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This caught my attention: "Other sects, such as Sunnis and Wahhabists, abhor the practice."
When you follow link for Sunni Islam, nowhere does it says that it is a sect (like for Wahhabi movement or Shia Islam).
But on Shia wiki page there is notable effort to call both sides as a sects.
Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ensarija ( talk • contribs) 13:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Is a redirect in a search for "dulia" to "veneration" truthful? Given the definitions' of the two words being so dissimilar, the existence of a separate page seems fruitful and enlightening.
Dulia (Greek δουλεια) = bondage, slavery, servitude (e.g.
Romans 8:15, 21;
Galations 4:24; 5:1; etc.)
Veneration (Latin veneratio) = traditionally, respect or honor given to icons, physical or figurative
It is most clear, to equate the two is to hide knowledge. New Advent, among others, more correctly gives the Latin equivalent, " servitus," even if the denotation is subsequently ignored.
In short, I'd like to create a separate page for "dulia" if there are no reasonable objections or perhaps alternatives. Thanks for your time. CalebPM ( talk) 07:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
"Veneration" in academic literature often refers to religious reverence for some individual through various religious avenues (religious poetry or prose, storytelling, paintings, music, etc). For example, there is a monograph by Annemarie Schimmel titled, And Muhammad Is His Messenger: The Veneration of the Prophet in Islamic Piety. So the topic can have a much wider scope than just Christianity, even though the term veneration is often used in Christian writings to refer exclusively to the reverence of Christian Saints. -- Semaphoris ( talk) 18:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The comments indicating that Lutherans practice "veneration of saints" are incorrect. According to The Augsburg Confession, Article 21 "Lutherans keep the saints, not as saviors or intercessors to God, but rather as examples and inspirations to our own faith and life." [1] Additionally, in response to the question "To whom should we pray?" Martin Luther responds "We should pray to the true God only, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not to idols, saints, or anything God has created." [2] Happyday01 ( talk) 09:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that the article should be broken up into the different kinds of veneration. I know that catholic, orthodox, anglican, and lutheran veneration all differ. Lutheran Veneration probably needs to be explained better, because unlike Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox, Lutherans do not pray to saints, they do however celebrate their feast days, have a calender of saints, and believe the saints pray for them. I think this needs to be explained in the article. 74.167.245.190 ( talk) 20:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
References
The references sited are not accurate on timetable. Although the conception of Mary was celebrated in the East in the early christian period, the concept of immaculate conception by the Roman Catholic Church was not universal. It was allowed in 1806, and established as dogma in 1854. This is not a 'long' history as indicated.
The Assumption was not established until 1871. And these Roman dogmas are not accepted by most the other Christian religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.37.171.100 ( talk) 00:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The article lede currently gives a definition of saint that I'm not finding to be a widespread one in different religions and sects, at least in the neutral and academic reliable sources I'm searching. We currently define saint as ":an angel, or a person who has been identified as having a high degree of sanctity or holiness." I'm bringing it here because Elizium23 reverted my removal of "angel" from the definition of "saint." I also notice that the article body mentions "angel" only once, and even then, not to show that angel=saint. The lede "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article," so on that count alone it shouldn't be in the lede as the article currently stands (and in the first sentence yet!).
Is it possible that Elizium23, and whoever inserted "angel" in the lede previously is not trying to define them as the same thing, but wanting to show that angels are also venerated? If that's the case, then we could simply add a sentence after the first one saying, "Angles are also shown veneration in many religions."
By the way, here is how a neutral, very broad-based, academic reliable source introduces the concept of saints:
Historians of religion have liberated the category of sainthood from its narrower Christian associations and have employed the term in a more general way to refer to the state of special holiness that many religions attribute to certain people. The Jewish hasid or tsaddiq, the Muslim waliy, the Zoroastrian fravashi, the Hindu rsi or guru, the Buddhist arahant or bodhisattva, the Daoist shengren, the Shinto kami and others have all been referred to as saints.
The quote is from:
Additionally, our
Saint article mentions "angel" once, and only then to state that angels are not saints ("By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".)
First Light (
talk) 16:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a subcategory regarding Sikh veneration could be added on...? How about Baha'iveneration...?-- Splashen ( talk) 23:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. It's not even completely clear what the eventual move proposal was, let alone who !voted on what, but it's clear that there is no possibility of a consensus to move based on this muddled RM. So strongly suggest discuss informally on the various talk pages, starting with the several suggestions raised below to improve the articles, and raise another RM only if a considered direction emerges that needs a renaming. Andrewa ( talk) 02:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
– Wikipedia is not the Catholic Encyclopedia or any other Christian work, there 's no dab page, and if you're in this particular religion (Catholic/Orthodox), veneration can refer to Veneration of the dead instead, or other things. This should be replaced by a disambiguation page. -- 65.94.171.217 ( talk) 05:47, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.|multiple=yes
used in the {{
requested move}} in this section as it appears the suggestion is that only this article be renamed and that
Veneration of the dead be left unchanged? (2) Why is an article with non-Christian content being proposed for renaming to a title which is specific to Christianity?
YBG (
talk) 06:08, 16 October 2016 (UTC)The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 18:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Veneration →
Veneration of saints – For precision and natural disambiguation with
Veneration of the dead per
WP:PRECISION.
Rreagan007 (
talk) 22:52, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Scant mention through the entire article and no link whatsoever to the article on Miracle from here? Surely, the reason all these people are performing veneration deserves some mention (with a direct link) somewhere in the lead section. — LlywelynII 05:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This caught my attention: "Other sects, such as Sunnis and Wahhabists, abhor the practice."
When you follow link for Sunni Islam, nowhere does it says that it is a sect (like for Wahhabi movement or Shia Islam).
But on Shia wiki page there is notable effort to call both sides as a sects.
Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ensarija ( talk • contribs) 13:02, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Is a redirect in a search for "dulia" to "veneration" truthful? Given the definitions' of the two words being so dissimilar, the existence of a separate page seems fruitful and enlightening.
Dulia (Greek δουλεια) = bondage, slavery, servitude (e.g.
Romans 8:15, 21;
Galations 4:24; 5:1; etc.)
Veneration (Latin veneratio) = traditionally, respect or honor given to icons, physical or figurative
It is most clear, to equate the two is to hide knowledge. New Advent, among others, more correctly gives the Latin equivalent, " servitus," even if the denotation is subsequently ignored.
In short, I'd like to create a separate page for "dulia" if there are no reasonable objections or perhaps alternatives. Thanks for your time. CalebPM ( talk) 07:49, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
"Veneration" in academic literature often refers to religious reverence for some individual through various religious avenues (religious poetry or prose, storytelling, paintings, music, etc). For example, there is a monograph by Annemarie Schimmel titled, And Muhammad Is His Messenger: The Veneration of the Prophet in Islamic Piety. So the topic can have a much wider scope than just Christianity, even though the term veneration is often used in Christian writings to refer exclusively to the reverence of Christian Saints. -- Semaphoris ( talk) 18:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
The comments indicating that Lutherans practice "veneration of saints" are incorrect. According to The Augsburg Confession, Article 21 "Lutherans keep the saints, not as saviors or intercessors to God, but rather as examples and inspirations to our own faith and life." [1] Additionally, in response to the question "To whom should we pray?" Martin Luther responds "We should pray to the true God only, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, not to idols, saints, or anything God has created." [2] Happyday01 ( talk) 09:32, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that the article should be broken up into the different kinds of veneration. I know that catholic, orthodox, anglican, and lutheran veneration all differ. Lutheran Veneration probably needs to be explained better, because unlike Catholics, Anglicans, and Orthodox, Lutherans do not pray to saints, they do however celebrate their feast days, have a calender of saints, and believe the saints pray for them. I think this needs to be explained in the article. 74.167.245.190 ( talk) 20:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
References
The references sited are not accurate on timetable. Although the conception of Mary was celebrated in the East in the early christian period, the concept of immaculate conception by the Roman Catholic Church was not universal. It was allowed in 1806, and established as dogma in 1854. This is not a 'long' history as indicated.
The Assumption was not established until 1871. And these Roman dogmas are not accepted by most the other Christian religions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.37.171.100 ( talk) 00:34, 17 August 2011 (UTC)
The article lede currently gives a definition of saint that I'm not finding to be a widespread one in different religions and sects, at least in the neutral and academic reliable sources I'm searching. We currently define saint as ":an angel, or a person who has been identified as having a high degree of sanctity or holiness." I'm bringing it here because Elizium23 reverted my removal of "angel" from the definition of "saint." I also notice that the article body mentions "angel" only once, and even then, not to show that angel=saint. The lede "should briefly summarize the most important points covered in an article," so on that count alone it shouldn't be in the lede as the article currently stands (and in the first sentence yet!).
Is it possible that Elizium23, and whoever inserted "angel" in the lede previously is not trying to define them as the same thing, but wanting to show that angels are also venerated? If that's the case, then we could simply add a sentence after the first one saying, "Angles are also shown veneration in many religions."
By the way, here is how a neutral, very broad-based, academic reliable source introduces the concept of saints:
Historians of religion have liberated the category of sainthood from its narrower Christian associations and have employed the term in a more general way to refer to the state of special holiness that many religions attribute to certain people. The Jewish hasid or tsaddiq, the Muslim waliy, the Zoroastrian fravashi, the Hindu rsi or guru, the Buddhist arahant or bodhisattva, the Daoist shengren, the Shinto kami and others have all been referred to as saints.
The quote is from:
Additionally, our
Saint article mentions "angel" once, and only then to state that angels are not saints ("By this definition, Adam and Eve, Moses, the various prophets, except for the angels and archangels are all given the title of "Saint".)
First Light (
talk) 16:37, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Perhaps a subcategory regarding Sikh veneration could be added on...? How about Baha'iveneration...?-- Splashen ( talk) 23:15, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. It's not even completely clear what the eventual move proposal was, let alone who !voted on what, but it's clear that there is no possibility of a consensus to move based on this muddled RM. So strongly suggest discuss informally on the various talk pages, starting with the several suggestions raised below to improve the articles, and raise another RM only if a considered direction emerges that needs a renaming. Andrewa ( talk) 02:05, 24 October 2016 (UTC)
– Wikipedia is not the Catholic Encyclopedia or any other Christian work, there 's no dab page, and if you're in this particular religion (Catholic/Orthodox), veneration can refer to Veneration of the dead instead, or other things. This should be replaced by a disambiguation page. -- 65.94.171.217 ( talk) 05:47, 16 October 2016 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's policy on article titles.|multiple=yes
used in the {{
requested move}} in this section as it appears the suggestion is that only this article be renamed and that
Veneration of the dead be left unchanged? (2) Why is an article with non-Christian content being proposed for renaming to a title which is specific to Christianity?
YBG (
talk) 06:08, 16 October 2016 (UTC)The result of the move request was: no consensus to move the page at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasu よ! 18:50, 6 May 2018 (UTC)
Veneration →
Veneration of saints – For precision and natural disambiguation with
Veneration of the dead per
WP:PRECISION.
Rreagan007 (
talk) 22:52, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Scant mention through the entire article and no link whatsoever to the article on Miracle from here? Surely, the reason all these people are performing veneration deserves some mention (with a direct link) somewhere in the lead section. — LlywelynII 05:39, 13 May 2024 (UTC)