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Note on assessment: Article is informative, but lacks any inline references. Gouranga(UK) ( talk) 16:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The illustration of Indra does not show them holding a vajra in any of the forms later described, so is confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.65.136 ( talk) 07:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
http://www.windhorse.co.uk/acatalog/RITUAL_OBJECTS.html Ritual Objects]
There are still some informations to be inserted into the article.
Viswarupa, [6], [7], [8]. Vishwarupa,
Shouldn't there be more on the ghanta (bell) and it's use with the dorje? 72.68.162.155 ( talk) 09:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC) R.E.D.
There is some dispute as to the removal of some content from this article. The IP who wants to remove it has commented on my talk page, but the discussion really needs to be conducted here, so here is a copy of that comment with my reply...
Whats to discuss, WP:V says provide RS, preferably inline, or material may be removed ? Any editor who feesl strongly about the article, and wants to save it, can provide RS. 188.116.2.127 ( talk)
Somendas is welcome to pursue his badass "RS or blank it" approach, but only using a single logged-in account. To prevent further anonymous prancing around, I have semiprotected the article. This is a case for {{ refimprove}}. Literature on Buddhist symbolology is cited, but no page numbers or inline notes are given. It is undisputed that the vajra is an important concept in Buddhism, and blanking all references to Buddhism (while leaving the equally unreferenced material on Hinduism alone) can only be interpreted as motivated by some ideological agenda. The content is eminently verifiable, it just isn't served on a platter with footnotes and page numbers. So please go and verify (or falsify) it, start looking at google books, jstor et al. for references, don't blank content. -- dab (𒁳) 19:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Not a single word is mentioned here of the vajra's origin as a weapon. Maybe most editors here only know of the vajra through Buddhism but it was historically used as a weapon in Asian martial arts. Morinae ( talk) 11:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Diamond can cut diamond, but vajra cannot cut itself. Diamond can be destroyed by nuclear bomb, but vajra can not. 71.251.34.184 16:40, 12 June 2012 (UTC) Dalauhu ( talk) 16:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
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Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:39, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
So the etymology section says that the PIE origin for the word vajra, *weg, is related to Proto-"Finno-Uralic" (not Finno-Ugric?), which is impossible because these are two unrelated primary language families. The sources were unclear as to this explanation. Is this saying that the Indo-Aryans got the word from Finno-Ugric or vice versa? I think the section might need to be rewritten to be more clear. ForestAngel ( talk) 00:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Another loanword for a metal object is Proto-West-Uralic *vaśara, “hammer, ax,” from Proto-Indo-Aryan *vaj’ra-, “weapon of the war-god”; it probably originally denoted the ax or mace of the Sejma-Turbino warriors, but later acquired the meaning “hammer” from the Nordic war-god Thor.He does not use the term "Finno-Uralic". It may be that "Proto-Finno-Uralic" is a synonym for "Proto-West-Uralic" used in the other two sources.
Among the other early Proto-Indo-Aryan loanwords in Finno-Ugric is *ora ‘awl’ < Proto-Aryan *ārā = Sanskrit ārā- ‘awl’ (cf. Koivulehto 1987: 206f), which is likewise not found in the Iranian branch at all. Also Proto-Finno-Ugric *vaśara ‘hammer, axe’ (cf. Joki 1973: 339) on account of its palatalized sibilant is from Proto-Aryan or Proto-Indo-Aryan rather than Proto-Iranian, where depalatalization took place (cf. Mayrhofer 1989: 4, 6), cf. Sanskrit vajra- ‘thunder-bolt, weapon of Indra the god of thunder and war’ versus Avestan vazra- ‘mace, the weapon of the god Mithra’, possibly from the Proto-Indo-European *weg’- ‘to be(come) powerful’.Here "Proto-Finno-Ugric" is used instead of "Proto-West-Uralic".
Av vazra- 'mace, cudgel' (when Finnish vasara 'hammer'), OInd vajra- 'thunderbolt, cudgel' (when TochAB wasir 'thunderbold').Presumeably "Av" is "Avestan", which is dubious. Regardless, this also implies that it's a loanword. Given this is only a passing mention and better sources exist, I'd recommend just cutting this ref entirely; it's not needed and is misleading in suggesting that the term was loaned from Avestan rather than from Proto-Indo-Aryan. – Scyrme ( talk) 19:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Vajra article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Note on assessment: Article is informative, but lacks any inline references. Gouranga(UK) ( talk) 16:13, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
The illustration of Indra does not show them holding a vajra in any of the forms later described, so is confusing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.147.65.136 ( talk) 07:52, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
http://www.windhorse.co.uk/acatalog/RITUAL_OBJECTS.html Ritual Objects]
There are still some informations to be inserted into the article.
Viswarupa, [6], [7], [8]. Vishwarupa,
Shouldn't there be more on the ghanta (bell) and it's use with the dorje? 72.68.162.155 ( talk) 09:07, 6 February 2010 (UTC) R.E.D.
There is some dispute as to the removal of some content from this article. The IP who wants to remove it has commented on my talk page, but the discussion really needs to be conducted here, so here is a copy of that comment with my reply...
Whats to discuss, WP:V says provide RS, preferably inline, or material may be removed ? Any editor who feesl strongly about the article, and wants to save it, can provide RS. 188.116.2.127 ( talk)
Somendas is welcome to pursue his badass "RS or blank it" approach, but only using a single logged-in account. To prevent further anonymous prancing around, I have semiprotected the article. This is a case for {{ refimprove}}. Literature on Buddhist symbolology is cited, but no page numbers or inline notes are given. It is undisputed that the vajra is an important concept in Buddhism, and blanking all references to Buddhism (while leaving the equally unreferenced material on Hinduism alone) can only be interpreted as motivated by some ideological agenda. The content is eminently verifiable, it just isn't served on a platter with footnotes and page numbers. So please go and verify (or falsify) it, start looking at google books, jstor et al. for references, don't blank content. -- dab (𒁳) 19:59, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Not a single word is mentioned here of the vajra's origin as a weapon. Maybe most editors here only know of the vajra through Buddhism but it was historically used as a weapon in Asian martial arts. Morinae ( talk) 11:35, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Diamond can cut diamond, but vajra cannot cut itself. Diamond can be destroyed by nuclear bomb, but vajra can not. 71.251.34.184 16:40, 12 June 2012 (UTC) Dalauhu ( talk) 16:44, 12 June 2012 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Vajra. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
This message was posted before February 2018.
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source check}}
(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers. — cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 02:39, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
So the etymology section says that the PIE origin for the word vajra, *weg, is related to Proto-"Finno-Uralic" (not Finno-Ugric?), which is impossible because these are two unrelated primary language families. The sources were unclear as to this explanation. Is this saying that the Indo-Aryans got the word from Finno-Ugric or vice versa? I think the section might need to be rewritten to be more clear. ForestAngel ( talk) 00:49, 23 November 2022 (UTC)
Another loanword for a metal object is Proto-West-Uralic *vaśara, “hammer, ax,” from Proto-Indo-Aryan *vaj’ra-, “weapon of the war-god”; it probably originally denoted the ax or mace of the Sejma-Turbino warriors, but later acquired the meaning “hammer” from the Nordic war-god Thor.He does not use the term "Finno-Uralic". It may be that "Proto-Finno-Uralic" is a synonym for "Proto-West-Uralic" used in the other two sources.
Among the other early Proto-Indo-Aryan loanwords in Finno-Ugric is *ora ‘awl’ < Proto-Aryan *ārā = Sanskrit ārā- ‘awl’ (cf. Koivulehto 1987: 206f), which is likewise not found in the Iranian branch at all. Also Proto-Finno-Ugric *vaśara ‘hammer, axe’ (cf. Joki 1973: 339) on account of its palatalized sibilant is from Proto-Aryan or Proto-Indo-Aryan rather than Proto-Iranian, where depalatalization took place (cf. Mayrhofer 1989: 4, 6), cf. Sanskrit vajra- ‘thunder-bolt, weapon of Indra the god of thunder and war’ versus Avestan vazra- ‘mace, the weapon of the god Mithra’, possibly from the Proto-Indo-European *weg’- ‘to be(come) powerful’.Here "Proto-Finno-Ugric" is used instead of "Proto-West-Uralic".
Av vazra- 'mace, cudgel' (when Finnish vasara 'hammer'), OInd vajra- 'thunderbolt, cudgel' (when TochAB wasir 'thunderbold').Presumeably "Av" is "Avestan", which is dubious. Regardless, this also implies that it's a loanword. Given this is only a passing mention and better sources exist, I'd recommend just cutting this ref entirely; it's not needed and is misleading in suggesting that the term was loaned from Avestan rather than from Proto-Indo-Aryan. – Scyrme ( talk) 19:23, 18 January 2023 (UTC)