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When and by whom was this symbol used historically? -- FOo 06:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Pythagoreans and early Christians, and, according to the originator of the article, 'Pagans' (though this is an increadibly vague term). CheeseDreams 18:39, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This symbol has been used thoughout all history by most religions, babylonian, chaldean, phonecian (The religion of these places transformed into judaism), judaism, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddism, mithraism, zoroatrianism, ancient egyptian, celtic, "Pagan," even the Mayans used the symbol. Using google images and searching you will find many new artist renditions but you can find many different christian churches, and cathedrals, ancient statues, ancient engravings, and carvings decorated with the vesica pisces sometimes pictured with jesus, angels, kings or saints inside of it. in islamic art and architecture of mosques the symbol can be found. many examples of the vesica pisces can be found in egyptian hieroglyphs, and written about on the columns of hermes. i will stop there and let you do the research yourself if you are interested in the symbolism and where it actually comes from, even Masonry uses the symbol as the diamond made by the compass and square of their logo
The vesica pisces is and always has been a symbol for a virgin birth which can be found in most religions. now the virgin birth in all religions before judaism and christianity did not involve a woman giving birth at times, but birth without sex like being born from the earth, like Mithra who emerged and was born from a rock not the same as Mary but a virgin birth all the same without sex. The Vesica Pisces symbolizes the virgin birth of the universe and everything in it, it symbolizes that God birthed the Universe and everything in it from God and was eventually changed to the icthys or jesus fish to symbolize the virgin birth of "Jesus" through the trinity who is seen as God, same idea, same "Pagan" symbol just put it into a story man could understand and relate to as times changed and Christianity was created
the sacred number in all religions is "7" and making a vesica pisces and creating 6 vesica pisces from the point where the lines intersect will make the "Flower of Life" which is another major religious symbol in most religions, the outer circle symbolizes "the universe's " creation and the inner 6 vesica pisces inside the outer circle symbolize the flowering of life
also using the lines of the two circles that create the vesica pisces in certain ways you are able to make perfect geometric shapes, all of them with perfect dimensions without a measuring tool for lines or angles depending on how big you make the circles will determine how big the shapes will be, the sacred geometry of Pythagoras goes back to 400-500 BC when he had started his mystery school which was essentially the first university
The symbol is still used today by many major corporations that run the world today to name a few Mastercard, Chanel, Gucci, Audi, The Olympic rings even contain it. Weirdest of all the Washington monument viewed from above will show you the Obelisk the monument is, is a phallic symbol and is coming out of a vesica pisces (vagina) on the ground made by the surrounding garden. This symbol is everywhere if you open your eyes and look for it you will see it which adds more to its mystery of why it is there and has been used through all history up until the present day -- 02:13, 16 January 2018 User:IAmTheHiddenCode
Please note that the Vesica Piscis is the fish shape NOT the overlapping circles. Vesica Piscis is latin for fish face. CheeseDreams 18:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please see the new diagram for explanation. CheeseDreams 21:30, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Here is a detailed link. It is briefly mentioned on this website, and at the bottom of the page on this website. CheeseDreams 19:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"each circle lies on the perimeter of the other" and "any symmetric lens" do not agree. (IF you look at the reference, there are varying width "lenses".) 64.47.44.27 ( talk) 22:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I would like to propose merging this article with that of Ichthys. The object in question is the same, and they are really just uses of the same thing by different peoples. I think there should be a section on "Christian use of THAT SHAPE" and "Pre-Christian use of THAT SHAPE" in the surviving article, and then any other bits that are in each article as well. However, I do not know what the resulting article ought to be called, maybe Fish shaped religious symbol thing CheeseDreams 20:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'd say they're more like twins, raised apart. They have different identities, different religions, and despite a family resemblance they don't look quite the same any more (one being geometric, the other freehand). Even the lack of a common name underscores how forced and difficult it would be to put them together. Leave them with their own pages, each with a link to his "brother". Tverbeek 02:06, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Any mathematicians out there that can conjure up a formula for: (a) Area of overlap when both circles are equal size? (b) Area of overlap when the circles are unequal size? 172.152.244.122 02:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear "Noe", the Pythagorean theorem has a somewhat tangential relationship to explaining the fact under discussion (since one must FIRST do a fair amount of geometry before being able to apply the Pythagorean theorem) -- but the equilateral triangles can be DIRECTLY SEEN in the construction of the Vesica Piscis (as shown in the diagram). The sqare root of three comes in from the well-known property that if the side of an equilateral triangle is 1, then the height of the triangle -- from center of base to vertex -- is half the square root of three. You could indeed derive this property by means of the Pythagorean theorem, but only if you constructed the triangles first. AnonMoos 02:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Things that I fail to understand are happening in the section ==Mystical and religious significance==. What does lengthy geometrical arguments and lists of rational approximants have to do with that section? Please explain!-- Niels Ø 18:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
What useful information did I remove in the edit [4]? Listing other rational approximations to is hardly relevant here. Anyway, I'm glad the two of us are no longer alone in this field, and I warmly welcome user:The Anomes action (see following section in this discussion).-- Niels Ø 20:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the section below out of the article because of concerns about verifiability.
From the article:
This section contains a number of unsourced speculations:
Can someone please provide verifiable cites from mainstream sources for these assertions before restoring this material? And, before you ask, please can you give something other than a website that does not appear to me to provide cites for any of these assertions:
-- The Anome 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
You could read "Musings on the Vesica Piscis" - an article in "Nexus Network Journal" (ISSN: 1590-5869) Volume 6, Number 2 (a maths + architecture journal). If you want an earlier reference, you could read Porphyry and Plato which touch briefly upon it (e.g. in Timaeus), Porphyry recounting that Pythagoras caught 153 fish in a single catch of the net from the side of a boat. "On the Measurement of the Cycle" (Archimedes) also mentions "the measure of the fish" in this 153/vesica piscis context. The significantly more modern "City of Revelation" by Mitchell covers this topic, and goes into detail on the gematria and isopsephia aspects. Clinkophonist 17:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
...So I suppose I should add the section back. Clinkophonist 17:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Please provide the references as requested, not just a list of books, preferrably with quotations. The religious connections is not a bunch of trivia and must be thoroughly sourced. As for the reference "musings, they are musings to be ignored, unless they quote something serious sources. Mukadderat 19:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The association of the Vesica Piscis with the Yoni is important and its mention on this page and on the Aureola page should not be deleted by vandals who like to determine for other people what is relevant and what is not.
Just a few references:
Tchoutoye 01:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Please keep in mind when providing references to books, a distinction must be made between scholars in mythology and self-proclaimed experts in modern misticysm. Today everyone may print a book with any fantastic theory. `' mikka 02:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
"I have nothing againct inclusion of anything provided you provide correct historical context and references." In that case you should mark the content with "citation needed", not simply delete it.
"Please keep in mind when providing references to books, a distinction must be made between scholars in mythology and self-proclaimed experts in modern misticysm. Today everyone may print a book with any fantastic theory." In this case the issue is not contested. Both the PhD scholars and the "self-proclaimed experts" are unanimous on this. Dr. Constance Rodriguez has a background in Jungian Theory and a doctorate in Depth Psychology. Is that good enough for you? Tchoutoye 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added a note to the Vesica_piscis#Mystical_and_religious_significance section, mentioning the yonic interpretation and specifically labeling it a new age interpretation, and including the above references. This is clearly a common interpretation, as attested by the references, and hence should be mentioned, but I don't know if research shows that yonic is a traditional interpretation. Nbarth ( talk) 00:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've had it. This user keeps deleting the diagram and the description that show the geometric construction of this figure, even when this it not in the least a controversial issue, even after having been repeatedly warned in the revert summaries, and even after plenty of references for it have been provided both in the article and in this talk page (e.g., the MathWorld entry for this shape which I had provided above). So from now on I consider that this user is vandalizing this article and have left him a warning to the effect in his talk page. Uaxuctum 12:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Please be aware that your edit war without providing valin references into deleted unreferenced text about questioned statements, per wikipedia:Attribution may lead you to blocking. Mukadderat 16:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
In the intro, it says “The shape is called a mandorla ("almond") in India”. This text makes it seem like “mandorla” is an a term for almond in some Indian tongue. Mandorla is in fact the Italian word for “almond”, and the term itself is most commonly used in Western culture when describing traditional Christian art. It has nothing to do with India. There is a term called Mandala (which derives from early Sanskrit for “circle”) that is used in India and is of importance to several of the Dharmic religions. I wonder if this is what Jossi was thinking when he made the edit. In any case, I think it should be removed (and I’ll do it if no one objects within a few days). -- 02:32, 15 June 2007 76.188.227.151
I see that no one's posted on the talk page in a while. It may be useful to note that this shape is used in Euclid's first proposition in Elements, where he uses it to construct an equilateral triangle. Call the two centers of the circles A and B and one of their intersections C. Connect A, B, and C to form a triangle. In 2 (flat) dimensions, the triangle is equilateral because AB, BC, and AC are of equal length (they are each the radius of at least one of two circles of equal size). A nifty little proof and an interesting historical context. Just a suggestion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.199.47 ( talk) 04:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
There is another esoteric number included: The connecting line between the centre of one of the circles and one of the points of intersection of the two circels is (multiplied with circles diameter), resp. (multiplied with width of the vesica piscis)... 212.23.104.120 ( talk) 18:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I added the following and one reference (I need to take the time to come up with other references)... The most famous example in nature of the vesica piscis is, of course, when a solar eclipse occurs. At various points in the Moon's orbit, it appears to be exactly the same size of the Sun while observing both from Earth. As the Moon moves to cover the Sun, it forms a vesica piscis. This had great significance to the ancients! In many ancient cultures, the Sun was a male god and the Moon a goddess, and the vesica piscis symbolized the opening or gateway between these two polarities through which creation can take place <ref>Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C. p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006)</ref>. The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on "As above, so below". Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons. <ref>Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C., p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006)</ref> - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 18:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Following up on the above comment from 9 months ago, I agree that this is crap because you DON"T see a vesica during an eclipse ... you see the rough equivalent of the MasterCard logo, maybe, not not a vesica. The conclusions in the rest of the paragraph don't follow from the eclipse at all ... - !!!!
Removed the below text as its citations are unreliable conspiracy theories/mysticism. A well written NPOV section on the mystical associations of the symbol would be appropriate here (I imagine this is mostly why people come to the article) but the below does not meet this standard since it uncritically presents these theories as though true (adding the hedge "according to some" alone does not in and of itself make something NPO:
"The vesica piscis has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, and is viewed as important in some forms of Kabbalah. More recently, numerous New Age authors have interpreted it as a yonic symbol and claimed that this, a reference to the female genitals, is a traditional interpretation. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]
One author claims that the total solar eclipse inspires images of the vesica piscis. [7] The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on the shape. Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons. [8]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.67.244 ( talk) 13:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
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When and by whom was this symbol used historically? -- FOo 06:07, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Pythagoreans and early Christians, and, according to the originator of the article, 'Pagans' (though this is an increadibly vague term). CheeseDreams 18:39, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
This symbol has been used thoughout all history by most religions, babylonian, chaldean, phonecian (The religion of these places transformed into judaism), judaism, christianity, islam, hinduism, buddism, mithraism, zoroatrianism, ancient egyptian, celtic, "Pagan," even the Mayans used the symbol. Using google images and searching you will find many new artist renditions but you can find many different christian churches, and cathedrals, ancient statues, ancient engravings, and carvings decorated with the vesica pisces sometimes pictured with jesus, angels, kings or saints inside of it. in islamic art and architecture of mosques the symbol can be found. many examples of the vesica pisces can be found in egyptian hieroglyphs, and written about on the columns of hermes. i will stop there and let you do the research yourself if you are interested in the symbolism and where it actually comes from, even Masonry uses the symbol as the diamond made by the compass and square of their logo
The vesica pisces is and always has been a symbol for a virgin birth which can be found in most religions. now the virgin birth in all religions before judaism and christianity did not involve a woman giving birth at times, but birth without sex like being born from the earth, like Mithra who emerged and was born from a rock not the same as Mary but a virgin birth all the same without sex. The Vesica Pisces symbolizes the virgin birth of the universe and everything in it, it symbolizes that God birthed the Universe and everything in it from God and was eventually changed to the icthys or jesus fish to symbolize the virgin birth of "Jesus" through the trinity who is seen as God, same idea, same "Pagan" symbol just put it into a story man could understand and relate to as times changed and Christianity was created
the sacred number in all religions is "7" and making a vesica pisces and creating 6 vesica pisces from the point where the lines intersect will make the "Flower of Life" which is another major religious symbol in most religions, the outer circle symbolizes "the universe's " creation and the inner 6 vesica pisces inside the outer circle symbolize the flowering of life
also using the lines of the two circles that create the vesica pisces in certain ways you are able to make perfect geometric shapes, all of them with perfect dimensions without a measuring tool for lines or angles depending on how big you make the circles will determine how big the shapes will be, the sacred geometry of Pythagoras goes back to 400-500 BC when he had started his mystery school which was essentially the first university
The symbol is still used today by many major corporations that run the world today to name a few Mastercard, Chanel, Gucci, Audi, The Olympic rings even contain it. Weirdest of all the Washington monument viewed from above will show you the Obelisk the monument is, is a phallic symbol and is coming out of a vesica pisces (vagina) on the ground made by the surrounding garden. This symbol is everywhere if you open your eyes and look for it you will see it which adds more to its mystery of why it is there and has been used through all history up until the present day -- 02:13, 16 January 2018 User:IAmTheHiddenCode
Please note that the Vesica Piscis is the fish shape NOT the overlapping circles. Vesica Piscis is latin for fish face. CheeseDreams 18:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Please see the new diagram for explanation. CheeseDreams 21:30, 3 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Here is a detailed link. It is briefly mentioned on this website, and at the bottom of the page on this website. CheeseDreams 19:45, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)
"each circle lies on the perimeter of the other" and "any symmetric lens" do not agree. (IF you look at the reference, there are varying width "lenses".) 64.47.44.27 ( talk) 22:53, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I would like to propose merging this article with that of Ichthys. The object in question is the same, and they are really just uses of the same thing by different peoples. I think there should be a section on "Christian use of THAT SHAPE" and "Pre-Christian use of THAT SHAPE" in the surviving article, and then any other bits that are in each article as well. However, I do not know what the resulting article ought to be called, maybe Fish shaped religious symbol thing CheeseDreams 20:25, 2 Nov 2004 (UTC)
I'd say they're more like twins, raised apart. They have different identities, different religions, and despite a family resemblance they don't look quite the same any more (one being geometric, the other freehand). Even the lack of a common name underscores how forced and difficult it would be to put them together. Leave them with their own pages, each with a link to his "brother". Tverbeek 02:06, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Any mathematicians out there that can conjure up a formula for: (a) Area of overlap when both circles are equal size? (b) Area of overlap when the circles are unequal size? 172.152.244.122 02:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Dear "Noe", the Pythagorean theorem has a somewhat tangential relationship to explaining the fact under discussion (since one must FIRST do a fair amount of geometry before being able to apply the Pythagorean theorem) -- but the equilateral triangles can be DIRECTLY SEEN in the construction of the Vesica Piscis (as shown in the diagram). The sqare root of three comes in from the well-known property that if the side of an equilateral triangle is 1, then the height of the triangle -- from center of base to vertex -- is half the square root of three. You could indeed derive this property by means of the Pythagorean theorem, but only if you constructed the triangles first. AnonMoos 02:34, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Things that I fail to understand are happening in the section ==Mystical and religious significance==. What does lengthy geometrical arguments and lists of rational approximants have to do with that section? Please explain!-- Niels Ø 18:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
What useful information did I remove in the edit [4]? Listing other rational approximations to is hardly relevant here. Anyway, I'm glad the two of us are no longer alone in this field, and I warmly welcome user:The Anomes action (see following section in this discussion).-- Niels Ø 20:22, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I have moved the section below out of the article because of concerns about verifiability.
From the article:
This section contains a number of unsourced speculations:
Can someone please provide verifiable cites from mainstream sources for these assertions before restoring this material? And, before you ask, please can you give something other than a website that does not appear to me to provide cites for any of these assertions:
-- The Anome 07:20, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
You could read "Musings on the Vesica Piscis" - an article in "Nexus Network Journal" (ISSN: 1590-5869) Volume 6, Number 2 (a maths + architecture journal). If you want an earlier reference, you could read Porphyry and Plato which touch briefly upon it (e.g. in Timaeus), Porphyry recounting that Pythagoras caught 153 fish in a single catch of the net from the side of a boat. "On the Measurement of the Cycle" (Archimedes) also mentions "the measure of the fish" in this 153/vesica piscis context. The significantly more modern "City of Revelation" by Mitchell covers this topic, and goes into detail on the gematria and isopsephia aspects. Clinkophonist 17:15, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
...So I suppose I should add the section back. Clinkophonist 17:18, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Please provide the references as requested, not just a list of books, preferrably with quotations. The religious connections is not a bunch of trivia and must be thoroughly sourced. As for the reference "musings, they are musings to be ignored, unless they quote something serious sources. Mukadderat 19:27, 21 May 2007 (UTC)
The association of the Vesica Piscis with the Yoni is important and its mention on this page and on the Aureola page should not be deleted by vandals who like to determine for other people what is relevant and what is not.
Just a few references:
Tchoutoye 01:54, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
Please keep in mind when providing references to books, a distinction must be made between scholars in mythology and self-proclaimed experts in modern misticysm. Today everyone may print a book with any fantastic theory. `' mikka 02:09, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
"I have nothing againct inclusion of anything provided you provide correct historical context and references." In that case you should mark the content with "citation needed", not simply delete it.
"Please keep in mind when providing references to books, a distinction must be made between scholars in mythology and self-proclaimed experts in modern misticysm. Today everyone may print a book with any fantastic theory." In this case the issue is not contested. Both the PhD scholars and the "self-proclaimed experts" are unanimous on this. Dr. Constance Rodriguez has a background in Jungian Theory and a doctorate in Depth Psychology. Is that good enough for you? Tchoutoye 02:18, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I've added a note to the Vesica_piscis#Mystical_and_religious_significance section, mentioning the yonic interpretation and specifically labeling it a new age interpretation, and including the above references. This is clearly a common interpretation, as attested by the references, and hence should be mentioned, but I don't know if research shows that yonic is a traditional interpretation. Nbarth ( talk) 00:32, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I've had it. This user keeps deleting the diagram and the description that show the geometric construction of this figure, even when this it not in the least a controversial issue, even after having been repeatedly warned in the revert summaries, and even after plenty of references for it have been provided both in the article and in this talk page (e.g., the MathWorld entry for this shape which I had provided above). So from now on I consider that this user is vandalizing this article and have left him a warning to the effect in his talk page. Uaxuctum 12:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Please be aware that your edit war without providing valin references into deleted unreferenced text about questioned statements, per wikipedia:Attribution may lead you to blocking. Mukadderat 16:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
In the intro, it says “The shape is called a mandorla ("almond") in India”. This text makes it seem like “mandorla” is an a term for almond in some Indian tongue. Mandorla is in fact the Italian word for “almond”, and the term itself is most commonly used in Western culture when describing traditional Christian art. It has nothing to do with India. There is a term called Mandala (which derives from early Sanskrit for “circle”) that is used in India and is of importance to several of the Dharmic religions. I wonder if this is what Jossi was thinking when he made the edit. In any case, I think it should be removed (and I’ll do it if no one objects within a few days). -- 02:32, 15 June 2007 76.188.227.151
I see that no one's posted on the talk page in a while. It may be useful to note that this shape is used in Euclid's first proposition in Elements, where he uses it to construct an equilateral triangle. Call the two centers of the circles A and B and one of their intersections C. Connect A, B, and C to form a triangle. In 2 (flat) dimensions, the triangle is equilateral because AB, BC, and AC are of equal length (they are each the radius of at least one of two circles of equal size). A nifty little proof and an interesting historical context. Just a suggestion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.189.199.47 ( talk) 04:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
There is another esoteric number included: The connecting line between the centre of one of the circles and one of the points of intersection of the two circels is (multiplied with circles diameter), resp. (multiplied with width of the vesica piscis)... 212.23.104.120 ( talk) 18:56, 28 September 2010 (UTC)
I added the following and one reference (I need to take the time to come up with other references)... The most famous example in nature of the vesica piscis is, of course, when a solar eclipse occurs. At various points in the Moon's orbit, it appears to be exactly the same size of the Sun while observing both from Earth. As the Moon moves to cover the Sun, it forms a vesica piscis. This had great significance to the ancients! In many ancient cultures, the Sun was a male god and the Moon a goddess, and the vesica piscis symbolized the opening or gateway between these two polarities through which creation can take place <ref>Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C. p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006)</ref>. The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on "As above, so below". Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons. <ref>Nicholas R. Mann, The Sacred Geometry of Washington, D.C., p. 92 (Barnes & Noble, 2006)</ref> - Brad Watson, Miami, FL 71.196.11.183 ( talk) 18:26, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Following up on the above comment from 9 months ago, I agree that this is crap because you DON"T see a vesica during an eclipse ... you see the rough equivalent of the MasterCard logo, maybe, not not a vesica. The conclusions in the rest of the paragraph don't follow from the eclipse at all ... - !!!!
Removed the below text as its citations are unreliable conspiracy theories/mysticism. A well written NPOV section on the mystical associations of the symbol would be appropriate here (I imagine this is mostly why people come to the article) but the below does not meet this standard since it uncritically presents these theories as though true (adding the hedge "according to some" alone does not in and of itself make something NPO:
"The vesica piscis has been the subject of mystical speculation at several periods of history, and is viewed as important in some forms of Kabbalah. More recently, numerous New Age authors have interpreted it as a yonic symbol and claimed that this, a reference to the female genitals, is a traditional interpretation. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]
One author claims that the total solar eclipse inspires images of the vesica piscis. [7] The ancient Egyptians practiced sacred geometry based on the shape. Architects and artists copied the solar eclipse/vesica piscis and its mathematics in their sacred buildings and artwork to reflect their religious beliefs. This ancient tradition was passed on through the centuries by the Freemasons. [8]" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.171.67.244 ( talk) 13:28, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
References
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The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
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