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A good deal of this article is also present here, although it is perfectly possible that the site instead copied from the Wikipedia article. Could someone track this down? RJC Talk 04:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
While inserting some additional info into a currency ref, I found this ref to the Vermont Republic. Since becoming aware of the whole secession kerfuffle and its claims re state history, I've been looking back through my own texts and am finding no ref to a Vermont Republic per se. I'm aware of the Vermont Republic article but since the ref has bled over to the History section of Vermont I thought I'd start here. Where and if possible, would like to see articles improved to show/reflect historic usage. Present capitalization seems to be only traceable to this decade or perhaps in some earlier whimsical novels of the 20th century. My own personal collection of Vermont maps include 18th century and have no ref to a Vermont Republic or Republic of Vermont. Earliest text ref I have includes repro of map (from Bernard Romans, A Chorographical Map of the Northern Department of North America Amsterdam, 1780) that was from a first edition printed in New Haven in 1778; is the first known "to show Vermont as Vermont" and identifies area as State of Vermont, from a Rutland Historical Society Quarterly Vol. XII, No. 1, 1982. A second comes from J. Kevin Graffagnino, Director of the Vermont Historical Society, The Shaping of Vermont Vermont Heritage Press, 1983, p. 58, that shows Vermont as, coincidentally, the first individual state map to be published in the United States, dated on or before January 15, 1789 (based on diary entry 1/15/1789). The map cartouche text reads A Topographical Map of the State of Vermont and is, Most Humbly Dedicated To His Excellency Thomas Chittenden, Esq, Governor and Commander in Chief; The Honorable Council, and the Honorable the (sic) Representatives of said State by Col. William Blodgett, who had resided in Bennington (1786-1788) before moving to New Haven. Additionally, the Act passed at the 3rd Session of the Congress of the United States in Philadelpha, on December 6, 1790, contains only refs to a State of Vermont. Historic usage seems to be State of Vermont. Vermont Republic, as noted in Vermont Republic, does not make clear that the title is a modern development from the mid (at best) 20th century. PeterInVT ( talk) 20:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've continued to search for references to a Vermont Republic. While I am coming across a number of references to a republic, seeming to describe governance, there is no documentable Vermont Republic mentioned in any fashion in records of the time. Both constitutions ( 1777/ 1786) refer 9 and then 10 times to a "State of Vermont." There are a couple of references alternatively to a "Commonwealth of Vermont" but the preponderance of references were to "State of Vermont." Acts enabled under the constitution in place prior to admission to the United States were "hereby enacted by the General, Assembly of the State of Vermont." Oaths and allegiances under each constitution are made to the "State of Vermont." The constitution requires that the representative body be called "The General Assembly of the State of Vermont."
Given that the members of the Congress of the Confederation at the time were referred to in their documents, such as the Articles of Confederation, as "independent States," it would appear that this is a more accurate descriptive for Vermont's status during that time, that is, "the independent State of Vermont."
Perhaps conclusively, the act voted on to admit Vermont to the Union in the third session of the First Congress was titled "An Act for the admission of the State of Vermont into this Union," and begins, "The State of Vermont having petitioned the Congress to be admitted a member of the United States."
I'd like to get some discussion on what are, I believe to be, requisite changes to a number of articles pertaining to Vermont that must be made to accurately reflect the true history of Vermont. PeterInVT ( talk) 22:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree, it not only doesn't need its own section but that it's not a major history item for the state of Vermont. Its presence only encourages others to do the same for posthumous fame. I recommend removal. - Denimadept ( talk) 23:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
That picture on the main page is of the local church in Marlboro, which is referred to as the "meeting house". However, Town Meeting does not occur there, rather, it occurs in a different building to the North. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.15.90 ( talk) 14:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the new material. Footnotes are necessary. Please see WP:FOOT.
Other entries violated WP:POV.
The entry on Bernie Sanders is either here or in forked article.
Entry about Republic is discussed in Vermont Republic.
Our current article on Vermont is too long. We need to ensure entries are made in forked (subsidiary) articles before putting them here. In many cases the Vermont article is just a summary of the most important items.
Some of the material on unions could be useful. It must be footnoted however. We need to discuss, with other editors where it goes. What the unions support or don't support may be political and care should be taken so entries don't violate WP:POV. Entries should be well documented from the paper or respected online sources. Also, there may be issues of undue weight. (Quoting from memory:) "wikipedia is not a soapbox."
The material on High Bailiff was interesting. It is, however, covered in that article in a bit more detail. I just added a pointer to this in Government of Vermont.
It may be useful to get the opinion of someone on the discussion page prior to making extensive entries. Student7 ( talk) 12:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Magic Mountain should be added to the list of ski resorts because Magic Mountain was the birthplace of snowboarding -- even the Burton logo has a shape that is based on the Magic Mountain trails since he looked out his window and saw that the trails looked like his initials. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 18:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This section has become a monster, in some cases overshadowing the "main" article which is supposedly the History of Vermont. I've merged everything up to the main article and now need to shorten this one. The Vermont article has been too long for a long time. This is an obvious place to chop. Student7 ( talk) 01:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders is not the only Member of Congress who does not affiliate with a political party. Senator Lieberman is also an independent, albeit it an "Independent Democrat." It's just a name. As far as the Senate is concerned, there are two independent Senators even though BOTH Lieberman and Sanders are members of the Democratic Caucus. Epicadam ( talk) 23:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
After I inserted the states that border Vermont in the infobox, I questioned whether Quebec should be there as well in the edit summary. After THAT, I checked several other states that shared a border with Canada. None of them mentioned Canada. It's just a "style" thing I suppose. I would have left it out, but since it's there now, I'm not about to delete it. Student7 ( talk) 12:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
A "MY turn" editorial in the Burlington Free Press cited some reasons why Vermont is having trouble attracting business and therefore raising additional taxes for whatever (social and environmental stuff, for example). This editorial cannot be used since the author, however well-stated, is not 1) a reporter subject to editorial scrutiny, nor 2) a noteworthy researcher. Anyway his points were specifically:
Author claims Vermont is:
An unbiased author predicts that Vermont will be in the economic doldrums for the "next 30 years" a severe indictment. Have a good reference for this.
Anyway, if an reputable economist or other scholar comes up with anything like the above, it should go into this article or one allied with Vermont. I'm not sure those are all of equal importance. For example, the circ seemed a little provincial to me, but it does affect the prime region of the state. I didn't understand the "energy" comment entirely, but the legislature trying to put Vermont Yankee out of business may be smart environmentally, but it seems to me pretty stupid economically seeing as there is no replacement. Permitting is a problem everywhere but maybe worse in Vermont. I don't know. Student7 ( talk) 02:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
ok, you deleted this article agfain, but please, if you can write it better , do it and insert it correctly ! ^^
In recent yeasrs, there grow the idea of the secession of Vermont to form the so-called "second Vermont Republic" or to join canada as a province. The biigest movement is called second vermont republic, which was founded by Thomasn Naylor in 2003, a former Duke University economics professor. The group organizes iner alia demonstrations, websites and selling of T-shirt with growing success. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny-bollock-rotten ( talk • contribs) 07:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
because this is an article bout vermont and you should mention the secession movement there!^^ ( Johnny-bollock-rotten ( talk) 13:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC))
du lolepeter!(
Johnny-bollock-rotten (
talk) 12:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC))
Frankslapperinni ( talk) 14:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC) The secession issue is a joke. I live in Vermont and can tell you that the only people who pay attention to this are out-of-staters and ski-tycoons. The actions taken by Killington mountain to attempt to skimp out on their taxes by seceding to New Hampshire (who has higher property tax anyways) are largely seen as foolish, misinformed, and a grand gesture that in the end was fruitless. Perhaps there are groups looking to start a different secession or join Canada, but these radical groups are not in anyway widespread or publicly supported, and do not deserve to be in this article any more than "Vermont UFO fanatics" or "Vermont Breatharians" do.
I think that a numbered list of governors is okay, just needed to be "hidden." Tried to do that (without numbering) and messed it up so restored original. Thoughts? Student7 ( talk) 12:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
What exactly does the "North East Kingdom" designate? I presume that it is some kind of geographical or historical designation. The Northern Vermont media does make reference to it; however, it is assumed that the listener or viewer is familiar with what the "North East Kingdom" designates.
First, what is the "North East Kingdom"?
And, should it be in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.25 ( talk) 14:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
A statement under Economy reads "The accompanying lack of industry has allowed Vermont to avoid many of the ill-effects of 20th century industrial busts, effects that still plague neighboring states." This seems weasel-y, fox and the grapes. At least it needs a counter-balance to the effect that the state is having difficulty raising money to meet "increased public demand for services." Like pay raises for government employees, for example. Kind of pov so far. Wouldn't hurt to have a scholarly footnote added to the above either, while we are at it. Student7 ( talk) 02:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I was simply quoting the Wikipedia caution at the beginning of any edit which states: "This page is 95 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See Wikipedia:Article size." I thought that cautioning editors about the length of the article was a no-brainer. It wasn't any conscious decision on my part. Shall we complain to the admins to remove the length complaint? Student7 ( talk) 12:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I found an apparent contradiction between the pages for the states of Oregon and Vermont. In the religion section, Oregon's page claims that Oregon is tied with Colorado as a state with the third largest proportion of non-religious people behind Washington and Vermont. Vermont's page, on the other hand, suggests that Vermont is tied with Oregon in this category, behind Washington. A citation is needed in this paragraph, as well. Obviously the two people had different sources for their information. I'm not particularly skilled at fixing pages, so I'm just throwing this out there. Am I splitting hairs?
Vermont now has the highest percentage of non-religious: see http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm
A long time ago I promised to move the lengthy history down to the main article "History of Vermont." I finally did that some months ago. Tried to summarize this and failed, essentially. Needs to be cut in half again. If you can help, please do so! Student7 ( talk) 00:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
We really need to start distinguishing between geographic areas and the current government of same. In larger cities, they often have "modern city or Rome" and "ancient city of Rome." It is silly to suggest that Rome was founded in 1867 (or whatever) when the Italian Republic was created.
Similarly in Vermont, the area has been here and identifiable for millenia. To say that "it" was founded in 1791 is fatuous. The state had a European style constitution that year. The "founding" is very appropriate to the "Government of Vermont", but not this article. Student7 ( talk) 18:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The independent period of Vermont is extremely important to document thoroughly here, as it has essentially been excised from standard American history, and most Americans are not aware of it.
The issues are:
BindingArbitration ( talk) 10:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)BA
I inserted the following information under Demographics: "In 2006, the state had the second lowest rate of births to teenagers, 20.8 per 1,000.<ref>New Hampshire was lower with 18.7 births per 1,000</ref><ref>{{cite book | author = |title = Report: Teen birth rates up in 26 states | publisher = Burlington Free Press | date = January 8, 2009}}</ref>"
An editor reverted it with the summary that the number of statistics like this were nearly infinite. Where do we stop?
I can't really argue the point. Yet, it seems to me that there ought to be someplace where statistics that place Vermont high or low in the country should be someplace. Perhaps a forked demographics article? Other states must have run into this. Probably the larger states have too much information anyway and so any excuse for deleting something is welcomed! :) Not so Vermont!
In this particular case, readers might infer that their taxes weren't all going to "welfare mothers" as some of them seem to think!
While it seems unlikely today, I don't know why all statistics that are collected shouldn't go (or be summarized) somewhere in a (probably forked) article. Just my thought. Student7 ( talk) 23:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This photo is of poor quality. I would suggest if there is no way of improving the picture it should be deleted. Misortie ( talk) 15:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
A blurb blandly explains that "in the latter half" of the 20th century greedy developers wanted to develop land. Vermont's legislature boldly responded with Act 250, etc. designed to prevent the loss of farms. Right. The number of farms dropped by 90%. So it failed miserably. The upshort was to raise property values in cities. True or false? Or was it a "green" initiative to keep land vacant to look at? Or what? And is there anything scholarly out there that makes any sense of this? Student7 ( talk) 02:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The reference to moose invading cities was perhaps too obscure for an encyclopedia but seemed unusual enough to report. These moose, while a potential threat, have not yet harmed any pedestrian. The ones on highways have resulted in a measurable number of deaths from collision. If it seems to difficult to make the distinction, I suppose it can be left the way it is with the moose on sidewalks reference dropped. Student7 ( talk) 12:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
per the suggestion on the editing page, I would move forward with this as it would cut down on the size of this article.-- Levineps ( talk) 01:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
A Pew report on Vermont was deleted. The report said that the state did well on (I am paraphrasing) personal (low-level) issues and high level issues but poorly on intermediate ones. This meant to me that on medical care (high level) it did well, recycling (done by individuals at the low level) it did well, but on road maintenance (for example) it did not do well, being neither a personal nor really a high level issue anymore.
So I thought a Pew report which seemed unbiased was important, Did it belong at this article level? That would be the question, not whether it was "junk" (the editors words) or not. Student7 ( talk) 12:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The Burlington Free Press had an article on average Vermont salaries for specific occupations. what Vermonters earn. Not quite sure how to work this into an article, but I think it should be somewhere. Student7 ( talk) 23:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I had inserted a quote from a study done by the Communications Workers of America (which seemed like a strange source at the time). Anyway, this study was later attacked in a Burlington Free Press editorial which stated that 1) there was no love lost between the workers and the telephone company that had taken over, and that 2) the samples for all states were "self-selected." That is, people registered under some site and measured and recorded their own speed. There was no controlled study. Further (total admission). There was no love lost between ME and the company that took over either! Several good reasons for excluding the study. But if a broadband study comes along that is controlled and unbiased, it would be of great interest. Student7 ( talk) 00:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I grew up in Vermont, and I have never once heard anyone pronounce the state with a rounded low back vowel at the end, this isn't even a standard American phoneme, or allophone for that matter. Can anyone object as to this claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DonConquistador ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
It is actually a phoneme in some parts of the Contry. It is like the first "o" in Boston in the Boston accent and in "hot" in British RP. Though, also being a native Vermonter, I have never heard this pronunciation either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.143.183 ( talk) 05:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Vermont is listed as the 49th most populous state on the list of states by population. On its own page it is listed as 41. I'd imagine the list is correct since the population number is the same on both pages. Kgromann ( talk) 16:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The article "Vermont Republic" states "Vermont did not send or receive diplomats." This article lists the places Vermont sent ambassadors. Humblehelper ( talk) 16:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually there was a good reason to have taxes forked. This article is already too long. We need to fork a lot more. Not restore forked material! Student7 ( talk) 20:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Dear folks,
the data about the population density in Vermont are incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.6.34 ( talk) 20:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I had inserted this text, reverted by another editor: "In 2010, the largest number of new jobs by far expected by 2018, were expected in personal and home-care aides, 426. This paid $10.32/hour. "Low-paying jobs account for most projected growth". Burlington, Vermont: Burlington Free Press. 12 September 2010. pp. 1C."
This is the sum total outlook for the entire state for the next 8 years. That is, virtually no new jobs, or very few new openings, in any other specialty. Perhaps it could be worded better or summarized better. Try the online article and summarize it yourself. This type of information is consistent with the rest of the economic outlook. I believe it is important. Student7 ( talk) 20:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I fear that a casual visitor may understand that the flag with the dark green field and blue canton is the actual flag of the Green Mountain Boys. I read in a previous century that the remnant of that flag is held in a museum, probably the Bennington Historical Museum, and that it consists of the canton and a few scraps of the field, all bleached practically white. That the canton was blue, and the field green and uncharged, are inferences. Perhaps a cautionary note would be in order. J S Ayer ( talk) 21:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The statement "Vermont is one of four states that were once independent nations (the others being Texas, California, and Hawaii)." is in error. Originally, all states in the US were independent countries. That's what "state" means, as in the "State of Denmark", or the "State of Germany".
The Federal Government of the United States was created to perform specific functions with specific limits per the original Constitution of the United States (and the unfortunate first 10 amendments, which never should have been allowed). The Constitution applied only to the Federal Government and not to the individual states. Over time, the Legislative Branch in cahoots with the Judicial Branch have transformed the Federal Government into the National Government, subjecting the states to the whims of the National Government. Now, citizens of the United States believe they are granted rights by the National Government through the Constitution, while the opposite is the truth. The Federal Government was granted rights by the states. All citizens of the states (and all other people) are born with all their rights. A government can do nothing but restrict rights, it cannot "give" them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.118.142.219 ( talk) 22:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The views of whoever wrote the above comment reflect a minority conspiratorial point of view, and a deeply mistaken one at that. The term "state" used to describe the original 13 colonies (which Vermont was not, btw) is not synonymous with the term "state" used to describe the "State of Denmark." Also, the US Constitution most certainly did "apply to" the several states upon ratification by the several states. Even a most cursory reading of the Constitution reveals that. However, I do agree that it is potentially misleading to allege that VT was an independent nation of the same ilk as TX, CA, and HI. Although there was a VT constitution, VT was not recognized as an independent state by any other nation, nor was its constitution in effect for very long. In fact, the territory that is now VT was claimed by NY and NH - both US states at the time. I think it would be more accurate to say that between independence from GB and statehood, there were elements in the area that was to become VT who fancied VT as an independent state, however the idea of VT as an independent state was never universally accepted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.251.182 ( talk) 20:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe that CA was ever recognized formally by many other countries if any, either. Were even TX and HI recognized by anyone other than the parties directly concerned (out of curiosity only)? In any case, that Vermont self-governed does warrant the "independence" label, I think, though it might be better called an "autonomous region". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.168.165 ( talk) 03:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
United States Bill of Rights and Timeline of drafting and ratification of the United States Constitution mention a peace treaty between New York and Vermont without explaining why a peace treaty was necessary or what this even means - and neither do the articles on these states nor even History of New York or History of Vermont. Very strange. -- Espoo ( talk) 22:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
There are red lines around 4 counties, Orleans, Franklin, the one Montpelier is in and the one to the south of that one. But not the other ten. An editor asks "why the red lines." I do not know. How can we get rid of them? Can we merely delete the map? Is it that vital? Student7 ( talk) 21:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Not sure that this goes here. Maybe we should have a "Media in Vermont" or something and summarize/fork this to it. We are not listing radio or television stations here (mercifully). We really shouldn't be listing, or encouraging others to list, individual media. It should be forked. Student7 ( talk) 19:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I am erasing the sentence referring to Samuel de Champlain and a map from 1647. Samuel de Champlain died in 1635, so for sure he did not draw a map in 1647. One person who seems to have studied greatly the origin of the name is Joseph-André Sénécal, who was professor at UVM (University of Vermont) and extensively studied French settlers in Vermont in the first half of the 18th century. See his article the name Vermont.
Someone has added, "Also, early leaders of the Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were born in Sharon and Whitingham respectively," alongside mention of Vermont's two presidents. All other Vermont notables are relegated to List of people from Vermont. I suggest that this entry should be deleted or more thought put into how notable one should be to receive special mention here. I will wait a week to delete, pending discussion. User:HopsonRoad 03:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I looked this name up in my dictionary and it had the pronunciation for it as /vɜˈmont/, where according to the Wikipedia Pronunciation Guide for English /ɜ/ can translate to /ɜr/ not /ər/, even though the stress is on the second syllable. The current pronunciation would indicate a pronunciation of "vuh-MONT" (which isn't correct for my dialect and doesn't match what is in my dictionary) rather than "vur-MONT" (which is correct for my dialect and does match what is in my dictionary). -- 121.219.21.117 ( talk) 00:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
The citation format for this article seems to have been established with this edit but it has since fallen into disarray. I do not recognize this format; does anyone know what it is? Jc3s5h ( talk) 16:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Lack of international recognition is neither a necessary nor a sufficient basis to deny the status of an entity that claims sovereignty. This is especially so in historical situations that bore little that resembled modern international diplomacy and communication systems. It is also true that, even today, there are independent countries whose territory is claimed in whole or in part by other nations (e.g., Belize, by Guatemala; Guyana, by Venezuela; the Armenia - Azerbaijan situation) and yet are welcomed into the community of nations.
Therefore, rationalizations made in hind-sight that seek to deny recognition of historical entities, such as the Republic of West Florida and the California Republic, are neither here nor there and ignore critical and salient factual considerations. It is necessary to look further afield to ascertain relevant data that, when taken into account as a whole body of data, may either support or deny a judgment of the extant realities of people who happen to have lived in the past.
To that point, the comparisons that follow are based on a subset of possible criteria that could be utilized in a consistent manner to arrive at conclusions. With this in mind, I argue the following:
The California Republic was never independent or sovereign because, among other things:
On the other hand, the Republic of West Florida was sufficiently independent to be considered sovereign.
None of the above reasons for denial to the California Republic of sovereign status applied in the case of the Republic of West Florida. In fact, the opposite did:
The above presents clear reasons why the California Republic should not be considered independent and sovereign, while on the other hand, the Republic of West Florida should be so considered.
Jeff in CA 03:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
The pronunciation is wrong. Vermont is pronounced /v3rmɑnt/. General American English does not possess the phoneme /ɒ/ - only /ɑ/. This needs to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.85.218.77 ( talk) 22:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Actually, the phoneme /ɑː/ is on that page (the colon indicates a long vowel). That page is ambiguous because it is for all varieties of English - if you look at the page for General American English, you will see that /ɑ/ exists along with /ɒ/, though /ɒ/ is only an allophone of /ɔ/. I don't see why using a diaphoneme is helpful in this case when the GA pronunciation is clearly not /ɒ/ (compare http://www.forvo.com/word/vermont/#en to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_rounded_vowel). 148.85.206.190 ( talk) 14:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes - in short, that is what I'm saying: the General American pronunciation of Vermont is closer to /ɑ/ than /ɒ/ (see the pronunciations I linked to above).. The only difference between /ɑː/ and /ɑ/ is vowel length. 148.85.206.190 ( talk) 01:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
The sound sample from OED (which isn't even American) is wrong. The "standard" pronunciation is definitely incorrect. Maybe that's what it's supposed to be pronounced (as if there is a standard), but it's almost never pronounced that way. The standard/common AE pronunciation is not with a voiceless alveolar plosive (like you're spitting out a "t" or the "t" in "tie") or pronounced fully unless it is deliberate. Almost everyone pronounces it (and other consonants) with a glottal stop of varying stresses if it occurs at the end of a word/pronunciation. The voiceless alveolar plosive or the /t/ is glottalized into /(ʔ)/, so another pronunciation that should be added is /vɜrmɑn(ʔ)/. - M0rphzone ( talk) 08:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I object to the conflation of French and French-Canadian ancestry in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. I've posted my reasons over at I object to this, and I've posted my reasoning over at the Maine talk page. — Quintucket ( talk) 16:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The Politics of Vermont article is a bit of a mess, and it turns out is being better handled here as is. Can we merge the relevant information from that article to further bolster this one instead of separating it out? Thargor Orlando ( talk) 14:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Your second paragraph mentions an Iroquois tribe. The Iroquois is actually a confederacy includes 6 tribes. I bet the Mohawks lived in Vermont. Dave Lewis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.111.39 ( talk) 22:48, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Within this article it says VT was the first state to legalize same sex marriage in the US. This is incorrect (I believe it was Massachusetts?) Somebody should look into this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.19.126 ( talk) 04:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
"In 2009 Vermont became the first state to approve same-sex marriage..." is how it's worded, with the "passing the statute without being forced by court challenge or ruling" coming afterwards. Perhaps it'd be smartest to put it beforehand? I'm no English teacher but it seems as if the sentence isn't exactly clear on that fact. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.10.19.126 (
talk) 06:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
"Farms in the state were estimated to have hired 2,000 illegal immigrants as of 2005. Local authorities have ignored the problem, sympathizing with the employers about being able to efficiently run a farm."
Never really edited Wikipedia before but I've read a lot from here and this doesn't seem to hold up to Wikipedia's standards. Perhaps I am wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.19.126 ( talk) 04:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
On two occasions, so far, I have reverted attempts to use the term, "woodchuck", even jocularly as a reference to native Vermonters. It's a sufficiently pejorative term that people don't refer to themselves as woodchucks, nor would they be pleased if you called them one. The same goes for "flatlander". As a Vermonter, I've heard the term applied exclusively to low-income rural residents of Vermont. I've never heard it applied to prosperous native Vermonters.
The most recent inclusion of "woodcock" in the article is in the "Demographics" section. Even assuming the jocular context that the citations use the term in, I still don't feel that a discussion of slang terms for native Vermonters or others belongs in the "Demographics" section. In my view, it's not consistent with an encyclopedic entry, but if such a discussion were to make an appearance, I'd put it into a "Popular culture" section. As to the underlying cultural tension between the values of multi-generational residents of Vermont versus the values of new arrivals, that's been a continuing theme of life in Vermont and is worthy of discussion. User:HopsonRoad 19:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm unconvinced that " Woodchuck Day" is primarily a celebration of native Vermonters. Elsewhere, it is a product promotion for a brand of Vermont hard cider, which depicts a real woodchuck on the label. I'm further unconvinced that Vermonters, who jokingly call themselves "woodchucks" or "flatlanders", would be pleased if someone called them that in Town Meeting. One could argue that the Stowe rendition of Woodchuck Day is an event held by flatlanders and not something condoned by those who are most frequently called woodchucks.
Self designation can take the sting off of what is usually an insult, e.g. the use by African Americans of the N-word in Boyz in the Hood and The Wire and the light-hearted fun in this Woodchuck of the Year contest held in 2010. The Quakers tolerated what was intended to be an insulting term, although they would prefer to be referred to collectively as the "Religious Society of Friends". I would like to see more evidence discussed here to leave the suggestion in the article that those terms are anything but mildly pejorative. User:HopsonRoad 14:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
The article says "Vermont was the first state to partially abolish slavery[7][8] while still independent." That was in 1777. But Rhode Island's article says "In 1652, Rhode Island passed the first abolition law in the thirteen colonies, banning African slavery." Rhode Island joined the union in 1776 before Vermont. They were both partial bans. So is Rhode Island first, not Vermont? Is the distinction that Vermont's constitution was the first to have a partial ban? Nearwater ( talk) 05:29, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The article French American describes French Canadians in Vermont as "largely assimilated" which matches my observations, as well. It is reliably cited.
However Politics_of_Vermont#Political_parties_in_Vermont describes French Vermonters as a bloc that votes Democrat 90% of the time! This approaches, if not exceeds the African American voting pattern. Many hardcopy citations are given to support this which I cannot verify. Can anyone help? Student7 ( talk) 19:54, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The Vermont#Religion section is incorrect per MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS. It says " Joseph Smith, Jr. and Brigham Young—the first two leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)".
At a minimum the sentence needs to reflect that Joseph Smith was the founder of the entire movement and Young was the second president of the LDS Church so " Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, and Brigham Young, the 2nd president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were both...." is correct per MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS.--- ARTEST4ECHO( Talk) 21:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Having reviewed MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS, I concur with the changes implemented by ARTEST4ECHO. User:HopsonRoad 13:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
A change today changed "illegal" to "undocumented" immigrants. As a Vermont notary and disaster volunteer for a well-known NGO, I object. I have encountered many Vermonters who lack the documents needed to get a regular, REAL ID driver license or state ID card, and instead settled for the Driver's Privilege Card, which can be obtained without proving legal presence in the US. The folks I encountered spoke with a Vermont accent and had family names that go back for centuries in Vermont; it was clear they were undocumented native-born American citizens. Although they were undocumented, they were neither illegal nor immigrants.
I am not the only one to notice this; see this news story. Jc3s5h ( talk) 15:02, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
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A good deal of this article is also present here, although it is perfectly possible that the site instead copied from the Wikipedia article. Could someone track this down? RJC Talk 04:33, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
While inserting some additional info into a currency ref, I found this ref to the Vermont Republic. Since becoming aware of the whole secession kerfuffle and its claims re state history, I've been looking back through my own texts and am finding no ref to a Vermont Republic per se. I'm aware of the Vermont Republic article but since the ref has bled over to the History section of Vermont I thought I'd start here. Where and if possible, would like to see articles improved to show/reflect historic usage. Present capitalization seems to be only traceable to this decade or perhaps in some earlier whimsical novels of the 20th century. My own personal collection of Vermont maps include 18th century and have no ref to a Vermont Republic or Republic of Vermont. Earliest text ref I have includes repro of map (from Bernard Romans, A Chorographical Map of the Northern Department of North America Amsterdam, 1780) that was from a first edition printed in New Haven in 1778; is the first known "to show Vermont as Vermont" and identifies area as State of Vermont, from a Rutland Historical Society Quarterly Vol. XII, No. 1, 1982. A second comes from J. Kevin Graffagnino, Director of the Vermont Historical Society, The Shaping of Vermont Vermont Heritage Press, 1983, p. 58, that shows Vermont as, coincidentally, the first individual state map to be published in the United States, dated on or before January 15, 1789 (based on diary entry 1/15/1789). The map cartouche text reads A Topographical Map of the State of Vermont and is, Most Humbly Dedicated To His Excellency Thomas Chittenden, Esq, Governor and Commander in Chief; The Honorable Council, and the Honorable the (sic) Representatives of said State by Col. William Blodgett, who had resided in Bennington (1786-1788) before moving to New Haven. Additionally, the Act passed at the 3rd Session of the Congress of the United States in Philadelpha, on December 6, 1790, contains only refs to a State of Vermont. Historic usage seems to be State of Vermont. Vermont Republic, as noted in Vermont Republic, does not make clear that the title is a modern development from the mid (at best) 20th century. PeterInVT ( talk) 20:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I've continued to search for references to a Vermont Republic. While I am coming across a number of references to a republic, seeming to describe governance, there is no documentable Vermont Republic mentioned in any fashion in records of the time. Both constitutions ( 1777/ 1786) refer 9 and then 10 times to a "State of Vermont." There are a couple of references alternatively to a "Commonwealth of Vermont" but the preponderance of references were to "State of Vermont." Acts enabled under the constitution in place prior to admission to the United States were "hereby enacted by the General, Assembly of the State of Vermont." Oaths and allegiances under each constitution are made to the "State of Vermont." The constitution requires that the representative body be called "The General Assembly of the State of Vermont."
Given that the members of the Congress of the Confederation at the time were referred to in their documents, such as the Articles of Confederation, as "independent States," it would appear that this is a more accurate descriptive for Vermont's status during that time, that is, "the independent State of Vermont."
Perhaps conclusively, the act voted on to admit Vermont to the Union in the third session of the First Congress was titled "An Act for the admission of the State of Vermont into this Union," and begins, "The State of Vermont having petitioned the Congress to be admitted a member of the United States."
I'd like to get some discussion on what are, I believe to be, requisite changes to a number of articles pertaining to Vermont that must be made to accurately reflect the true history of Vermont. PeterInVT ( talk) 22:05, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree, it not only doesn't need its own section but that it's not a major history item for the state of Vermont. Its presence only encourages others to do the same for posthumous fame. I recommend removal. - Denimadept ( talk) 23:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
That picture on the main page is of the local church in Marlboro, which is referred to as the "meeting house". However, Town Meeting does not occur there, rather, it occurs in a different building to the North. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.15.90 ( talk) 14:47, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I reverted the new material. Footnotes are necessary. Please see WP:FOOT.
Other entries violated WP:POV.
The entry on Bernie Sanders is either here or in forked article.
Entry about Republic is discussed in Vermont Republic.
Our current article on Vermont is too long. We need to ensure entries are made in forked (subsidiary) articles before putting them here. In many cases the Vermont article is just a summary of the most important items.
Some of the material on unions could be useful. It must be footnoted however. We need to discuss, with other editors where it goes. What the unions support or don't support may be political and care should be taken so entries don't violate WP:POV. Entries should be well documented from the paper or respected online sources. Also, there may be issues of undue weight. (Quoting from memory:) "wikipedia is not a soapbox."
The material on High Bailiff was interesting. It is, however, covered in that article in a bit more detail. I just added a pointer to this in Government of Vermont.
It may be useful to get the opinion of someone on the discussion page prior to making extensive entries. Student7 ( talk) 12:06, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Magic Mountain should be added to the list of ski resorts because Magic Mountain was the birthplace of snowboarding -- even the Burton logo has a shape that is based on the Magic Mountain trails since he looked out his window and saw that the trails looked like his initials. -- LegitimateAndEvenCompelling ( talk) 18:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
This section has become a monster, in some cases overshadowing the "main" article which is supposedly the History of Vermont. I've merged everything up to the main article and now need to shorten this one. The Vermont article has been too long for a long time. This is an obvious place to chop. Student7 ( talk) 01:21, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Bernie Sanders is not the only Member of Congress who does not affiliate with a political party. Senator Lieberman is also an independent, albeit it an "Independent Democrat." It's just a name. As far as the Senate is concerned, there are two independent Senators even though BOTH Lieberman and Sanders are members of the Democratic Caucus. Epicadam ( talk) 23:48, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
After I inserted the states that border Vermont in the infobox, I questioned whether Quebec should be there as well in the edit summary. After THAT, I checked several other states that shared a border with Canada. None of them mentioned Canada. It's just a "style" thing I suppose. I would have left it out, but since it's there now, I'm not about to delete it. Student7 ( talk) 12:29, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
A "MY turn" editorial in the Burlington Free Press cited some reasons why Vermont is having trouble attracting business and therefore raising additional taxes for whatever (social and environmental stuff, for example). This editorial cannot be used since the author, however well-stated, is not 1) a reporter subject to editorial scrutiny, nor 2) a noteworthy researcher. Anyway his points were specifically:
Author claims Vermont is:
An unbiased author predicts that Vermont will be in the economic doldrums for the "next 30 years" a severe indictment. Have a good reference for this.
Anyway, if an reputable economist or other scholar comes up with anything like the above, it should go into this article or one allied with Vermont. I'm not sure those are all of equal importance. For example, the circ seemed a little provincial to me, but it does affect the prime region of the state. I didn't understand the "energy" comment entirely, but the legislature trying to put Vermont Yankee out of business may be smart environmentally, but it seems to me pretty stupid economically seeing as there is no replacement. Permitting is a problem everywhere but maybe worse in Vermont. I don't know. Student7 ( talk) 02:27, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
ok, you deleted this article agfain, but please, if you can write it better , do it and insert it correctly ! ^^
In recent yeasrs, there grow the idea of the secession of Vermont to form the so-called "second Vermont Republic" or to join canada as a province. The biigest movement is called second vermont republic, which was founded by Thomasn Naylor in 2003, a former Duke University economics professor. The group organizes iner alia demonstrations, websites and selling of T-shirt with growing success. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnny-bollock-rotten ( talk • contribs) 07:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
because this is an article bout vermont and you should mention the secession movement there!^^ ( Johnny-bollock-rotten ( talk) 13:37, 28 July 2008 (UTC))
du lolepeter!(
Johnny-bollock-rotten (
talk) 12:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC))
Frankslapperinni ( talk) 14:24, 22 August 2008 (UTC) The secession issue is a joke. I live in Vermont and can tell you that the only people who pay attention to this are out-of-staters and ski-tycoons. The actions taken by Killington mountain to attempt to skimp out on their taxes by seceding to New Hampshire (who has higher property tax anyways) are largely seen as foolish, misinformed, and a grand gesture that in the end was fruitless. Perhaps there are groups looking to start a different secession or join Canada, but these radical groups are not in anyway widespread or publicly supported, and do not deserve to be in this article any more than "Vermont UFO fanatics" or "Vermont Breatharians" do.
I think that a numbered list of governors is okay, just needed to be "hidden." Tried to do that (without numbering) and messed it up so restored original. Thoughts? Student7 ( talk) 12:04, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
What exactly does the "North East Kingdom" designate? I presume that it is some kind of geographical or historical designation. The Northern Vermont media does make reference to it; however, it is assumed that the listener or viewer is familiar with what the "North East Kingdom" designates.
First, what is the "North East Kingdom"?
And, should it be in the article? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.211.195.25 ( talk) 14:20, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
A statement under Economy reads "The accompanying lack of industry has allowed Vermont to avoid many of the ill-effects of 20th century industrial busts, effects that still plague neighboring states." This seems weasel-y, fox and the grapes. At least it needs a counter-balance to the effect that the state is having difficulty raising money to meet "increased public demand for services." Like pay raises for government employees, for example. Kind of pov so far. Wouldn't hurt to have a scholarly footnote added to the above either, while we are at it. Student7 ( talk) 02:06, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I was simply quoting the Wikipedia caution at the beginning of any edit which states: "This page is 95 kilobytes long. It may be appropriate to split this article into smaller, more specific articles. See Wikipedia:Article size." I thought that cautioning editors about the length of the article was a no-brainer. It wasn't any conscious decision on my part. Shall we complain to the admins to remove the length complaint? Student7 ( talk) 12:22, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
I found an apparent contradiction between the pages for the states of Oregon and Vermont. In the religion section, Oregon's page claims that Oregon is tied with Colorado as a state with the third largest proportion of non-religious people behind Washington and Vermont. Vermont's page, on the other hand, suggests that Vermont is tied with Oregon in this category, behind Washington. A citation is needed in this paragraph, as well. Obviously the two people had different sources for their information. I'm not particularly skilled at fixing pages, so I'm just throwing this out there. Am I splitting hairs?
Vermont now has the highest percentage of non-religious: see http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2009-03-09-american-religion-ARIS_N.htm
A long time ago I promised to move the lengthy history down to the main article "History of Vermont." I finally did that some months ago. Tried to summarize this and failed, essentially. Needs to be cut in half again. If you can help, please do so! Student7 ( talk) 00:37, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
We really need to start distinguishing between geographic areas and the current government of same. In larger cities, they often have "modern city or Rome" and "ancient city of Rome." It is silly to suggest that Rome was founded in 1867 (or whatever) when the Italian Republic was created.
Similarly in Vermont, the area has been here and identifiable for millenia. To say that "it" was founded in 1791 is fatuous. The state had a European style constitution that year. The "founding" is very appropriate to the "Government of Vermont", but not this article. Student7 ( talk) 18:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
The independent period of Vermont is extremely important to document thoroughly here, as it has essentially been excised from standard American history, and most Americans are not aware of it.
The issues are:
BindingArbitration ( talk) 10:18, 26 November 2008 (UTC)BA
I inserted the following information under Demographics: "In 2006, the state had the second lowest rate of births to teenagers, 20.8 per 1,000.<ref>New Hampshire was lower with 18.7 births per 1,000</ref><ref>{{cite book | author = |title = Report: Teen birth rates up in 26 states | publisher = Burlington Free Press | date = January 8, 2009}}</ref>"
An editor reverted it with the summary that the number of statistics like this were nearly infinite. Where do we stop?
I can't really argue the point. Yet, it seems to me that there ought to be someplace where statistics that place Vermont high or low in the country should be someplace. Perhaps a forked demographics article? Other states must have run into this. Probably the larger states have too much information anyway and so any excuse for deleting something is welcomed! :) Not so Vermont!
In this particular case, readers might infer that their taxes weren't all going to "welfare mothers" as some of them seem to think!
While it seems unlikely today, I don't know why all statistics that are collected shouldn't go (or be summarized) somewhere in a (probably forked) article. Just my thought. Student7 ( talk) 23:13, 9 January 2009 (UTC)
This photo is of poor quality. I would suggest if there is no way of improving the picture it should be deleted. Misortie ( talk) 15:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
A blurb blandly explains that "in the latter half" of the 20th century greedy developers wanted to develop land. Vermont's legislature boldly responded with Act 250, etc. designed to prevent the loss of farms. Right. The number of farms dropped by 90%. So it failed miserably. The upshort was to raise property values in cities. True or false? Or was it a "green" initiative to keep land vacant to look at? Or what? And is there anything scholarly out there that makes any sense of this? Student7 ( talk) 02:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The reference to moose invading cities was perhaps too obscure for an encyclopedia but seemed unusual enough to report. These moose, while a potential threat, have not yet harmed any pedestrian. The ones on highways have resulted in a measurable number of deaths from collision. If it seems to difficult to make the distinction, I suppose it can be left the way it is with the moose on sidewalks reference dropped. Student7 ( talk) 12:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
per the suggestion on the editing page, I would move forward with this as it would cut down on the size of this article.-- Levineps ( talk) 01:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
A Pew report on Vermont was deleted. The report said that the state did well on (I am paraphrasing) personal (low-level) issues and high level issues but poorly on intermediate ones. This meant to me that on medical care (high level) it did well, recycling (done by individuals at the low level) it did well, but on road maintenance (for example) it did not do well, being neither a personal nor really a high level issue anymore.
So I thought a Pew report which seemed unbiased was important, Did it belong at this article level? That would be the question, not whether it was "junk" (the editors words) or not. Student7 ( talk) 12:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
The Burlington Free Press had an article on average Vermont salaries for specific occupations. what Vermonters earn. Not quite sure how to work this into an article, but I think it should be somewhere. Student7 ( talk) 23:40, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
I had inserted a quote from a study done by the Communications Workers of America (which seemed like a strange source at the time). Anyway, this study was later attacked in a Burlington Free Press editorial which stated that 1) there was no love lost between the workers and the telephone company that had taken over, and that 2) the samples for all states were "self-selected." That is, people registered under some site and measured and recorded their own speed. There was no controlled study. Further (total admission). There was no love lost between ME and the company that took over either! Several good reasons for excluding the study. But if a broadband study comes along that is controlled and unbiased, it would be of great interest. Student7 ( talk) 00:40, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
I grew up in Vermont, and I have never once heard anyone pronounce the state with a rounded low back vowel at the end, this isn't even a standard American phoneme, or allophone for that matter. Can anyone object as to this claim? —Preceding unsigned comment added by DonConquistador ( talk • contribs) 01:49, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
It is actually a phoneme in some parts of the Contry. It is like the first "o" in Boston in the Boston accent and in "hot" in British RP. Though, also being a native Vermonter, I have never heard this pronunciation either. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.169.143.183 ( talk) 05:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
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Vermont is listed as the 49th most populous state on the list of states by population. On its own page it is listed as 41. I'd imagine the list is correct since the population number is the same on both pages. Kgromann ( talk) 16:00, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
The article "Vermont Republic" states "Vermont did not send or receive diplomats." This article lists the places Vermont sent ambassadors. Humblehelper ( talk) 16:07, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually there was a good reason to have taxes forked. This article is already too long. We need to fork a lot more. Not restore forked material! Student7 ( talk) 20:59, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Dear folks,
the data about the population density in Vermont are incorrect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.176.6.34 ( talk) 20:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I had inserted this text, reverted by another editor: "In 2010, the largest number of new jobs by far expected by 2018, were expected in personal and home-care aides, 426. This paid $10.32/hour. "Low-paying jobs account for most projected growth". Burlington, Vermont: Burlington Free Press. 12 September 2010. pp. 1C."
This is the sum total outlook for the entire state for the next 8 years. That is, virtually no new jobs, or very few new openings, in any other specialty. Perhaps it could be worded better or summarized better. Try the online article and summarize it yourself. This type of information is consistent with the rest of the economic outlook. I believe it is important. Student7 ( talk) 20:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I fear that a casual visitor may understand that the flag with the dark green field and blue canton is the actual flag of the Green Mountain Boys. I read in a previous century that the remnant of that flag is held in a museum, probably the Bennington Historical Museum, and that it consists of the canton and a few scraps of the field, all bleached practically white. That the canton was blue, and the field green and uncharged, are inferences. Perhaps a cautionary note would be in order. J S Ayer ( talk) 21:41, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
The statement "Vermont is one of four states that were once independent nations (the others being Texas, California, and Hawaii)." is in error. Originally, all states in the US were independent countries. That's what "state" means, as in the "State of Denmark", or the "State of Germany".
The Federal Government of the United States was created to perform specific functions with specific limits per the original Constitution of the United States (and the unfortunate first 10 amendments, which never should have been allowed). The Constitution applied only to the Federal Government and not to the individual states. Over time, the Legislative Branch in cahoots with the Judicial Branch have transformed the Federal Government into the National Government, subjecting the states to the whims of the National Government. Now, citizens of the United States believe they are granted rights by the National Government through the Constitution, while the opposite is the truth. The Federal Government was granted rights by the states. All citizens of the states (and all other people) are born with all their rights. A government can do nothing but restrict rights, it cannot "give" them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.118.142.219 ( talk) 22:01, 21 January 2010 (UTC)
The views of whoever wrote the above comment reflect a minority conspiratorial point of view, and a deeply mistaken one at that. The term "state" used to describe the original 13 colonies (which Vermont was not, btw) is not synonymous with the term "state" used to describe the "State of Denmark." Also, the US Constitution most certainly did "apply to" the several states upon ratification by the several states. Even a most cursory reading of the Constitution reveals that. However, I do agree that it is potentially misleading to allege that VT was an independent nation of the same ilk as TX, CA, and HI. Although there was a VT constitution, VT was not recognized as an independent state by any other nation, nor was its constitution in effect for very long. In fact, the territory that is now VT was claimed by NY and NH - both US states at the time. I think it would be more accurate to say that between independence from GB and statehood, there were elements in the area that was to become VT who fancied VT as an independent state, however the idea of VT as an independent state was never universally accepted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.251.182 ( talk) 20:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)
I don't believe that CA was ever recognized formally by many other countries if any, either. Were even TX and HI recognized by anyone other than the parties directly concerned (out of curiosity only)? In any case, that Vermont self-governed does warrant the "independence" label, I think, though it might be better called an "autonomous region". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.165.168.165 ( talk) 03:30, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
United States Bill of Rights and Timeline of drafting and ratification of the United States Constitution mention a peace treaty between New York and Vermont without explaining why a peace treaty was necessary or what this even means - and neither do the articles on these states nor even History of New York or History of Vermont. Very strange. -- Espoo ( talk) 22:28, 6 January 2011 (UTC)
There are red lines around 4 counties, Orleans, Franklin, the one Montpelier is in and the one to the south of that one. But not the other ten. An editor asks "why the red lines." I do not know. How can we get rid of them? Can we merely delete the map? Is it that vital? Student7 ( talk) 21:53, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Not sure that this goes here. Maybe we should have a "Media in Vermont" or something and summarize/fork this to it. We are not listing radio or television stations here (mercifully). We really shouldn't be listing, or encouraging others to list, individual media. It should be forked. Student7 ( talk) 19:29, 27 February 2011 (UTC)
I am erasing the sentence referring to Samuel de Champlain and a map from 1647. Samuel de Champlain died in 1635, so for sure he did not draw a map in 1647. One person who seems to have studied greatly the origin of the name is Joseph-André Sénécal, who was professor at UVM (University of Vermont) and extensively studied French settlers in Vermont in the first half of the 18th century. See his article the name Vermont.
Someone has added, "Also, early leaders of the Church of Christ (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, were born in Sharon and Whitingham respectively," alongside mention of Vermont's two presidents. All other Vermont notables are relegated to List of people from Vermont. I suggest that this entry should be deleted or more thought put into how notable one should be to receive special mention here. I will wait a week to delete, pending discussion. User:HopsonRoad 03:01, 30 March 2011 (UTC)
I looked this name up in my dictionary and it had the pronunciation for it as /vɜˈmont/, where according to the Wikipedia Pronunciation Guide for English /ɜ/ can translate to /ɜr/ not /ər/, even though the stress is on the second syllable. The current pronunciation would indicate a pronunciation of "vuh-MONT" (which isn't correct for my dialect and doesn't match what is in my dictionary) rather than "vur-MONT" (which is correct for my dialect and does match what is in my dictionary). -- 121.219.21.117 ( talk) 00:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
The citation format for this article seems to have been established with this edit but it has since fallen into disarray. I do not recognize this format; does anyone know what it is? Jc3s5h ( talk) 16:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
Lack of international recognition is neither a necessary nor a sufficient basis to deny the status of an entity that claims sovereignty. This is especially so in historical situations that bore little that resembled modern international diplomacy and communication systems. It is also true that, even today, there are independent countries whose territory is claimed in whole or in part by other nations (e.g., Belize, by Guatemala; Guyana, by Venezuela; the Armenia - Azerbaijan situation) and yet are welcomed into the community of nations.
Therefore, rationalizations made in hind-sight that seek to deny recognition of historical entities, such as the Republic of West Florida and the California Republic, are neither here nor there and ignore critical and salient factual considerations. It is necessary to look further afield to ascertain relevant data that, when taken into account as a whole body of data, may either support or deny a judgment of the extant realities of people who happen to have lived in the past.
To that point, the comparisons that follow are based on a subset of possible criteria that could be utilized in a consistent manner to arrive at conclusions. With this in mind, I argue the following:
The California Republic was never independent or sovereign because, among other things:
On the other hand, the Republic of West Florida was sufficiently independent to be considered sovereign.
None of the above reasons for denial to the California Republic of sovereign status applied in the case of the Republic of West Florida. In fact, the opposite did:
The above presents clear reasons why the California Republic should not be considered independent and sovereign, while on the other hand, the Republic of West Florida should be so considered.
Jeff in CA 03:12, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
The pronunciation is wrong. Vermont is pronounced /v3rmɑnt/. General American English does not possess the phoneme /ɒ/ - only /ɑ/. This needs to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 148.85.218.77 ( talk) 22:14, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Actually, the phoneme /ɑː/ is on that page (the colon indicates a long vowel). That page is ambiguous because it is for all varieties of English - if you look at the page for General American English, you will see that /ɑ/ exists along with /ɒ/, though /ɒ/ is only an allophone of /ɔ/. I don't see why using a diaphoneme is helpful in this case when the GA pronunciation is clearly not /ɒ/ (compare http://www.forvo.com/word/vermont/#en to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_back_rounded_vowel). 148.85.206.190 ( talk) 14:35, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
Yes - in short, that is what I'm saying: the General American pronunciation of Vermont is closer to /ɑ/ than /ɒ/ (see the pronunciations I linked to above).. The only difference between /ɑː/ and /ɑ/ is vowel length. 148.85.206.190 ( talk) 01:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
The sound sample from OED (which isn't even American) is wrong. The "standard" pronunciation is definitely incorrect. Maybe that's what it's supposed to be pronounced (as if there is a standard), but it's almost never pronounced that way. The standard/common AE pronunciation is not with a voiceless alveolar plosive (like you're spitting out a "t" or the "t" in "tie") or pronounced fully unless it is deliberate. Almost everyone pronounces it (and other consonants) with a glottal stop of varying stresses if it occurs at the end of a word/pronunciation. The voiceless alveolar plosive or the /t/ is glottalized into /(ʔ)/, so another pronunciation that should be added is /vɜrmɑn(ʔ)/. - M0rphzone ( talk) 08:48, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
I object to the conflation of French and French-Canadian ancestry in Maine, New Hampshire, and Vermont. I've posted my reasons over at I object to this, and I've posted my reasoning over at the Maine talk page. — Quintucket ( talk) 16:46, 18 June 2013 (UTC)
The Politics of Vermont article is a bit of a mess, and it turns out is being better handled here as is. Can we merge the relevant information from that article to further bolster this one instead of separating it out? Thargor Orlando ( talk) 14:03, 14 March 2013 (UTC)
Your second paragraph mentions an Iroquois tribe. The Iroquois is actually a confederacy includes 6 tribes. I bet the Mohawks lived in Vermont. Dave Lewis — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.209.111.39 ( talk) 22:48, 18 February 2014 (UTC)
Within this article it says VT was the first state to legalize same sex marriage in the US. This is incorrect (I believe it was Massachusetts?) Somebody should look into this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.19.126 ( talk) 04:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
"In 2009 Vermont became the first state to approve same-sex marriage..." is how it's worded, with the "passing the statute without being forced by court challenge or ruling" coming afterwards. Perhaps it'd be smartest to put it beforehand? I'm no English teacher but it seems as if the sentence isn't exactly clear on that fact. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
134.10.19.126 (
talk) 06:02, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
"Farms in the state were estimated to have hired 2,000 illegal immigrants as of 2005. Local authorities have ignored the problem, sympathizing with the employers about being able to efficiently run a farm."
Never really edited Wikipedia before but I've read a lot from here and this doesn't seem to hold up to Wikipedia's standards. Perhaps I am wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.10.19.126 ( talk) 04:17, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
On two occasions, so far, I have reverted attempts to use the term, "woodchuck", even jocularly as a reference to native Vermonters. It's a sufficiently pejorative term that people don't refer to themselves as woodchucks, nor would they be pleased if you called them one. The same goes for "flatlander". As a Vermonter, I've heard the term applied exclusively to low-income rural residents of Vermont. I've never heard it applied to prosperous native Vermonters.
The most recent inclusion of "woodcock" in the article is in the "Demographics" section. Even assuming the jocular context that the citations use the term in, I still don't feel that a discussion of slang terms for native Vermonters or others belongs in the "Demographics" section. In my view, it's not consistent with an encyclopedic entry, but if such a discussion were to make an appearance, I'd put it into a "Popular culture" section. As to the underlying cultural tension between the values of multi-generational residents of Vermont versus the values of new arrivals, that's been a continuing theme of life in Vermont and is worthy of discussion. User:HopsonRoad 19:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm unconvinced that " Woodchuck Day" is primarily a celebration of native Vermonters. Elsewhere, it is a product promotion for a brand of Vermont hard cider, which depicts a real woodchuck on the label. I'm further unconvinced that Vermonters, who jokingly call themselves "woodchucks" or "flatlanders", would be pleased if someone called them that in Town Meeting. One could argue that the Stowe rendition of Woodchuck Day is an event held by flatlanders and not something condoned by those who are most frequently called woodchucks.
Self designation can take the sting off of what is usually an insult, e.g. the use by African Americans of the N-word in Boyz in the Hood and The Wire and the light-hearted fun in this Woodchuck of the Year contest held in 2010. The Quakers tolerated what was intended to be an insulting term, although they would prefer to be referred to collectively as the "Religious Society of Friends". I would like to see more evidence discussed here to leave the suggestion in the article that those terms are anything but mildly pejorative. User:HopsonRoad 14:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
The article says "Vermont was the first state to partially abolish slavery[7][8] while still independent." That was in 1777. But Rhode Island's article says "In 1652, Rhode Island passed the first abolition law in the thirteen colonies, banning African slavery." Rhode Island joined the union in 1776 before Vermont. They were both partial bans. So is Rhode Island first, not Vermont? Is the distinction that Vermont's constitution was the first to have a partial ban? Nearwater ( talk) 05:29, 10 May 2014 (UTC)
The article French American describes French Canadians in Vermont as "largely assimilated" which matches my observations, as well. It is reliably cited.
However Politics_of_Vermont#Political_parties_in_Vermont describes French Vermonters as a bloc that votes Democrat 90% of the time! This approaches, if not exceeds the African American voting pattern. Many hardcopy citations are given to support this which I cannot verify. Can anyone help? Student7 ( talk) 19:54, 1 January 2015 (UTC)
The Vermont#Religion section is incorrect per MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS. It says " Joseph Smith, Jr. and Brigham Young—the first two leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (LDS Church)".
At a minimum the sentence needs to reflect that Joseph Smith was the founder of the entire movement and Young was the second president of the LDS Church so " Joseph Smith, founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, and Brigham Young, the 2nd president of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, were both...." is correct per MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS.--- ARTEST4ECHO( Talk) 21:37, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
Having reviewed MOS:LDS and WP:NCLDS, I concur with the changes implemented by ARTEST4ECHO. User:HopsonRoad 13:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
A change today changed "illegal" to "undocumented" immigrants. As a Vermont notary and disaster volunteer for a well-known NGO, I object. I have encountered many Vermonters who lack the documents needed to get a regular, REAL ID driver license or state ID card, and instead settled for the Driver's Privilege Card, which can be obtained without proving legal presence in the US. The folks I encountered spoke with a Vermont accent and had family names that go back for centuries in Vermont; it was clear they were undocumented native-born American citizens. Although they were undocumented, they were neither illegal nor immigrants.
I am not the only one to notice this; see this news story. Jc3s5h ( talk) 15:02, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
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