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Note: This argument also applies to Malá Fatra/Lesser Fatra.
A move of this article to Veľká Fatra has been proposed by User:Svetovid, see Name below, providing some evidence to support that move, here's a bit larger analysis of the topic.
The Wikipedia guidline says: "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.
There exist more versions of the English name: Greater Fatra, Great Fatra, Large Fatra, and Big Fatra. The last too are not very frequent and are rather just erroneous translations so they won't be included in this discussion. Veľká Fatra is undisputably the local name, which is also frequently used on pages written in English.
To determine whether a name is widely accepted, the guidelines suggest using various resources:
Discussion : While the latest verison of MS Encarta uses Greater Fatra, modern version of Britannica doesn't have any reference to the name (I do not have access to older versions). The free 1911 Britannica and The Columbia Gazetteer of the World of 1953 use Great Fatra. A major book on the geology of the Carpathians uses Great and Little Fatra consistently. These finds don't provide a clear resolution, nonetheless these results prove the English version have been in use for at least a 100 years (though the guidelines suggest using only post 1993 resources, the older finds prove the English version of the name is not a new invention).
As of any Google results, the guidelines suggest not just counting the hits, but reading them. And there's another issue, there exists a national park of the same name and many references lead to articles on the protected area. As it is the official name of an instituation, it isn't generally translated (the Wikipedia article on the national park uses the Slovak name too).
Only four hits for Velka Fatra (unaccented), all Slovak, only summary in English.
Discussion : Generally the topic is not very frequent in any resources, most common is the unaccented version of the local name, i.e. Velka Fatra. Many hits point to non-English resources.
Lonely Planet guidebooks use Velka Fatra. They are not consistent though, e.g. the Slovenský raj is under its Slovak name only, though a widely used translation the Slovak Paradise exists. The guidelines also suggest the local name "… is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say …".
I haven't checked any other guidebooks (Rough Guides, Baedekers), however the main purpose of a guidebook is to help the travelers, so the use of local names is logical. The same apllies, in my view, for the maps.
There are many published papers by the scientific community in perfect English which use the English names primarily:
These comments deal mainly with the links suggested in Name
Both Google Search and Google News show large prevalence of the Velka Fatra (unaccented) name. As for the news that's a general trend in the media to use the local names, but there's no quideline saying Wikipedia should follow that trend. There's been a discussion on this topic at Pilsen and the Wikipedia community decided for keeping at Pilsen even though major encyclopaedias have it under Plzeň, the media prefer Plzen (unaccented). General search inludes so many factors to consider that they aren't used as evidence in disputes.
Wikipedia guidelines say "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it", not that the most common name in English texts is to be used. English names are Great/Greater Fatra while Veľká Fatra is the local name which is widely used in English texts as well. If English resources use the local name, it's more common in its unaccented form, i.e. Velka Fatra, which might be rather confusing.
There are enough resources showing the English names are used in encyclopaedias, official documents, materials of international institutions. And they've been in use for over a hundred years.
Many resources are inconsistent in the use of the names and while using the English names for some places, they use the Slovak names for other ones though common English versions exist. Wikipedia's usage (which seems to be a consensus of the community) seems to be consistent as it uses the English names when they exist (High/Low Tatra(s), Little Carpathians, White Carpathians, Slovak Paradise, Slovak Karst, and even Slovak Ore Mountains, also names such as Štiavnica Mountains). Furthermoere, if the frequency of use is to be considered the main evidence for a move the same should be probably applied to all other Slovak loclities.
If there's a consensus local names should be prefered over their English versions than all names should be named, not just names of two Ranges whose English versions closely resemble the local names and are easily identifiable evan for a non-English speaker, just with the generic part translated (contrary to Slovak Ore Mountains which is a bit free translation). Divisions of the Carpathians prefer English names as well, not only for Slovak Ranges.
If any move is proposed it should be first posted at WP:RM. From the presented data it seems the name Great Fatra is prefered over Greater Fatra so perhaps that name should be used preferably. Even though the name Greater Fatra seems to be linguisticly better, but that's only a matter of personal preference.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Caroig ( talk • contribs) 16:04, 16 June 2007.
Note: This argument also applies to Malá Fatra/Lesser Fatra.
The name of the article and the range in any other article referring to it should be "a widely accepted English name," as required by logic, guidelines and policies.
Which is it then? The original Veľká Fatra or one of the direct English translations?
After looking into various sources substantially, Veľká Fatra comes as the only "widely accepted English name."
List of sources (examples):
Environmental agencies:
The UN,
eeconet.org and
WWF all use the Slovak name only.
Native speakers:
worldinfozone.com,
naturetrek.co.uk,
photographersdirect.com, and
mtsobek.com. The examples are significant, because they come from pages for hikers, people who are usually more knowledgeable about mountains and such.
SummitPost.org uses Malá Fatra.
Travel guides:
Lonely Planet uses Velka Fatra and Mala Fatra (p. 372) in their Blue Guide and
Malá Fatra again in Central Europe (p 464),
Eastern Europe (p 798) and
europe on a shoestring (p 994). The Rough Guide to Czech & Slovak Republics uses
Malá Fatra.
Google News search (English sources only) gives
0 results for Greater Fatra and only
1 result for Lesser Fatra but
13 results for Velka Fatra and
78 results for Mala Fatra. This clearly shows that whenever the mountains are mentioned, English journalists use the native names only.
Google Scholar: 43 results for
Velka Fatra and only 2 results for
Greater Fatra.
221 results for Mala Fatra and only
1 result for Lesser Fatra, which is a translation in a book in Slovak.
Library of Congress Online Catalog: see translations
[5],
[6],
[7].
The Slovak Tourist Board uses the native names in English:
[8],
[9],
[10],
[11].
The Slovak Spectator (written by native speakers) and its travel guide to Slovakia use Malá Fatra and Veľká Fatra (Great is used only as a translation just like it is supposed to in this article):
[12],
[13] and
news.
Also see
an opinion from a native speaker currently living in Slovakia.
Number of Google hits is inaccurate but the number of results (in English pages only) for
Velka Fatra (20,300) versus
Greater Fatra (66) is so overwhelming it needs to be used. By the way, even Great Fatra gets 4 times the number of hits.
The fact that a translated name exists is not an evidence that it's also widely used. Native names are used commonly in English. We still have
Morskie Oko,
Picos de Europa or
Colle di Cadibona instead of Sea Eye, Peaks of Europe and Cadibona Hill.--
Svetovid 10:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
How about starting a poll about the name preference? - Darwinek 09:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Greater Fatra →
Veľká Fatra — All the evidence for using the native name as the widely accepted English name has been shown in the above discussion. The fact that various English translations exist is another reason to use the native name to stop confusion. If you have any doubts or questions, please discuss them before voting.—
Svetovid 13:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.“ | When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. | ” |
Given the recent number of moves of this page, I am reluctant to fall back on the rather unsatisfactory "no consensus" outcome. Several other page moves are related to this one, and are likely to follow the outcome of this discussion. I emplore all those concerned to discuss the issues calmly and to try to come to an agreement. I have, accordingly, relisted this move at WP:RM to allow more time. -- Stemonitis 16:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 05:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It's like the above discussion never happened and
Caroig (
talk ·
contribs) keeps ignoring that the Slovak name is also widely used by English speakers and thus should be in bold according to Wikipedia's guidelines.
For the last time: this is not just a native name (which are normally in italics); this is an alternate name used in English (thus bold).--
Svetovid 15:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Lesser Fatra#Move? If that page were to move, presumably this one would move too. Feel free to comment in that discussion. EdJohnston ( talk) 22:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Note: This argument also applies to Malá Fatra/Lesser Fatra.
A move of this article to Veľká Fatra has been proposed by User:Svetovid, see Name below, providing some evidence to support that move, here's a bit larger analysis of the topic.
The Wikipedia guidline says: "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it.
There exist more versions of the English name: Greater Fatra, Great Fatra, Large Fatra, and Big Fatra. The last too are not very frequent and are rather just erroneous translations so they won't be included in this discussion. Veľká Fatra is undisputably the local name, which is also frequently used on pages written in English.
To determine whether a name is widely accepted, the guidelines suggest using various resources:
Discussion : While the latest verison of MS Encarta uses Greater Fatra, modern version of Britannica doesn't have any reference to the name (I do not have access to older versions). The free 1911 Britannica and The Columbia Gazetteer of the World of 1953 use Great Fatra. A major book on the geology of the Carpathians uses Great and Little Fatra consistently. These finds don't provide a clear resolution, nonetheless these results prove the English version have been in use for at least a 100 years (though the guidelines suggest using only post 1993 resources, the older finds prove the English version of the name is not a new invention).
As of any Google results, the guidelines suggest not just counting the hits, but reading them. And there's another issue, there exists a national park of the same name and many references lead to articles on the protected area. As it is the official name of an instituation, it isn't generally translated (the Wikipedia article on the national park uses the Slovak name too).
Only four hits for Velka Fatra (unaccented), all Slovak, only summary in English.
Discussion : Generally the topic is not very frequent in any resources, most common is the unaccented version of the local name, i.e. Velka Fatra. Many hits point to non-English resources.
Lonely Planet guidebooks use Velka Fatra. They are not consistent though, e.g. the Slovenský raj is under its Slovak name only, though a widely used translation the Slovak Paradise exists. The guidelines also suggest the local name "… is attesting to local usage, because that is what the signs on the autobahn will say …".
I haven't checked any other guidebooks (Rough Guides, Baedekers), however the main purpose of a guidebook is to help the travelers, so the use of local names is logical. The same apllies, in my view, for the maps.
There are many published papers by the scientific community in perfect English which use the English names primarily:
These comments deal mainly with the links suggested in Name
Both Google Search and Google News show large prevalence of the Velka Fatra (unaccented) name. As for the news that's a general trend in the media to use the local names, but there's no quideline saying Wikipedia should follow that trend. There's been a discussion on this topic at Pilsen and the Wikipedia community decided for keeping at Pilsen even though major encyclopaedias have it under Plzeň, the media prefer Plzen (unaccented). General search inludes so many factors to consider that they aren't used as evidence in disputes.
Wikipedia guidelines say "When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it", not that the most common name in English texts is to be used. English names are Great/Greater Fatra while Veľká Fatra is the local name which is widely used in English texts as well. If English resources use the local name, it's more common in its unaccented form, i.e. Velka Fatra, which might be rather confusing.
There are enough resources showing the English names are used in encyclopaedias, official documents, materials of international institutions. And they've been in use for over a hundred years.
Many resources are inconsistent in the use of the names and while using the English names for some places, they use the Slovak names for other ones though common English versions exist. Wikipedia's usage (which seems to be a consensus of the community) seems to be consistent as it uses the English names when they exist (High/Low Tatra(s), Little Carpathians, White Carpathians, Slovak Paradise, Slovak Karst, and even Slovak Ore Mountains, also names such as Štiavnica Mountains). Furthermoere, if the frequency of use is to be considered the main evidence for a move the same should be probably applied to all other Slovak loclities.
If there's a consensus local names should be prefered over their English versions than all names should be named, not just names of two Ranges whose English versions closely resemble the local names and are easily identifiable evan for a non-English speaker, just with the generic part translated (contrary to Slovak Ore Mountains which is a bit free translation). Divisions of the Carpathians prefer English names as well, not only for Slovak Ranges.
If any move is proposed it should be first posted at WP:RM. From the presented data it seems the name Great Fatra is prefered over Greater Fatra so perhaps that name should be used preferably. Even though the name Greater Fatra seems to be linguisticly better, but that's only a matter of personal preference.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Caroig ( talk • contribs) 16:04, 16 June 2007.
Note: This argument also applies to Malá Fatra/Lesser Fatra.
The name of the article and the range in any other article referring to it should be "a widely accepted English name," as required by logic, guidelines and policies.
Which is it then? The original Veľká Fatra or one of the direct English translations?
After looking into various sources substantially, Veľká Fatra comes as the only "widely accepted English name."
List of sources (examples):
Environmental agencies:
The UN,
eeconet.org and
WWF all use the Slovak name only.
Native speakers:
worldinfozone.com,
naturetrek.co.uk,
photographersdirect.com, and
mtsobek.com. The examples are significant, because they come from pages for hikers, people who are usually more knowledgeable about mountains and such.
SummitPost.org uses Malá Fatra.
Travel guides:
Lonely Planet uses Velka Fatra and Mala Fatra (p. 372) in their Blue Guide and
Malá Fatra again in Central Europe (p 464),
Eastern Europe (p 798) and
europe on a shoestring (p 994). The Rough Guide to Czech & Slovak Republics uses
Malá Fatra.
Google News search (English sources only) gives
0 results for Greater Fatra and only
1 result for Lesser Fatra but
13 results for Velka Fatra and
78 results for Mala Fatra. This clearly shows that whenever the mountains are mentioned, English journalists use the native names only.
Google Scholar: 43 results for
Velka Fatra and only 2 results for
Greater Fatra.
221 results for Mala Fatra and only
1 result for Lesser Fatra, which is a translation in a book in Slovak.
Library of Congress Online Catalog: see translations
[5],
[6],
[7].
The Slovak Tourist Board uses the native names in English:
[8],
[9],
[10],
[11].
The Slovak Spectator (written by native speakers) and its travel guide to Slovakia use Malá Fatra and Veľká Fatra (Great is used only as a translation just like it is supposed to in this article):
[12],
[13] and
news.
Also see
an opinion from a native speaker currently living in Slovakia.
Number of Google hits is inaccurate but the number of results (in English pages only) for
Velka Fatra (20,300) versus
Greater Fatra (66) is so overwhelming it needs to be used. By the way, even Great Fatra gets 4 times the number of hits.
The fact that a translated name exists is not an evidence that it's also widely used. Native names are used commonly in English. We still have
Morskie Oko,
Picos de Europa or
Colle di Cadibona instead of Sea Eye, Peaks of Europe and Cadibona Hill.--
Svetovid 10:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
How about starting a poll about the name preference? - Darwinek 09:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Greater Fatra →
Veľká Fatra — All the evidence for using the native name as the widely accepted English name has been shown in the above discussion. The fact that various English translations exist is another reason to use the native name to stop confusion. If you have any doubts or questions, please discuss them before voting.—
Svetovid 13:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
*'''Support'''
or *'''Oppose'''
, then sign your comment with ~~~~
. Since
polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account
Wikipedia's naming conventions.“ | When a widely accepted English name, in a modern context, exists for a place, we should use it. | ” |
Given the recent number of moves of this page, I am reluctant to fall back on the rather unsatisfactory "no consensus" outcome. Several other page moves are related to this one, and are likely to follow the outcome of this discussion. I emplore all those concerned to discuss the issues calmly and to try to come to an agreement. I have, accordingly, relisted this move at WP:RM to allow more time. -- Stemonitis 16:30, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stemonitis 05:50, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
It's like the above discussion never happened and
Caroig (
talk ·
contribs) keeps ignoring that the Slovak name is also widely used by English speakers and thus should be in bold according to Wikipedia's guidelines.
For the last time: this is not just a native name (which are normally in italics); this is an alternate name used in English (thus bold).--
Svetovid 15:52, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Lesser Fatra#Move? If that page were to move, presumably this one would move too. Feel free to comment in that discussion. EdJohnston ( talk) 22:53, 24 January 2013 (UTC)