This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The text around history of 50 vs 60 has been shortened over the past half year, so for reference below is what i originally compiled in August 2006. I have no real argument with the subsequent edits, but thought there might be some interest in some of the further details (and caveats) in the longer text. -- Psm 21:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Though many theories exist, and quite a few entertaining urban legends, there is little certitude in the details of the history of 60 Hz vs 50 Hz. What is known is that Westinghouse in the US decided on 60 Hz and AEG in Germany decided on 50 Hz, eventually leading to the world being mostly divided into two frequency camps. What is also well understood is why the frequencies ended up in the 50-60 range: direct current generators that came online in the late 1890:s were more stable at lower rotation speeds, and the flicker of lighting becomes noticeable somewhere below those levels. Westinghouse decided on 60 Hz before 1892 and AEG decided on 50 Hz by 1899. Tesla is believed to have had a key influence in the choice of 60 Hz by Westinghouse, but it may simply have been happenstance: Westinghouse won the World Fair in Chicago (1893) lighting contract, and after that the Niagara Falls project, both of which were 60 Hz. Maybe it simply "stuck" as corporate decisions are wont to do. AEGs choice of 50 Hz is by some thought to relate to a more "metric-friendly" number than 60, which would be peculiar since it is distinctly less efficient than 60Hz. It may also have been an intentional decision to be incompatible. In any case, a plethora of frequencies continued in broad use. For example, London in 1918 had 70 electric authorities with 24 different voltages and 10 different frequencies. It wasn't until after World War II with the advent of affordable electrical consumer goods that broader standards were enacted.
I heard a rumor that higher-frequency waves on the power lines would increase efficiency and decrease losses.
I'm skeptical, and Utility_frequency#400Hz seems to say the opposite. Which is true? — Omegatron 17:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The History section is a bit repetitive. The second half of that section says pretty much the same as the first, only in slightly different words. Perhaps someone ought to tighten that up a bit. 203.191.193.38 06:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Because of capacitance between lines, and between lines and ground, a higher frequency means more losses in the transportation of the energy. Conversely, a higher frequency requires smaller transformers, that can be cheaper or more efficient than lower frequencies. So, you gain on one side, and lose on the other.
The stability chapter on the main page claims that the line frequency is adjusted so that "at the end of the day" we are within reasonable accuracy. Another website claims that the power companies will run the frequency .01Hz fast or slow to bring it back so that there are exactly 216,000 cycles each hour. Which is right? Who controls the frequency, and how accurately do they keep it? Should I assume each hour has the right number of cycle, or each day? I suppose this needs to be answered on a per country or region basis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.84.205.186 ( talk) 23:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, i'm new to editing Wikipedia and stuff so i apologise if i post this at the wrong place. I happen to be color blind and actually had to check the world map with paint shop to spot which countries had different shades of blue. Would be nice if a version with more different colors could be posted.. For ex not yellow/green, or blue/that other blue.. it really sucks being color blind ;( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.226.106.200 ( talk) 03:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Were the 25 Hz Grids also used for electric lighting purposes? Were the 25 Hz-grids not used for railway electrifications single phase or three phase grids? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.245.89 ( talk) 10:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
AEG (Allgemeine Elektrizitäts-Gesellschaft) Was founded by Walter Rathenau (later foreign minister) and some other german "money people". The goal of the company was to introduce Edisons electricity patents in Germany. They purchased/rented a licence from Edison to do that. But the company was not founded by Edison. Nevertheless the AEG soon left the "DC party" to join the AC technology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.240.67 ( talk) 15:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the same AP story got picked up by a zillion Web outlets. But I can't find anything on the NERC Web site. The NERC June newsletter doesn't even mention this. I don't doubt Seth Borenstein at AP got his facts right, but it woudl be very interesting to see NERC's explanation of what is planned, how the specific drifts in time were estimated, and what savings might be obtained by letting long-term frequency regulation relax. -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 14:37, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
The 50 and 60 hz sounds like an amplifier buzz. Waveform is square with lots of harmonics superimposed. I don't think it's accurate to generalize to the "hum" of a single type of device. Might it be better to post actual clean sinusoidal waves instead? Even the 400hz sound has lots of harmonics superimposed, pretty much drowning out the base 400hz wave. 66.114.93.6 ( talk) 21:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Revision history of Utility frequency (cur) (prev) 15:27, 30 March 2010 Wtshymanski (talk | contribs) (26,438 bytes) (Please stop. This is just wrong and irrelevant. Undid revision 352963354 by Wdl1961 (talk)) (undo)
pls have some degreed electrical engheadline Subject/headline preview: (→droop speed control: new sectionrs stop this Wdl1961 ( talk) 15:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is is really true to say that "Unless specified by the manufacturer to operate on both 50 and 60 Hz, appliances may not operate efficiently or even safely if used on anything other than the intended frequency."? Fair enough if it's something specifically designed to use AC, there could be a problem, but at a consumer level most electronic devices rectify and smooth the current before it reaches anything sensitive, so would it really be such an issue? AlexGordovani ( talk) 21:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Added a small section in the Stability section outlining how the frequency of the system is restored after a load mismatch occurs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acidmagic ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
The history section states "Though many theories exist, and quite a few entertaining urban legends...", yet does not specify what any of these may be. Does anyone have the source that the writer quotes? I've tried to access the article via the institutional account we have at work, but our online access doesn't cover as far back as 1997. 197.87.229.61 ( talk) 16:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The tables have a column labled "cycles", a terminology that's been obsolete for more than 50 years. The description is "frequency", the unit of measure is "hertz", and the symbol for hertz is "Hz". Cycles doesn't belong in an encyclopedia except in an article about obsolete terminology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.62.214 ( talk) 00:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but if you take a look at the tables, the most recent one dates from 1945. In all likelihood, the column is labelled "Cycles" because that's the terminology used in the original tables from which the writer was copying. If the documents used as sources in this section were created during the time periods when "cycles" would have been the correct terminology, then it's still an acceptable use of the term. Perhaps we could just add a footnote to the effect that the original tables use dated terminology, and that the term has since been replaced by "frequency". Bird Tiger ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Cycles should at least be cycles per second or CPS as it used be indicated. It is not wrong to recreate the tables as they were in the original source. However, it is also completely acceptable to modernize it to Hz. Constant314 ( talk) 20:49, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The article says "The general control algorithm for LFC was developed by N. Cohn in 1971.[31]" Nonsense. The mechanics of LFC (as well as economic dispatch ED), including area control error ACE, were the subject of a noted book. https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Control-Interconnected-Systems-Kirchmayer/dp/B007CPV5W8 Economic Control of Interconnected Systems by L K Kirchmayer, Publisher: John Wiley and Sons (1959) ASIN: B007CPV5W8 Anorlunda ( talk) 20:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I've reverted the removal of a secondary source and addition of this statement: "reducing the manual correction would reduce clock error overall, not increase it." The source doesn't say that, and I don't believe it's true. What it does say is that eliminating manual TEC will "not adversely affect frequency." The NERC proposal sacrifices long term clock error in favor of improving short term frequency swings. MSNBC accurately describes the situation and has the advantage of being a secondary source. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 15:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
No authoritative source is given for the claim that there is no technical reason to prefer one frequency over another. Without such a reference, the claim can't be interpreted as anything beyond an opinion or original research, neither of which are acceptable in Wikipedia articles.
While I don't have an authoritative source to the contrary at hand, it is self-evident that if different frequencies didn't have any advantages or disadvantages, utilities and equipment vendors would simply have all followed a defacto standard established by the first, rather than making a lot of different choices. The article even gives examples of reasons to prefer one or another frequency, such as the size of the required transformers, and lighting flicker.
The "citation needed" tag should not be removed until and unless the claim can be backed up by an authoritative reference. That's standard Wikipedia policy. It is NOT policy for editors to remove "citation needed" tags because of their personal opinions. -- Brouhaha ( talk) 06:23, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Utility frequency became more of an issue with the introduction of CRT based television. Early TV broadcasters usually synchronised their field rate to that of line current for convenience and because early TV designs tended to be very susceptible to "hum bars" which were subjectively less obtrusive when stationary. Therefore most countries choice of broadcast standard was defined (in part) by whichever mains frequency was more widespread locally. A field rate of 50 Hz (rather than 60 Hz) was significantly more economical in terms of bandwidth utilisation but at the expense of some viewers noticing slightly worse flicker. 2A00:23C6:7F93:1A00:E9FA:AC85:3B3D:E0F3 ( talk) 10:56, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
No mention of 16+2⁄3 Hz?, or the close-but-no-cigar 16.7 Hz? These were, and still are, widely used for electric railways, to avoid the difficulties of making powerful motors work with the higher frequencies of 50 or 60 Hz in the early days. See railway electrification systems. Distribution for these low-frequency systems was difficult and mostly avoided in favour of more local generation, but they're important systems and within scope here. Andy Dingley ( talk) 01:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect 60 Hz. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 21#60 Hz until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 14:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
"This is used by some clocks to accurately maintain their time." How is time accurately maintained when frequency is variable? 122.151.210.84 ( talk) 12:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
The current text states, The general control algorithm for LFC was developed by Nathan Cohn in 1971, referencing just the Cohn's work. However, the LFC with ACE was known well before that (it is easy to find the descriptions that date to early 1960s). So a reliable third party source is needed to credit Cohn with this invention. Викидим ( talk) 22:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
The text around history of 50 vs 60 has been shortened over the past half year, so for reference below is what i originally compiled in August 2006. I have no real argument with the subsequent edits, but thought there might be some interest in some of the further details (and caveats) in the longer text. -- Psm 21:40, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Though many theories exist, and quite a few entertaining urban legends, there is little certitude in the details of the history of 60 Hz vs 50 Hz. What is known is that Westinghouse in the US decided on 60 Hz and AEG in Germany decided on 50 Hz, eventually leading to the world being mostly divided into two frequency camps. What is also well understood is why the frequencies ended up in the 50-60 range: direct current generators that came online in the late 1890:s were more stable at lower rotation speeds, and the flicker of lighting becomes noticeable somewhere below those levels. Westinghouse decided on 60 Hz before 1892 and AEG decided on 50 Hz by 1899. Tesla is believed to have had a key influence in the choice of 60 Hz by Westinghouse, but it may simply have been happenstance: Westinghouse won the World Fair in Chicago (1893) lighting contract, and after that the Niagara Falls project, both of which were 60 Hz. Maybe it simply "stuck" as corporate decisions are wont to do. AEGs choice of 50 Hz is by some thought to relate to a more "metric-friendly" number than 60, which would be peculiar since it is distinctly less efficient than 60Hz. It may also have been an intentional decision to be incompatible. In any case, a plethora of frequencies continued in broad use. For example, London in 1918 had 70 electric authorities with 24 different voltages and 10 different frequencies. It wasn't until after World War II with the advent of affordable electrical consumer goods that broader standards were enacted.
I heard a rumor that higher-frequency waves on the power lines would increase efficiency and decrease losses.
I'm skeptical, and Utility_frequency#400Hz seems to say the opposite. Which is true? — Omegatron 17:41, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
The History section is a bit repetitive. The second half of that section says pretty much the same as the first, only in slightly different words. Perhaps someone ought to tighten that up a bit. 203.191.193.38 06:38, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Because of capacitance between lines, and between lines and ground, a higher frequency means more losses in the transportation of the energy. Conversely, a higher frequency requires smaller transformers, that can be cheaper or more efficient than lower frequencies. So, you gain on one side, and lose on the other.
The stability chapter on the main page claims that the line frequency is adjusted so that "at the end of the day" we are within reasonable accuracy. Another website claims that the power companies will run the frequency .01Hz fast or slow to bring it back so that there are exactly 216,000 cycles each hour. Which is right? Who controls the frequency, and how accurately do they keep it? Should I assume each hour has the right number of cycle, or each day? I suppose this needs to be answered on a per country or region basis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.84.205.186 ( talk) 23:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi, i'm new to editing Wikipedia and stuff so i apologise if i post this at the wrong place. I happen to be color blind and actually had to check the world map with paint shop to spot which countries had different shades of blue. Would be nice if a version with more different colors could be posted.. For ex not yellow/green, or blue/that other blue.. it really sucks being color blind ;( —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.226.106.200 ( talk) 03:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Were the 25 Hz Grids also used for electric lighting purposes? Were the 25 Hz-grids not used for railway electrifications single phase or three phase grids? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.245.89 ( talk) 10:10, 15 May 2009 (UTC)
AEG (Allgemeine Elektrizitäts-Gesellschaft) Was founded by Walter Rathenau (later foreign minister) and some other german "money people". The goal of the company was to introduce Edisons electricity patents in Germany. They purchased/rented a licence from Edison to do that. But the company was not founded by Edison. Nevertheless the AEG soon left the "DC party" to join the AC technology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.221.240.67 ( talk) 15:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)
Yes, the same AP story got picked up by a zillion Web outlets. But I can't find anything on the NERC Web site. The NERC June newsletter doesn't even mention this. I don't doubt Seth Borenstein at AP got his facts right, but it woudl be very interesting to see NERC's explanation of what is planned, how the specific drifts in time were estimated, and what savings might be obtained by letting long-term frequency regulation relax. -- Wtshymanski ( talk) 14:37, 6 July 2011 (UTC)
The 50 and 60 hz sounds like an amplifier buzz. Waveform is square with lots of harmonics superimposed. I don't think it's accurate to generalize to the "hum" of a single type of device. Might it be better to post actual clean sinusoidal waves instead? Even the 400hz sound has lots of harmonics superimposed, pretty much drowning out the base 400hz wave. 66.114.93.6 ( talk) 21:27, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Revision history of Utility frequency (cur) (prev) 15:27, 30 March 2010 Wtshymanski (talk | contribs) (26,438 bytes) (Please stop. This is just wrong and irrelevant. Undid revision 352963354 by Wdl1961 (talk)) (undo)
pls have some degreed electrical engheadline Subject/headline preview: (→droop speed control: new sectionrs stop this Wdl1961 ( talk) 15:40, 30 March 2010 (UTC)
Is is really true to say that "Unless specified by the manufacturer to operate on both 50 and 60 Hz, appliances may not operate efficiently or even safely if used on anything other than the intended frequency."? Fair enough if it's something specifically designed to use AC, there could be a problem, but at a consumer level most electronic devices rectify and smooth the current before it reaches anything sensitive, so would it really be such an issue? AlexGordovani ( talk) 21:43, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
Added a small section in the Stability section outlining how the frequency of the system is restored after a load mismatch occurs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Acidmagic ( talk • contribs) 04:20, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
The history section states "Though many theories exist, and quite a few entertaining urban legends...", yet does not specify what any of these may be. Does anyone have the source that the writer quotes? I've tried to access the article via the institutional account we have at work, but our online access doesn't cover as far back as 1997. 197.87.229.61 ( talk) 16:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The tables have a column labled "cycles", a terminology that's been obsolete for more than 50 years. The description is "frequency", the unit of measure is "hertz", and the symbol for hertz is "Hz". Cycles doesn't belong in an encyclopedia except in an article about obsolete terminology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.7.62.214 ( talk) 00:30, 11 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, but if you take a look at the tables, the most recent one dates from 1945. In all likelihood, the column is labelled "Cycles" because that's the terminology used in the original tables from which the writer was copying. If the documents used as sources in this section were created during the time periods when "cycles" would have been the correct terminology, then it's still an acceptable use of the term. Perhaps we could just add a footnote to the effect that the original tables use dated terminology, and that the term has since been replaced by "frequency". Bird Tiger ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Cycles should at least be cycles per second or CPS as it used be indicated. It is not wrong to recreate the tables as they were in the original source. However, it is also completely acceptable to modernize it to Hz. Constant314 ( talk) 20:49, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The article says "The general control algorithm for LFC was developed by N. Cohn in 1971.[31]" Nonsense. The mechanics of LFC (as well as economic dispatch ED), including area control error ACE, were the subject of a noted book. https://www.amazon.com/Economic-Control-Interconnected-Systems-Kirchmayer/dp/B007CPV5W8 Economic Control of Interconnected Systems by L K Kirchmayer, Publisher: John Wiley and Sons (1959) ASIN: B007CPV5W8 Anorlunda ( talk) 20:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
I've reverted the removal of a secondary source and addition of this statement: "reducing the manual correction would reduce clock error overall, not increase it." The source doesn't say that, and I don't believe it's true. What it does say is that eliminating manual TEC will "not adversely affect frequency." The NERC proposal sacrifices long term clock error in favor of improving short term frequency swings. MSNBC accurately describes the situation and has the advantage of being a secondary source. Kendall-K1 ( talk) 15:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
No authoritative source is given for the claim that there is no technical reason to prefer one frequency over another. Without such a reference, the claim can't be interpreted as anything beyond an opinion or original research, neither of which are acceptable in Wikipedia articles.
While I don't have an authoritative source to the contrary at hand, it is self-evident that if different frequencies didn't have any advantages or disadvantages, utilities and equipment vendors would simply have all followed a defacto standard established by the first, rather than making a lot of different choices. The article even gives examples of reasons to prefer one or another frequency, such as the size of the required transformers, and lighting flicker.
The "citation needed" tag should not be removed until and unless the claim can be backed up by an authoritative reference. That's standard Wikipedia policy. It is NOT policy for editors to remove "citation needed" tags because of their personal opinions. -- Brouhaha ( talk) 06:23, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Utility frequency became more of an issue with the introduction of CRT based television. Early TV broadcasters usually synchronised their field rate to that of line current for convenience and because early TV designs tended to be very susceptible to "hum bars" which were subjectively less obtrusive when stationary. Therefore most countries choice of broadcast standard was defined (in part) by whichever mains frequency was more widespread locally. A field rate of 50 Hz (rather than 60 Hz) was significantly more economical in terms of bandwidth utilisation but at the expense of some viewers noticing slightly worse flicker. 2A00:23C6:7F93:1A00:E9FA:AC85:3B3D:E0F3 ( talk) 10:56, 7 June 2019 (UTC)
No mention of 16+2⁄3 Hz?, or the close-but-no-cigar 16.7 Hz? These were, and still are, widely used for electric railways, to avoid the difficulties of making powerful motors work with the higher frequencies of 50 or 60 Hz in the early days. See railway electrification systems. Distribution for these low-frequency systems was difficult and mostly avoided in favour of more local generation, but they're important systems and within scope here. Andy Dingley ( talk) 01:48, 19 June 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place to address the redirect 60 Hz. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 March 21#60 Hz until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. 𝟙𝟤𝟯𝟺𝐪𝑤𝒆𝓇𝟷𝟮𝟥𝟜𝓺𝔴𝕖𝖗𝟰 ( 𝗍𝗮𝘭𝙠) 14:37, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
"This is used by some clocks to accurately maintain their time." How is time accurately maintained when frequency is variable? 122.151.210.84 ( talk) 12:26, 19 July 2023 (UTC)
The current text states, The general control algorithm for LFC was developed by Nathan Cohn in 1971, referencing just the Cohn's work. However, the LFC with ACE was known well before that (it is easy to find the descriptions that date to early 1960s). So a reliable third party source is needed to credit Cohn with this invention. Викидим ( talk) 22:45, 25 March 2023 (UTC)