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A summary of this article appears in Motoring taxation in the United Kingdom. |
Could we have a section on annual tax revenue levels-- Russhayley ( talk) 09:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I've added a link to a calculator for UK VED. I'd better declare an interest and say I wrote the calculator, so feel free to remove the link if I've broken any rules on self-promotion. Adancy ( talk) 20:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reinstated content removed by these edits. I have retained the suggested change that the word 'incorrectly' should not be used in relation to the term 'road tax' as in Vehicle Excise Duty is commonly but incorrectly known as road tax as I agree that it is debatable if it is incorrect given that it is in the OED. I have reverted the rest of the edits on-mass given they were very extensive and to my mind removed some very notable and reliable information without justification. In particular:
I suggest that we discuss any further changes on the talk page here.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 15:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Context... This thread was created out of an issue raised in the 'road tax' thread and was moved here from the User talk:DeFacto#Splitting hairs by DeFacto.
The discussion focuses on the following phrase and if it is compliant with Wikipedia rules. I User:PeterEastern put it on DeFacto's talk page for two reasons. a) I had reverted the challenged text to DeFacto's preferred version so there is no issue to my knowledge in this article. b) this appeared to have more about the edit's interpretation of policy than Vehicle Excise Duty, and as such was more appropriate on his talk page, especially are I wished to draw attention to edits in other articles where the same arguement had been used by the editor, normally when removing 'anti-motoring' content. This is a continuation of a long conversation! PeterEastern ( talk) 06:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC) The text at issue - which has now been removed from the article - is as follows:
They - Some organisations, including cycling organisations - have drawn attention a prediction made by Winston Churchill that "It will be only a step from this for them to claim in a few years the moral ownership of the roads their contributions have created". [1] [2]
- ^ Plowden, William (1971). The Motor Car And Politics 1896–1970. London: The Bodley Head. p. 201. ISBN 0370003934.
{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|month=
( help)- ^ "The facts about road building". Cambridge for Better Transport.
Roads are paid for out of general taxation and council tax. Motorists originally paid a 'road fund license' which was ring-fenced to pay for road building and repair. However this was abolished in 1926, by then-Chancellor of the Exchequer Winston Churchill, who feared that the fund would lead to drivers feeling that they owned the road
DeFacto had removed the book reference and replaced it with a fact tag and the comment '... requested cite and replaced the Plowden cite with a request for a cite because it doesn't support the claim about drawing attention to Churchill's remark'. I replaced the book reference and added one for the claim that organisations were 'drawing attention to it'. I also resolved some other issues. I then started the thread which now follows:
-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterEastern ( talk • contribs) 2010-10-17T06:02:35
--- Start of question originally put on the DeFacto talk page.
You seem to be picking very small holes in a single article ( Vehicle Excise Duty) today. Could I very politely suggest that there are far better things for us to spend our time on? Please go and sort out Association of British Drivers if you want a challenge - it is had disputed and reference tags on it for over 2 years! PeterEastern ( talk) 20:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Please can we use this section to discuss the 'hair' which I believe you have 'split'. We may in the process resolve other issues - ie MKWeb, ActiveBradford and CamCycle - but let's not get distracted from the current issue. The disputed text - which has already been adjusted in the article - is quoted above. This issue at hand is whether the references support the text. In the earlier talk page section on the issue you said that the CBT reference was unacceptable because it was not a secondary source and because it was self-published. You now suggested that it was wp:or and wp:POV-pushing. I responded to the your concerns by saying that the use of a primary source was fine in the context. You then said it was a questionable source. I responded saying that I didn't think it was. You then changed the subject. If you agreed with me that CBT is a suitable primary source for the context then I suggest we are done with this section and can discuss any other issues you may have separately. PeterEastern ( talk) 06:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
We are currently debating if the BBC was 'incorrect' in saying that 'road tax as such does not exist'. The word is in bold in this quote:
The BBC broadcast a second piece which clarified the fact that roads are paid for out of general taxation and reported the incorrect [1] [2] assertion that 'road tax as such does not exist'. [3]
- ^ "Road tax increase 'will hit 9.4m'". BBC. 2008-07-10. Retrieved 2010-10-19.
- ^ "Road tax to reflect carbon emissions". Guardian News and Media. 2010-04-17. Retrieved 2010-10-19.
- ^ "BBC backtracks on 'road tax' report". BikeBiz. Retrieved 2010-10-13.
Look East revisits a report on cycling which contained viewer comments about "cyclists not paying road tax ...BBC Look East ran a news story about a Cambridge cyclist being knocked from his bike by an inattentive driver but did not mention any police action being taken. Instead, BBC TV reporter Kim Riley read out viewer comments which complained that cyclists "do not pay road tax".
The claim that the BBC was 'incorrect' is currently supported by two references, one to the the BBC the other to the Guardian. These demonstrate the term 'road tax' being used in place of VED. However, I don't thing the BBC was implying that the term 'road tax' did not exist, more that there is no specific tax that pays for the roads, not since 1937 anyway. As such any number of references to VED being called 'road tax' won't swing the argument. I suggest we avoid the term altogether and that it is removed from this sentence. Whatever the outcome I suggest that the references to support the use of the word are removed as being off topic.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 13:10, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
May I make the observation that although this article has the title 'Vehicle Excise Duty', most details provided in the content of the article (e.g. 'Charges', 'Rates since April 2005') seem to only relate to Motor-Car excise duty sub-classifications and strategy. ? Some of the other main vehicle classification types that aren't exempt ones would perhaps be worth a mention. AlphaMikeFoxtrot ( talk) 18:46, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
(Moved this discussion here from my talkpage) -- de Facto ( talk). 16:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Please don't revert without proving there is a tax called "road tax". There isn't as the name was abolished under Churchill, there is VED and a few others but none are actually called "road tax". Oh yes yes yes Jenova 20 15:57, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
It's [a] car tax, a tax on cars and other vehicles, not a tax on roads or a fee to use them.
Motorists do not pay directly for the roads. Roads are paid for via general and local taxation.
Winston Churchill started the process to abolish road tax. It was finally culled in 1937.
The ironically-named iPayRoadTax.com helps spread this message on cycle jerseys.
Car tax is based on amount of CO2 emitted so, if a fee had to be paid, cyclists would pay the same as 'tax-dodgers' such as disabled drivers, police officers, the Royal family, and band A motorists, ie £0.
Most cyclists are also car-owners, too, so pay VED.
This i 100% believe to be true, the government does not have a road tax, they have a vehicle tax and an emission tax, NOT a road tax.
Oxford dictionary is not a reliable source for this.
"Roads are paid for via general and local taxation." (and most adult cyclists pay "road" tax).
1) Neither general nor local taxes are hypothecated to the roads.
2) Very little of a local authority's budget is raised locally, most comes from the government.
3) Schoolchildren, impecunious students, car disliking lecturers and car hating cyclist fanatics certainly don't pay road tax.
4) Even if they did, the fact that I pay "road tax" doesn't mean I can ride my light, narrow, short, two-wheeled moped on the roads tax-free, so why should a slightly lighter and smaller cycle be exempt?
5) Motorists pay nearly £50 BILLION in Road RELATED Tax ON TOP of their ORDINARY citizens "general and local taxation" EACH and EVERY year.
6) This effectively pays for ALL road "related" expenditure (road "improvements" such as cycle paths and bus lanes, bus stop build outs, chicanes, pavement widenings, lane narrowings, advance cycle stop boxes, zoo-fulls of pedestrian crossings with ever longer green man and solid amber phases, traffic "calming", "safety" cameras, lowered limits, and even complete road closures!). All of rail "investment". All of the 50% subsidy on public transport. And STILL leaves a fortune to top up the treasury's "general and local taxation" coffers.
7) Anyone disputing that motorists pay for the roads with their Road RELATED Taxes has only to ask themselves this simple question:
If they succeeded in driving motorists out of their cars and onto buses or bikes, and so lost the near £50 BILLION pa in Road RELATED Taxes, would ANY government continue spending ANY money on the Roads (and Cycle Paths, and Bus Lanes, and Rail Roads):
And cut £50 BILLION pa off the NHS budget?!
Or would they scrap roadbuilding and "improvements", cut the Road maintenance budget, and try to maintain the NHS budget as best they could?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.215.3.144 ( talk) 20:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
(Moved this discussion here from my talk page) -- de Facto ( talk). 12:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
All i did was expand on the opening paragraphs a little, did you not like the new wording? Thanks Jenova 20 12:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
"A registered vehicle that is not being used on the road, and which has been taxed since 31 January 1998, must complete a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)." I didn't realize artificial intelligence had reached such a standard! 109.149.142.188 ( talk) 13:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
The article edit that included the info about the VED exemption change mentions (quite rightly) a "Finance 2014 Bill". Are there any other sources aside from the 2013 Budget that refer such a bill? The paragraph in the Budget document sounds more like a veiled "Vote for us and we promise to do XXXX next time" teaser to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's perhaps a little to early to speculate? Mongoosander ( talk) 18:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
The section titled "Other terms in common use" is still a clear and obvious case of POV-pushing. 176.249.26.217 ( talk) 14:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
We no longer have "tax discs" issued in the UK! 92.40.249.174 ( talk) 11:56, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
As a German, I've always found it a bit confusing when they talk about used car prices on TV shows like top gear "taxed & tested". Over here, when selling your car, you get a partial refund of your VED when you de-register it, and the buyer has to pay the VED for the remainder of the year. Don't you get such a refund in Britain, or didn't you use to get one say in 2004 when they did the famous 100-Pound car challenge on Top Gear? Did you really actually have to square it all with the buyer of your car? I'd be glad if somebody could clear that up.-- Cancun ( talk) 11:14, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
The article currently says £280 in first year then £620 for each subsequent year; I believe these figures are the wrong way around as can be seen from the table above. The errors seems to be carried through to the 10-year totals calculated in the next sentence; the current system would result in £3,140 rather than £5,860. And under the new system, wouldn't the normal Year-1 rate (£1,200) also be increased by the £310 to £1,510, giving a 10-yr total of £4,010? In addition, it might be worth mentioning in the example that this vehicle falls above the £40k limit in case any reader is not familiar with Range Rover prices [I didn't go ahead and make the changes myself as a) I wasn't sure about how the £40k supplement works and didn't have time to check it, and b) this is my first ever Wikipedia edit so thought I'd practice on a Talk page. Apologies if I've missed anything.] JA 1961 ( talk) 17:05, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Vehicle Excise Duty/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
==Class== Start class because it contains a lot of material on UK. Needs to be globalized with more material on the US and Spain, at least since they are referred to in the introduction. EECavazos 04:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
Substituted at 18:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
I added "internal combustion vehicles" to separate out the fact that bicycles (which are vehicles under law) and electric vehicles, don't pay VED. Sanbear ( talk) 23:17, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
As this was reverted, I changed to "vehicles which emit carbon dioxide" with the appropriate citation. I think that "internal combustion vehicles" is more succinct, but @ DeFacto: had reverted. If they read this, I'd like to know (seriously, I would!) like to know what other vehicles other than internal combustion are liable for VED. Sanbear ( talk) 16:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
DeFacto, I see you've been pushing the whole 'it's a road tax' thing for going on ten years now. The talk page is very ambivalent about it. My edit was properly sourced though from the BBC, which is a quality source. Road tax is not a proper term for VED. If you can find a source that shows that VED is still legally known as Road Tax, that would be great (and every black cab driver in London would buy you a pint).
Sanbear (
talk)
00:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Sanbear, you asked for a source that it 'is not an error to call it "road tax"'. How about the OED? It defines "road tax" [3] as "A periodic tax payable on motor vehicles using public roads." Will that do, or do you think the principal authority on the English language is providing an erroneous definition? -- DeFacto ( talk). 09:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
DeFacto forgive the late response. I see you are very invested in this. The fact remains though, that the DVLA bills for Vehicle Excise Duty, not 'road tax'. In the same manner that we are billed Council Tax, not 'property' tax, though you pay it when you reside in a property. The BBC is generally recognised as a reliable source. You've also been pushing against users for ten years, using the OED. The OED also spells colour with a u, while the article in wikipedia is without a u. The fact that many people incorrectly refer to VED as 'Road Tax' is a huge problem in the UK, making it hard to get proper traffic infrastructure for non-motorists. We can start by clarifying facts right here in this article. Road tax per se doesn't exist. It's a vehicle excise duty. Sanbear ( talk) 12:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
a mix of a property tax and a personal tax. Would you deny that Hydrocarbon Oil Duty is a fuel tax? Its article describes it as
Hydrocarbon Oil Duty (also fuel duty and fuel tax) is a fuel tax. Commonly used terms are not "erroneous", especially when they are literal synonyms.
DeFacto. I'm not debating that people don't call Vehicle Excise Duty 'road tax'. I'm saying, they are wrong, thus, they are saying it "erroneously". This isn't my opinion. It's a well referenced fact that road tax doesn't exist, and that to call Vehicle Excise Duty 'road tax' is a misnomer. Sanbear ( talk) 16:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I've started a new topic below to discuss adding a section to cover the use of the term. -- DeFacto ( talk). 07:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Further to the discussion in #Vehicles section above, and as I thought, the discussion over the use of the term 'road tax' used to be covered in a section in the article. Trawling back through the history I found that it was deleted on 4 February 2016. Given that the confusion over the use of this term is still an occasional catalyst for disruption to the article, I wondered if it is time to restore that section, with updates as necessary. I'll reproduce the old section here in a collapsed box for reference.
The section from the article prior to 4 February 2016
|
---|
The term "road tax" in common use The term " road tax", which appears in the Oxford English Dictionary, is commonly used when referring to "Vehicle Excise Duty". [2] Despite its common usage though, this use is controversial, particularly among cycling activists. Such activists argue that, because many motorists wrongly believe that the proceeds from VED are used to fund the roads and even that the roads are funded solely from this tax, that technically there is no such thing as road tax. Peter Walker, a journalist at The Guardian gives this opinion of it "I've always felt the road tax argument supports a more general feeling of entitlement among too many drivers. Those who trot it out often seem to genuinely treat cyclists like we're interlopers who should be pushed aside". [3] In an opinion piece on the BBC Magazine website, a journalist explored this argument in 2013, suggesting how the term "road tax" is used by some drivers as a badge of entitlement to hog the road and drive badly, even intentionally hitting cyclists to argue their point. [4] The Cyclists' Touring Club explain that all tax payers, not just motorists, pay proportionately for the roads, and that cyclists impose minimal wear and tear on them. [5] A single issue campaign, 'I pay road tax', was started by a cycling journalist in 2009 to challenge the use of the term 'road tax'. [6] [7] The campaign has received support from Edmund King, President of The AA. [8] In a BBC report on Look East in May 2010 about a cyclist who was knocked off his bike by a car the presenter read out a series of emails from viewers expressing the view that 'cyclists should pay road tax' if they wish to use the roads. After receiving a 'huge number' of complaints from viewers following publicity created by iPayRoadTax, the BBC broadcast a second piece which clarified the fact that roads are paid for out of general taxation. [9] The term "road tax" is often incorrectly used when referring to "vehicle excise duty" in the UK media. [10] [11] When challenged by iPayRoadTax, Which?, the British consumer magazine, defended its continued use of the term on the basis that "road tax" was more commonly used than Vehicle Excise Duty. A spokesman also said that while they would not stop using the terms 'car tax' and 'road tax' online that they would endeavour to also make appropriate reference to the full name of the tax. [12] One organisation that appears to be content with the current use of 'road tax' as the vernacular for VED is the Advertising Standards Authority. Complaints that advertisements using the term are incorrect are rejected with what appears to be a templated letter stating "although we acknowledge that the correct term is 'Vehicle Excise Duty', more commonly used phrases such as 'Road Tax' are often used by advertisers to convey a message in a way that will be understood by the widest audience." [13] References
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Pinging Sanbear and Cnbrb as contributors to the discussion on this since that section was removed. Any thoughts about re-adding that, or something similar? -- DeFacto ( talk). 07:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I dispute the description of the use of term "road tax" as being "erroneous". So, to continue on from the discussion in #Vehicles and #Shall we restore the old 'road tax' terminology section? sections above...
Sanbear, in
Hansard I just found where the chancellor explains the 1937 change that is often misrepresented as being the abolition of road tax. On 20 April 1937,
Chamberlain says in his financial statement to the commons:
[6] ... the decision last year to abolish the system of earmarking Motor Vehicle Duties to the Road Fund...
Thus confirming the continuity of what he referred to as "Motor Vehicle Duties", with the only change being that the revenues would no longer be earmarked for the
Road Fund. The best we can say is that from 1937 the term "Road Fund Licence" became a misnomer as the duty paid for the licence from that date was no longer credited directly into the Road Fund. No duty/tax was abolished. --
DeFacto (
talk).
10:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
DeFacto, This is still in the Magna Carta: "Heirs may be given in marriage, but not to someone of lower social standing." It's obviously not still valid. Just because something was a law previously, or was or wasn't mentioned in the Hansard in 1937 doesn't make it true now. Here's a statement from the official DVLA account regarding VED: https://twitter.com/DVLAgovuk/status/1012311112103194624 . The statement is : " I can confirm that it is vehicle tax and not road tax. The revenue from individual taxes is not generally devoted to specific items of expenditure. There has been no direct relationship between motoring taxation and road expenditure since 1937." [1]. It's very hard to argue with your belief, when the facts are, that VED is erroneously called road tax, since you don't have to pay it to operate on the road. You only have to pay it if you take a polluting vehicle on a public highway, hence Vehicle Excise Duty. Notably, bicycles, which are legally considered vehicles, don't have to even register for VED. Similarly, electric cars, while they have to register for VED are not liable for VED and pay no VED to use public highways. Also, highly pollution cars don't have to pay VED if they are only used off of public highways/roads Sanbear ( talk) 09:10, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Reverted because there was no consensus to remove either. It is in fact not a 'road tax.' Many vehicles that use the road legally do not have to pay it. It's a tax on emissions. This needs to be clarified. 2A02:C7F:F042:B400:4D36:1E06:C0DA:724B ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Defacto, it is not officially called "Road Tax". The Scotsman, as is often done, erroneously called it "Road Tax". It's not "Road Tax" it's VED.
The government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland refers to it as "VED." Tax disc is also of course anachronistic and erroneous, as there is no such thing as a tax disc either anymore. It is incorrect to refer to VED as a "Road Tax" as it's not a tax to be on the road, it's a tax to put a polluting vehicle on a public highway. If "Road Tax" existed, then all road users would be required to pay it, including pedestrians and horse riders.
Sanbear (
talk)
11:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
A duty of excise (“vehicle excise duty”) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle'. In other words: it is a road-use tax for mechanically propelled vehicles - i.e. both a "road tax" and a "[motor] vehicle tax", as is correctly noted in the article.
Reverted given the lack of consensus to keep. -- DeFacto ( talk). 23:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)
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A summary of this article appears in Motoring taxation in the United Kingdom. |
Could we have a section on annual tax revenue levels-- Russhayley ( talk) 09:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)
I've added a link to a calculator for UK VED. I'd better declare an interest and say I wrote the calculator, so feel free to remove the link if I've broken any rules on self-promotion. Adancy ( talk) 20:33, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
I have reinstated content removed by these edits. I have retained the suggested change that the word 'incorrectly' should not be used in relation to the term 'road tax' as in Vehicle Excise Duty is commonly but incorrectly known as road tax as I agree that it is debatable if it is incorrect given that it is in the OED. I have reverted the rest of the edits on-mass given they were very extensive and to my mind removed some very notable and reliable information without justification. In particular:
I suggest that we discuss any further changes on the talk page here.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 15:32, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Context... This thread was created out of an issue raised in the 'road tax' thread and was moved here from the User talk:DeFacto#Splitting hairs by DeFacto.
The discussion focuses on the following phrase and if it is compliant with Wikipedia rules. I User:PeterEastern put it on DeFacto's talk page for two reasons. a) I had reverted the challenged text to DeFacto's preferred version so there is no issue to my knowledge in this article. b) this appeared to have more about the edit's interpretation of policy than Vehicle Excise Duty, and as such was more appropriate on his talk page, especially are I wished to draw attention to edits in other articles where the same arguement had been used by the editor, normally when removing 'anti-motoring' content. This is a continuation of a long conversation! PeterEastern ( talk) 06:02, 17 October 2010 (UTC) The text at issue - which has now been removed from the article - is as follows:
They - Some organisations, including cycling organisations - have drawn attention a prediction made by Winston Churchill that "It will be only a step from this for them to claim in a few years the moral ownership of the roads their contributions have created". [1] [2]
- ^ Plowden, William (1971). The Motor Car And Politics 1896–1970. London: The Bodley Head. p. 201. ISBN 0370003934.
{{ cite book}}
: Cite has empty unknown parameter:|month=
( help)- ^ "The facts about road building". Cambridge for Better Transport.
Roads are paid for out of general taxation and council tax. Motorists originally paid a 'road fund license' which was ring-fenced to pay for road building and repair. However this was abolished in 1926, by then-Chancellor of the Exchequer Winston Churchill, who feared that the fund would lead to drivers feeling that they owned the road
DeFacto had removed the book reference and replaced it with a fact tag and the comment '... requested cite and replaced the Plowden cite with a request for a cite because it doesn't support the claim about drawing attention to Churchill's remark'. I replaced the book reference and added one for the claim that organisations were 'drawing attention to it'. I also resolved some other issues. I then started the thread which now follows:
-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by PeterEastern ( talk • contribs) 2010-10-17T06:02:35
--- Start of question originally put on the DeFacto talk page.
You seem to be picking very small holes in a single article ( Vehicle Excise Duty) today. Could I very politely suggest that there are far better things for us to spend our time on? Please go and sort out Association of British Drivers if you want a challenge - it is had disputed and reference tags on it for over 2 years! PeterEastern ( talk) 20:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
Please can we use this section to discuss the 'hair' which I believe you have 'split'. We may in the process resolve other issues - ie MKWeb, ActiveBradford and CamCycle - but let's not get distracted from the current issue. The disputed text - which has already been adjusted in the article - is quoted above. This issue at hand is whether the references support the text. In the earlier talk page section on the issue you said that the CBT reference was unacceptable because it was not a secondary source and because it was self-published. You now suggested that it was wp:or and wp:POV-pushing. I responded to the your concerns by saying that the use of a primary source was fine in the context. You then said it was a questionable source. I responded saying that I didn't think it was. You then changed the subject. If you agreed with me that CBT is a suitable primary source for the context then I suggest we are done with this section and can discuss any other issues you may have separately. PeterEastern ( talk) 06:21, 17 October 2010 (UTC)
We are currently debating if the BBC was 'incorrect' in saying that 'road tax as such does not exist'. The word is in bold in this quote:
The BBC broadcast a second piece which clarified the fact that roads are paid for out of general taxation and reported the incorrect [1] [2] assertion that 'road tax as such does not exist'. [3]
- ^ "Road tax increase 'will hit 9.4m'". BBC. 2008-07-10. Retrieved 2010-10-19.
- ^ "Road tax to reflect carbon emissions". Guardian News and Media. 2010-04-17. Retrieved 2010-10-19.
- ^ "BBC backtracks on 'road tax' report". BikeBiz. Retrieved 2010-10-13.
Look East revisits a report on cycling which contained viewer comments about "cyclists not paying road tax ...BBC Look East ran a news story about a Cambridge cyclist being knocked from his bike by an inattentive driver but did not mention any police action being taken. Instead, BBC TV reporter Kim Riley read out viewer comments which complained that cyclists "do not pay road tax".
The claim that the BBC was 'incorrect' is currently supported by two references, one to the the BBC the other to the Guardian. These demonstrate the term 'road tax' being used in place of VED. However, I don't thing the BBC was implying that the term 'road tax' did not exist, more that there is no specific tax that pays for the roads, not since 1937 anyway. As such any number of references to VED being called 'road tax' won't swing the argument. I suggest we avoid the term altogether and that it is removed from this sentence. Whatever the outcome I suggest that the references to support the use of the word are removed as being off topic.
-- PeterEastern ( talk) 13:10, 20 October 2010 (UTC)
May I make the observation that although this article has the title 'Vehicle Excise Duty', most details provided in the content of the article (e.g. 'Charges', 'Rates since April 2005') seem to only relate to Motor-Car excise duty sub-classifications and strategy. ? Some of the other main vehicle classification types that aren't exempt ones would perhaps be worth a mention. AlphaMikeFoxtrot ( talk) 18:46, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
(Moved this discussion here from my talkpage) -- de Facto ( talk). 16:05, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
Please don't revert without proving there is a tax called "road tax". There isn't as the name was abolished under Churchill, there is VED and a few others but none are actually called "road tax". Oh yes yes yes Jenova 20 15:57, 14 July 2011 (UTC)
It's [a] car tax, a tax on cars and other vehicles, not a tax on roads or a fee to use them.
Motorists do not pay directly for the roads. Roads are paid for via general and local taxation.
Winston Churchill started the process to abolish road tax. It was finally culled in 1937.
The ironically-named iPayRoadTax.com helps spread this message on cycle jerseys.
Car tax is based on amount of CO2 emitted so, if a fee had to be paid, cyclists would pay the same as 'tax-dodgers' such as disabled drivers, police officers, the Royal family, and band A motorists, ie £0.
Most cyclists are also car-owners, too, so pay VED.
This i 100% believe to be true, the government does not have a road tax, they have a vehicle tax and an emission tax, NOT a road tax.
Oxford dictionary is not a reliable source for this.
"Roads are paid for via general and local taxation." (and most adult cyclists pay "road" tax).
1) Neither general nor local taxes are hypothecated to the roads.
2) Very little of a local authority's budget is raised locally, most comes from the government.
3) Schoolchildren, impecunious students, car disliking lecturers and car hating cyclist fanatics certainly don't pay road tax.
4) Even if they did, the fact that I pay "road tax" doesn't mean I can ride my light, narrow, short, two-wheeled moped on the roads tax-free, so why should a slightly lighter and smaller cycle be exempt?
5) Motorists pay nearly £50 BILLION in Road RELATED Tax ON TOP of their ORDINARY citizens "general and local taxation" EACH and EVERY year.
6) This effectively pays for ALL road "related" expenditure (road "improvements" such as cycle paths and bus lanes, bus stop build outs, chicanes, pavement widenings, lane narrowings, advance cycle stop boxes, zoo-fulls of pedestrian crossings with ever longer green man and solid amber phases, traffic "calming", "safety" cameras, lowered limits, and even complete road closures!). All of rail "investment". All of the 50% subsidy on public transport. And STILL leaves a fortune to top up the treasury's "general and local taxation" coffers.
7) Anyone disputing that motorists pay for the roads with their Road RELATED Taxes has only to ask themselves this simple question:
If they succeeded in driving motorists out of their cars and onto buses or bikes, and so lost the near £50 BILLION pa in Road RELATED Taxes, would ANY government continue spending ANY money on the Roads (and Cycle Paths, and Bus Lanes, and Rail Roads):
And cut £50 BILLION pa off the NHS budget?!
Or would they scrap roadbuilding and "improvements", cut the Road maintenance budget, and try to maintain the NHS budget as best they could?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.215.3.144 ( talk) 20:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
(Moved this discussion here from my talk page) -- de Facto ( talk). 12:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
All i did was expand on the opening paragraphs a little, did you not like the new wording? Thanks Jenova 20 12:23, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
"A registered vehicle that is not being used on the road, and which has been taxed since 31 January 1998, must complete a Statutory Off Road Notification (SORN)." I didn't realize artificial intelligence had reached such a standard! 109.149.142.188 ( talk) 13:16, 11 November 2011 (UTC)
The article edit that included the info about the VED exemption change mentions (quite rightly) a "Finance 2014 Bill". Are there any other sources aside from the 2013 Budget that refer such a bill? The paragraph in the Budget document sounds more like a veiled "Vote for us and we promise to do XXXX next time" teaser to me. I'm not saying it's wrong, just that it's perhaps a little to early to speculate? Mongoosander ( talk) 18:58, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
The section titled "Other terms in common use" is still a clear and obvious case of POV-pushing. 176.249.26.217 ( talk) 14:47, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
We no longer have "tax discs" issued in the UK! 92.40.249.174 ( talk) 11:56, 27 October 2014 (UTC)
As a German, I've always found it a bit confusing when they talk about used car prices on TV shows like top gear "taxed & tested". Over here, when selling your car, you get a partial refund of your VED when you de-register it, and the buyer has to pay the VED for the remainder of the year. Don't you get such a refund in Britain, or didn't you use to get one say in 2004 when they did the famous 100-Pound car challenge on Top Gear? Did you really actually have to square it all with the buyer of your car? I'd be glad if somebody could clear that up.-- Cancun ( talk) 11:14, 3 January 2016 (UTC)
The article currently says £280 in first year then £620 for each subsequent year; I believe these figures are the wrong way around as can be seen from the table above. The errors seems to be carried through to the 10-year totals calculated in the next sentence; the current system would result in £3,140 rather than £5,860. And under the new system, wouldn't the normal Year-1 rate (£1,200) also be increased by the £310 to £1,510, giving a 10-yr total of £4,010? In addition, it might be worth mentioning in the example that this vehicle falls above the £40k limit in case any reader is not familiar with Range Rover prices [I didn't go ahead and make the changes myself as a) I wasn't sure about how the £40k supplement works and didn't have time to check it, and b) this is my first ever Wikipedia edit so thought I'd practice on a Talk page. Apologies if I've missed anything.] JA 1961 ( talk) 17:05, 17 March 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Vehicle Excise Duty/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
==Class== Start class because it contains a lot of material on UK. Needs to be globalized with more material on the US and Spain, at least since they are referred to in the introduction. EECavazos 04:57, 30 October 2007 (UTC) |
Substituted at 18:43, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
I added "internal combustion vehicles" to separate out the fact that bicycles (which are vehicles under law) and electric vehicles, don't pay VED. Sanbear ( talk) 23:17, 11 February 2021 (UTC)
As this was reverted, I changed to "vehicles which emit carbon dioxide" with the appropriate citation. I think that "internal combustion vehicles" is more succinct, but @ DeFacto: had reverted. If they read this, I'd like to know (seriously, I would!) like to know what other vehicles other than internal combustion are liable for VED. Sanbear ( talk) 16:58, 12 February 2021 (UTC)
DeFacto, I see you've been pushing the whole 'it's a road tax' thing for going on ten years now. The talk page is very ambivalent about it. My edit was properly sourced though from the BBC, which is a quality source. Road tax is not a proper term for VED. If you can find a source that shows that VED is still legally known as Road Tax, that would be great (and every black cab driver in London would buy you a pint).
Sanbear (
talk)
00:30, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
Sanbear, you asked for a source that it 'is not an error to call it "road tax"'. How about the OED? It defines "road tax" [3] as "A periodic tax payable on motor vehicles using public roads." Will that do, or do you think the principal authority on the English language is providing an erroneous definition? -- DeFacto ( talk). 09:15, 15 February 2021 (UTC)
DeFacto forgive the late response. I see you are very invested in this. The fact remains though, that the DVLA bills for Vehicle Excise Duty, not 'road tax'. In the same manner that we are billed Council Tax, not 'property' tax, though you pay it when you reside in a property. The BBC is generally recognised as a reliable source. You've also been pushing against users for ten years, using the OED. The OED also spells colour with a u, while the article in wikipedia is without a u. The fact that many people incorrectly refer to VED as 'Road Tax' is a huge problem in the UK, making it hard to get proper traffic infrastructure for non-motorists. We can start by clarifying facts right here in this article. Road tax per se doesn't exist. It's a vehicle excise duty. Sanbear ( talk) 12:08, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
a mix of a property tax and a personal tax. Would you deny that Hydrocarbon Oil Duty is a fuel tax? Its article describes it as
Hydrocarbon Oil Duty (also fuel duty and fuel tax) is a fuel tax. Commonly used terms are not "erroneous", especially when they are literal synonyms.
DeFacto. I'm not debating that people don't call Vehicle Excise Duty 'road tax'. I'm saying, they are wrong, thus, they are saying it "erroneously". This isn't my opinion. It's a well referenced fact that road tax doesn't exist, and that to call Vehicle Excise Duty 'road tax' is a misnomer. Sanbear ( talk) 16:28, 17 February 2021 (UTC)
I've started a new topic below to discuss adding a section to cover the use of the term. -- DeFacto ( talk). 07:13, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
Further to the discussion in #Vehicles section above, and as I thought, the discussion over the use of the term 'road tax' used to be covered in a section in the article. Trawling back through the history I found that it was deleted on 4 February 2016. Given that the confusion over the use of this term is still an occasional catalyst for disruption to the article, I wondered if it is time to restore that section, with updates as necessary. I'll reproduce the old section here in a collapsed box for reference.
The section from the article prior to 4 February 2016
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The term "road tax" in common use The term " road tax", which appears in the Oxford English Dictionary, is commonly used when referring to "Vehicle Excise Duty". [2] Despite its common usage though, this use is controversial, particularly among cycling activists. Such activists argue that, because many motorists wrongly believe that the proceeds from VED are used to fund the roads and even that the roads are funded solely from this tax, that technically there is no such thing as road tax. Peter Walker, a journalist at The Guardian gives this opinion of it "I've always felt the road tax argument supports a more general feeling of entitlement among too many drivers. Those who trot it out often seem to genuinely treat cyclists like we're interlopers who should be pushed aside". [3] In an opinion piece on the BBC Magazine website, a journalist explored this argument in 2013, suggesting how the term "road tax" is used by some drivers as a badge of entitlement to hog the road and drive badly, even intentionally hitting cyclists to argue their point. [4] The Cyclists' Touring Club explain that all tax payers, not just motorists, pay proportionately for the roads, and that cyclists impose minimal wear and tear on them. [5] A single issue campaign, 'I pay road tax', was started by a cycling journalist in 2009 to challenge the use of the term 'road tax'. [6] [7] The campaign has received support from Edmund King, President of The AA. [8] In a BBC report on Look East in May 2010 about a cyclist who was knocked off his bike by a car the presenter read out a series of emails from viewers expressing the view that 'cyclists should pay road tax' if they wish to use the roads. After receiving a 'huge number' of complaints from viewers following publicity created by iPayRoadTax, the BBC broadcast a second piece which clarified the fact that roads are paid for out of general taxation. [9] The term "road tax" is often incorrectly used when referring to "vehicle excise duty" in the UK media. [10] [11] When challenged by iPayRoadTax, Which?, the British consumer magazine, defended its continued use of the term on the basis that "road tax" was more commonly used than Vehicle Excise Duty. A spokesman also said that while they would not stop using the terms 'car tax' and 'road tax' online that they would endeavour to also make appropriate reference to the full name of the tax. [12] One organisation that appears to be content with the current use of 'road tax' as the vernacular for VED is the Advertising Standards Authority. Complaints that advertisements using the term are incorrect are rejected with what appears to be a templated letter stating "although we acknowledge that the correct term is 'Vehicle Excise Duty', more commonly used phrases such as 'Road Tax' are often used by advertisers to convey a message in a way that will be understood by the widest audience." [13] References
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Pinging Sanbear and Cnbrb as contributors to the discussion on this since that section was removed. Any thoughts about re-adding that, or something similar? -- DeFacto ( talk). 07:11, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
I dispute the description of the use of term "road tax" as being "erroneous". So, to continue on from the discussion in #Vehicles and #Shall we restore the old 'road tax' terminology section? sections above...
Sanbear, in
Hansard I just found where the chancellor explains the 1937 change that is often misrepresented as being the abolition of road tax. On 20 April 1937,
Chamberlain says in his financial statement to the commons:
[6] ... the decision last year to abolish the system of earmarking Motor Vehicle Duties to the Road Fund...
Thus confirming the continuity of what he referred to as "Motor Vehicle Duties", with the only change being that the revenues would no longer be earmarked for the
Road Fund. The best we can say is that from 1937 the term "Road Fund Licence" became a misnomer as the duty paid for the licence from that date was no longer credited directly into the Road Fund. No duty/tax was abolished. --
DeFacto (
talk).
10:57, 24 February 2021 (UTC)
DeFacto, This is still in the Magna Carta: "Heirs may be given in marriage, but not to someone of lower social standing." It's obviously not still valid. Just because something was a law previously, or was or wasn't mentioned in the Hansard in 1937 doesn't make it true now. Here's a statement from the official DVLA account regarding VED: https://twitter.com/DVLAgovuk/status/1012311112103194624 . The statement is : " I can confirm that it is vehicle tax and not road tax. The revenue from individual taxes is not generally devoted to specific items of expenditure. There has been no direct relationship between motoring taxation and road expenditure since 1937." [1]. It's very hard to argue with your belief, when the facts are, that VED is erroneously called road tax, since you don't have to pay it to operate on the road. You only have to pay it if you take a polluting vehicle on a public highway, hence Vehicle Excise Duty. Notably, bicycles, which are legally considered vehicles, don't have to even register for VED. Similarly, electric cars, while they have to register for VED are not liable for VED and pay no VED to use public highways. Also, highly pollution cars don't have to pay VED if they are only used off of public highways/roads Sanbear ( talk) 09:10, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
Reverted because there was no consensus to remove either. It is in fact not a 'road tax.' Many vehicles that use the road legally do not have to pay it. It's a tax on emissions. This needs to be clarified. 2A02:C7F:F042:B400:4D36:1E06:C0DA:724B ( talk) — Preceding undated comment added 07:57, 13 November 2021 (UTC)
Defacto, it is not officially called "Road Tax". The Scotsman, as is often done, erroneously called it "Road Tax". It's not "Road Tax" it's VED.
The government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland refers to it as "VED." Tax disc is also of course anachronistic and erroneous, as there is no such thing as a tax disc either anymore. It is incorrect to refer to VED as a "Road Tax" as it's not a tax to be on the road, it's a tax to put a polluting vehicle on a public highway. If "Road Tax" existed, then all road users would be required to pay it, including pedestrians and horse riders.
Sanbear (
talk)
11:04, 8 April 2021 (UTC)
A duty of excise (“vehicle excise duty”) shall be charged in respect of every mechanically propelled vehicle which is used, or kept, on a public road in the United Kingdom and shall be paid on a licence to be taken out by the person keeping the vehicle'. In other words: it is a road-use tax for mechanically propelled vehicles - i.e. both a "road tax" and a "[motor] vehicle tax", as is correctly noted in the article.
Reverted given the lack of consensus to keep. -- DeFacto ( talk). 23:14, 6 November 2021 (UTC)