![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Started this interesting not much discussed subject. BalanceΩrestored Talk 07:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
DO you mean even this manuscript is alleged? BalanceΩrestored Talk 09:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
can you read the original 1973 publication please? Josyer clearly states the text was dictated from "memory" by some Pandit in 1923. -- dab (𒁳) 09:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The first Unmanned plane of the modern world flew in India. BalanceΩrestored Talk 09:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
that's completely unrelated. --
dab
(𒁳)
09:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I see. Stephen Knapp has: [2]
The controversial text known as Vimaanika Shastra, said to be by Maharshi Bharadwaja, also describes in detail the construction of what is called the mercury vortex engine. This is no doubt of the same nature as the Vedic Ion engine that is propelled by the use of mercury. Such an engine was built by Shivkar Bapuji Talpade, based on descriptions in the Rig-veda, which he demonstrated in Mumbai (Bombay), India in 1895. ... Additional information on the mercury engines used in the vimanas can be found in the ancient Vedic text called the Samarangana Sutradhara. This text also devotes 230 verses to the use of these machines in peace and war. We will not provide the whole description of the mercury vortex engine here, but we will include a short part of William Clendenon's translation of the Samarangana Sutradhara from his 1990 book, Mercury, UFO Messenger of the Gods:
( mercury vortex engine?) this is all related to the "Vedic cargo cult science" that arose with Swami Dayananda/ Theosophical Society of the Arya Samaj from the 1870s. It is still notable today because of the role it plays in Hindu nationalist pseudoscience (Kak, Frawley, Knapp & friends). I do think we'll need a Category:Vedic pseudoscience soon. dab (𒁳) 10:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
sorry, I thought this was about the actual first unmanned flight in India. It turns out this is a 1985 allegation of an 1895 flight with an ion thruster built by some guy based on "descriptions found in the Rigveda". BalanceRestored, please tell me you are not really a physics student. Do you see a pattern? Brothers Wright: 1901. Vaimanika Shastra discovered: 1918. First ion thrusters developed: 1970s. "Rigvedic ion thruster" revealed: 1985. I'm expecting the relevation of a "Rigvedic cellphone" daily. -- dab (𒁳) 10:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
BR, I hope you realize that David Hatcher Childress, whom you are quoting, is a well-known purveyor of fantastical junk and pseudoscience and all his books are self-published by the Adventures Unlimited Press. As such he is eminently quotable as a source to establish that a pseudoscientific belief (such as the mercury vortex engine) is held, but has zero value as a scholarly source. Abecedare 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
"Childress is often seen on various television programs on Fox Network ( Sightings and Encounters), Discovery Channel, A&E, The History Channel, and the like, as an expert consultant on subjects such as the Bermuda Triangle, Atlantis, and UFOs". Source David_Hatcher_Childress.
The Vymanika Shastra was first committed to writing between 1918 and 1923, and nobody is claiming that it came from some mysterious antique manuscript. The fact is, there are no manuscripts of this text prior to 1918, and nobody is claiming that there are. So on one level, this is not a hoax. You just have to buy into the assumption that 'channeling' works. ... there is no exposition of the theory of aviation (let alone antigravity). In plain terms, the VS never directly explains how vimanas get up in the air. The text is top-heavy with long lists of often bizarre ingredients used to construct various subsystems. ... There is nothing here which Jules Verne couldn't have dreamed up, no mention of exotic elements or advanced construction techniques. The 1923 technical illustration based on the text ... are absurdly un-aerodynamic. They look like brutalist wedding cakes, with minarets, huge ornithopter wings and dinky propellers. In other words, they look like typical early 20th century fantasy flying machines with an Indian twist.?? BalanceΩrestored Talk 10:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I see the following at http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vimanas.htm "A project study conducted by wg. Cdr. M.P.Rao, etc. of Aeronautical Society of India on behalf of Aerospace Information Panel of Aeronautics Research and Development Board, B-Wing, Sena Bhavan, New Delhi –110011, India. Copyright: AR&DB, New Delhi, India. Comments to Dr.T.N.Prakash, Coordinator, AIP of AR&DB"
There seem to be some reliable sources on the subject of this article. For example, Mukunda, H.S. (1974).
"A critical study of the work "Vyamanika Shastra"" (PDF). Scientific Opinion: 5–12. {{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) I couldn't access the PDF, but Google has
a cached version, which is mostly readable. Here is the abstract:
A study of the work “Vymanika Shastra” is presented. First, the historical aspects and authenticity of the work are discussed. Subsequently, the work is critically reviewed in respect of its technical content. It appears that his work cannot be dated earlier than 1904 and contains details which, on the basis of our present knowledge, force
us to conclude the non feasibility of heavier‐than craft of earlier times. Some peripheral
questions concerning dimensions have also been touched upon.
Will read the paper and add content to the wikipedia article in the next couple of days. Others are welcome to beat me to it :-) Abecedare 07:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
And here is a quote from the concluding section:
Any reader by now would have concluded the obvious – that the planes described above are the best poor concoctions, rather than expressions of something real.
None of the planes has properties or capabilities of being flown; the geometries are unimaginably horrendous from the point of view of flying; and the principles of propulsion make then resist rather than assist flying.
The text and the drawings do not correlate with each other even thematically. The drawings definitely point to a knowledge of modern machinery. This can be explained on the basis of the fact that Shri Ellappa who made the drawings was in a local engineering college and was thus familiar with names and details of some machinery. Of course the text retains a structure in language and content from which its ‘recent nature’ cannot be asserted. We must hasten to point out that this does not imply an oriental nature of the text at all. All that may be said is that thematically the drawings ought to be ruled out of discussion. And the text, as it stands, is incomplete and ambiguous by itself and incorrectat many places.
A more thorough debunking would be hard to imagine. Abecedare 07:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
a great find, Abecedare (Mukunda et al.). Especially the link to Talpade, who apparently is a "Vedic ufologist" rather than an aviation pioneer after all (the ToI article sounded as if his model had really flown...) dab (𒁳) 11:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Source: [3] Just quoting the summarized findings from a report of Birla Science Centre [4], Hyderabad, relating to researches on three types of alloys developed by them as described in the textual content of this work, they find:
“As these materials were found to be novel in their compositions and preparations patents have been asked for them. The experimental results in BISR laboratory established the originality and textual description of the materials in “Vimana Shastra”. Therefore there is a strong possibility that the large number of descriptions of other new materials described may also yield good experimental results in the laboratory.”
There are some successful experiments and have been Patented too. Does not look that awfully bad too. Surely there's some mischief with in Joyers book. The book that's presented is not very honestly quoting facts. For me the author is surely biased, sorry to be frank. BalanceΩrestored Talk 12:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It's been quite a few months since academic criticisms of this idea were reported, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of them in the article. Shouldn't this be added? Martian bob ( talk) 04:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
It has been "a few months since academic criticisms of this idea were reported"? What are you even talking about? Nobody apart from hopeless kooks has ever dreamed of taking this at face value, let alone bothered to publish "criticism". You might as well clamour for a "criticism" section at Unicorn. This is an interesting case of " cargo cult science". Colonel C. W. Bowles brought early aircraft to India as early as 1910. This Shastri must have heard about them or perhaps even saw one of them. This is what his unconscious made of them. This article isn't lacking a section which carefully points out that there were not, in fact, Vedic UFOs. It lacks a section exploring the nature of "automatic writing" and the like, viz. a psychological analysis of the text. -- dab (𒁳) 08:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I apologize if this is considered spam; maybe it can be useful to you guys as an example of the vaimanika in popular culture.
I'm trying to verify the spelling, in Sanskrit of the term "Rowdree Darpana" that appears on p23 of the Shastra (in the Josyer translation). It is claimed as meaning "Terrifying Mirror". This term is also used as a flamethrower weapon in Digimon for a character based on Vritra.
The scans of the Sanskrit portions on the Sacred Text Archive only go up to p 10, so I can't verify it using that. However, based on the claimed meaning and the pronunciation, I believe that the Sanskrit should be रुद्रियदर्पण (rudriya darpaNa, terrifying mirror). I have absolutely no experience with Sanskrit, so I can't be sure if the conjugation is correct.
Can someone who has a copy of the book check which word is used, or failing that, use experience in Sanskrit to determine the proper conjugation of the word? If you can help me with this, please leave a message at this page. Thanks! 70.34.147.3 ( talk) 04:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
The structure and content section includes criticism as well. Why should we not put it in different section -- Haccom ✉ Talk to me 15:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Apparently, "Mercury vortex engine" redirects to this article, but this article currently doesn't mention mercury vortex engines anywhere (Vaimānika Shāstra does mention them or something like them, from what I've heard, but they're not mentioned in the article), maybe it would make sense either to have a "Mercury vortex engine" article or to put something about that in this one.
It sounds like, there's never been any verified demonstration that there's any such thing, but it gets talked about a lot in fringe circles and probably quite a few people come here looking for info about whether there is such a thing or not, and currently they'll get directed bewilderingly to this article that appears to have nothing to do with it.
Possibly, failing that, it could redirect to Die Glocke (conspiracy theory) instead, since that does have a lot about something roughly adjacent to mercury vortex engines, or to Vimana - that might make more sense than Vaimānika Shāstra, since it turns out that there's at least one other, much older, account of vimanas being propelled by mercury, which may have inspired Vaimānika Shāstra, and maybe even the Die Glocke story too, who knows. Wombat140 ( talk) 23:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
The second and fifth paragraphs are almost identical. 2603:6013:9B00:9B:5943:8CFC:EB06:7BBC ( talk) 21:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
pageviews.wmcloud.org |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Started this interesting not much discussed subject. BalanceΩrestored Talk 07:47, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
DO you mean even this manuscript is alleged? BalanceΩrestored Talk 09:15, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
can you read the original 1973 publication please? Josyer clearly states the text was dictated from "memory" by some Pandit in 1923. -- dab (𒁳) 09:44, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
The first Unmanned plane of the modern world flew in India. BalanceΩrestored Talk 09:33, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
that's completely unrelated. --
dab
(𒁳)
09:43, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
I see. Stephen Knapp has: [2]
The controversial text known as Vimaanika Shastra, said to be by Maharshi Bharadwaja, also describes in detail the construction of what is called the mercury vortex engine. This is no doubt of the same nature as the Vedic Ion engine that is propelled by the use of mercury. Such an engine was built by Shivkar Bapuji Talpade, based on descriptions in the Rig-veda, which he demonstrated in Mumbai (Bombay), India in 1895. ... Additional information on the mercury engines used in the vimanas can be found in the ancient Vedic text called the Samarangana Sutradhara. This text also devotes 230 verses to the use of these machines in peace and war. We will not provide the whole description of the mercury vortex engine here, but we will include a short part of William Clendenon's translation of the Samarangana Sutradhara from his 1990 book, Mercury, UFO Messenger of the Gods:
( mercury vortex engine?) this is all related to the "Vedic cargo cult science" that arose with Swami Dayananda/ Theosophical Society of the Arya Samaj from the 1870s. It is still notable today because of the role it plays in Hindu nationalist pseudoscience (Kak, Frawley, Knapp & friends). I do think we'll need a Category:Vedic pseudoscience soon. dab (𒁳) 10:01, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
sorry, I thought this was about the actual first unmanned flight in India. It turns out this is a 1985 allegation of an 1895 flight with an ion thruster built by some guy based on "descriptions found in the Rigveda". BalanceRestored, please tell me you are not really a physics student. Do you see a pattern? Brothers Wright: 1901. Vaimanika Shastra discovered: 1918. First ion thrusters developed: 1970s. "Rigvedic ion thruster" revealed: 1985. I'm expecting the relevation of a "Rigvedic cellphone" daily. -- dab (𒁳) 10:08, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
BR, I hope you realize that David Hatcher Childress, whom you are quoting, is a well-known purveyor of fantastical junk and pseudoscience and all his books are self-published by the Adventures Unlimited Press. As such he is eminently quotable as a source to establish that a pseudoscientific belief (such as the mercury vortex engine) is held, but has zero value as a scholarly source. Abecedare 11:36, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
"Childress is often seen on various television programs on Fox Network ( Sightings and Encounters), Discovery Channel, A&E, The History Channel, and the like, as an expert consultant on subjects such as the Bermuda Triangle, Atlantis, and UFOs". Source David_Hatcher_Childress.
The Vymanika Shastra was first committed to writing between 1918 and 1923, and nobody is claiming that it came from some mysterious antique manuscript. The fact is, there are no manuscripts of this text prior to 1918, and nobody is claiming that there are. So on one level, this is not a hoax. You just have to buy into the assumption that 'channeling' works. ... there is no exposition of the theory of aviation (let alone antigravity). In plain terms, the VS never directly explains how vimanas get up in the air. The text is top-heavy with long lists of often bizarre ingredients used to construct various subsystems. ... There is nothing here which Jules Verne couldn't have dreamed up, no mention of exotic elements or advanced construction techniques. The 1923 technical illustration based on the text ... are absurdly un-aerodynamic. They look like brutalist wedding cakes, with minarets, huge ornithopter wings and dinky propellers. In other words, they look like typical early 20th century fantasy flying machines with an Indian twist.?? BalanceΩrestored Talk 10:44, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
I see the following at http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/vimanas/vimanas.htm "A project study conducted by wg. Cdr. M.P.Rao, etc. of Aeronautical Society of India on behalf of Aerospace Information Panel of Aeronautics Research and Development Board, B-Wing, Sena Bhavan, New Delhi –110011, India. Copyright: AR&DB, New Delhi, India. Comments to Dr.T.N.Prakash, Coordinator, AIP of AR&DB"
There seem to be some reliable sources on the subject of this article. For example, Mukunda, H.S. (1974).
"A critical study of the work "Vyamanika Shastra"" (PDF). Scientific Opinion: 5–12. {{
cite journal}}
: Unknown parameter |coauthors=
ignored (|author=
suggested) (
help) I couldn't access the PDF, but Google has
a cached version, which is mostly readable. Here is the abstract:
A study of the work “Vymanika Shastra” is presented. First, the historical aspects and authenticity of the work are discussed. Subsequently, the work is critically reviewed in respect of its technical content. It appears that his work cannot be dated earlier than 1904 and contains details which, on the basis of our present knowledge, force
us to conclude the non feasibility of heavier‐than craft of earlier times. Some peripheral
questions concerning dimensions have also been touched upon.
Will read the paper and add content to the wikipedia article in the next couple of days. Others are welcome to beat me to it :-) Abecedare 07:21, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
And here is a quote from the concluding section:
Any reader by now would have concluded the obvious – that the planes described above are the best poor concoctions, rather than expressions of something real.
None of the planes has properties or capabilities of being flown; the geometries are unimaginably horrendous from the point of view of flying; and the principles of propulsion make then resist rather than assist flying.
The text and the drawings do not correlate with each other even thematically. The drawings definitely point to a knowledge of modern machinery. This can be explained on the basis of the fact that Shri Ellappa who made the drawings was in a local engineering college and was thus familiar with names and details of some machinery. Of course the text retains a structure in language and content from which its ‘recent nature’ cannot be asserted. We must hasten to point out that this does not imply an oriental nature of the text at all. All that may be said is that thematically the drawings ought to be ruled out of discussion. And the text, as it stands, is incomplete and ambiguous by itself and incorrectat many places.
A more thorough debunking would be hard to imagine. Abecedare 07:26, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
a great find, Abecedare (Mukunda et al.). Especially the link to Talpade, who apparently is a "Vedic ufologist" rather than an aviation pioneer after all (the ToI article sounded as if his model had really flown...) dab (𒁳) 11:04, 3 September 2007 (UTC)
Source: [3] Just quoting the summarized findings from a report of Birla Science Centre [4], Hyderabad, relating to researches on three types of alloys developed by them as described in the textual content of this work, they find:
“As these materials were found to be novel in their compositions and preparations patents have been asked for them. The experimental results in BISR laboratory established the originality and textual description of the materials in “Vimana Shastra”. Therefore there is a strong possibility that the large number of descriptions of other new materials described may also yield good experimental results in the laboratory.”
There are some successful experiments and have been Patented too. Does not look that awfully bad too. Surely there's some mischief with in Joyers book. The book that's presented is not very honestly quoting facts. For me the author is surely biased, sorry to be frank. BalanceΩrestored Talk 12:54, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
It's been quite a few months since academic criticisms of this idea were reported, but there doesn't seem to be any mention of them in the article. Shouldn't this be added? Martian bob ( talk) 04:55, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
It has been "a few months since academic criticisms of this idea were reported"? What are you even talking about? Nobody apart from hopeless kooks has ever dreamed of taking this at face value, let alone bothered to publish "criticism". You might as well clamour for a "criticism" section at Unicorn. This is an interesting case of " cargo cult science". Colonel C. W. Bowles brought early aircraft to India as early as 1910. This Shastri must have heard about them or perhaps even saw one of them. This is what his unconscious made of them. This article isn't lacking a section which carefully points out that there were not, in fact, Vedic UFOs. It lacks a section exploring the nature of "automatic writing" and the like, viz. a psychological analysis of the text. -- dab (𒁳) 08:35, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
I apologize if this is considered spam; maybe it can be useful to you guys as an example of the vaimanika in popular culture.
I'm trying to verify the spelling, in Sanskrit of the term "Rowdree Darpana" that appears on p23 of the Shastra (in the Josyer translation). It is claimed as meaning "Terrifying Mirror". This term is also used as a flamethrower weapon in Digimon for a character based on Vritra.
The scans of the Sanskrit portions on the Sacred Text Archive only go up to p 10, so I can't verify it using that. However, based on the claimed meaning and the pronunciation, I believe that the Sanskrit should be रुद्रियदर्पण (rudriya darpaNa, terrifying mirror). I have absolutely no experience with Sanskrit, so I can't be sure if the conjugation is correct.
Can someone who has a copy of the book check which word is used, or failing that, use experience in Sanskrit to determine the proper conjugation of the word? If you can help me with this, please leave a message at this page. Thanks! 70.34.147.3 ( talk) 04:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
The structure and content section includes criticism as well. Why should we not put it in different section -- Haccom ✉ Talk to me 15:28, 30 March 2015 (UTC)
Apparently, "Mercury vortex engine" redirects to this article, but this article currently doesn't mention mercury vortex engines anywhere (Vaimānika Shāstra does mention them or something like them, from what I've heard, but they're not mentioned in the article), maybe it would make sense either to have a "Mercury vortex engine" article or to put something about that in this one.
It sounds like, there's never been any verified demonstration that there's any such thing, but it gets talked about a lot in fringe circles and probably quite a few people come here looking for info about whether there is such a thing or not, and currently they'll get directed bewilderingly to this article that appears to have nothing to do with it.
Possibly, failing that, it could redirect to Die Glocke (conspiracy theory) instead, since that does have a lot about something roughly adjacent to mercury vortex engines, or to Vimana - that might make more sense than Vaimānika Shāstra, since it turns out that there's at least one other, much older, account of vimanas being propelled by mercury, which may have inspired Vaimānika Shāstra, and maybe even the Die Glocke story too, who knows. Wombat140 ( talk) 23:15, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
The second and fifth paragraphs are almost identical. 2603:6013:9B00:9B:5943:8CFC:EB06:7BBC ( talk) 21:49, 30 March 2024 (UTC)