![]() | A fact from Venus and Adonis (Titian) appeared on Wikipedia's
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Did you know column on 19 August 2017 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
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Anyone wanting to see the individual articles combined here can look at the start of the page history here, when it was a disam page and all were listed. They all now redirect here. Apart from Madrid and Oxford they were very short stubs. They were:
Johnbod (
talk)
02:31, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
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I deleted this paragraph with the edit summary "irrelevant to air a fringe theory in a section on literature," which has since been reverted with the summary, "take it to talk."
There were print versions of the image, but Shakespeare mentions three times that Adonis wore a "bonnet" or hat,<1> which these do not have,<2> and from the surviving early versions, is only in the Rome, Dulwich and Alnwick ones. Supporters of the Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship argue that the real author of Shakespeare's works, Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, saw the Rome version at Titian's studio in Venice on his travels in Italy in 1575–76, and based his poem on it. This is regarded by some of them as a weighty piece of evidence supporting "Oxfordian" authorship.<3>
The references for this are as thus:
1.Magri, 86
2.Magri, 80. One of the Sadelers did a print of a "hat" version in 1610.
3.Magri, 87 and throughout; "Titian’s Painting of “Venus and Adonis” – Reason No. 13 Why Edward de Vere Earl of Oxford was “Shakespeare"
According to WP:FRINGE, If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner....If an article is written about a well-known topic about which many peer-reviewed articles are written, it should not include fringe theories that may seem relevant but are only sourced to obscure texts that lack peer review. Introducing a fringe topic in an article violates WP:ONEWAY, which states that Fringe views, products, or the organizations who promote them, may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way.
The material does not belong in this article on the basis of sourcing alone. The first source, Noemi Magri's Such Fruits Out of Italy, is special issue No. 3 of the Neues Shake-speare Journal, a German fringe publication that promotes the fringe theory that Edward de Vere, the 17th earl of Oxford, was secretly Shakespeare.
The second reference, "Titian’s Painting of “Venus and Adonis” – Reason No. 13 Why Edward de Vere Earl of Oxford was “Shakespeare," is a blog post by Hank Whittemore, an advocate of the same fringe theory. Neither of these sources are peer-reviewed nor are they considered to be reliable sources for this article.
Tom Reedy ( talk) 18:08, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
>>There's no good argument for keeping this, and it violates WP policy.
>I disagree on both points
Then give us the good argument for keeping it and explain how the sources confomr to WP policy. So far you haven't. Make the case for inclusion. Tom Reedy ( talk) 06:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm sure you don't give any credence at all to it, but that's not the point. The point is whether you give any credence to Wikipedia policy, which clearly states that it should be included only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way. That's it. If you want to include it in the Oxfordian theory page, fine. Tom Reedy ( talk) 04:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
WP:POINT is indeed instructive: If someone deletes from an article information which they call "unimportant" or "irrelevant", which you consider to in fact be important to the subject...do explain on the article's talk page why you feel the material merits inclusion. . . . If you think someone unfairly removed a reference to a self-published source...do explain why the use of the source in question was appropriate in that instance, or find a better source for the information.
Including material just because someone wants it in is not a reason for inclusion. Tom Reedy ( talk) 06:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() | A fact from Venus and Adonis (Titian) appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 19 August 2017 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
| ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||
|
Anyone wanting to see the individual articles combined here can look at the start of the page history here, when it was a disam page and all were listed. They all now redirect here. Apart from Madrid and Oxford they were very short stubs. They were:
Johnbod (
talk)
02:31, 25 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Venus and Adonis (Titian). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 09:14, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
I deleted this paragraph with the edit summary "irrelevant to air a fringe theory in a section on literature," which has since been reverted with the summary, "take it to talk."
There were print versions of the image, but Shakespeare mentions three times that Adonis wore a "bonnet" or hat,<1> which these do not have,<2> and from the surviving early versions, is only in the Rome, Dulwich and Alnwick ones. Supporters of the Oxfordian theory of Shakespeare authorship argue that the real author of Shakespeare's works, Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford, saw the Rome version at Titian's studio in Venice on his travels in Italy in 1575–76, and based his poem on it. This is regarded by some of them as a weighty piece of evidence supporting "Oxfordian" authorship.<3>
The references for this are as thus:
1.Magri, 86
2.Magri, 80. One of the Sadelers did a print of a "hat" version in 1610.
3.Magri, 87 and throughout; "Titian’s Painting of “Venus and Adonis” – Reason No. 13 Why Edward de Vere Earl of Oxford was “Shakespeare"
According to WP:FRINGE, If discussed in an article about a mainstream idea, a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight, and reliable sources must be cited that affirm the relationship of the marginal idea to the mainstream idea in a serious and substantial manner....If an article is written about a well-known topic about which many peer-reviewed articles are written, it should not include fringe theories that may seem relevant but are only sourced to obscure texts that lack peer review. Introducing a fringe topic in an article violates WP:ONEWAY, which states that Fringe views, products, or the organizations who promote them, may be mentioned in the text of other articles only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way.
The material does not belong in this article on the basis of sourcing alone. The first source, Noemi Magri's Such Fruits Out of Italy, is special issue No. 3 of the Neues Shake-speare Journal, a German fringe publication that promotes the fringe theory that Edward de Vere, the 17th earl of Oxford, was secretly Shakespeare.
The second reference, "Titian’s Painting of “Venus and Adonis” – Reason No. 13 Why Edward de Vere Earl of Oxford was “Shakespeare," is a blog post by Hank Whittemore, an advocate of the same fringe theory. Neither of these sources are peer-reviewed nor are they considered to be reliable sources for this article.
Tom Reedy ( talk) 18:08, 15 January 2023 (UTC)
>>There's no good argument for keeping this, and it violates WP policy.
>I disagree on both points
Then give us the good argument for keeping it and explain how the sources confomr to WP policy. So far you haven't. Make the case for inclusion. Tom Reedy ( talk) 06:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC)
I'm sure you don't give any credence at all to it, but that's not the point. The point is whether you give any credence to Wikipedia policy, which clearly states that it should be included only if independent reliable sources connect the topics in a serious and prominent way. That's it. If you want to include it in the Oxfordian theory page, fine. Tom Reedy ( talk) 04:36, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
WP:POINT is indeed instructive: If someone deletes from an article information which they call "unimportant" or "irrelevant", which you consider to in fact be important to the subject...do explain on the article's talk page why you feel the material merits inclusion. . . . If you think someone unfairly removed a reference to a self-published source...do explain why the use of the source in question was appropriate in that instance, or find a better source for the information.
Including material just because someone wants it in is not a reason for inclusion. Tom Reedy ( talk) 06:50, 23 January 2023 (UTC)