Use the discussion page before making changes of this magnitude". Far larger edits without special discussion are routine; if we had to waste time waiting for talk page responses and discussion every time we exceed 200 words, we never would get anywhere. A far more appropriate response is either to correct unsuitable content or to discuss it in the talk page, which I certainly have done often and in this case JK has not. Unless anyone has a clear objection, I shall be reinstating the changes later today. JonRichfield ( talk) 11:17, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
JK, in case you had been worried on my account of my understanding of the situation, consider:
Now look, your intentions I am sure, and mine I know, are to achieve something worthwhile for WP. I'll leave the article as it is another day, during which you may do anything you consider reasonable to the article. If I approve your efforts as adequate, that will do. It goes against the grain, because some of the errors are so egregious that it is offensive to contemplate anyone reading them. However, a spirit of compromise... etc. If not however, I shall revert once more, in which case, if you still disapprove, I request that you do not start an edit war, but institute an RFC.
Unless you have a better suggestion. JonRichfield ( talk) 08:10, 23 May 2012 (UTC)
I have edited the vermiform appendix bit slightly, but I am not happy with it. It seems to me that the present (and past) text is too glib in failing to distinguish between the appendix and the caecum. In humans it is really the caecum rather than the appendix that is vestigial. Relatively speaking, the human appendix is not dramatically smaller than in many herbivores, whereas the caecum certainly is. Comments, anyone? JonRichfield ( talk) 09:15, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
A vestigial is any body part which has lost or originally had no functionality from in any respect and developed in the womb (?), not only through resurfacing ancestral genes which have lost functionality. For example, many supernumerary body parts are vestigial. The header should be adjusted to reflect.
Macmillion Dictionary says: "SCIENCE remaining or existing, but not developed or working". The word does not only relate to paleo-evolutionary categorization and speculation. --
IronMaidenRocks (
talk) 18:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
According to recent research, including biochemical, clinical, and evolutionary studies, the appendix is no longer considered vestigial:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1420-9101.2009.01809.x/abstract;jsessionid=06619B9F28A175E9D107FDEA7058C72F.f04t04 http://www.cghjournal.org/article/S1542-3565%2811%2900580-5/abstract
The Wikipedia entry should be corrected to reflect this fact. There are plenty of other examples of vestigial structures that can be used without resorting to false information about the appendix 129.63.129.196 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:09, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I just wanted to note that I made a recent revision ( [3]) where I changed the text regarding Robert Wiedersheim in the history section. One of the reasons given was that a particular quote was from a different edition of The structure of man than the one referenced. This was incorrect, the quote is from the correct edition but I still think the current text is clearer. Knight of the sorrowful countenance ( talk) 19:49, 5 December 2015 (UTC)
This may or may not have been treated in one or more of the above sections: Vestigiality of teeth (wisdom teeth) remains, as far as I am aware, debatable. The lack of sufficient space for the third molars to erupt in their entirety in many human oral cavities is likely caused by the diminishing size of human jaws and mouths when subjected to the processed foods of our times rather than the raw foods of our distant ancestors. This lack of space, however, probably cannot be considered responsible for the natural absence of third molars in some human mouths and jaws. Nomore so than the occurrence of supernumerals (teeth or teeth like structures found behind the third molars) that some people are blessed with. These teeth are often tiny or deformed, and mostly lacking. Is this due to the lack of space that prevents them from growing to 'normal' size or even to form? The theory would be that almost all humans in a distant past had 36 fully grown teeth. We cannot know this with any degree of certainty, or that the limited space in mouths or the relative disuse of third and fourth molars made them go away or grow small. That would, to me, be total and totally unproven Lamarckism. We may speculate that our ancestors lost the first and perhaps even second molars to wear before the appearance of third molars around the age of 16+ and that this ensured the ability to chew and consequently survive. For a stone age human who might only live to be 30 this would be crucial. Today it is unimportant, even if we are twice as old, or more, when we die. So, away goes the third molar? Nah. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maxthedog ( talk • contribs) 20:12, 7 June 2020 (UTC)