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The contents of the Ancestor worship page were merged into Veneration of the dead. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
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Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:18, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is the section on Native American practices written in the past tense? They're not dead. 2600:1700:7F0:C0D0:39AB:552D:B28E:D784 ( talk) 05:05, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
The link on the Hindu practice of Tarpan leads to an extinct horse, and even following the disambiguation from that page does not reveal any information on what Tarpan actually is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.218.187 ( talk) 03:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to see the pages combined under this title; as mentioned on Talk:Ancestor worship, "worship" is a fairly specific term which "veneration" broadens to other practices which don't fall under that particular lexicon. -- nae' blis 04:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I am anti-merge on this one. Although ancestor worship is part of veneration of the dead, ancestor worship is a big enough specialized topic to merit it's own page. For example, Saint Francis would fall under the general caregory of Saints or Christianity, but because there is enough independent information about ancestor worship, I think it should stay its own page. If I don't see more discussion on this in the coming month, I'm going to remove the merge tags. Avraham 01:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I would also prefer to keep the two topics separted, as "Ancestor Worship" usually relates to Confusian Chinese habits. In Chinese (and derived) cultures "Ancestor Worship" is already refined and specialized. In my opinion it is a topic on its own, as is also the major content of the article. I would suggest that the parts on "Ancestor Veneration in Poland", "Ancestor Veneration in America" and "Ancestor Veneration in Ireland" are moved to the article on "Veneration of the dead". In that article a reference to the "Ancestor Worship" in the Chinese Confusian sense could be provided.
I oppose merging. Ancestor Worship is, as User:IrishJew says, a topic that merits an article independent from the more general Veneration of the dead. I would ask my Chinese grandmother to contribute to this article, as she regularly worships her deceased parents-in-law on the Lunar New Year, birthdays, the regular New Year, and Christmas (go figure), but she's too old to master even a typewriter. Mang 06:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I am against merging, but I do think these categories should be completely rethought. "Veneration of the dead" is too weak and non-specific a term to encompass the various ancestor cults found throughout the world. Generally, the ancestors assume a sacred status and are thought actively to intervene in the affairs of the living--this anthropological phenomenon is broader than both "veneration" and "worship." Likewise, "veneration of the dead" is also not the correct term to describe the medieval "cult of the dead," in which the dead held an ambiguous status, stranded in purgatory; individuals were anxious to ensure that the living would remember to pray for them, while the living wanted to ensure that the dead made it safely through purgatory and did not return to haunt the living. "Worship of the ancestors" is also an outdated term. I think "ancestor cults" would be more appropriate and up-to-date. Thus I would propose "ancestor cults" as the general, global category, with the "cult of the dead" as a specific category for Christian Europe.
I've suggested that we merge the two articles. There was a discussion three years ago, but the articles have not moved on since then. My feeling is that if the articles were combined, the resulting article would be better and be easier to contribute to. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 16:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Right, now that these articles are merged, we need to organise the material better. (For those surprised at a merger, it was basically unopposed through lack of interest on either page, and supported on the WikiProject Religion page.)
There seems to be organisational tension between looking at religious teachings and at geographically based "traditional" teachings. Perhaps a split between the two, with religions being the dominant organising principle, and geographical variations and traditions explaining the messier stuff (such as syncretic practices) etc. which would be easier once a broad account of religious ideas has been set out.
Any opinions out there? VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 14:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
What about Japan? Why ain't it here? Ancestor worship is still quite popular there, and lets no forget that the samurais historically worshiped their ancestors. 142.169.126.86 ( talk) 03:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I think a section should be added concerning ancient Israel, given the emphasis on "fathers" and genealogies in the Bible. The succession of legendary patriarchs such as Noah, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), Judah, etc. suggests a cult of ancestors. 86.40.136.121 ( talk) 05:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Recently I removed the self-published Urglaawe spam on this page. However, another user reverted me without an explanation. What gives? :bloodofox: ( talk) 14:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I would like this article to have more information about this idea in Islam and Arabic Cultures. I was redirected here from the Wahhabism page. Given the actions and ideas of both Saudi Arabia and the Islamic State in this domain, I think it's particularly relevant. I don't really know what would be good to add or good sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.56.252 ( talk) 15:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Veneration which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 06:00, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why Eastern Orthodoxy and in particular Saturday of the Souls has not been included ? Iconography and veneration of the dead in the Saturday of the Souls leading up to the Eastern Paschal celebration is a distinct cultural practice compared to Roman Catholic traditions. The great schism between the Eastern and Western church was in part due to tradition and religious practice entailing veneration of Saints through "written" icons, the dead in one's family, and Orthodox Christians who died deprived of certain religious rites.
The addition of a suitably written section to cover these sociocultural practices would greatly improve the scope and quality of the article. Dr.khatmando ( talk) 01:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC) Dr.khatmando ( talk) 01:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
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I have a complaint. I was redirected to this page from "morthwyrtha" but that term appears nowhere on this page. What gives? Michaeld42 ( talk) 16:07, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
With a bit of searching, I found that "morthwyrtha" is defined in some dictionaries as "ancestor worship." On the other hand, Google Books finds the term used mainly by Edward Bulwar-Lytton in his novel "Harold" as a term for a particular person who worships the dead: "The Morthwyrtha, in her dark dress, stood within the circle of stones. ... In her right hand the Morthwyrtha held her seid staff, her feet were bare, and her loins girt by the Hunnish belt inscribed with mystic letters; from the belt hung a pouch, ..." but also as a term for a type of magical practice: "Hilda, who, despite all law and canon, was still believed to practise the dismal arts of the Wicca and Morthwyrtha (the witch and worshipper of the dead)." Both of these quotes from "Harold" by Bulwer-Lytton. I don't know how much of this is appropriate for this article, but I was keenly disappointed by not seeing any hint of reference to "Morthwyrtha" in this article after being redirected to it. Michaeld42 ( talk) 16:28, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
"In some Afro-diasporic cultures, ancestors are seen as being able to intercede on behalf of the living, often as messengers between humans and God."
NO QUOTE!
? the-divine? the gods? excuse me? Clarify/re-word please.
Truly indigenous (actually- )African, would not even believe IN, the carelessly left-ambiguous-but-flexible "God", that the line does not further-specify between - or at least most of them - the few cultures that've formed since (presumably) Judaism/Islam/Christianity's arrival, that have supposedly un-interfered-with choices to have, either or more than one of the 3 as a critical part of their culture, or, 'naturally' developed with it without any outside influence (practically impossible these days), would be the exception to the rule, but even then, considering that their culture would be only then partially African-originating, although one could say that the culture in Q IS African, it would STILL be mis-leading, to leave the two associated. 120.21.175.101 ( talk) 01:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
The within-wikipedia link for the "dispora", of Gaelic rites/practices, currently-links to SPECIFICALLY the Irish dispora, when Gaels, are not ONLY, Irish, in modern terms ;
see [1]. Replacing the only-irish one, with that one, might be a simple solution. 120.21.175.101 ( talk) 02:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:23, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The contents of the Ancestor worship page were merged into Veneration of the dead. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 August 2020 and 24 November 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Elijah.fisher.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 12:18, 17 January 2022 (UTC)
Why is the section on Native American practices written in the past tense? They're not dead. 2600:1700:7F0:C0D0:39AB:552D:B28E:D784 ( talk) 05:05, 12 November 2021 (UTC)
The link on the Hindu practice of Tarpan leads to an extinct horse, and even following the disambiguation from that page does not reveal any information on what Tarpan actually is. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.218.187 ( talk) 03:32, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
I'd like to see the pages combined under this title; as mentioned on Talk:Ancestor worship, "worship" is a fairly specific term which "veneration" broadens to other practices which don't fall under that particular lexicon. -- nae' blis 04:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I am anti-merge on this one. Although ancestor worship is part of veneration of the dead, ancestor worship is a big enough specialized topic to merit it's own page. For example, Saint Francis would fall under the general caregory of Saints or Christianity, but because there is enough independent information about ancestor worship, I think it should stay its own page. If I don't see more discussion on this in the coming month, I'm going to remove the merge tags. Avraham 01:59, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I would also prefer to keep the two topics separted, as "Ancestor Worship" usually relates to Confusian Chinese habits. In Chinese (and derived) cultures "Ancestor Worship" is already refined and specialized. In my opinion it is a topic on its own, as is also the major content of the article. I would suggest that the parts on "Ancestor Veneration in Poland", "Ancestor Veneration in America" and "Ancestor Veneration in Ireland" are moved to the article on "Veneration of the dead". In that article a reference to the "Ancestor Worship" in the Chinese Confusian sense could be provided.
I oppose merging. Ancestor Worship is, as User:IrishJew says, a topic that merits an article independent from the more general Veneration of the dead. I would ask my Chinese grandmother to contribute to this article, as she regularly worships her deceased parents-in-law on the Lunar New Year, birthdays, the regular New Year, and Christmas (go figure), but she's too old to master even a typewriter. Mang 06:38, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I am against merging, but I do think these categories should be completely rethought. "Veneration of the dead" is too weak and non-specific a term to encompass the various ancestor cults found throughout the world. Generally, the ancestors assume a sacred status and are thought actively to intervene in the affairs of the living--this anthropological phenomenon is broader than both "veneration" and "worship." Likewise, "veneration of the dead" is also not the correct term to describe the medieval "cult of the dead," in which the dead held an ambiguous status, stranded in purgatory; individuals were anxious to ensure that the living would remember to pray for them, while the living wanted to ensure that the dead made it safely through purgatory and did not return to haunt the living. "Worship of the ancestors" is also an outdated term. I think "ancestor cults" would be more appropriate and up-to-date. Thus I would propose "ancestor cults" as the general, global category, with the "cult of the dead" as a specific category for Christian Europe.
I've suggested that we merge the two articles. There was a discussion three years ago, but the articles have not moved on since then. My feeling is that if the articles were combined, the resulting article would be better and be easier to contribute to. VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 16:07, 3 July 2009 (UTC)
Right, now that these articles are merged, we need to organise the material better. (For those surprised at a merger, it was basically unopposed through lack of interest on either page, and supported on the WikiProject Religion page.)
There seems to be organisational tension between looking at religious teachings and at geographically based "traditional" teachings. Perhaps a split between the two, with religions being the dominant organising principle, and geographical variations and traditions explaining the messier stuff (such as syncretic practices) etc. which would be easier once a broad account of religious ideas has been set out.
Any opinions out there? VsevolodKrolikov ( talk) 14:59, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
What about Japan? Why ain't it here? Ancestor worship is still quite popular there, and lets no forget that the samurais historically worshiped their ancestors. 142.169.126.86 ( talk) 03:51, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I think a section should be added concerning ancient Israel, given the emphasis on "fathers" and genealogies in the Bible. The succession of legendary patriarchs such as Noah, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), Judah, etc. suggests a cult of ancestors. 86.40.136.121 ( talk) 05:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Recently I removed the self-published Urglaawe spam on this page. However, another user reverted me without an explanation. What gives? :bloodofox: ( talk) 14:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Veneration of the dead. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 22:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I would like this article to have more information about this idea in Islam and Arabic Cultures. I was redirected here from the Wahhabism page. Given the actions and ideas of both Saudi Arabia and the Islamic State in this domain, I think it's particularly relevant. I don't really know what would be good to add or good sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.9.56.252 ( talk) 15:08, 7 October 2015 (UTC)
There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Veneration which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 06:00, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
Is there any particular reason why Eastern Orthodoxy and in particular Saturday of the Souls has not been included ? Iconography and veneration of the dead in the Saturday of the Souls leading up to the Eastern Paschal celebration is a distinct cultural practice compared to Roman Catholic traditions. The great schism between the Eastern and Western church was in part due to tradition and religious practice entailing veneration of Saints through "written" icons, the dead in one's family, and Orthodox Christians who died deprived of certain religious rites.
The addition of a suitably written section to cover these sociocultural practices would greatly improve the scope and quality of the article. Dr.khatmando ( talk) 01:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC) Dr.khatmando ( talk) 01:53, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Veneration of the dead. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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This message was posted before February 2018.
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regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:22, 2 December 2017 (UTC)
I have a complaint. I was redirected to this page from "morthwyrtha" but that term appears nowhere on this page. What gives? Michaeld42 ( talk) 16:07, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
With a bit of searching, I found that "morthwyrtha" is defined in some dictionaries as "ancestor worship." On the other hand, Google Books finds the term used mainly by Edward Bulwar-Lytton in his novel "Harold" as a term for a particular person who worships the dead: "The Morthwyrtha, in her dark dress, stood within the circle of stones. ... In her right hand the Morthwyrtha held her seid staff, her feet were bare, and her loins girt by the Hunnish belt inscribed with mystic letters; from the belt hung a pouch, ..." but also as a term for a type of magical practice: "Hilda, who, despite all law and canon, was still believed to practise the dismal arts of the Wicca and Morthwyrtha (the witch and worshipper of the dead)." Both of these quotes from "Harold" by Bulwer-Lytton. I don't know how much of this is appropriate for this article, but I was keenly disappointed by not seeing any hint of reference to "Morthwyrtha" in this article after being redirected to it. Michaeld42 ( talk) 16:28, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
"In some Afro-diasporic cultures, ancestors are seen as being able to intercede on behalf of the living, often as messengers between humans and God."
NO QUOTE!
? the-divine? the gods? excuse me? Clarify/re-word please.
Truly indigenous (actually- )African, would not even believe IN, the carelessly left-ambiguous-but-flexible "God", that the line does not further-specify between - or at least most of them - the few cultures that've formed since (presumably) Judaism/Islam/Christianity's arrival, that have supposedly un-interfered-with choices to have, either or more than one of the 3 as a critical part of their culture, or, 'naturally' developed with it without any outside influence (practically impossible these days), would be the exception to the rule, but even then, considering that their culture would be only then partially African-originating, although one could say that the culture in Q IS African, it would STILL be mis-leading, to leave the two associated. 120.21.175.101 ( talk) 01:35, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
The within-wikipedia link for the "dispora", of Gaelic rites/practices, currently-links to SPECIFICALLY the Irish dispora, when Gaels, are not ONLY, Irish, in modern terms ;
see [1]. Replacing the only-irish one, with that one, might be a simple solution. 120.21.175.101 ( talk) 02:14, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:
You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 23:23, 8 March 2023 (UTC)