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This is currently the oldest tagged NPOV dispute. I have read through the article and it seems good to me. From the talk page I see their is a dispute as whether to describe the language as Valencian of Catalan. Also there is disscusion here about moving the page to a new title. Are these the only things under dispute and are either of them settled?-- BirgitteSB 20:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
To avoid edit-warring a consensus was reached whereby the official name in Valencian and the unofficial translation in Spanish were to be displayed in the infobox. Given that this was an extremely controversial topic, I do agree that the removal of the Spanish name should be made by consensus.
I will just offer my two cents, and may the parties in dispute find a resolution. If other users are willing to reach a new consensus (no consensual version is permanent), it is my opinion that only the official name should be included, as the organic law of the autonomous community and all laws approved by the Parliament after the new Statute was put into effect, do not translate the name of the community if these are written in Spanish. This applies even to the webpage of the Generalitat [1], [2], [3], [4]. In fact, names of all government bodies in Valencia are not translated -in official documents- and the Generalitat is referred to as such (and not Generalidad), the President is "El President", the seat of government is "El Palau", and the ministries are "El Consell". Funny thing, however, the Valencian term "conselleria" is used for a single ministry, but the plural is hybrid: "consellerias" (where in Valencian it should be "conselleries") and note that the hybrid does not have an accent on the i, which would make "-lle-" the stressed syllable in Spanish, where in fact the stress should be on the -i- in both Valencian and Spanish. [5]
Following the same logic, it is my opinion that the term "País Valencià" should not be included in the infobox. It could be included in the opening paragraph or any other appropriate section, but not being the official name of the community, the infobox is not the place for it. -- dúnadan : let's talk 23:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
My point, as always was, is that wikipedia guidelines do not state anywhere that ONLY official names should appear. I will guide you to
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes), where you will NOT find any backing for that position; meanwhile, if you look at the
Geographical infoboxes section you may read that: "[...]Alternate or native names can appear[...]".
So basically, this means that erasing the spanish language DOES NOT follow wikipedia guidelines; geografical infoboxes are NOT ONLY for official names and "Alternate or native names can appear".
Even more, erasing the spanish language from the infobox would make these 2 articles the ONLY ones in wikipedia where the name in one of the official languages does not appear.
So, to sum up: -We agree that a consensus to keep the spanish translation was reached in the past. JaumeR did not accept it and/or failed to re-open the case to discuss it. -Wikipedia guideline allows alternate names to appear. -Spanish language being co-official in this region is enough reason to consider it a valid "alternate name".
I ask myself... What bad can the name in spanish do??? Is anybody erasing the catalan translation of the name? Then, what is the problem to add the name in another co-official language of the territory? --Maurice27 About Me, Talk, Vandalize. 17:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Some users have tried to change the map without giving any explanation in this page. There is a completely analogous discussion (so far unresolved) at Talk:Catalonia. Anybody willing to reach a consensus about that is invited to join. In the meantime I'll restore the previous long standing map. -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 11:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I fail to see the reason because of the Catalonia, Valencian Community and Balearic Islands articles need to use the same, different NUTS map while the rest of Spanish regions use the standard, country-centered version, the one which is used by all the country subdivisions articles. Again, I hope we reach a consensus - the sooner the better.
Also, I have to remind you there's no consensus for a map in many of the articles you use that as a reason for undoing changes without further discussion, so I urge you to follow Wikipedia's policies.
As a last note, I think we should discuss the entire matter in the Catalonia article's discussion, so we can avoid an unnecesary string of repeated, space-consuming edits. Icallbs ( talk) 18:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
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"…the low insulation rate and overall stable weather during the summer": what is an "insulation rate"?
"…the rate of activity reached 56.8% in 2002": what is a "rate of activity"?
Also, the economic statistics nearly all precede the current downturn; newer numbers (and perhaps some information tracing these numbers over time) would be good. - Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
The section bases all it's numbers on one study performed by a biased organisation (pro-Valencian), in which the respondants rated themselves and weren't tested.
I've lived in two "bilingual" cities, and I know that this sort of survey produces comical results. People ignore the questions and answer as if asked "Do you like your heritage?"
Does anyone have meaningful numbers? For example, how many children are in Valencian-speaking secondard schools compared to the number in Spanish-speaking schools? Gronky ( talk) 22:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
There is no "Valencian" language, it's just a variety of Catalan, just like "Texan" is a variety of American English. See Talk:Valencian#Language versus dialect and Valencian language controversy for more. Mathglot ( talk) 06:42, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
I have been working to expand this page for a few weeks now and I am appalled that the reference to "Valencian Country" has been deleted. There is a controversy about the name of the autonomous community, with the Catalan wikipedia using País Valencià (Valencian Country) and the Spanish one using Comunidad Valenciana (Valencian Community). I understand that the article is called "Valencian Community" because that is the official institutional name, but the alternative denomination is also officially recognized and has widespread usage, especially in the Valencian language. "Valencian Country" must, at least, be mentioned in the first sentence of the article, because many readers will search for "Valencian Country" and omitting this important denomination can cause confusion. And it is also important that edition in this respect is restricted once the community has achieved a consensus, otherwise there will be changes to the introduction every other week.
Just as a reminder, "Valencian Country" is the name used by the two psrties forming the coalition government at the moment in the Generalitat, it is the standard name in Catalan language, and it is used by academic institutions like the University of Valencia, the main trade unions and hundreds of civil associations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quico mm ( talk • contribs) 16:57, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Could you adress the problems instead of diverting them?
Let's see if we can agree on this:
Do you disagree with some of the points above? Now based on those points I will procede later to propose the changes.-- Asqueladd ( talk) 14:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
-- Asqueladd ( talk) 15:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
-- Asqueladd ( talk) 15:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
I suggest to add the video ( País Valencià, t'estime!) issued by Compromís (one of the parties in the Valencian government) to improve the explanation about the names controversy. It is very important for us to explain the official name Valencian Community is a neologism created in Madrid and not in Valencia. Masclet~enwiki ( talk) 13:32, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise. An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions.
—
The articles of all the autonomous communities of Spain use the same type of map where it distinguishes itself to the region in red, the sea appears in blue and the rest of the country in yellow. Some independentists or nationalistic users insist on adding maps in the articles of Catalonia, Basque Country and Valencian Community as if these regions were countries of the European Union, to scale of the whole continent, of gray and green color, and there do not appear all the autonomous communities (as Canaries). It is absolutely intolerable and inadmissible. These regions must use the same type of map. Satesclop 15:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Answering your inquiries here and in Talk:Basque Country (autonomous community). I don't mean anything about the interpretation of colours. In a not exhaustive wiki examination, I would say the following template is the standard (as in "customary") template in terms of features and colours for subdivisions of sovereign countries in en:wikipedia (with only some of them deviating from the norm in the tones of red), as in:
Up to my knowledge the Spanish autonomous communities fit the pattern above. By the way, you already have that basic scheme for the 17 spanish autonomous communities here: Commons:Category:SVG locator maps of autonomous communities in Spain (location map scheme). I also see there are exceptions that deviate further from the norm in terms of colors and features (but they are not consistent in relation to each other), which are also country-centered. I do not see why the Valencian Community should follow that criteria going "Satesclop" or "JaumeR". For example:
And last, I've only seen the "internationalization style" in the United Kingdom, Belgium, Vojvodina and warzones. .-- Asqueladd ( talk) 19:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for sorting this out. @ JaumeR:
@ Asqueladd: good research, thanks. Peter238 ( talk) 07:43, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
As it's been done with the Basque Country, and since Peter238 supported a different map there than the standard map used for the Spanish "autonomies" he proposed here the other day I change what I said in the section above and now I propose to vote for a map for the Valencian Country — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 15:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
This map will be based on the previous map of the location of the Valencian Country within Europe and Iberia, and will be similar to the one used in England and Wallonia
Proposal to zoom the current bourdeaux map to highlight the Racó d'Ademús exclave. — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 09:35, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
IMO there are bastantes pesados de mucho cuidado, therefore I suggest to protect this article for few months or permanently — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 21:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 10:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
The inverse orographic lift effect is mentioned in the third bullet in the "Climate" section. What is this and what is the source? This effect is not mentioned in orographic lift. SarahNW ( talk) 13:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
I've just posted a new discussion in Talk:Valencia#General confusion in WP between the Valencian Community and the city of Valencia which is connected to this page. Jotamar ( talk) 23:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This ![]() It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | This topic contains controversial issues, some of which have reached a consensus for approach and neutrality, and some of which may be disputed. Before making any potentially controversial changes to the article, please carefully read the discussion-page dialogue to see if the issue has been raised before, and ensure that your edit meets all of Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. Please also ensure you use an accurate and concise edit summary. |
This page has archives. Sections older than 1500 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 15 sections are present. |
This is currently the oldest tagged NPOV dispute. I have read through the article and it seems good to me. From the talk page I see their is a dispute as whether to describe the language as Valencian of Catalan. Also there is disscusion here about moving the page to a new title. Are these the only things under dispute and are either of them settled?-- BirgitteSB 20:25, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
To avoid edit-warring a consensus was reached whereby the official name in Valencian and the unofficial translation in Spanish were to be displayed in the infobox. Given that this was an extremely controversial topic, I do agree that the removal of the Spanish name should be made by consensus.
I will just offer my two cents, and may the parties in dispute find a resolution. If other users are willing to reach a new consensus (no consensual version is permanent), it is my opinion that only the official name should be included, as the organic law of the autonomous community and all laws approved by the Parliament after the new Statute was put into effect, do not translate the name of the community if these are written in Spanish. This applies even to the webpage of the Generalitat [1], [2], [3], [4]. In fact, names of all government bodies in Valencia are not translated -in official documents- and the Generalitat is referred to as such (and not Generalidad), the President is "El President", the seat of government is "El Palau", and the ministries are "El Consell". Funny thing, however, the Valencian term "conselleria" is used for a single ministry, but the plural is hybrid: "consellerias" (where in Valencian it should be "conselleries") and note that the hybrid does not have an accent on the i, which would make "-lle-" the stressed syllable in Spanish, where in fact the stress should be on the -i- in both Valencian and Spanish. [5]
Following the same logic, it is my opinion that the term "País Valencià" should not be included in the infobox. It could be included in the opening paragraph or any other appropriate section, but not being the official name of the community, the infobox is not the place for it. -- dúnadan : let's talk 23:04, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
My point, as always was, is that wikipedia guidelines do not state anywhere that ONLY official names should appear. I will guide you to
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (infoboxes), where you will NOT find any backing for that position; meanwhile, if you look at the
Geographical infoboxes section you may read that: "[...]Alternate or native names can appear[...]".
So basically, this means that erasing the spanish language DOES NOT follow wikipedia guidelines; geografical infoboxes are NOT ONLY for official names and "Alternate or native names can appear".
Even more, erasing the spanish language from the infobox would make these 2 articles the ONLY ones in wikipedia where the name in one of the official languages does not appear.
So, to sum up: -We agree that a consensus to keep the spanish translation was reached in the past. JaumeR did not accept it and/or failed to re-open the case to discuss it. -Wikipedia guideline allows alternate names to appear. -Spanish language being co-official in this region is enough reason to consider it a valid "alternate name".
I ask myself... What bad can the name in spanish do??? Is anybody erasing the catalan translation of the name? Then, what is the problem to add the name in another co-official language of the territory? --Maurice27 About Me, Talk, Vandalize. 17:55, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
Some users have tried to change the map without giving any explanation in this page. There is a completely analogous discussion (so far unresolved) at Talk:Catalonia. Anybody willing to reach a consensus about that is invited to join. In the meantime I'll restore the previous long standing map. -- Carles Noguera ( talk) 11:22, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
I fail to see the reason because of the Catalonia, Valencian Community and Balearic Islands articles need to use the same, different NUTS map while the rest of Spanish regions use the standard, country-centered version, the one which is used by all the country subdivisions articles. Again, I hope we reach a consensus - the sooner the better.
Also, I have to remind you there's no consensus for a map in many of the articles you use that as a reason for undoing changes without further discussion, so I urge you to follow Wikipedia's policies.
As a last note, I think we should discuss the entire matter in the Catalonia article's discussion, so we can avoid an unnecesary string of repeated, space-consuming edits. Icallbs ( talk) 18:58, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
![]() |
An image used in this article,
File:Altea85.jpg, has been nominated for speedy deletion at
Wikimedia Commons for the following reason: Copyright violations
Don't panic; deletions can take a little longer at Commons than they do on Wikipedia. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion (although please review Commons guidelines before doing so). The best way to contest this form of deletion is by posting on the image talk page.
This notification is provided by a Bot -- CommonsNotificationBot ( talk) 19:43, 15 September 2011 (UTC) |
"…the low insulation rate and overall stable weather during the summer": what is an "insulation rate"?
"…the rate of activity reached 56.8% in 2002": what is a "rate of activity"?
Also, the economic statistics nearly all precede the current downturn; newer numbers (and perhaps some information tracing these numbers over time) would be good. - Jmabel | Talk 04:41, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
The section bases all it's numbers on one study performed by a biased organisation (pro-Valencian), in which the respondants rated themselves and weren't tested.
I've lived in two "bilingual" cities, and I know that this sort of survey produces comical results. People ignore the questions and answer as if asked "Do you like your heritage?"
Does anyone have meaningful numbers? For example, how many children are in Valencian-speaking secondard schools compared to the number in Spanish-speaking schools? Gronky ( talk) 22:28, 10 April 2014 (UTC)
There is no "Valencian" language, it's just a variety of Catalan, just like "Texan" is a variety of American English. See Talk:Valencian#Language versus dialect and Valencian language controversy for more. Mathglot ( talk) 06:42, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
I have been working to expand this page for a few weeks now and I am appalled that the reference to "Valencian Country" has been deleted. There is a controversy about the name of the autonomous community, with the Catalan wikipedia using País Valencià (Valencian Country) and the Spanish one using Comunidad Valenciana (Valencian Community). I understand that the article is called "Valencian Community" because that is the official institutional name, but the alternative denomination is also officially recognized and has widespread usage, especially in the Valencian language. "Valencian Country" must, at least, be mentioned in the first sentence of the article, because many readers will search for "Valencian Country" and omitting this important denomination can cause confusion. And it is also important that edition in this respect is restricted once the community has achieved a consensus, otherwise there will be changes to the introduction every other week.
Just as a reminder, "Valencian Country" is the name used by the two psrties forming the coalition government at the moment in the Generalitat, it is the standard name in Catalan language, and it is used by academic institutions like the University of Valencia, the main trade unions and hundreds of civil associations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Quico mm ( talk • contribs) 16:57, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Could you adress the problems instead of diverting them?
Let's see if we can agree on this:
Do you disagree with some of the points above? Now based on those points I will procede later to propose the changes.-- Asqueladd ( talk) 14:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
-- Asqueladd ( talk) 15:15, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
-- Asqueladd ( talk) 15:36, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
I suggest to add the video ( País Valencià, t'estime!) issued by Compromís (one of the parties in the Valencian government) to improve the explanation about the names controversy. It is very important for us to explain the official name Valencian Community is a neologism created in Madrid and not in Valencia. Masclet~enwiki ( talk) 13:32, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
Advocacy, propaganda, or recruitment of any kind: commercial, political, scientific, religious, national, sports-related, or otherwise. An article can report objectively about such things, as long as an attempt is made to describe the topic from a neutral point of view. You might wish to start a blog or visit a forum if you want to convince people of the merits of your opinions.
—
The articles of all the autonomous communities of Spain use the same type of map where it distinguishes itself to the region in red, the sea appears in blue and the rest of the country in yellow. Some independentists or nationalistic users insist on adding maps in the articles of Catalonia, Basque Country and Valencian Community as if these regions were countries of the European Union, to scale of the whole continent, of gray and green color, and there do not appear all the autonomous communities (as Canaries). It is absolutely intolerable and inadmissible. These regions must use the same type of map. Satesclop 15:44, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Answering your inquiries here and in Talk:Basque Country (autonomous community). I don't mean anything about the interpretation of colours. In a not exhaustive wiki examination, I would say the following template is the standard (as in "customary") template in terms of features and colours for subdivisions of sovereign countries in en:wikipedia (with only some of them deviating from the norm in the tones of red), as in:
Up to my knowledge the Spanish autonomous communities fit the pattern above. By the way, you already have that basic scheme for the 17 spanish autonomous communities here: Commons:Category:SVG locator maps of autonomous communities in Spain (location map scheme). I also see there are exceptions that deviate further from the norm in terms of colors and features (but they are not consistent in relation to each other), which are also country-centered. I do not see why the Valencian Community should follow that criteria going "Satesclop" or "JaumeR". For example:
And last, I've only seen the "internationalization style" in the United Kingdom, Belgium, Vojvodina and warzones. .-- Asqueladd ( talk) 19:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for sorting this out. @ JaumeR:
@ Asqueladd: good research, thanks. Peter238 ( talk) 07:43, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
As it's been done with the Basque Country, and since Peter238 supported a different map there than the standard map used for the Spanish "autonomies" he proposed here the other day I change what I said in the section above and now I propose to vote for a map for the Valencian Country — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 15:27, 10 February 2016 (UTC)
This map will be based on the previous map of the location of the Valencian Country within Europe and Iberia, and will be similar to the one used in England and Wallonia
Proposal to zoom the current bourdeaux map to highlight the Racó d'Ademús exclave. — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 09:35, 8 February 2016 (UTC)
IMO there are bastantes pesados de mucho cuidado, therefore I suggest to protect this article for few months or permanently — Jɑuмe ( dis-me) 21:49, 13 February 2016 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 10:22, 25 March 2022 (UTC)
The inverse orographic lift effect is mentioned in the third bullet in the "Climate" section. What is this and what is the source? This effect is not mentioned in orographic lift. SarahNW ( talk) 13:49, 4 April 2024 (UTC)
I've just posted a new discussion in Talk:Valencia#General confusion in WP between the Valencian Community and the city of Valencia which is connected to this page. Jotamar ( talk) 23:00, 20 May 2024 (UTC)