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I don't quite understand why there are two seperate articles, since the information there is only an incomplete subset of the information here. If it turns out that the other article actually makes sense for some reason, then it should be renamed to Uvs Nuur Basin. -- Latebird 21:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe the Uvs Nuur is an Endorheic basin rather than a Rift valley, like the Sistan Basin is. We can check with the Rift valley people if we are not sure. But since it does not drain to an ocean but rather is an enclosed watershed, I think that makes it an endorheic basin -- unless you have read somewhere otherwise. Sincerely, Mattisse 00:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Why does the article have almost nothing about the lake in it and concentrates on the basin instead? If you are going to do that (ignore the lake and concentrate on the basin) should you not change the name of the article? It is very misleading the way it is now. The World Heritage Site referring to the basin, not the lake, is covered here. The World Heritage Site names the basin not the lake as the title of the site. When the lake is only one aspect of the over all basin, it seems like a strange way to name an article. Also, it is misleading to readers looking for the World Heritage Site to find it buried in the name of another article. Mattisse 20:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The Uvs Nuur has already been confused by making the article about the lake instead of the basin. Much of the relevant information has been removed or confused in the merge or copy/paste or whatever an editor did. The hollow, although lumped in with the World Heritage site is really about a different set of issues including nomadic peoples, archeology sites, enormous variation in terrain, endangered animals etc. The current article on Uvs Nuur seems to have missed all the relevant points on the geological aspects, plus the name of the article is different from the name given on World Heritage Site. Further, the editors have disregarded that almost all citations are about the basin; there is hardly anything in the article about the lake.
If you refuse to allow editors to write articles that they are interested in, and insist on an instant mindless merge, we can have an RFC, which I will abide by, unless you consent to a rewrite of the current article so it is accurate and not confusing. Why do you have such an investment in preventing other editors from writing articles about what they are interested in. It is against policy to #REDIRECT without a discussion which is what was done before. Please consider this, rather than instinctively merge everything. Many articles have been ruined by mindless merging. Mattisse 00:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The whole merge/unmerge issue stems from translation and terminology problems, aggravated by internet being the greatest invention to propagate ignorance.Several different notions are mixed here. I will try to untangle these tomorrow. Stay cool. `' Míkka >t 04:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the two newly (re)created articles Ubsunur Hollow and Uvs Nuur basin, I see the following definitions in each introduction:
Ubsunur Hollow (also spelled Ubsu-Nur) is a fragile mountain basin or depression located on the territorial border of Mongolia and the Republic of Tuva in the Russian Federation among the mountains - Tannu-Ola Mountains, and the Altay Mountains region - part of a combination of raised lands and depressions.
The Uvs Nuur Basin (also Ubsu-Nur spelling is seen) is a fragile mountain endorheic basin, named after lake Uvs Nuur,a large, shallow and very saline lake. It is located on the territorial border of Mongolia and the Republic of Tuva in the Russian Federation among the mountains - Tannu-Ola Mountains, and the Altay Mountains region - part of a combination of raised lands and depressions.
To my untrained eye, those two definitions seem to describe exactly the same thing. Can anyone enlighten me what the difference is, or if that is not possible, why we now have two seperate articles about it? If they are something different, and don't just describe different aspects of the same geographical feature, then the articles should spell out that difference with the greatest clarity possible. -- Latebird ( talk) 13:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This argument over the various meanings of "basin" is so pointless, because in the end, any multiple articles on Uvs Nuur/Ubsunur basin/hollow/depression would all be very similar and merged anyway! -- P199 ( talk) 19:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
There are a cluster of related articles. One is primarily of geological interest, another is primarily of ethnic, ecological, and archaeological interest. User:Latebird demonstrated in his first run of merge/redirects that he does not understand the geology of the area. He also does not understand the historical importance of adjacent areas (which will become more important as the burial mounds and other archaeological sites are excavated). He seems unaware of the ethnic concerns. Ecologically, the lake is water. The other cluster contain glaciers, mountains unique combinations of steppe, tundra etc., unlike seen in any other places of the world. Also, there are endangered species here, like the snow leopard, which obviously do not live in the lake. User:Latebird has not given adequate thought or respect, in my opinion, to this unique area of the world and how best to present it. He has flung/merged/redirected pages that where carefully written and by combining them haphazardly, has made his ultimate page confusing and inaccurate. Mattisse 16:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
For articles where its title and content make it clear that it the same thing, proceeding with a merge is not necessarily against policy (see WP:MM). I suggest the following articles:
As it stands now, there is still too much overlap, which may prompt a merge. -- P199 ( talk) 19:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I am strongly against any merging of the items in my version of the disambig page. There is enough confusion in real life and don't try to carry it over into wikipedia. We are here to make things clear, not to formally merge things just because thinks seem similar to a first best layman wikipedian obsessed with policies and guidelines. No policies can take precedence over reality. Uvs Nuur basin and Uvs Nuur Basin are not one and the same and the topics are easily separable. If you cannot do this, go away and don't mess with my intention to bring order. Alternatively I may well let you play your "cut and merge" for a while, wait until you get bored, and then redo it correctly. Make your pick. `' Míkka >t 20:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Will this article help? [1] Or maybe it makes it all more confusing. Mattisse 21:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a Lake Bai-Khol there also: http://www.springerlink.com/content/743675084ht72197/ Mattisse 14:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC) This is strong salt lake (water mineralisation 31.4 % - it is leach).
A discussion has been opened in a central location to reach consensus about the organization of the various articles relating to "Uvs Nuur". Please join this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia.
- Hux ( talk) 02:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The section currently states that the Uvs Nuur Basin is half as big as Mongolia, which seems rather big (one zero too much?) It also states that Uureg nuur is in the same basin, which seems a bit strange to me given the 2000m ridge between Uvs and Uureg lakes, but maybe this is just my ignorance again. Any comments? Yaan ( talk) 14:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This article was recently subject to a mass move under the pretext of using "proper english names". However, much of the rationale seems to be merely derived from the fact that 'nuur' translates to 'lake', not from actually looking at which form is more common in current usage. We aren't going to change Tian Shan to Tian mountains, after all. Google scholar for example does give a (slightly) different picture of current usage: 24 hits for "lake-uvs water" [2] (9 of which use variants of "Lake Uvs nuur") vs. 112 for "uvs-nuur water" [3], for example. Given that there is a whole cluster of articles like "Uvs nuur basin", "Ubsunur hollow" etc, using "Lake Uvs" seems also to create more confusion than this kind of renaming was supposed to prevent, so I think "Uvs Nuur" might be the better name for this article. I am not going to fight over this (I already reverted a some of the more nonsensical renamings without any discussion), just wanted to give my 2 cents. Yaan ( talk) 17:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The relevant WP policies seem to be at WP:MOSPN. It does give a preference of "Lake xxx" over "xxx nuur", but as I see it only for "major" lakes and not at all costs. Yaan ( talk) 13:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
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I don't quite understand why there are two seperate articles, since the information there is only an incomplete subset of the information here. If it turns out that the other article actually makes sense for some reason, then it should be renamed to Uvs Nuur Basin. -- Latebird 21:25, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
I believe the Uvs Nuur is an Endorheic basin rather than a Rift valley, like the Sistan Basin is. We can check with the Rift valley people if we are not sure. But since it does not drain to an ocean but rather is an enclosed watershed, I think that makes it an endorheic basin -- unless you have read somewhere otherwise. Sincerely, Mattisse 00:09, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Why does the article have almost nothing about the lake in it and concentrates on the basin instead? If you are going to do that (ignore the lake and concentrate on the basin) should you not change the name of the article? It is very misleading the way it is now. The World Heritage Site referring to the basin, not the lake, is covered here. The World Heritage Site names the basin not the lake as the title of the site. When the lake is only one aspect of the over all basin, it seems like a strange way to name an article. Also, it is misleading to readers looking for the World Heritage Site to find it buried in the name of another article. Mattisse 20:27, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
The Uvs Nuur has already been confused by making the article about the lake instead of the basin. Much of the relevant information has been removed or confused in the merge or copy/paste or whatever an editor did. The hollow, although lumped in with the World Heritage site is really about a different set of issues including nomadic peoples, archeology sites, enormous variation in terrain, endangered animals etc. The current article on Uvs Nuur seems to have missed all the relevant points on the geological aspects, plus the name of the article is different from the name given on World Heritage Site. Further, the editors have disregarded that almost all citations are about the basin; there is hardly anything in the article about the lake.
If you refuse to allow editors to write articles that they are interested in, and insist on an instant mindless merge, we can have an RFC, which I will abide by, unless you consent to a rewrite of the current article so it is accurate and not confusing. Why do you have such an investment in preventing other editors from writing articles about what they are interested in. It is against policy to #REDIRECT without a discussion which is what was done before. Please consider this, rather than instinctively merge everything. Many articles have been ruined by mindless merging. Mattisse 00:13, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
The whole merge/unmerge issue stems from translation and terminology problems, aggravated by internet being the greatest invention to propagate ignorance.Several different notions are mixed here. I will try to untangle these tomorrow. Stay cool. `' Míkka >t 04:40, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Looking at the two newly (re)created articles Ubsunur Hollow and Uvs Nuur basin, I see the following definitions in each introduction:
Ubsunur Hollow (also spelled Ubsu-Nur) is a fragile mountain basin or depression located on the territorial border of Mongolia and the Republic of Tuva in the Russian Federation among the mountains - Tannu-Ola Mountains, and the Altay Mountains region - part of a combination of raised lands and depressions.
The Uvs Nuur Basin (also Ubsu-Nur spelling is seen) is a fragile mountain endorheic basin, named after lake Uvs Nuur,a large, shallow and very saline lake. It is located on the territorial border of Mongolia and the Republic of Tuva in the Russian Federation among the mountains - Tannu-Ola Mountains, and the Altay Mountains region - part of a combination of raised lands and depressions.
To my untrained eye, those two definitions seem to describe exactly the same thing. Can anyone enlighten me what the difference is, or if that is not possible, why we now have two seperate articles about it? If they are something different, and don't just describe different aspects of the same geographical feature, then the articles should spell out that difference with the greatest clarity possible. -- Latebird ( talk) 13:02, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
This argument over the various meanings of "basin" is so pointless, because in the end, any multiple articles on Uvs Nuur/Ubsunur basin/hollow/depression would all be very similar and merged anyway! -- P199 ( talk) 19:08, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
There are a cluster of related articles. One is primarily of geological interest, another is primarily of ethnic, ecological, and archaeological interest. User:Latebird demonstrated in his first run of merge/redirects that he does not understand the geology of the area. He also does not understand the historical importance of adjacent areas (which will become more important as the burial mounds and other archaeological sites are excavated). He seems unaware of the ethnic concerns. Ecologically, the lake is water. The other cluster contain glaciers, mountains unique combinations of steppe, tundra etc., unlike seen in any other places of the world. Also, there are endangered species here, like the snow leopard, which obviously do not live in the lake. User:Latebird has not given adequate thought or respect, in my opinion, to this unique area of the world and how best to present it. He has flung/merged/redirected pages that where carefully written and by combining them haphazardly, has made his ultimate page confusing and inaccurate. Mattisse 16:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
For articles where its title and content make it clear that it the same thing, proceeding with a merge is not necessarily against policy (see WP:MM). I suggest the following articles:
As it stands now, there is still too much overlap, which may prompt a merge. -- P199 ( talk) 19:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
I am strongly against any merging of the items in my version of the disambig page. There is enough confusion in real life and don't try to carry it over into wikipedia. We are here to make things clear, not to formally merge things just because thinks seem similar to a first best layman wikipedian obsessed with policies and guidelines. No policies can take precedence over reality. Uvs Nuur basin and Uvs Nuur Basin are not one and the same and the topics are easily separable. If you cannot do this, go away and don't mess with my intention to bring order. Alternatively I may well let you play your "cut and merge" for a while, wait until you get bored, and then redo it correctly. Make your pick. `' Míkka >t 20:17, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Will this article help? [1] Or maybe it makes it all more confusing. Mattisse 21:57, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
There is a Lake Bai-Khol there also: http://www.springerlink.com/content/743675084ht72197/ Mattisse 14:07, 10 February 2008 (UTC) This is strong salt lake (water mineralisation 31.4 % - it is leach).
A discussion has been opened in a central location to reach consensus about the organization of the various articles relating to "Uvs Nuur". Please join this discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Central Asia.
- Hux ( talk) 02:55, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
The section currently states that the Uvs Nuur Basin is half as big as Mongolia, which seems rather big (one zero too much?) It also states that Uureg nuur is in the same basin, which seems a bit strange to me given the 2000m ridge between Uvs and Uureg lakes, but maybe this is just my ignorance again. Any comments? Yaan ( talk) 14:17, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
This article was recently subject to a mass move under the pretext of using "proper english names". However, much of the rationale seems to be merely derived from the fact that 'nuur' translates to 'lake', not from actually looking at which form is more common in current usage. We aren't going to change Tian Shan to Tian mountains, after all. Google scholar for example does give a (slightly) different picture of current usage: 24 hits for "lake-uvs water" [2] (9 of which use variants of "Lake Uvs nuur") vs. 112 for "uvs-nuur water" [3], for example. Given that there is a whole cluster of articles like "Uvs nuur basin", "Ubsunur hollow" etc, using "Lake Uvs" seems also to create more confusion than this kind of renaming was supposed to prevent, so I think "Uvs Nuur" might be the better name for this article. I am not going to fight over this (I already reverted a some of the more nonsensical renamings without any discussion), just wanted to give my 2 cents. Yaan ( talk) 17:07, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
The relevant WP policies seem to be at WP:MOSPN. It does give a preference of "Lake xxx" over "xxx nuur", but as I see it only for "major" lakes and not at all costs. Yaan ( talk) 13:33, 26 February 2008 (UTC)