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The reason I found it necessary to edit the article to replace "dietary vegan" with "total vegetarians, strict vegetarians, or pure vegetarians" is that veganism is about a whole philosophy of life, not just a diet. Diet just happens to be an important aspect of this way of life. Calling a pure vegetarian a "dietary vegan" makes about as much sense as calling somebody that eats kosher foods a "dietary Jew." -Random Violin Guy 23:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a big difference between calling yourself vegan, and actually being vegan. Joanne Stepaniak wrote a good essay on the name game: http://www.vegsource.com/jo/essays/namegame.htm . I still think the best way to get around all this labeling and reverting is to take that part out, and replace it with a description of the diet, rather than a name for it. These terms are too muddy for us to authoritatively use one or the other. -RandomViolinGuy 20:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Some sources, such as airlines, treat vegan/strict vegetarian/pure vegetarian as one of the same. This should be noted on this article [1]. nirvana2013 19:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The "possible limitations" that I had in place will either stay, or the studies will be removed. It's obvious that throwing in two studies by the same group of German researchers, on less than 100 participants (in the case of the first study, less than 30), with no mention of duration (and no mention of "vegan" in the second study) serves no purpose but to baselessly attack veganism. Find some peer-reviewed studies that can't be so easily criticized, allow the limitations to be added in, or remove the studies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kyle key ( talk • contribs) 16:31, August 6, 2006.
Luke, Homocysteine levels are inversely-related to B12. People with low blood B12 have elevated homocysteine levels, so effectively both are manifestations of the same problem, which is insufficient intake and/or absorption of dietary B12.
I have updated the entry about the study by Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin. I have tried to make it fair and neutral in tone, as I believe that their conclusion that meat is unhealthy, with regards to the diseases they cite, is based upon the studies they have included and should be in the article as their opinion as well as a generally accepted view. I think the entry is now more specific and conforms to NPOV. I would like to gain a consensus if User:Rotten still feels the entry should be reverted.
For details please see page 15 of Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin's paper: "Meat-Eaters Aiding Global Warming?: New Research Suggests What You Eat as Important as What You Drive" - Solar 17:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Damn you hippies! Hempeater 03:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
A while back I tried unsuccessfully to defend the addition of a couple of external links that I thought were high quality and relevant. Since there are editors here who are super-strict about external links, can I call upon such editors to help me trim the massive list of external links in the Animal rights article? I have tried many times to trim that huge list of links to animal rights orgs. to a reasonable number, but SlimVirgin insists on keeping them all in, even though there exists an entire separate article devoted to that topic: List of animal rights groups. Thanks, - MichaelBluejay 14:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thie length of the article has now exceeded 51 kb so it should be tageed as very long.-- Lucy-marie 23:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The tag needs to be clearly visible to all ediors, so that editors know the article may be getting out of control in length and requie pruning in certian areas. Adding the tag conforms to the MOS on article length.-- Lucy-marie 12:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Many people here and on google, say it is also a diet. The first sentence should change and include a dietary definition as well. -- fs 22:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
the problem is without any conclusion on that matter on the talk page the sentence remains and it was reverted to its previous state after I changed it to a "either a philosophy+diet etc. or a diet". --
fs
17:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Obtuse quote taken from criticism: Many health supplements (vitamins, minerals, herbal alternatives, etc.) are placed inside capsules made of animal-based gelatin [1] [2]. Though online retailers have emerged selling vegan alternatives to such products, and vegan-friendly multivitamins and supplements can now be found in most health food stores, it is legally available only in the developed world.
Huh? What is only available in the developed world? Can someone who understands this sentence rejig it a bit? Cheers! Mujinga 20:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The difficulty section is not written well. I'm making it a Discussion section of it's own. ilsott
This article is good and overlong. I would suggest:
1 Moving more nutritional info to the vegan nutrition page
2 Sorting out the introduction, which is a bit unwieldy at present .. i would suggest moving the stats about us and uk vegans to its own section
I am happy to help with these changes, but I thought I would broach the subject here as I dont recall making any edits on this page before today .. Mujinga 21:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have seen reference to the UK having low levels of iodine in the soil due to the last ice-age, this reference comes from the Vegan Society. I have recently contacted them to see where they got this information, I received the following reply: "According to Stephen Walsh PHD in his book 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health' (The Vegan Society, ISBN 0-907337-27-9) "The iodine content of plant foods depends on the iodine content of the soil, which varies greatly from one part of the world to another. Iodine in the soil is low in many areas, including most regions that were covered by ice during the last Ice Age". (p106)". I have not been able to find an independent reference that confirms this. Due to conversations I have had recently with scientists I am inclined to be sceptical, does anyone have a link to a scientific paper or other research that confirms that there are low levels of Iodine in the UK soil. Thanks - Solar 08:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I dont have access to the full article. -- Mig77 (t) 10:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In the next major edit/reworking of the page, could an attempt be made at providing a more balanced perspective? I have nothing against veganism, but this reads like a "20 Reasons You Should Be Vegan" article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erdrickgr ( talk • contribs)
I have added a citation request regarding the reference to Hinduism. As far as I am aware most Hindus eat cheese, yoghurt and ghee/clarified butter ( lacto vegetarianism). To include their reference under veganism seems unnecessary, and even misleading. nirvana2013 19:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope, didn't miss it. I was hoping for a balanced treatment, not "Section 1: Be Vegan, it's cool," and then an added "Section 2: Don't be vegan, you'll cause birth defect and other bad stuff". It's as though the article is written by two seperate people/groups. Which I guess might be accurate.
Veganism is indirectly implied by the requirement that Hindus should only eat satvic foods. Since cows are not treated to Hindu standards in western society, most if not all dairy products are unsuitable for Hindus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satvic
Modern days Hindus, like myself, have incorporated veganism as an extension of the philosophy of ahinsa (non-violence).
I have removed the sentence "It must be pointed out that vitamin B12, in a form usable by humans, only occurs in animals." which was added today. Since B12 is available in fortified foods and in (vegan) tablet form, the statement clearly is not true. It would be more accurate to say that plants do not contain B12, but in my view the article already made this clear.-- Michig 12:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
"Since B12 is available in fortified foods and in (vegan) tablet form." Um, where exactly are you thinking that B12 is coming from? It's either coming from animal products, or human feces, both of which aren't vegan. Bacteria are not plants. - MSTCrow 21:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The fact is that the statement "vitamin B12, in a form usable by humans, only occurs in animals" is false, and seriously misleading (it suggests that being truly vegan is impossible). Perhaps there is a misconception here that bacteria, if they are not plants, are necessarily animals. Actually, bacteria are neither plants nor animals. David Olivier 07:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section stating that B-12 is synthesized in the colons of humans and other animals. While it is true, it is misleading in the extreme. We can dispense with the "other animals", as it is not pertinant to the discussion (unless vegans will eat cow poo ;). As for humans, yes, bacteria in the colon do produce B12, which then goes in the toilet -- your body does NOT absorb any of it. One study had vegans consuming capsules containing the B12 extracted from their own stools, which worked, but is, in my POV, quite gross. I'm guessing they were college students... :) Mdbrownmsw 17:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello Skinwalker, do you have a cite for your claim? Countless studies refer to findings using both "found, suggest and show". show, shown, shown, found, found, suggest and found. Even this: Thousands of scientific studies document this. The Dr. is not referring to comparison study, interesting language.-- Scribner 00:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Tagged "disputed" because of the three claims in the first paragragh I read were pov, all three claims are false. I haven't checked the entire section, yet. I checked this paragragh at random. Don't remove the tag until a check is done. Here's the paragraph:
"Related studies note the importance of early recognition of significant maternal vitamin B12 deficiency during pregnancy and lactation in vegetarians is emphasized so that appropriate supplementation can be given and irreversible neurologic damage in the infant prevented.[37] Critics also point to studies which show that a Vegetarian diet is linked to genital defects.[38] They also cite that a vegan diet carries an increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke.[39]"
Two sentences are lies, one, the last is ridiculous misrepresentation.-- Scribner 04:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't recall when the last time I was on this article was, but god damn folks, what happened? The article at least used to look half-way decent. Now it's so filled with tags and prose (unwikified, unsourced pov nonsense) that I don't know what they hell's been going on. The hell of it all is, most of the text in the top half seems to be precisely the same. I don't mean to just complain, but I don't want to get myself too-far into this article again. Nothing good came out of it last time was. That said, is there anything small that I can do to help? Give me a message if y'all ever need an outside voice on it; I know how helpful that can be sometimes. Two-three people get so wrapped up in arguing over an article, they forget everything else, and that's no good. It almost seems like this article could be better if it were entirely re-written, from the ground-up. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like the two big problems with length are the Nutrition section (which is more sepcific than the main article Vegan nutrition, and two widely-unsourced & unwikified sections, Criticism & Controversy and "Levels of Adherance". Both of these sections at least need to be organized better.
I'm off for tonight, but I'd suggest moving the bulk (meaning all of the subsections) of the Vegan Nutrition section over to their main article, and having at most a one-sentence mention of each vitamin/mineral/chemical/whatever. What do others thing of the nutrition plan? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"In conclusion, an inhibitory effect of SAH on whole-genome methylation was found, but from our data no interaction between vegetarian lifestyle and DNA methylation could be determined.
This is another B12 deficiency study. The study does NOT support the section, not at all.-- Scribner 16:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, Idleguy, you cherry-picked this: "low-fat vegan diet is the increased risk of hemorrhagic (vessel rupture leading to bleeding) stroke."
"Although a low-saturated-fat vegan diet may markedly reduce risk for coronary heart disease, diabetes, and many common cancers, the real Achilles heel of the low-fat vegan diet is the increased risk of hemorrhagic (vessel rupture leading to bleeding) stroke. Apparently the atherosclerotic (plaque building) process that creates a local vascular environment favorable to coronary thrombosis (clot) and intravascular embolism (traveling clot) may be protecting the fragile blood vessels in the brain from rupture under years of stress from high blood pressure. Admittedly, hemorrhagic stroke is a very small percentage of the deaths in modern countries. It still is worth noting that if strict vegetarians are to have the potential to maximize their lifespan, it is even more important they avoid a high salt intake because salt intake increases blood pressure. Almost all of the soy based meat analogues and many other health food store (vegan) products are exceptionally high in sodium." [9]
Davis does not seem to be disputing that vegan lifestyles prevents unnecessary death of animals. Maybe this wording is just misleading. To me, it looks more like Davis is saying that even though Dietary Veganism may lead toward the prevention of some death, it does not address the fact that industrialized crop production kills animals and insects as well. What do you all think?
Is it really neccessary to have two different quotes? It looks like the first quote is half of a thought, and the second quote is a full thought. Could we not rephrase it to be:
I don't have the page in front of me, but something along those lines. What do you all think? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I would like to bring this to everyone's attention. User:Scribner is accusing me for mentioning his name in the edit summary. My edit summary was "rm tag inserted by Scribner. See Wikipedia:Disputed statement. sourced statements citing studies aren't dubious." I hardly find any personal attacks there. If using one's username in edit summary if it is considered as personal attacks then any summaries like "rv edits by User:xyz to version by User:123" would also be considered as an attack.
I merely used his username since I wanted to point out the editor who added that tag. Further I have gone and added another journal as a source for the genital/birth defect issue. I find that the said user is taking this personally and trying to start a personal attack for edits. If the "Dr. Fuhrman" issue is controversial, I have no issues that until a few others have a source on the link between haemmorhage and vegetarianims is proved, it need not be readded. But to brand someone as "by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic." is a blatant attempt to humiliate someone. Idleguy 07:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I think that we should be very clear about claims we make, and qualify all of them. Let's get one thing clear: A Vegetable is indeed vegetarian, but it is nto a specifically vegetarian food. Most humans, being omnivores, eat vegetables. When we make claims about vegetables grown as part of modern industrial agriculture which makes use of pesticides, we should be clear that we are talking about vegetables which are grown with modern industrial agricultural techniques including the use of pesticides and other chemicals.
Omnivores consume the same fruit and vegetables, and suffer from the same health concerns. The problem here is with spraying pesticides on the crop, not with vegetarianism. For example:
Here, the point is that pesticide residue and phytoestrogens can be dangerous if consumed in large amounts. If we insist on using this source, perhaps we could say:
If not that exact wording, that idea. The point of the BBC article, is:
The entire Criticisms & controversy section is riddled with misleading facts like this, impropperly qualified, if at all, and quotes taken out of context. I fear I shall have to go through each one individually. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
All of the health claims made in the criticism section, such as:
should be qualified, to make clear that the risk factor only comes into play when said vegetarian women do not obtain adequate nutrients. Otherwise, we are being misleading, and doing readers a disservice. And if we are going to make many claims like this, we must qualify every one. Otherwise we run the risk of misquoting, and misleading. When we quote sources, we must be sure to preserve the context which the quote was originally in. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm questioning a source here, again. The National Cattleman's Beef Association's sponsored African study, referenced in the Health crticisms section. Should we really be presenting information from such an obviously partisan organization? Granted they didn't conduct the study themselves, but they were a major financial backer, and influenced the results. Excuse me for questioning aspects of the article more than I am actively contributing to it. I just don't usually see articles with this much criticism. I think that Wikipedia articles are meant to present a neutral view of an article, not volleys back and forth. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Reposted from Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-publishedsources
A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Exceptions to this may be when a well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications, and they are writing under their own name or known pen-name and not anonymously.
However, editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, someone else will have done so; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.
Reports by anonymous individuals, or those without a track record of publication to judge their reliability, do not warrant citation at all, until such time as it is clear that the report has gained cachet, in which case it can be noted as a POV.
I believe we may have many references which should not be in the article. I have not read through all of our 40-50-some-odd references. I have seen a few. I'd like to hear what others have to say. The following may not be reliable sources, based on the above policy.
This post is only to resolve a confusion in the lead para and not to be mistaken as singling out/attacking anyone. In this edit, User:Kellen` removed "almost all" stating that in theory they commit to abstaining from all of them. But the article line begins with "In practice, a vegan..." So if the abstention is in theory, the the article ought to reflect that, or if it is in practice, then "almost all" should be readded. Idleguy 12:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Should I attempt to rectify the ambiguity of the sentence by removing "in practice" or are there better suggestions for phrasing? Kellen T 16:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Mdbrownmsw and I appear to be reading the same information in totally different ways.
My version:
Also in 2002, the UK Food Standards Agency reported that 5% of respondents self-identified as vegetarian or vegan. Of that 5%, 29% said they avoided "all animal products."<ref name="Food Standards Agency"/>
Mdbrownmsw's:
Also in 2002, the UK Food Standards Agency reported that 5% of respondents self-identified as vegetarian or vegan. Though 29% of that 5% said they avoided "all animal products" only 5% reported avoiding dairy. Based on these figures, approximately 0.25% or less of the UK population follow a vegan diet.<ref name="Food Standards Agency">{{cite web| url = http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ndnsprintedreport.pdf| title = National Diet and Nutrition Survey| accessdate = 2006-11-06| work = Food Standards Agency}}</ref> <!-- See page 23, 95% said they ate dairy, so, at most, 5% of 5% (0.25%) are vegans. -->
Besides the fact that he has introduced a second citaiton which appears earlier in the article, I assert that he is incorrectly reading the data. Page 23 of the report has a table with the following:
Table 2.9: Types of food avoided by respondents who said they were vegetarian or vegan
Those who said they were vegetarian or vegan | Percentages |
---|---|
Types of food avoided | all |
Red meat | 100 |
White meat | 92 |
Fish | 48 |
Eggs | 21 |
Milk | 5 |
Other dairy products (e.g. butter/cheese) | 10 |
All animal products | 29 |
Other | 7 |
Base, number of vegetarian or vegan respondents* | 106 |
Note: * Percentages add to more than 100 as some respondents reported avoiding more than one type of food.
Mdbrownmsw's edits reflect (I think) a reading of this table as saying "only 5 percent avoided milk" and therefore "95 percent are not vegan." I believe he has mis-read the data to be exclusive when it is actually inclusive, and provides no additional information about those not explicitly included in each group. That is; some of the 29 percent who marked that they "avoid all animal products" may also have marked that they avoid red and white meat, eggs, dairy, etc or they might have only marked that they avoided all animal products.
I would like some other readings of this data since it makes a significant difference in the possible percentage of vegans. Kellen T 13:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I went through the cite given, i.e. this one. He actually says he went vegan in 1990 and not prior to the world record breaking Olympics in 1988 seoul. and his "best year" came as he says later in the article 1991. Maybe he personally thought it was his best year but actually he had performed better in 84 and 88 olympics when he wasn't vegan, atleast not according to what he says. And there have also been accusations of his drug abuse. See Carl_Lewis#Drug_accusations so comparing him with Ben Jonson is also pointless. So i've reworded it to what is actually in the source. Idleguy 19:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the link apparently is considered spam, here are more for cleanup, if anyone is so inclined: Linksearch: *.brook.com/veg/ -- Femto 11:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC), Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam
Wouldn't it make sense to consolidate the bare-bones "List of Vegans" article into this main page and re-title the section "Famous Vegans" or "Notable Vegans"? I realize space is a consideration, but a list of notable adherents is usually pretty standard on pages dealing with a particular philosophy or lifestyle. Atlantawiki 01:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added a source (Vegan Society) for the statement that supplements are recommended for vegans. I removed the section stating that supplements are recommended for everyone, vegan and non-vegan alike, because the source cited did not state that IN RELATION TO VEGANS. Per WP:OR "the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say". Mdbrownmsw 15:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
to Mdbrownmsw: i removed the contradiction tag for a couple of reasons:
thanks! frymaster 07:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following: "The evidence is overwhelming that vegetarians have lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease, and that non-meat eating reduces all-cause mortality by 50%.[20]"
Actually, the source cited (which is not "overwhelming evidence", nor does it claim such evidence exists) says, in reviewing previous results:
"it was suggested that the exclusion of meat from the diet might result in a 15–25% reduction in risk for ischemic heart disease."
Then, it's study results: "These large reductions in the apparent effect of diet group may be because the healthy volunteer effect was more pronounced in the vegetarian subjects, who were likely to have been more strongly motivated and, therefore, generally healthier than the nonvegetarian subjects at recruitment. It is also likely that there was some crossover among diet groups during the first 5 y of the study, which would dilute the apparent benefits of a meatless diet."
Finally, this article is about veganism, not vegetarianism. The study found NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER accross several mortality rates for fish eaters, who are, of course, not vegans. Mdbrownmsw 19:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is great. It perfectly sums up what vegans stand for and the downsides to this lifestyle choice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vegen8tor ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
Editors may be interested in Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 December 8#Template:Pet Species. Please keep the discussion to the encyclopedic merits of the template, not ideology. — coelacan talk — 15:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This report from the UN might be of interest here, as well as at Environmental vegetarianism. It's about the UN's conclusions on the environmental impact of livestock. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 02:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to encourage the regular editors of this page to please always use an appropriate citation template when adding references. This is usually {{ cite journal}} or {{ cite web}}. Most of the article is properly cited in this fashion and it would be nice (structurally, visually and functionally) to have it consistent. Kellen T 18:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I was looking for more information on the different levels of veganism, I was wondering if someone who knew about the subject could add a section on what each level means. JW 00:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Skinwalker, what criticism was removed? It looks like you just reverted a response to criticism. (Note that I'm not involved/invested in whatever's been going on in that section.) -- Joe haer 05:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
further on that subject there doesn't seem to be much criticism of veganism in this page at all. just the ethical crit. portion and a few bits about how to avoid health problems. there are many more arguments against veganism that just a few paltry health concerns and some abstract ethical arguments. where the comprehensive criticism section that appears in almost every other article on these sorts of subjects? furthermore much of the information quoted in this article specifically refers to vegetarian diets, and does not necessarily carry over to a vegan diet. for example: vegetarian diets are linked to higher IQ, vegan diets however are linked to lower IQ. this fact is listed in the vegetarian article, but curiously omitted here. in short the article is poorly constructed and badly biased. its set up to say as few bad things about veganism as possible, as opposed to offering a balanced/objective look at the subject. 24.185.239.254 20:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
There is not much crtisism of Veganism because there are very few things negative associated to being Vegan. It is good for the environment and one's health. What is there to critisize?
Scientific studies about the vegan diet are welcome, but the section on the study funded by the American Cattlemen's Association is very misleading. If one had read the study or even the critical articles in the news about it (no, not the ones where the Beatle comments - he's not a scientist), one would find that the study is an almost comically biased ploy to promote beef consumption and make meat eaters feel better about themselves. The children in the study had diets consisting mainly of corn and some beans - hardly what someone who chooses a vegan diet would eat. Some groups received mince, others milk, and others oil - and some of these already malnourished children received nothing - to supplement the "diet", all with the same caloric value, but without the other nutrients in the meat. Supplemented soya mince could have been used and compared to the beef; instead, there was a gaping hole in the diets of the "meat-free" groups. This does not apply to veganism in any way. The only thing this study suggests is that when starving, malnourished children get ANY food with vitamins they aren't already getting, they are healthier. Well, duh.
Instead of trying to hold a candle to the vegan movement, we should be questioning the ethics of those who would use impoverished children as tools to promote food products. They withheld food from groups of children in this study - living people - knowing it would stunt their physical and mental growths and perhaps deny them much-needed opportunities in life. These people have no right to call vegans "unethical."
That said, I'm a new wikipedia user (and a very long-time reader), so I would rather the section be removed by a more experienced user, so as not to appear I am vandalizing. I would very much appreciate input on this. Noxic 22:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to re-add the section because it was published by an author employed by a reputable institution; the study's backers were identified in our article; a reply to the study was offered by the BDA. Kellen T 17:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Saw this on Newsnight last week ethical man kills turkey as he believes people should see the animals they eat being killed. then goes on a month long vegan diet to find out what difference cutting animal products from his diet would make to "carbon footprint".
carbon-guru Professor Tim Jackson calculates that 18% of the carbon emissions created by the average diet are from meat and a further 10% are from dairy products. only counting carbon dioxide would be a woeful underestimate no-one has calculated the contribution methane and nitrous oxide emissions make to the climate cost of the food meaties eat. he it is safe to double the figure for carbon dioxide which means 60% of the global warming potential of the average diet is from animal products.
Just something interesting to chew over for Veganism meet daisy the cow Whackorobin 07:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
This is rather one sided. Just from reading the opening paragraph, it seems like everyone who is a vegan is automatically a card carrying PETA supporter. Vegan doesn't nessicerily mean someone who avoids animal products all together, although some might, just one who doesn't have any animal products *in their food*. Unless someone can support the original view, i'm going to change this -- feb talk 04:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I am rather reluctant to bring this issue up, but the issue of vegan IQ is misrepresented in the article. Vegans actually scored the lowest in the paper IQ in childhood and vegetarianism in adulthood: 1970 British cohort study. There are of course numerous problems with this study, firstly vegans were actually only 0.1% of the study sample, which in my view is far too low to get an accurate average, and secondly there are numerous problems with the cultural biasing of IQ tests. In my opinion it is unfortunate that many vegetarian groups feel it is useful to draw on this kind of study as a piece of propaganda. I will change the entry to reflect the issues with the sample size and the actual vegan IQ levels reported. - Solar 15:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the statement that "all unshellaced fruits are vegan" is untrue, and ridiculous. A fruit that had been covered with whale oil is no more vegan than a fruit covered in insect lac. Further, materials not made from insect lac, are often referred to as shellac, anyway, despite not fitting the exact definition of shellac. Can't we just have a picture of fruit and say "fruit is vegan?" Huh? this is ridiculous the way it is, and sound like something a non-vegan would say to try and convince people that vegans are obsessed with minutia and are petty.-- Nomenclator 17:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
yes, veganism is sometimes described as strict vegetarianism. But that is NOT precisely what veganism is. The claim that it is is a popular myth, not a fact. To be accurate, an encyclopedia should tell us what something is not what something is known as. The later sentences in the article even acknowledge that veganism is much more than strict veganism. And that fact should be emphasised, not obscured. I propose we drop the part about "known as." And change the first sentence to something more like "Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle that involves the avoidence of using animals and animal products for food, clothing and other purposes." In that sentence I've also fixed a grammatical problem of subject predicate agreement in number. Further down, we should add that "veganism is more than strict vegetarianism..." Do we want to tell the facts or do we simply want to propogate popular myths?
Also, adherent is too formal a word for someone who simply practices veganism. Yes, veganism has its adherents. But the word is still too formal. Beubg a vegan doesn't require any kind of announcement or proposal of adherence. So it has adherence to it, but saying it has adherents is too formal. The term should not be part of its definition.
I am going to persist on the subject of testing on animals, too. Find be a good citation for this being a fact, and I'll let it stay. Otherwise, I want it changed. -- Nomenclator 13:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought I was using the indent properly. Hyperflux wrote "I have frequently encountered people who use those terms in order to explain veganism to non-vegetarians more easily." That suggests that the terms are oversimplifications. Vegans are strict vegetarians, but they are much more than that. All vegans are strict vegetarians, but not all strict vegetarians are vegan. Period. That is why the terms should not be interchanged without further explanation. A vegan is a kind of strict vegetarian who 1. is a vegetarian for reasons of avoiding harm to animals (as opposed to primarily for his/her own better health or primarily for any other reason), and 2. Carries their avoidance of harm to animals to all aspects of their life, as far as they themselves evaluate as reasonably possible. Which brings us to the subject of "pure" vegans. Equating pure vegans with all vegans gives people the impression that we are obcessed with minutia. Indeed, this is a frequent characteristic of vegans, including myself. However it is not part of the definition of vegan. It also makes us seem petty. Frankly, I am trying to avoid being "penny wise and pound foolish" even though my natural tendency is to be penny wise and pound foolish - searching for every drop of gelatin, or inquiring of one manufacturer after another whether the stearic acid at the end of an ingredient list, is animal or vegetable in origin. It we spend so much time on details like this - which I admit I personally love to do, even tho I am improving in this regard and doing it less - we miss the big picture, and we have less time for presenting the big picture to others. For example if in the past I had worried about the fraction of a millimeter of gelatin covering my photographic film, I could not have shown dozens of people photos of my wonderful vegan garden, and impress them with how impressive it was. I tended to obsess about it, but I eventually made a decision for just myself, personally, that it wasn't worth obsessing about the few milligrams of gelatin, and that showing the pictures would do more good. That is not the same as saying I buy Jell-o - which I estimate contains 100 if not thousands of times as much gelatin as a roll of 35 mm film.-- Nomenclator 18:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it's very important for this page to examine the environmental implications of vegan farming. I have been writing a personal examination of "Veganism and Agricultural Efficiency" which looks at aspects such as energy transference in food chains and land area required to support vegan diets compared to animal based diets, but it is currently nowhere near encyclopaedia standard.
I am especially interested in the food chain angle. The transference of energy from one level of a food chain to the next involves a 90% loss of energy, according to the ecological pyramid.
It makes far greater sense (in terms of logic, efficiency and productivity) for humans to be the primary consumer in their food chain than to massively reduce efficiency by adding cattle or other animals into the food chain and consequently become secondary consumers.
If anyone has any ideas on how to bring this angle to Wikipedia, I'd be happy to discuss it in detail.
Hyperflux 11:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section about some vegans avoiding toothpaste with calcium from bone sources and whatever. This are minutia that may be interest to vegans having a discussion with each other about exactly how far to go, in being vegan, but is not of interest to the general public and does not belong in an encyclopedia article. -- Nomenclator 01:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the part about excess soy being harmful. It is totally irrelevant. Many vegans use very little soy. Some use absolutely none. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nomenclator ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
"soy is a very common ingredient in vegan cuisine"
Sorry English is not my native language but I am trying my best to correct myths about veganism that are not true. I hope you will please correct my english but leave the facts that are true the way I said they are to be true.
I also like to note that The American Vegan Society was founded in 1960 and has been in continuous power since then and is the most important vegan org in the united states and probably in the whole all the americas. It has publishes a quarterly magazine, Ahimsa, for about 44 of those years that it is now renamed the American Vegan since the last few years. The connection between ahimsa in the east and veganism has been mentioned by writers such Albert Sweitzer and Leo Tolstoy.
Whiel Vegan Outreach has been very influential, it owes much to those that have gone before. Jay and Freya Dinshah and the American Vegan Society are really the founding parents of the vegan movement in the US. there is absolutely no doubt about that. The people at Vegan Outreach will themselves tell you that. -- Tonguebutcher 01:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Nomenclator 12:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Vegan majority or vegan leadership: which defines the truth about veganism?
While veganism has always been an informal development, it has also always had a strong leadership. People are not adherants to what the leadership says. They are simply educated by the leadership, and perhaps also gently guided by the leadership. Thus, comes the question is a vegan what the majority of people who say they are vegan, is; or is a vegan what the leadership says veganism is; or is it somewhere inbetween. It is certainly not the first choice. Because many people who claim to be vegan, are clearly not. There are 1000's of people who say they don't use dairy or eggs - but in actuality really use them.
This goes to my claim that vegans only occasionally avoid products that are "tested on animals." My claim keeps getting erased, but without any citation to back it up. The fact is, while a few vegans eschew products tested on animals, the vegan leadership does not require that one do so, in order to define the person as a vegan. I have already cited the american vegan society re this. Yet my claim keeps getting reverted. Also my claim that veganism sprouts from ahimsa and eastern thought or owes a debt to eastern thought, keeps getting erased, despite the fact that I have provided citation for my claim, and there has been no citation for the obverse claim other than that Vegan Outreach better represents veganims than the Am erican Vegan Society. But they did not cite source for this claim, and I cited the much longer existence and history of publications of the Am Vegan Society. Even so, Vegan outreach does not say my claim is untrue. And vegan outreach acknowledges the work done by the Am VEgan Society.
I think we have a conspiracy here to promote popular myths about veganism, rather than the truth, about veganism. -- Nomenclator 13:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
All, most, many, or some. At first it was claimed all. Now the article says most. In my opinion, unless you can cite specif reliable source that indicates that more than 50% avoid products that have been tested, it is best to say that "some" vegans avoid products that have been tested on animals. Indeed, some take veganism to this extreme. I might myself, if I had more time and money to spend on tedious research. But I don't think most do. I have heard many vegans say they simply can't afford the higher prices that are usually charged for products labeled as being not being tested on animals. And again, if you are going to eschew products that have been tested on animals, you are going to be eschewing most prescription drugs, and many non-prescription drugs, and all of the new drugs developed in the last 25 to 50 years, since which time governments have required testing, by law. This includes ibuprofen, humulin, Nexium, Lyrica, gabapentin, diphenhydramine, oxycodone (but not morhpine), hydrocodone (but not codeine), birth control pills, synthetic steroids (to relieve asthma, allergies), drugs used to relieve too much urine, too little urine, drugs used to relieve sore eyes, to control herpes, all antibiotics, drugs used to anesthesize people for surgery. Or are you going to avoid just cosmetics that have been tested on animals, but be willing to take prescription drugs? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nomenclator ( talk • contribs) 19:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
Most vegans refrain from supporting industries that use animals directly or indirectly, such as circuses and zoos, and will not use products that are tested on animals.
Although vegans are against animal testing, some feel that boycotting all animal tested products is currently impractical or impossible, especially in medical areas, where many life-saving drugs are tested on animals. Vegans refrain from supporting industries that use animals directly, such as circuses and zoos.
Please present a citation that shows that vegans are more susceptible to vitamin A deficiency, or remove the sentence or sentences that makes this claim. There is no support of this idea anywhere, as far as I know. It is mere speculation.
I am trying to bring this article out of the swamp of repetition of absurd rumors, and popular mythology. -- Nomenclator 16:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the part about vegans being in danger of a vitamin A deficiency. The source cited for this, http://www.purifymind.com/NutritionalVege.htm, is not a reliable source. This is someone at a company, Nutrition International Company, perhaps selling vitamin supplements, not someone you would rely on to have a neutral point of view. Please find a peer-reviewed study if you want to return this claim. All the info I have seen shows that beta-carotene, the chemical most frequently found, and found in abundance, in plant material, is easily converted into retinol, except by a few people with rare metabolic disorders. Further, beta-carotene is in such huge abundance in yellow and green vegetables that anyone who eats even a fraction of the recommended number of servings is sure to get much more carotene than they need. Vegans tend to eat more vegetables than many non vegans. Also, once converted to retinol, retinol is stored for long periods of time, so you do not need to eat vegetables every day to get sufficient retinol into storage. That source was just ridiculous. In any case the article cited does not say that vegans are at risk of vit a deficiency. It says that "Some individuals with adequate intake of beta-carotene [emphasis mine] experienced vitamin A deficiency because consumption of insufficient amount of fat together with carotene-rich vegetables, and dietary deficiencies in iron and zinc. Thus, vegetarians are urged to consume dark colored leafy vegetables with some fat, also inactivated yeasts, spices, peas..." Vegetarians and vegans are likely to be consuming leafy greens, and fat. In re to leafy greens, more so than average.-- Nomenclator 14:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Acc to Dr. William Harris, from The Scientific Basis of Vegetarianism, on the web here, http://www.vegsource.com/harris/sci_basis/CHAP1.pdf avail from page here http://www.vegsource.com/harris/book_contents.htm
"Beta-carotene is usually called pro-vitamin A and retinol is called "Vitamin A". I believe this is an error on the part of the nutritional establishment. Two molecules of retinol, an essential hormone-like metabolite required for skin, vision, and reproduction, are formed in the body by enzymatically splitting one molecule of beta-Carotene, a photosynthetic plant pigment interacting with chlorophyll and found in green leafy vegetables. This being so retinol fails the definition of vitamin. Beta-carotene should be called the true Vitamin A. It is synthesized only by plants. Retinol is synthesized only by animals, but there can be no retinol in the animal kingdom unless somewhere in the food chain there is an animal eating plant beta-Carotene.
-- Nomenclator 17:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you agree with me but that's not what I said.-- Nomenclator 00:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
It is controversial. It is better to avoid using the misleading term "vitamin" altogether and use organic micronutrient, co-enzyme. -- Nomenclator 00:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
"In a recent laboratory study, 60% of the strict vegan participants' B12 and iron levels were compromised, as compared with the lacto- or lacto-ovo-vegetarian participants (who were able to acquire vitamin B12 from these animal sources).[46]"
I'm removing this from the article:
Because my reading of the abstract seems to indicate that these counts were used to diagnose B12 deficiency, which has already been mentioned and cited by this study. If this is wrong, somebody can add the sentence back in; it uses the "vegparameters" reference. Kellen T 06:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
This part of the article is suspect:
The first sentence cites a BBC news source, but even inside that article the study is criticized as being flawed (by not including what men ate, since men determine the gender of a child). The second sentence cites the weston a. price foundation, which has been criticized (notorious?) for railing against vegetarian diets, without the WAP foundation citing any other source. Kellen T 12:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree this is sketcy too. One study. And it didn't even postulate anything about the sex of the fathers, even tho we know that sex is largely determined by sperm characteristics and not egg characteristics. Are veg mothers more likely to get knocked up by veg men than non-veg mothers? Or do veg mothers have a prediliction for flesh-eating fathers? Maybe it is the diet of the fathers that affected the outcome? Too much conjecture and not enough fact. Drop the whole thing.
-- Nomenclator 00:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the section on hypospadias should be removed. The citation isn't very convincing. Diet was based on answers to survey, not observation. The comment "As vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens than do omnivores" is not supported with citation. Vegetarians often consume more dairy products than people with a "standard" diet. We don't know that it isn't hormones in dairy products that caused hypospadias. Vegan diet is often different than a typical vegetarian diet. The article has too many assumptions to be at all useful. Even if it wasn't, I would need to see more than one study. The cited study should suggest further reasearch. It does not produce enough resulte to draw any conclusions. I should add that the grammar is wrong in, and affects the meaning of, the following sentence fragment: "...phytoestrogens, found in soya products, nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues." The fragment tells us that phytoestrogens are found in nutrient deficiencies and found in exposure to pesticde residues. The error could be fixed by changing the punctuation, but I recommend that the entire sentence simply be removed. Uness someone can point to additional studies that produce the same results.
-- Nomenclator 17:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Nomenclator 12:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
No one seems to object so I am going to make the above changes.-- Nomenclator 19:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The person was right to add leather and wool. I think the details he-she included were too much for the introductory paragraph. There is no controvery among vegans as to the idea that, ideally, products such as leather and wool should not be used, and to the idea that sometimes, in order to be pragmatic, and live well, things can't go precisely according to ideals, and leather and wool may be acceptable where alternatives are much more expensive, difficult to find, or even non-existant. Fur is usually considered totally off limits, as are ostentatious leather garments. -- Nomenclator 19:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Similar topics are found in the "health claims," and in the "nutrition" section. Probably these 2 sections should be made into one section with perhspa 2 subsections, and the sentences re-organized. The way the markup code and text is, this is going to be difficult to do. It is hard to find what you are looking for, in the editing screens. -- Nomenclator 19:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
there is a "health" subsection under the motivations section. Then, there is another section, a main section, called health effects. Some way to merge these into one, should be found. Perhaps the motivations section should be limited to just listing the motivations, then separate sections for going into pros and cons of health, environment, etc, should be made.-- Nomenclator 20:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I moved things around to try and get better organization of topics. I did not remove anything during these list few edits.-- Nomenclator 20:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
If you found some problems can't you just fix them, instead of reverting the whole thing? I don't see where the problems are. It looked good to me. I made a separate section for what were previously subsections of Motivations. Then I made a small motivations section that just listed the motivations, instead of going into detail. I don't see the problem. Organization of topics can never be perfect. I think my changes, tho not perfect, were an improvement, rather than something that made the article worse. -- Nomenclator 22:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Skinwalker can you please wait till i'm finished re-ordering the sections, before you revert them? I'm having trouble doing it all in one edit. So I am moving one section at a time, since it is hard to see how the format looks, when looking at the editing window. Then I am checking to see if things turn up in the place I expected, or not. Sometimes this will make the order temporarily worse. -- Nomenclator 02:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I know it's not perfect, but I think it is better than it was before. I've got all the b12 risks in one unbroken segment. I've separated vegan benefits from vegan risks. I removed a sentence about veganism and pregnancy that duplicates information abt veganism pregnancy mentioned earlier. If I bungled some stuff, can you please try to improve it, rather than revert it? -- Nomenclator 03:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the ethical criticisms section should be moved up near to, or sub to, ethics, with an added section for ethical pros. In other words and ethics section with ethical pro subsection and ethical con subjection. Or better choice of words for pro and con.-- Nomenclator 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest changing this to
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect. The authors of the study hypothesized that perhaps this is a result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or that it may be due to nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues.
Whaddayathink? -- Nomenclator 03:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect, and the authors of the study hypothesized that perhaps this is a result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or that it may be due to nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues.
Or like this:
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect hypothesized by the authors of the study as perhaps being the result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or as perhaps being the consequence of nutrient deficiencies, or of exposure to pesticide residues.
There is always more than one way to say something. I generally try to do my best to find the way of saying something that I think will make it easiest for readers to grasp. It is often easiest to grasp things when they are presented in small steps, rather than dumped on you all at once. Hence, several smaller sentences instead of one sentence with dependent clauses.
-- Nomenclator 14:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect. While a specific cause has not been isolated, the authors of the study hypothesized that perhaps this is a result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or that it may be due to nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues. Further research into the exact causes is necessary.
Weston A. Price has a well known bias against vegetarianism. It is a less than ideal source. Much like quoting from notmilk.com.
Perhaps we should be quoting the references used by the Weston A. Price foundation to make their statements? I am thinking specifically wrt the article on soy and puberty. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 20:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Many, if not most, vegans, do not view the fact that they do not eat flesh, dairy products, or eggs, as "abstaining" from them. The term abstain implies some kind of innate desire or need that is voluntarily being thwarted. In actuality, vegans, especially long-time vegans, and life-long vegans, don't even think about the things that are missing. Would you say that most people in North America "abstain" from eating insects, or would you simply say that they just don't usually eat insects? Do various Chinese nationalities abstain from dairy products, or are such products simply not part of their culture?
This includes my own point of view. I don't abstain from animal products. It just doesn't generally occur to me to buy any. I have little need to read ingredient labels and "abstain" from products with animal ingredients as I make most of my food from scratch. I buy single-ingredient items, not prepared foods. I make my own "frozen dinners." This means I barely have to think of having to "avoid" anything. I buy dry legumes, not canned. I don't obsess over the source of things present in minute amounts, like the vitamins added to flour or rice.
For example make almost all my food from things I buy such as dry legumes, wheat flour, rye flour, fresh or frozen vegetables and fruits. When I had land, I also grew many of my own fruits and vegetables. It simply does not occur to me to buy the flesh, bones, or organs, eggs, or secretions of vertebrate or invertebrate animals. I don't "abstain" from these. I barely even think about them, much less abstain from them.
-- Nomenclator 13:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
While stearic acid and other fatty acids are a possible "ingredient" in soap, fatty acids are also used to make soap, which can be made by chemically reacting a fatty acid with lye. There are 2 ways to make soap, the traditional method of saponifying a fat with a strong alkalai, to produce soap and glycerine, or the modern factory method of first separating a fat into individual fatty acids, then saponifying each fatty acid with an alkalai, one at time, to produce soap and glycernine, then blending various soaps, glycerine, fats, and fatty acids, back together, to precisely adjust the properties of a "soap product." It is explained here http://shakahara.com/soap3.html Instead of saying "soap with ingredients which may have been extracted from animal fat (e.g. stearic acid) is avoided" it would be better to day, soap made from animal fats rather than vegetable fats, may be avoided." Although soap products made from vegetable fat may have added animal ingredients, such as glycerine produced from animal fat, or unsaponified animal fats or fatty acids added (added in small amounts). -- Nomenclator 14:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Reorganization suggestions:
Kellen T 10:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
This section seems to contradict itself:
The American Dietetic Association says that a properly planned vegan diet presents no significant nutritional problems.[26] Vegans are potentially at risk for being deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[47] vitamin D,[48] calcium,[49][48] iodine[50] and omega-3 fatty acids.[51] These deficiencies can have potentially serious consequences, including anemia,[52] rickets[53] and cretinism[54] in children, and osteomalacia[53] and hyperthyroidism[54] in adults. Supplementation, particularly for vitamin B12, is highly recommended for vegans.[55]
-- Nomenclator 08:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
And the part about omega-3 fatty acids still needs clarification. The deficiency risk is not specific to vegans, it is a deficiency risk for the industrialized world in general. And I am tired of people who revert my attempts to change things so that they are are more accurate, simply because they didn't like the precise way I worded it. If I improved something, but didn't improve it "enough", you should leave it, or perhaps improve it a little more, not revert it back to being totally inaccurate.-- Nomenclator 08:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
. Vegans, being a subset of vegetarians, can be included as being at risk according to this study. It might be worth noting that the researchers considered the problem to be high soy (phytoestrogen) levels in the first trimester, but the article is quite clear on the risk. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 17:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)As vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens than do omnivores, these results support the possibility that phytoestrogens have a deleterious effect on the developing male reproductive system.
I just finished exploring one of those brilliant 'List' articles around, and I was thinking, would it be relevant (and forgive me if it's been done, I did a search I swear!) to create a list of animal ingredients, and include a link in this article? I know that many of you would agree that one's non-vegan friends and family are constantly saying "that's not vegan/vegetarian!?". Maybe a list would be really helpful to help people understand the scope of a vegan diet. As a very new Wikipedia member I feel it is not my place to create it myself, besides the fact that all the wiki-skills are a bit beyond me at this point. Anyone interested in doing this with me, or think it's totally pointless? Eddie mars 07:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Summary: The Health Effects Section of this article is written in a discriminatory tone against vegans. The POV tone, and oft-repeated information on nutritional deficiency and sexual defect seek to marginalize vegans as a class. This violated Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. The section on health effect should be condensed, and rewritten in a NPOV tone that does not cast all vegans as nutritional and sexual freaks.
"Vegans are potentially at risk for being deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[1] vitamin D,[2] calcium,[3][2] iodine[4] and omega-3 fatty acids.[5] These deficiencies can have potentially serious consequences, including anemia,[6] rickets[7] and cretinism[8] in children, and osteomalacia[7] and hyperthyroidism[8] in adults. Supplementation, particularly for vitamin B12, is highly recommended for vegans.[9]"
The intro paragraph currently reads:
Nomenclator ( talk · contribs) has repeatedly changed it to various different things including larger lists of non-vegan items, extra commentary from uncited vegans, etc, etc. Most recently he changed it to read ( diff):
I want this to stop. I'd like to take a poll of the editors of this page, to settle on an intro that is the most salient, verifiable summary of veganism/the article. Please sign below, with reasons. Kellen T 17:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Here you go: I made the language even more succinct, yet it covers more. No need to specify "dairy products" as in some cultures, dairy products aren't used anyway. So vegans don't leave them out of their diet. Secretions nicely covers dairy products, and anything else animals might secrete, that might be used, such as musk. Hides covers fur AND leather. If you'd like, I could add bones. Then it will be about the same length as it was, but cover more. And I could remove organs, as flesh sort of covers organs. Or I could just say tissues, organs, and secretions. Yea. That is what I think I'll do. That covers everything, yet it isn't a laundry list. As uit was, hides and musk had been left out. -- Nomenclator 17:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Please include what needs to be added/removed/etc so we can improve it
I do not think this passage should be in the article. The research study does not make a direct link between veganism and genital defects, saying "more research is necessary." Leaving this passage in the article makes it appear the book is closed on this allegation. Abe Froman 21:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The hypothesis that chemical (pesticide) contamination was to blame was deemed "interesting but not statistically significant", as was the issue of possible nutrient deficiencies. The only potential causal link is that with phytoestrogens, and researchers are even then unwilling to make the link until more research is done. I think that the article has a place here, but I think that we need to find more sources to back it up. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 15:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)As vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens than do omnivores, these results support the possibility that phytoestrogens have a deleterious effect on the developing male reproductive system.
I cleaned up the pregnancies section, which has been the focus of a lot of complaints. It's significantly smaller now.
Kellen T 12:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
With the cleanup of the vegan pregnancies section, the entire "health effects" section is now cited and pretty much clean. Some of the prose probably needs tweaking for it to be "beautiful," but I don't think it shows any POV problems. One concern I have about this section is that it could easily come to be a mirror of the "ada position" article. Summarizing things rather than detailing every single study should probably be a goal of editors of this section. Similarly, the introduction, vegan cuisine, and similar diets and lifestyles sections are concise and cited.
The first part of "definition" is pretty good, but as soon as the "animal products" part starts, it goes to hell. What nees major work, though, is actually honestly evaluating the ethics section, which implies some things, but doesn't really cite anything or bring in the objections of major vegan organizations. The "health" section also needs cleanup for clarity and WP:RSes. Kellen T 14:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I am posting my comment about the faulty scientific document presented in the article to support a position that a vegan diet has no effect on blood pressure. If the editors of this article agree with my reading of the material, then please remove the offensive passage and citation (#27). Thank you. Barnacleben 08:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me Kellen for posting a suggested change within the article itself about the link between blood pressure and a vegan diet. You deleted my parenthetical revision, so I am reposting my argument here for the benefit of those concerned: "(Edit: Preceeding claim is certainly wrong and potentially dangerous. It should be deleted because the "proof" given does not establish a credible scientific basis for the claim that a vegan diet has no effect on lowering blood pressure. Moreover, the poorly-constructed "study" cited to support this claim confesses that its "findings" are contradictory to the results of prior--and more credible--studies. Furthermore, the authors have chosen not proofread their [there, they're] own material, and by extension we can infer that it was neither reviewed by the scientific community. Get rid of it.)" I have also taken the liberty of deleting the offensive sentence and feel quite confidant that my reading of the material is correct. Do you disagree? Barnacleben 08:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
moved improperly placed comments from above Kellen writes "The truth is that working with a smaller subset of foods does put you at higher rsk for missing some nutrients"
That is basically incorrect. The fact is, that all the nutrients needed by animals, are produced by micro-organisms, and green plants. As a human animal, you can either eat the micro-organism or green plant directly, or eat an animal that has eaten the micro-organism or green plant, or an animal that has eaten such an animal, etcetera. This is basic junior high-school biology or junior high school health studies. None of the nutrients that we get from animals, cannot be gotten also - and more directly - from micro-organisms or green plants.-- Nomenclator 16:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
end moved comments
Cpoupart (not Kellen as I mistakenly said before) writes "The truth is that working with a smaller subset of foods does put you at higher rsk for missing some nutrients"
That is basically incorrect. The fact is, that all the nutrients needed by animals, are produced by micro-organisms, and green plants. As a human animal, you can either eat the micro-organism or green plant directly, or eat an animal that has eaten the micro-organism or green plant, or an animal that has eaten such an animal, etcetera. This is basic junior high-school biology or junior high school health studies. None of the nutrients that we get from animals, cannot be gotten also - and more directly - from micro-organisms or green plants. None of the nutrients that we need are actually synthesised by animals. They are all synthesised by micro-organims and green plants.
For examples we do not really need protein. Proteins are polymers of amino acids. We need the amino acids or precursors to amino acids, that make up proteins. Animals get all these amino acids, or partial amino acids, from green plants. Then they string them together into polymers. Humans, when we eat either plants or animals, break apart the protein polymers, and in some case partially disassemble the amino acids, then put them back together again into different amino acids, and different protein polymers. There is no material in animal proteins, that we need, that we can't also find in green plants.
Same goes for the fatty acids we need, and the carbohydrates we need. In some cases, animals will concentrate micronutrients. So we can get the micronutrients in concentrated form, that we can't get from green plants. This is not true for any macronutrients. But is probably true for vitamin B12. However animals will also concentrate toxic matter found in plants, or in the air, that can't be rapidly excreted. They will store it in their fatty tissues. Thus animals become a better source of dioxins, or mercury, than green plants will be. Same is true for iodine (if we eat animal thyroid glands). Iodine is one of those chemicals that we need in tiny amounts, but in larger amounts becomes toxic to us. It is absorbed from the soil by green plants, even though green plants have no use for it. In other words, something can be both a nutrient and a poison, depending on quantity.
Contrary to popular belief, when measuring grams of protein per gram of substance, and measuring at the same level of hydration, animals do not have more protein in their muscle tissue than is found in plant tissues. Dehydrated collards, for example, actually have a higher percentage of protein than dehydrated muscle tissue.
-- Nomenclator 16:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Not everything that is described as "shellac" is really the traditional formulation of lac dissolved in alcohol, that was the original "shellac." Do you think that "latex paints" contain latex? Not in 50 years. The first latex paints contained latex. Gradually various other elastic resins began being used. Today, there is not a single "latex paint" on the market that truly has latex in it. And lots of things called shellac, just do not have any lac in them. Fruits can, however, be covered with beeswax, or whale oil.-- Nomenclator 03:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Says "Vegans note additional health benefits are gained by not consuming artificial substances such as growth hormones and antibiotics, which are often given to farmed animals." However what proof for this is there? Not "note" this but claim this is what a few vegans do. Evidence supporting their claims is at best not a lot of it. So to Are there really enough growth hormones in milk to affect milk drinkers? The dairy industry it says no. As a controversy this should not be in encyclopedia where we are wanting facts not controversies, unless they are labeled as controversies. Controversies should not be presented as facts, as here they are presented. No? I'm sorry my English is not good so someone you want to write the changes be else, not me, it would be better. -- Tonguebutcher 22:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
There is some dispute about weather or not Peter Singer is a vegan, or simply a vegetarian. His wikipedia page categorizes him as an Australian Vegan and articles like this one from The Guardian [23] also describe him as such. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 19:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't prove this, but for informational sake, I emailed Peter Singer at Princeton a couple of years ago and we talked about veganism and he advocated it heavily. I think saying you're an "impure" vegan doesn't mean you're a vegetarian. I can relate to what he's saying - he's a vegan most of the time but doesn't do it perfectly. GingerGin 04:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've heard him say, on video, he's a vegetarian. It's either in the Singer-Asch debate or the Princeton University Food, Ethics and the Environment Conference at. Here are the links http://realserver.princeton.edu:8080/ramgen/special/19991012singer_ashTV7220K.rm and http://realserver.princeton.edu:8080/ramgen/special/20061116foodconference-session1VN350K.rm
I came across the following on the Tertullian site ( www.tertullian.org and www.tertullian.org/fathers) - there are several sections
Porphyry (philosopher), On abstinence from animal food: [ [26]] - if someone wishes to put in the links. Jackiespeel 18:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a popular myth(?) that vegans can eat certain kinds of shell fish, such as mussels, as they lack a nervous system and are incapable of suffering. Is this true? One way or the other, should mention be made of it in the article? Thefuguestate 10:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I just glanced at the references and literally laughed at how bad they are. I don't care enough about the topic to do it myself, but if any self-respecting vegan wikipedians read this may I suggest using sources not from websites such as notmilk.com lol. Cheers. Rothery 13:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Moved unreferenced sources from main page. Kellen T 16:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the data related to # of vegans should be moved elsewhere in the article, with a summary in the intro. I'm not 100% sure of what the title of the section should be; perhaps "Demographics". Comments/concerns? Kellen T 12:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
As a subheading for the picture next to 'health' it says "A fruit stall in Barcelona. All fruit is vegan."... should this not make the exception for some apples which are coated with shellac? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.139.184.202 ( talk) 21:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
Do we really need some section that will inevitably be filled with non- or poorly sourced material? Can the fact that these people are vegan be mentioned on their own pages if it is notable enough rather than here? Kellen T 08:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the "gestation crate" picture really needs an extended explanation of what's going on; there can be a link to an article about the crates rather than having that info here. It doesn't significantly add to the "ethics" section, imho. Kellen T 01:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The image seems unfairly biased without an explanation of the background. Perhaps a truncated explanation would work: that gestation crates are necessary to protect piglets. (Also, this is the heart of the ethical issue with the crates: do you protect the piglets or do you provide the sows with more room to roam?) Jav43 22:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The conclusion in this paragraph doesn't sound correct:
The definition of Vegan in the article includes not using animal products such as leather and wool. If the poll didn't ask respondents about non-food uses of animal products, then the conclusion "They were, in other words, vegan" doesn't hold. At best, 1.4% is an upper bound on the number of vegans - the actual number could be considerably lower. 192.171.3.126 13:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Vegans. I can understand not wanting to cause undue suffering to animals, but if that's the reason for one's veganism, how does one feel about the eating habits of carnivores? Are lions murderers? and as far as the health concerns go, well, it seems like one has to have ample time and money to be able to maintain this diet without problems - also, if it's so healthy, why can I not think of any society in the history of the world that was 100% vegan? It seems to me that people should be concentrating more on advocating the responsible eating of meat - which would entail eating much less meat(in places where it is eaten not in moderation, like Chicago, for example)and ensuring that animals utilised by people are treated in a humane, respectful way. If you think that's a contradiction, well, a deer being eaten by a wolf is no less ethical than a clean shot from me (and I get a useful skin out of it). It just seems to me that if veganism were the dominant paradigm, which is what I assume vegans want, it would actually throw things just as out of balance as they already are. 76.173.124.88ModerateMeatEater
Keep in mind that talk pages are to talk about the article, NOT the subject of the article. And in general, no, most vegans disagree with eating meat because it's unnatural, not because it's inhumane. Although I don't think anyone is expecting civility out of a carnivore, I'd rather like to see it out of a land owner -- Phoeba Wright OBJECTION! 03:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The IPA pronunciation of "vegan" has been changed a bit, from [ˈviːgən] to [viːgən] ... from reading the IPA chart, it appears that the first is more correct than the second (since it indicates the "primary stress" is on the first bit), but I can't really tell if I'm reading everything correctly. Anybody? Kellen T 00:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I know the original and strict definition of veganism says that honey is not vegan. Nevertheless, some vegans eat honey and still consider themselves to be vegan. A recent edit to Vegetarianism tried to add this information. My impression is that wikipedia pages need to cover all viewpoints, and a significant subset of vegans do consume honey. I feel something to the effect "Although the original definition of veganism excluded honey and insect products, some vegans consider these to be vegan." should be added. some outside sources: http://www.veganmeat.com/honey.html and http://www.vegan.org/FAQs/index.html#7 -- Madeleine 18:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
The reason I found it necessary to edit the article to replace "dietary vegan" with "total vegetarians, strict vegetarians, or pure vegetarians" is that veganism is about a whole philosophy of life, not just a diet. Diet just happens to be an important aspect of this way of life. Calling a pure vegetarian a "dietary vegan" makes about as much sense as calling somebody that eats kosher foods a "dietary Jew." -Random Violin Guy 23:30, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
There's a big difference between calling yourself vegan, and actually being vegan. Joanne Stepaniak wrote a good essay on the name game: http://www.vegsource.com/jo/essays/namegame.htm . I still think the best way to get around all this labeling and reverting is to take that part out, and replace it with a description of the diet, rather than a name for it. These terms are too muddy for us to authoritatively use one or the other. -RandomViolinGuy 20:20, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
Some sources, such as airlines, treat vegan/strict vegetarian/pure vegetarian as one of the same. This should be noted on this article [1]. nirvana2013 19:49, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
The "possible limitations" that I had in place will either stay, or the studies will be removed. It's obvious that throwing in two studies by the same group of German researchers, on less than 100 participants (in the case of the first study, less than 30), with no mention of duration (and no mention of "vegan" in the second study) serves no purpose but to baselessly attack veganism. Find some peer-reviewed studies that can't be so easily criticized, allow the limitations to be added in, or remove the studies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kyle key ( talk • contribs) 16:31, August 6, 2006.
Luke, Homocysteine levels are inversely-related to B12. People with low blood B12 have elevated homocysteine levels, so effectively both are manifestations of the same problem, which is insufficient intake and/or absorption of dietary B12.
I have updated the entry about the study by Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin. I have tried to make it fair and neutral in tone, as I believe that their conclusion that meat is unhealthy, with regards to the diseases they cite, is based upon the studies they have included and should be in the article as their opinion as well as a generally accepted view. I think the entry is now more specific and conforms to NPOV. I would like to gain a consensus if User:Rotten still feels the entry should be reverted.
For details please see page 15 of Gidon Eshel and Pamela Martin's paper: "Meat-Eaters Aiding Global Warming?: New Research Suggests What You Eat as Important as What You Drive" - Solar 17:48, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Damn you hippies! Hempeater 03:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
A while back I tried unsuccessfully to defend the addition of a couple of external links that I thought were high quality and relevant. Since there are editors here who are super-strict about external links, can I call upon such editors to help me trim the massive list of external links in the Animal rights article? I have tried many times to trim that huge list of links to animal rights orgs. to a reasonable number, but SlimVirgin insists on keeping them all in, even though there exists an entire separate article devoted to that topic: List of animal rights groups. Thanks, - MichaelBluejay 14:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)
thie length of the article has now exceeded 51 kb so it should be tageed as very long.-- Lucy-marie 23:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
The tag needs to be clearly visible to all ediors, so that editors know the article may be getting out of control in length and requie pruning in certian areas. Adding the tag conforms to the MOS on article length.-- Lucy-marie 12:05, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Many people here and on google, say it is also a diet. The first sentence should change and include a dietary definition as well. -- fs 22:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
the problem is without any conclusion on that matter on the talk page the sentence remains and it was reverted to its previous state after I changed it to a "either a philosophy+diet etc. or a diet". --
fs
17:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Obtuse quote taken from criticism: Many health supplements (vitamins, minerals, herbal alternatives, etc.) are placed inside capsules made of animal-based gelatin [1] [2]. Though online retailers have emerged selling vegan alternatives to such products, and vegan-friendly multivitamins and supplements can now be found in most health food stores, it is legally available only in the developed world.
Huh? What is only available in the developed world? Can someone who understands this sentence rejig it a bit? Cheers! Mujinga 20:58, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
The difficulty section is not written well. I'm making it a Discussion section of it's own. ilsott
This article is good and overlong. I would suggest:
1 Moving more nutritional info to the vegan nutrition page
2 Sorting out the introduction, which is a bit unwieldy at present .. i would suggest moving the stats about us and uk vegans to its own section
I am happy to help with these changes, but I thought I would broach the subject here as I dont recall making any edits on this page before today .. Mujinga 21:04, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I have seen reference to the UK having low levels of iodine in the soil due to the last ice-age, this reference comes from the Vegan Society. I have recently contacted them to see where they got this information, I received the following reply: "According to Stephen Walsh PHD in his book 'Plant Based Nutrition and Health' (The Vegan Society, ISBN 0-907337-27-9) "The iodine content of plant foods depends on the iodine content of the soil, which varies greatly from one part of the world to another. Iodine in the soil is low in many areas, including most regions that were covered by ice during the last Ice Age". (p106)". I have not been able to find an independent reference that confirms this. Due to conversations I have had recently with scientists I am inclined to be sceptical, does anyone have a link to a scientific paper or other research that confirms that there are low levels of Iodine in the UK soil. Thanks - Solar 08:36, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, I dont have access to the full article. -- Mig77 (t) 10:26, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
In the next major edit/reworking of the page, could an attempt be made at providing a more balanced perspective? I have nothing against veganism, but this reads like a "20 Reasons You Should Be Vegan" article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Erdrickgr ( talk • contribs)
I have added a citation request regarding the reference to Hinduism. As far as I am aware most Hindus eat cheese, yoghurt and ghee/clarified butter ( lacto vegetarianism). To include their reference under veganism seems unnecessary, and even misleading. nirvana2013 19:07, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
Nope, didn't miss it. I was hoping for a balanced treatment, not "Section 1: Be Vegan, it's cool," and then an added "Section 2: Don't be vegan, you'll cause birth defect and other bad stuff". It's as though the article is written by two seperate people/groups. Which I guess might be accurate.
Veganism is indirectly implied by the requirement that Hindus should only eat satvic foods. Since cows are not treated to Hindu standards in western society, most if not all dairy products are unsuitable for Hindus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satvic
Modern days Hindus, like myself, have incorporated veganism as an extension of the philosophy of ahinsa (non-violence).
I have removed the sentence "It must be pointed out that vitamin B12, in a form usable by humans, only occurs in animals." which was added today. Since B12 is available in fortified foods and in (vegan) tablet form, the statement clearly is not true. It would be more accurate to say that plants do not contain B12, but in my view the article already made this clear.-- Michig 12:40, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
"Since B12 is available in fortified foods and in (vegan) tablet form." Um, where exactly are you thinking that B12 is coming from? It's either coming from animal products, or human feces, both of which aren't vegan. Bacteria are not plants. - MSTCrow 21:58, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
The fact is that the statement "vitamin B12, in a form usable by humans, only occurs in animals" is false, and seriously misleading (it suggests that being truly vegan is impossible). Perhaps there is a misconception here that bacteria, if they are not plants, are necessarily animals. Actually, bacteria are neither plants nor animals. David Olivier 07:43, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the section stating that B-12 is synthesized in the colons of humans and other animals. While it is true, it is misleading in the extreme. We can dispense with the "other animals", as it is not pertinant to the discussion (unless vegans will eat cow poo ;). As for humans, yes, bacteria in the colon do produce B12, which then goes in the toilet -- your body does NOT absorb any of it. One study had vegans consuming capsules containing the B12 extracted from their own stools, which worked, but is, in my POV, quite gross. I'm guessing they were college students... :) Mdbrownmsw 17:19, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Hello Skinwalker, do you have a cite for your claim? Countless studies refer to findings using both "found, suggest and show". show, shown, shown, found, found, suggest and found. Even this: Thousands of scientific studies document this. The Dr. is not referring to comparison study, interesting language.-- Scribner 00:32, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Tagged "disputed" because of the three claims in the first paragragh I read were pov, all three claims are false. I haven't checked the entire section, yet. I checked this paragragh at random. Don't remove the tag until a check is done. Here's the paragraph:
"Related studies note the importance of early recognition of significant maternal vitamin B12 deficiency during pregnancy and lactation in vegetarians is emphasized so that appropriate supplementation can be given and irreversible neurologic damage in the infant prevented.[37] Critics also point to studies which show that a Vegetarian diet is linked to genital defects.[38] They also cite that a vegan diet carries an increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke.[39]"
Two sentences are lies, one, the last is ridiculous misrepresentation.-- Scribner 04:19, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't recall when the last time I was on this article was, but god damn folks, what happened? The article at least used to look half-way decent. Now it's so filled with tags and prose (unwikified, unsourced pov nonsense) that I don't know what they hell's been going on. The hell of it all is, most of the text in the top half seems to be precisely the same. I don't mean to just complain, but I don't want to get myself too-far into this article again. Nothing good came out of it last time was. That said, is there anything small that I can do to help? Give me a message if y'all ever need an outside voice on it; I know how helpful that can be sometimes. Two-three people get so wrapped up in arguing over an article, they forget everything else, and that's no good. It almost seems like this article could be better if it were entirely re-written, from the ground-up. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
It looks to me like the two big problems with length are the Nutrition section (which is more sepcific than the main article Vegan nutrition, and two widely-unsourced & unwikified sections, Criticism & Controversy and "Levels of Adherance". Both of these sections at least need to be organized better.
I'm off for tonight, but I'd suggest moving the bulk (meaning all of the subsections) of the Vegan Nutrition section over to their main article, and having at most a one-sentence mention of each vitamin/mineral/chemical/whatever. What do others thing of the nutrition plan? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:38, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
"In conclusion, an inhibitory effect of SAH on whole-genome methylation was found, but from our data no interaction between vegetarian lifestyle and DNA methylation could be determined.
This is another B12 deficiency study. The study does NOT support the section, not at all.-- Scribner 16:32, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
OK, Idleguy, you cherry-picked this: "low-fat vegan diet is the increased risk of hemorrhagic (vessel rupture leading to bleeding) stroke."
"Although a low-saturated-fat vegan diet may markedly reduce risk for coronary heart disease, diabetes, and many common cancers, the real Achilles heel of the low-fat vegan diet is the increased risk of hemorrhagic (vessel rupture leading to bleeding) stroke. Apparently the atherosclerotic (plaque building) process that creates a local vascular environment favorable to coronary thrombosis (clot) and intravascular embolism (traveling clot) may be protecting the fragile blood vessels in the brain from rupture under years of stress from high blood pressure. Admittedly, hemorrhagic stroke is a very small percentage of the deaths in modern countries. It still is worth noting that if strict vegetarians are to have the potential to maximize their lifespan, it is even more important they avoid a high salt intake because salt intake increases blood pressure. Almost all of the soy based meat analogues and many other health food store (vegan) products are exceptionally high in sodium." [9]
Davis does not seem to be disputing that vegan lifestyles prevents unnecessary death of animals. Maybe this wording is just misleading. To me, it looks more like Davis is saying that even though Dietary Veganism may lead toward the prevention of some death, it does not address the fact that industrialized crop production kills animals and insects as well. What do you all think?
Is it really neccessary to have two different quotes? It looks like the first quote is half of a thought, and the second quote is a full thought. Could we not rephrase it to be:
I don't have the page in front of me, but something along those lines. What do you all think? File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:57, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
I would like to bring this to everyone's attention. User:Scribner is accusing me for mentioning his name in the edit summary. My edit summary was "rm tag inserted by Scribner. See Wikipedia:Disputed statement. sourced statements citing studies aren't dubious." I hardly find any personal attacks there. If using one's username in edit summary if it is considered as personal attacks then any summaries like "rv edits by User:xyz to version by User:123" would also be considered as an attack.
I merely used his username since I wanted to point out the editor who added that tag. Further I have gone and added another journal as a source for the genital/birth defect issue. I find that the said user is taking this personally and trying to start a personal attack for edits. If the "Dr. Fuhrman" issue is controversial, I have no issues that until a few others have a source on the link between haemmorhage and vegetarianims is proved, it need not be readded. But to brand someone as "by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic." is a blatant attempt to humiliate someone. Idleguy 07:22, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi everyone. I think that we should be very clear about claims we make, and qualify all of them. Let's get one thing clear: A Vegetable is indeed vegetarian, but it is nto a specifically vegetarian food. Most humans, being omnivores, eat vegetables. When we make claims about vegetables grown as part of modern industrial agriculture which makes use of pesticides, we should be clear that we are talking about vegetables which are grown with modern industrial agricultural techniques including the use of pesticides and other chemicals.
Omnivores consume the same fruit and vegetables, and suffer from the same health concerns. The problem here is with spraying pesticides on the crop, not with vegetarianism. For example:
Here, the point is that pesticide residue and phytoestrogens can be dangerous if consumed in large amounts. If we insist on using this source, perhaps we could say:
If not that exact wording, that idea. The point of the BBC article, is:
The entire Criticisms & controversy section is riddled with misleading facts like this, impropperly qualified, if at all, and quotes taken out of context. I fear I shall have to go through each one individually. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
All of the health claims made in the criticism section, such as:
should be qualified, to make clear that the risk factor only comes into play when said vegetarian women do not obtain adequate nutrients. Otherwise, we are being misleading, and doing readers a disservice. And if we are going to make many claims like this, we must qualify every one. Otherwise we run the risk of misquoting, and misleading. When we quote sources, we must be sure to preserve the context which the quote was originally in. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm questioning a source here, again. The National Cattleman's Beef Association's sponsored African study, referenced in the Health crticisms section. Should we really be presenting information from such an obviously partisan organization? Granted they didn't conduct the study themselves, but they were a major financial backer, and influenced the results. Excuse me for questioning aspects of the article more than I am actively contributing to it. I just don't usually see articles with this much criticism. I think that Wikipedia articles are meant to present a neutral view of an article, not volleys back and forth. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 08:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Reposted from Wikipedia:Reliable sources#Self-publishedsources
A self-published source is a published source that has not been subject to any form of independent fact-checking, or where no one stands between the writer and the act of publication. It includes personal websites, and books published by vanity presses. Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, and then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Exceptions to this may be when a well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material. In some cases, these may be acceptable as sources, so long as their work has been previously published by credible, third-party publications, and they are writing under their own name or known pen-name and not anonymously.
However, editors should exercise caution for two reasons: first, if the information on the professional researcher's blog (or self-published equivalent) is really worth reporting, someone else will have done so; secondly, the information has been self-published, which means it has not been subject to any independent form of fact-checking.
Reports by anonymous individuals, or those without a track record of publication to judge their reliability, do not warrant citation at all, until such time as it is clear that the report has gained cachet, in which case it can be noted as a POV.
I believe we may have many references which should not be in the article. I have not read through all of our 40-50-some-odd references. I have seen a few. I'd like to hear what others have to say. The following may not be reliable sources, based on the above policy.
This post is only to resolve a confusion in the lead para and not to be mistaken as singling out/attacking anyone. In this edit, User:Kellen` removed "almost all" stating that in theory they commit to abstaining from all of them. But the article line begins with "In practice, a vegan..." So if the abstention is in theory, the the article ought to reflect that, or if it is in practice, then "almost all" should be readded. Idleguy 12:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Should I attempt to rectify the ambiguity of the sentence by removing "in practice" or are there better suggestions for phrasing? Kellen T 16:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Mdbrownmsw and I appear to be reading the same information in totally different ways.
My version:
Also in 2002, the UK Food Standards Agency reported that 5% of respondents self-identified as vegetarian or vegan. Of that 5%, 29% said they avoided "all animal products."<ref name="Food Standards Agency"/>
Mdbrownmsw's:
Also in 2002, the UK Food Standards Agency reported that 5% of respondents self-identified as vegetarian or vegan. Though 29% of that 5% said they avoided "all animal products" only 5% reported avoiding dairy. Based on these figures, approximately 0.25% or less of the UK population follow a vegan diet.<ref name="Food Standards Agency">{{cite web| url = http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/ndnsprintedreport.pdf| title = National Diet and Nutrition Survey| accessdate = 2006-11-06| work = Food Standards Agency}}</ref> <!-- See page 23, 95% said they ate dairy, so, at most, 5% of 5% (0.25%) are vegans. -->
Besides the fact that he has introduced a second citaiton which appears earlier in the article, I assert that he is incorrectly reading the data. Page 23 of the report has a table with the following:
Table 2.9: Types of food avoided by respondents who said they were vegetarian or vegan
Those who said they were vegetarian or vegan | Percentages |
---|---|
Types of food avoided | all |
Red meat | 100 |
White meat | 92 |
Fish | 48 |
Eggs | 21 |
Milk | 5 |
Other dairy products (e.g. butter/cheese) | 10 |
All animal products | 29 |
Other | 7 |
Base, number of vegetarian or vegan respondents* | 106 |
Note: * Percentages add to more than 100 as some respondents reported avoiding more than one type of food.
Mdbrownmsw's edits reflect (I think) a reading of this table as saying "only 5 percent avoided milk" and therefore "95 percent are not vegan." I believe he has mis-read the data to be exclusive when it is actually inclusive, and provides no additional information about those not explicitly included in each group. That is; some of the 29 percent who marked that they "avoid all animal products" may also have marked that they avoid red and white meat, eggs, dairy, etc or they might have only marked that they avoided all animal products.
I would like some other readings of this data since it makes a significant difference in the possible percentage of vegans. Kellen T 13:10, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I went through the cite given, i.e. this one. He actually says he went vegan in 1990 and not prior to the world record breaking Olympics in 1988 seoul. and his "best year" came as he says later in the article 1991. Maybe he personally thought it was his best year but actually he had performed better in 84 and 88 olympics when he wasn't vegan, atleast not according to what he says. And there have also been accusations of his drug abuse. See Carl_Lewis#Drug_accusations so comparing him with Ben Jonson is also pointless. So i've reworded it to what is actually in the source. Idleguy 19:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Since the link apparently is considered spam, here are more for cleanup, if anyone is so inclined: Linksearch: *.brook.com/veg/ -- Femto 11:58, 26 November 2006 (UTC), Wikipedia:WikiProject Spam
Wouldn't it make sense to consolidate the bare-bones "List of Vegans" article into this main page and re-title the section "Famous Vegans" or "Notable Vegans"? I realize space is a consideration, but a list of notable adherents is usually pretty standard on pages dealing with a particular philosophy or lifestyle. Atlantawiki 01:21, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have added a source (Vegan Society) for the statement that supplements are recommended for vegans. I removed the section stating that supplements are recommended for everyone, vegan and non-vegan alike, because the source cited did not state that IN RELATION TO VEGANS. Per WP:OR "the only way to demonstrate that you are not doing original research is to cite reliable sources that provide information directly related to the topic of the article, and to adhere to what those sources say". Mdbrownmsw 15:22, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
to Mdbrownmsw: i removed the contradiction tag for a couple of reasons:
thanks! frymaster 07:22, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the following: "The evidence is overwhelming that vegetarians have lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease, and that non-meat eating reduces all-cause mortality by 50%.[20]"
Actually, the source cited (which is not "overwhelming evidence", nor does it claim such evidence exists) says, in reviewing previous results:
"it was suggested that the exclusion of meat from the diet might result in a 15–25% reduction in risk for ischemic heart disease."
Then, it's study results: "These large reductions in the apparent effect of diet group may be because the healthy volunteer effect was more pronounced in the vegetarian subjects, who were likely to have been more strongly motivated and, therefore, generally healthier than the nonvegetarian subjects at recruitment. It is also likely that there was some crossover among diet groups during the first 5 y of the study, which would dilute the apparent benefits of a meatless diet."
Finally, this article is about veganism, not vegetarianism. The study found NO IMPACT WHATSOEVER accross several mortality rates for fish eaters, who are, of course, not vegans. Mdbrownmsw 19:59, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
This article is great. It perfectly sums up what vegans stand for and the downsides to this lifestyle choice. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vegen8tor ( talk • contribs) 21:17, 8 December 2006 (UTC).
Editors may be interested in Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 December 8#Template:Pet Species. Please keep the discussion to the encyclopedic merits of the template, not ideology. — coelacan talk — 15:33, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
This report from the UN might be of interest here, as well as at Environmental vegetarianism. It's about the UN's conclusions on the environmental impact of livestock. File:Icons-flag-scotland.png Canæn File:Icons-flag-scotland.png 02:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to encourage the regular editors of this page to please always use an appropriate citation template when adding references. This is usually {{ cite journal}} or {{ cite web}}. Most of the article is properly cited in this fashion and it would be nice (structurally, visually and functionally) to have it consistent. Kellen T 18:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
I was looking for more information on the different levels of veganism, I was wondering if someone who knew about the subject could add a section on what each level means. JW 00:09, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Skinwalker, what criticism was removed? It looks like you just reverted a response to criticism. (Note that I'm not involved/invested in whatever's been going on in that section.) -- Joe haer 05:46, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
further on that subject there doesn't seem to be much criticism of veganism in this page at all. just the ethical crit. portion and a few bits about how to avoid health problems. there are many more arguments against veganism that just a few paltry health concerns and some abstract ethical arguments. where the comprehensive criticism section that appears in almost every other article on these sorts of subjects? furthermore much of the information quoted in this article specifically refers to vegetarian diets, and does not necessarily carry over to a vegan diet. for example: vegetarian diets are linked to higher IQ, vegan diets however are linked to lower IQ. this fact is listed in the vegetarian article, but curiously omitted here. in short the article is poorly constructed and badly biased. its set up to say as few bad things about veganism as possible, as opposed to offering a balanced/objective look at the subject. 24.185.239.254 20:18, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
There is not much crtisism of Veganism because there are very few things negative associated to being Vegan. It is good for the environment and one's health. What is there to critisize?
Scientific studies about the vegan diet are welcome, but the section on the study funded by the American Cattlemen's Association is very misleading. If one had read the study or even the critical articles in the news about it (no, not the ones where the Beatle comments - he's not a scientist), one would find that the study is an almost comically biased ploy to promote beef consumption and make meat eaters feel better about themselves. The children in the study had diets consisting mainly of corn and some beans - hardly what someone who chooses a vegan diet would eat. Some groups received mince, others milk, and others oil - and some of these already malnourished children received nothing - to supplement the "diet", all with the same caloric value, but without the other nutrients in the meat. Supplemented soya mince could have been used and compared to the beef; instead, there was a gaping hole in the diets of the "meat-free" groups. This does not apply to veganism in any way. The only thing this study suggests is that when starving, malnourished children get ANY food with vitamins they aren't already getting, they are healthier. Well, duh.
Instead of trying to hold a candle to the vegan movement, we should be questioning the ethics of those who would use impoverished children as tools to promote food products. They withheld food from groups of children in this study - living people - knowing it would stunt their physical and mental growths and perhaps deny them much-needed opportunities in life. These people have no right to call vegans "unethical."
That said, I'm a new wikipedia user (and a very long-time reader), so I would rather the section be removed by a more experienced user, so as not to appear I am vandalizing. I would very much appreciate input on this. Noxic 22:51, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to re-add the section because it was published by an author employed by a reputable institution; the study's backers were identified in our article; a reply to the study was offered by the BDA. Kellen T 17:52, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Saw this on Newsnight last week ethical man kills turkey as he believes people should see the animals they eat being killed. then goes on a month long vegan diet to find out what difference cutting animal products from his diet would make to "carbon footprint".
carbon-guru Professor Tim Jackson calculates that 18% of the carbon emissions created by the average diet are from meat and a further 10% are from dairy products. only counting carbon dioxide would be a woeful underestimate no-one has calculated the contribution methane and nitrous oxide emissions make to the climate cost of the food meaties eat. he it is safe to double the figure for carbon dioxide which means 60% of the global warming potential of the average diet is from animal products.
Just something interesting to chew over for Veganism meet daisy the cow Whackorobin 07:23, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
This is rather one sided. Just from reading the opening paragraph, it seems like everyone who is a vegan is automatically a card carrying PETA supporter. Vegan doesn't nessicerily mean someone who avoids animal products all together, although some might, just one who doesn't have any animal products *in their food*. Unless someone can support the original view, i'm going to change this -- feb talk 04:35, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I am rather reluctant to bring this issue up, but the issue of vegan IQ is misrepresented in the article. Vegans actually scored the lowest in the paper IQ in childhood and vegetarianism in adulthood: 1970 British cohort study. There are of course numerous problems with this study, firstly vegans were actually only 0.1% of the study sample, which in my view is far too low to get an accurate average, and secondly there are numerous problems with the cultural biasing of IQ tests. In my opinion it is unfortunate that many vegetarian groups feel it is useful to draw on this kind of study as a piece of propaganda. I will change the entry to reflect the issues with the sample size and the actual vegan IQ levels reported. - Solar 15:08, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the statement that "all unshellaced fruits are vegan" is untrue, and ridiculous. A fruit that had been covered with whale oil is no more vegan than a fruit covered in insect lac. Further, materials not made from insect lac, are often referred to as shellac, anyway, despite not fitting the exact definition of shellac. Can't we just have a picture of fruit and say "fruit is vegan?" Huh? this is ridiculous the way it is, and sound like something a non-vegan would say to try and convince people that vegans are obsessed with minutia and are petty.-- Nomenclator 17:10, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
yes, veganism is sometimes described as strict vegetarianism. But that is NOT precisely what veganism is. The claim that it is is a popular myth, not a fact. To be accurate, an encyclopedia should tell us what something is not what something is known as. The later sentences in the article even acknowledge that veganism is much more than strict veganism. And that fact should be emphasised, not obscured. I propose we drop the part about "known as." And change the first sentence to something more like "Veganism is a philosophy and lifestyle that involves the avoidence of using animals and animal products for food, clothing and other purposes." In that sentence I've also fixed a grammatical problem of subject predicate agreement in number. Further down, we should add that "veganism is more than strict vegetarianism..." Do we want to tell the facts or do we simply want to propogate popular myths?
Also, adherent is too formal a word for someone who simply practices veganism. Yes, veganism has its adherents. But the word is still too formal. Beubg a vegan doesn't require any kind of announcement or proposal of adherence. So it has adherence to it, but saying it has adherents is too formal. The term should not be part of its definition.
I am going to persist on the subject of testing on animals, too. Find be a good citation for this being a fact, and I'll let it stay. Otherwise, I want it changed. -- Nomenclator 13:10, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I thought I was using the indent properly. Hyperflux wrote "I have frequently encountered people who use those terms in order to explain veganism to non-vegetarians more easily." That suggests that the terms are oversimplifications. Vegans are strict vegetarians, but they are much more than that. All vegans are strict vegetarians, but not all strict vegetarians are vegan. Period. That is why the terms should not be interchanged without further explanation. A vegan is a kind of strict vegetarian who 1. is a vegetarian for reasons of avoiding harm to animals (as opposed to primarily for his/her own better health or primarily for any other reason), and 2. Carries their avoidance of harm to animals to all aspects of their life, as far as they themselves evaluate as reasonably possible. Which brings us to the subject of "pure" vegans. Equating pure vegans with all vegans gives people the impression that we are obcessed with minutia. Indeed, this is a frequent characteristic of vegans, including myself. However it is not part of the definition of vegan. It also makes us seem petty. Frankly, I am trying to avoid being "penny wise and pound foolish" even though my natural tendency is to be penny wise and pound foolish - searching for every drop of gelatin, or inquiring of one manufacturer after another whether the stearic acid at the end of an ingredient list, is animal or vegetable in origin. It we spend so much time on details like this - which I admit I personally love to do, even tho I am improving in this regard and doing it less - we miss the big picture, and we have less time for presenting the big picture to others. For example if in the past I had worried about the fraction of a millimeter of gelatin covering my photographic film, I could not have shown dozens of people photos of my wonderful vegan garden, and impress them with how impressive it was. I tended to obsess about it, but I eventually made a decision for just myself, personally, that it wasn't worth obsessing about the few milligrams of gelatin, and that showing the pictures would do more good. That is not the same as saying I buy Jell-o - which I estimate contains 100 if not thousands of times as much gelatin as a roll of 35 mm film.-- Nomenclator 18:57, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it's very important for this page to examine the environmental implications of vegan farming. I have been writing a personal examination of "Veganism and Agricultural Efficiency" which looks at aspects such as energy transference in food chains and land area required to support vegan diets compared to animal based diets, but it is currently nowhere near encyclopaedia standard.
I am especially interested in the food chain angle. The transference of energy from one level of a food chain to the next involves a 90% loss of energy, according to the ecological pyramid.
It makes far greater sense (in terms of logic, efficiency and productivity) for humans to be the primary consumer in their food chain than to massively reduce efficiency by adding cattle or other animals into the food chain and consequently become secondary consumers.
If anyone has any ideas on how to bring this angle to Wikipedia, I'd be happy to discuss it in detail.
Hyperflux 11:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the section about some vegans avoiding toothpaste with calcium from bone sources and whatever. This are minutia that may be interest to vegans having a discussion with each other about exactly how far to go, in being vegan, but is not of interest to the general public and does not belong in an encyclopedia article. -- Nomenclator 01:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the part about excess soy being harmful. It is totally irrelevant. Many vegans use very little soy. Some use absolutely none. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nomenclator ( talk • contribs) 01:23, 13 February 2007 (UTC).
"soy is a very common ingredient in vegan cuisine"
Sorry English is not my native language but I am trying my best to correct myths about veganism that are not true. I hope you will please correct my english but leave the facts that are true the way I said they are to be true.
I also like to note that The American Vegan Society was founded in 1960 and has been in continuous power since then and is the most important vegan org in the united states and probably in the whole all the americas. It has publishes a quarterly magazine, Ahimsa, for about 44 of those years that it is now renamed the American Vegan since the last few years. The connection between ahimsa in the east and veganism has been mentioned by writers such Albert Sweitzer and Leo Tolstoy.
Whiel Vegan Outreach has been very influential, it owes much to those that have gone before. Jay and Freya Dinshah and the American Vegan Society are really the founding parents of the vegan movement in the US. there is absolutely no doubt about that. The people at Vegan Outreach will themselves tell you that. -- Tonguebutcher 01:51, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Nomenclator 12:52, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
Vegan majority or vegan leadership: which defines the truth about veganism?
While veganism has always been an informal development, it has also always had a strong leadership. People are not adherants to what the leadership says. They are simply educated by the leadership, and perhaps also gently guided by the leadership. Thus, comes the question is a vegan what the majority of people who say they are vegan, is; or is a vegan what the leadership says veganism is; or is it somewhere inbetween. It is certainly not the first choice. Because many people who claim to be vegan, are clearly not. There are 1000's of people who say they don't use dairy or eggs - but in actuality really use them.
This goes to my claim that vegans only occasionally avoid products that are "tested on animals." My claim keeps getting erased, but without any citation to back it up. The fact is, while a few vegans eschew products tested on animals, the vegan leadership does not require that one do so, in order to define the person as a vegan. I have already cited the american vegan society re this. Yet my claim keeps getting reverted. Also my claim that veganism sprouts from ahimsa and eastern thought or owes a debt to eastern thought, keeps getting erased, despite the fact that I have provided citation for my claim, and there has been no citation for the obverse claim other than that Vegan Outreach better represents veganims than the Am erican Vegan Society. But they did not cite source for this claim, and I cited the much longer existence and history of publications of the Am Vegan Society. Even so, Vegan outreach does not say my claim is untrue. And vegan outreach acknowledges the work done by the Am VEgan Society.
I think we have a conspiracy here to promote popular myths about veganism, rather than the truth, about veganism. -- Nomenclator 13:03, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
All, most, many, or some. At first it was claimed all. Now the article says most. In my opinion, unless you can cite specif reliable source that indicates that more than 50% avoid products that have been tested, it is best to say that "some" vegans avoid products that have been tested on animals. Indeed, some take veganism to this extreme. I might myself, if I had more time and money to spend on tedious research. But I don't think most do. I have heard many vegans say they simply can't afford the higher prices that are usually charged for products labeled as being not being tested on animals. And again, if you are going to eschew products that have been tested on animals, you are going to be eschewing most prescription drugs, and many non-prescription drugs, and all of the new drugs developed in the last 25 to 50 years, since which time governments have required testing, by law. This includes ibuprofen, humulin, Nexium, Lyrica, gabapentin, diphenhydramine, oxycodone (but not morhpine), hydrocodone (but not codeine), birth control pills, synthetic steroids (to relieve asthma, allergies), drugs used to relieve too much urine, too little urine, drugs used to relieve sore eyes, to control herpes, all antibiotics, drugs used to anesthesize people for surgery. Or are you going to avoid just cosmetics that have been tested on animals, but be willing to take prescription drugs? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nomenclator ( talk • contribs) 19:14, 17 February 2007 (UTC).
Most vegans refrain from supporting industries that use animals directly or indirectly, such as circuses and zoos, and will not use products that are tested on animals.
Although vegans are against animal testing, some feel that boycotting all animal tested products is currently impractical or impossible, especially in medical areas, where many life-saving drugs are tested on animals. Vegans refrain from supporting industries that use animals directly, such as circuses and zoos.
Please present a citation that shows that vegans are more susceptible to vitamin A deficiency, or remove the sentence or sentences that makes this claim. There is no support of this idea anywhere, as far as I know. It is mere speculation.
I am trying to bring this article out of the swamp of repetition of absurd rumors, and popular mythology. -- Nomenclator 16:44, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed the part about vegans being in danger of a vitamin A deficiency. The source cited for this, http://www.purifymind.com/NutritionalVege.htm, is not a reliable source. This is someone at a company, Nutrition International Company, perhaps selling vitamin supplements, not someone you would rely on to have a neutral point of view. Please find a peer-reviewed study if you want to return this claim. All the info I have seen shows that beta-carotene, the chemical most frequently found, and found in abundance, in plant material, is easily converted into retinol, except by a few people with rare metabolic disorders. Further, beta-carotene is in such huge abundance in yellow and green vegetables that anyone who eats even a fraction of the recommended number of servings is sure to get much more carotene than they need. Vegans tend to eat more vegetables than many non vegans. Also, once converted to retinol, retinol is stored for long periods of time, so you do not need to eat vegetables every day to get sufficient retinol into storage. That source was just ridiculous. In any case the article cited does not say that vegans are at risk of vit a deficiency. It says that "Some individuals with adequate intake of beta-carotene [emphasis mine] experienced vitamin A deficiency because consumption of insufficient amount of fat together with carotene-rich vegetables, and dietary deficiencies in iron and zinc. Thus, vegetarians are urged to consume dark colored leafy vegetables with some fat, also inactivated yeasts, spices, peas..." Vegetarians and vegans are likely to be consuming leafy greens, and fat. In re to leafy greens, more so than average.-- Nomenclator 14:06, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Acc to Dr. William Harris, from The Scientific Basis of Vegetarianism, on the web here, http://www.vegsource.com/harris/sci_basis/CHAP1.pdf avail from page here http://www.vegsource.com/harris/book_contents.htm
"Beta-carotene is usually called pro-vitamin A and retinol is called "Vitamin A". I believe this is an error on the part of the nutritional establishment. Two molecules of retinol, an essential hormone-like metabolite required for skin, vision, and reproduction, are formed in the body by enzymatically splitting one molecule of beta-Carotene, a photosynthetic plant pigment interacting with chlorophyll and found in green leafy vegetables. This being so retinol fails the definition of vitamin. Beta-carotene should be called the true Vitamin A. It is synthesized only by plants. Retinol is synthesized only by animals, but there can be no retinol in the animal kingdom unless somewhere in the food chain there is an animal eating plant beta-Carotene.
-- Nomenclator 17:10, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
I'm glad you agree with me but that's not what I said.-- Nomenclator 00:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
It is controversial. It is better to avoid using the misleading term "vitamin" altogether and use organic micronutrient, co-enzyme. -- Nomenclator 00:56, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
"In a recent laboratory study, 60% of the strict vegan participants' B12 and iron levels were compromised, as compared with the lacto- or lacto-ovo-vegetarian participants (who were able to acquire vitamin B12 from these animal sources).[46]"
I'm removing this from the article:
Because my reading of the abstract seems to indicate that these counts were used to diagnose B12 deficiency, which has already been mentioned and cited by this study. If this is wrong, somebody can add the sentence back in; it uses the "vegparameters" reference. Kellen T 06:52, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
This part of the article is suspect:
The first sentence cites a BBC news source, but even inside that article the study is criticized as being flawed (by not including what men ate, since men determine the gender of a child). The second sentence cites the weston a. price foundation, which has been criticized (notorious?) for railing against vegetarian diets, without the WAP foundation citing any other source. Kellen T 12:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree this is sketcy too. One study. And it didn't even postulate anything about the sex of the fathers, even tho we know that sex is largely determined by sperm characteristics and not egg characteristics. Are veg mothers more likely to get knocked up by veg men than non-veg mothers? Or do veg mothers have a prediliction for flesh-eating fathers? Maybe it is the diet of the fathers that affected the outcome? Too much conjecture and not enough fact. Drop the whole thing.
-- Nomenclator 00:35, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I think the section on hypospadias should be removed. The citation isn't very convincing. Diet was based on answers to survey, not observation. The comment "As vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens than do omnivores" is not supported with citation. Vegetarians often consume more dairy products than people with a "standard" diet. We don't know that it isn't hormones in dairy products that caused hypospadias. Vegan diet is often different than a typical vegetarian diet. The article has too many assumptions to be at all useful. Even if it wasn't, I would need to see more than one study. The cited study should suggest further reasearch. It does not produce enough resulte to draw any conclusions. I should add that the grammar is wrong in, and affects the meaning of, the following sentence fragment: "...phytoestrogens, found in soya products, nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues." The fragment tells us that phytoestrogens are found in nutrient deficiencies and found in exposure to pesticde residues. The error could be fixed by changing the punctuation, but I recommend that the entire sentence simply be removed. Uness someone can point to additional studies that produce the same results.
-- Nomenclator 17:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
-- Nomenclator 12:50, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
No one seems to object so I am going to make the above changes.-- Nomenclator 19:21, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The person was right to add leather and wool. I think the details he-she included were too much for the introductory paragraph. There is no controvery among vegans as to the idea that, ideally, products such as leather and wool should not be used, and to the idea that sometimes, in order to be pragmatic, and live well, things can't go precisely according to ideals, and leather and wool may be acceptable where alternatives are much more expensive, difficult to find, or even non-existant. Fur is usually considered totally off limits, as are ostentatious leather garments. -- Nomenclator 19:20, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Similar topics are found in the "health claims," and in the "nutrition" section. Probably these 2 sections should be made into one section with perhspa 2 subsections, and the sentences re-organized. The way the markup code and text is, this is going to be difficult to do. It is hard to find what you are looking for, in the editing screens. -- Nomenclator 19:44, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
there is a "health" subsection under the motivations section. Then, there is another section, a main section, called health effects. Some way to merge these into one, should be found. Perhaps the motivations section should be limited to just listing the motivations, then separate sections for going into pros and cons of health, environment, etc, should be made.-- Nomenclator 20:09, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
I moved things around to try and get better organization of topics. I did not remove anything during these list few edits.-- Nomenclator 20:36, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
If you found some problems can't you just fix them, instead of reverting the whole thing? I don't see where the problems are. It looked good to me. I made a separate section for what were previously subsections of Motivations. Then I made a small motivations section that just listed the motivations, instead of going into detail. I don't see the problem. Organization of topics can never be perfect. I think my changes, tho not perfect, were an improvement, rather than something that made the article worse. -- Nomenclator 22:01, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Skinwalker can you please wait till i'm finished re-ordering the sections, before you revert them? I'm having trouble doing it all in one edit. So I am moving one section at a time, since it is hard to see how the format looks, when looking at the editing window. Then I am checking to see if things turn up in the place I expected, or not. Sometimes this will make the order temporarily worse. -- Nomenclator 02:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I know it's not perfect, but I think it is better than it was before. I've got all the b12 risks in one unbroken segment. I've separated vegan benefits from vegan risks. I removed a sentence about veganism and pregnancy that duplicates information abt veganism pregnancy mentioned earlier. If I bungled some stuff, can you please try to improve it, rather than revert it? -- Nomenclator 03:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps the ethical criticisms section should be moved up near to, or sub to, ethics, with an added section for ethical pros. In other words and ethics section with ethical pro subsection and ethical con subjection. Or better choice of words for pro and con.-- Nomenclator 03:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I would suggest changing this to
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect. The authors of the study hypothesized that perhaps this is a result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or that it may be due to nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues.
Whaddayathink? -- Nomenclator 03:40, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect, and the authors of the study hypothesized that perhaps this is a result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or that it may be due to nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues.
Or like this:
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect hypothesized by the authors of the study as perhaps being the result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or as perhaps being the consequence of nutrient deficiencies, or of exposure to pesticide residues.
There is always more than one way to say something. I generally try to do my best to find the way of saying something that I think will make it easiest for readers to grasp. It is often easiest to grasp things when they are presented in small steps, rather than dumped on you all at once. Hence, several smaller sentences instead of one sentence with dependent clauses.
-- Nomenclator 14:16, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
A study has shown that boys born to vegetarian mothers were more likely to suffer from hypospadias, a genital defect. While a specific cause has not been isolated, the authors of the study hypothesized that perhaps this is a result of maternal diet, specifically, consumption of soy products (which contain substantial levels of phytoestrogens), or that it may be due to nutrient deficiencies, or exposure to pesticide residues. Further research into the exact causes is necessary.
Weston A. Price has a well known bias against vegetarianism. It is a less than ideal source. Much like quoting from notmilk.com.
Perhaps we should be quoting the references used by the Weston A. Price foundation to make their statements? I am thinking specifically wrt the article on soy and puberty. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 20:57, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Many, if not most, vegans, do not view the fact that they do not eat flesh, dairy products, or eggs, as "abstaining" from them. The term abstain implies some kind of innate desire or need that is voluntarily being thwarted. In actuality, vegans, especially long-time vegans, and life-long vegans, don't even think about the things that are missing. Would you say that most people in North America "abstain" from eating insects, or would you simply say that they just don't usually eat insects? Do various Chinese nationalities abstain from dairy products, or are such products simply not part of their culture?
This includes my own point of view. I don't abstain from animal products. It just doesn't generally occur to me to buy any. I have little need to read ingredient labels and "abstain" from products with animal ingredients as I make most of my food from scratch. I buy single-ingredient items, not prepared foods. I make my own "frozen dinners." This means I barely have to think of having to "avoid" anything. I buy dry legumes, not canned. I don't obsess over the source of things present in minute amounts, like the vitamins added to flour or rice.
For example make almost all my food from things I buy such as dry legumes, wheat flour, rye flour, fresh or frozen vegetables and fruits. When I had land, I also grew many of my own fruits and vegetables. It simply does not occur to me to buy the flesh, bones, or organs, eggs, or secretions of vertebrate or invertebrate animals. I don't "abstain" from these. I barely even think about them, much less abstain from them.
-- Nomenclator 13:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
While stearic acid and other fatty acids are a possible "ingredient" in soap, fatty acids are also used to make soap, which can be made by chemically reacting a fatty acid with lye. There are 2 ways to make soap, the traditional method of saponifying a fat with a strong alkalai, to produce soap and glycerine, or the modern factory method of first separating a fat into individual fatty acids, then saponifying each fatty acid with an alkalai, one at time, to produce soap and glycernine, then blending various soaps, glycerine, fats, and fatty acids, back together, to precisely adjust the properties of a "soap product." It is explained here http://shakahara.com/soap3.html Instead of saying "soap with ingredients which may have been extracted from animal fat (e.g. stearic acid) is avoided" it would be better to day, soap made from animal fats rather than vegetable fats, may be avoided." Although soap products made from vegetable fat may have added animal ingredients, such as glycerine produced from animal fat, or unsaponified animal fats or fatty acids added (added in small amounts). -- Nomenclator 14:48, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Reorganization suggestions:
Kellen T 10:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
This section seems to contradict itself:
The American Dietetic Association says that a properly planned vegan diet presents no significant nutritional problems.[26] Vegans are potentially at risk for being deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[47] vitamin D,[48] calcium,[49][48] iodine[50] and omega-3 fatty acids.[51] These deficiencies can have potentially serious consequences, including anemia,[52] rickets[53] and cretinism[54] in children, and osteomalacia[53] and hyperthyroidism[54] in adults. Supplementation, particularly for vitamin B12, is highly recommended for vegans.[55]
-- Nomenclator 08:12, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
And the part about omega-3 fatty acids still needs clarification. The deficiency risk is not specific to vegans, it is a deficiency risk for the industrialized world in general. And I am tired of people who revert my attempts to change things so that they are are more accurate, simply because they didn't like the precise way I worded it. If I improved something, but didn't improve it "enough", you should leave it, or perhaps improve it a little more, not revert it back to being totally inaccurate.-- Nomenclator 08:19, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
. Vegans, being a subset of vegetarians, can be included as being at risk according to this study. It might be worth noting that the researchers considered the problem to be high soy (phytoestrogen) levels in the first trimester, but the article is quite clear on the risk. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 17:01, 2 March 2007 (UTC)As vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens than do omnivores, these results support the possibility that phytoestrogens have a deleterious effect on the developing male reproductive system.
I just finished exploring one of those brilliant 'List' articles around, and I was thinking, would it be relevant (and forgive me if it's been done, I did a search I swear!) to create a list of animal ingredients, and include a link in this article? I know that many of you would agree that one's non-vegan friends and family are constantly saying "that's not vegan/vegetarian!?". Maybe a list would be really helpful to help people understand the scope of a vegan diet. As a very new Wikipedia member I feel it is not my place to create it myself, besides the fact that all the wiki-skills are a bit beyond me at this point. Anyone interested in doing this with me, or think it's totally pointless? Eddie mars 07:03, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
Summary: The Health Effects Section of this article is written in a discriminatory tone against vegans. The POV tone, and oft-repeated information on nutritional deficiency and sexual defect seek to marginalize vegans as a class. This violated Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. The section on health effect should be condensed, and rewritten in a NPOV tone that does not cast all vegans as nutritional and sexual freaks.
"Vegans are potentially at risk for being deficient in nutrients such as vitamin B12,[1] vitamin D,[2] calcium,[3][2] iodine[4] and omega-3 fatty acids.[5] These deficiencies can have potentially serious consequences, including anemia,[6] rickets[7] and cretinism[8] in children, and osteomalacia[7] and hyperthyroidism[8] in adults. Supplementation, particularly for vitamin B12, is highly recommended for vegans.[9]"
The intro paragraph currently reads:
Nomenclator ( talk · contribs) has repeatedly changed it to various different things including larger lists of non-vegan items, extra commentary from uncited vegans, etc, etc. Most recently he changed it to read ( diff):
I want this to stop. I'd like to take a poll of the editors of this page, to settle on an intro that is the most salient, verifiable summary of veganism/the article. Please sign below, with reasons. Kellen T 17:59, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Here you go: I made the language even more succinct, yet it covers more. No need to specify "dairy products" as in some cultures, dairy products aren't used anyway. So vegans don't leave them out of their diet. Secretions nicely covers dairy products, and anything else animals might secrete, that might be used, such as musk. Hides covers fur AND leather. If you'd like, I could add bones. Then it will be about the same length as it was, but cover more. And I could remove organs, as flesh sort of covers organs. Or I could just say tissues, organs, and secretions. Yea. That is what I think I'll do. That covers everything, yet it isn't a laundry list. As uit was, hides and musk had been left out. -- Nomenclator 17:54, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Please include what needs to be added/removed/etc so we can improve it
I do not think this passage should be in the article. The research study does not make a direct link between veganism and genital defects, saying "more research is necessary." Leaving this passage in the article makes it appear the book is closed on this allegation. Abe Froman 21:45, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
The hypothesis that chemical (pesticide) contamination was to blame was deemed "interesting but not statistically significant", as was the issue of possible nutrient deficiencies. The only potential causal link is that with phytoestrogens, and researchers are even then unwilling to make the link until more research is done. I think that the article has a place here, but I think that we need to find more sources to back it up. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 15:46, 5 March 2007 (UTC)As vegetarians have a greater exposure to phytoestrogens than do omnivores, these results support the possibility that phytoestrogens have a deleterious effect on the developing male reproductive system.
I cleaned up the pregnancies section, which has been the focus of a lot of complaints. It's significantly smaller now.
Kellen T 12:34, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
With the cleanup of the vegan pregnancies section, the entire "health effects" section is now cited and pretty much clean. Some of the prose probably needs tweaking for it to be "beautiful," but I don't think it shows any POV problems. One concern I have about this section is that it could easily come to be a mirror of the "ada position" article. Summarizing things rather than detailing every single study should probably be a goal of editors of this section. Similarly, the introduction, vegan cuisine, and similar diets and lifestyles sections are concise and cited.
The first part of "definition" is pretty good, but as soon as the "animal products" part starts, it goes to hell. What nees major work, though, is actually honestly evaluating the ethics section, which implies some things, but doesn't really cite anything or bring in the objections of major vegan organizations. The "health" section also needs cleanup for clarity and WP:RSes. Kellen T 14:22, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I am posting my comment about the faulty scientific document presented in the article to support a position that a vegan diet has no effect on blood pressure. If the editors of this article agree with my reading of the material, then please remove the offensive passage and citation (#27). Thank you. Barnacleben 08:18, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Forgive me Kellen for posting a suggested change within the article itself about the link between blood pressure and a vegan diet. You deleted my parenthetical revision, so I am reposting my argument here for the benefit of those concerned: "(Edit: Preceeding claim is certainly wrong and potentially dangerous. It should be deleted because the "proof" given does not establish a credible scientific basis for the claim that a vegan diet has no effect on lowering blood pressure. Moreover, the poorly-constructed "study" cited to support this claim confesses that its "findings" are contradictory to the results of prior--and more credible--studies. Furthermore, the authors have chosen not proofread their [there, they're] own material, and by extension we can infer that it was neither reviewed by the scientific community. Get rid of it.)" I have also taken the liberty of deleting the offensive sentence and feel quite confidant that my reading of the material is correct. Do you disagree? Barnacleben 08:29, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
moved improperly placed comments from above Kellen writes "The truth is that working with a smaller subset of foods does put you at higher rsk for missing some nutrients"
That is basically incorrect. The fact is, that all the nutrients needed by animals, are produced by micro-organisms, and green plants. As a human animal, you can either eat the micro-organism or green plant directly, or eat an animal that has eaten the micro-organism or green plant, or an animal that has eaten such an animal, etcetera. This is basic junior high-school biology or junior high school health studies. None of the nutrients that we get from animals, cannot be gotten also - and more directly - from micro-organisms or green plants.-- Nomenclator 16:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
end moved comments
Cpoupart (not Kellen as I mistakenly said before) writes "The truth is that working with a smaller subset of foods does put you at higher rsk for missing some nutrients"
That is basically incorrect. The fact is, that all the nutrients needed by animals, are produced by micro-organisms, and green plants. As a human animal, you can either eat the micro-organism or green plant directly, or eat an animal that has eaten the micro-organism or green plant, or an animal that has eaten such an animal, etcetera. This is basic junior high-school biology or junior high school health studies. None of the nutrients that we get from animals, cannot be gotten also - and more directly - from micro-organisms or green plants. None of the nutrients that we need are actually synthesised by animals. They are all synthesised by micro-organims and green plants.
For examples we do not really need protein. Proteins are polymers of amino acids. We need the amino acids or precursors to amino acids, that make up proteins. Animals get all these amino acids, or partial amino acids, from green plants. Then they string them together into polymers. Humans, when we eat either plants or animals, break apart the protein polymers, and in some case partially disassemble the amino acids, then put them back together again into different amino acids, and different protein polymers. There is no material in animal proteins, that we need, that we can't also find in green plants.
Same goes for the fatty acids we need, and the carbohydrates we need. In some cases, animals will concentrate micronutrients. So we can get the micronutrients in concentrated form, that we can't get from green plants. This is not true for any macronutrients. But is probably true for vitamin B12. However animals will also concentrate toxic matter found in plants, or in the air, that can't be rapidly excreted. They will store it in their fatty tissues. Thus animals become a better source of dioxins, or mercury, than green plants will be. Same is true for iodine (if we eat animal thyroid glands). Iodine is one of those chemicals that we need in tiny amounts, but in larger amounts becomes toxic to us. It is absorbed from the soil by green plants, even though green plants have no use for it. In other words, something can be both a nutrient and a poison, depending on quantity.
Contrary to popular belief, when measuring grams of protein per gram of substance, and measuring at the same level of hydration, animals do not have more protein in their muscle tissue than is found in plant tissues. Dehydrated collards, for example, actually have a higher percentage of protein than dehydrated muscle tissue.
-- Nomenclator 16:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Not everything that is described as "shellac" is really the traditional formulation of lac dissolved in alcohol, that was the original "shellac." Do you think that "latex paints" contain latex? Not in 50 years. The first latex paints contained latex. Gradually various other elastic resins began being used. Today, there is not a single "latex paint" on the market that truly has latex in it. And lots of things called shellac, just do not have any lac in them. Fruits can, however, be covered with beeswax, or whale oil.-- Nomenclator 03:11, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Says "Vegans note additional health benefits are gained by not consuming artificial substances such as growth hormones and antibiotics, which are often given to farmed animals." However what proof for this is there? Not "note" this but claim this is what a few vegans do. Evidence supporting their claims is at best not a lot of it. So to Are there really enough growth hormones in milk to affect milk drinkers? The dairy industry it says no. As a controversy this should not be in encyclopedia where we are wanting facts not controversies, unless they are labeled as controversies. Controversies should not be presented as facts, as here they are presented. No? I'm sorry my English is not good so someone you want to write the changes be else, not me, it would be better. -- Tonguebutcher 22:47, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
There is some dispute about weather or not Peter Singer is a vegan, or simply a vegetarian. His wikipedia page categorizes him as an Australian Vegan and articles like this one from The Guardian [23] also describe him as such. -- Cpoupart ( talk• contribs) 19:19, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
I can't prove this, but for informational sake, I emailed Peter Singer at Princeton a couple of years ago and we talked about veganism and he advocated it heavily. I think saying you're an "impure" vegan doesn't mean you're a vegetarian. I can relate to what he's saying - he's a vegan most of the time but doesn't do it perfectly. GingerGin 04:34, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I've heard him say, on video, he's a vegetarian. It's either in the Singer-Asch debate or the Princeton University Food, Ethics and the Environment Conference at. Here are the links http://realserver.princeton.edu:8080/ramgen/special/19991012singer_ashTV7220K.rm and http://realserver.princeton.edu:8080/ramgen/special/20061116foodconference-session1VN350K.rm
I came across the following on the Tertullian site ( www.tertullian.org and www.tertullian.org/fathers) - there are several sections
Porphyry (philosopher), On abstinence from animal food: [ [26]] - if someone wishes to put in the links. Jackiespeel 18:00, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
There is a popular myth(?) that vegans can eat certain kinds of shell fish, such as mussels, as they lack a nervous system and are incapable of suffering. Is this true? One way or the other, should mention be made of it in the article? Thefuguestate 10:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I just glanced at the references and literally laughed at how bad they are. I don't care enough about the topic to do it myself, but if any self-respecting vegan wikipedians read this may I suggest using sources not from websites such as notmilk.com lol. Cheers. Rothery 13:48, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Moved unreferenced sources from main page. Kellen T 16:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think the data related to # of vegans should be moved elsewhere in the article, with a summary in the intro. I'm not 100% sure of what the title of the section should be; perhaps "Demographics". Comments/concerns? Kellen T 12:31, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
As a subheading for the picture next to 'health' it says "A fruit stall in Barcelona. All fruit is vegan."... should this not make the exception for some apples which are coated with shellac? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.139.184.202 ( talk) 21:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC).
Do we really need some section that will inevitably be filled with non- or poorly sourced material? Can the fact that these people are vegan be mentioned on their own pages if it is notable enough rather than here? Kellen T 08:30, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the "gestation crate" picture really needs an extended explanation of what's going on; there can be a link to an article about the crates rather than having that info here. It doesn't significantly add to the "ethics" section, imho. Kellen T 01:52, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The image seems unfairly biased without an explanation of the background. Perhaps a truncated explanation would work: that gestation crates are necessary to protect piglets. (Also, this is the heart of the ethical issue with the crates: do you protect the piglets or do you provide the sows with more room to roam?) Jav43 22:28, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The conclusion in this paragraph doesn't sound correct:
The definition of Vegan in the article includes not using animal products such as leather and wool. If the poll didn't ask respondents about non-food uses of animal products, then the conclusion "They were, in other words, vegan" doesn't hold. At best, 1.4% is an upper bound on the number of vegans - the actual number could be considerably lower. 192.171.3.126 13:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Hi Vegans. I can understand not wanting to cause undue suffering to animals, but if that's the reason for one's veganism, how does one feel about the eating habits of carnivores? Are lions murderers? and as far as the health concerns go, well, it seems like one has to have ample time and money to be able to maintain this diet without problems - also, if it's so healthy, why can I not think of any society in the history of the world that was 100% vegan? It seems to me that people should be concentrating more on advocating the responsible eating of meat - which would entail eating much less meat(in places where it is eaten not in moderation, like Chicago, for example)and ensuring that animals utilised by people are treated in a humane, respectful way. If you think that's a contradiction, well, a deer being eaten by a wolf is no less ethical than a clean shot from me (and I get a useful skin out of it). It just seems to me that if veganism were the dominant paradigm, which is what I assume vegans want, it would actually throw things just as out of balance as they already are. 76.173.124.88ModerateMeatEater
Keep in mind that talk pages are to talk about the article, NOT the subject of the article. And in general, no, most vegans disagree with eating meat because it's unnatural, not because it's inhumane. Although I don't think anyone is expecting civility out of a carnivore, I'd rather like to see it out of a land owner -- Phoeba Wright OBJECTION! 03:13, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
The IPA pronunciation of "vegan" has been changed a bit, from [ˈviːgən] to [viːgən] ... from reading the IPA chart, it appears that the first is more correct than the second (since it indicates the "primary stress" is on the first bit), but I can't really tell if I'm reading everything correctly. Anybody? Kellen T 00:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
I know the original and strict definition of veganism says that honey is not vegan. Nevertheless, some vegans eat honey and still consider themselves to be vegan. A recent edit to Vegetarianism tried to add this information. My impression is that wikipedia pages need to cover all viewpoints, and a significant subset of vegans do consume honey. I feel something to the effect "Although the original definition of veganism excluded honey and insect products, some vegans consider these to be vegan." should be added. some outside sources: http://www.veganmeat.com/honey.html and http://www.vegan.org/FAQs/index.html#7 -- Madeleine 18:58, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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