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I have taken out irrelevant information (i.e. import duties into Jersey - this should be dealt with in a different article as this article is about VAT free imports from the Channel Islands [Exports] not imports into The Channel Islands) and I have put in current verifiable and relevant information. If any justification or evidence is required please advise and I will supply it. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 10:20, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Man vyi thanks for your changes to layout. Very good. I will add the missing bits of information shortly. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 11:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
OK . This is generally known as that VAT Loophole but that's not an accurate description. My only concern is fringe information added to this making it too complex to understand. I think its fair to say that sales volume of consumer trade from CI to UK dwarfs UK to CI and I can't imagine companies abusing a relief coming into in CI on the same scale as sales wouldn't be big enough.Don't you think ? Bigbrothersback ( talk) 15:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
having thought about it I don't think that changing title of this piece would be helpful. Whilst I don't think we should be judgemental the fact remains that Jersey and Guernsey Governments have fought hard to keep this trade going including the elements that could be abusive. Playing that down in the title and putting this trade on equal footing with goods coming the other way would be biased in my view. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 15:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Justifications for page move and copyedit:
Hopefully the rewrite presents a more balanced view. Man vyi 16:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This is nonsensical. Point 1: Loophole does not imply any sort of value judgement (it simply indicates a point where the wording of the law does not cover all circumstances), and the argument about where the loophole is is mere sophistry. Point 2: The VAT regime covers 27 nations, with an area of well over a million square miles and 500 million citizens. The Channel Islands have a combined area of about 70 square miles and a population of 155,000. Quite how anyone could construe the CI situation as the norm is entirely unclear. 87.244.104.187 ( talk) 17:58, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
NPOV removed as this article now contains facts that can all be verified. I agree with above comment. This is not a loophole which would mean there was an unforseen effect of the drafting of LVCR legislation. LVCR is legitimate and the legislation is very clear particularly relating to mail order. The bulk of the trade is an abuse of LVCR (see article) The other points here are nonsensical statements. The article now indicates concrete reasons why UK companies are complaining. If anyone wishes to question anything on the page please raise it in talk and I will address it. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 09:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
I just removed all of the companies. The thing that drew my attention was the lead phrase, which talked about how this was an incomplete list of companies "profiting" from the VAT exemption. But we can't add those companies without reliable sources connecting them to the VAT-free issue. To just say "Country X does business in the Channel Islands" automatically means that they are "profiting" from the exemption is a violation of WP:SYNTH. Only those companies which have been discussed in reliable sources belong here. Furthermore, I don't even think there should be a list, anyway--lists like this invite spamming, as was the case with a number of the stores on the list. If any companies have been mentioned in reliable sources, include that info in prose in the text. Qwyrxian ( talk) 10:37, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
OK. Main retailers of interest now referenced in the text Bigbrothersback ( talk) 20:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I was reading through the Controversy section, and noticed some very clear WP:OR--specifically, WP:SYNTH. As far as I can tell, the Halifax judgment is not related to the Channel Islands. If it is, someone please point me to sources with more information on the case, and I'll gladly add them and revise my edits. But if I am correct, and the Halifax case is separate, then it is very much original research to draw the conclusion that the Halifax case necessarily applies to what is happening in the Channel Islands. It may be true, but it's Original Research until a reliable source asserts that it is applicable. I almost stripped out the Halifax judgment in general, because just putting it into this article could be described as synthesis, but I realized that we could keep it, by using it as the base definition of VAT abuse, and then later showing that others have asserted that what is happening with the CI companies is VAT abuse.
Second, you'll see that I added a lot of "citation needed" tags. Most of this section is uncited. I don't know who added it originally, and where he/she got the info from, but this section desperately needs sources. If sources can't be found in short order (maybe a week or so), I'm going to remove the information, because we must verify all information in our articles with reliable sources. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Well we are entering the realm of legal argument and as yet Halifax has not been applied to the CI LVCR issue. I have very reliable sources but I'm not going to quote them here. I can tell you that it has already been applied to very similar arrangements to LVCR. Halifax relates to LVCR in the case of companies in the Channel Islands that have set up on the Islands with the sole purpose of avoiding VAT . I would agree that Halifax does not apply to every company on the CI but if you are exporting goods to the Islands from the UK with the intention of reimporting them by mail to UK customers that is clearly an abuse as it fulfils no other commercial purpose than to take advantage of a tax relief. Under Halifax that is abusive. Its not difficult to spot the companies that are on the Islands transshipping products to a UK customer base. What other reason would they be there ? One company has even publicly stated its there to take advantage of LVCR whilst the Jersey Authorities also admit that the 'fulfilment' industry is on the Islands due to LVCR. I do however agree its pointless discussing it here and until action is taken there is no actual source. However if action is taken you can delete most of the article. So lets wait and see... Bigbrothersback ( talk) 13:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I should clarify- Halifax could potentially apply if a retailer keeps stock in the UK and then roundtrips it through the Channel Islands (although the fact Government is aware of and has chosen not to close the "loophole" in question would make this approach somewhat challenging for HMRC). There would however be no grounds for applying Halifax to LVCR per se, i.e. where goods arrive in the Channel Islands directly and are then imported into the UK. So perhaps we are in fact agreeing. LeContexte ( talk) 07:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
OK I have added in the correct relevance of Halifax with references to sources Bigbrothersback ( talk) 20:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I was trying to make it so that we don't have a separate notes and references section, but I realized that to do that we have to pick only one way of doing it--either inline citations or List-defined references. For those unfamiliar with the two methods, the first puts the citation details in the body of the text, as with the items currently listed in "Notes". LDR only leaves <ref name = "name"/> in the text, and puts the references (links, info) in the reference list itself. There are pros and cons to each, but WP:CITE does say that we need to be consistent. If we can't agree, we have to use the inline citations, as that is how the article originally started. Based on some arguments on other pages (see Talk:Halle Berry, if you're interested), I've recently become convinced that LDR will make editing easier, overall, but others disagree. Is there a consensus here to do it one way or the other? Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I prefer LDR. I will go through this article and bring it all in line shortly. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 09:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I have made some revisions and changes to entire article. I am not a full time Wikipedia editor so please advise if anything can be done better. Some of the requested citations are impossible. I was involved in the Fopp/Musc Zone Judicial Review attempt which never made it to the internet but it did take place. Thanks! Bigbrothersback ( talk) 22:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Bigbrothersback has recently added a lot of information to this article, and much of it is unreferenced. Some of it may be OR. A lot of it is not in an appropriate style--we should never have phrases like "It should be noted that," or "It is a fact that," etc. I stated editing a little bit, but would love it if you could go back in to the article and clean up both the style and the information itself. I can tell from the conversation above that you know a lot about this subject; however, we have to report only what reliable sources have already said on the issue, not what we ourselves can "figure out." Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm happy to do what's required. I am not a full time Wikipedia editor so would appreciate some help. The problem is that the internet does not contain all of the information available . the internet is not all powerful. For instance the 1997 VAT Assurance Review is a pre-internet document (The UK Government have not put it online) but I have a copy. I do not understand why you have asked for confirmation of the Flower Industry reference when I provided a link to a letter from George Osborne. Isn't a letter from the Chancellor Of The Exchequer good enough! Slightly puzzled by that. The VAT Assurance review says that the relief was allowed to expedite horticultural goods through the mail and its also documented in Tolley's VAT guides of the period but again they are not online. Suggestions ? Why was DMS link removed ? If there is a rule I am unaware of please advise. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbrothersback ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Hows it looking now ? Bigbrothersback ( talk) 13:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
User:Bigbrothersback invited me to take a look at the page again, as xe felt that a new user was removing facts that did not support a certain agenda. I'll be honest--while this article remained on my watch list all summer, I fairly intentionally ignored it. To me, the article seemed to be quite questionable, as it seemed fairly opinionated. But, at the time, I didn't care all that much, and had other interests in Wikipedia drawing my attention more strongly. I'm going to take a look now; no promises, and I don't mean to say that I have any special insight. It might actually help that I know literally nothing about the situation other than what's written here, as I promise I have literally no agenda other than making sure the page follows policies and guidelines. I'm going to invite the other author to come discuss the changes xe made here, as even if the changes were correct, it's hard to understand why since xe didn't use edit summaries. Qwyrxian ( talk) 01:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to start by making some changes to the first Background paragraph. First, I note that the article says that price is the major factor. The source quoted, however, does not say that. In fact, it's pretty much impossible for a source to prove that, unless they were to conduct a wide UK survey of people purchasing online goods, and ask them why they were shopping online as opposed to in stores. Furthermore, the article quoted is only about CD and other music sales. Thus, we can draw no conclusions about internet businesses in general. I have revised that paragraph to be more inline with the source and not make extraordinary claims that are unsupported.
Second, that stuff about Robin-hooding has absolutely nothing to do with VAT or the Channel Islands (the article mentions neither), and so it cannot be included here--including it is a form of original research called synthesis. Stating that it is cheaper by an amount approximately equal to the VAT is pure original research, and the claim cannot be made unless a reliable source already made it. The final part about consumer perception is entirely unsourced, and appears to be original research, so I removed it also.
Finally, to help make the context more clear, I added some more info from the Bowers article--factual data actually related to the topic.
I'm not going to make any more changes to the article right now. I've found, from dealing with controversial subjects before, that it's usually best to take things very slowly, one step at a time. I'd like to hear other people's feedback on those changes. Qwyrxian ( talk) 01:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Fine with me. Many music industry figures are deliberately kept secret but the fact everyone is offshore proves the way the market is going. Nobody would bother if downloads were an issue. - Bigbrothersback —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbrothersback ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
This user is bogus - Created purely to hack this entry Richardallen92 Bigbrothersback ( talk) 01:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The article is far, far, far, far too long. It really needs to be edited down to about the size of the Background section. Thanks! Fin © ™ 08:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Good luck...it contains a huge amount of research so would appreciate that its not cut to shreds. Not everything can be verified on the web particularly pre-internet material but all information here is correct. This issue is contentious and currently subject to pending EU legal action which will clarify much of what is written here. Depending on which way it goes large chunks will become redundant. The issue is currently legally unclear until the EU make it clear. That's why the article is so long. Its unavoidable. I can tell you its regarded as a good article by those looking at this issue. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 21:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
One other important point. There are people making huge amounts of money from the use of this relief who would be extremely unhappy to see the issues exposed herein. Please bear that in mind when anyone makes a change. Is the removal of information being done to cover the issue up or is it being done to add balance to the article. I'm more than happy to see this article balanced informative accurate and fair. If you are making a fortune from the abuse of a tax relief then you certainly do not want the abuse highlighted. I trust your good and impartial judgement regarding this entry. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 09:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
With the greatest respect I didn't come on here to be psycho analysed and in any case your speculative point of view is not correct! Please just note what I said. This issue is yet to be clarified in law so for that reason it will be one of two possible outcomes. The piece at present tries to present a snap shot of the facts as they stand now from both perspectives, but its a fluid situation as is any issue relating to the use of any EU tax relief. Your input is appreciated. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 14:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/24/business-off-shore-tax NB This is still ongoing..... Bigbrothersback ( talk) 14:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I've finally come to take another look, and am making some more changes to this section.
The second paragraph was completely removed. The two sources do not meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources. The "Direct Consult" is a private firm, and you were using it to source a definition. Further, the claim that the term "fulfillment" is used different from the usual way is pure original research. The second source (which I relocated to the other place it is used) is a report to Parliament, but it is entirely the opinion of the Scrutiny Panel. At best, it qualifies only as a primary source, and as such we can only site it as providing its own opinion (we cannot site it as fact). I think that's how it's used later on, but I haven't looked at that section in too much detail.
The third paragraph was cut in half. The claim that the reason the VAT business from the bailiwicks is more valuable than that from Hong Kong has to do with shipping time certainly seems reasonable, but is still pure original research. There are potentially many other reasons why people choose the bailiwicks, and so, without a reliable source indicating that is the reason they are chosen, the information must be removed. The last part about the 3/4 loss is a duplicate of the information earlier in the paragraph, so no need for it to be there twice.
I pulled the whole 4th paragraph. Nothing that it stated was in the citation given. That citation never mentions LVCR. All that article talks about is job losses due to increased competition in the fulfillment industry. It doesn't say anything about other post business coming in specifically to take advantage of VAT, etc. So not only was the citation misused, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this article. Or, rather, the connection is tenuous, and requires a lot of inference (i.e. original research) to make the connection.
I'll stay with just this section for today, so that there's time to comment. But if the rest of the article uses sources and makes claims like those being made here, I expect to continue to be removing significant chunks from the rest. You (Bigbrothersback) said above that this article contains "a huge amount of research." I'm beginning to believe that by this you mean what we call original research, which is strictly forbidden on Wikipedia. The only thing we may do is say what other, reliable, independent sources have said on the subject. In the case of opinions or speculations, we must be clear that they are opinions, attribute them, and not state them as facts. Furthermore, we should generally rely mostly on secondary sources, not primary documents. This is not to say that the research you did is bad or incorrect, only that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your original research. After waiting a bit and/or hearing feedback, I'll move on to the next section. 06:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm tempted to let you do the whole thing and see how it looks. Half the problem has been people with a 'view on this subject' editing it to their own agenda (some of it unrelated...such as some of the bits you removed) If you are impartial then it would be interesting to see what you do with it. I'd only object to anything fundamental being removed. FYI Many of the issues covered here have appeared on here wwww.vatloophole.co.uk which is also getting referenced in major press and on other websites so is becoming a source of information. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 21:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I think you need to review your changes in the light of this http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/09/online-shopping-vat-channel-islands
Which verifies some of the assertions in the article. 91.125.96.191 ( talk) 12:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm back with more time for the hard editing work needing to be done on this article.
Changes made:
I'm not planning on taking this out permanently, but think this should probably be moved to another section. But only maybe...see, ideally, we want to get rid of the separate "controversy" section. In general, such sections are considered to be poor, POV style writing. We ideally want to present all of the facts neutrally, without labelling them as such. Now, if reliable sources have used that word, we can ourselves also use it, but I'll look into that that. In any event, this part doesn't belong here, as it doesn't fit with the rest of this section.
I'll wait a few days for feedback/adjustments, then proceed onward. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello .Qwyrxian..sorry I haven't had chance to get back to this. The speed at this issue is now moving in the UK media is making updating this complex as facts are emerging all the time so there is more press coverage that backs up various aspects of this article. Lord Lucas is just about to ask questions in the House of Lords that will result in more data. I'll get back to this when I can. Thanks for the clean up.Probably best to wait until dust settles Bigbrothersback ( talk) 15:27, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
References
I pulled out a lot of information from that section. Some of it was irrelevant (the stuff about region free DVDs), and a little bit was redundant (one paragraph was exactly duplicated), but the main problem was lack of sources, original research, and lack of neutrality. We may never draw our own conclusions about numerical data (literally, the only conclusions we can draw are things like A is bigger than B, and only if that fact is patently obvious). We cannot present the controversy in Wikipedia's voice--that is, we cannot say explicitly that "The use of LVCR is controversial because it may be abusive." All we can say is "These people have claimed that it was abusive (ref)."
I think the edit summaries I left explain each of the removals or changes; let me know if it wasn't clear why I removed something.
The section still needs to be improved, because it's a bit unstructured. My guess is that by reorganizing the info (maybe even subsections) we could make it easier to understand. But at least now the section isn't in violation (or, is at least in less violation) of our fundamental policies. Qwyrxian ( talk) 04:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I removed a chunk from the Guernsey section. This:
is pure OR, speculative about the future, and not neutral.
This:
is not stated in the article--in fact the article's point is that the arrangements are not misleading--this is a misrepresentation of the source.
This:
is unsourced, and borderline OR (in assuming that the move to Guernsey is the cause for the success, even assuming such success exists).
I took out other unsourced claims from other sections, too. I suppose I should continue combing through the whole article...I will if I get the inclination. Qwyrxian ( talk) 23:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Qwyrxian Sorry haven't been back to this. Much of what was speculation on here is now turning into fact as the EU make it clear that the Channel Islands use of LVCR is an abuse. Once that is in the public domain with references I'll go through and alter this article as it will all then be just a case of stating the public facts. That will also remove all of the controversy from this entry. The article will then be discussing LVCR and The Channel Islands in terms of a practice that has been abolished! Bigbrothersback ( talk) 10:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
References
While there are a couple of notes that this is no longer the case (one in the intro, one in the government response section). The bulk of the article is written as if VAT free imports of low value goods from the channel islands to the UK are the current situation. Someone needs to go through and fix this.
Also does anyone know the situation with imports from the channel islands to the rest of the EU? are they still covered? 94.6.24.111 ( talk) 19:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
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I have taken out irrelevant information (i.e. import duties into Jersey - this should be dealt with in a different article as this article is about VAT free imports from the Channel Islands [Exports] not imports into The Channel Islands) and I have put in current verifiable and relevant information. If any justification or evidence is required please advise and I will supply it. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 10:20, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Man vyi thanks for your changes to layout. Very good. I will add the missing bits of information shortly. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 11:01, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
OK . This is generally known as that VAT Loophole but that's not an accurate description. My only concern is fringe information added to this making it too complex to understand. I think its fair to say that sales volume of consumer trade from CI to UK dwarfs UK to CI and I can't imagine companies abusing a relief coming into in CI on the same scale as sales wouldn't be big enough.Don't you think ? Bigbrothersback ( talk) 15:40, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
having thought about it I don't think that changing title of this piece would be helpful. Whilst I don't think we should be judgemental the fact remains that Jersey and Guernsey Governments have fought hard to keep this trade going including the elements that could be abusive. Playing that down in the title and putting this trade on equal footing with goods coming the other way would be biased in my view. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 15:49, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Justifications for page move and copyedit:
Hopefully the rewrite presents a more balanced view. Man vyi 16:06, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
This is nonsensical. Point 1: Loophole does not imply any sort of value judgement (it simply indicates a point where the wording of the law does not cover all circumstances), and the argument about where the loophole is is mere sophistry. Point 2: The VAT regime covers 27 nations, with an area of well over a million square miles and 500 million citizens. The Channel Islands have a combined area of about 70 square miles and a population of 155,000. Quite how anyone could construe the CI situation as the norm is entirely unclear. 87.244.104.187 ( talk) 17:58, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
NPOV removed as this article now contains facts that can all be verified. I agree with above comment. This is not a loophole which would mean there was an unforseen effect of the drafting of LVCR legislation. LVCR is legitimate and the legislation is very clear particularly relating to mail order. The bulk of the trade is an abuse of LVCR (see article) The other points here are nonsensical statements. The article now indicates concrete reasons why UK companies are complaining. If anyone wishes to question anything on the page please raise it in talk and I will address it. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 09:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
I just removed all of the companies. The thing that drew my attention was the lead phrase, which talked about how this was an incomplete list of companies "profiting" from the VAT exemption. But we can't add those companies without reliable sources connecting them to the VAT-free issue. To just say "Country X does business in the Channel Islands" automatically means that they are "profiting" from the exemption is a violation of WP:SYNTH. Only those companies which have been discussed in reliable sources belong here. Furthermore, I don't even think there should be a list, anyway--lists like this invite spamming, as was the case with a number of the stores on the list. If any companies have been mentioned in reliable sources, include that info in prose in the text. Qwyrxian ( talk) 10:37, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
OK. Main retailers of interest now referenced in the text Bigbrothersback ( talk) 20:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I was reading through the Controversy section, and noticed some very clear WP:OR--specifically, WP:SYNTH. As far as I can tell, the Halifax judgment is not related to the Channel Islands. If it is, someone please point me to sources with more information on the case, and I'll gladly add them and revise my edits. But if I am correct, and the Halifax case is separate, then it is very much original research to draw the conclusion that the Halifax case necessarily applies to what is happening in the Channel Islands. It may be true, but it's Original Research until a reliable source asserts that it is applicable. I almost stripped out the Halifax judgment in general, because just putting it into this article could be described as synthesis, but I realized that we could keep it, by using it as the base definition of VAT abuse, and then later showing that others have asserted that what is happening with the CI companies is VAT abuse.
Second, you'll see that I added a lot of "citation needed" tags. Most of this section is uncited. I don't know who added it originally, and where he/she got the info from, but this section desperately needs sources. If sources can't be found in short order (maybe a week or so), I'm going to remove the information, because we must verify all information in our articles with reliable sources. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Well we are entering the realm of legal argument and as yet Halifax has not been applied to the CI LVCR issue. I have very reliable sources but I'm not going to quote them here. I can tell you that it has already been applied to very similar arrangements to LVCR. Halifax relates to LVCR in the case of companies in the Channel Islands that have set up on the Islands with the sole purpose of avoiding VAT . I would agree that Halifax does not apply to every company on the CI but if you are exporting goods to the Islands from the UK with the intention of reimporting them by mail to UK customers that is clearly an abuse as it fulfils no other commercial purpose than to take advantage of a tax relief. Under Halifax that is abusive. Its not difficult to spot the companies that are on the Islands transshipping products to a UK customer base. What other reason would they be there ? One company has even publicly stated its there to take advantage of LVCR whilst the Jersey Authorities also admit that the 'fulfilment' industry is on the Islands due to LVCR. I do however agree its pointless discussing it here and until action is taken there is no actual source. However if action is taken you can delete most of the article. So lets wait and see... Bigbrothersback ( talk) 13:51, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
I should clarify- Halifax could potentially apply if a retailer keeps stock in the UK and then roundtrips it through the Channel Islands (although the fact Government is aware of and has chosen not to close the "loophole" in question would make this approach somewhat challenging for HMRC). There would however be no grounds for applying Halifax to LVCR per se, i.e. where goods arrive in the Channel Islands directly and are then imported into the UK. So perhaps we are in fact agreeing. LeContexte ( talk) 07:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
OK I have added in the correct relevance of Halifax with references to sources Bigbrothersback ( talk) 20:38, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I was trying to make it so that we don't have a separate notes and references section, but I realized that to do that we have to pick only one way of doing it--either inline citations or List-defined references. For those unfamiliar with the two methods, the first puts the citation details in the body of the text, as with the items currently listed in "Notes". LDR only leaves <ref name = "name"/> in the text, and puts the references (links, info) in the reference list itself. There are pros and cons to each, but WP:CITE does say that we need to be consistent. If we can't agree, we have to use the inline citations, as that is how the article originally started. Based on some arguments on other pages (see Talk:Halle Berry, if you're interested), I've recently become convinced that LDR will make editing easier, overall, but others disagree. Is there a consensus here to do it one way or the other? Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I prefer LDR. I will go through this article and bring it all in line shortly. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 09:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
I have made some revisions and changes to entire article. I am not a full time Wikipedia editor so please advise if anything can be done better. Some of the requested citations are impossible. I was involved in the Fopp/Musc Zone Judicial Review attempt which never made it to the internet but it did take place. Thanks! Bigbrothersback ( talk) 22:50, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Bigbrothersback has recently added a lot of information to this article, and much of it is unreferenced. Some of it may be OR. A lot of it is not in an appropriate style--we should never have phrases like "It should be noted that," or "It is a fact that," etc. I stated editing a little bit, but would love it if you could go back in to the article and clean up both the style and the information itself. I can tell from the conversation above that you know a lot about this subject; however, we have to report only what reliable sources have already said on the issue, not what we ourselves can "figure out." Qwyrxian ( talk) 05:00, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm happy to do what's required. I am not a full time Wikipedia editor so would appreciate some help. The problem is that the internet does not contain all of the information available . the internet is not all powerful. For instance the 1997 VAT Assurance Review is a pre-internet document (The UK Government have not put it online) but I have a copy. I do not understand why you have asked for confirmation of the Flower Industry reference when I provided a link to a letter from George Osborne. Isn't a letter from the Chancellor Of The Exchequer good enough! Slightly puzzled by that. The VAT Assurance review says that the relief was allowed to expedite horticultural goods through the mail and its also documented in Tolley's VAT guides of the period but again they are not online. Suggestions ? Why was DMS link removed ? If there is a rule I am unaware of please advise. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbrothersback ( talk • contribs) 10:15, 27 August 2010 (UTC)
Hows it looking now ? Bigbrothersback ( talk) 13:14, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
User:Bigbrothersback invited me to take a look at the page again, as xe felt that a new user was removing facts that did not support a certain agenda. I'll be honest--while this article remained on my watch list all summer, I fairly intentionally ignored it. To me, the article seemed to be quite questionable, as it seemed fairly opinionated. But, at the time, I didn't care all that much, and had other interests in Wikipedia drawing my attention more strongly. I'm going to take a look now; no promises, and I don't mean to say that I have any special insight. It might actually help that I know literally nothing about the situation other than what's written here, as I promise I have literally no agenda other than making sure the page follows policies and guidelines. I'm going to invite the other author to come discuss the changes xe made here, as even if the changes were correct, it's hard to understand why since xe didn't use edit summaries. Qwyrxian ( talk) 01:00, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I'm going to start by making some changes to the first Background paragraph. First, I note that the article says that price is the major factor. The source quoted, however, does not say that. In fact, it's pretty much impossible for a source to prove that, unless they were to conduct a wide UK survey of people purchasing online goods, and ask them why they were shopping online as opposed to in stores. Furthermore, the article quoted is only about CD and other music sales. Thus, we can draw no conclusions about internet businesses in general. I have revised that paragraph to be more inline with the source and not make extraordinary claims that are unsupported.
Second, that stuff about Robin-hooding has absolutely nothing to do with VAT or the Channel Islands (the article mentions neither), and so it cannot be included here--including it is a form of original research called synthesis. Stating that it is cheaper by an amount approximately equal to the VAT is pure original research, and the claim cannot be made unless a reliable source already made it. The final part about consumer perception is entirely unsourced, and appears to be original research, so I removed it also.
Finally, to help make the context more clear, I added some more info from the Bowers article--factual data actually related to the topic.
I'm not going to make any more changes to the article right now. I've found, from dealing with controversial subjects before, that it's usually best to take things very slowly, one step at a time. I'd like to hear other people's feedback on those changes. Qwyrxian ( talk) 01:27, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Fine with me. Many music industry figures are deliberately kept secret but the fact everyone is offshore proves the way the market is going. Nobody would bother if downloads were an issue. - Bigbrothersback —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bigbrothersback ( talk • contribs) 01:41, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
This user is bogus - Created purely to hack this entry Richardallen92 Bigbrothersback ( talk) 01:48, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
The article is far, far, far, far too long. It really needs to be edited down to about the size of the Background section. Thanks! Fin © ™ 08:58, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
Good luck...it contains a huge amount of research so would appreciate that its not cut to shreds. Not everything can be verified on the web particularly pre-internet material but all information here is correct. This issue is contentious and currently subject to pending EU legal action which will clarify much of what is written here. Depending on which way it goes large chunks will become redundant. The issue is currently legally unclear until the EU make it clear. That's why the article is so long. Its unavoidable. I can tell you its regarded as a good article by those looking at this issue. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 21:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
One other important point. There are people making huge amounts of money from the use of this relief who would be extremely unhappy to see the issues exposed herein. Please bear that in mind when anyone makes a change. Is the removal of information being done to cover the issue up or is it being done to add balance to the article. I'm more than happy to see this article balanced informative accurate and fair. If you are making a fortune from the abuse of a tax relief then you certainly do not want the abuse highlighted. I trust your good and impartial judgement regarding this entry. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 09:38, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
With the greatest respect I didn't come on here to be psycho analysed and in any case your speculative point of view is not correct! Please just note what I said. This issue is yet to be clarified in law so for that reason it will be one of two possible outcomes. The piece at present tries to present a snap shot of the facts as they stand now from both perspectives, but its a fluid situation as is any issue relating to the use of any EU tax relief. Your input is appreciated. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 14:32, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jan/24/business-off-shore-tax NB This is still ongoing..... Bigbrothersback ( talk) 14:45, 30 November 2010 (UTC)
I've finally come to take another look, and am making some more changes to this section.
The second paragraph was completely removed. The two sources do not meet Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources. The "Direct Consult" is a private firm, and you were using it to source a definition. Further, the claim that the term "fulfillment" is used different from the usual way is pure original research. The second source (which I relocated to the other place it is used) is a report to Parliament, but it is entirely the opinion of the Scrutiny Panel. At best, it qualifies only as a primary source, and as such we can only site it as providing its own opinion (we cannot site it as fact). I think that's how it's used later on, but I haven't looked at that section in too much detail.
The third paragraph was cut in half. The claim that the reason the VAT business from the bailiwicks is more valuable than that from Hong Kong has to do with shipping time certainly seems reasonable, but is still pure original research. There are potentially many other reasons why people choose the bailiwicks, and so, without a reliable source indicating that is the reason they are chosen, the information must be removed. The last part about the 3/4 loss is a duplicate of the information earlier in the paragraph, so no need for it to be there twice.
I pulled the whole 4th paragraph. Nothing that it stated was in the citation given. That citation never mentions LVCR. All that article talks about is job losses due to increased competition in the fulfillment industry. It doesn't say anything about other post business coming in specifically to take advantage of VAT, etc. So not only was the citation misused, it doesn't have anything to do with the topic of this article. Or, rather, the connection is tenuous, and requires a lot of inference (i.e. original research) to make the connection.
I'll stay with just this section for today, so that there's time to comment. But if the rest of the article uses sources and makes claims like those being made here, I expect to continue to be removing significant chunks from the rest. You (Bigbrothersback) said above that this article contains "a huge amount of research." I'm beginning to believe that by this you mean what we call original research, which is strictly forbidden on Wikipedia. The only thing we may do is say what other, reliable, independent sources have said on the subject. In the case of opinions or speculations, we must be clear that they are opinions, attribute them, and not state them as facts. Furthermore, we should generally rely mostly on secondary sources, not primary documents. This is not to say that the research you did is bad or incorrect, only that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your original research. After waiting a bit and/or hearing feedback, I'll move on to the next section. 06:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm tempted to let you do the whole thing and see how it looks. Half the problem has been people with a 'view on this subject' editing it to their own agenda (some of it unrelated...such as some of the bits you removed) If you are impartial then it would be interesting to see what you do with it. I'd only object to anything fundamental being removed. FYI Many of the issues covered here have appeared on here wwww.vatloophole.co.uk which is also getting referenced in major press and on other websites so is becoming a source of information. Bigbrothersback ( talk) 21:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
I think you need to review your changes in the light of this http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/dec/09/online-shopping-vat-channel-islands
Which verifies some of the assertions in the article. 91.125.96.191 ( talk) 12:46, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I'm back with more time for the hard editing work needing to be done on this article.
Changes made:
I'm not planning on taking this out permanently, but think this should probably be moved to another section. But only maybe...see, ideally, we want to get rid of the separate "controversy" section. In general, such sections are considered to be poor, POV style writing. We ideally want to present all of the facts neutrally, without labelling them as such. Now, if reliable sources have used that word, we can ourselves also use it, but I'll look into that that. In any event, this part doesn't belong here, as it doesn't fit with the rest of this section.
I'll wait a few days for feedback/adjustments, then proceed onward. Qwyrxian ( talk) 00:04, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Hello .Qwyrxian..sorry I haven't had chance to get back to this. The speed at this issue is now moving in the UK media is making updating this complex as facts are emerging all the time so there is more press coverage that backs up various aspects of this article. Lord Lucas is just about to ask questions in the House of Lords that will result in more data. I'll get back to this when I can. Thanks for the clean up.Probably best to wait until dust settles Bigbrothersback ( talk) 15:27, 12 February 2011 (UTC)
References
I pulled out a lot of information from that section. Some of it was irrelevant (the stuff about region free DVDs), and a little bit was redundant (one paragraph was exactly duplicated), but the main problem was lack of sources, original research, and lack of neutrality. We may never draw our own conclusions about numerical data (literally, the only conclusions we can draw are things like A is bigger than B, and only if that fact is patently obvious). We cannot present the controversy in Wikipedia's voice--that is, we cannot say explicitly that "The use of LVCR is controversial because it may be abusive." All we can say is "These people have claimed that it was abusive (ref)."
I think the edit summaries I left explain each of the removals or changes; let me know if it wasn't clear why I removed something.
The section still needs to be improved, because it's a bit unstructured. My guess is that by reorganizing the info (maybe even subsections) we could make it easier to understand. But at least now the section isn't in violation (or, is at least in less violation) of our fundamental policies. Qwyrxian ( talk) 04:50, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
I removed a chunk from the Guernsey section. This:
is pure OR, speculative about the future, and not neutral.
This:
is not stated in the article--in fact the article's point is that the arrangements are not misleading--this is a misrepresentation of the source.
This:
is unsourced, and borderline OR (in assuming that the move to Guernsey is the cause for the success, even assuming such success exists).
I took out other unsourced claims from other sections, too. I suppose I should continue combing through the whole article...I will if I get the inclination. Qwyrxian ( talk) 23:56, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
Hi Qwyrxian Sorry haven't been back to this. Much of what was speculation on here is now turning into fact as the EU make it clear that the Channel Islands use of LVCR is an abuse. Once that is in the public domain with references I'll go through and alter this article as it will all then be just a case of stating the public facts. That will also remove all of the controversy from this entry. The article will then be discussing LVCR and The Channel Islands in terms of a practice that has been abolished! Bigbrothersback ( talk) 10:56, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
References
While there are a couple of notes that this is no longer the case (one in the intro, one in the government response section). The bulk of the article is written as if VAT free imports of low value goods from the channel islands to the UK are the current situation. Someone needs to go through and fix this.
Also does anyone know the situation with imports from the channel islands to the rest of the EU? are they still covered? 94.6.24.111 ( talk) 19:49, 31 October 2013 (UTC)
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