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I providing a linkable reference for someone to post in the article and get rid of this moronic claim that vegans have higher anorexic rates. Actually, it should be removed immediatly. The article main article I believe you are refering to is [ [1]]. Another you refer to is [ [2]] which has no reference to anorexia and the only reference to vegan simply gives a definition to vegan. The third article you refer to is [ [3]] which also as absolutely no reference to "vegans".
There is absolutly no reference in any of these studies backing up what 'Skinwalker's claim "Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder."
Skinwalkers's latest edit is a revert stating that there is "no consensus on the talk page for removing this material" However, Skinwalker never talks but rather just does revisions as he sees fit. Apparently he spends much of his time on this as well. HMMM. Idleguyspal. 01 December 2005
Right now only there is only positive analyses of Vegan ethics, i feel that some inconsistencies should be pointed out, maybe I went to far with suicide, but the paradox of eating fruit by vegans while 1000's of insects were killed in its production is relevant-- Hq3473 01:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you really care about the destruction of the small animals? Why should I care so much as you? Vagot 06:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Vagot 06:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I see no reason to remove ny comment about cannibalism. Since product derived from humans are not considered "animal", veganism in prinicple does not prohibit cannibalism. In fact some vegans do argue that by not eating its own dead humans are wasting a valuable sustainable resourse. -- Hq3473 01:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
How about we forget this cannibalisim nonsense and try some HuFu. The vegan souce for mock HUMAN meat.
This is ridiculous, we must eat something so we eat things that cause the least amount of harm. Can we at least have conversations with an inkling of common sense.
I am sorry to raise these two issues in the same breath but, firstly, as it directly relates to this topic, I would like to point out that Donald Watson founder of the Vegan Society and inventor of the world sadly passed away aged 95 (1910-2005) on 16th November at his home in the north of England.
It death is a great loss to us all and but reaching such a fine age, he was a great example to the world if the realities of the vegan diet and lifestyle. Donald had been vegan for more than 60 years. Dates added to topic page.
---
Please excuse the headlining of this edit but as one individual Idleguy seems to be using threats of reporting and accusation of vandalism to subvert this topic with his own politics, I would like to raise this to the top.
There has been much discussion of the inclusion by Idleguy of a environemental critique of veganism using a case statistics that are actually about deforestation caused by an increase in soya bean production when that soya bean production is for the meat industry and an argument against rice production in face of meat production on the basis that certain forms of rice production use a lot of water, ignoring that meat production uses as much as 10 times more. The non sequitors in his arguments have been pointed out many times by more than one source on both this and his own talk pages but he continues to ignore them
Now, simply put, neither soya nor rice are synonymous with vegan.
If there are issues arising from their production then they belong on a relative webpage not a disassociated one.
As much as I welcome a proper scientific environmental critique of vegan diet, this is not it. Indeed, I think an environmental critique is going to be one of the weakest critiques of veganism possible.
The vegan topic has grown too long and under the guidelines needs to be shorter. It cannot grow to accomodate every claim and rebuttal. The intention of the Wiki is to define topics, offer links and source for further study. It ought not be a political soapbox or discussion forum, there are plenty of those elsewhere. This current edit - without the meat industry's soya beans argument- is just under the maximum.
I have worked hard to remove many duplications, correct punctuation and remove unnecessary flab to get it back within the limits. No essential information is lost. There may be the odd typo but I suggest we work with it as it is. In truth, it would make a better contribution if it were shorter again
Question ;
" All and everything " topics can only expand so far.
Idleguy, by your own userpage you are not expert in this topic either by scientific education nor personal experience. Stop trying to use terminology such as " vandalism " and threats of reporting to support your POV. Open your mind to take on board what is being said to you.
The addition of "Criticism of environmental motivations of vegans" is a meat eater activist attack and has no place in this article. After all, is it a motivation for those who have adopted veganism based on the fact that rice is a water hog? If any vegans have become vegan because rice is innefficient I would like to see some source material or a study backing it. Bink 18:20, 8 Nov 2005
This is my initiation of discussion for my edit. Please respond.
Please respond in a super clear explanation of why it is that vegans become vegan because it is environmentally irresponsible. Do you have source material? Most vegans do believe it is environmentally responsible to conduct their diet in such a way. The general effects of certain farming practices is an interesting subject, but does not relate to motivation of most vegans, which is the section in question as far as neutrality. Bink 17 Nov 2005
Respond
personal attack by user FarkinVigger removed -- Doc ask? 17:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I was simply illustrating a point here. It was not a personal attack in anyway, as I was responding to the latest edit on the article by 64.203.165.126 who stated on the opening paragraph "All vegans are f--gots." This is the personal attack you should be concerned with. This is the type of thing perpetuated by these edit wars that is getting out of hand. FarkinVigger 13:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed a paragraph from Criticism and controversy section. It is POV and not backed by any source material: "Criticisms have also focused on the prevalence of eating disorders within people espousing a vegan lifestyle. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation. Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder." FarkinVigger 15:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Cheers, Skinwalker 23:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Skinwalker, do you spell vegetarian vegitarian?
I don't, yet you lend yourself to it so well since you can't even spell vegitarian. What are you mysterious one? It is an enigma that I am dying to know. but lets stay on point here. I want some source material.
WishinWhite 4:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
You negative and taunting attidute is not helping you, and neither is your sockpuppetry (multiple IPs and signing comments with several nonexistent user names). I gave references that anyone can look up either in the cited journals or by *properly* using pubmed. Do you know how to look up scientific paper abstracts? Did you RTFM on article searching on pubmed? If you can rationally build a consensus on this talk page for removing my edits, go ahead. If that happens, fine, I won't complain. Otherwise, I consider this exchange pointless. I get the distinct feeling that I have unwittingly fed a troll. Skinwalker 22:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
There is absolutly no reference in any of these studies backing up what your claim "Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder."
The section about health and veganism is absolutely flawed. There is for example no evidence whatsoever that meat is generally unhealthy - to the contrary. This article needs to be marked with a bias warning, it is a shame as it is to be part of an encyclopedia.
I second that, this whole veganism page seems more of an advertism for veganism then a neutral article.
RESPONSE: Go take a health class at your community college. The human body has *adapted* to meat-eating, but we're not built for it (our intestines are too long, our saliva is acidic, etc), and therefore obtaining nutrients from vegan food is preferable to obaning the same nutrients in the same qualities from meat, not only due to the cholesterol and natural hormones present in meat, but also due to the added chemicals and growth hormones.
The human body has *adapted* to meat-eating
http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet.asp
Indeed, thousands of years of adapting (evolution perhaps?). Humans have always been omnivores, hunters scavengers if you will. Given that Chimpanzees are omnivorous, you would have a pretty good case for at elast 4 million. Is Gorilla hunting documented? I've heard rumours but never seen anything conclusive. If you could find that, you could easily double your timescale. (16/05/2005)
According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo, only common chimps are really omnivorous, whereas pygmy chimpanzees or bonobos are primarily herbivorous. Given the minor anatomical and genetic differences between the two chimp species, and yet the relatively large difference in diets I'm not sure it makes any sense to use chimps as evidence that humans(with our more pronounced differences from chimps) were omnivorous throughout prehistory.
Might I even be so bold to say that veganism is unnatural?? Why you ask??? Ok......I'll give you a hint and another www.mercola.com/2005/apr/16/sunlight_vegans.htm unreliable fringe source? HINT!]
While not necessarily negating that theory, it has also been suggested that consuming vegetables with small amounts of dirt on them (which is how they most likely would have been consumed during most of human history) could provide enough b12 for a healthy human diet. It may also be that washing vegatables is "unnatural".
Go take a health class at Harvard
Strange, I think you made an enormous typo, don't you mean PETA College?
Check out an article on the natural human diet http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet.asp
Consumption of meat has been linked to heart disease, obesity, and some forms of cancer. The most effective treatment for a person with heart disease is a switch to a low-sodium, low-fat, vegan diet. Most reputable nutritionist' advocate a vegetarian diet, check the Physician's Committee for Responible Medicine (PCRM) if you dispute any of these comments.-- Baumstev 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The Physician's Committee for Responible Medicine is group that has been widely criticized for being associated with PETA. It is not a good source for use in an unbias article. Stop using goveg.com as a source for information either as it is obviously a pro-vegan website. Most scientists agree man is omnivorous. Man can not digest cellulose, a prime component in plants. (I never eat plants, especially grass with all that nasty cellulose, they're yucky) Just look at this and tell me man is a herbivore. [10] To say that man is a herbivore is nothing but propaganda created by vegetarians to convert man into a vegetarian creature. Evidence shows that people were hunter-gathers before the advent of agriculture. The head of the PCRM is not a nutritionist, he is a psychiatrist. He has written on nutrition but is really not a nutritionist. He don't know shit.
? ?, ?, 2005 (UTC)
Goveg.com is not used enough as direct a source in the article, it should however. The Natural Human Diet article on goveg.com, by the way, has pleanty of source material backing it, as does the rest of the site. Just because you don't agree with PETA's marketing aproach doesn't make it a non-realiable source. There are pleanty of well educated and successful vegans (not associated with PETA) in the world, including scientists, docters, nutritionists, athletes, etc.
AntiIdleguy 15:18, 28 November, 2005 (UTC)
I've split the latter portion of "Vegan cuisine" off into this heading because it seems to be an entirely seperate subject. Though most Anarcho-punks do indeed cook somewhat distinctly in comparison to those of Le Cordon Bleu (spelling?), their motivations don't really fit under "cuisine." Canaen 05:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, TonyClarke, not trying to pick on you, but I noticed you changed seafood to sea animals. However, seafood != sea food. I mean, by definition (see Merriam-Webster for example) seafood is "edible marine fish and shellfish." I think this is people's understanding of the word as well and is more common than "sea animals" so it seems using this definition should be allowed. Doesn't need to be a big fight I wouldn't think. If no one changes it back I probably will, but I'll leave it for comments before I do it. Dictionary definitions should be allowed in most cases, I would guess. Superclear 22:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The heroic anon works his wonder to pull this article within the Wiki 30k limit according to the guidelines!
I have put in a lot of work to remove the numerous repetitions, punctuation errors and unnecessary conditionals. Note that in general there is no need for a comma before an and.
Now, there are a few of you both pro-vegan but mostly anti-vegan that are not going to like this but it makes for a better Wiki. It is a good time for less equally more. And, yes, those daft environmental criticisms and Beef Association references got the chop.
Now look, this is meant to be merely an encyclopedia. Not a discussion forum. Not a flame war nor a place to make personal or collective insults and not a personal website.
If you want to discuss the matter further or grind your own personal axe, go start your own webpage and if the sources are good enough we will link to it from here. There is not the room for all and everything.
In the meanwhile, enjoy your veggie-burgers.
anon 06:59, 22 November 2005 (GMT)
anon 14:34, 22 November 2005 (GMT)
I don't see any consensus on this page for large-scale removal of content due to size concerns. There is a documented process for dealing with this situation as outlined in Wikipedia:Article size. The content removals should stop immediately. -- Viriditas 11:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a cite that actually contests this statement, "A commonly cited (and contested) statistic is that it takes 14 times more land area to support a meat eater than a vegetarian.". Otherwise I feel the paranthetical note should be removed, and will do it myself once I can get some time to research possibile articles that contest the statistic, or someone provides a cite. Shawn M. O'Hare 19:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
While the number is fairly uncertain due to the ambiguous nature of the statement, the general principle of an approximately 10x inefficiency is extremely commonly accepted... Hmm. -- Joehaer 03:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed the statement
The same can likely be said about the diet of any developed nation. Specifically, the criticisms deal with consumerism in general, and just happens to focus on a small subset of veganism, thus it is not really relevant to general veganism. The vegan diet as a whole, being just a restriction on the set of all foods, is not inherently reliant on processed foods, but the statement almost suggests this. If someone feels the need to put the statement back in, I suggest adding "However, consumerist veganism is a small subset of veganism proper, which has no inherent reliance on processed foods." or something more clever. Though then the statement just becomes superfluous. Shawn M. O'Hare 19:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
The talk page has become bloated and it is time for an archive. One of the admins can archive the page. Tx Idleguy 08:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday I fixed part of the article listing Wool as a by-product of slaughtered animals. Then, Idleguy reverted to his misinformation. Wool is not a byproduct of anything. Wool production is an industry in its own right, and sheep are raised specifically for wool production. When sheep become too old to produce wool, they are sent to slaughter. Wool is not taken from slaughtered sheep. Yes, this is out of place. However, I cannot just post this on Idleguy's talk page, as it would go unnoticed, and he would be free to ignore it. We cannot confine things like these to User talk pages; it just doesn't work. Issues like this must be brought to the attention of the community. Idleguy appears to have nothing to contribute to this article. All he has done is make trouble with his bias ideas. There has been far too much controversy over his actions, and I suggest something be done to prevent him from continuing this. However, I am not experienced enough in dealing with these issues within the Wikipedia, and thus suggest that someone who has dealt with similar matters on the Wikipedia take further action, after an attempt to reach some sort of consensus. Canaen 02:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Have removed the links to these external sites as I understood that we are trying to keep the links section as lean and on-topic as possible. Whilst personally I agree that such calculators are useful I don't think that they belong on this page. quercus robur 12:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I reverted anon's reworking of the eating disorder section, as I felt that his version was needlessly POV and gave a distorted view of the science on vegan/vegetarianism and eating disorders. Does anyone (other than anon) have strong feelings one way or another about the version I reverted to? Thanks, Skinwalker 19:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
(following discussion has been moved from Skinwalker edits)
Skinwalker re-inserted false reference to his claims: "Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder."
I rewrote it but it, Skinwalker then reverted it to his POV and he continues to misquote the evidence suggested in his source material. This is serious and others need to take a close look at this. Here is my rewrite of the paragraph which he claims POV:
Regarding the comments about the environment in the "Criticism and controversy" section - these charges may be true, but how are they directly related to people being vegans? They are more of a testament about bad farming practices and environmental concerns. -- Jtalledo (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The environment section is plainly being dominated by an anti vegan propagandist called "idleguy" who lists "guns" as one of his favourite things. The poor grasp of facts displayed in this section is breathtaking.
I added more data to the section, and our anti vegan gun lover simply changed it back. I have written him a letter challenging him to put up a factual basis for his arguments and as yet have recieved no response. Here is a selection from it :
"Your comment that the production soybeans is encouraging the destruction of the Amazon is correct. Everything you state from that point, that vegans eat lots of soybeans so meat eaters are more environmentally sound, is demonstrably false. A 2003 World Bank Study found in Brazil's Amazon "recent deforestation in significant parts of the region is basically caused by medium- and large-scale cattle ranching". The WWF who you quote as your source, in their Impacts of Soybean report plainly state "The market for soybean products is mostly driven by the livestock feed industry". So do you deny the evidence of the WWF when you mistakenly think it supports your case, but ignore it when it is shown to actually be directly against what you would like to believe? As for your using Greenpeace to give creedence to your argument, I have been a member and volunteer with Greenpeace for years, so if you would like the official position on this matter, which I am sure you don't because it won't agree with what you are saying, I will be happy to provide it.
The assertion in the criticisms section which you removed my reply to, that rice is the leading cause of methane output, also goes against the EPA figures. These figures show that7 rice produces 2 to 3 times less methane worlwide than animal products. If you actually read the report that you quote as backing up your assertions, you would find that the very first table used in the report Table 1 lists Enteric Fermentation (mostly cattle) and animal waste as combined producing well over twice as much methane as rice production. Even this table is old, if you read the IPCC report it states "For instance, intensive studies on emissions from rice agriculture have substantially improved these emissions estimates (Ding and Wang, 1996; Wang and Shangguan, 1996). Further, integration of emissions over a whole growth period (rather than looking at the emissions on individual days with different ambient temperatures) has lowered the estimates of CH4 emissions from rice agriculture from about 80 Tg/yr to about 40 Tg/yr (Neue and Sass, 1998; Sass et al., 1999).".
As for your assertion that rice is damaging because it uses 5,000 litres of water per kilo of grain, government studies in Australia show that a kilo of beef uses between 50,000 to 100,000 litres. Even the article you cite as evidence is talking about the increased use of more efficient methods of rice production which halve the water consumption you selectively quote from the article."
Personally I don't even understand why most of this sort of anti vegan garbage isn't in a "flesh eaters" section. If you want to make an argument about how great murdering defenseless animals and keeping them in factory farms is, create a section and contribute to it. Create your own anti-veganism page, just don't screw up what should be an informative page for everyone else.
People eat meat out of habit and greed, for no higher reason than that they like it. Any pretenses they have that this is some thought out rational, ethical position, come to after considering all the facts, is complete intellectual dishonesty.
Cameron Green
To Mr Green: I'm sorry I couldn't respond immediately as my PC was down during this time.
Let me start by saying that the current veganism article talks primarily about animal meat processed only in the developed world. Your talk about Australian beef also is the same path. Here's some news. In many countries in the developing world like India (which has the world's highest cattle population) cows are not bred mainly for the meat but for their milk. Now each cow produces anywhere from 5 - 20 litres per day. multiply that by the number of productive years in a milch animal and you'll understand that it's not just about a kilo of meat as you project it but tonnes of milk produced in its lifetime. Talking about the farm animals, the bulls and buffaloes are put to multiple purposes in such agriculture oriented economies. They are used in ploughing the fields, transporting people and produce through bullock carts etc. So merely stating that they are raised only to produce meat is also nothing but selective presentation of the same data from a purely western view of the world. Infact the combined uses of the animals far outweigh the problems, contrary to your thinking. The western world my dear friend is NOT the whole world. India has the highest heads of cattle in the world and is the world`s leading producer of carabeef and you would be astounded at the waste that they thrive on. They eat everything from regular paddy and other plants unfit for human consumption to discarded vegetables, waste including sometimes paper. The article if anything currently assumes that animals throughout the world are fed produce exclusively grown for them. The manure is used as a natural fertilizer and so doesn`t produce soil contamination or food residue to the extent produced by chemical fertilizers. Sure, they (manure) do contribute to a miniscule amount of overall methane production, but not greater than the burning of fossil fuel.
Rice emissions have been studied by many including IRRI and has been acknowledged as the leading source of methane gas and one source has been provided within the wikipedia article itself. The reference which you claim to show that the reverse is true, is with all due respects leaving out the "wetland" part which has since been mainly converted to rice cultivation. [15] is yet another newer source that explains clearly what really is the leading contributor of rice emissions.
While it is true that cattle ranching is one of the leading culprits, to project it solely as the main reason is false. Subsistence farming, logging, largescale intensive farming and "development" are, combined take a larger toll according to almost all sources in the amazon alone. Now that you want to expand, here's news that'll shock you. In tropics, the major reason for deforestation is the farming of such pristine forests and not as otherwise projected. [16] will show that they are the primary reasons for deforestation. Thus if one takes the whole world the cause is clear: agriculture takes the first place followed by animals and then others. [17] is another one that gives a global perspective. In fact the article should reflect not just the amazon but also a global perspective exposing that farming is the main culprit worldwide and I'll make changes accordingly.
I believe WWF despite their good intentions still point to only one reason for soybean production. That they are used for cattle feed. A less biased sourced would tell you that soybean contents cannot be consumed entirely by ruminants or humans alone. Both contribute to its production and in sheer dollar terms, the human consumption of soybean is higher than that goes to animal feed. [18] shows the varied uses not mentioned by Greenpeace or WWF If you cannot stomach the fact that your tofu or soy sauce comes from a rainforest being destroyed, then no amount of data can convince you otherwise. Sorry. The fact that I love guns does not inherently label me as a propagandist. I'm just here to correct facts .
Your line "People eat meat out of habit and greed, for no higher reason than that they like it" is a sweeping statement that intends to pass value judgements on entire populations few of whom you have had real contact with. A trip to Africa and Asia should clear many of those misconceived notions of how the world works.
Cheers Idleguy 18:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Your line "A trip to Africa and Asia should clear many of those misconceived notions of how the world works" is a sweeping statement that intends to pass value judgements on entire populations few of whom you have had real contact with. More than likely, Many vegans have gone to Africa and Asia and many other third world countries. Do you see how childish this is Idleguy? Don't you have anything better to do?
Cheers Anti-Idleguy 26 November 2005
There is plenty of source material out there on the subject of the environmental degradation due to inefficient agricultural practices. In fact, livestock takes a lions share of it (directly or indirectly). I would like to compile a list of reputable sources, with the help of those interested in getting down the facts (vegan and non-vegan). Many vegans who factor environmental concern in their decision have seen statistics on meat to grain ratios, percentages of water usage in livestock production, percentages of land use in livestock prodution, comparative energy usage, top soil loss, fecal contamination of water supply, and even starvation rates.
Although Rice is produced at a rate of 1550 to 2000 litres of water to 1 kilo of grain, beef is produced at a rate between 50,000 to 100,000 litres of water to 1 kilo of meat. [19] How about a little veg/omni cooperation on this? Just the facts maam.
I made an edit on the ratios because it is quoting the Australian study. The list of references below should give clarification to some of the questions we all have. The chicken water usage quoted by FrancisTyers also quotes rice at 2,700 not 5,000 litres of water. It also states in this article that vegetarians use far less virtual water than non-vegetarians. Interesting article, thanks. Vigger 5:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Amount of soy grown in United States consumed by livestock: 90% Amount of corn grow in United States consumed by livestock: 80% Amount of total U.S. grain production consumed by livestock: 70%
IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 1.2 PLANETS. ^___^ - FrancisTyers 01:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe I have fixed the best foot forward calculator link. The foreward slash at the end messes the link up somehow. Idleguyspal 05:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS
Worldwatch This site seems to provide more "global" data that could be used to give a worldwide perspective.
Dairy ecological footprint study
GRACE Global resource action center for the environment
John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Global Food Security
I think this almost warrants a separate article, Veganism and the environment. Has there been any research done into the airmiles used by the exotic foods that vegans (at least the ones I know) enjoy (I'm not talking just about tofu)? What is the total environmental impact of equal amounts of tofu-chicken versus a free-range organically produced chicken? I realise only a subsection of the vegan population eats "tofu chicken", but then there is a subsection of the meat-eating population that eats "only locally produced, free-range organic meat". - FrancisTyers 21:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Italicized lines are what I have removed.
In most Asian countries, where rice is the staple food, plant cultivation is the most prevalent cause of environmental damage. The cultivation of paddy requires far greater quantity of water than most crops grown in Europe/America. Cultivating a single kilogram of rice requires 5,000 litres of water [26] and thus places a huge stress on the water supply far higher than would be needed for animal husbandry. In fact rice cultivation is seen as the main culprit behind methane emissions. [27]
Rice is not inherently linked ot Veganism. Some Vegans, and some Ominvores, and someone of probably every such orientation, choose to omit rice from their diets for the above information, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Veganism as-is. It is perfectly good information (besideds the second-to-last line), but it just doesn't belong here. Furthermore, the large amount of Rice Cultivation is not present because of Vegans; it is present because of Asian cultures, who have used Rice as a dietary staple since antiquity.
No where in the article is Rice Cultivation promoted. I see no reason for a criticism of Rice Cultivation anywhere in this article. Canaen 09:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, the increase in soybean consumption - a product used in many vegan and non-vegan foods and in US cattle feed - has led to concerns over its environmental impact. Greenpeace have complained that soybean cultivation in Brazil is encouraging Amazon rainforest deforestation. The increase in soyabean cultivation and extensive farming has led to losing large tracts of forest land leading to ecological damage as per WWF and other sources. In most of the tropical countries, farming is cited as the primary cause for forest loss [28]. According to the FAO, 90% of deforestation is directly attributed to unsustainble agriculture.
All of this Soybean cultivation is not for making Tofu; it's for making cattle feed. Do a quick Google Scholar search for "Soybean Cultivation" and "Cattle Production" and you'll find out soon enough. The top 5 or so are even specific to Brazil.The FAO, then they released that information, was including currect Cattle Production under the term "unsustainable agriculture." The Beef Industry, directly or indirectly. causes the vast majority of Amazonian Deforestation. Get you facts straight, people. Don't try to write anything which you don't understand. Canaen 04:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
No where in the article is Soy Bean Cultivation promoted. I see no reason for a criticism of Soy Bean Cultivation anywhere in this article. Canaen 09:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Revisiting the section, the entire Environmental criticism is flawed. Someone please prove the rest of it, or else it will stay down.
Feed for animals in an agrarian economy is seldom cultivated for purposes of animal feed and is often the by-product of crops primarily grown for human consumption, thus creating a meat output from hay and other plant produce. Thus, factory farming is often limited only to poultry in many parts of Africa, Asia and South America. In these regions animals are often seen as a sustainable way of life providing much needed protein and milk. The recent outbreaks of avian flu, which spreads rapidly through close-packed poultry-pens, has caused some concern over the safety of current factory-farming practices.
The first line isn't an environmental criticism, though it is valid. If someone wants to make a new section for information like that, go ahead. But it doesn't bleong here, and the rest of that bit is just incoherent blather. Canaen 04:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Idleguy, and anyone else, stop adding these back in, until you explain yourself. At the very least, they need to be re-written. Canaen 07:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Veganism, so-called, is primarily prevalent in Industrialized nations. To get my point acrossm let's look at this example:
Johnny is a Vegan. He lives in the U.S.A., and subscribes to PETA.
Patricia (I have a poor knowledge of names for Jains) is a Jain. She practices Ahimsa, and does simple work all day.
They have the same beliefs regarding the prevention of suffering, but the "Veganism" movement is certainly only prevalent in the first person; the second simply considers herself a Jain, not a Vegan. She probably has never even heard the term "Vegan.
I suggest, in the interest of Countering systemic bias, we either use "Similar diets and lifestyles" or create another section to include information that may be good, but irrelevant to Veganism so-called. I'm not saying this as well as I should be - hopefully I'll be able to on the morrow. Basically, I want to make sure that this article is not completely Western-centric, however I do not at all support the idea of muddling information relevant to Westerners with other information completely irrelevant. This article has had a tendency to do just that, I have noticed, giving a feeling of invalidity to many reasons that Vegans claim to be Vegans for. Canaen 05:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I think my patience has run out on these editors: anon with ip address: 64.105.20.237 and more recently User:Canaen who is abusive by calling me as "ignorant" in his edit summaries and threatening me with vandalism warnings. He and his coterie have constantly sought to present a very lop sided view and rubbish anything and anyone else as vandals when the opposite is true. Anon 64.105.20.237 has been going around in these and related talk pages signing off with a username "Idleguyspal" which is very much against the spirit of Wikipedia. misleading username by anon and personal attacks by both are entirely out of spirit.
I suggest that someone stop these vandalistic editors and save me from these attacks. I'm also reporting these two for harassment or whatever is appropriate. Idleguy 08:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Idleguysucks 11:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I protected this page due to this massive edit war that has developed. Please talk this out or use dispute resolution. Please. No more personal attacks. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 09:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Dr. Per-Olof Åstrand of the Swedish Karolinska Institute conducted an informal study of diet and endurance using nine highly trained athletes, changing their diet every three days. At the end of every diet change, each athlete would pedal a bicycle until exhaustion. Those with a high protein and high fat meat (carnivore) diet averaged 57 minutes. Those that consumed a mixed (omnivore) diet, lower in meat, fat and protein averaged 1 hour and 54 minutes: twice the endurance of the meat and fat eaters. The vegetarian, high carbohydrate diet athletes lasted 2 hours and 47 minutes, triple the endurance of the high-protein group. (Source: Åstrand, Per-Olof, Nutrition Today 3:no2, 9-11, 1968) [21]
I'm removing this as soon as the protection comes off. 1. The 'source' comes from www.filipinovegetarianrecipe.com, 2. The 'source' does not mention veganism.
Hi
once the protection is off, I'd like to propose the inclusion of a link to the subject page of Donald Watson (1910-2005)and photo of him.
As Donald has recent died, if a moderator seeks fit to add it during these protected periods out of respect, the image is available as vegandonald.jpg.
There is another article just on Donald Watson that ought be linked to at the same time.
Thanks
Mitsu 18:10, 5 December 2005 (GMT)
Hi
I'd just like to flag up the dishonest snitching to the admins Skinwalker is using to mess around with this article.
It funny how meateater trolls like Skinwalker and Idleguy know and use all the tricky buzzwords, like " sockpuppet, the 3RR rule that they use whilst ignoring that they are doing.
This is Skinwalker snitching to Woohookitty
How can he know all these folk are the same folk?
The biggest joke is that they are not!
1. Move "envrionmental critisism" to environmental vegetarianism.
2. Move "anorexia" to semi-vegetarian or vegetarian.
Let's Vote. Canaen 09:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose. Look, you two trolls can keep this circle jerk going between the pair of you for as long as you want but the fact it, the moment you insert anything, we are going to waste it. You cannot block every non-fixed IP, all public internet access nor the increasing number of proxies. I suppose this is only going to last until Idleguy gets a job and gets over his weird fixation with veganism.
VeganJustice 21:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC) Anonymous user.
Support Canaen 09:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Support Nidara 11:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC) a.k.a 64.105.20.237 or I.G.P.
Support Joehaer 00:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Oppose on "1." Moving the entire "environmental criticism" from here is not OK. It would be best to ensure continuity by having a small lead up paragraph of the said criticism here and move the rest to the environmental vegetarianism. On the same note, it must be balanced by having just one or two paragraphs in the article about "Environmental considerations" instead of having such a huge section. The choice is clear: Either both stay, or both get pruned to provide a balanced view. Idleguy 04:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Support on "2." Idleguy 04:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Oppose on "1." I don't have a problem with moving most of the material to Environmental Vegetarianism, but the Veganism article makes questionable claims about the environmental motivation of vegan diets. These claims may be true in the context of western factory farming, but they clearly do not apply to developing nations, and we need to represent a worldwide view. As a compromise, I would like to implement FrancisTyers' suggestion that we keep two sentences, one supporting, one opposed. I suspect the proposal for "1." is somewhat disingenuous, since there is a minor war going on there about whether to keep this info in THAT article.
Compromise on "2." I propose a similar solution to that in "1.": move the information to Vegetarianism, but keep two sentences here, one supporting, one opposed. I will admit that there is a lack of vegan-only research on eating disorders. And, to be perfectly clear, I must state as I have before that a vegan diet does not cause eating disorders, and that a properly balanced vegan diet does not cause malnutrition. However, veganism is a subset of vegetarianism. In fact, vegans restrict themselves to fewer dietary options than vegetarians. Does anyone have a problem with these two statements? There is conclusive research showing that anorexia is correlated with a vegetarian diet, especially in college-age women living in developed nations. College nutritionists are trained to recognize a self-reported vegetarian diet as a risk factor for an eating disorder. Indeed, half of diagnosed anorectics are vegetarian. I don't think it is unfair or illogical to extrapolate these results from a poorly-balanced vegetarian diet to a poorly-balanced vegan diet. We need to stress nutritional adequacy as a counter to these arguments and dangers.
Therefore, I propose we move the paragraph on eating disorders to Vegetarianism, but insert the following sentences in the health criticism section in Veganism:
Finally, I would like to thank Canaen et al for toning down the rhetoric and offering positive suggestions for breaking the deadlock on the article. If we can continue assuming good faith, and making rational arguments, and not impugning each other's motives, I think we can make this article much better. I will continue to assume good faith unless personal attacks, vandalism, and/or sockpuppetry resumes. Please make honest arguments, and be willing to listen and compromise. Cheers, Skinwalker 17:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Support per Skinwalker and Idleguy. Suggest rephrasing as follows:
I don't think the the last sentence needs to be included, it sounds preachy and that isn't what wikipedia is about. Could someone make a subsection to this talk page outlining the current proposals and run another vote? Just to be crystal clear? - FrancisTyers 17:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
What exactly are we voting on? The environmental reasons for going vegan, or the anti-vegan propaganda that tries to counter that? Michael Bluejay 17:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Idleguys Environmental criticism have no place in either the vegan or vegetarian topics because they relate to the meat industry and omnivores. He still reuses to address this matter. If it is included just becuase some veggies do it, then why not included enviroment criticism of vegan flying, vegan automobile driving, vegan house painting and everything else that any vegan or vegetarian does that might be in any way environmentally damaging. If it is about anorexia then move it to anorexia. 217.147.85.6
It seems so blatantly irrelevant to both--I suppose there is perhaps a bit closer, though—
Joehaer 22:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Only if two sentences remain: one for, one against, as I discussed above. Skinwalker 03:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a joke, right? Anorexia is an eating disorder. It is not "semi-vegetarianism". --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 14:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
What is involved with the Environmental section in your view, regarding the vote below. Please specify:
Just to be clear before I vote. I'm for either no's. 1, 2 or 4. - FrancisTyers 12:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone, or a group of someones, went through all the trouble of creating a factsheet out of John Robbins' "Diet for a New America" : http://www.vegsource.com/how_to_win.htm
I think it's worthy of being added to the links section, but I remember some hissy-fitting over an over-extensive links section. Would someone mind either explaining, or telling me under which archive said discrepency might be found? Canaen 10:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
"...it is one of the only online resources consolidating data extrapolated from the U.S.D.A by John Robbins, M.D., Pulitzer prize winning author for this material."
Suggestion to include idea that human intelligence is linked to the acquisition of meat.[ http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/s6549.html The Hunting Apes: Meat Eating and the Origins of Human Behavior Craig B. Stanford
This is kind of on the same level as the one Caenan posted. -
FrancisTyers 21:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
If this is an "argument", it seems to be quite shallow.
This "argument" presumes that I live in the US and eat meat that has been fed antibiotics, then goes on to argue that the only solution is to stop eating meat. This is a false dichotomy, there are many more solutions besides just "becoming vegetarian". I think you get the idea, but if you like I'll take apart all the arguments in succession. I'd prefer not to do it here because it would just clutter up the Talk page. Its quite interesting, because most of these "arguments" support my case as much as they do yours. I might even consider using them with some of my friends who still eat death camp meat. - FrancisTyers 12:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Let's Make This Final. Please sign for both 1. and 2. in order to prevent confusion. Also, please do not discuss or comment in this section of the Talk Page. It will be moved to the discussion section. See above. Note: this vote refers to Proposition 4.
I've organized the Archives in accordance with Wikipedia Policy. It's also just plain cleaner, and avoids others having to go through and do this to many more Veganism archives in the future. I think that as soon as this vote is over, and the page is restored, I'm going to archive the talk page again. If anyone opposes, please explain. Canaen 06:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe that with a vote of 4:0:0 for 1., and 5:0:0 for 2., we can safely assume that the vote is affirmative. It's been a full two days. Does anyone dispute? If not, I will go on to finding an admin to unblock the page. Canaen 03:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Since Skinwalker has decided to threaten me, I will not edit the Request again. However, I strongly suggest that:
Thank you. Canaen 08:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out Skinwalker's dishonesty and favorite trick of spreading FUD through hysterical accusations of vandalism.
Above Skinwalker accuses me of " vandalising " his discussion page. I enclose a copy of what exactly I said for you to decide whether, a) it was vandalism and b) just how Skinwalker's integrity stands as he continues to use the same trick on others. You write anything, Skinwalker squeals it is vandalism in an FUD effort to frighten you off contributing any more. This may be useful as it is where this recent WikiWar started.
And I have to say that despite his paranoia / psychic powers of IP address deduction, I am not connected with any Livejournal, any other contributor or any of the numerous identities Skinwalker tries to claim are one person in his paranoid and aggressive attacks! Personally, I find it fascinating to see how obsessed Skinwalker, Idleguy and Viriditas at trying to denigrate vegan or vegetarianism topics with false POVs. I am starting to wonder, given Skinwalker confession of professional and scientific interest in animal husbandry what his interests are and would like him to clarify this.
Both Idleguy and Skinwalker have gone too far to try and force their dishonest edits and campaign and have been uncovered for what they are. Viriditas seems also to enjoy playing the game of Wiki legalese and accuse vegans of being a " Meatpuppet campaign " when we happen to agree. Notice how clever he is to even include livejournal URLs and such inflammatory and unsustainable slanders in his edit summaries on the RFC page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Society_and_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Society_and_law&action=history\\
As a Requests for comment Skinwalker wrote ;
Now what they are trying to do here is whip up support, probably from more anti-veggie trolls, to support and defend their POVs. They go to accuse Canaen of organising a campaign - which I donot believe for one second - but are, of course, organising their own campaign. The typical move of an accuser accusing someone innocent of what they themselves are doing first, getting the slander in first so that they cannot be accuse of it.
Below is where the problems started after a good effort to a reasonable tidy up of the topic, my post to Skinwalker discussion page ~ and his threatening response.
Is this vandalism? It brings into question Skinwalker's credibility if it is not.
195.82.106.62 12:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Interesting, Viriditas - who defends the trolls - is continues his erroneous personal attack against Canaen accusing his of using " Meatpuppets". Oh so funny irony considering we are talking about a vegan article and the trolls are pushing meat industry propaganda. Same admin Woohookitty is called upon to do the dishonest deed.
For the record, I have no connection with Canaen nor susbcribe to any Livejournal. I just know this subject recognising dishonesty and hypocrisy when I see it.
Try engaging Viriditas in discussion on this topic, he just ignores you. How can there be any progress in such a situation? 195.82.106.62 19:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
See quote below ;
Based on the LiveJournal campaign that you've initiated, I'm going to respectfully ask that you review the Meatpuppet section on WP:SOCK. --Viriditas 07:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit]
Interesting two pronged attack by the usual suspects Viriditas and Skinwalker who threaten to aggressively attack Canaen by filing a " user conduct RfC ". Note this quote from admin's Woohookitty discussing page.
User Skinwalker cant get it into his heads that vegans think and act by themselves - but just happen to agree on number of subjects. They are accusing us all of being organised in a campaign by Canaen now !!! And Canaen is suffering by being banned.
Funnily enough, this is just the same tactic as they use to destroy our environmental and animal rights campaigns. Tellng the same lies until some of it sticks in the general publis's mind, singling out individuals and giving them undue punishment as an example to others - and like Viriditas especially, never actually engaging in direct conversation or democractic votes where it is obvious their arguments will fail.
I note Skinwalker withdrew his vote from the poll. 195.82.106.62 19:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
User Skinwalker reported for persistent violations. See ; [35]
I haven't been able to read back through everything yet, but I'm already seeing a couple of interesting things:
This article could be incredible if both sides pulled back from the fringe a little and gave the article a less emotional tone. .:. Jareth.:. babelfish 22:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Came here via RfC. If someone has solid info about rates of eating disorders, why would that not be included? The same goes for "destructive agriculture of vegetables."
I am impressed with the article! Once this conflict is cleared, I would nominate if for featured article.
Sethie 16:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Re: RfC, if there are verifiable sources to affirm the claim that some anorexics claim veganism as a cover then by all means address that with citations. Durova 00:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I have posted this here in an attempt to grab everyone's attention. While its place here may be disputed, I ask that it remain, for the purpose of getting read by everyone who needs or likes to.
To whom it may concern: I am Canaen. This is the only username I have ever edited Wikipedia under. A long time ago, before this account was created, I edited as my IP for a few edits, that were entirely grammatical. A bunch of users have come into this article without making accounts, simply using their IPs. I wish to proclaim, to everyone, in all sincerity, that I am in no way connected to any of them.
As for any alleged "Meatpuppet Campaign," yes, I made posts on LiveJournal asking for people to come over and review the article. I invite everyone to review the posts. Skinwalker has conveniently gone through the trouble of tracking them down, and they are available in the RfC he's preparing agaisnt me. Several LJ Users voiced distress, and I offered advice. This happens all the time in Wikipedia's IRC channel. This is far from an organized campaign, and I dispute the claim firmly.
I'm do not know where all of these IP users came from. In the event that they did come from LiveJournal, I have edited the LJ posts I made, asking any users who came to Wikipedia to read through an introduction to Wikipedia, and to create an account. I also put emphasis against Personal attacks. I can't do anything more about it. If you feel this is untrue, then please, please, bring it up to me, before your decide to take up other peoples' time with the issue. I know I make mistakes, and I try to fix them when I can. I like people to tell me when they think I make them, as obviously, I don't realize all of them.
Personal Attacks: I called Idleguy "ignorant." In the atmosphere I've developed in, that's not anything close to an attack. I do apologize if anyone took offense to it, as they seem to have. I came out of the exchange feeling attacked as well. We seem to have had a cultural misunderstanding. I'll refrain from the practice of using that word as such in this environment (on Wikipedia). This is the only personal attack I remember anyone bringing to me. If you have others, please tell me. Otherwise, please stop saying that I am attacking anyone. It was an isolated incident, and we both seem to have gotten over it. Why can't you? Stop bringing it up.
During the time I was gone, a bunch of anonymous users seem to have popped up here. However, none popped up at any of the other articles I am concerned with (Scottish Clans; view my contributions if you're interested). I refute any claims that are made to connect me with these users.
I in no way endorse the attacks that were made upon anyone in my absence, or any attacks for that matter. I want to make that clear, and final. If you have something against me, then be honest. Please. It's all I can ask of you. I want to work things out. I suggest everyone who wishes to contribute to the process of creating an encyclopedic article out of Veganism read through Intercultural communication principles. Canaen 09:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi
This is a response to Skinwalker's RFC on Canaen.
Rather than straight talking language, some folk prefer to use clever legalistic attacks on individuals such as the way that Skinwalker is using on Canaen.
In the context of the Wiki, this is an ad hominem where his intellectual powers failed to persuade the consensus on the discussion page.
Skinwalker failed to get his way with regard to muddying of the waters with anorexia just as Idleguy had done previously with the met industry's pollution. So what happened her is they conspired to attack Canaen with the use of a meatpuppet called Viriditas employing all the trick they can like making false allegation, lying, official complaints and so on.
I would like to point out that in British English the word nark is non-pejorative and I understand that it has an objective meaning something akin to a " snitch " in American. That is, meaning someone that makes, often erroneous, allegations to authorities in order to personally benefit themselves in some way. It is certianly a lot less intentionally insulting than to be continuously called a meatpuppet or, I am sure, for user Canaen to be accused of having some connection with me when he has none.
The funniest thing for me is that Skinwalker is busy digging a hole in his own canoe because his allegations are outright lies of which he can in no way substantiate.
This conflict started because Skinwalker insisted on posting data refering to anorexics on the Vegan topic which had no relationship to veganism whatsoever.
Skinwalker is entirely wrong. I know this because I know who I am and I know with whom I have and have had connections and I take a very minor little offence at being accused by the likes of you of being something I am not. I state " very minor little offence " because you and your views genuinely are so unimportant.
Skinwalker is an individual of very little decency and integrity. I do not state this as an insult but as an objective statement. Skinwalker has been told on many occasions that I have no connection with this or the other individuals and yet he not only continue to go on making such allegations but Skinwalker even uses them as the ground to make an attack on another individual. 195.82.106.78 22:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Please be advised that I have filed a user conduct RFC on you. It can be found here. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
195.82.106.78 22:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
While it seems there is no link demonstrated by scientific study between veganism and anorexia, it appears that some pro-ana internet communities do support it as a method of "hiding" anorexia. Note: I still don't care if anorexia is mentioned or not in the article as my previous vote suggests. Just thought the information should be there... - FrancisTyers 00:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
195.82.106.14 00:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Personal attack by 195.82.106.78 removed.
This paragraph is marked for removal to vegetarian or semi-vegetarian. Nidara 07:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Criticisms have also focused on the prevalence of eating disorders within the vegan and vegetarian communities. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders often predate the adoption of a vegan/vegetarian diet (O'Connor et al., Medical Journal of Australia, 1987;147(11-12):540-2). Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder. Studies of college women show that a significantly higher proportion of women who do not consume animal protein than those who do are likely to display distorted eating attitudes and beliefs [38]. Also, self-reported teenage vegans and vegetarians are more likely to be dissatisfied with their bodies and to be involved in both healthy and unhealthy weight control practices [39].
These are vegan-specific references that belong on this page. In light of RFC responders suggesting that it's OK if it has references, I'm adding it back in. I'll post a draft later today that we can talk about. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Since there has been no objection to my most recent draft of the anorexia section, I am putting it in. Comments? We need to talk more about which sources are allowed for this article. I won't insert any source in the future that does not refer specifically to vegans, but we should come to a consensus on what we consider a "good source". There aren't a lot of good guidelines for what Wikipedia considers a proper citation, especially in cases where scientific sources are used. Here are some questions we should consider:
Cheers, Skinwalker 21:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed this until citations are found or it even has any relevance. To have any relevance it should be proved here that vegan diets cause more death than non-vegan diets. Nidara 07:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is the paragraph removed:
Some critics argue that many animals are also killed in the production of vegan foods. For example, enormous numbers of insects, rodents, and snakes are killed in the production of grain. Many vegans counter that a truly harmless lifestyle is impossible in their situation, and note that raising livestock requires more field animals to die than plant-based subsistence.
For a change, I thought I'd like to examine a non-contentious part of the topic, the cuisine section. I have proposed an alternative edit that put veganism at the heart of it reather than meatism.
The bit I am not sure about is " ... most vegans prefer to cook without reference to meat ... ".
This is not something that exactly warrants scientific references but from over 20 years personal experience I would say it is almost universally true.
Comments? 195.82.106.14 00:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey, heres an an ironical way of making my point (or maybe its off topic and colouring my brandy soaked 'NPOV' judgement???) - my 20 year old life-long vegan daughter has just this minute come back from her work Xmas meal for which she paid £45. Despite weeks ago requesting 'nut roast' which was supposedly on the menu (but would still have been a rip-off if you ask me...) she had to make do with a 'vegetable platter' of brussel sprouts, cabbage, boiled carrots, etc. Complaining about discrimination in the morning?? You bet we will be... Then theres all that shit in the article in the 'critisisms' section about how some non-vegans may resent the extra effort of accommodating the vegan diet. Maybe they shouldn't be in the fucking catering trade if they can't fucking 'cater' then????? quercus robur 01:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a question about American punctuation as I realise that the majority of contributors to the Wiki appear to come from North America and many are college age.
Now, I can cope with a 'z' instead of a 's' here and there and so on [ and I am grateful for my own typos being picked up ] but in British English - and let's face it, we invented it - we have a rule against placing a 'comma' before an 'and' in general use.
I went through this article to remove these once before but notice them creeping back in. Special purposes, yes. Generally, no.
Do you guys allow this or is it just as bad punctuation as it looks to us? Thanks. 195.82.106.14 01:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Vegans reject dairy and meat, though vegetarians consume all but meat. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.32.30.130 ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 18 December 2005.
I agree that there should be some mention older terminology
-- Salix alba ( talk) 10:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I read this article through, and apart from odd parts where syntax and spelling might need looked at, it looks ok to me. I made some corrections.
Could somebody please say why it has a clean up tag? It looks balanced, with various points of view expressed in a considered way, so some of the intensive editing has been worthwhile I think, allowing the recording of what can be very opposing points of view. Veganism is a fairly revolutionary idea, in the context of established eating and social habits and ideologies, so it is going to get a lot of edits.
It's great that we haven't really failed completely to express and consider all of the relevant points of view.
TonyClarke 19:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Should we not move more of the Vegan nutrition section off to the Vegan nutrition topic and replace it with an introductory paragraph?
At present the so called main article is a lot smaller than the section in the Vegan topic. 195.82.106.14 02:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't particularly care one way or the other where the nutrition info goes... sticking it in its own article could improve the page. However, I'm not sure about this "complete protein myth" stuff. I didn't like the PDCAAS discussion before (too technical, and technically unsound at that), and I'm not convinced either for or against the complete protein "myth". Both sides seem to come from fairly pseudoscientific sources. I suppose a "complete protein" would be one that provides all essential amino acids in adequate amounts? I don't see why one single vegetable ingredient (like beans, for example) couldn't meet that standard if its amino acid content is known. On the other hand, if one ingredient doesn't provide enough of or all of the essential AAs, you have to supplement it with one other ingredient to get full nutrition. I'd like to see some verification of this, preferably from a nutrition journal, and not from "scientists" who make a living selling diet books. Cheers, Skinwalker 20:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad to see anorexia addressed in the article. You seem like an excellent group of editors. Regarding definitions of vegetarianism, what I see discussed here on talk I'm not sure I'd agree with. Vegetarianism has many different definitions. The situation is somewhat analogous to kosher diets: there's a spectrum of practice. Those on the stricter side often regard more lenient practices as less than genuine. Some self-defined vegetarians eat dairy, egg, fish, and poultry. Some self-defined vegans who otherwise avoid animal products make an exception for the milk and egg ingredients in bread. Best wishes. Durova 04:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that if a contentious contributor Skinwalker is maing statements such as calling vegans " veggie-brandishing hordes " on another user finally comes out on Member user page calling's page.
This is an issue to be discussed as it clearly sets out a bias especially if that other member has attacked without consultation, see ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Member#NPOV_on_Veganism Member is the contributor that came along and slapped a " {{totallydisputed}} " on the topic without so much as engaging consensus claiming that " The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed ". When Skinwalker went to try and find an ally on his discussion page and warn him , we are " really nasty ", the only reason for slapping a " totallydisputed " tag on us Member could state was; " I can't name any specifics other than the "pigs in crates" picture. Overall the artcle seems to exhibit a form of pro-vegan bias. I'll look at it more ". Member had not even read the topic! Skinwalker did not like the photo either. Perhaps too close to the truth?
The "pigs in crates" picture is seems fair enough to illustrate the argument between the so-called " animal welfare " of the meat industry against the argument of extending " rights " to animals and humane lifestyles.
What is the consensus on this? I have moved the imaged next to the ethics paragraph where it seems ot relate better.
The " totallydisputed " tag said " Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. " But I cant see any comment from Member. 195.82.106.127 05:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with Viriditas consistently editing off my comments from the discussion page and understand this is against etiquette.
It would not seem to be democratic to me and a challenge to freedom of speach.
Since there appears to be some confusion about how talk pages are used, I'm going to post the following links for those who are interested in reading further:
WP:TP: Talk pages are used to discuss how to improve the article. Talk pages are not a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how different points of view should be included in the article so that the end result is neutral. Partisan debates do not align with the mission of Wikipedia, and get in the way of the job of writing an encyclopedia. Arguing as a means of improving an article is considerably less effective than an equal amount of time engaged in research.
-- Viriditas 00:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
"Vegetarianism" in this context, refers to veganism, which is often described as "strict vegetarianism" (see Mosby p.1797) or in the case of the ADA, as a "total vegetarian". [69] -- Viriditas 01:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Due to six reverts by an anonymous editor who engages in nothing but personal attacks, vandalism, and edit warring, I've added the totally disputed tag as a result of the removal of sourced criticism from this article. The anonymous vandal claimed that the content has nothing to do with veganism, but that is false. Brenda Davis is a vegan dietitian, and her book that is quoted concerns vegan diets. The content about vegetarian female atheletes refers to ADA's use of the term which includes veganism, as does the ADA's warning about adolescents with eating disorders, specifically their opinion that "vegetarian diets may be selected to camouflage an existing eating disorder". This refers to veganism. -- Viriditas 03:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could add a blurb under the second-to-last paragraph in the ethical criticisms section about how, because vegans typically eat on a lower trophic level than non-vegans, less crop land would need to be cultivated if everyone were vegan. (of course this completely ignores problems with crop subsidies. Also, about the 1.8 billion animals figure, more than ten billion animals are killed for food in the US. I think putting these counterpoints are important because they are required to give depth to the issue and give some way for readers to see how good his arguments really are (especially since, if it is true how he states it, it undermines the reason most people are vegan). ( RedBLACKandBURN 01:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC))
People also choose veganism to minimize their impact on the earth. Several friends of mine use this ecological footprint argument. Could that be included under the ethics section?
I just read in the news that a deficiency of Vitamin D (which comes mainly from animal sources, except for UV sun exposure) could produce similar symptoms as B-12 deficiency. Could someone add this to the article? It's worth looking into. Badagnani 06:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Other websites mention several other risks of Vitamin D deficiency besides cancer, including high blood pressure, depression, immune system conditions, osteoporosis, etc. Had no idea that fortified non-dairy beverages could have Vitamin D of animal origin. Scary. Badagnani 09:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
How stringent are most vegans? I mean, do they use plastic products, even though plastic is made from petroleum, and petroleum is an animal product? User:Zoe| (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
While my personal opinion is that the current wording of the article makes the Criticism sections superfluous (if not just short of invective), I have a specific concern regarding the paragraph about Prof. Allen's study.
1) There is no reliable reference to the study. A great many internet sources claim the study was essentially bogus, and there was wording to this effect in the article sometime in the past.
2) If the study is bogus, what in the world is it doing in the article, much less in its current, unqualified form?
3) I suggest we remove the paragraph until we can ideally read the study ourselves. It seems to be too controversial a study at the moment to be included, unqualified, in the article.
In general most of the Criticism section just makes for a really bad encyclopedia article. Most of the paragraphs are highly duplicitous (the Allen example above), inflammatory, or irrelevant.
I urge all involved in this article to cool their passions and abide by logic and aesthetic tastefulness. This is not Usenet. We are not trying to convince anyone to become vegan, nor are we trying to prove its depravity. We merely are trying to inform people about what constitutes the vegan philosophy and lifestyle. The current article smacks of controversy a bit too much to do this.
The stretching that goes on in this article belies mal-intent. I close with an example. Operating under the assumption we are merely trying to inform, rather than discuss and debate, there is no reason that the article happens to mention a theological argument that animals feel no pain just because earlier the article mentions vegans are motivated by reducing what they see as animal suffering. A scientific argument might, just barely, be relevant, but a theological one?
Remember, we don't need to add paragraphs about the philosophical and scientific errancy of sexism and racism in every article about a sexists or racist person. Cheers to all. Shawn M. O'Hare 18:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The Allen study is not a valid study of veganism. The BBC article itself explains that the experiment consisted of giving malnourished children either 2oz of meat, 1 cup of milk, or an equivalent amount of OIL. Because children did best on the meat as compared to drinking pure fat, she concludes veganism is unhealthy. Who can possibly think this has any scientific value? It should be pulled or a comment added about its flawed comparison. AstroVegan 18:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems very much to me that the following would be much better fitted in a criticism of Intensive farming:
As I believe I've mentioned to several current editors, Vegans don't neccessarily utilize Intensive farming, and are usually more inclined toward small-scale, organic farming methods, for many reasons. These include the unneccessary death of insects due to pesticides used in intensive farming, the small animals killed in production mentioned above, along with many other reasons specific to individuals.
So... why is this bit here? Canaen 02:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Jerrymander, I'm sorry to revert your edits, but the language wasn't consistent with our editing policies, which say we have to write from a neutral point of view (NPOV), and not state point of view (POV) as fact. It might help if you were to review some of our policies, particularly WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 09:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that the health section of the article says,"Vegetarians have been anecdotally reported to have favorably lower body mass indexes than people who eat flesh, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease. However, no cause and effect relationship between vegetarian diets and these health benefits has been scientifically established."
I'm not sure that the facts are anecdotal in nature. For instance, in the book The China Study, after rather convincingly linking the consumption of animal protein to the growth of cancer, an increase in the risk of heart disease, and other western diseases such as diabetes, Collin Campbell goes on to say, on page 242, "The findings of the China Study indicate that the lower the percentage of animal-based foods that are consumed, the greater the health benefits-even when the percentage declines from 10% to 0% of calories. So it's not unreasonable to assume that the optimum percentage of animal-based products in zero..."
This is hardly random spouting, but rather information backed by a decades long study of the relation between diet and disease.
The article could probably afford to be slightly less conservative given the weight of the evidence. Plenty of published medical doctors such as Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Joel Fuhrman say the same thing.
What do you think?-- Rustic Bohemian 01:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Ah...So no opinion? I guess I can go and make the change then? -- 64.72.76.6 23:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The quantity is also important: Eating meat in huge quantities is unhealthy as is eating bread, however many would rather eat two-three greasy meat pizzas or hamburgers than a kilogram of bread & legumes - Eating meat doesn't make anyone automatically fat or unhealthy, nor does eating vegetables make anyone slim and healthy. Overall, if nutritional additives are indeed required then I'd have to say strictly natural vegan diet is less healthy. - G3, 15:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
My question is, avoid insects. Are Vegans allowed to eat insects, because in reality, its impossible to avoid consuming all living things. A lot of insect material gets into vegan foods, and the government has controls for how much is allowed in, but none the less, it gets in. How does this play a part in vegan culture? P.S. I am not vegan, or vegi, nor am I downing the culture, just honestly curious as to this question.
Insects can't suffer - Some don't even have any memory, infact most have probably seen insect repeatedly burn itself to a normal lamp. Saying an insect suffers ie. acknowledges & recognizes pain is pure anthropomorphism (as some would argue is animal suffering and veganism in general). - G3, 15:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I see no mention of the eating disorder (also known as "righteous eating"). GreatGatsby 22:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone, since the last time I bothered to read much of this article has changed the intro, and the definition section, so that the article gives the impression that Veganism is nothing more than a diet. The full quote from the Vegan Society's Articles of Association describing the definition is as follows:
It seems very much to me that The former, rather than the latter should be used as the main defenition in the article, with mention that some self-described Vegans are only so in the Dietary aspect.
In addition, the American Vegan Society's full defenition is as follows:
The current text of our article calls this defenition similar to the British Vegan Society's defenition. To me, at least, this seems much more similar to the full defenition than simply the dietary one.
If whoever removed the full defenition from the article has good reason, I'd like to hear it; otherwise I plan to bring it back. Canaen 02:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
This picture promotes an emotional response. It implies that the ethics of veganism are correct. It makes the article biased without adding any useful information about veganism. It should be deleted. -- Jeblis 19:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The picture should stay. Factory farms suck and they are the reason many people adopt veganism. - FrancisTyers 00:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The photo should be deleted, it DOES promote an emotional response, you have to remain neutral here, you're taking activism into the article and that should not be allowed. --The Beorn
vote to retain picture - it's relevant to the article quercus robur 11:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The picture is IMO completely irrelevant to veganism and misleading - The only case it makes is one for more humane treatment of animals. This aspect should be mentioned in the caption too. For that matter, if human treatment of animals is primary concern for vegans, then would they eat meat of naturally died animals like for an example an antelope killed by a lion and left half uneaten? - G3, 15:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, having read the arguments for keeping the photo, and those against keeping it, I have to say the "keep" contingent is unconvincing. The photo is clearly intended to provoke an emotional response, while at the same time failing to provide insight into the subject. More importantly, the photo does not in any way depict suffering animals. Please save your rhetoric, there is nothing in the photos suggesting that the animals pictured are suffering. They are simply pigs in a small cage. No argument can be made that the photo definitively depicts ANYTHING other than pigs in a small cage, and one can assume said pigs are unhappy, but absent psychic powers, it is only an assumption. More importantly, please stop being disingenuous. It is frustrating when a group uses contrived arguments in obvious attempts to push their POV. We all know what the intent of including the photo is, so stop acting like we're idiots please.
Veganism featured on the front page of the UK newspaper The Independent An ethical diet: The joy of being vegan a firly interesting read. Key points
There may well be info worth includeing from the article. -- Salix alba ( talk) 12:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If this is an inappropriate place for comment, if someone could move it I would appreciate it.. as a casual reader of the article, it seems that the "full British definition" is mentioned way, way too often. I think we have understood it by the first two or three times we've read it. -- Kitsune818 12:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but it seems kind of strange to have vegetarian sushi as an example of vegan cooking - there's not much cooking there beyond making the rice. Maybe change the caption to vegan cuisine or get a picture of a different dish?
In any case, minor complaint. -- 220.9.84.29 12:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
User:CountZ put a NPOV tag on this article, saying "The "motivations" section reads like a puff piece for veganism, especially in how it extols the vegan diet. Requires rewrite for neutral point of view." However, the points made in the motivations section are countered in the criticisms section, which is nearly twice as long. I suggest removing NPOV. Kellen T 09:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
just in case no one has noticed. this article contain three times the same definition sentence. you really hammered it home here trueblood 19:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Lest the edit warring should continue, I wonder if those who quibble over how the caption ought to be formatted might explain their reasoning here, in order that a consensus should be sought; the dueling versions, incidentally, are here. I think the shorter version to be preferable, principally for two reasons: (a) it does not draw a conclusion apropos of whether the pigs can move (even as I am confident that Canaen's version is accurate, we oughtn't to draw conclusions where such drawing is unnecessary; a reader can surely ascertain the condition of the pigs without the caption's saying it, and our saying it verges on WP:OR); and, (b) it better focuses on the subject of the article (were the topic of the article animal abuse, Canaen's version might well suffice; here, though, animal abuse is discussed only tangentially, as a reason for one's veganism--the caption, then, ought to focus on the abuse-vegan nexus, and Canaen's version omits any reference to such nexus and doesn't attempt to conflate the picture and the topic of the article). The image exists to illustrate a reason for which some people lead a vegan lifestyle, not to offer commentary as to that reason (even if the commentary is, as in this case, altogether in accord with my sentiments); whether the pigs can turn around is largely irrelevant to veganism, inasmuch as most would nevertheless oppose factory farming even were the pigs permitted to turn around, and so the detail is unnecessary and unencyclopedic, especially/at least for this article. Joe 22:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
How's this one from the WikiCommons. The caption is open for improvement, but this is the basic point that I would make. Femto 12:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've put up a proposed compromise caption... "Female pigs in factory farms used for breeding, confined to gestation crates. [74] Factory farming is one of the most common ethical reasons given for veganism citation needed" I'm sure someone will revert it soon enough, but I thought I'd put it up so we can try it out and get new reactions. Coelacan 02:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The indenting is all screwy here, so this looks out of place:
But I'd be fine with this. Mainly I want the crates labelled, and a link to factory farming in with it. We could use an article on Gestation Crates, for that matter. Canaen 06:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm taking out the stuff on Sylvester Graham. My rationale: While Graham did caution against low-quality milk, "marketplace milk, much of which came from cows fed on leftover distillery mash (swill), with the anemic, liquor-inflected product made presentable by the addition of chalk, plaster of Paris, and molasses", [76] he did not advocate a vegan diet. "Butter should be used "very sparingly." Fresh milk and eggs were frowned upon but not proscribed. Cheese was permitted only if mild and unaged." [77] "Enjoy pure milk, fresh cheeses and eggs in moderation." [78] "Modern dieticians aren't as strongly opposed to meat as he was (although they'd certainly advise fish and poultry rather than red meat), and they'd go easy on the fat- and cholesterol-laden milk, cheese, and eggs he recommended." [79] Coelacan 16:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
just thought i point this out again, the definition comes three times in different paragraphes and it gives the impression of brainwashing. i don't wanna mess with this since there so many devoted vegans here but i think the article would benefit from deleting two. trueblood 20:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The "Environmental Vegetarianism" article that is linked to in this section is well flushed-out, but the relationship to veganism is not made. I plan to re-write it to frame the linked article and tie it into veganism. I'm posting this first since this is a controversial topic and I haven't been part of the discussion up to this point. Any comments before I get underway? -- TimTL 19:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the sub-headers under "Motivations" to all be nouns. For example, the sub-header for the last topic was "Feminist motivations" and I changed it to "Feminism", which is less redundant and conforms to the other sub-headers. -- TimTL 19:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The beginning of the Criticism section was particularly disorganized with no introductory statement. It launched right into some of the hard aspects of a vegan diet without context. I added a difficulty section and organized the concerns into areas of life that are affected by the vegan diet. I did some minor amount of text editting as well; I'm happy to discuss changes : ] -- TimTL 01:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks good to me PrettyMuchBryce 23:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Why has [80] been removed as linkspam? It seems appropriate enough. If I don't see a compelling argument to the contrary then I will add it back myself. - MichaelBluejay 02:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
regarding legality of 100m records, see Ben Johnson -- frymaster 03:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
the article says: "People become vegans for a variety of reasons, including a concern for animal rights, health benefits, religious, political, ethical, environmental, and spiritual concerns.". but i cannot understand how the 'animal rights' reason to be a vegan is different from the 'ethical' reason.
maybe there's some ethical reason to be a vegan that has nothing to do with animal rights that i never heard of.
i would prefer just "ethical" (not "animal rights") were left in place if this subissue gets sorted out. lakitu 05:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Let me know what you think. - Solar 10:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This is hardly a standard vegan position. I suggest removing it. Kellen T 18:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
This whole articles is rife with citations that either 1) only claim to support standard vegetarianism or 2) claim health benefits to certain practices that vegans have but are not exclusive to veganism. For example, [82] is not an argument for veganism itself. It's an argument against drinking dairy milk. Worse still, this citation is used against an omnivorous diet, which doesn't itself contain many dairy products in most of the world or require consumption of dairy products anywhere.
This is analogous to implying that because Kosher Jews can't eat bacon, that non-Kosher Jews must eat bacon and concluding that a Kosher diet must be healthier because it lacks bacon. That's clearly flawed logic.
I'm honestly tempted to gut half the cites from this article and throw up {{fact}} templates. -- Davidstrauss 11:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Here are some questionable citations and claims:
bovine leukemia virus or an AIDS-like virus as well as concern for childhood diabetes."
This is just an analysis of two sections. I'll try to cover more soon. -- Davidstrauss 03:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
ok, many people eat exactly like a vegan but don't care at all about "philosophies", "ideologies", "spiritual enlightments", and that stuff and they usually do it for health reasons. what are those people called. "nothingarians"?, "would-be-vegans-but-we-don't-want-them-to-be-because-we-like-politics-ians"? or what -- fs 02:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
A bit of googling reveals that not all self-called vegans agree whether veganism excludes honey since it may be theoretically consumed without harming insects or plants or because more insects may be harmed in the production of sugar and that may even make its avoidance anti-vegan, and similar reasons. I think it deserves to be mentioned that it's not a clear area even though it's probably excluded in a "primary" definition. -- fs 03:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I have recently completed (or started, depending on your point of view) a major research paper regarding veganism. This talk page is constantly changing, and very long, but if anyone is looking for citations regarding virtually anything in regards to veganism, let me know. I have hundreds of primary sources sitting in a file of photocopies next to me, most of the involving nutrition, but also about issues as diverse as cancer rates, biblical passages and the societal pressures of eating meat. It has been difficult for me to tell which areas still need more citation, so if anyone is looking for a piece of academic work to support our cause, I probably have an example sitting next to me right now. Let me know. -- Sometimes 07:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I would dispute the removal of the link to Movement for Compassionate Living (though am not prepared to go to war over it... :)
MCL were formed by kathleen jannaway who was secretary of the UK Vegan Society, and an important pioneer of the British vegan movement from the 40s onwards. She founded MCL as a 'breakaway' from the Vegan Society in 1984 when the VS decided to become more 'mainstream', ie, much of the money that was held by the VS with the intention of eventually creating some kind of vegan based land project got ploughed into making the Vegan magazine more glossy and 'accessable' and various other marketing projects. Jannaway felt that this was not the direction she wanted the society to move in and consequently set up MCL, which promoted the 'ecological veganism' that the 'old' vegan society held up as an ideal. The publications of the MCL such as 'Abundant Living in the Coming Age of the Tree', which argues for the phasing out of animal farming in favour of tree crops that can meet all human needs are visionary and important though currently under-recognised contributions to the wider debates around not only veganism but ecological sustainablity.
In terms of their ideas and what they add to the development of vegan thought and philosophy MCL have a long pedigree and are at least as important as some of the other oranisations linked to such as Vegan Outreach etc.
I strongly feel the link is appropriate in this article and should be re-instated, but will abide by consensus on the matter. quercus robur 22:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I providing a linkable reference for someone to post in the article and get rid of this moronic claim that vegans have higher anorexic rates. Actually, it should be removed immediatly. The article main article I believe you are refering to is [ [1]]. Another you refer to is [ [2]] which has no reference to anorexia and the only reference to vegan simply gives a definition to vegan. The third article you refer to is [ [3]] which also as absolutely no reference to "vegans".
There is absolutly no reference in any of these studies backing up what 'Skinwalker's claim "Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder."
Skinwalkers's latest edit is a revert stating that there is "no consensus on the talk page for removing this material" However, Skinwalker never talks but rather just does revisions as he sees fit. Apparently he spends much of his time on this as well. HMMM. Idleguyspal. 01 December 2005
Right now only there is only positive analyses of Vegan ethics, i feel that some inconsistencies should be pointed out, maybe I went to far with suicide, but the paradox of eating fruit by vegans while 1000's of insects were killed in its production is relevant-- Hq3473 01:46, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you really care about the destruction of the small animals? Why should I care so much as you? Vagot 06:02, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Vagot 06:03, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I see no reason to remove ny comment about cannibalism. Since product derived from humans are not considered "animal", veganism in prinicple does not prohibit cannibalism. In fact some vegans do argue that by not eating its own dead humans are wasting a valuable sustainable resourse. -- Hq3473 01:42, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
How about we forget this cannibalisim nonsense and try some HuFu. The vegan souce for mock HUMAN meat.
This is ridiculous, we must eat something so we eat things that cause the least amount of harm. Can we at least have conversations with an inkling of common sense.
I am sorry to raise these two issues in the same breath but, firstly, as it directly relates to this topic, I would like to point out that Donald Watson founder of the Vegan Society and inventor of the world sadly passed away aged 95 (1910-2005) on 16th November at his home in the north of England.
It death is a great loss to us all and but reaching such a fine age, he was a great example to the world if the realities of the vegan diet and lifestyle. Donald had been vegan for more than 60 years. Dates added to topic page.
---
Please excuse the headlining of this edit but as one individual Idleguy seems to be using threats of reporting and accusation of vandalism to subvert this topic with his own politics, I would like to raise this to the top.
There has been much discussion of the inclusion by Idleguy of a environemental critique of veganism using a case statistics that are actually about deforestation caused by an increase in soya bean production when that soya bean production is for the meat industry and an argument against rice production in face of meat production on the basis that certain forms of rice production use a lot of water, ignoring that meat production uses as much as 10 times more. The non sequitors in his arguments have been pointed out many times by more than one source on both this and his own talk pages but he continues to ignore them
Now, simply put, neither soya nor rice are synonymous with vegan.
If there are issues arising from their production then they belong on a relative webpage not a disassociated one.
As much as I welcome a proper scientific environmental critique of vegan diet, this is not it. Indeed, I think an environmental critique is going to be one of the weakest critiques of veganism possible.
The vegan topic has grown too long and under the guidelines needs to be shorter. It cannot grow to accomodate every claim and rebuttal. The intention of the Wiki is to define topics, offer links and source for further study. It ought not be a political soapbox or discussion forum, there are plenty of those elsewhere. This current edit - without the meat industry's soya beans argument- is just under the maximum.
I have worked hard to remove many duplications, correct punctuation and remove unnecessary flab to get it back within the limits. No essential information is lost. There may be the odd typo but I suggest we work with it as it is. In truth, it would make a better contribution if it were shorter again
Question ;
" All and everything " topics can only expand so far.
Idleguy, by your own userpage you are not expert in this topic either by scientific education nor personal experience. Stop trying to use terminology such as " vandalism " and threats of reporting to support your POV. Open your mind to take on board what is being said to you.
The addition of "Criticism of environmental motivations of vegans" is a meat eater activist attack and has no place in this article. After all, is it a motivation for those who have adopted veganism based on the fact that rice is a water hog? If any vegans have become vegan because rice is innefficient I would like to see some source material or a study backing it. Bink 18:20, 8 Nov 2005
This is my initiation of discussion for my edit. Please respond.
Please respond in a super clear explanation of why it is that vegans become vegan because it is environmentally irresponsible. Do you have source material? Most vegans do believe it is environmentally responsible to conduct their diet in such a way. The general effects of certain farming practices is an interesting subject, but does not relate to motivation of most vegans, which is the section in question as far as neutrality. Bink 17 Nov 2005
Respond
personal attack by user FarkinVigger removed -- Doc ask? 17:27, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I was simply illustrating a point here. It was not a personal attack in anyway, as I was responding to the latest edit on the article by 64.203.165.126 who stated on the opening paragraph "All vegans are f--gots." This is the personal attack you should be concerned with. This is the type of thing perpetuated by these edit wars that is getting out of hand. FarkinVigger 13:34, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed a paragraph from Criticism and controversy section. It is POV and not backed by any source material: "Criticisms have also focused on the prevalence of eating disorders within people espousing a vegan lifestyle. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation. Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder." FarkinVigger 15:30, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Cheers, Skinwalker 23:54, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Skinwalker, do you spell vegetarian vegitarian?
I don't, yet you lend yourself to it so well since you can't even spell vegitarian. What are you mysterious one? It is an enigma that I am dying to know. but lets stay on point here. I want some source material.
WishinWhite 4:54, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
You negative and taunting attidute is not helping you, and neither is your sockpuppetry (multiple IPs and signing comments with several nonexistent user names). I gave references that anyone can look up either in the cited journals or by *properly* using pubmed. Do you know how to look up scientific paper abstracts? Did you RTFM on article searching on pubmed? If you can rationally build a consensus on this talk page for removing my edits, go ahead. If that happens, fine, I won't complain. Otherwise, I consider this exchange pointless. I get the distinct feeling that I have unwittingly fed a troll. Skinwalker 22:27, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
There is absolutly no reference in any of these studies backing up what your claim "Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder."
The section about health and veganism is absolutely flawed. There is for example no evidence whatsoever that meat is generally unhealthy - to the contrary. This article needs to be marked with a bias warning, it is a shame as it is to be part of an encyclopedia.
I second that, this whole veganism page seems more of an advertism for veganism then a neutral article.
RESPONSE: Go take a health class at your community college. The human body has *adapted* to meat-eating, but we're not built for it (our intestines are too long, our saliva is acidic, etc), and therefore obtaining nutrients from vegan food is preferable to obaning the same nutrients in the same qualities from meat, not only due to the cholesterol and natural hormones present in meat, but also due to the added chemicals and growth hormones.
The human body has *adapted* to meat-eating
http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet.asp
Indeed, thousands of years of adapting (evolution perhaps?). Humans have always been omnivores, hunters scavengers if you will. Given that Chimpanzees are omnivorous, you would have a pretty good case for at elast 4 million. Is Gorilla hunting documented? I've heard rumours but never seen anything conclusive. If you could find that, you could easily double your timescale. (16/05/2005)
According to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimpanzee and this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo, only common chimps are really omnivorous, whereas pygmy chimpanzees or bonobos are primarily herbivorous. Given the minor anatomical and genetic differences between the two chimp species, and yet the relatively large difference in diets I'm not sure it makes any sense to use chimps as evidence that humans(with our more pronounced differences from chimps) were omnivorous throughout prehistory.
Might I even be so bold to say that veganism is unnatural?? Why you ask??? Ok......I'll give you a hint and another www.mercola.com/2005/apr/16/sunlight_vegans.htm unreliable fringe source? HINT!]
While not necessarily negating that theory, it has also been suggested that consuming vegetables with small amounts of dirt on them (which is how they most likely would have been consumed during most of human history) could provide enough b12 for a healthy human diet. It may also be that washing vegatables is "unnatural".
Go take a health class at Harvard
Strange, I think you made an enormous typo, don't you mean PETA College?
Check out an article on the natural human diet http://www.goveg.com/naturalhumandiet.asp
Consumption of meat has been linked to heart disease, obesity, and some forms of cancer. The most effective treatment for a person with heart disease is a switch to a low-sodium, low-fat, vegan diet. Most reputable nutritionist' advocate a vegetarian diet, check the Physician's Committee for Responible Medicine (PCRM) if you dispute any of these comments.-- Baumstev 15:18, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
The Physician's Committee for Responible Medicine is group that has been widely criticized for being associated with PETA. It is not a good source for use in an unbias article. Stop using goveg.com as a source for information either as it is obviously a pro-vegan website. Most scientists agree man is omnivorous. Man can not digest cellulose, a prime component in plants. (I never eat plants, especially grass with all that nasty cellulose, they're yucky) Just look at this and tell me man is a herbivore. [10] To say that man is a herbivore is nothing but propaganda created by vegetarians to convert man into a vegetarian creature. Evidence shows that people were hunter-gathers before the advent of agriculture. The head of the PCRM is not a nutritionist, he is a psychiatrist. He has written on nutrition but is really not a nutritionist. He don't know shit.
? ?, ?, 2005 (UTC)
Goveg.com is not used enough as direct a source in the article, it should however. The Natural Human Diet article on goveg.com, by the way, has pleanty of source material backing it, as does the rest of the site. Just because you don't agree with PETA's marketing aproach doesn't make it a non-realiable source. There are pleanty of well educated and successful vegans (not associated with PETA) in the world, including scientists, docters, nutritionists, athletes, etc.
AntiIdleguy 15:18, 28 November, 2005 (UTC)
I've split the latter portion of "Vegan cuisine" off into this heading because it seems to be an entirely seperate subject. Though most Anarcho-punks do indeed cook somewhat distinctly in comparison to those of Le Cordon Bleu (spelling?), their motivations don't really fit under "cuisine." Canaen 05:06, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
Hey, TonyClarke, not trying to pick on you, but I noticed you changed seafood to sea animals. However, seafood != sea food. I mean, by definition (see Merriam-Webster for example) seafood is "edible marine fish and shellfish." I think this is people's understanding of the word as well and is more common than "sea animals" so it seems using this definition should be allowed. Doesn't need to be a big fight I wouldn't think. If no one changes it back I probably will, but I'll leave it for comments before I do it. Dictionary definitions should be allowed in most cases, I would guess. Superclear 22:36, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
The heroic anon works his wonder to pull this article within the Wiki 30k limit according to the guidelines!
I have put in a lot of work to remove the numerous repetitions, punctuation errors and unnecessary conditionals. Note that in general there is no need for a comma before an and.
Now, there are a few of you both pro-vegan but mostly anti-vegan that are not going to like this but it makes for a better Wiki. It is a good time for less equally more. And, yes, those daft environmental criticisms and Beef Association references got the chop.
Now look, this is meant to be merely an encyclopedia. Not a discussion forum. Not a flame war nor a place to make personal or collective insults and not a personal website.
If you want to discuss the matter further or grind your own personal axe, go start your own webpage and if the sources are good enough we will link to it from here. There is not the room for all and everything.
In the meanwhile, enjoy your veggie-burgers.
anon 06:59, 22 November 2005 (GMT)
anon 14:34, 22 November 2005 (GMT)
I don't see any consensus on this page for large-scale removal of content due to size concerns. There is a documented process for dealing with this situation as outlined in Wikipedia:Article size. The content removals should stop immediately. -- Viriditas 11:32, 23 November 2005 (UTC)
Do we have a cite that actually contests this statement, "A commonly cited (and contested) statistic is that it takes 14 times more land area to support a meat eater than a vegetarian.". Otherwise I feel the paranthetical note should be removed, and will do it myself once I can get some time to research possibile articles that contest the statistic, or someone provides a cite. Shawn M. O'Hare 19:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
While the number is fairly uncertain due to the ambiguous nature of the statement, the general principle of an approximately 10x inefficiency is extremely commonly accepted... Hmm. -- Joehaer 03:24, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
I removed the statement
The same can likely be said about the diet of any developed nation. Specifically, the criticisms deal with consumerism in general, and just happens to focus on a small subset of veganism, thus it is not really relevant to general veganism. The vegan diet as a whole, being just a restriction on the set of all foods, is not inherently reliant on processed foods, but the statement almost suggests this. If someone feels the need to put the statement back in, I suggest adding "However, consumerist veganism is a small subset of veganism proper, which has no inherent reliance on processed foods." or something more clever. Though then the statement just becomes superfluous. Shawn M. O'Hare 19:50, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
The talk page has become bloated and it is time for an archive. One of the admins can archive the page. Tx Idleguy 08:40, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
Yesterday I fixed part of the article listing Wool as a by-product of slaughtered animals. Then, Idleguy reverted to his misinformation. Wool is not a byproduct of anything. Wool production is an industry in its own right, and sheep are raised specifically for wool production. When sheep become too old to produce wool, they are sent to slaughter. Wool is not taken from slaughtered sheep. Yes, this is out of place. However, I cannot just post this on Idleguy's talk page, as it would go unnoticed, and he would be free to ignore it. We cannot confine things like these to User talk pages; it just doesn't work. Issues like this must be brought to the attention of the community. Idleguy appears to have nothing to contribute to this article. All he has done is make trouble with his bias ideas. There has been far too much controversy over his actions, and I suggest something be done to prevent him from continuing this. However, I am not experienced enough in dealing with these issues within the Wikipedia, and thus suggest that someone who has dealt with similar matters on the Wikipedia take further action, after an attempt to reach some sort of consensus. Canaen 02:47, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
Have removed the links to these external sites as I understood that we are trying to keep the links section as lean and on-topic as possible. Whilst personally I agree that such calculators are useful I don't think that they belong on this page. quercus robur 12:52, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I reverted anon's reworking of the eating disorder section, as I felt that his version was needlessly POV and gave a distorted view of the science on vegan/vegetarianism and eating disorders. Does anyone (other than anon) have strong feelings one way or another about the version I reverted to? Thanks, Skinwalker 19:42, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
(following discussion has been moved from Skinwalker edits)
Skinwalker re-inserted false reference to his claims: "Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder."
I rewrote it but it, Skinwalker then reverted it to his POV and he continues to misquote the evidence suggested in his source material. This is serious and others need to take a close look at this. Here is my rewrite of the paragraph which he claims POV:
Regarding the comments about the environment in the "Criticism and controversy" section - these charges may be true, but how are they directly related to people being vegans? They are more of a testament about bad farming practices and environmental concerns. -- Jtalledo (talk) 03:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
The environment section is plainly being dominated by an anti vegan propagandist called "idleguy" who lists "guns" as one of his favourite things. The poor grasp of facts displayed in this section is breathtaking.
I added more data to the section, and our anti vegan gun lover simply changed it back. I have written him a letter challenging him to put up a factual basis for his arguments and as yet have recieved no response. Here is a selection from it :
"Your comment that the production soybeans is encouraging the destruction of the Amazon is correct. Everything you state from that point, that vegans eat lots of soybeans so meat eaters are more environmentally sound, is demonstrably false. A 2003 World Bank Study found in Brazil's Amazon "recent deforestation in significant parts of the region is basically caused by medium- and large-scale cattle ranching". The WWF who you quote as your source, in their Impacts of Soybean report plainly state "The market for soybean products is mostly driven by the livestock feed industry". So do you deny the evidence of the WWF when you mistakenly think it supports your case, but ignore it when it is shown to actually be directly against what you would like to believe? As for your using Greenpeace to give creedence to your argument, I have been a member and volunteer with Greenpeace for years, so if you would like the official position on this matter, which I am sure you don't because it won't agree with what you are saying, I will be happy to provide it.
The assertion in the criticisms section which you removed my reply to, that rice is the leading cause of methane output, also goes against the EPA figures. These figures show that7 rice produces 2 to 3 times less methane worlwide than animal products. If you actually read the report that you quote as backing up your assertions, you would find that the very first table used in the report Table 1 lists Enteric Fermentation (mostly cattle) and animal waste as combined producing well over twice as much methane as rice production. Even this table is old, if you read the IPCC report it states "For instance, intensive studies on emissions from rice agriculture have substantially improved these emissions estimates (Ding and Wang, 1996; Wang and Shangguan, 1996). Further, integration of emissions over a whole growth period (rather than looking at the emissions on individual days with different ambient temperatures) has lowered the estimates of CH4 emissions from rice agriculture from about 80 Tg/yr to about 40 Tg/yr (Neue and Sass, 1998; Sass et al., 1999).".
As for your assertion that rice is damaging because it uses 5,000 litres of water per kilo of grain, government studies in Australia show that a kilo of beef uses between 50,000 to 100,000 litres. Even the article you cite as evidence is talking about the increased use of more efficient methods of rice production which halve the water consumption you selectively quote from the article."
Personally I don't even understand why most of this sort of anti vegan garbage isn't in a "flesh eaters" section. If you want to make an argument about how great murdering defenseless animals and keeping them in factory farms is, create a section and contribute to it. Create your own anti-veganism page, just don't screw up what should be an informative page for everyone else.
People eat meat out of habit and greed, for no higher reason than that they like it. Any pretenses they have that this is some thought out rational, ethical position, come to after considering all the facts, is complete intellectual dishonesty.
Cameron Green
To Mr Green: I'm sorry I couldn't respond immediately as my PC was down during this time.
Let me start by saying that the current veganism article talks primarily about animal meat processed only in the developed world. Your talk about Australian beef also is the same path. Here's some news. In many countries in the developing world like India (which has the world's highest cattle population) cows are not bred mainly for the meat but for their milk. Now each cow produces anywhere from 5 - 20 litres per day. multiply that by the number of productive years in a milch animal and you'll understand that it's not just about a kilo of meat as you project it but tonnes of milk produced in its lifetime. Talking about the farm animals, the bulls and buffaloes are put to multiple purposes in such agriculture oriented economies. They are used in ploughing the fields, transporting people and produce through bullock carts etc. So merely stating that they are raised only to produce meat is also nothing but selective presentation of the same data from a purely western view of the world. Infact the combined uses of the animals far outweigh the problems, contrary to your thinking. The western world my dear friend is NOT the whole world. India has the highest heads of cattle in the world and is the world`s leading producer of carabeef and you would be astounded at the waste that they thrive on. They eat everything from regular paddy and other plants unfit for human consumption to discarded vegetables, waste including sometimes paper. The article if anything currently assumes that animals throughout the world are fed produce exclusively grown for them. The manure is used as a natural fertilizer and so doesn`t produce soil contamination or food residue to the extent produced by chemical fertilizers. Sure, they (manure) do contribute to a miniscule amount of overall methane production, but not greater than the burning of fossil fuel.
Rice emissions have been studied by many including IRRI and has been acknowledged as the leading source of methane gas and one source has been provided within the wikipedia article itself. The reference which you claim to show that the reverse is true, is with all due respects leaving out the "wetland" part which has since been mainly converted to rice cultivation. [15] is yet another newer source that explains clearly what really is the leading contributor of rice emissions.
While it is true that cattle ranching is one of the leading culprits, to project it solely as the main reason is false. Subsistence farming, logging, largescale intensive farming and "development" are, combined take a larger toll according to almost all sources in the amazon alone. Now that you want to expand, here's news that'll shock you. In tropics, the major reason for deforestation is the farming of such pristine forests and not as otherwise projected. [16] will show that they are the primary reasons for deforestation. Thus if one takes the whole world the cause is clear: agriculture takes the first place followed by animals and then others. [17] is another one that gives a global perspective. In fact the article should reflect not just the amazon but also a global perspective exposing that farming is the main culprit worldwide and I'll make changes accordingly.
I believe WWF despite their good intentions still point to only one reason for soybean production. That they are used for cattle feed. A less biased sourced would tell you that soybean contents cannot be consumed entirely by ruminants or humans alone. Both contribute to its production and in sheer dollar terms, the human consumption of soybean is higher than that goes to animal feed. [18] shows the varied uses not mentioned by Greenpeace or WWF If you cannot stomach the fact that your tofu or soy sauce comes from a rainforest being destroyed, then no amount of data can convince you otherwise. Sorry. The fact that I love guns does not inherently label me as a propagandist. I'm just here to correct facts .
Your line "People eat meat out of habit and greed, for no higher reason than that they like it" is a sweeping statement that intends to pass value judgements on entire populations few of whom you have had real contact with. A trip to Africa and Asia should clear many of those misconceived notions of how the world works.
Cheers Idleguy 18:05, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Your line "A trip to Africa and Asia should clear many of those misconceived notions of how the world works" is a sweeping statement that intends to pass value judgements on entire populations few of whom you have had real contact with. More than likely, Many vegans have gone to Africa and Asia and many other third world countries. Do you see how childish this is Idleguy? Don't you have anything better to do?
Cheers Anti-Idleguy 26 November 2005
There is plenty of source material out there on the subject of the environmental degradation due to inefficient agricultural practices. In fact, livestock takes a lions share of it (directly or indirectly). I would like to compile a list of reputable sources, with the help of those interested in getting down the facts (vegan and non-vegan). Many vegans who factor environmental concern in their decision have seen statistics on meat to grain ratios, percentages of water usage in livestock production, percentages of land use in livestock prodution, comparative energy usage, top soil loss, fecal contamination of water supply, and even starvation rates.
Although Rice is produced at a rate of 1550 to 2000 litres of water to 1 kilo of grain, beef is produced at a rate between 50,000 to 100,000 litres of water to 1 kilo of meat. [19] How about a little veg/omni cooperation on this? Just the facts maam.
I made an edit on the ratios because it is quoting the Australian study. The list of references below should give clarification to some of the questions we all have. The chicken water usage quoted by FrancisTyers also quotes rice at 2,700 not 5,000 litres of water. It also states in this article that vegetarians use far less virtual water than non-vegetarians. Interesting article, thanks. Vigger 5:16, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Amount of soy grown in United States consumed by livestock: 90% Amount of corn grow in United States consumed by livestock: 80% Amount of total U.S. grain production consumed by livestock: 70%
IF EVERYONE LIVED LIKE YOU, WE WOULD NEED 1.2 PLANETS. ^___^ - FrancisTyers 01:45, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe I have fixed the best foot forward calculator link. The foreward slash at the end messes the link up somehow. Idleguyspal 05:01, 1 December 2005 (UTC)
FOOD AND AGRICULTURE ORGANIZATION OF THE UNITED NATIONS
Worldwatch This site seems to provide more "global" data that could be used to give a worldwide perspective.
Dairy ecological footprint study
GRACE Global resource action center for the environment
John Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health Global Food Security
I think this almost warrants a separate article, Veganism and the environment. Has there been any research done into the airmiles used by the exotic foods that vegans (at least the ones I know) enjoy (I'm not talking just about tofu)? What is the total environmental impact of equal amounts of tofu-chicken versus a free-range organically produced chicken? I realise only a subsection of the vegan population eats "tofu chicken", but then there is a subsection of the meat-eating population that eats "only locally produced, free-range organic meat". - FrancisTyers 21:01, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Italicized lines are what I have removed.
In most Asian countries, where rice is the staple food, plant cultivation is the most prevalent cause of environmental damage. The cultivation of paddy requires far greater quantity of water than most crops grown in Europe/America. Cultivating a single kilogram of rice requires 5,000 litres of water [26] and thus places a huge stress on the water supply far higher than would be needed for animal husbandry. In fact rice cultivation is seen as the main culprit behind methane emissions. [27]
Rice is not inherently linked ot Veganism. Some Vegans, and some Ominvores, and someone of probably every such orientation, choose to omit rice from their diets for the above information, but it has absolutely nothing to do with Veganism as-is. It is perfectly good information (besideds the second-to-last line), but it just doesn't belong here. Furthermore, the large amount of Rice Cultivation is not present because of Vegans; it is present because of Asian cultures, who have used Rice as a dietary staple since antiquity.
No where in the article is Rice Cultivation promoted. I see no reason for a criticism of Rice Cultivation anywhere in this article. Canaen 09:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Furthermore, the increase in soybean consumption - a product used in many vegan and non-vegan foods and in US cattle feed - has led to concerns over its environmental impact. Greenpeace have complained that soybean cultivation in Brazil is encouraging Amazon rainforest deforestation. The increase in soyabean cultivation and extensive farming has led to losing large tracts of forest land leading to ecological damage as per WWF and other sources. In most of the tropical countries, farming is cited as the primary cause for forest loss [28]. According to the FAO, 90% of deforestation is directly attributed to unsustainble agriculture.
All of this Soybean cultivation is not for making Tofu; it's for making cattle feed. Do a quick Google Scholar search for "Soybean Cultivation" and "Cattle Production" and you'll find out soon enough. The top 5 or so are even specific to Brazil.The FAO, then they released that information, was including currect Cattle Production under the term "unsustainable agriculture." The Beef Industry, directly or indirectly. causes the vast majority of Amazonian Deforestation. Get you facts straight, people. Don't try to write anything which you don't understand. Canaen 04:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
No where in the article is Soy Bean Cultivation promoted. I see no reason for a criticism of Soy Bean Cultivation anywhere in this article. Canaen 09:47, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Revisiting the section, the entire Environmental criticism is flawed. Someone please prove the rest of it, or else it will stay down.
Feed for animals in an agrarian economy is seldom cultivated for purposes of animal feed and is often the by-product of crops primarily grown for human consumption, thus creating a meat output from hay and other plant produce. Thus, factory farming is often limited only to poultry in many parts of Africa, Asia and South America. In these regions animals are often seen as a sustainable way of life providing much needed protein and milk. The recent outbreaks of avian flu, which spreads rapidly through close-packed poultry-pens, has caused some concern over the safety of current factory-farming practices.
The first line isn't an environmental criticism, though it is valid. If someone wants to make a new section for information like that, go ahead. But it doesn't bleong here, and the rest of that bit is just incoherent blather. Canaen 04:28, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Idleguy, and anyone else, stop adding these back in, until you explain yourself. At the very least, they need to be re-written. Canaen 07:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Veganism, so-called, is primarily prevalent in Industrialized nations. To get my point acrossm let's look at this example:
Johnny is a Vegan. He lives in the U.S.A., and subscribes to PETA.
Patricia (I have a poor knowledge of names for Jains) is a Jain. She practices Ahimsa, and does simple work all day.
They have the same beliefs regarding the prevention of suffering, but the "Veganism" movement is certainly only prevalent in the first person; the second simply considers herself a Jain, not a Vegan. She probably has never even heard the term "Vegan.
I suggest, in the interest of Countering systemic bias, we either use "Similar diets and lifestyles" or create another section to include information that may be good, but irrelevant to Veganism so-called. I'm not saying this as well as I should be - hopefully I'll be able to on the morrow. Basically, I want to make sure that this article is not completely Western-centric, however I do not at all support the idea of muddling information relevant to Westerners with other information completely irrelevant. This article has had a tendency to do just that, I have noticed, giving a feeling of invalidity to many reasons that Vegans claim to be Vegans for. Canaen 05:04, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I think my patience has run out on these editors: anon with ip address: 64.105.20.237 and more recently User:Canaen who is abusive by calling me as "ignorant" in his edit summaries and threatening me with vandalism warnings. He and his coterie have constantly sought to present a very lop sided view and rubbish anything and anyone else as vandals when the opposite is true. Anon 64.105.20.237 has been going around in these and related talk pages signing off with a username "Idleguyspal" which is very much against the spirit of Wikipedia. misleading username by anon and personal attacks by both are entirely out of spirit.
I suggest that someone stop these vandalistic editors and save me from these attacks. I'm also reporting these two for harassment or whatever is appropriate. Idleguy 08:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Idleguysucks 11:02, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
I protected this page due to this massive edit war that has developed. Please talk this out or use dispute resolution. Please. No more personal attacks. -- Woohookitty (cat scratches) 09:19, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Dr. Per-Olof Åstrand of the Swedish Karolinska Institute conducted an informal study of diet and endurance using nine highly trained athletes, changing their diet every three days. At the end of every diet change, each athlete would pedal a bicycle until exhaustion. Those with a high protein and high fat meat (carnivore) diet averaged 57 minutes. Those that consumed a mixed (omnivore) diet, lower in meat, fat and protein averaged 1 hour and 54 minutes: twice the endurance of the meat and fat eaters. The vegetarian, high carbohydrate diet athletes lasted 2 hours and 47 minutes, triple the endurance of the high-protein group. (Source: Åstrand, Per-Olof, Nutrition Today 3:no2, 9-11, 1968) [21]
I'm removing this as soon as the protection comes off. 1. The 'source' comes from www.filipinovegetarianrecipe.com, 2. The 'source' does not mention veganism.
Hi
once the protection is off, I'd like to propose the inclusion of a link to the subject page of Donald Watson (1910-2005)and photo of him.
As Donald has recent died, if a moderator seeks fit to add it during these protected periods out of respect, the image is available as vegandonald.jpg.
There is another article just on Donald Watson that ought be linked to at the same time.
Thanks
Mitsu 18:10, 5 December 2005 (GMT)
Hi
I'd just like to flag up the dishonest snitching to the admins Skinwalker is using to mess around with this article.
It funny how meateater trolls like Skinwalker and Idleguy know and use all the tricky buzzwords, like " sockpuppet, the 3RR rule that they use whilst ignoring that they are doing.
This is Skinwalker snitching to Woohookitty
How can he know all these folk are the same folk?
The biggest joke is that they are not!
1. Move "envrionmental critisism" to environmental vegetarianism.
2. Move "anorexia" to semi-vegetarian or vegetarian.
Let's Vote. Canaen 09:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose. Look, you two trolls can keep this circle jerk going between the pair of you for as long as you want but the fact it, the moment you insert anything, we are going to waste it. You cannot block every non-fixed IP, all public internet access nor the increasing number of proxies. I suppose this is only going to last until Idleguy gets a job and gets over his weird fixation with veganism.
VeganJustice 21:54, 11 December 2005 (UTC) Anonymous user.
Support Canaen 09:58, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
Support Nidara 11:04, 8 December 2005 (UTC) a.k.a 64.105.20.237 or I.G.P.
Support Joehaer 00:45, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Oppose on "1." Moving the entire "environmental criticism" from here is not OK. It would be best to ensure continuity by having a small lead up paragraph of the said criticism here and move the rest to the environmental vegetarianism. On the same note, it must be balanced by having just one or two paragraphs in the article about "Environmental considerations" instead of having such a huge section. The choice is clear: Either both stay, or both get pruned to provide a balanced view. Idleguy 04:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Support on "2." Idleguy 04:25, 9 December 2005 (UTC)
Oppose on "1." I don't have a problem with moving most of the material to Environmental Vegetarianism, but the Veganism article makes questionable claims about the environmental motivation of vegan diets. These claims may be true in the context of western factory farming, but they clearly do not apply to developing nations, and we need to represent a worldwide view. As a compromise, I would like to implement FrancisTyers' suggestion that we keep two sentences, one supporting, one opposed. I suspect the proposal for "1." is somewhat disingenuous, since there is a minor war going on there about whether to keep this info in THAT article.
Compromise on "2." I propose a similar solution to that in "1.": move the information to Vegetarianism, but keep two sentences here, one supporting, one opposed. I will admit that there is a lack of vegan-only research on eating disorders. And, to be perfectly clear, I must state as I have before that a vegan diet does not cause eating disorders, and that a properly balanced vegan diet does not cause malnutrition. However, veganism is a subset of vegetarianism. In fact, vegans restrict themselves to fewer dietary options than vegetarians. Does anyone have a problem with these two statements? There is conclusive research showing that anorexia is correlated with a vegetarian diet, especially in college-age women living in developed nations. College nutritionists are trained to recognize a self-reported vegetarian diet as a risk factor for an eating disorder. Indeed, half of diagnosed anorectics are vegetarian. I don't think it is unfair or illogical to extrapolate these results from a poorly-balanced vegetarian diet to a poorly-balanced vegan diet. We need to stress nutritional adequacy as a counter to these arguments and dangers.
Therefore, I propose we move the paragraph on eating disorders to Vegetarianism, but insert the following sentences in the health criticism section in Veganism:
Finally, I would like to thank Canaen et al for toning down the rhetoric and offering positive suggestions for breaking the deadlock on the article. If we can continue assuming good faith, and making rational arguments, and not impugning each other's motives, I think we can make this article much better. I will continue to assume good faith unless personal attacks, vandalism, and/or sockpuppetry resumes. Please make honest arguments, and be willing to listen and compromise. Cheers, Skinwalker 17:33, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Support per Skinwalker and Idleguy. Suggest rephrasing as follows:
I don't think the the last sentence needs to be included, it sounds preachy and that isn't what wikipedia is about. Could someone make a subsection to this talk page outlining the current proposals and run another vote? Just to be crystal clear? - FrancisTyers 17:54, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
What exactly are we voting on? The environmental reasons for going vegan, or the anti-vegan propaganda that tries to counter that? Michael Bluejay 17:15, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Idleguys Environmental criticism have no place in either the vegan or vegetarian topics because they relate to the meat industry and omnivores. He still reuses to address this matter. If it is included just becuase some veggies do it, then why not included enviroment criticism of vegan flying, vegan automobile driving, vegan house painting and everything else that any vegan or vegetarian does that might be in any way environmentally damaging. If it is about anorexia then move it to anorexia. 217.147.85.6
It seems so blatantly irrelevant to both--I suppose there is perhaps a bit closer, though—
Joehaer 22:39, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Only if two sentences remain: one for, one against, as I discussed above. Skinwalker 03:35, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
This is a joke, right? Anorexia is an eating disorder. It is not "semi-vegetarianism". --Woohookitty(cat scratches) 14:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
What is involved with the Environmental section in your view, regarding the vote below. Please specify:
Just to be clear before I vote. I'm for either no's. 1, 2 or 4. - FrancisTyers 12:01, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Someone, or a group of someones, went through all the trouble of creating a factsheet out of John Robbins' "Diet for a New America" : http://www.vegsource.com/how_to_win.htm
I think it's worthy of being added to the links section, but I remember some hissy-fitting over an over-extensive links section. Would someone mind either explaining, or telling me under which archive said discrepency might be found? Canaen 10:57, 8 December 2005 (UTC)
"...it is one of the only online resources consolidating data extrapolated from the U.S.D.A by John Robbins, M.D., Pulitzer prize winning author for this material."
Suggestion to include idea that human intelligence is linked to the acquisition of meat.[ http://www.pupress.princeton.edu/chapters/s6549.html The Hunting Apes: Meat Eating and the Origins of Human Behavior Craig B. Stanford
This is kind of on the same level as the one Caenan posted. -
FrancisTyers 21:39, 10 December 2005 (UTC)
Percentage of U.S. antibiotics fed to livestock: 55 Percentage of staphylococci infections resistant to penicillin in 1960: 13 Percentage resistant in 1988: 91 Response of European Economic Community to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: ban Response of U.S. meat and pharmaceutical industries to routine feeding of antibiotics to livestock: full and complete support
If this is an "argument", it seems to be quite shallow.
This "argument" presumes that I live in the US and eat meat that has been fed antibiotics, then goes on to argue that the only solution is to stop eating meat. This is a false dichotomy, there are many more solutions besides just "becoming vegetarian". I think you get the idea, but if you like I'll take apart all the arguments in succession. I'd prefer not to do it here because it would just clutter up the Talk page. Its quite interesting, because most of these "arguments" support my case as much as they do yours. I might even consider using them with some of my friends who still eat death camp meat. - FrancisTyers 12:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
Let's Make This Final. Please sign for both 1. and 2. in order to prevent confusion. Also, please do not discuss or comment in this section of the Talk Page. It will be moved to the discussion section. See above. Note: this vote refers to Proposition 4.
I've organized the Archives in accordance with Wikipedia Policy. It's also just plain cleaner, and avoids others having to go through and do this to many more Veganism archives in the future. I think that as soon as this vote is over, and the page is restored, I'm going to archive the talk page again. If anyone opposes, please explain. Canaen 06:47, 11 December 2005 (UTC)
I believe that with a vote of 4:0:0 for 1., and 5:0:0 for 2., we can safely assume that the vote is affirmative. It's been a full two days. Does anyone dispute? If not, I will go on to finding an admin to unblock the page. Canaen 03:26, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Since Skinwalker has decided to threaten me, I will not edit the Request again. However, I strongly suggest that:
Thank you. Canaen 08:10, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out Skinwalker's dishonesty and favorite trick of spreading FUD through hysterical accusations of vandalism.
Above Skinwalker accuses me of " vandalising " his discussion page. I enclose a copy of what exactly I said for you to decide whether, a) it was vandalism and b) just how Skinwalker's integrity stands as he continues to use the same trick on others. You write anything, Skinwalker squeals it is vandalism in an FUD effort to frighten you off contributing any more. This may be useful as it is where this recent WikiWar started.
And I have to say that despite his paranoia / psychic powers of IP address deduction, I am not connected with any Livejournal, any other contributor or any of the numerous identities Skinwalker tries to claim are one person in his paranoid and aggressive attacks! Personally, I find it fascinating to see how obsessed Skinwalker, Idleguy and Viriditas at trying to denigrate vegan or vegetarianism topics with false POVs. I am starting to wonder, given Skinwalker confession of professional and scientific interest in animal husbandry what his interests are and would like him to clarify this.
Both Idleguy and Skinwalker have gone too far to try and force their dishonest edits and campaign and have been uncovered for what they are. Viriditas seems also to enjoy playing the game of Wiki legalese and accuse vegans of being a " Meatpuppet campaign " when we happen to agree. Notice how clever he is to even include livejournal URLs and such inflammatory and unsustainable slanders in his edit summaries on the RFC page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Society_and_law
http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Society_and_law&action=history\\
As a Requests for comment Skinwalker wrote ;
Now what they are trying to do here is whip up support, probably from more anti-veggie trolls, to support and defend their POVs. They go to accuse Canaen of organising a campaign - which I donot believe for one second - but are, of course, organising their own campaign. The typical move of an accuser accusing someone innocent of what they themselves are doing first, getting the slander in first so that they cannot be accuse of it.
Below is where the problems started after a good effort to a reasonable tidy up of the topic, my post to Skinwalker discussion page ~ and his threatening response.
Is this vandalism? It brings into question Skinwalker's credibility if it is not.
195.82.106.62 12:54, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Interesting, Viriditas - who defends the trolls - is continues his erroneous personal attack against Canaen accusing his of using " Meatpuppets". Oh so funny irony considering we are talking about a vegan article and the trolls are pushing meat industry propaganda. Same admin Woohookitty is called upon to do the dishonest deed.
For the record, I have no connection with Canaen nor susbcribe to any Livejournal. I just know this subject recognising dishonesty and hypocrisy when I see it.
Try engaging Viriditas in discussion on this topic, he just ignores you. How can there be any progress in such a situation? 195.82.106.62 19:14, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
See quote below ;
Based on the LiveJournal campaign that you've initiated, I'm going to respectfully ask that you review the Meatpuppet section on WP:SOCK. --Viriditas 07:19, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
[edit]
Interesting two pronged attack by the usual suspects Viriditas and Skinwalker who threaten to aggressively attack Canaen by filing a " user conduct RfC ". Note this quote from admin's Woohookitty discussing page.
User Skinwalker cant get it into his heads that vegans think and act by themselves - but just happen to agree on number of subjects. They are accusing us all of being organised in a campaign by Canaen now !!! And Canaen is suffering by being banned.
Funnily enough, this is just the same tactic as they use to destroy our environmental and animal rights campaigns. Tellng the same lies until some of it sticks in the general publis's mind, singling out individuals and giving them undue punishment as an example to others - and like Viriditas especially, never actually engaging in direct conversation or democractic votes where it is obvious their arguments will fail.
I note Skinwalker withdrew his vote from the poll. 195.82.106.62 19:38, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
User Skinwalker reported for persistent violations. See ; [35]
I haven't been able to read back through everything yet, but I'm already seeing a couple of interesting things:
This article could be incredible if both sides pulled back from the fringe a little and gave the article a less emotional tone. .:. Jareth.:. babelfish 22:06, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Came here via RfC. If someone has solid info about rates of eating disorders, why would that not be included? The same goes for "destructive agriculture of vegetables."
I am impressed with the article! Once this conflict is cleared, I would nominate if for featured article.
Sethie 16:12, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Re: RfC, if there are verifiable sources to affirm the claim that some anorexics claim veganism as a cover then by all means address that with citations. Durova 00:11, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
I have posted this here in an attempt to grab everyone's attention. While its place here may be disputed, I ask that it remain, for the purpose of getting read by everyone who needs or likes to.
To whom it may concern: I am Canaen. This is the only username I have ever edited Wikipedia under. A long time ago, before this account was created, I edited as my IP for a few edits, that were entirely grammatical. A bunch of users have come into this article without making accounts, simply using their IPs. I wish to proclaim, to everyone, in all sincerity, that I am in no way connected to any of them.
As for any alleged "Meatpuppet Campaign," yes, I made posts on LiveJournal asking for people to come over and review the article. I invite everyone to review the posts. Skinwalker has conveniently gone through the trouble of tracking them down, and they are available in the RfC he's preparing agaisnt me. Several LJ Users voiced distress, and I offered advice. This happens all the time in Wikipedia's IRC channel. This is far from an organized campaign, and I dispute the claim firmly.
I'm do not know where all of these IP users came from. In the event that they did come from LiveJournal, I have edited the LJ posts I made, asking any users who came to Wikipedia to read through an introduction to Wikipedia, and to create an account. I also put emphasis against Personal attacks. I can't do anything more about it. If you feel this is untrue, then please, please, bring it up to me, before your decide to take up other peoples' time with the issue. I know I make mistakes, and I try to fix them when I can. I like people to tell me when they think I make them, as obviously, I don't realize all of them.
Personal Attacks: I called Idleguy "ignorant." In the atmosphere I've developed in, that's not anything close to an attack. I do apologize if anyone took offense to it, as they seem to have. I came out of the exchange feeling attacked as well. We seem to have had a cultural misunderstanding. I'll refrain from the practice of using that word as such in this environment (on Wikipedia). This is the only personal attack I remember anyone bringing to me. If you have others, please tell me. Otherwise, please stop saying that I am attacking anyone. It was an isolated incident, and we both seem to have gotten over it. Why can't you? Stop bringing it up.
During the time I was gone, a bunch of anonymous users seem to have popped up here. However, none popped up at any of the other articles I am concerned with (Scottish Clans; view my contributions if you're interested). I refute any claims that are made to connect me with these users.
I in no way endorse the attacks that were made upon anyone in my absence, or any attacks for that matter. I want to make that clear, and final. If you have something against me, then be honest. Please. It's all I can ask of you. I want to work things out. I suggest everyone who wishes to contribute to the process of creating an encyclopedic article out of Veganism read through Intercultural communication principles. Canaen 09:02, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Hi
This is a response to Skinwalker's RFC on Canaen.
Rather than straight talking language, some folk prefer to use clever legalistic attacks on individuals such as the way that Skinwalker is using on Canaen.
In the context of the Wiki, this is an ad hominem where his intellectual powers failed to persuade the consensus on the discussion page.
Skinwalker failed to get his way with regard to muddying of the waters with anorexia just as Idleguy had done previously with the met industry's pollution. So what happened her is they conspired to attack Canaen with the use of a meatpuppet called Viriditas employing all the trick they can like making false allegation, lying, official complaints and so on.
I would like to point out that in British English the word nark is non-pejorative and I understand that it has an objective meaning something akin to a " snitch " in American. That is, meaning someone that makes, often erroneous, allegations to authorities in order to personally benefit themselves in some way. It is certianly a lot less intentionally insulting than to be continuously called a meatpuppet or, I am sure, for user Canaen to be accused of having some connection with me when he has none.
The funniest thing for me is that Skinwalker is busy digging a hole in his own canoe because his allegations are outright lies of which he can in no way substantiate.
This conflict started because Skinwalker insisted on posting data refering to anorexics on the Vegan topic which had no relationship to veganism whatsoever.
Skinwalker is entirely wrong. I know this because I know who I am and I know with whom I have and have had connections and I take a very minor little offence at being accused by the likes of you of being something I am not. I state " very minor little offence " because you and your views genuinely are so unimportant.
Skinwalker is an individual of very little decency and integrity. I do not state this as an insult but as an objective statement. Skinwalker has been told on many occasions that I have no connection with this or the other individuals and yet he not only continue to go on making such allegations but Skinwalker even uses them as the ground to make an attack on another individual. 195.82.106.78 22:16, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
Please be advised that I have filed a user conduct RFC on you. It can be found here. Cheers, Skinwalker 19:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
195.82.106.78 22:17, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
While it seems there is no link demonstrated by scientific study between veganism and anorexia, it appears that some pro-ana internet communities do support it as a method of "hiding" anorexia. Note: I still don't care if anorexia is mentioned or not in the article as my previous vote suggests. Just thought the information should be there... - FrancisTyers 00:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)
195.82.106.14 00:32, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Personal attack by 195.82.106.78 removed.
This paragraph is marked for removal to vegetarian or semi-vegetarian. Nidara 07:06, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Criticisms have also focused on the prevalence of eating disorders within the vegan and vegetarian communities. However, though there appears to be correlation, there does not appear to be causation; eating disorders often predate the adoption of a vegan/vegetarian diet (O'Connor et al., Medical Journal of Australia, 1987;147(11-12):540-2). Anorexics, for example, often find the excuse of "veganism" an attractive cover for their pre-existing eating disorder. Studies of college women show that a significantly higher proportion of women who do not consume animal protein than those who do are likely to display distorted eating attitudes and beliefs [38]. Also, self-reported teenage vegans and vegetarians are more likely to be dissatisfied with their bodies and to be involved in both healthy and unhealthy weight control practices [39].
These are vegan-specific references that belong on this page. In light of RFC responders suggesting that it's OK if it has references, I'm adding it back in. I'll post a draft later today that we can talk about. Cheers, Skinwalker 14:56, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Since there has been no objection to my most recent draft of the anorexia section, I am putting it in. Comments? We need to talk more about which sources are allowed for this article. I won't insert any source in the future that does not refer specifically to vegans, but we should come to a consensus on what we consider a "good source". There aren't a lot of good guidelines for what Wikipedia considers a proper citation, especially in cases where scientific sources are used. Here are some questions we should consider:
Cheers, Skinwalker 21:29, 17 December 2005 (UTC)
I removed this until citations are found or it even has any relevance. To have any relevance it should be proved here that vegan diets cause more death than non-vegan diets. Nidara 07:30, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
Here is the paragraph removed:
Some critics argue that many animals are also killed in the production of vegan foods. For example, enormous numbers of insects, rodents, and snakes are killed in the production of grain. Many vegans counter that a truly harmless lifestyle is impossible in their situation, and note that raising livestock requires more field animals to die than plant-based subsistence.
For a change, I thought I'd like to examine a non-contentious part of the topic, the cuisine section. I have proposed an alternative edit that put veganism at the heart of it reather than meatism.
The bit I am not sure about is " ... most vegans prefer to cook without reference to meat ... ".
This is not something that exactly warrants scientific references but from over 20 years personal experience I would say it is almost universally true.
Comments? 195.82.106.14 00:08, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Hey, heres an an ironical way of making my point (or maybe its off topic and colouring my brandy soaked 'NPOV' judgement???) - my 20 year old life-long vegan daughter has just this minute come back from her work Xmas meal for which she paid £45. Despite weeks ago requesting 'nut roast' which was supposedly on the menu (but would still have been a rip-off if you ask me...) she had to make do with a 'vegetable platter' of brussel sprouts, cabbage, boiled carrots, etc. Complaining about discrimination in the morning?? You bet we will be... Then theres all that shit in the article in the 'critisisms' section about how some non-vegans may resent the extra effort of accommodating the vegan diet. Maybe they shouldn't be in the fucking catering trade if they can't fucking 'cater' then????? quercus robur 01:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a question about American punctuation as I realise that the majority of contributors to the Wiki appear to come from North America and many are college age.
Now, I can cope with a 'z' instead of a 's' here and there and so on [ and I am grateful for my own typos being picked up ] but in British English - and let's face it, we invented it - we have a rule against placing a 'comma' before an 'and' in general use.
I went through this article to remove these once before but notice them creeping back in. Special purposes, yes. Generally, no.
Do you guys allow this or is it just as bad punctuation as it looks to us? Thanks. 195.82.106.14 01:03, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Vegans reject dairy and meat, though vegetarians consume all but meat. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.32.30.130 ( talk • contribs) 17:44, 18 December 2005.
I agree that there should be some mention older terminology
-- Salix alba ( talk) 10:36, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
I read this article through, and apart from odd parts where syntax and spelling might need looked at, it looks ok to me. I made some corrections.
Could somebody please say why it has a clean up tag? It looks balanced, with various points of view expressed in a considered way, so some of the intensive editing has been worthwhile I think, allowing the recording of what can be very opposing points of view. Veganism is a fairly revolutionary idea, in the context of established eating and social habits and ideologies, so it is going to get a lot of edits.
It's great that we haven't really failed completely to express and consider all of the relevant points of view.
TonyClarke 19:35, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Should we not move more of the Vegan nutrition section off to the Vegan nutrition topic and replace it with an introductory paragraph?
At present the so called main article is a lot smaller than the section in the Vegan topic. 195.82.106.14 02:55, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't particularly care one way or the other where the nutrition info goes... sticking it in its own article could improve the page. However, I'm not sure about this "complete protein myth" stuff. I didn't like the PDCAAS discussion before (too technical, and technically unsound at that), and I'm not convinced either for or against the complete protein "myth". Both sides seem to come from fairly pseudoscientific sources. I suppose a "complete protein" would be one that provides all essential amino acids in adequate amounts? I don't see why one single vegetable ingredient (like beans, for example) couldn't meet that standard if its amino acid content is known. On the other hand, if one ingredient doesn't provide enough of or all of the essential AAs, you have to supplement it with one other ingredient to get full nutrition. I'd like to see some verification of this, preferably from a nutrition journal, and not from "scientists" who make a living selling diet books. Cheers, Skinwalker 20:45, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I'm glad to see anorexia addressed in the article. You seem like an excellent group of editors. Regarding definitions of vegetarianism, what I see discussed here on talk I'm not sure I'd agree with. Vegetarianism has many different definitions. The situation is somewhat analogous to kosher diets: there's a spectrum of practice. Those on the stricter side often regard more lenient practices as less than genuine. Some self-defined vegetarians eat dairy, egg, fish, and poultry. Some self-defined vegans who otherwise avoid animal products make an exception for the milk and egg ingredients in bread. Best wishes. Durova 04:08, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
I think that if a contentious contributor Skinwalker is maing statements such as calling vegans " veggie-brandishing hordes " on another user finally comes out on Member user page calling's page.
This is an issue to be discussed as it clearly sets out a bias especially if that other member has attacked without consultation, see ;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Member#NPOV_on_Veganism Member is the contributor that came along and slapped a " {{totallydisputed}} " on the topic without so much as engaging consensus claiming that " The neutrality and factual accuracy of this article are disputed ". When Skinwalker went to try and find an ally on his discussion page and warn him , we are " really nasty ", the only reason for slapping a " totallydisputed " tag on us Member could state was; " I can't name any specifics other than the "pigs in crates" picture. Overall the artcle seems to exhibit a form of pro-vegan bias. I'll look at it more ". Member had not even read the topic! Skinwalker did not like the photo either. Perhaps too close to the truth?
The "pigs in crates" picture is seems fair enough to illustrate the argument between the so-called " animal welfare " of the meat industry against the argument of extending " rights " to animals and humane lifestyles.
What is the consensus on this? I have moved the imaged next to the ethics paragraph where it seems ot relate better.
The " totallydisputed " tag said " Please see the relevant discussion on the talk page. " But I cant see any comment from Member. 195.82.106.127 05:46, 22 December 2005 (UTC)
I have a problem with Viriditas consistently editing off my comments from the discussion page and understand this is against etiquette.
It would not seem to be democratic to me and a challenge to freedom of speach.
Since there appears to be some confusion about how talk pages are used, I'm going to post the following links for those who are interested in reading further:
WP:TP: Talk pages are used to discuss how to improve the article. Talk pages are not a forum to argue different points of view about controversial issues. They are a forum to discuss how different points of view should be included in the article so that the end result is neutral. Partisan debates do not align with the mission of Wikipedia, and get in the way of the job of writing an encyclopedia. Arguing as a means of improving an article is considerably less effective than an equal amount of time engaged in research.
-- Viriditas 00:56, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
"Vegetarianism" in this context, refers to veganism, which is often described as "strict vegetarianism" (see Mosby p.1797) or in the case of the ADA, as a "total vegetarian". [69] -- Viriditas 01:31, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
Due to six reverts by an anonymous editor who engages in nothing but personal attacks, vandalism, and edit warring, I've added the totally disputed tag as a result of the removal of sourced criticism from this article. The anonymous vandal claimed that the content has nothing to do with veganism, but that is false. Brenda Davis is a vegan dietitian, and her book that is quoted concerns vegan diets. The content about vegetarian female atheletes refers to ADA's use of the term which includes veganism, as does the ADA's warning about adolescents with eating disorders, specifically their opinion that "vegetarian diets may be selected to camouflage an existing eating disorder". This refers to veganism. -- Viriditas 03:00, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I was wondering if we could add a blurb under the second-to-last paragraph in the ethical criticisms section about how, because vegans typically eat on a lower trophic level than non-vegans, less crop land would need to be cultivated if everyone were vegan. (of course this completely ignores problems with crop subsidies. Also, about the 1.8 billion animals figure, more than ten billion animals are killed for food in the US. I think putting these counterpoints are important because they are required to give depth to the issue and give some way for readers to see how good his arguments really are (especially since, if it is true how he states it, it undermines the reason most people are vegan). ( RedBLACKandBURN 01:39, 26 December 2005 (UTC))
People also choose veganism to minimize their impact on the earth. Several friends of mine use this ecological footprint argument. Could that be included under the ethics section?
I just read in the news that a deficiency of Vitamin D (which comes mainly from animal sources, except for UV sun exposure) could produce similar symptoms as B-12 deficiency. Could someone add this to the article? It's worth looking into. Badagnani 06:49, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Other websites mention several other risks of Vitamin D deficiency besides cancer, including high blood pressure, depression, immune system conditions, osteoporosis, etc. Had no idea that fortified non-dairy beverages could have Vitamin D of animal origin. Scary. Badagnani 09:06, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
How stringent are most vegans? I mean, do they use plastic products, even though plastic is made from petroleum, and petroleum is an animal product? User:Zoe| (talk) 00:55, 31 December 2005 (UTC)
While my personal opinion is that the current wording of the article makes the Criticism sections superfluous (if not just short of invective), I have a specific concern regarding the paragraph about Prof. Allen's study.
1) There is no reliable reference to the study. A great many internet sources claim the study was essentially bogus, and there was wording to this effect in the article sometime in the past.
2) If the study is bogus, what in the world is it doing in the article, much less in its current, unqualified form?
3) I suggest we remove the paragraph until we can ideally read the study ourselves. It seems to be too controversial a study at the moment to be included, unqualified, in the article.
In general most of the Criticism section just makes for a really bad encyclopedia article. Most of the paragraphs are highly duplicitous (the Allen example above), inflammatory, or irrelevant.
I urge all involved in this article to cool their passions and abide by logic and aesthetic tastefulness. This is not Usenet. We are not trying to convince anyone to become vegan, nor are we trying to prove its depravity. We merely are trying to inform people about what constitutes the vegan philosophy and lifestyle. The current article smacks of controversy a bit too much to do this.
The stretching that goes on in this article belies mal-intent. I close with an example. Operating under the assumption we are merely trying to inform, rather than discuss and debate, there is no reason that the article happens to mention a theological argument that animals feel no pain just because earlier the article mentions vegans are motivated by reducing what they see as animal suffering. A scientific argument might, just barely, be relevant, but a theological one?
Remember, we don't need to add paragraphs about the philosophical and scientific errancy of sexism and racism in every article about a sexists or racist person. Cheers to all. Shawn M. O'Hare 18:05, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
The Allen study is not a valid study of veganism. The BBC article itself explains that the experiment consisted of giving malnourished children either 2oz of meat, 1 cup of milk, or an equivalent amount of OIL. Because children did best on the meat as compared to drinking pure fat, she concludes veganism is unhealthy. Who can possibly think this has any scientific value? It should be pulled or a comment added about its flawed comparison. AstroVegan 18:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
It seems very much to me that the following would be much better fitted in a criticism of Intensive farming:
As I believe I've mentioned to several current editors, Vegans don't neccessarily utilize Intensive farming, and are usually more inclined toward small-scale, organic farming methods, for many reasons. These include the unneccessary death of insects due to pesticides used in intensive farming, the small animals killed in production mentioned above, along with many other reasons specific to individuals.
So... why is this bit here? Canaen 02:26, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Jerrymander, I'm sorry to revert your edits, but the language wasn't consistent with our editing policies, which say we have to write from a neutral point of view (NPOV), and not state point of view (POV) as fact. It might help if you were to review some of our policies, particularly WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, and WP:V. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 09:05, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that the health section of the article says,"Vegetarians have been anecdotally reported to have favorably lower body mass indexes than people who eat flesh, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease. However, no cause and effect relationship between vegetarian diets and these health benefits has been scientifically established."
I'm not sure that the facts are anecdotal in nature. For instance, in the book The China Study, after rather convincingly linking the consumption of animal protein to the growth of cancer, an increase in the risk of heart disease, and other western diseases such as diabetes, Collin Campbell goes on to say, on page 242, "The findings of the China Study indicate that the lower the percentage of animal-based foods that are consumed, the greater the health benefits-even when the percentage declines from 10% to 0% of calories. So it's not unreasonable to assume that the optimum percentage of animal-based products in zero..."
This is hardly random spouting, but rather information backed by a decades long study of the relation between diet and disease.
The article could probably afford to be slightly less conservative given the weight of the evidence. Plenty of published medical doctors such as Dr. John McDougall and Dr. Joel Fuhrman say the same thing.
What do you think?-- Rustic Bohemian 01:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
Ah...So no opinion? I guess I can go and make the change then? -- 64.72.76.6 23:17, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
The quantity is also important: Eating meat in huge quantities is unhealthy as is eating bread, however many would rather eat two-three greasy meat pizzas or hamburgers than a kilogram of bread & legumes - Eating meat doesn't make anyone automatically fat or unhealthy, nor does eating vegetables make anyone slim and healthy. Overall, if nutritional additives are indeed required then I'd have to say strictly natural vegan diet is less healthy. - G3, 15:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
My question is, avoid insects. Are Vegans allowed to eat insects, because in reality, its impossible to avoid consuming all living things. A lot of insect material gets into vegan foods, and the government has controls for how much is allowed in, but none the less, it gets in. How does this play a part in vegan culture? P.S. I am not vegan, or vegi, nor am I downing the culture, just honestly curious as to this question.
Insects can't suffer - Some don't even have any memory, infact most have probably seen insect repeatedly burn itself to a normal lamp. Saying an insect suffers ie. acknowledges & recognizes pain is pure anthropomorphism (as some would argue is animal suffering and veganism in general). - G3, 15:39, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I see no mention of the eating disorder (also known as "righteous eating"). GreatGatsby 22:08, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
Someone, since the last time I bothered to read much of this article has changed the intro, and the definition section, so that the article gives the impression that Veganism is nothing more than a diet. The full quote from the Vegan Society's Articles of Association describing the definition is as follows:
It seems very much to me that The former, rather than the latter should be used as the main defenition in the article, with mention that some self-described Vegans are only so in the Dietary aspect.
In addition, the American Vegan Society's full defenition is as follows:
The current text of our article calls this defenition similar to the British Vegan Society's defenition. To me, at least, this seems much more similar to the full defenition than simply the dietary one.
If whoever removed the full defenition from the article has good reason, I'd like to hear it; otherwise I plan to bring it back. Canaen 02:45, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
This picture promotes an emotional response. It implies that the ethics of veganism are correct. It makes the article biased without adding any useful information about veganism. It should be deleted. -- Jeblis 19:45, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
The picture should stay. Factory farms suck and they are the reason many people adopt veganism. - FrancisTyers 00:11, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
The photo should be deleted, it DOES promote an emotional response, you have to remain neutral here, you're taking activism into the article and that should not be allowed. --The Beorn
vote to retain picture - it's relevant to the article quercus robur 11:02, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The picture is IMO completely irrelevant to veganism and misleading - The only case it makes is one for more humane treatment of animals. This aspect should be mentioned in the caption too. For that matter, if human treatment of animals is primary concern for vegans, then would they eat meat of naturally died animals like for an example an antelope killed by a lion and left half uneaten? - G3, 15:47, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Well, having read the arguments for keeping the photo, and those against keeping it, I have to say the "keep" contingent is unconvincing. The photo is clearly intended to provoke an emotional response, while at the same time failing to provide insight into the subject. More importantly, the photo does not in any way depict suffering animals. Please save your rhetoric, there is nothing in the photos suggesting that the animals pictured are suffering. They are simply pigs in a small cage. No argument can be made that the photo definitively depicts ANYTHING other than pigs in a small cage, and one can assume said pigs are unhappy, but absent psychic powers, it is only an assumption. More importantly, please stop being disingenuous. It is frustrating when a group uses contrived arguments in obvious attempts to push their POV. We all know what the intent of including the photo is, so stop acting like we're idiots please.
Veganism featured on the front page of the UK newspaper The Independent An ethical diet: The joy of being vegan a firly interesting read. Key points
There may well be info worth includeing from the article. -- Salix alba ( talk) 12:20, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
If this is an inappropriate place for comment, if someone could move it I would appreciate it.. as a casual reader of the article, it seems that the "full British definition" is mentioned way, way too often. I think we have understood it by the first two or three times we've read it. -- Kitsune818 12:51, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Maybe it's just me, but it seems kind of strange to have vegetarian sushi as an example of vegan cooking - there's not much cooking there beyond making the rice. Maybe change the caption to vegan cuisine or get a picture of a different dish?
In any case, minor complaint. -- 220.9.84.29 12:41, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
User:CountZ put a NPOV tag on this article, saying "The "motivations" section reads like a puff piece for veganism, especially in how it extols the vegan diet. Requires rewrite for neutral point of view." However, the points made in the motivations section are countered in the criticisms section, which is nearly twice as long. I suggest removing NPOV. Kellen T 09:07, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
just in case no one has noticed. this article contain three times the same definition sentence. you really hammered it home here trueblood 19:44, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
Lest the edit warring should continue, I wonder if those who quibble over how the caption ought to be formatted might explain their reasoning here, in order that a consensus should be sought; the dueling versions, incidentally, are here. I think the shorter version to be preferable, principally for two reasons: (a) it does not draw a conclusion apropos of whether the pigs can move (even as I am confident that Canaen's version is accurate, we oughtn't to draw conclusions where such drawing is unnecessary; a reader can surely ascertain the condition of the pigs without the caption's saying it, and our saying it verges on WP:OR); and, (b) it better focuses on the subject of the article (were the topic of the article animal abuse, Canaen's version might well suffice; here, though, animal abuse is discussed only tangentially, as a reason for one's veganism--the caption, then, ought to focus on the abuse-vegan nexus, and Canaen's version omits any reference to such nexus and doesn't attempt to conflate the picture and the topic of the article). The image exists to illustrate a reason for which some people lead a vegan lifestyle, not to offer commentary as to that reason (even if the commentary is, as in this case, altogether in accord with my sentiments); whether the pigs can turn around is largely irrelevant to veganism, inasmuch as most would nevertheless oppose factory farming even were the pigs permitted to turn around, and so the detail is unnecessary and unencyclopedic, especially/at least for this article. Joe 22:54, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
How's this one from the WikiCommons. The caption is open for improvement, but this is the basic point that I would make. Femto 12:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've put up a proposed compromise caption... "Female pigs in factory farms used for breeding, confined to gestation crates. [74] Factory farming is one of the most common ethical reasons given for veganism citation needed" I'm sure someone will revert it soon enough, but I thought I'd put it up so we can try it out and get new reactions. Coelacan 02:16, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
The indenting is all screwy here, so this looks out of place:
But I'd be fine with this. Mainly I want the crates labelled, and a link to factory farming in with it. We could use an article on Gestation Crates, for that matter. Canaen 06:21, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm taking out the stuff on Sylvester Graham. My rationale: While Graham did caution against low-quality milk, "marketplace milk, much of which came from cows fed on leftover distillery mash (swill), with the anemic, liquor-inflected product made presentable by the addition of chalk, plaster of Paris, and molasses", [76] he did not advocate a vegan diet. "Butter should be used "very sparingly." Fresh milk and eggs were frowned upon but not proscribed. Cheese was permitted only if mild and unaged." [77] "Enjoy pure milk, fresh cheeses and eggs in moderation." [78] "Modern dieticians aren't as strongly opposed to meat as he was (although they'd certainly advise fish and poultry rather than red meat), and they'd go easy on the fat- and cholesterol-laden milk, cheese, and eggs he recommended." [79] Coelacan 16:53, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
just thought i point this out again, the definition comes three times in different paragraphes and it gives the impression of brainwashing. i don't wanna mess with this since there so many devoted vegans here but i think the article would benefit from deleting two. trueblood 20:33, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
The "Environmental Vegetarianism" article that is linked to in this section is well flushed-out, but the relationship to veganism is not made. I plan to re-write it to frame the linked article and tie it into veganism. I'm posting this first since this is a controversial topic and I haven't been part of the discussion up to this point. Any comments before I get underway? -- TimTL 19:20, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I changed the sub-headers under "Motivations" to all be nouns. For example, the sub-header for the last topic was "Feminist motivations" and I changed it to "Feminism", which is less redundant and conforms to the other sub-headers. -- TimTL 19:25, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
The beginning of the Criticism section was particularly disorganized with no introductory statement. It launched right into some of the hard aspects of a vegan diet without context. I added a difficulty section and organized the concerns into areas of life that are affected by the vegan diet. I did some minor amount of text editting as well; I'm happy to discuss changes : ] -- TimTL 01:01, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Looks good to me PrettyMuchBryce 23:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Why has [80] been removed as linkspam? It seems appropriate enough. If I don't see a compelling argument to the contrary then I will add it back myself. - MichaelBluejay 02:39, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
regarding legality of 100m records, see Ben Johnson -- frymaster 03:01, 17 June 2006 (UTC)
the article says: "People become vegans for a variety of reasons, including a concern for animal rights, health benefits, religious, political, ethical, environmental, and spiritual concerns.". but i cannot understand how the 'animal rights' reason to be a vegan is different from the 'ethical' reason.
maybe there's some ethical reason to be a vegan that has nothing to do with animal rights that i never heard of.
i would prefer just "ethical" (not "animal rights") were left in place if this subissue gets sorted out. lakitu 05:18, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
Let me know what you think. - Solar 10:19, 24 June 2006 (UTC)
This is hardly a standard vegan position. I suggest removing it. Kellen T 18:26, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
This whole articles is rife with citations that either 1) only claim to support standard vegetarianism or 2) claim health benefits to certain practices that vegans have but are not exclusive to veganism. For example, [82] is not an argument for veganism itself. It's an argument against drinking dairy milk. Worse still, this citation is used against an omnivorous diet, which doesn't itself contain many dairy products in most of the world or require consumption of dairy products anywhere.
This is analogous to implying that because Kosher Jews can't eat bacon, that non-Kosher Jews must eat bacon and concluding that a Kosher diet must be healthier because it lacks bacon. That's clearly flawed logic.
I'm honestly tempted to gut half the cites from this article and throw up {{fact}} templates. -- Davidstrauss 11:08, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Here are some questionable citations and claims:
bovine leukemia virus or an AIDS-like virus as well as concern for childhood diabetes."
This is just an analysis of two sections. I'll try to cover more soon. -- Davidstrauss 03:11, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
ok, many people eat exactly like a vegan but don't care at all about "philosophies", "ideologies", "spiritual enlightments", and that stuff and they usually do it for health reasons. what are those people called. "nothingarians"?, "would-be-vegans-but-we-don't-want-them-to-be-because-we-like-politics-ians"? or what -- fs 02:59, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
A bit of googling reveals that not all self-called vegans agree whether veganism excludes honey since it may be theoretically consumed without harming insects or plants or because more insects may be harmed in the production of sugar and that may even make its avoidance anti-vegan, and similar reasons. I think it deserves to be mentioned that it's not a clear area even though it's probably excluded in a "primary" definition. -- fs 03:45, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I have recently completed (or started, depending on your point of view) a major research paper regarding veganism. This talk page is constantly changing, and very long, but if anyone is looking for citations regarding virtually anything in regards to veganism, let me know. I have hundreds of primary sources sitting in a file of photocopies next to me, most of the involving nutrition, but also about issues as diverse as cancer rates, biblical passages and the societal pressures of eating meat. It has been difficult for me to tell which areas still need more citation, so if anyone is looking for a piece of academic work to support our cause, I probably have an example sitting next to me right now. Let me know. -- Sometimes 07:01, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
I would dispute the removal of the link to Movement for Compassionate Living (though am not prepared to go to war over it... :)
MCL were formed by kathleen jannaway who was secretary of the UK Vegan Society, and an important pioneer of the British vegan movement from the 40s onwards. She founded MCL as a 'breakaway' from the Vegan Society in 1984 when the VS decided to become more 'mainstream', ie, much of the money that was held by the VS with the intention of eventually creating some kind of vegan based land project got ploughed into making the Vegan magazine more glossy and 'accessable' and various other marketing projects. Jannaway felt that this was not the direction she wanted the society to move in and consequently set up MCL, which promoted the 'ecological veganism' that the 'old' vegan society held up as an ideal. The publications of the MCL such as 'Abundant Living in the Coming Age of the Tree', which argues for the phasing out of animal farming in favour of tree crops that can meet all human needs are visionary and important though currently under-recognised contributions to the wider debates around not only veganism but ecological sustainablity.
In terms of their ideas and what they add to the development of vegan thought and philosophy MCL have a long pedigree and are at least as important as some of the other oranisations linked to such as Vegan Outreach etc.
I strongly feel the link is appropriate in this article and should be re-instated, but will abide by consensus on the matter. quercus robur 22:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)