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Ehm, not sure why this was posted on the main page, but in Dutch the word "kill" does not exist. Dutch people use the words "verkeerd" and "verkeerde", but verkeerder is not a word in the Dutch language (except as a superlative of verkeerd, in which case it would mean "more wrong", as in "X is even more wrong than Y"). It seems far more likely that the language was Afrikaans, which is a daughter-language of Dutch. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 13:08, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
The article says:
“ | The stream's name means "wrong brook" in Dutch, the language of early settlers in the region, although it is not known how that came to be applied. | ” |
I cannot find any source that states that kill is a Dutch word. Kil or kille are Dutch words, but I don't think they mean the same as the English word brook. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 18:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
You may have noticed that the article Kill_(body_of_water), which you edited recently, also says that the original word was kille, not kill. It says: "The word comes from the Middle Dutch kille, meaning "riverbed" or "water channel""... The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 18:25, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
OK, I suppose after writing long responses that keep getting edit-conflicted that I see your point and will amend the article to note that "kill" is a word formerly used in Dutch. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:26, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I have reworded the text and added a note about how the Dutch would have spelled it.
In one of my earlier edits, I had theorized that perhaps when the English took over New Netherland after the Second Peace of Westminster they just started spelling it like the English word it sounded like to them (or dropped the "e" to make it easier to say). But I don't know this for sure, obviously.
But that spelling is so universal around here in all the stream and place names that everyone just pretty much accepts that that was the Dutch spelling. It's interesting ... I suppose there are some old Dutch maps of the region, but I don't know if anyone's ever looked at them to see if any of them use the "kill" spelling. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:40, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
It seems like "verkeerder" means:
I will probably edit this page during my quest for the truth, so you may end up with editconflicts, sorry.
This means that (if we assume that kill can be translated with the word brook, something which I am not sure of because the dictionaries do not give the same definition) we can translate Verkeerder Kill as:
The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 18:53, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I find the "wrong brook" explanation plausible because the Verkeerder drains into Shawangunk Kill just downstream of the even longer Pakanasink Creek on the other side, and I could see early settlers in the area, relying on deed or grant paperwork that used the names of streams without being too specific, confusing the two streams at first). Perhaps I should get in touch with Marc Fried at some point and see what his sources show for the earliest stated explanation of the name.
In short, I would like a broader consensus that the hook as stated is incorrect rather than just one of several possible explanations. Daniel Case ( talk) 19:58, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Even Marc Fried seems to corroborate what I have discovered so far. Quote: ""Why such a name was given to this stream has always been something of a mystery," writes Shawangunks historian Marc Fried. Since it can also have the sense of "perverse", he had at first speculated that perhaps the stream had been at flood stage when the first explorers came to it, or someone had fallen into it and inadvertently named it with an ensuing ill-tempered outburst. But then Fried consulted with an expert on the New Netherland era, who told him that if that strongly pejorative meaning had truly been intended, a word more fully conveying that sense like slecht or quaad (spelled kwaad in modern Dutch) would have been used instead".
Verkeerder does not mean wrong, but it can mean perverse. Marc Fried's speculated on what he believed to be the correct name. He consulted someone else, who also speculated, so lets not pretend that these are facts, it is simply speculation. Maybe a notable POV, but not an NPOV objective fact. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 20:09, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Also, I wonder if some later cartographer added the "-er" by accident or intent ... the name doesn't appear in print until about 1717, by which time English had made some major penetrations into the area (Also to be accounted for: a small but not insignificant German-speaking population, and some of the early settlers (particularly in New Paltz, not far away, being Flemish in origin (might that have introduced some dialectical quirk?)
I don't know whether Hardenbergh was a first-language Dutch speaker or not, but he would have had to file that paperwork in English. Did he write it himself? Have someone do it who just wrote down what he thought he heard and didn't ask questions? Daniel Case ( talk) 20:43, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Amberrock: Pinging because maybe you are interested in this article too, I saw your name on Template:Did you know nominations/Verkeerder Kill. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 19:25, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Now that it is clear that we simply do not know the real name, and we know that the source doesn't support the claims made in the article, I have moved the content here:
Extended content
|
---|
Dutch for "wrong brook" The stream's name means "wrong brook" in Dutch, the language of early settlers in the region, although it is not known how that came to be applied.<ref name="Marc Fried" /> In Dutch, the first language of Hardenburgh and other settlers who had moved into the Shawangunk Valley since the 1680s, " Verkeerder Kill" meant at the time "wrong brook." [a] "Why such a name was given to this stream has always been something of a mystery," writes Shawangunks historian Marc Fried. Since it can also have the sense of "perverse", he had at first speculated that perhaps the stream had been at flood stage when the first explorers came to it, or someone had fallen into it and inadvertently named it with an ensuing ill-tempered outburst. But then Fried consulted with an expert on the New Netherland era, who told him that if that strongly pejorative meaning had truly been intended, a word more fully conveying that sense like slecht or quaad (spelled kwaad in modern Dutch) would have been used instead.<ref name="Marc Fried" /> This led him to propose that perhaps the name merely indicated an inaccuracy. It was possible that a later group of explorers had reached the area, and originally believed the stream flowing in from the west to be the Pakanasink, only to later learn that that name was already used for the Shawangunk above the confluence. They might, he reasoned, have then begun referring to that western tributary as "the wrong brook", a name that might well have persisted after the distinction no longer needed to be made.<ref name="Marc Fried" /> |
Feel free to reinsert this content if you have a reliable source. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 21:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I was able to find this preview of the source through Google books. In case that link doesn't work for you, here is the direct quote:
The name Verkeerder Kill is derived from the Dutch "wrong stream," and the name stuck. — Marc B. Fried (2005) Shawangunk place-names: Indian, Dutch, and English geographical names of the Shawangunk Mountain region : their origin, interpretation, and historical evolution
Jonathunder (
talk) 00:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
A fact from Verkeerder Kill appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 7 March 2016 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Ehm, not sure why this was posted on the main page, but in Dutch the word "kill" does not exist. Dutch people use the words "verkeerd" and "verkeerde", but verkeerder is not a word in the Dutch language (except as a superlative of verkeerd, in which case it would mean "more wrong", as in "X is even more wrong than Y"). It seems far more likely that the language was Afrikaans, which is a daughter-language of Dutch. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 13:08, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
The article says:
“ | The stream's name means "wrong brook" in Dutch, the language of early settlers in the region, although it is not known how that came to be applied. | ” |
I cannot find any source that states that kill is a Dutch word. Kil or kille are Dutch words, but I don't think they mean the same as the English word brook. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 18:06, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
You may have noticed that the article Kill_(body_of_water), which you edited recently, also says that the original word was kille, not kill. It says: "The word comes from the Middle Dutch kille, meaning "riverbed" or "water channel""... The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 18:25, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
OK, I suppose after writing long responses that keep getting edit-conflicted that I see your point and will amend the article to note that "kill" is a word formerly used in Dutch. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:26, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I have reworded the text and added a note about how the Dutch would have spelled it.
In one of my earlier edits, I had theorized that perhaps when the English took over New Netherland after the Second Peace of Westminster they just started spelling it like the English word it sounded like to them (or dropped the "e" to make it easier to say). But I don't know this for sure, obviously.
But that spelling is so universal around here in all the stream and place names that everyone just pretty much accepts that that was the Dutch spelling. It's interesting ... I suppose there are some old Dutch maps of the region, but I don't know if anyone's ever looked at them to see if any of them use the "kill" spelling. Daniel Case ( talk) 18:40, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
It seems like "verkeerder" means:
I will probably edit this page during my quest for the truth, so you may end up with editconflicts, sorry.
This means that (if we assume that kill can be translated with the word brook, something which I am not sure of because the dictionaries do not give the same definition) we can translate Verkeerder Kill as:
The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 18:53, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I find the "wrong brook" explanation plausible because the Verkeerder drains into Shawangunk Kill just downstream of the even longer Pakanasink Creek on the other side, and I could see early settlers in the area, relying on deed or grant paperwork that used the names of streams without being too specific, confusing the two streams at first). Perhaps I should get in touch with Marc Fried at some point and see what his sources show for the earliest stated explanation of the name.
In short, I would like a broader consensus that the hook as stated is incorrect rather than just one of several possible explanations. Daniel Case ( talk) 19:58, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Even Marc Fried seems to corroborate what I have discovered so far. Quote: ""Why such a name was given to this stream has always been something of a mystery," writes Shawangunks historian Marc Fried. Since it can also have the sense of "perverse", he had at first speculated that perhaps the stream had been at flood stage when the first explorers came to it, or someone had fallen into it and inadvertently named it with an ensuing ill-tempered outburst. But then Fried consulted with an expert on the New Netherland era, who told him that if that strongly pejorative meaning had truly been intended, a word more fully conveying that sense like slecht or quaad (spelled kwaad in modern Dutch) would have been used instead".
Verkeerder does not mean wrong, but it can mean perverse. Marc Fried's speculated on what he believed to be the correct name. He consulted someone else, who also speculated, so lets not pretend that these are facts, it is simply speculation. Maybe a notable POV, but not an NPOV objective fact. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 20:09, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Also, I wonder if some later cartographer added the "-er" by accident or intent ... the name doesn't appear in print until about 1717, by which time English had made some major penetrations into the area (Also to be accounted for: a small but not insignificant German-speaking population, and some of the early settlers (particularly in New Paltz, not far away, being Flemish in origin (might that have introduced some dialectical quirk?)
I don't know whether Hardenbergh was a first-language Dutch speaker or not, but he would have had to file that paperwork in English. Did he write it himself? Have someone do it who just wrote down what he thought he heard and didn't ask questions? Daniel Case ( talk) 20:43, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
@ Amberrock: Pinging because maybe you are interested in this article too, I saw your name on Template:Did you know nominations/Verkeerder Kill. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 19:25, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
Now that it is clear that we simply do not know the real name, and we know that the source doesn't support the claims made in the article, I have moved the content here:
Extended content
|
---|
Dutch for "wrong brook" The stream's name means "wrong brook" in Dutch, the language of early settlers in the region, although it is not known how that came to be applied.<ref name="Marc Fried" /> In Dutch, the first language of Hardenburgh and other settlers who had moved into the Shawangunk Valley since the 1680s, " Verkeerder Kill" meant at the time "wrong brook." [a] "Why such a name was given to this stream has always been something of a mystery," writes Shawangunks historian Marc Fried. Since it can also have the sense of "perverse", he had at first speculated that perhaps the stream had been at flood stage when the first explorers came to it, or someone had fallen into it and inadvertently named it with an ensuing ill-tempered outburst. But then Fried consulted with an expert on the New Netherland era, who told him that if that strongly pejorative meaning had truly been intended, a word more fully conveying that sense like slecht or quaad (spelled kwaad in modern Dutch) would have been used instead.<ref name="Marc Fried" /> This led him to propose that perhaps the name merely indicated an inaccuracy. It was possible that a later group of explorers had reached the area, and originally believed the stream flowing in from the west to be the Pakanasink, only to later learn that that name was already used for the Shawangunk above the confluence. They might, he reasoned, have then begun referring to that western tributary as "the wrong brook", a name that might well have persisted after the distinction no longer needed to be made.<ref name="Marc Fried" /> |
Feel free to reinsert this content if you have a reliable source. The Quixotic Potato ( talk) 21:47, 7 March 2016 (UTC)
I was able to find this preview of the source through Google books. In case that link doesn't work for you, here is the direct quote:
The name Verkeerder Kill is derived from the Dutch "wrong stream," and the name stuck. — Marc B. Fried (2005) Shawangunk place-names: Indian, Dutch, and English geographical names of the Shawangunk Mountain region : their origin, interpretation, and historical evolution
Jonathunder (
talk) 00:25, 8 March 2016 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).