![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||
|
Hello and thank you for this article. Please keep in mind the United Nations has overwhelmingly voted 130 nations and more to 2 or 3 against the illegal blockade of Cuba by the United States. It has done so several times. The International Community does not support such acts of destabilization of sovereign nations by foreign interests. I find it ironic at best that the same persons who work against Cuba, such as this "project" and its sponsors, find the face to continue doing so in light of the Internationnal Community's resolutions at the United Nations. The illegal blockade of Cuba is inhumane and causes countless deaths and injuries to Cubans. The illegal blockade of Cuba is also a political tool of imperialism and has obviously little if anything to do with human rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.28.187 ( talk) 11:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas, If Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas and Oswaldo Payá are the same person, then this sentence should be fixed. Oswaldo Payá, Regarding the name, both are used in newspaper and internet articles. Not sure how he refers to himself. Fred Bauder 13:31, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)
From everything I've read about him and by him, it's Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas. However in Spanish it's perfectly acceptable to refer to someone by just their first surname, in this case Oswaldo Payá. SantoDomingo71 23:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I broke the article into three parts, a neutral opening paragraph, the Cuban POV and the external (largely US State Department) POV. I think this is a good idea as it makes it easier for the reader of the article to distinguish what is POV and what is neutral. BruceHallman 19:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The POV tag was recently added, with 'see talk' but no associated 'talk' was posted. BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The State Department press release identifies 75 political prisoners. Are the names of these people made public anywhere? BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears on the WWW that there are 77 prisoners of conscience, but that the number related to the Varela Project is much less. What is correct? BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Another source -- FRCP11 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.adcuba.org/Reportes/CCDHRN/CCDHRN_Informe_II_Semestre_2006_7.pdf includes only the ones still in prison. The footnotes give the affiliation - the Christian Liberation Movement ones are "Varela project", it's just sloppy popular conflation of the terms (
http://www.mclpaya.org/). You can also look at the dates and match them to what ever series of arrests you're counting. Sorry I don't have them to hand in translation, but I imagine you read spanish since this is an area of particular interest to you.
There have been these curiously precise numbers reported of prisoners of conscious held by the Cuban government ever since I can remember. The precision almost does make them seem made up, but apparently someone is actually keeping the lists up-to-date. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch seem to find them generally credible and frequently cite the statistics. (Although they count in slightly different sorts of people, so they're almost always 3-5 off from each other.) Lisamh
The article has been sanitized -- verifiable accounts of what actually happened have been POV-forked into a subsection, and given equal weight with demonstrably false Cuban propaganda. Reports from human rights organizations such as IAHCR have been falsely characterized as coming from the US government. The State Department report is neutral, and not a single fact from it is disputed, and should be restored to the main text. -- FRCP11 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The logic of the phrase 'rejected by the government' is bad. Article #88(h) of the Cuban Constitution allows for legislative proposals backed by at least 10,000 citizens to be submitted directly to the National Assembly. The government, per Article #75(b) of the Constitution has every right to not accept any and all such proposals. BruceHallman 23:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to focus on everything but what the Varela Project is; it focuses entirely on the controversy around the attempt to get signatures but never informs the reader what the proposal was for. For a NPOV, this might be a good start. Windupcanary
Hallman has placed the Communist-propaganda line at the front of the article, with refutation of the blatantly untrue claims in there segregated into other sections, but feels the need to "balance" those other sections with additional Castro-propaganda lines. There's other slants in there: putting things like the UNHCR and IAHRC reports under "US State Department" to make it seem that these independent organizations have an anti-Cuba bias as opposed to an anti-totalitarian bias. This article needs dramatic cleanup because Hallman has made a complete hash of it in his efforts to sanitize criticism of his beloved dictator Castro. -- FRCP11 04:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I am criticizing your bad-faith edits, not you. Your edits consistently violate WP:NPOV, and you hold material accurately criticizing Cuba to a standard you don't hold Cuban propaganda. A one-day trial where one is deprived an attorney or knowledge of the charges against them, where the judge answers to the prosecuting authority, is a summary trial by any definition. Hallman is asking me to repeat research I've already done. I refuse to do further research for this article until Hallman is banned from Wikipedia, because experience has taught me that Hallman will simply delete any research I do in a multi-step editing process of moving text around away from their cites and then deleting the moved text as supposed original research, as he has already done with this article.
Unfortunately, Wikipedia rewards persistence over good faith and accuracy, so I can't win this battle with Hallman and restore this article to NPOV and accuracy, and Wikipedia suffers as a result. -- FRCP11 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone posted vague claims that both the BBC and the State Department's statements on the Varela Project crackdown are based on incomplete evidence and a lack of understanding of the issue. The claim that the State Department has not spent "any real" time in Cuba is demonstrably false, since they have maintained an official Interests Section in Havana. Also, that's a pretty strong accusation to make against the BBC, one of the most respected news sources in the world. In the interest of fairness, I'll give it a week for someone to include *legitimate* supporting evidence, otherwise I'll have to remove these suspect and unsubstantiated claims. Cheers, SantoDomingo71 18:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The article contains this statement, "The Varela Project is part of a strategy of subversion against Cuba that has been conceived, financed, and directed from abroad with the active participation of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana." If true, this would be front page news, but I see no reliable source for this assertion. One can say, of course, that no user asserted this, only the government of Cuba, but it remains unverifiable information from an unreliable source. Fred Bauder 17:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
You cite evidence of exploitation of anti-Castro and democratic activism by the United States. The quotation is "subversion against Cuba that has been conceived, financed, and directed from abroad". Fred Bauder 00:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
As to who to believe, the propaganda of neither nation is a reliable source. Fred Bauder 00:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned by the latest edit summary provided by YINever, accompanied by a straight revert. Would that user please address issues on this talk page before future action.-- Zleitzen 23:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Please answer the above questions. Also, below is a list of issues I have with your unilateral and unexplained changes;
Below is a specific list of changes you have made to the article. Please explain your reasons.
Whilst I have no opinions on your changes made (at this juncture), it is imperative that in future you also address / justify major changes to an article on the talk page, rather than inconclusively via an edit summary. This helps consensus and enables other users to comment. This is particularly pertinent for an article where the content is in dispute. Thank you. -- Zleitzen 11:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Where is the text of the Varela Project initiative that people signed? Where is the text of Cuban government initiative that people signed? Int21h ( talk) 05:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
BEFORE HATE: Apologies on removing the page; I was not aware this discussion function existed
This page is biased and uses sources that are not credible.
These sources are not credible because either:
(a) They are from a source that has a vested interest in seeing socialism fall, or
(b) They have information that can not be backed up. For example, the BBC news report states that the Cuban people felt pressured into voting for the amendment to the constitution. However, there is no verifiable source to back this up.
I recommend rewriting this article with a mix of credible sources, with some that respect the decision and others that condemn it.
Sincerely,
Marcus Khaos — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.129.35 ( talk) 17:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Varela Project. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Hello and thank you for this article. Please keep in mind the United Nations has overwhelmingly voted 130 nations and more to 2 or 3 against the illegal blockade of Cuba by the United States. It has done so several times. The International Community does not support such acts of destabilization of sovereign nations by foreign interests. I find it ironic at best that the same persons who work against Cuba, such as this "project" and its sponsors, find the face to continue doing so in light of the Internationnal Community's resolutions at the United Nations. The illegal blockade of Cuba is inhumane and causes countless deaths and injuries to Cubans. The illegal blockade of Cuba is also a political tool of imperialism and has obviously little if anything to do with human rights. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.104.28.187 ( talk) 11:31, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas, If Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas and Oswaldo Payá are the same person, then this sentence should be fixed. Oswaldo Payá, Regarding the name, both are used in newspaper and internet articles. Not sure how he refers to himself. Fred Bauder 13:31, Aug 14, 2004 (UTC)
From everything I've read about him and by him, it's Oswaldo Payá Sardiñas. However in Spanish it's perfectly acceptable to refer to someone by just their first surname, in this case Oswaldo Payá. SantoDomingo71 23:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I broke the article into three parts, a neutral opening paragraph, the Cuban POV and the external (largely US State Department) POV. I think this is a good idea as it makes it easier for the reader of the article to distinguish what is POV and what is neutral. BruceHallman 19:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The POV tag was recently added, with 'see talk' but no associated 'talk' was posted. BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The State Department press release identifies 75 political prisoners. Are the names of these people made public anywhere? BruceHallman 20:26, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
It appears on the WWW that there are 77 prisoners of conscience, but that the number related to the Varela Project is much less. What is correct? BruceHallman 22:06, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Another source -- FRCP11 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
http://www.adcuba.org/Reportes/CCDHRN/CCDHRN_Informe_II_Semestre_2006_7.pdf includes only the ones still in prison. The footnotes give the affiliation - the Christian Liberation Movement ones are "Varela project", it's just sloppy popular conflation of the terms (
http://www.mclpaya.org/). You can also look at the dates and match them to what ever series of arrests you're counting. Sorry I don't have them to hand in translation, but I imagine you read spanish since this is an area of particular interest to you.
There have been these curiously precise numbers reported of prisoners of conscious held by the Cuban government ever since I can remember. The precision almost does make them seem made up, but apparently someone is actually keeping the lists up-to-date. Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch seem to find them generally credible and frequently cite the statistics. (Although they count in slightly different sorts of people, so they're almost always 3-5 off from each other.) Lisamh
The article has been sanitized -- verifiable accounts of what actually happened have been POV-forked into a subsection, and given equal weight with demonstrably false Cuban propaganda. Reports from human rights organizations such as IAHCR have been falsely characterized as coming from the US government. The State Department report is neutral, and not a single fact from it is disputed, and should be restored to the main text. -- FRCP11 20:48, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
The logic of the phrase 'rejected by the government' is bad. Article #88(h) of the Cuban Constitution allows for legislative proposals backed by at least 10,000 citizens to be submitted directly to the National Assembly. The government, per Article #75(b) of the Constitution has every right to not accept any and all such proposals. BruceHallman 23:36, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
This article seems to focus on everything but what the Varela Project is; it focuses entirely on the controversy around the attempt to get signatures but never informs the reader what the proposal was for. For a NPOV, this might be a good start. Windupcanary
Hallman has placed the Communist-propaganda line at the front of the article, with refutation of the blatantly untrue claims in there segregated into other sections, but feels the need to "balance" those other sections with additional Castro-propaganda lines. There's other slants in there: putting things like the UNHCR and IAHRC reports under "US State Department" to make it seem that these independent organizations have an anti-Cuba bias as opposed to an anti-totalitarian bias. This article needs dramatic cleanup because Hallman has made a complete hash of it in his efforts to sanitize criticism of his beloved dictator Castro. -- FRCP11 04:12, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I am criticizing your bad-faith edits, not you. Your edits consistently violate WP:NPOV, and you hold material accurately criticizing Cuba to a standard you don't hold Cuban propaganda. A one-day trial where one is deprived an attorney or knowledge of the charges against them, where the judge answers to the prosecuting authority, is a summary trial by any definition. Hallman is asking me to repeat research I've already done. I refuse to do further research for this article until Hallman is banned from Wikipedia, because experience has taught me that Hallman will simply delete any research I do in a multi-step editing process of moving text around away from their cites and then deleting the moved text as supposed original research, as he has already done with this article.
Unfortunately, Wikipedia rewards persistence over good faith and accuracy, so I can't win this battle with Hallman and restore this article to NPOV and accuracy, and Wikipedia suffers as a result. -- FRCP11 15:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Someone posted vague claims that both the BBC and the State Department's statements on the Varela Project crackdown are based on incomplete evidence and a lack of understanding of the issue. The claim that the State Department has not spent "any real" time in Cuba is demonstrably false, since they have maintained an official Interests Section in Havana. Also, that's a pretty strong accusation to make against the BBC, one of the most respected news sources in the world. In the interest of fairness, I'll give it a week for someone to include *legitimate* supporting evidence, otherwise I'll have to remove these suspect and unsubstantiated claims. Cheers, SantoDomingo71 18:10, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
The article contains this statement, "The Varela Project is part of a strategy of subversion against Cuba that has been conceived, financed, and directed from abroad with the active participation of the U.S. Interests Section in Havana." If true, this would be front page news, but I see no reliable source for this assertion. One can say, of course, that no user asserted this, only the government of Cuba, but it remains unverifiable information from an unreliable source. Fred Bauder 17:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
You cite evidence of exploitation of anti-Castro and democratic activism by the United States. The quotation is "subversion against Cuba that has been conceived, financed, and directed from abroad". Fred Bauder 00:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
As to who to believe, the propaganda of neither nation is a reliable source. Fred Bauder 00:14, 2 June 2006 (UTC)
I am concerned by the latest edit summary provided by YINever, accompanied by a straight revert. Would that user please address issues on this talk page before future action.-- Zleitzen 23:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
Please answer the above questions. Also, below is a list of issues I have with your unilateral and unexplained changes;
Below is a specific list of changes you have made to the article. Please explain your reasons.
Whilst I have no opinions on your changes made (at this juncture), it is imperative that in future you also address / justify major changes to an article on the talk page, rather than inconclusively via an edit summary. This helps consensus and enables other users to comment. This is particularly pertinent for an article where the content is in dispute. Thank you. -- Zleitzen 11:57, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
Where is the text of the Varela Project initiative that people signed? Where is the text of Cuban government initiative that people signed? Int21h ( talk) 05:19, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
BEFORE HATE: Apologies on removing the page; I was not aware this discussion function existed
This page is biased and uses sources that are not credible.
These sources are not credible because either:
(a) They are from a source that has a vested interest in seeing socialism fall, or
(b) They have information that can not be backed up. For example, the BBC news report states that the Cuban people felt pressured into voting for the amendment to the constitution. However, there is no verifiable source to back this up.
I recommend rewriting this article with a mix of credible sources, with some that respect the decision and others that condemn it.
Sincerely,
Marcus Khaos — Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.129.35 ( talk) 17:07, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 3 external links on Varela Project. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 01:05, 15 December 2017 (UTC)