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| Reviews =
I will use these in the critical recpetion section at some point soon - I am in the middle of a massive rework of the Version 2.0 article. -- Breakinguptheguy ( talk) 20:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
At the beginning of the Promotion section, it sez: "The entire visual campaign for Version 2.0 was tailored to play off the album cover artwork, the icons designed to represent each single release, provided point-of-sale and the band's videogenic sensibility." This is not a sentence, and I couldn`t make enuf sense of it to turn it into one. Fp cassini ( talk) 17:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Dan56, as I stated in the edit summary to the revert, you were removing multiple reviews added in prose from the album ratings box and while I'm augmenting/improving the article (which is disruptive at best); moreover, contrary to your arbitrary objection to quotes here, per the guideline WP:QUOTEFARM (as you cited), the quotes used are not long, comprise of "smaller portions of quotation", are "provided an appropriate context", they do not remotely "dominate the article" and much paraphrase is already used; "Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit". -- Lapadite ( talk) 13:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Regarding About.com's reliability, there is a table of About critics linked in the very section you cited. The writer sourced in the article is considered reliable. -- Lapadite ( talk) 13:30, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Again, note - Sheffield states: "Manson steals the show, of course, preening with enough slinky wit in her voice to win you over even when she's rhyming "happy hours" with "golden showers."" → your version reads: "Manson remains the highlight because of how her seductive singing evokes new wave greats and helps appropriate the band's complex sounds into a well-crafted, original rock album." Sheffield does not say Manson is the highlight because she evokes new wave greats, so it is not appropriate to have it in that context as it's original research/not sticking to source. The following sentence in Sheffield's review is an additional opinion, unrelated to the former: "It's also sweet how she honors so many of her female New Wave icons." -- Lapadite ( talk) 03:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, note - Sheffield states: "Manson steals the show, of course, preening with enough slinky wit in her voice to win you over even when she's rhyming "happy hours" with "golden showers."" → your version reads: "Manson remains the highlight because of how her seductive singing evokes new wave greats and helps appropriate the band's complex sounds into a well-crafted, original rock album." Sheffield does not say Manson is the highlight because she evokes new wave greats, so it is not appropriate to have it in that context as it's original research/not sticking to source. The following sentence in Sheffield's review is an additional opinion, unrelated to the former: "It's also sweet how she honors so many of her female New Wave icons."
The Age rating is out of 4 stars; e.g.,
[5],
[6],
[7]. --
Lapadite (
talk)
12:36, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
It is my contention that this revision by Lapadite77 does not improve the article, for the reasons I've outlined below in my comments. This is the current version of the section in question, after I tried to condense what was added accordingly. Dan56 ( talk) 13:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I feel it overloads the section with quotations used without pertinence, with regurgitated praise from any reviewer available. Lapadite77 did not even paraphrase these overlong quotes or fragments from the source, which present nothing new or unique from what had previously been in the section and amounts to redundant guff. Using too many quotes is incompatible with encyclopedic writing. ( WP:QUOTEFARM) A criticism or reception section is not meant to be a complete list of all praise or criticism, but rather to provide readers with a representative sample of how this album has been received. ( WP:NIF#Red flags) Furthermore, whatever paraphrasing was done in this revision is poor and non-neutral, particularly the paragraph given to the Baltimore Sun reviewer, at least half of which comprises quoted material, as does the four-sentence quotation from a review by About.com. The section should be readable and representative of the unique points made about this album, not comprehensive and bludgeoning readers with the same thing being said in a different way. Erroneous also was moving a paragraph on the album's rankings in critics' polls out of the "accolades" section. Dan56 ( talk) 13:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Comment: I will repost my comment from the above section regarding Dan56's edit:
Dan56, as I stated in the edit summary to the revert, you were removing multiple reviews added in prose from the album ratings box and while I'm augmenting/improving the article (which is disruptive at best); moreover, contrary to your arbitrary objection to quotes here, per the guideline WP:QUOTEFARM (as you cited), the quotes used are not long, comprise of "smaller portions of quotation", are "provided an appropriate context", they do not remotely "dominate the article" and much paraphrase is already used; "Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit". Regarding About.com's reliability, there is a table of About critics linked in the very section you cited. The writer sourced in the article is considered reliable.
(bolding the following as Dan56 put forth a misleading "revision" in the RfC which is not actually the revision in question, this version of the section is - improvements Dan56 does not want - vs Dan's version (excising reviews)): I had already restored the erroneous removal of an equal Rolling Stone rating in the album ratings box, so why bring it up? Clearly not relevant to the issue raised. The section is perfectly readable and representable, not repetitive, not remotely POV-hindered; all but two reviews used are directly from those cited on the album ratings box. Newsweek's was already there, a reliable source, and the About.com writer sourced is reliable per Wikipedia as noted above. However I do find suspect your insistence on removing these reviews (which are positive in nature, but represented fairly) with claims of POV, particularly given your prior edits here seemingly pushing certain reviews that contained particular genres (e.g., [8]) + this claim of retrospective reviews not being valid here [9] when you added one yourself. Regarding the article's subject, It should also be noted that this is evidently a major, famous album with plenty of media coverage, major publication reviews, and accolades, and it should not remotely be subjected to a diminutive reception section, especially if this were to be considered for a GA or FA status in the future. The implication that there are too many reviews is just ridiculous. -- Lapadite ( talk) 13:56, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Comment: I don't see Lapadite's revision as problematic per se. I'm unaware of a strict limit to the size of reception sections, and WP:QUOTEFARM is kind of vague, so if Dan56 feels it is too long, he can make it shorter by cutting excesses. He could even take out a couple of reviews if they make the section too repetitive, but simply removing everything Lapadite added seems drastic. Victão Lopes Fala! 16:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
In terms of general sound and sensibility, it's not all that different from the band's 1995 debut. We get the same blend of guitar crunch and automaton thump in the instrumental tracks, the same fondness for exotic textures and sudden bursts of noise, the same combination of sex and sass in the vocals. ... except that it's better the second time around .... That's pretty much the effect Garbage is going for with its sophomore release ... This is definitely not an attempt at reinvention ... the album does make improvements, and good ones at that.
Note I'd like to note, before any uninvolved admin closes this discussion, that Lapadite77 solicited comments ( [14], [15]) from editors they had worked with on other "Garbage" articles and had solicited comments in a non-neutral way ( [16], before in another content dispute, ( WP:RfC#Publicizing an RfC, WP:CANVASS) or for their known opinion or viewpoint, considering Coemgenus had reviewed and passed ( [17]) an article Lapadite77 cited above as precedent for justifying their edits here. Dan56 ( talk) 09:04, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't know why Dan56 is now writing in the above section while this is still open, but all editors interested please see the above section (as well as this and this section) regarding Dan's recent edits (including reversals again). I strongly encourage others to chime in, especially as Dan56 continues WP:OWN and WP:TE habits. Pinging users that have commented above: Victor Lopes, Igordebraga. -- Lapadite ( talk) 17:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I've been skimming more of Contemporary Musicians and found that this album received "somewhat mixed reviews". In light of this, the Critical reception section will have to be restructured. Dan56 ( talk) 20:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, there's no indication that you actually accessed the source yourself as oppose to just copying a citation found on a site and writing a sentence based on its title. "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material", "To request verification that a reference supports the text, tag it with {{verification needed}}. Material that fails verification may be tagged with {{failed verification}} or removed.", "Don't cite a source unless you've seen it for yourself".
Dan56, regarding date formats, need I remind it was you who changed the European/most of the world date format to the North American one: [18]. I will continue the current format, but you erred in actuality, MOS:DATEUNIFY, for changing a consistent date format (the ones using slashes could've just been expanded). -- Lapadite ( talk) 00:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
While accusing me in bad faith of tagging this statement, Lapadite77 believes the source he cited to support "...backed with innovative music videos" verifies that the music videos were in fact "innovative". I contend that it does not explicitly state or support this album's videos were "innovative". This discussion concerns WP:PEA and OR guidelines. Dan56 ( talk) 05:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Peacock terms like "innovative" should be attributed ( WP:PEA) Furthermore, the source cited-- Rolling Stone's Colleen Nika-- does not say the videos for this album were "innovative". She says "[Manson's] roles in Version 2.0's clips grew ever more adventurous." Dan56 ( talk) 15:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Diff of revisions being argued for by me and Lapadite77. I originally added this text on February 10, before Lapadite77 removed it altogether, which I reverted, and he then revised while accusing me of cherry picking. This is the complete text from Stephen Dalton's review for NME magazine. Dan56 ( talk) 03:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
My revision is faithful to Dalton's conclusion and essential points and complaints with the album--Manson's lyrics --> "Ultimately, though, Shirley's lyrics remain the album's focus - and, alas, its weak link.", and in the last few sentences of his review, that the band's music is unmemorable and unadventurous --> "Ultimately, Garbage are still too harmless, too guileless, too unassuming to hate. But it's equally difficult to imagine ever feeling impassioned, intoxicated or even mildly moved by their business-class executive rock and cartoon-vamp posturing. 'Version 2.0' is state-of-the-art corporate software: virus free, millennium friendly, functional and slick. But, outside of office hours, pretty damn forgettable." Dan56 ( talk) 03:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Correction of misleading info - I initially removed it because Dan56 had not provided a way to verify the sources. He did later. NME's is revised as, like many instances before, it is cherry picked. Dan56 himself noted in an above section that NME review is of mixed nature (not negative); his paraphrasing does not entirely
WP:STICKTOSOURCE and does not represent the nature of the review. My revision concisely, proportionally, while minimizing quotes, - things Dan56 has argued here are necessary - represents it. Dan56 has been called out multiple times on his
tendentious editing, and it has been clear he is biased against the subject of this article. --
Lapadite (
talk)
03:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
WP:BRD - Dan56, quit misrepresenting and violating BRD. Your edit (initial NME/Times addition) was reverted, your restoring of it was revised, and your revert of it (which took it back to the initial state (which I challenged) was reverted. Per BRD (and obviously WP:EW) you should not continue reverting/restoring such until an understanding is reached on talk page, like my edit summary says. -- Lapadite ( talk) 04:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I brought up in one of the above threads that the CNN and CMJ profile pieces on Garbage shouldn't have been added because they are not actual reviews and the section already gives undue weight to positive reviews of the album, so I removed them from this article's Critical reception section, before being reverted by Lapadite77, who claimed my removal constituted "POV-pushing edits, removing + reviews from reliable sources".
Comment and clarification - Reviews given in profiles/interviews by reliable sources are used throughout many articles, GAs and FAs. That an article contains an interview or is a profile on a subject does not mean, in theory or practice, a review given by the source is consciously biased in either way. WP:BIASED, it is not our job to try to assess what we think are biases in sources - which all inherently have - and select them or their statements as per our own; we present the viewpoint. The section already gives undue weight to positive reviews of the album is telling. Dan56 has linked again (misleading readers of only this section) a source who's content in question was challenged, and notably contradicted by multiple other sources in an RfC above. -- Lapadite ( talk) 05:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Wow. I really had no life these years... Piotr Jr. ( talk) 01:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
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This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Version 2.0 article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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Since Allmusic have changed the syntax of their URLs, 1 link(s) used in the article do not work anymore and can't be migrated automatically. Please use the search option on http://www.allmusic.com to find the new location of the linked Allmusic article(s) and fix the link(s) accordingly, prefereably by using the {{ Allmusic}} template. If a new location cannot be found, the link(s) should be removed. This applies to the following external links:
-- CactusBot ( talk) 10:13, 2 January 2011 (UTC)
| Reviews =
I will use these in the critical recpetion section at some point soon - I am in the middle of a massive rework of the Version 2.0 article. -- Breakinguptheguy ( talk) 20:29, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
At the beginning of the Promotion section, it sez: "The entire visual campaign for Version 2.0 was tailored to play off the album cover artwork, the icons designed to represent each single release, provided point-of-sale and the band's videogenic sensibility." This is not a sentence, and I couldn`t make enuf sense of it to turn it into one. Fp cassini ( talk) 17:56, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Dan56, as I stated in the edit summary to the revert, you were removing multiple reviews added in prose from the album ratings box and while I'm augmenting/improving the article (which is disruptive at best); moreover, contrary to your arbitrary objection to quotes here, per the guideline WP:QUOTEFARM (as you cited), the quotes used are not long, comprise of "smaller portions of quotation", are "provided an appropriate context", they do not remotely "dominate the article" and much paraphrase is already used; "Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit". -- Lapadite ( talk) 13:21, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Regarding About.com's reliability, there is a table of About critics linked in the very section you cited. The writer sourced in the article is considered reliable. -- Lapadite ( talk) 13:30, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Again, note - Sheffield states: "Manson steals the show, of course, preening with enough slinky wit in her voice to win you over even when she's rhyming "happy hours" with "golden showers."" → your version reads: "Manson remains the highlight because of how her seductive singing evokes new wave greats and helps appropriate the band's complex sounds into a well-crafted, original rock album." Sheffield does not say Manson is the highlight because she evokes new wave greats, so it is not appropriate to have it in that context as it's original research/not sticking to source. The following sentence in Sheffield's review is an additional opinion, unrelated to the former: "It's also sweet how she honors so many of her female New Wave icons." -- Lapadite ( talk) 03:34, 5 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, note - Sheffield states: "Manson steals the show, of course, preening with enough slinky wit in her voice to win you over even when she's rhyming "happy hours" with "golden showers."" → your version reads: "Manson remains the highlight because of how her seductive singing evokes new wave greats and helps appropriate the band's complex sounds into a well-crafted, original rock album." Sheffield does not say Manson is the highlight because she evokes new wave greats, so it is not appropriate to have it in that context as it's original research/not sticking to source. The following sentence in Sheffield's review is an additional opinion, unrelated to the former: "It's also sweet how she honors so many of her female New Wave icons."
The Age rating is out of 4 stars; e.g.,
[5],
[6],
[7]. --
Lapadite (
talk)
12:36, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
It is my contention that this revision by Lapadite77 does not improve the article, for the reasons I've outlined below in my comments. This is the current version of the section in question, after I tried to condense what was added accordingly. Dan56 ( talk) 13:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
I feel it overloads the section with quotations used without pertinence, with regurgitated praise from any reviewer available. Lapadite77 did not even paraphrase these overlong quotes or fragments from the source, which present nothing new or unique from what had previously been in the section and amounts to redundant guff. Using too many quotes is incompatible with encyclopedic writing. ( WP:QUOTEFARM) A criticism or reception section is not meant to be a complete list of all praise or criticism, but rather to provide readers with a representative sample of how this album has been received. ( WP:NIF#Red flags) Furthermore, whatever paraphrasing was done in this revision is poor and non-neutral, particularly the paragraph given to the Baltimore Sun reviewer, at least half of which comprises quoted material, as does the four-sentence quotation from a review by About.com. The section should be readable and representative of the unique points made about this album, not comprehensive and bludgeoning readers with the same thing being said in a different way. Erroneous also was moving a paragraph on the album's rankings in critics' polls out of the "accolades" section. Dan56 ( talk) 13:41, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Comment: I will repost my comment from the above section regarding Dan56's edit:
Dan56, as I stated in the edit summary to the revert, you were removing multiple reviews added in prose from the album ratings box and while I'm augmenting/improving the article (which is disruptive at best); moreover, contrary to your arbitrary objection to quotes here, per the guideline WP:QUOTEFARM (as you cited), the quotes used are not long, comprise of "smaller portions of quotation", are "provided an appropriate context", they do not remotely "dominate the article" and much paraphrase is already used; "Provided each use of a quotation within an article is legitimate and justified there is no need for an arbitrary limit". Regarding About.com's reliability, there is a table of About critics linked in the very section you cited. The writer sourced in the article is considered reliable.
(bolding the following as Dan56 put forth a misleading "revision" in the RfC which is not actually the revision in question, this version of the section is - improvements Dan56 does not want - vs Dan's version (excising reviews)): I had already restored the erroneous removal of an equal Rolling Stone rating in the album ratings box, so why bring it up? Clearly not relevant to the issue raised. The section is perfectly readable and representable, not repetitive, not remotely POV-hindered; all but two reviews used are directly from those cited on the album ratings box. Newsweek's was already there, a reliable source, and the About.com writer sourced is reliable per Wikipedia as noted above. However I do find suspect your insistence on removing these reviews (which are positive in nature, but represented fairly) with claims of POV, particularly given your prior edits here seemingly pushing certain reviews that contained particular genres (e.g., [8]) + this claim of retrospective reviews not being valid here [9] when you added one yourself. Regarding the article's subject, It should also be noted that this is evidently a major, famous album with plenty of media coverage, major publication reviews, and accolades, and it should not remotely be subjected to a diminutive reception section, especially if this were to be considered for a GA or FA status in the future. The implication that there are too many reviews is just ridiculous. -- Lapadite ( talk) 13:56, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
Comment: I don't see Lapadite's revision as problematic per se. I'm unaware of a strict limit to the size of reception sections, and WP:QUOTEFARM is kind of vague, so if Dan56 feels it is too long, he can make it shorter by cutting excesses. He could even take out a couple of reviews if they make the section too repetitive, but simply removing everything Lapadite added seems drastic. Victão Lopes Fala! 16:03, 31 January 2015 (UTC)
In terms of general sound and sensibility, it's not all that different from the band's 1995 debut. We get the same blend of guitar crunch and automaton thump in the instrumental tracks, the same fondness for exotic textures and sudden bursts of noise, the same combination of sex and sass in the vocals. ... except that it's better the second time around .... That's pretty much the effect Garbage is going for with its sophomore release ... This is definitely not an attempt at reinvention ... the album does make improvements, and good ones at that.
Note I'd like to note, before any uninvolved admin closes this discussion, that Lapadite77 solicited comments ( [14], [15]) from editors they had worked with on other "Garbage" articles and had solicited comments in a non-neutral way ( [16], before in another content dispute, ( WP:RfC#Publicizing an RfC, WP:CANVASS) or for their known opinion or viewpoint, considering Coemgenus had reviewed and passed ( [17]) an article Lapadite77 cited above as precedent for justifying their edits here. Dan56 ( talk) 09:04, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
I don't know why Dan56 is now writing in the above section while this is still open, but all editors interested please see the above section (as well as this and this section) regarding Dan's recent edits (including reversals again). I strongly encourage others to chime in, especially as Dan56 continues WP:OWN and WP:TE habits. Pinging users that have commented above: Victor Lopes, Igordebraga. -- Lapadite ( talk) 17:42, 3 February 2015 (UTC)
I've been skimming more of Contemporary Musicians and found that this album received "somewhat mixed reviews". In light of this, the Critical reception section will have to be restructured. Dan56 ( talk) 20:04, 8 February 2015 (UTC)
Again, there's no indication that you actually accessed the source yourself as oppose to just copying a citation found on a site and writing a sentence based on its title. "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material", "To request verification that a reference supports the text, tag it with {{verification needed}}. Material that fails verification may be tagged with {{failed verification}} or removed.", "Don't cite a source unless you've seen it for yourself".
Dan56, regarding date formats, need I remind it was you who changed the European/most of the world date format to the North American one: [18]. I will continue the current format, but you erred in actuality, MOS:DATEUNIFY, for changing a consistent date format (the ones using slashes could've just been expanded). -- Lapadite ( talk) 00:59, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
While accusing me in bad faith of tagging this statement, Lapadite77 believes the source he cited to support "...backed with innovative music videos" verifies that the music videos were in fact "innovative". I contend that it does not explicitly state or support this album's videos were "innovative". This discussion concerns WP:PEA and OR guidelines. Dan56 ( talk) 05:38, 12 February 2015 (UTC)
Peacock terms like "innovative" should be attributed ( WP:PEA) Furthermore, the source cited-- Rolling Stone's Colleen Nika-- does not say the videos for this album were "innovative". She says "[Manson's] roles in Version 2.0's clips grew ever more adventurous." Dan56 ( talk) 15:12, 10 February 2015 (UTC)
Diff of revisions being argued for by me and Lapadite77. I originally added this text on February 10, before Lapadite77 removed it altogether, which I reverted, and he then revised while accusing me of cherry picking. This is the complete text from Stephen Dalton's review for NME magazine. Dan56 ( talk) 03:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
My revision is faithful to Dalton's conclusion and essential points and complaints with the album--Manson's lyrics --> "Ultimately, though, Shirley's lyrics remain the album's focus - and, alas, its weak link.", and in the last few sentences of his review, that the band's music is unmemorable and unadventurous --> "Ultimately, Garbage are still too harmless, too guileless, too unassuming to hate. But it's equally difficult to imagine ever feeling impassioned, intoxicated or even mildly moved by their business-class executive rock and cartoon-vamp posturing. 'Version 2.0' is state-of-the-art corporate software: virus free, millennium friendly, functional and slick. But, outside of office hours, pretty damn forgettable." Dan56 ( talk) 03:45, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
Correction of misleading info - I initially removed it because Dan56 had not provided a way to verify the sources. He did later. NME's is revised as, like many instances before, it is cherry picked. Dan56 himself noted in an above section that NME review is of mixed nature (not negative); his paraphrasing does not entirely
WP:STICKTOSOURCE and does not represent the nature of the review. My revision concisely, proportionally, while minimizing quotes, - things Dan56 has argued here are necessary - represents it. Dan56 has been called out multiple times on his
tendentious editing, and it has been clear he is biased against the subject of this article. --
Lapadite (
talk)
03:55, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
WP:BRD - Dan56, quit misrepresenting and violating BRD. Your edit (initial NME/Times addition) was reverted, your restoring of it was revised, and your revert of it (which took it back to the initial state (which I challenged) was reverted. Per BRD (and obviously WP:EW) you should not continue reverting/restoring such until an understanding is reached on talk page, like my edit summary says. -- Lapadite ( talk) 04:33, 13 February 2015 (UTC)
I brought up in one of the above threads that the CNN and CMJ profile pieces on Garbage shouldn't have been added because they are not actual reviews and the section already gives undue weight to positive reviews of the album, so I removed them from this article's Critical reception section, before being reverted by Lapadite77, who claimed my removal constituted "POV-pushing edits, removing + reviews from reliable sources".
Comment and clarification - Reviews given in profiles/interviews by reliable sources are used throughout many articles, GAs and FAs. That an article contains an interview or is a profile on a subject does not mean, in theory or practice, a review given by the source is consciously biased in either way. WP:BIASED, it is not our job to try to assess what we think are biases in sources - which all inherently have - and select them or their statements as per our own; we present the viewpoint. The section already gives undue weight to positive reviews of the album is telling. Dan56 has linked again (misleading readers of only this section) a source who's content in question was challenged, and notably contradicted by multiple other sources in an RfC above. -- Lapadite ( talk) 05:53, 19 February 2015 (UTC)
Wow. I really had no life these years... Piotr Jr. ( talk) 01:48, 3 August 2021 (UTC)
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