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About this addition. The ref is a primary source PMID 27001851.
We have this review PMID 27812156 citing it, which is free-access and can be used to summarize the findings (see Discussion section).
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 11:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
I have reread the previous text calmly and I realize the concern of C.J. Griffin.
There was one major problem that led to confusion, related to the order of the information, which seemed to imply that the only solution for avoiding vitamin B12 deficiency is to eat meat. That was not the intention! It would be solved by rearranging the information like this (strikethrough -> previous version, bold -> reordered version):
I also understand that what has caused "alarm" is the mention of the risk of death in the lede. There are few documented cases, but there are. I think it is a matter of sufficient importance to mention it in the lead. However, I will respect to keep it out of the lede and wait to see the opinions of other users.
But IMO the effects of vitamin B12 deficiency should be mentioned in the lede, it is not disproportionate. Increasing evidence emphasizes the importance, especially since the high content of folacin in vegetarian diets may mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency, so it may go undetected until neurological signs in the late stages are evident, which can be irreversible.
There are several possible nutritional deficiencies that can cause various health problems, but we only talk about the consequences of one of them in the lede (blood disorders and neurological damage from vitamin B12 deficiency), in the same way that there are several advantages over health and the most important ones are currently mentioned too ( "a vegan diet can reduce the risk of some types of chronic disease, including heart disease"). I think it is correct, to give neutrality and that this way we can all agree; as Alexbrn proposes, the possible side effects are mentioned in a more succinct way.
I will adjust the page a bit and wait for your opinions. (step 1)
Also, I have seen that this does not fit the source: " The German Society for Nutrition cautions against vegan diets for children, and during pregnancy and lactation." What it really says is " For pregnant women, breastfeeding, infants, children and adolescents, a vegan diet is not recommended by DGE." (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung, the German Society for Nutrition).
I will also adjust this information and move it. Its logical place is following the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. (step 2)
There is more information that does not fit the source that accompanies it, like this one: "No animal products are involved in the production of B12 supplements". What the ref really says is "Dietitians should also be able to provide suggestions for brand names of b12 supplements that are vegan", which is not the same.
This page needs more review to continue giving neutrality. For example, criticism, contradictions, recent discoveries about plant neurobiology that points to them as sentient beings, etc. are lacking. There was total silence regarding the impossibility of following a lifestyle that completely eliminates the use of animals, such as the problematic of medications suitable for vegans, etc.
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 19:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
the most important pointsand should avoid
over-specific descriptions; the essentials you have to know about the subject. You doesn't need to know how to diagnose B12 deficiency in order to write a book about veganism; anyone interested in knowing more about it can click through to the fine article. Second, it's misleading; "only food of animal origin contains sufficient amount [sic] of this vitamin for humans" is only true if "food" is understood to mean "foods not specially formulated for higher vitamin concentration". Finally, the undue attention and phrase "major concern" unnecessarily risks violating WP:NPOV or making readers think we're trying to scare them away from veganism.
most importantlypasses WP:V according to the current four citations. Three simply list it along with D, Fe, etc ( Craig ADA Guyda), and even the one which focuses on b12 specifically ( Vitale) doesn't claim it's the "most important" deficiency, only that it's "common among vegetarians".
As a result of the elimination of all animal products, vegan diets are often low in iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamins D and B12, and poorly-planned vegan diets can lead to nutritional deficiencies with serious health consequences.FourViolas ( talk) 13:30, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
— It seems bizarre to propose that this is not lede worthy. Avoiding B12-deficiency is a very central component to any information on veganism. That includes giving the reason why it is very important.
B12 is also unique in that it is not possible to consume non-fortified vegan food that contains sufficient B12. I'm not saying anything about including other minerals or vitamins, but B12 should be mentioned in full. Carl Fredrik talk 14:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
We are missing out on the most important issue: this page is about veganism, not vegetarianism. Most guides and highest-quality sources talk about vegetarianism in general [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17].
A very important problem when evaluating the evidence of these diets is the lack of unification of definitions and that a correct differentiation of strict vegetarian (vegan) diets is usually not made. And there is a fundamental characteristic that distinguishes it from other vegetarian diets: the total absence of animal foods, so vitamin B12 deficiency is a fundamental concern: Vitamin B12, also called cobalamin (Cbl), is a water-soluble vitamin found in substantial quantities only in animal foods. If the consumption of animal foods is very low or absent, its scarce presence in plant foods makes its introduction essential, either through supplements or fortified foods. This deficiency is common among vegetarians and is the result of a very low intake (14) ... Unbalanced vegetarian diets could be lacking in nutrients that are poorly represented in vegetal foodstuffs or with a low bioavailability (e.g., iron, zinc, vitamin D, ω3 polyunsaturated fatty acids) (17). However, only Cbl seems to be virtually absent in vegetables and its shortage can have serious implications. The other nutrients that may be somewhat deficient are already mentioned previously, at the beginning of the paragraph "Vegan diets tend to be.." in the current version.
This guide of 2016 Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets also discusses vegetarian diets in general but includes a phrase at the end of the abstract highlighting the need for vitamin B12 supplementation in vegan diets specifically "Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements". And in the body of the article, develops a broad section:
Extended content
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Vitamin B-12 is not a component of plant foods.7,39 Fermented foods (such as tempeh), nori, spirulina, chlorella algae, and unfortified nutritional yeast cannot be relied upon as adequate or practical sources of B-12.39,40 Vegans must regularly consume reliable sources— meaning B-12�fortified foods or B-12�containing supplements—or they could become deficient, as shown in case studies of vegan infants, children, and adults.8,39 Most vegetarians should include these reliable B-12 sources because 1 cup of milk and one egg per day only provides about two-thirds of the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA).7,39,40 Early symptoms of a severe B-12 deficiency are unusual fatigue, tingling in the fingers or toes, poor cognition, poor digestion, and failure to thrive in small children. A subclinical B-12 deficiency results in elevated homocysteine. People with little or no B-12 intake may feel healthy; however, long-term subclinical deficiency can lead to stroke, dementia, and poor bone health.7,8,41 Laboratory tests to assess vitamin B-12 status include serum methylmalonic acid, serum or plasma B-12, and serum holo-transcobalamin (Holo-TC or Holo-TCII).8,39,41 The normal mechanism for B-12 absorption is via the intrinsic factor, which becomes saturated at about half the RDA and requires 4 to 6 hours before further absorption.40 Hence, fortified foods are best eaten twice during the course of a day. A second absorption mechanism is passive diffusion at a rate of 1%, allowing lessfrequent consumption of large supplemental doses. Recommendations based on large doses have been made (eg, 500 to 1,000 mg cyanocobalamin several times per week).8,39 The four forms of B-12 are differentiated by their attached groups. Cyanocobalamin is most commonly used in fortified foods and supplements because of its stability. Methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin are forms used in the body’s enzymatic reactions; these are available in supplement forms that appear to be no more effective than cyanocobalamin and may require higher doses than the RDA. Hydroxocobalamin is the form used effectively for injections.8,42 |
I asked for more opinions because I value them and I think that among all we can reach a writing that meets the objectives of Wikipedia. I think we should judge from this perspective and while we can leave aside of the lede more detailed descriptions about vitamin B12 deficiency, IMO is important to mention this point in particular (only products of animal origin contain sufficient amount of vitamin B12 for humans). Anyway, I still think that for a lay reader, it may also be important to clarify more about what this implies, but I will accept the consensus we reach.
I think we can do a better job than what is normally found in guidelines, scientific articles, research papers, case studies... by making a correct differentiation and giving a clear and accurate information for the reader. We already go with advantage because we have separate pages: vegetarianism and veganism.
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 00:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
I think we can do a better job than what is normally found in guidelines, scientific articles, research papers, case studies—this is where we disagree, BB. My understanding of our core content policies WP:DUE and WP:OR is that this is not our job as Wikipedia editors: we are supposed to follow what reliable sources say, even if our own opinions differ.
BallenaBlanca, you recently added the following:
"Several compounds may be used for the cultivation of bacteria, such as glycine, glycerine, l-threonine, betaine, choline, or whey supplemented with yeast extract, [1] [2] [3] which may be of animal origin. [4] Another form of vitamin B12 used in food supplements is methylcobalamin, which can be produced from genetically modified micro-organisms or manufacturing semi-syntheticaly after the extraction of vitamin B12 from products of animal origin. [5]
While I appreciate your efforts, I don't think this material is appropriate here, for two policy-based reasons plus an intuitive one.
While the claim "which may be of animal origin" is pretty clearly SYNTH, the rest of the material would go well in Vitamin_B12#Fortified_foods_and_supplements. Would you be willing to move it there? FourViolas ( talk) 01:59, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Some brands of B12 supplements are vegan.<ref>Mangels</ref>? FourViolas ( talk) 00:34, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
The examples given above are not automatically weasel words.I come from a math/logic background in which "some" simply means "at least one, but not necessarily all," which seems like exactly as much information as the vague sources give us.
Anyway, is everyone else okay with "Certain brands of B12 supplements are vegan" and moving the other manufacturing information to Vitamin_B12#Synthesis_and_industrial_production? FourViolas ( talk) 17:59, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
BallenaBlanca I see what you are doing here - the argument is that even B12 from bacterial culture isn't (or might not be) vegan because the cell cultures used to grow the bacteria (might) include animal-derived ingredients. You are going to need to bring sources that actually say that about the methods actually used to produce B12 supplements. Not easy information to find. But that is what is needed. I am doing some looking but there may not be sources with level of detail. But I suggest you drop this until such a source can be provided. Otherwise this is really speculation. I agree it would be useful to get clarified, one way or the other. Jytdog ( talk) 00:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
We currently cite the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and the German Society for Nutrition. To get a broader view, I looked through the websites and published position papers of the International Confederation of Dietetic Organizations and recorded all of their officially stated positions. I propose replacing the last section of the current diet paragraph in the lede with the following:
Multiple national and international dietetic organizations have stated that a well-planned vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of life, [1] while others recommend or caution against vegan diets for infants or pregnant and lactating women. [2]
References
Any comments or objections? FourViolas ( talk) 02:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, British Dietetics Association, Dietitians of Canada, and Nordic Council of Ministers have stated that a well-planned vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of life, while the German Society for Nutrition and Danish National Health Board recommend or caution against vegan diets for infants or pregnant and lactating women? FourViolas ( talk) 00:45, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Removed from article per WP:ELNO. Little encyclopedic value. -- Zefr ( talk) 18:08, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
I restored this content [21].
Claudio Bertonatti is one of the most renowned naturalists [1] [2] in Argentina and has written dozens of papers [22]. His opinion is perfectly valid and with firm bases of knowledge, for his academic training and professional work as a conservationist of nature for more than thirty years, as well as his past as a vegetarian. He was vegetarian because of ethical motives.
His opinion is a perfect counterpoint for this section per WP:CRITICISM and WP:NPOV, with a focus on wildlife and non-exclusivly on domestic animals. Others may consider his position elementary. Well, they are respectable opinions too... Bertonatti defends the rights of animals and to avoid their "mistreatment, cruelty and agony", but criticizes that the impacts on "an enormous amount of animals from a great diversity of wild species: from invertebrates to fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals ... become 'invisible' to the distance of a large city and consequently are unemotional. And what does not excite is not evoked" and wishes that "the thousands of wild animals that die daily poisoned by the use of agrochemicals, badly injured or shot by the hunters associated with the defense of the crops or those who remain hungry and without shelter because their environment was plowed" also had the opportunity to receive the same consideration. [2]
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 18:23, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
without giving undue weight to particular viewpoints. It is thus inappropriate to select material based on what we think would be a "perfect counterpoint"; we select material based on the prominence it is given in relevant secondary literature. Bertonatti's opinions about veganism seem to have been cited exactly once, in what appears to be a Master's thesis in Sociology. For comparison, Animal Liberation has been cited over 5,000 times, according to Google Scholar.
References
Last year Claudio Bertonatti, one of the most renowned naturalists in Argentina, wrote an article that triggered an earthquake. The tsunami reached us here and is likely to extend even further. In his article, The Vegan Confusion he warns that eating vegetables doesn't prevent the death of animals.
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: External link in |quote=
(
help)
User:Harald Forkbeard about this and this and this....Please a) read and follow WP:V and WP:LEAD; b) review this page and its archives so you are aware of how heavily negotiated this article has been; and please stop adding unsourced content to the lead of this article (or any article). Thanks. Jytdog ( talk) 19:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Within the wider vegan community -- as well as among those thinkers foundational to vegan philosophy *AND* diets -- the notion that so-called "dietary veganism" qualifies as veganism represents the minorty opinion. Wiki is supposed to be neutral. This article greatly over-represents this minority opinion. The attempts to subvert the majority, popular opinion within the vegan community can be demonstrated to be economically and politically motivated in many cases. comment added by Zhachev ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources, not just those within the "vegan community". For example, a peer-reviewed paper about authenticity among vegans writes,
In this paper, I distinguish between health vegans, environmental vegans and ethical vegans. A health vegan eats a plant-based diet to lose weight or to improve physical health. However,they do not incorporate veganism into other aspects of their lives, nor are they primarily concerned with animal rights issues. An environmental vegan is concerned about the environmental impact of the meat industry. However,they may purchase leather products over polyvinyl chloride (PVC), thinking that leather is a better choice for the environment. An ethical vegan is one who adopts a vegan diet for moral, ethical and political reasons. The diet forms only part of a lifestyle that is structured around a philosophy of animal rights. [1]
Some vegans think these terms are unnecessary as they believe veganism is not a diet. These people define health vegans as "pure vegetarians" or "plant-based eaters." Nonetheless, I use the terms "health vegan" and "ethical vegan," because these are the terms my participants use.
These are not merely descriptive differences; they are value-laden within the vegan community. Some leaders in the vegan movement (citations) applaud anyone who tries to eliminate animal-based food in their diet. As the goal is to reduce animal suffering, the factors that motivate veganism are irrelevant. Other vegan leaders, such as Francione, Best and Regan, are more critical of people who simply choose an apolitical vegan diet. [...] They want to preserve veganism as an anti- establishment politic, as well as an ethic about animal liberation,
_____
References
In the "Soy" section, I see the word "mince". Does that mean ground meat? If so, maybe we should just delete it because it's immediately followed by "veggie burgers" which would be redundant. Mksword ( talk) 20:18, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
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This article might be improved by a section on the criticisms of veganism that have been made. The main one that I have seen is that it ignores the cost to animal life involved in producing the foods that vegans are willing to eat, grains, pulses, etc. For example, a farmer said "the cure for veggies is to take them ploughing", meaning that grain production involves the killing of great numbers of insects, nematodes and small mammals, such as field mice, frogs, toads, possibly birds also, etc. Hence, the argument goes, vegans are living in a self-indulgent delusion. It would be helpful if this sort of approach could be fully explored and evaluated in the article. Seadowns ( talk) 10:31, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
I've attempted to add a section and it was summarily reverted. Good luck getting a word in esgwwise against the shill army! Wolfmankurd ( talk) 01:48, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Hey Jytdog, I noticed that you effectively reverted the quotes I added in the previous edit. Although I usually would not care, since I understand that sometimes lengthy quotes can be considered superfluous, your edit summary seems to cite WP:SOAP as the rationale. This is confusing for me. Could you please explain what you mean by that?
My initial impression is that you might be suggesting that my inclusion of those quotes constituted soapboxing (
advocacy?), but I would rather you state so than assume so. If that is your rationale, however, then I am not sure how including relevant quotes from the source which substantiate the claim being cited (which is the function of the quote
parameter) qualifies as that. If my use of the quote
parameter does, then please let me know because I am unaware of any policy or guideline which defines such use as a violation of
WP:SOAP (or any other policy or guideline).
I bring this up not to quibble, but because the result of this discussion will inform my usual editing practices going forward, especially on this article. (I have recently been filling out many citations and adding quotes during the process.) I would rather not unwittingly engage in behavior that appears to violate WP:SOAP, so any explanation you or anyone else could provide for why the quotes I have added appear to violate such guidelines would help me ensure I avoid such behavior. If there is none, then is there any other reason why the quotes should be omitted? If not, then naturally I recommend reinstating them.
Thank you for your time and any input you are willing to provide on this matter. ― Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
quote
parameter unless the content is not freely accessible online,
Jytdog? If so, should I proceed to clean out the quotes I have been adding in the citations, at least where similar in form to the ones you removed from this article? Or should I leave them for now and let someone else determine which are worth omission? Lastly, is this usage guideline according to a particular Wikipedia policy or guideline I should review and remember, or is this just your personal recommendation? If the latter, then that's fine, too. I just want to know whether such behavior violates established policies or guidelines on Wikipedia, since I am not aware of that being the case.Alternatively, if there are any such articles or essays (or sections thereof) you know on when to use quotes in citations, that would also be helpful. I have seen citation quotes used inconsistently and without any clear rationale throughout Wikipedia, so I have been relying on my own interpretation of what scant usage guidelines I could find. For example, the most specific I have encountered is under
WP:HOWCITE's section entitled "
Additional annotation", but that seems capable of supporting both my inclusion of the quotes and your exclusion of them. Thanks again for whatever further input you are willing to provide. ―
Nøkkenbuer (
talk •
contribs) 03:39, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Moved to talk [23].
I trimmedcontent this content, based on opinions [24] and it has been added again [25]. For health claims we need to comply with WP:MEDRS. -- BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 10:06, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I do not understand the rationale you provided in your edit summary when you reverted my , BallenaBlanca. You stated that the two people are "unknown" and "non-notable" persons, yet I do not see why that matters. The first person, Sophia Nguyen, is simply the author of the cited source; she's about as "unknown" and "non-notable" as almost all the authors cited in the citations of this article (and basically all Wikipedia articles). I only included her name to provide attribution given that the assertion appeared to have been more of an opinion than a fact to me, and to clarify that Nina Gheihman (the second person) was not the author to anyone reading just the paragraph. As for the notability of Gheihman, this likewise seems irrelevant given that we cite rather obscure academics, authors, and journalists on Wikipedia all the time. What matters is the content and the sourcing rather than the claimant per se.
Regardless, notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article, since such guidelines only pertain to the notability of a subject in determining whether they should have their own article. Since this is about article content, what matters is whether the content is verifiable, has a neutral point of view (especially in being given due weight), and adheres to Biographies of living persons policies. I considered my edit to have satisfied all those conditions; if I did not, I frankly would not have submitted it.
With that said, what specific issue do you have with the content I added? If it's just the notability of the persons being mentioned, then I naturally suggest reinstating the content. If it's more than that, though, then perhaps I can try to address it. Thanks for your time. ― Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Zefr: Hello, I reviewed the "Veganism" article recently, and it referenced a study [citation 237 in the article]. I downloaded the study and after detailed review of the study, I had suggested the following edits to the "Health effects" section, to make the section accurately reflect what the study was stating:
1. Add the following statement (extracted from the same citation 237 in the article): "The review notes that disease incidence and mortality are two very different outcomes, with cardiovascular and cancer mortality being greatly influenced by the treatment approaches." The reason why this edit is important is because (as the citation notes) it is an important distinction - mortality is influenced by treatment regimens. As the study authors note, that largely explains the difference between lowered risk of heart disease (as the section notes) and the fact that mortality rate are unaffected.
2. In the "Health Effects" section, the last paragraph ONLY mentions the negative aspects of Veganism- namely that it can cause B12 deficiencies, etc. which is indeed noted in the references. However, Veganism does have benefits as well, as noted in the SAME citation [23]. Hence I took verbatim the following sentence, and edited the last paragraph to add it up front in the paragraph: "A vegetarian diet is associated with many health benefits because of its higher content of fiber, folic acid, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium, and many phytochemicals and a fat content that is more unsaturated."
Both the above edits were rejected and reverted. Please reconsider, as I am only trying to make the section more accurate and balanced, using the EXACT SAME references that the article currently references (citation 237 and 23).
This is my first Wikipedia edit, and I am hoping it will be a positive experience, with editors of this article being unbiased. My interest is in accuracy, and ensuring the article notes both positive and negative aspects in the "Health Effects" section, which it currently does not (ESPECIALLY THE LAST PARAGRAPH, which only notes the negative aspects).
Since I am new to Wikipedia edits, please suggest an alternative mechanism/process for editorial communications, if this Talk page is not the appropriate mechanism. (I was unable to find a user-friendly way to directly respond to the edit comments on my own Talk page).
Thanks!
I believe the article should contain an image of Donald Watson . He was the founder of the worlds first vegan society and the person who coined the term vegan. He is a significant figure in the history of the movement. A free image exists on Wikimedia of him shortly before his death in 2008 reading the historic copy of the first vegan newsletter ever published in 1944. I am including this in the section of Coining the term vegan . Lumos3 ( talk) 13:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The notion that Jainism has a history that long is suspect to most non‐Jains and should probably not be presented uncritically 72.184.20.135 ( talk) 23:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
The section headed "Pet food" says that veganism is sometimes extended to cats and dogs. I have long understood that cats cannot be vegetarian and need to have meat in their diet. Is this an inaccuracy in the article? Vorbee ( talk) 18:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
The posters on this page are pro vegan, and they will push that all veganism is good. --Mapsfly ( talk) 22:31, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The various common pronunciations of this word are an important aspect of this concept and discussions about it. There is no reason to remove well-sourced information about this, and not only because it's one of the common reasons readers look up this article. It's especially weird that someone thinks they have the right to demand a justification for including well-sourced information instead of first leaving it in and starting a discussion about it here. Spurious arguments like claiming that info in a footnote clutters the lead make such editing look even more like vandalism. -- Espoo ( talk) 16:09, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I had – and have lost – a tab open with a source that said the health effects of a vegan diet on preventing cancer require about 15 years to appear. This is (a) not surprising, given that most solid cancers grow for years before they're detected, and (b) not what the average fad dieter is hoping. (This review also found about a 20% reduction for several common cancers, but higher risks for a few other kinds of cancer.) I assume that the minimum-time-to-benefit is shorter for heart disease, but I haven't looked for any sources on that subject.
If anyone can find a source that addresses this subject, I think that it would be good to include this information. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 03:46, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I want to adding the gallery into Vegan article is like Vegetarianism , I think first to moving Vegan food or is same picture in gallery in this article , There is want to collect veganism photographs in there can collecting the picture is really important thing , If anyone can help me to removing vegan picture into gallery most ? I think it's not vandalism for this article. Geoffreyrabbit ( talk) 14:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
The dispute concerns Veganism#Gallery. One view is that we usually do not include galleries, per WP:Gallery, and the gallery does not appear needed. The other view is that a collection of veganism diet pictures in a gallery is an improvement. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 04:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Why does this article initially have letters as in-line citation reference codes (up to h) and then switch to numbers, from 28 onwards? Vorbee ( talk) 17:09, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:36, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Please mention pronunciation debate [28]. Jidanni ( talk) 10:19, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I noticed that an editor had added a 'Religion' section and referenced Genesis 1:29, but was reverted. Genesis 1:29 seems applicable to the page, and is maybe the oldest (or one of the oldest) references of a "vegan" diet (at the time 'vegan' wasn't needed because it was just 'diet'). Why the revert and not just a clean-up on the new addition? Thanks. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:33, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
"particularly in diet" virtually means only in diet, which is not accurate. I suggest "at least in diet". Any objections to "at least in diet"? Alec Gargett ( talk) 04:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
I made basic formatting improvements to the article improving readability with explanations in the edit description. Flyer22 Reborn has reverted them without explanation claiming I need to discuss on the talk page first. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Veganism&type=revision&diff=880230898&oldid=880224464) However, since I justified the edits in the edit descriptions and he did not provide any explanation for reverting, and there is no plausible explanation, this seems unreasonable. I agree with the arguments made in Wikipedia:Reverting#Explain_reverts and Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary and think Flyer22 Reborn should follow the advice in these essays, especially since this is not the first time he has done something like this. I attempted to discuss this with Flyer22 on his talk page, but he reverted my contribution to his talk page, again saying the description that I need to discuss every edit including minor edits that I make to this article on the talk page first. This would make progress on Wikipedia incredibly slow if it were followed and has no apparent benefits. He does not seem at all willing to discuss why he objects simple formatting edits or even whether he even looked at them before reverting. For an example of me trying to discuss a relatively minor edit first above. I did not get a good explanation for his opposition to my proposed change but I know from previous experience that Flyer22 would revert regardless. I could provide a very good explanation for the reverted formatting edits too, but I don't see the point of requiring me to "discuss" and get approval for every single edit in advance no matter how minor (or any of them) except to discourage me from attempting to improve the article by making it no longer worth my time. There is a lot of work to be done on this article and if I have to discuss every little thing before hand it will make the whole process much more time consuming for no apparent benefit. Alec Gargett ( talk) 05:30, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
About this addition. The ref is a primary source PMID 27001851.
We have this review PMID 27812156 citing it, which is free-access and can be used to summarize the findings (see Discussion section).
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 11:32, 18 August 2017 (UTC)
I have reread the previous text calmly and I realize the concern of C.J. Griffin.
There was one major problem that led to confusion, related to the order of the information, which seemed to imply that the only solution for avoiding vitamin B12 deficiency is to eat meat. That was not the intention! It would be solved by rearranging the information like this (strikethrough -> previous version, bold -> reordered version):
I also understand that what has caused "alarm" is the mention of the risk of death in the lede. There are few documented cases, but there are. I think it is a matter of sufficient importance to mention it in the lead. However, I will respect to keep it out of the lede and wait to see the opinions of other users.
But IMO the effects of vitamin B12 deficiency should be mentioned in the lede, it is not disproportionate. Increasing evidence emphasizes the importance, especially since the high content of folacin in vegetarian diets may mask the hematological symptoms of vitamin B12 deficiency, so it may go undetected until neurological signs in the late stages are evident, which can be irreversible.
There are several possible nutritional deficiencies that can cause various health problems, but we only talk about the consequences of one of them in the lede (blood disorders and neurological damage from vitamin B12 deficiency), in the same way that there are several advantages over health and the most important ones are currently mentioned too ( "a vegan diet can reduce the risk of some types of chronic disease, including heart disease"). I think it is correct, to give neutrality and that this way we can all agree; as Alexbrn proposes, the possible side effects are mentioned in a more succinct way.
I will adjust the page a bit and wait for your opinions. (step 1)
Also, I have seen that this does not fit the source: " The German Society for Nutrition cautions against vegan diets for children, and during pregnancy and lactation." What it really says is " For pregnant women, breastfeeding, infants, children and adolescents, a vegan diet is not recommended by DGE." (Deutsche Gesellschaft für Ernährung, the German Society for Nutrition).
I will also adjust this information and move it. Its logical place is following the position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. (step 2)
There is more information that does not fit the source that accompanies it, like this one: "No animal products are involved in the production of B12 supplements". What the ref really says is "Dietitians should also be able to provide suggestions for brand names of b12 supplements that are vegan", which is not the same.
This page needs more review to continue giving neutrality. For example, criticism, contradictions, recent discoveries about plant neurobiology that points to them as sentient beings, etc. are lacking. There was total silence regarding the impossibility of following a lifestyle that completely eliminates the use of animals, such as the problematic of medications suitable for vegans, etc.
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 19:29, 19 August 2017 (UTC)
the most important pointsand should avoid
over-specific descriptions; the essentials you have to know about the subject. You doesn't need to know how to diagnose B12 deficiency in order to write a book about veganism; anyone interested in knowing more about it can click through to the fine article. Second, it's misleading; "only food of animal origin contains sufficient amount [sic] of this vitamin for humans" is only true if "food" is understood to mean "foods not specially formulated for higher vitamin concentration". Finally, the undue attention and phrase "major concern" unnecessarily risks violating WP:NPOV or making readers think we're trying to scare them away from veganism.
most importantlypasses WP:V according to the current four citations. Three simply list it along with D, Fe, etc ( Craig ADA Guyda), and even the one which focuses on b12 specifically ( Vitale) doesn't claim it's the "most important" deficiency, only that it's "common among vegetarians".
As a result of the elimination of all animal products, vegan diets are often low in iron, zinc, calcium, and vitamins D and B12, and poorly-planned vegan diets can lead to nutritional deficiencies with serious health consequences.FourViolas ( talk) 13:30, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
— It seems bizarre to propose that this is not lede worthy. Avoiding B12-deficiency is a very central component to any information on veganism. That includes giving the reason why it is very important.
B12 is also unique in that it is not possible to consume non-fortified vegan food that contains sufficient B12. I'm not saying anything about including other minerals or vitamins, but B12 should be mentioned in full. Carl Fredrik talk 14:29, 21 August 2017 (UTC)
We are missing out on the most important issue: this page is about veganism, not vegetarianism. Most guides and highest-quality sources talk about vegetarianism in general [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17].
A very important problem when evaluating the evidence of these diets is the lack of unification of definitions and that a correct differentiation of strict vegetarian (vegan) diets is usually not made. And there is a fundamental characteristic that distinguishes it from other vegetarian diets: the total absence of animal foods, so vitamin B12 deficiency is a fundamental concern: Vitamin B12, also called cobalamin (Cbl), is a water-soluble vitamin found in substantial quantities only in animal foods. If the consumption of animal foods is very low or absent, its scarce presence in plant foods makes its introduction essential, either through supplements or fortified foods. This deficiency is common among vegetarians and is the result of a very low intake (14) ... Unbalanced vegetarian diets could be lacking in nutrients that are poorly represented in vegetal foodstuffs or with a low bioavailability (e.g., iron, zinc, vitamin D, ω3 polyunsaturated fatty acids) (17). However, only Cbl seems to be virtually absent in vegetables and its shortage can have serious implications. The other nutrients that may be somewhat deficient are already mentioned previously, at the beginning of the paragraph "Vegan diets tend to be.." in the current version.
This guide of 2016 Position of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics: Vegetarian Diets also discusses vegetarian diets in general but includes a phrase at the end of the abstract highlighting the need for vitamin B12 supplementation in vegan diets specifically "Vegans need reliable sources of vitamin B-12, such as fortified foods or supplements". And in the body of the article, develops a broad section:
Extended content
|
---|
Vitamin B-12 is not a component of plant foods.7,39 Fermented foods (such as tempeh), nori, spirulina, chlorella algae, and unfortified nutritional yeast cannot be relied upon as adequate or practical sources of B-12.39,40 Vegans must regularly consume reliable sources— meaning B-12�fortified foods or B-12�containing supplements—or they could become deficient, as shown in case studies of vegan infants, children, and adults.8,39 Most vegetarians should include these reliable B-12 sources because 1 cup of milk and one egg per day only provides about two-thirds of the Recommended Dietary Allowance (RDA).7,39,40 Early symptoms of a severe B-12 deficiency are unusual fatigue, tingling in the fingers or toes, poor cognition, poor digestion, and failure to thrive in small children. A subclinical B-12 deficiency results in elevated homocysteine. People with little or no B-12 intake may feel healthy; however, long-term subclinical deficiency can lead to stroke, dementia, and poor bone health.7,8,41 Laboratory tests to assess vitamin B-12 status include serum methylmalonic acid, serum or plasma B-12, and serum holo-transcobalamin (Holo-TC or Holo-TCII).8,39,41 The normal mechanism for B-12 absorption is via the intrinsic factor, which becomes saturated at about half the RDA and requires 4 to 6 hours before further absorption.40 Hence, fortified foods are best eaten twice during the course of a day. A second absorption mechanism is passive diffusion at a rate of 1%, allowing lessfrequent consumption of large supplemental doses. Recommendations based on large doses have been made (eg, 500 to 1,000 mg cyanocobalamin several times per week).8,39 The four forms of B-12 are differentiated by their attached groups. Cyanocobalamin is most commonly used in fortified foods and supplements because of its stability. Methylcobalamin and adenosylcobalamin are forms used in the body’s enzymatic reactions; these are available in supplement forms that appear to be no more effective than cyanocobalamin and may require higher doses than the RDA. Hydroxocobalamin is the form used effectively for injections.8,42 |
I asked for more opinions because I value them and I think that among all we can reach a writing that meets the objectives of Wikipedia. I think we should judge from this perspective and while we can leave aside of the lede more detailed descriptions about vitamin B12 deficiency, IMO is important to mention this point in particular (only products of animal origin contain sufficient amount of vitamin B12 for humans). Anyway, I still think that for a lay reader, it may also be important to clarify more about what this implies, but I will accept the consensus we reach.
I think we can do a better job than what is normally found in guidelines, scientific articles, research papers, case studies... by making a correct differentiation and giving a clear and accurate information for the reader. We already go with advantage because we have separate pages: vegetarianism and veganism.
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 00:13, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
I think we can do a better job than what is normally found in guidelines, scientific articles, research papers, case studies—this is where we disagree, BB. My understanding of our core content policies WP:DUE and WP:OR is that this is not our job as Wikipedia editors: we are supposed to follow what reliable sources say, even if our own opinions differ.
BallenaBlanca, you recently added the following:
"Several compounds may be used for the cultivation of bacteria, such as glycine, glycerine, l-threonine, betaine, choline, or whey supplemented with yeast extract, [1] [2] [3] which may be of animal origin. [4] Another form of vitamin B12 used in food supplements is methylcobalamin, which can be produced from genetically modified micro-organisms or manufacturing semi-syntheticaly after the extraction of vitamin B12 from products of animal origin. [5]
While I appreciate your efforts, I don't think this material is appropriate here, for two policy-based reasons plus an intuitive one.
While the claim "which may be of animal origin" is pretty clearly SYNTH, the rest of the material would go well in Vitamin_B12#Fortified_foods_and_supplements. Would you be willing to move it there? FourViolas ( talk) 01:59, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Some brands of B12 supplements are vegan.<ref>Mangels</ref>? FourViolas ( talk) 00:34, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
The examples given above are not automatically weasel words.I come from a math/logic background in which "some" simply means "at least one, but not necessarily all," which seems like exactly as much information as the vague sources give us.
Anyway, is everyone else okay with "Certain brands of B12 supplements are vegan" and moving the other manufacturing information to Vitamin_B12#Synthesis_and_industrial_production? FourViolas ( talk) 17:59, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
BallenaBlanca I see what you are doing here - the argument is that even B12 from bacterial culture isn't (or might not be) vegan because the cell cultures used to grow the bacteria (might) include animal-derived ingredients. You are going to need to bring sources that actually say that about the methods actually used to produce B12 supplements. Not easy information to find. But that is what is needed. I am doing some looking but there may not be sources with level of detail. But I suggest you drop this until such a source can be provided. Otherwise this is really speculation. I agree it would be useful to get clarified, one way or the other. Jytdog ( talk) 00:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
We currently cite the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics and the German Society for Nutrition. To get a broader view, I looked through the websites and published position papers of the International Confederation of Dietetic Organizations and recorded all of their officially stated positions. I propose replacing the last section of the current diet paragraph in the lede with the following:
Multiple national and international dietetic organizations have stated that a well-planned vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of life, [1] while others recommend or caution against vegan diets for infants or pregnant and lactating women. [2]
References
Any comments or objections? FourViolas ( talk) 02:40, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
The American Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, British Dietetics Association, Dietitians of Canada, and Nordic Council of Ministers have stated that a well-planned vegan diet is appropriate for all stages of life, while the German Society for Nutrition and Danish National Health Board recommend or caution against vegan diets for infants or pregnant and lactating women? FourViolas ( talk) 00:45, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
Removed from article per WP:ELNO. Little encyclopedic value. -- Zefr ( talk) 18:08, 6 September 2017 (UTC)
I restored this content [21].
Claudio Bertonatti is one of the most renowned naturalists [1] [2] in Argentina and has written dozens of papers [22]. His opinion is perfectly valid and with firm bases of knowledge, for his academic training and professional work as a conservationist of nature for more than thirty years, as well as his past as a vegetarian. He was vegetarian because of ethical motives.
His opinion is a perfect counterpoint for this section per WP:CRITICISM and WP:NPOV, with a focus on wildlife and non-exclusivly on domestic animals. Others may consider his position elementary. Well, they are respectable opinions too... Bertonatti defends the rights of animals and to avoid their "mistreatment, cruelty and agony", but criticizes that the impacts on "an enormous amount of animals from a great diversity of wild species: from invertebrates to fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals ... become 'invisible' to the distance of a large city and consequently are unemotional. And what does not excite is not evoked" and wishes that "the thousands of wild animals that die daily poisoned by the use of agrochemicals, badly injured or shot by the hunters associated with the defense of the crops or those who remain hungry and without shelter because their environment was plowed" also had the opportunity to receive the same consideration. [2]
Best regards. -- BallenaBlanca (Talk) 18:23, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
without giving undue weight to particular viewpoints. It is thus inappropriate to select material based on what we think would be a "perfect counterpoint"; we select material based on the prominence it is given in relevant secondary literature. Bertonatti's opinions about veganism seem to have been cited exactly once, in what appears to be a Master's thesis in Sociology. For comparison, Animal Liberation has been cited over 5,000 times, according to Google Scholar.
References
Last year Claudio Bertonatti, one of the most renowned naturalists in Argentina, wrote an article that triggered an earthquake. The tsunami reached us here and is likely to extend even further. In his article, The Vegan Confusion he warns that eating vegetables doesn't prevent the death of animals.
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: External link in |quote=
(
help)
User:Harald Forkbeard about this and this and this....Please a) read and follow WP:V and WP:LEAD; b) review this page and its archives so you are aware of how heavily negotiated this article has been; and please stop adding unsourced content to the lead of this article (or any article). Thanks. Jytdog ( talk) 19:50, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Within the wider vegan community -- as well as among those thinkers foundational to vegan philosophy *AND* diets -- the notion that so-called "dietary veganism" qualifies as veganism represents the minorty opinion. Wiki is supposed to be neutral. This article greatly over-represents this minority opinion. The attempts to subvert the majority, popular opinion within the vegan community can be demonstrated to be economically and politically motivated in many cases. comment added by Zhachev ( talk • contribs) 01:32, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources, not just those within the "vegan community". For example, a peer-reviewed paper about authenticity among vegans writes,
In this paper, I distinguish between health vegans, environmental vegans and ethical vegans. A health vegan eats a plant-based diet to lose weight or to improve physical health. However,they do not incorporate veganism into other aspects of their lives, nor are they primarily concerned with animal rights issues. An environmental vegan is concerned about the environmental impact of the meat industry. However,they may purchase leather products over polyvinyl chloride (PVC), thinking that leather is a better choice for the environment. An ethical vegan is one who adopts a vegan diet for moral, ethical and political reasons. The diet forms only part of a lifestyle that is structured around a philosophy of animal rights. [1]
Some vegans think these terms are unnecessary as they believe veganism is not a diet. These people define health vegans as "pure vegetarians" or "plant-based eaters." Nonetheless, I use the terms "health vegan" and "ethical vegan," because these are the terms my participants use.
These are not merely descriptive differences; they are value-laden within the vegan community. Some leaders in the vegan movement (citations) applaud anyone who tries to eliminate animal-based food in their diet. As the goal is to reduce animal suffering, the factors that motivate veganism are irrelevant. Other vegan leaders, such as Francione, Best and Regan, are more critical of people who simply choose an apolitical vegan diet. [...] They want to preserve veganism as an anti- establishment politic, as well as an ethic about animal liberation,
_____
References
In the "Soy" section, I see the word "mince". Does that mean ground meat? If so, maybe we should just delete it because it's immediately followed by "veggie burgers" which would be redundant. Mksword ( talk) 20:18, 19 December 2017 (UTC)
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This article might be improved by a section on the criticisms of veganism that have been made. The main one that I have seen is that it ignores the cost to animal life involved in producing the foods that vegans are willing to eat, grains, pulses, etc. For example, a farmer said "the cure for veggies is to take them ploughing", meaning that grain production involves the killing of great numbers of insects, nematodes and small mammals, such as field mice, frogs, toads, possibly birds also, etc. Hence, the argument goes, vegans are living in a self-indulgent delusion. It would be helpful if this sort of approach could be fully explored and evaluated in the article. Seadowns ( talk) 10:31, 24 January 2018 (UTC)
I've attempted to add a section and it was summarily reverted. Good luck getting a word in esgwwise against the shill army! Wolfmankurd ( talk) 01:48, 30 January 2018 (UTC)
Hey Jytdog, I noticed that you effectively reverted the quotes I added in the previous edit. Although I usually would not care, since I understand that sometimes lengthy quotes can be considered superfluous, your edit summary seems to cite WP:SOAP as the rationale. This is confusing for me. Could you please explain what you mean by that?
My initial impression is that you might be suggesting that my inclusion of those quotes constituted soapboxing (
advocacy?), but I would rather you state so than assume so. If that is your rationale, however, then I am not sure how including relevant quotes from the source which substantiate the claim being cited (which is the function of the quote
parameter) qualifies as that. If my use of the quote
parameter does, then please let me know because I am unaware of any policy or guideline which defines such use as a violation of
WP:SOAP (or any other policy or guideline).
I bring this up not to quibble, but because the result of this discussion will inform my usual editing practices going forward, especially on this article. (I have recently been filling out many citations and adding quotes during the process.) I would rather not unwittingly engage in behavior that appears to violate WP:SOAP, so any explanation you or anyone else could provide for why the quotes I have added appear to violate such guidelines would help me ensure I avoid such behavior. If there is none, then is there any other reason why the quotes should be omitted? If not, then naturally I recommend reinstating them.
Thank you for your time and any input you are willing to provide on this matter. ― Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 01:04, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
quote
parameter unless the content is not freely accessible online,
Jytdog? If so, should I proceed to clean out the quotes I have been adding in the citations, at least where similar in form to the ones you removed from this article? Or should I leave them for now and let someone else determine which are worth omission? Lastly, is this usage guideline according to a particular Wikipedia policy or guideline I should review and remember, or is this just your personal recommendation? If the latter, then that's fine, too. I just want to know whether such behavior violates established policies or guidelines on Wikipedia, since I am not aware of that being the case.Alternatively, if there are any such articles or essays (or sections thereof) you know on when to use quotes in citations, that would also be helpful. I have seen citation quotes used inconsistently and without any clear rationale throughout Wikipedia, so I have been relying on my own interpretation of what scant usage guidelines I could find. For example, the most specific I have encountered is under
WP:HOWCITE's section entitled "
Additional annotation", but that seems capable of supporting both my inclusion of the quotes and your exclusion of them. Thanks again for whatever further input you are willing to provide. ―
Nøkkenbuer (
talk •
contribs) 03:39, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Moved to talk [23].
I trimmedcontent this content, based on opinions [24] and it has been added again [25]. For health claims we need to comply with WP:MEDRS. -- BallenaBlanca 🐳 ♂ (Talk) 10:06, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I do not understand the rationale you provided in your edit summary when you reverted my , BallenaBlanca. You stated that the two people are "unknown" and "non-notable" persons, yet I do not see why that matters. The first person, Sophia Nguyen, is simply the author of the cited source; she's about as "unknown" and "non-notable" as almost all the authors cited in the citations of this article (and basically all Wikipedia articles). I only included her name to provide attribution given that the assertion appeared to have been more of an opinion than a fact to me, and to clarify that Nina Gheihman (the second person) was not the author to anyone reading just the paragraph. As for the notability of Gheihman, this likewise seems irrelevant given that we cite rather obscure academics, authors, and journalists on Wikipedia all the time. What matters is the content and the sourcing rather than the claimant per se.
Regardless, notability guidelines do not apply to content within an article, since such guidelines only pertain to the notability of a subject in determining whether they should have their own article. Since this is about article content, what matters is whether the content is verifiable, has a neutral point of view (especially in being given due weight), and adheres to Biographies of living persons policies. I considered my edit to have satisfied all those conditions; if I did not, I frankly would not have submitted it.
With that said, what specific issue do you have with the content I added? If it's just the notability of the persons being mentioned, then I naturally suggest reinstating the content. If it's more than that, though, then perhaps I can try to address it. Thanks for your time. ― Nøkkenbuer ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Zefr: Hello, I reviewed the "Veganism" article recently, and it referenced a study [citation 237 in the article]. I downloaded the study and after detailed review of the study, I had suggested the following edits to the "Health effects" section, to make the section accurately reflect what the study was stating:
1. Add the following statement (extracted from the same citation 237 in the article): "The review notes that disease incidence and mortality are two very different outcomes, with cardiovascular and cancer mortality being greatly influenced by the treatment approaches." The reason why this edit is important is because (as the citation notes) it is an important distinction - mortality is influenced by treatment regimens. As the study authors note, that largely explains the difference between lowered risk of heart disease (as the section notes) and the fact that mortality rate are unaffected.
2. In the "Health Effects" section, the last paragraph ONLY mentions the negative aspects of Veganism- namely that it can cause B12 deficiencies, etc. which is indeed noted in the references. However, Veganism does have benefits as well, as noted in the SAME citation [23]. Hence I took verbatim the following sentence, and edited the last paragraph to add it up front in the paragraph: "A vegetarian diet is associated with many health benefits because of its higher content of fiber, folic acid, vitamins C and E, potassium, magnesium, and many phytochemicals and a fat content that is more unsaturated."
Both the above edits were rejected and reverted. Please reconsider, as I am only trying to make the section more accurate and balanced, using the EXACT SAME references that the article currently references (citation 237 and 23).
This is my first Wikipedia edit, and I am hoping it will be a positive experience, with editors of this article being unbiased. My interest is in accuracy, and ensuring the article notes both positive and negative aspects in the "Health Effects" section, which it currently does not (ESPECIALLY THE LAST PARAGRAPH, which only notes the negative aspects).
Since I am new to Wikipedia edits, please suggest an alternative mechanism/process for editorial communications, if this Talk page is not the appropriate mechanism. (I was unable to find a user-friendly way to directly respond to the edit comments on my own Talk page).
Thanks!
I believe the article should contain an image of Donald Watson . He was the founder of the worlds first vegan society and the person who coined the term vegan. He is a significant figure in the history of the movement. A free image exists on Wikimedia of him shortly before his death in 2008 reading the historic copy of the first vegan newsletter ever published in 1944. I am including this in the section of Coining the term vegan . Lumos3 ( talk) 13:36, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
The notion that Jainism has a history that long is suspect to most non‐Jains and should probably not be presented uncritically 72.184.20.135 ( talk) 23:17, 19 May 2018 (UTC)
The section headed "Pet food" says that veganism is sometimes extended to cats and dogs. I have long understood that cats cannot be vegetarian and need to have meat in their diet. Is this an inaccuracy in the article? Vorbee ( talk) 18:26, 2 June 2018 (UTC)
The posters on this page are pro vegan, and they will push that all veganism is good. --Mapsfly ( talk) 22:31, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
The various common pronunciations of this word are an important aspect of this concept and discussions about it. There is no reason to remove well-sourced information about this, and not only because it's one of the common reasons readers look up this article. It's especially weird that someone thinks they have the right to demand a justification for including well-sourced information instead of first leaving it in and starting a discussion about it here. Spurious arguments like claiming that info in a footnote clutters the lead make such editing look even more like vandalism. -- Espoo ( talk) 16:09, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
I had – and have lost – a tab open with a source that said the health effects of a vegan diet on preventing cancer require about 15 years to appear. This is (a) not surprising, given that most solid cancers grow for years before they're detected, and (b) not what the average fad dieter is hoping. (This review also found about a 20% reduction for several common cancers, but higher risks for a few other kinds of cancer.) I assume that the minimum-time-to-benefit is shorter for heart disease, but I haven't looked for any sources on that subject.
If anyone can find a source that addresses this subject, I think that it would be good to include this information. WhatamIdoing ( talk) 03:46, 6 August 2018 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I want to adding the gallery into Vegan article is like Vegetarianism , I think first to moving Vegan food or is same picture in gallery in this article , There is want to collect veganism photographs in there can collecting the picture is really important thing , If anyone can help me to removing vegan picture into gallery most ? I think it's not vandalism for this article. Geoffreyrabbit ( talk) 14:09, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
The dispute concerns Veganism#Gallery. One view is that we usually do not include galleries, per WP:Gallery, and the gallery does not appear needed. The other view is that a collection of veganism diet pictures in a gallery is an improvement. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 04:26, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Why does this article initially have letters as in-line citation reference codes (up to h) and then switch to numbers, from 28 onwards? Vorbee ( talk) 17:09, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 11:36, 9 September 2018 (UTC)
Please mention pronunciation debate [28]. Jidanni ( talk) 10:19, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
I noticed that an editor had added a 'Religion' section and referenced Genesis 1:29, but was reverted. Genesis 1:29 seems applicable to the page, and is maybe the oldest (or one of the oldest) references of a "vegan" diet (at the time 'vegan' wasn't needed because it was just 'diet'). Why the revert and not just a clean-up on the new addition? Thanks. Randy Kryn ( talk) 11:33, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
"particularly in diet" virtually means only in diet, which is not accurate. I suggest "at least in diet". Any objections to "at least in diet"? Alec Gargett ( talk) 04:50, 26 January 2019 (UTC)
I made basic formatting improvements to the article improving readability with explanations in the edit description. Flyer22 Reborn has reverted them without explanation claiming I need to discuss on the talk page first. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Veganism&type=revision&diff=880230898&oldid=880224464) However, since I justified the edits in the edit descriptions and he did not provide any explanation for reverting, and there is no plausible explanation, this seems unreasonable. I agree with the arguments made in Wikipedia:Reverting#Explain_reverts and Wikipedia:Revert_only_when_necessary and think Flyer22 Reborn should follow the advice in these essays, especially since this is not the first time he has done something like this. I attempted to discuss this with Flyer22 on his talk page, but he reverted my contribution to his talk page, again saying the description that I need to discuss every edit including minor edits that I make to this article on the talk page first. This would make progress on Wikipedia incredibly slow if it were followed and has no apparent benefits. He does not seem at all willing to discuss why he objects simple formatting edits or even whether he even looked at them before reverting. For an example of me trying to discuss a relatively minor edit first above. I did not get a good explanation for his opposition to my proposed change but I know from previous experience that Flyer22 would revert regardless. I could provide a very good explanation for the reverted formatting edits too, but I don't see the point of requiring me to "discuss" and get approval for every single edit in advance no matter how minor (or any of them) except to discourage me from attempting to improve the article by making it no longer worth my time. There is a lot of work to be done on this article and if I have to discuss every little thing before hand it will make the whole process much more time consuming for no apparent benefit. Alec Gargett ( talk) 05:30, 26 January 2019 (UTC)