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![]() | This article contains a translation of Ushuaia from es.wikipedia. ( 759196731 et seq.) |
Ushuaia is not the Southernmost city in the world, that dubious honor belongs to Puerto Williams, which is southeast of Ushuaia across the Beagle Channel.
However, for tourism purposes, Ushuaia bills itself as the southermost city on Earth, and it is thus that many people actually believe it to be so.
Is there a Spanish word for town? SqueakBox 16:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Huskermax5 ( talk) 05:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC) PW and Ushusia both have comercial airports though but Ushuaia is the big city and PW is south of it. Is PW a city? No is it a town most certainly?
Ushuaia is certainly the world's southernmost city, since its population is north of 50,000. I think we have to accept Argentine usage in this case: Ushuaia has a city government and is also the provincial capital. Puerto Williams by contrast is scarcely even a town, more of a village (2400 people), and all other more southerly contenders are reckoned in the dozens of people. I say leave the usage. Erik 18:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC
I would agree to the differentiation between Ushuaia and Puerto Williams, since Ushuaia has organized transportation, independent hospital and institutions of higher learning. All these fit the classification of City, as wikipedia states in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City, that a City is "an urban settlement with a particularly important status which differentiates it from a town."
Puerto Williams should be considered the southernmost town, although it is mainly made up of Naval personnel, and Ushuaia should be considered the southernmost City.
UNINDENT
I have no beef on either side of this content dispute, it seems a reliable cite to me. As there is a dispute I've added a comment on the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Justin talk 21:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
What is a city or a town or a hamlet should not be defined in Wikipedia. Let another decide about it. And they dit it: See Ushuaia ya no será la ciudad más austral del mundo. Chileans and Argentines decided that Puerto Williams IS the southernmost city of the world:
-- Keysanger ( talk) 23:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This newspaper article is incorrect. Please see http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html and http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=101904
The Argentine Congress said that the transfer of the slogan isn't mentioned in the official records of the Committee meeting and that it wasn't even in the topics to be discussed. It's unfortunate that this false information was published in an Argentine newspaper. In any case, this is only related to the slogan of "southernmost city" and not to the geographical fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.236.99 ( talk) 15:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This is somewhat debatable, as we should clearly define what constitutes a city. If we were to consider it in terms of population, Punta Arenas with 120,000 people is by far the largest city in the entire Patagonian Region, after the more northerly Argentine cities of Neuquén and Comodoro Rivadavia. Likeminas ( talk) 18:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Seems that the Clarin newspaper article that I went to was indeed refuted by the lower house of the Arg congress. Then the reference settling this argument should only be the Chilean governments definition of a city, or cuidad, as been a centre of population with more than 5000 inhabitants, as I first referenced here in Jan 09. But then again that reference is a wiki article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City#Chile) which claims that Chile defines a city as more than 5000, but there is no reference to back this up, only a statement that Chile does so. We should find a government publication which actually backs this up because if Chile defines a city as one having more than ,say 1000, then the Ushuaia article is incorrect, if it is actually more than 5000 population then this Ushuaia article is correct. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 05:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
From the article: "Some tours also visit the Lighthouse at the End of the World, made famous by Jules Verne in the novel of the same name." -- I've been to Ushuaia and I visited this lighthouse, I'm just wandering if this lighthouse really is the one Jules Verne was referring to. If it is so (if it is confirmed, with sources, the complete package), maybe a link to the Lighthouse at the End of the World should be provided in this paragraph, and at the novel's article a link pointing to this article as a reference to the lighthouse Jules Verne was writing about in the novel. Anyone knows if this is confirmed? -- A/B 'Shipper 女 (talk) 13:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this belongs in the article, but if we want to include references to culture, it's worth mentioning that the film Happy Together features the lighthouse at Ushuaia rather prominently.
Thanks to those who helped sort this one out, I have tried sorting the mess of the talk pages left behind, while the histories are a bit confused at least the talk pages are now coherent, SqueakBox 13:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
"64 000 inhabitants" Font?
The article says "local birds, penguins and seawolves on the islands in the Beagle Channel." I'm guessing "seawolves" is a reference to Orca, not to Seawolf (fish). I've changed the article to reflect this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SethML ( talk • contribs) 05:35, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Will the anonymous editor please correct PW? It's in Chile! I don't want to revert all your edits, but I will unless this is fixed. Look at an atlas. Archernewland 20:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following pic because it was embedded, a 4MB size is not reasonable, please help by making a thumb or link to the proper picture.
ushu9.jpg
Callmeback ( talk) 10:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi 201.255.236.99,
you insist to write "it is".
In my opinion and the opinion of the "comite de frontera" "it is not"
We should explain to the reader what is going on with the name: what, who, where, etc. It is a very controversial statement to say "it is". Of course the "comite de Frontera" don't think so and the resolution of a chamber of deputies is very nebulous. And it is the resolution of a comitee of the chamber, not the chamber. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keysanger ( talk • contribs) 22:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The newspaper article is incorrect. I provided two different sources that refute the Clarín article. I think you should include a direct reference to the mentioned "Comité de Frontera" resolution. Also, as I said before, this doesn't change the fact that Ushuaia is the southernmost city. http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=101904 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.236.99 ( talk) 04:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
That's fine and logical but only to an degree since Puerto Williams is still there in isla navarino and still has some 2000 people some of who are military personnel and others who are permanent working as fishermen and in sheep farms. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 05:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
All the references plus the text in the section "History of settlement" point towards the first Europeans in the area to be British missionaries who were engaged in a religious mission to take Christianity to the local long term inhabitants, Yaman or Selk’nam peoples. So it is not really correct to call these missionaries 'colonists' since their long term objectives were not really consistent with a colonial presence and they left the area once most of the Selknam people died off, mainly due to European diseases Chuckarg33 ( talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be some contradiction in the references used as to what the people of Ushuaia were actually called or named. In tierra del fuego the Ona is the accepted name for the native population but then some authors use Selk’nam for those around Ushuaia while others authors use Yámana. Shouldn't the article use only one name for those inhabitants of Ushuaia pre-European arrivals? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
RE sentence in History section: "That same year, the Argentine President Julio Argentino Roca sought to increase the Argentine presence by promoting establishment of a penal colony for re-offenders, modeled after Tasmania, Australia."
When I first wrote that History section I added in a motive for Pt Roca's establishing of a penal colony but now that I've done more edits I realize that it was a POV push which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Therefore I edited out the previous sentence, but editors changed it back. I think that if it is to stay that then we need a reference to back it up so as to avoid own POV. All the reference says is:"DECRETO DE JULIO A. ROCA FIJANDO EN TIERRA DEL FUEGO LA CÁRCEL DE REINCIDENTES. La Sub-prefectura de Bahía Thetis vuelve a Ushuaia." ie by google: "ACT OF JULY A. ROCA AFFIRMING IN TIERRA DEL FUEGO prison recidivism. The Sub-prefecture Thetis Bay back to Ushuaia." but I'm sure that a "decreto" is an "executive order" by a president. The reference www.tierradelfuego.org.ar/historia/ushuaia does mention that the penal colony was modeled after Tasmania but not what the intentions of President Roca were, beyond sending the worst criminals to Ushuaia Chuckarg33 ( talk) 09:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
It depends on what you define as a city. Does it have to have a certain population? Does it have to be a major centre? etc, etc. For example, if you define a city as having a population over 1 million, then the title of the world's southern most city belongs to Melbourne, Australia.-- Just James 03:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Spanner into..... Stanley, capital of the Falklands, has about 2000 residents and its a city and capital city at that! So why not Puerto Williams? because as far as we can see Chile considers a 'City' an urban populated area with more than 5000, although the reference for this is Wiki in Spanish so we can't really be certain. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 09:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, just saw this posted on the reliable source page as a dispute. Is the nut of this disagreement the claim that it's the southernmost city? I want to be clear about what folks are disagreeing over. Does whoever disagrees with this statement have another source showing that some other city is farther south, and if so can you bring it forward? Thanks. — e. ripley\ talk 21:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
UNINDENT
As I have previously pointed out, I have no vested interest in the debate. I'm neither Argentine nor Chilean. The statement that Ushuaia is the southernmost city is verified by a reliable source. According to wiki policies that statement is acceptable, especially since the edit acknowledges that there are settlements further South. The only objection I can see is personal preference but the arguments put forward to preclude their inclusion are original research and specifically excluded by wiki policies. Unless someone can put forward a proper justfication for a change based upon a reasonable intepretation of policy or some compromise wording that avoids nationalist sensitivities then it should stay. I do suggest that the practise of removing what is acknowledged to be a reliable source to replace it with a dubious tag should stop forthwith - it is simply being disruptive. Justin talk 08:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
OUTDENT
E. Ripley is quite correct. The sentence is not in the least ambiguous; it states that there are settlements farther south, but that Ushuaia is the southernmost [settlement] of any [significant] size. This is how anyone fluent in English would read it. Also, regarding this edit I would prefer that you not edit *my* remarks. Elphion ( talk) 21:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I have put once again the dubious tag in the article text because of the following:
(SNIP -- accidentally duplicated material deleted) Elphion ( talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I participated in this debate not long, ago so if you guys don’t mind, I will post what I think here.
Of any size? Punta Arenas is way bigger than Ushuaia. Would that make it the southernmost city? Puerto Williams is of a size, yet, is south Ushuaia. That line needs to be either removed or written in a non-ambiguous way.
Finally, I don’t think this is clear cut, and as Dentren is suggesting, I think the article should acknowledge (and also to comply with NPOV) that Ushuaia, although, reckoned as the southernmost city by some, is certainly not considered to be so by all.
Likeminas ( talk) 19:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
"Smaller settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size." Obviously this sentence can't stay. Up to now we only have that wiki entry that says that Chile considered an urban settlement of more that 5000 people as a City or 'Ciudad'. Maybe someone can find a UN classification for a City? Even so, imo, a better way to phrase this is to say that "Ushuaia has long been called the world southernmost City, although today there are small settlements further south which could also be called 'Sourthernmost City'." or words to that effect. imho off course!
Chuckarg33 (
talk)
06:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
References
I was asked - User talk:Davewild#Ushuaia - to have a look at this dispute and as there was some clear edit warring going on, with both parties skirting very close to WP:3RR and being blocked, I have fully protected the article for 3 days (without endorsing any version of the article). This content dispute has clearly been going on for quite a while so all parties, including those who were involved earlier if possible, should attempt to agree what the wording of the intro should be (based on policy such as WP:Neutral Point of View and WP:Verifiability). If consensus has been reached earlier then let me know and I will remove the protection.
On the actual issue itself in my opinion the wording needs to be based on what reliable sources say. Do all sources says Ushuaia is the southernmost city? What do third party (non Argentine or Chilean) reliable sources say? etc. If there is disagreement in the sources then the wording needs to reflect this with appropriate weight to the quantity and quality of the sources. Davewild ( talk) 21:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Instead of engaging in a discussion about the dubious tag, we should concentrate on the discussion from wich it originated. If we reach a consensus then the tag will be unnesesary. I invite you tio take a look at the article Atacama desert to see how the claim of "being the dryest desert" was put forward in the article. A simmilar solution would be desirable for the Ushuaia article. The text in parenthesis is if not ambiguous hart to understand because it does not say explicit what kind of settlement Ushuaua the southernmost. I the current version sayinfg that ushuaia is called this parenthesis is not nesesary any longer. I propose to remove it. Dentren | Talk 11:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I think changing the parenthesis sentence to make it more specific as
Elphion suggests, will certainly clear out the ambiguousness of saying of any size.
The sentence below would be definitely an improvement:
Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants.
Likeminas (
talk)
14:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
What exactly is wrong with the previous compromise edit? Justin talk 16:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and the southernmost city in the world. (Some very small settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size.)[1]
Issue nr | Issue | Proposed change |
---|---|---|
1 | (Smaller settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size.) | remove this sentence or reformulate to Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants. (as proposed by linkeminas) |
2 | "NYT" citation | put it back to back the statement that Ushuaia is considered/called the southernmost city |
3 | Tourism section | add sentence explaining the importance of being the southernmost city for tourism |
4 | Vandalism/Edit wars | add this <!--Do not edit the lead of this article regarding ushuaia status as the southernmost city in the world without first discussing it on Talk. Any substantial changes without consensus on Talk may be reverted.--> to the entrance. |
Dentren | Talk 15:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
a) NYT citation needs to be included. b) Ushuaia is the southernmost city, that needs to be stated. What is proposed is weasel words and unneccessary. I have no objection to pointing out that there are other settlments such as Puerto Williams further south. c) No objection to points 3 or 4. I have to say that if you'd come here with this sort of proposal before it would have avoided generating unnecessary heat and light. Justin talk 17:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have done some searching for sources to inform this discussion and found the following sources describing places as southernmost city in the world:-
I could not personally find any source that comes out unambiguously to say Puerto Williams is the southernmost city however an article (I found offline) in The Sunday Times on 21 December 2008 entitled "JOURNEY TO THE END OF THE EARTH" provides a good discussion of the relative merits of both Ushuaia and Puerto Williams (discussing what makes a place a city). There are also quite a few articles that mention Puerto Williams claim but also mentioning Ushuaia at the same time. This Independent article describes Puerto Williams as "a city proud of its "most southerly town in the world" title" which is really confusing for this discussion! I also found a few articles describing Puerto Williams as the most southerly town in the world.
These sources are not exhaustive by any means especially for Ushuaia's claim. I hope these sources are of some use in deciding what the wording should be and could used for verification of claims if needed. Davewild ( talk) 17:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Punta Arenas Coordinates: 53°10′S 70°56′W Ushuaia Coordinates: 54°48′S 68°18′W
Nice to see some attempt to refer to reliable sources. Simply looking at a map shows that Punta Arenas is North of Ushuaia. Even Chile does not define Puerto Williams as a city - the articles you've mentioned don't make that claim. Can we use a bit of common sense please? Justin talk 22:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the claim that PW is not considered a city by Chilean standards I would like to have a citation on that to believe it because it could contradict Chilean policies regarding tourism and geopolitics in PW.
Here there are some links to Chilean media refering to it as the southernmost city. [4] 2005.] [5] and scientific articles refering to it as a city [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] also in Cabo de Hornos commune (of wich Pw is the capital) homepage PW is refered as a city. [11] I did the following search in google searching only for pages in English.
Ushuaia is of course leading but that doent make it the southernmost city. This reflacts that there is clearly diferent views on which is the southernmost city. Wikipedia should have neutral point of view, to reach that the article can not simple state that Ushuaua "is", but can instead state that U. "is called", "sometimes considered" or "often considered". Dentren | Talk 09:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Meaningless: "southernmost city" ushuaia "punta arenas" 8310 Just look at the first result (spoiler: Ushuaia is southernmost and it is a .cl domain) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.223.193 ( talk) 12:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Likeminas ( talk) 16:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia can not favour a city with the title "the southernmost city". And there are clearly different views of the issue. We abstain to decide and let the reader the facts and meanings.
I think that the solution given in Puerto Williams should be applied to Ushuaia (20.5.2009):
For Ushuaia:
Then a passage with some briefly explain follows:
-- Keysanger ( talk) 14:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and the southernmost city of its size in the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.223.193 ( talk) 15:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and is widely regarded as the southernmost city in the world. Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants.
That seems more accurate than the current proposals, which to my mind seem to lend undue weight to arguments in favour of Puerto Williams. Those arguments seem to be based solely on the Chilean authorities reclassifying PW as a city to boost the tourist trade. Wikipedia exists to provide information, its not a booster for the Chilean tourist industry. Justin talk 00:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
So while some in Chile may want to start promoting PW with the southernmost city slogan, the general idea one gets from reading Chilean documents is that the urban centre Puerto Williams is too small to be considered a City by Chile, a fact that should be determining here in this 'sourthernmost city' discussion. So this Proposal 3 seems the best option -plus reducing the size of that introduction could also help to make the article more presentable. Puerto Williams could always be described as the "southernmost Town in the World" surely? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 19:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego. It is widely regarded as the southernmost city in the world, though that description is occasionally applied also attributed to
Punta Arenas or
Puerto Williams in Chile.
(I would like to divide the first sentence, since the notability of Ushuaia in no way depends on being southernmost city. And as 201.255.223.193 points out, Punta Arenas somehow fell out of consideration.) Elphion ( talk) 03:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
(Changed "applied also" to "attributed", per E. Ripley's better formulation.) Elphion ( talk) 03:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego. It is commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world, though that description is occasionally attributed to Punta Arenas or Puerto Williams in Chile. Dentren | Talk 15:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
The only difference between Proposals 4 and 5 is "widely" (4) vs "commonly" (5)
I just discover this "new" discussion. As an argentine maybe I should not vote on this one but is not Punta Arenas almost 200 km North of Ushuaia ? And is not almost half Puerto Williams buildings and personel military ? (may be wrong) --
Jor70 (
talk)
17:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
The given reference doesn't fit the statement.
The reference is a to a meeting of the "COMISIONES DE TURISMO Y DE DEFENSA NACIONAL" (what a mix!), and they edited a "Proyecto de resolución" (not a resolution), that should declare:
The page does not show any resolution and the proyect only "express preocupation" and nothing more. That is right so, then the Argentine Congress could not declare which is the southernmost city of the world.
So I corrected the text.
-- Keysanger ( talk) 13:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I think you misread the text here. The Camara de diputados (Lower House) expressed preoccupation about the "fallacious" or "treacherous" (falaz) information in that newspaper. Also a "Resuelve:" specifically means a "Resolution by the Lower House" (ie Diputados). Hence I personally don't agree with the need for another citation, since the lower house has actually refuted or called that information in Clarin "falaz" (fallacious or treacherous). It is rather strong language to use in condemnation of a newspaper article. Note also that nothing more was said about this issue in Clarin or any other newspaper. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 14:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
This should settle this ongoing controversy of whether or not Puerto Williams is a City or just a Town:
Entidad Urbana. Conjunto de viviendas concentradas con más de 2.000 habitantes, o entre 1.001 y 2.000 habitantes, con el 50% o más de su población económicamente activa, dedicada a actividades secundarias y/o terciarias. Excepcionalmente, los centros que cumplen funciones de turismo y recreación con más de 250 viviendas concentradas y que no alcanzan el requisito de población se consideran urbanos. Ciudad (Cd). Entidad urbana que posee más de 5.000 habitantes. Pueblo (Pb). Entidad urbana con una población que fluctúa entre 2.001 y 5.000 habitantes, o entre 1.001 y 2.000 habitantes, con el 50% o más de su población económicamente activa dedicada a actividades secundarias y/o terciarias. Excepcionalmente se asimilan a pueblo los centros poblados, que cumplen funciones de turismo y recreación con más de 250 viviendas concentradas y que no alcancen el requisito de población.
This is copied direct from http://www.ine.cl/canales/chile_estadistico/territorio/division_politico_administrativa/pdf/dpa2001.pdf (hope copyright isn't an issue here?)
From the above it is clear that Puerto Williams is only just considered an 'urban entity' with its 2500 odd residents. Ushuaia passes this threshold by some 60.000 odd residents.
Note that the 2007 report also follows this rule by calling Pica, with 2642 people, a Town ie Pueblo Chuckarg33 ( talk) 15:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Re from 2002 census:
COMUNA CUT Entidad Urbana Categoría Superficie Urbana Censal ( Km²) Población Viviendas Punta Arenas 12101 Punta Arenas Cd 39,03 116.005 35.389 Cabo de Hornos 12201 Puerto Williams Pb 1,19 1.952 561 Porvenir 12301 Porvenir Pb 2,63 4.734 1.377 Natales 12401 Puerto Natales Cd 5,57 16.978 5.763
Obviously Pb is Pueblo or Town, Cd is Ciudad or City.
This should settle this argument for good, maybe?? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 15:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Can someone tidy up the References throughout the article? I'm guilty of several poorly built ones but I'm not all that confident about doing it properly. Several are repeated unfortunately and its generally messy. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 16:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Re this new entry:
"Punta Arenas, Chile, is also sometimes considered the southernmost city. While north of Ushuaia, it has a considerably larger population."
Are not both Punta Arenas and Ushuaia considered 'Cities', or defined as as City by both countries? so then this sentence really isn't necessary here. Its seems to be a personal opinion too, does it not? not NPOV.
Please add any thoughts here, otherwise I think the words above should be deleted from wikipedia. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 06:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually I should add why these references aren't all that good:
Maybe the solution is to say in the Ushuaia article that Ushuaia is usually considered the 'southernmost city' in the world, as in the current introduction, and in the Punta Arenas article that 'Punta Arenas is sometimes considered the southernmost city in the world', since its 'sometimes' not 'always'. This because the article here is about Ushuaia and not about which city is the southernmost one. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 04:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, I've started an article Southernmost City in the World to take most of the arguing over there, and hopefully the paragraph here on 'Southernmost city' to if people agree to do that. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 06:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Because I read that the southernmost issue is "disputed" in the article of
Puerto Williams, I guess it's fair to include it here too. I proceed then as I hope no feelings could be hurt.
Sobreira
(parlez)
08:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Does the gay marriage thing really belong here? I mean, really, it's a tiny little town with nothing but blue sea and sky between it and Antarctica. Does every place on Earth need a discussion of gay marriage in Wikipedia?? Based on teh gays in my office, I am sure there are dozens of other online resources gays can access which have ad nauseum discussions of every detail of gay legal rights in Ushuaia and every other place imaginable. I have removed it due to complete lack of relevance. 24.17.192.214 ( talk) 04:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The "agreement" that was disavowed by Argentina must be presented to the reader. It is a relevant and well referenced fact. Argentina has often disavowed his treaties, anyway there must be comunicated to the reader (the pact, I mean) --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 19:12, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html and http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=101904
I see we have a impasse regarding the importance of the fact that there has been an agreement about the title "the southermeost city of the world" and that this agreement has been broken by one side. I will start an Third opinion or an RfC about this case. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Would you agree to move the information out from the lede into the main article?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Why review the consensus?
190.17.69.249 ( talk) 12:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I think it is relevant and I think that the current version of the article is driven more by a commercial than by an encyclopedic interest.
I assume that you aren't Elphion, and that in this case a third opinion is not possible. Are you Elphion?. --Best regards,
Keysanger (
what?)
12:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Regarding your "it is irrelevant", I want to remember that according to WP:NPOV:
Your version of the issue doesn't include the agreement. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 12:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Addition: It's not even clear that Ushuaia's slogan came up in the discussions. It's not germane to the topic the commission was negotiating, and in their report to the Chamber of Deputies (link above) the commissioners flatly deny it. Perhaps this was a political denial; but perhaps also El Clarín was indulging in yellow journalism. Hard to know at this point. Whatever the truth, I've yet to see any evidence that the government agreed to such a change. -- Elphion ( talk) 19:08, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
We have a long standing discussion about whether is it relevant or irrelevant the background information about "the southernmost city in the world". Should the article include this information?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 21:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand why Keysanger has taken this to RfC already, as he has yet to answer the points raised above, and has misrepresented the incident. In short: of his three references, the first is an article in El Clarín reporting that the commission agreed to transfer the title from Ushuaia to Puerto Williams, but the second two references report official denials that the matter was even discussed. So despite Keysanger's claim, there was certainly no agreement on the title. The first reference represents false reporting by Clarín to try to derail the real negotiations that had taken place (attempting to set up new arrangements for the peaceful administration of the border between Argentina and Chile, among other things by arranging for peaceful military transport of Chilean forces across Tierra del Fuego see below). Keysanger is correct that this is correctly (if elliptically) described in the article
Puerto Williams, and I have suggested that something similar be added to the Tourism section of
Ushuaia, or perhaps preferably that it be removed to the article
Southernmost settlements, which already has a section on the title "Southernmost City of the World" and is probably the right place to put this. --
Elphion (
talk)
01:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
There are two separate matters. And both have been discussed previously. The first is Ushuaia's condition as the southernmost city in the world, reflected in the beginning of the article (with sources). Note that it has already been agreed that it may not be universally accepted that Puerto Williams is not a city, so the wording "commonly regarded" was used. The other is the controversy of whether Argentina handed over the slogan that has caracterised Ushuaia in favor of Puerto Williams. This is also mentioned in the article. What I consider irrelevant about the controversy is that, no matter what the outcome is, it won't magically make Puerto Williams known as the southernmost city. Otherwise, Wikipedia would be a propaganda organ. 190.17.69.249 ( talk) 14:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) I just noticed that the SCOTW claim and some of its history it already included in this article (under Geography). In light of this, what specific changes to the current text do you think would be advisable? -- Elphion ( talk) 16:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we have enough feedback from the community and it is overwhelming for the inclusion of the background of the dispute in the lede. I support ...commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world (a title disputed by Puerto Williams). --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 12:09, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
There is an inconsistency. In the text and the yearly extreme, the coldest temperate is -21C (-5.8F), but in the month of July in the table the record low is -25.1C (-13.2F). I can't read the original sources in Spanish though. Lies from the tablecloth ( talk) 02:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
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I propose that the "Symbols" section of this article should be removed. That information belongs in (and is already in) the info-box, rather than its own section of the article.
Alatorr ( talk) 04:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
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While it’s true that the /ʃ/ exists in Rioplatense Spanish, Ushuaia is pronounced /u’swaja/ nonetheless by Argentines. 190.19.144.181 ( talk) 04:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
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![]() | This article contains a translation of Ushuaia from es.wikipedia. ( 759196731 et seq.) |
Ushuaia is not the Southernmost city in the world, that dubious honor belongs to Puerto Williams, which is southeast of Ushuaia across the Beagle Channel.
However, for tourism purposes, Ushuaia bills itself as the southermost city on Earth, and it is thus that many people actually believe it to be so.
Is there a Spanish word for town? SqueakBox 16:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
-- Huskermax5 ( talk) 05:55, 27 July 2020 (UTC) PW and Ushusia both have comercial airports though but Ushuaia is the big city and PW is south of it. Is PW a city? No is it a town most certainly?
Ushuaia is certainly the world's southernmost city, since its population is north of 50,000. I think we have to accept Argentine usage in this case: Ushuaia has a city government and is also the provincial capital. Puerto Williams by contrast is scarcely even a town, more of a village (2400 people), and all other more southerly contenders are reckoned in the dozens of people. I say leave the usage. Erik 18:19, 28 September 2007 (UTC
I would agree to the differentiation between Ushuaia and Puerto Williams, since Ushuaia has organized transportation, independent hospital and institutions of higher learning. All these fit the classification of City, as wikipedia states in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City, that a City is "an urban settlement with a particularly important status which differentiates it from a town."
Puerto Williams should be considered the southernmost town, although it is mainly made up of Naval personnel, and Ushuaia should be considered the southernmost City.
UNINDENT
I have no beef on either side of this content dispute, it seems a reliable cite to me. As there is a dispute I've added a comment on the Reliable Sources noticeboard. Justin talk 21:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
What is a city or a town or a hamlet should not be defined in Wikipedia. Let another decide about it. And they dit it: See Ushuaia ya no será la ciudad más austral del mundo. Chileans and Argentines decided that Puerto Williams IS the southernmost city of the world:
-- Keysanger ( talk) 23:02, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
This newspaper article is incorrect. Please see http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html and http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=101904
The Argentine Congress said that the transfer of the slogan isn't mentioned in the official records of the Committee meeting and that it wasn't even in the topics to be discussed. It's unfortunate that this false information was published in an Argentine newspaper. In any case, this is only related to the slogan of "southernmost city" and not to the geographical fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.236.99 ( talk) 15:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This is somewhat debatable, as we should clearly define what constitutes a city. If we were to consider it in terms of population, Punta Arenas with 120,000 people is by far the largest city in the entire Patagonian Region, after the more northerly Argentine cities of Neuquén and Comodoro Rivadavia. Likeminas ( talk) 18:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)
Seems that the Clarin newspaper article that I went to was indeed refuted by the lower house of the Arg congress. Then the reference settling this argument should only be the Chilean governments definition of a city, or cuidad, as been a centre of population with more than 5000 inhabitants, as I first referenced here in Jan 09. But then again that reference is a wiki article ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City#Chile) which claims that Chile defines a city as more than 5000, but there is no reference to back this up, only a statement that Chile does so. We should find a government publication which actually backs this up because if Chile defines a city as one having more than ,say 1000, then the Ushuaia article is incorrect, if it is actually more than 5000 population then this Ushuaia article is correct. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 05:47, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
From the article: "Some tours also visit the Lighthouse at the End of the World, made famous by Jules Verne in the novel of the same name." -- I've been to Ushuaia and I visited this lighthouse, I'm just wandering if this lighthouse really is the one Jules Verne was referring to. If it is so (if it is confirmed, with sources, the complete package), maybe a link to the Lighthouse at the End of the World should be provided in this paragraph, and at the novel's article a link pointing to this article as a reference to the lighthouse Jules Verne was writing about in the novel. Anyone knows if this is confirmed? -- A/B 'Shipper 女 (talk) 13:33, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this belongs in the article, but if we want to include references to culture, it's worth mentioning that the film Happy Together features the lighthouse at Ushuaia rather prominently.
Thanks to those who helped sort this one out, I have tried sorting the mess of the talk pages left behind, while the histories are a bit confused at least the talk pages are now coherent, SqueakBox 13:59, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
"64 000 inhabitants" Font?
The article says "local birds, penguins and seawolves on the islands in the Beagle Channel." I'm guessing "seawolves" is a reference to Orca, not to Seawolf (fish). I've changed the article to reflect this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SethML ( talk • contribs) 05:35, August 21, 2007 (UTC).
Will the anonymous editor please correct PW? It's in Chile! I don't want to revert all your edits, but I will unless this is fixed. Look at an atlas. Archernewland 20:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I removed the following pic because it was embedded, a 4MB size is not reasonable, please help by making a thumb or link to the proper picture.
ushu9.jpg
Callmeback ( talk) 10:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
Hi 201.255.236.99,
you insist to write "it is".
In my opinion and the opinion of the "comite de frontera" "it is not"
We should explain to the reader what is going on with the name: what, who, where, etc. It is a very controversial statement to say "it is". Of course the "comite de Frontera" don't think so and the resolution of a chamber of deputies is very nebulous. And it is the resolution of a comitee of the chamber, not the chamber. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keysanger ( talk • contribs) 22:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The newspaper article is incorrect. I provided two different sources that refute the Clarín article. I think you should include a direct reference to the mentioned "Comité de Frontera" resolution. Also, as I said before, this doesn't change the fact that Ushuaia is the southernmost city. http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=101904 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.236.99 ( talk) 04:24, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
That's fine and logical but only to an degree since Puerto Williams is still there in isla navarino and still has some 2000 people some of who are military personnel and others who are permanent working as fishermen and in sheep farms. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 05:13, 22 April 2009 (UTC)
All the references plus the text in the section "History of settlement" point towards the first Europeans in the area to be British missionaries who were engaged in a religious mission to take Christianity to the local long term inhabitants, Yaman or Selk’nam peoples. So it is not really correct to call these missionaries 'colonists' since their long term objectives were not really consistent with a colonial presence and they left the area once most of the Selknam people died off, mainly due to European diseases Chuckarg33 ( talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
There seems to be some contradiction in the references used as to what the people of Ushuaia were actually called or named. In tierra del fuego the Ona is the accepted name for the native population but then some authors use Selk’nam for those around Ushuaia while others authors use Yámana. Shouldn't the article use only one name for those inhabitants of Ushuaia pre-European arrivals? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 16:39, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
RE sentence in History section: "That same year, the Argentine President Julio Argentino Roca sought to increase the Argentine presence by promoting establishment of a penal colony for re-offenders, modeled after Tasmania, Australia."
When I first wrote that History section I added in a motive for Pt Roca's establishing of a penal colony but now that I've done more edits I realize that it was a POV push which doesn't belong in Wikipedia. Therefore I edited out the previous sentence, but editors changed it back. I think that if it is to stay that then we need a reference to back it up so as to avoid own POV. All the reference says is:"DECRETO DE JULIO A. ROCA FIJANDO EN TIERRA DEL FUEGO LA CÁRCEL DE REINCIDENTES. La Sub-prefectura de Bahía Thetis vuelve a Ushuaia." ie by google: "ACT OF JULY A. ROCA AFFIRMING IN TIERRA DEL FUEGO prison recidivism. The Sub-prefecture Thetis Bay back to Ushuaia." but I'm sure that a "decreto" is an "executive order" by a president. The reference www.tierradelfuego.org.ar/historia/ushuaia does mention that the penal colony was modeled after Tasmania but not what the intentions of President Roca were, beyond sending the worst criminals to Ushuaia Chuckarg33 ( talk) 09:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
It depends on what you define as a city. Does it have to have a certain population? Does it have to be a major centre? etc, etc. For example, if you define a city as having a population over 1 million, then the title of the world's southern most city belongs to Melbourne, Australia.-- Just James 03:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Spanner into..... Stanley, capital of the Falklands, has about 2000 residents and its a city and capital city at that! So why not Puerto Williams? because as far as we can see Chile considers a 'City' an urban populated area with more than 5000, although the reference for this is Wiki in Spanish so we can't really be certain. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 09:14, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Hi all, just saw this posted on the reliable source page as a dispute. Is the nut of this disagreement the claim that it's the southernmost city? I want to be clear about what folks are disagreeing over. Does whoever disagrees with this statement have another source showing that some other city is farther south, and if so can you bring it forward? Thanks. — e. ripley\ talk 21:46, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
UNINDENT
As I have previously pointed out, I have no vested interest in the debate. I'm neither Argentine nor Chilean. The statement that Ushuaia is the southernmost city is verified by a reliable source. According to wiki policies that statement is acceptable, especially since the edit acknowledges that there are settlements further South. The only objection I can see is personal preference but the arguments put forward to preclude their inclusion are original research and specifically excluded by wiki policies. Unless someone can put forward a proper justfication for a change based upon a reasonable intepretation of policy or some compromise wording that avoids nationalist sensitivities then it should stay. I do suggest that the practise of removing what is acknowledged to be a reliable source to replace it with a dubious tag should stop forthwith - it is simply being disruptive. Justin talk 08:19, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
OUTDENT
E. Ripley is quite correct. The sentence is not in the least ambiguous; it states that there are settlements farther south, but that Ushuaia is the southernmost [settlement] of any [significant] size. This is how anyone fluent in English would read it. Also, regarding this edit I would prefer that you not edit *my* remarks. Elphion ( talk) 21:19, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
I have put once again the dubious tag in the article text because of the following:
(SNIP -- accidentally duplicated material deleted) Elphion ( talk) 21:24, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I participated in this debate not long, ago so if you guys don’t mind, I will post what I think here.
Of any size? Punta Arenas is way bigger than Ushuaia. Would that make it the southernmost city? Puerto Williams is of a size, yet, is south Ushuaia. That line needs to be either removed or written in a non-ambiguous way.
Finally, I don’t think this is clear cut, and as Dentren is suggesting, I think the article should acknowledge (and also to comply with NPOV) that Ushuaia, although, reckoned as the southernmost city by some, is certainly not considered to be so by all.
Likeminas ( talk) 19:07, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
"Smaller settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size." Obviously this sentence can't stay. Up to now we only have that wiki entry that says that Chile considered an urban settlement of more that 5000 people as a City or 'Ciudad'. Maybe someone can find a UN classification for a City? Even so, imo, a better way to phrase this is to say that "Ushuaia has long been called the world southernmost City, although today there are small settlements further south which could also be called 'Sourthernmost City'." or words to that effect. imho off course!
Chuckarg33 (
talk)
06:03, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
References
I was asked - User talk:Davewild#Ushuaia - to have a look at this dispute and as there was some clear edit warring going on, with both parties skirting very close to WP:3RR and being blocked, I have fully protected the article for 3 days (without endorsing any version of the article). This content dispute has clearly been going on for quite a while so all parties, including those who were involved earlier if possible, should attempt to agree what the wording of the intro should be (based on policy such as WP:Neutral Point of View and WP:Verifiability). If consensus has been reached earlier then let me know and I will remove the protection.
On the actual issue itself in my opinion the wording needs to be based on what reliable sources say. Do all sources says Ushuaia is the southernmost city? What do third party (non Argentine or Chilean) reliable sources say? etc. If there is disagreement in the sources then the wording needs to reflect this with appropriate weight to the quantity and quality of the sources. Davewild ( talk) 21:06, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
Instead of engaging in a discussion about the dubious tag, we should concentrate on the discussion from wich it originated. If we reach a consensus then the tag will be unnesesary. I invite you tio take a look at the article Atacama desert to see how the claim of "being the dryest desert" was put forward in the article. A simmilar solution would be desirable for the Ushuaia article. The text in parenthesis is if not ambiguous hart to understand because it does not say explicit what kind of settlement Ushuaua the southernmost. I the current version sayinfg that ushuaia is called this parenthesis is not nesesary any longer. I propose to remove it. Dentren | Talk 11:04, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I think changing the parenthesis sentence to make it more specific as
Elphion suggests, will certainly clear out the ambiguousness of saying of any size.
The sentence below would be definitely an improvement:
Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants.
Likeminas (
talk)
14:10, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
What exactly is wrong with the previous compromise edit? Justin talk 16:57, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and the southernmost city in the world. (Some very small settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size.)[1]
Issue nr | Issue | Proposed change |
---|---|---|
1 | (Smaller settlements lie further south, but Ushuaia is the southernmost of any size.) | remove this sentence or reformulate to Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants. (as proposed by linkeminas) |
2 | "NYT" citation | put it back to back the statement that Ushuaia is considered/called the southernmost city |
3 | Tourism section | add sentence explaining the importance of being the southernmost city for tourism |
4 | Vandalism/Edit wars | add this <!--Do not edit the lead of this article regarding ushuaia status as the southernmost city in the world without first discussing it on Talk. Any substantial changes without consensus on Talk may be reverted.--> to the entrance. |
Dentren | Talk 15:12, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
a) NYT citation needs to be included. b) Ushuaia is the southernmost city, that needs to be stated. What is proposed is weasel words and unneccessary. I have no objection to pointing out that there are other settlments such as Puerto Williams further south. c) No objection to points 3 or 4. I have to say that if you'd come here with this sort of proposal before it would have avoided generating unnecessary heat and light. Justin talk 17:07, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
I have done some searching for sources to inform this discussion and found the following sources describing places as southernmost city in the world:-
I could not personally find any source that comes out unambiguously to say Puerto Williams is the southernmost city however an article (I found offline) in The Sunday Times on 21 December 2008 entitled "JOURNEY TO THE END OF THE EARTH" provides a good discussion of the relative merits of both Ushuaia and Puerto Williams (discussing what makes a place a city). There are also quite a few articles that mention Puerto Williams claim but also mentioning Ushuaia at the same time. This Independent article describes Puerto Williams as "a city proud of its "most southerly town in the world" title" which is really confusing for this discussion! I also found a few articles describing Puerto Williams as the most southerly town in the world.
These sources are not exhaustive by any means especially for Ushuaia's claim. I hope these sources are of some use in deciding what the wording should be and could used for verification of claims if needed. Davewild ( talk) 17:53, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Punta Arenas Coordinates: 53°10′S 70°56′W Ushuaia Coordinates: 54°48′S 68°18′W
Nice to see some attempt to refer to reliable sources. Simply looking at a map shows that Punta Arenas is North of Ushuaia. Even Chile does not define Puerto Williams as a city - the articles you've mentioned don't make that claim. Can we use a bit of common sense please? Justin talk 22:21, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
Regarding the claim that PW is not considered a city by Chilean standards I would like to have a citation on that to believe it because it could contradict Chilean policies regarding tourism and geopolitics in PW.
Here there are some links to Chilean media refering to it as the southernmost city. [4] 2005.] [5] and scientific articles refering to it as a city [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] also in Cabo de Hornos commune (of wich Pw is the capital) homepage PW is refered as a city. [11] I did the following search in google searching only for pages in English.
Ushuaia is of course leading but that doent make it the southernmost city. This reflacts that there is clearly diferent views on which is the southernmost city. Wikipedia should have neutral point of view, to reach that the article can not simple state that Ushuaua "is", but can instead state that U. "is called", "sometimes considered" or "often considered". Dentren | Talk 09:56, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Meaningless: "southernmost city" ushuaia "punta arenas" 8310 Just look at the first result (spoiler: Ushuaia is southernmost and it is a .cl domain) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.223.193 ( talk) 12:14, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Likeminas ( talk) 16:20, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia can not favour a city with the title "the southernmost city". And there are clearly different views of the issue. We abstain to decide and let the reader the facts and meanings.
I think that the solution given in Puerto Williams should be applied to Ushuaia (20.5.2009):
For Ushuaia:
Then a passage with some briefly explain follows:
-- Keysanger ( talk) 14:24, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and the southernmost city of its size in the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.255.223.193 ( talk) 15:13, 20 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego and is widely regarded as the southernmost city in the world. Smaller settlements lie farther south, but none reaching more than 3000 inhabitants.
That seems more accurate than the current proposals, which to my mind seem to lend undue weight to arguments in favour of Puerto Williams. Those arguments seem to be based solely on the Chilean authorities reclassifying PW as a city to boost the tourist trade. Wikipedia exists to provide information, its not a booster for the Chilean tourist industry. Justin talk 00:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
So while some in Chile may want to start promoting PW with the southernmost city slogan, the general idea one gets from reading Chilean documents is that the urban centre Puerto Williams is too small to be considered a City by Chile, a fact that should be determining here in this 'sourthernmost city' discussion. So this Proposal 3 seems the best option -plus reducing the size of that introduction could also help to make the article more presentable. Puerto Williams could always be described as the "southernmost Town in the World" surely? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 19:34, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego. It is widely regarded as the southernmost city in the world, though that description is occasionally applied also attributed to
Punta Arenas or
Puerto Williams in Chile.
(I would like to divide the first sentence, since the notability of Ushuaia in no way depends on being southernmost city. And as 201.255.223.193 points out, Punta Arenas somehow fell out of consideration.) Elphion ( talk) 03:10, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
(Changed "applied also" to "attributed", per E. Ripley's better formulation.) Elphion ( talk) 03:46, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
Ushuaia (pronounced [u'swaia] in Spanish, /u'ʃwaia/ in English) is the capital of the Argentine province of Tierra del Fuego. It is commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world, though that description is occasionally attributed to Punta Arenas or Puerto Williams in Chile. Dentren | Talk 15:14, 21 May 2009 (UTC)
The only difference between Proposals 4 and 5 is "widely" (4) vs "commonly" (5)
I just discover this "new" discussion. As an argentine maybe I should not vote on this one but is not Punta Arenas almost 200 km North of Ushuaia ? And is not almost half Puerto Williams buildings and personel military ? (may be wrong) --
Jor70 (
talk)
17:50, 23 May 2009 (UTC)
The given reference doesn't fit the statement.
The reference is a to a meeting of the "COMISIONES DE TURISMO Y DE DEFENSA NACIONAL" (what a mix!), and they edited a "Proyecto de resolución" (not a resolution), that should declare:
The page does not show any resolution and the proyect only "express preocupation" and nothing more. That is right so, then the Argentine Congress could not declare which is the southernmost city of the world.
So I corrected the text.
-- Keysanger ( talk) 13:25, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
I think you misread the text here. The Camara de diputados (Lower House) expressed preoccupation about the "fallacious" or "treacherous" (falaz) information in that newspaper. Also a "Resuelve:" specifically means a "Resolution by the Lower House" (ie Diputados). Hence I personally don't agree with the need for another citation, since the lower house has actually refuted or called that information in Clarin "falaz" (fallacious or treacherous). It is rather strong language to use in condemnation of a newspaper article. Note also that nothing more was said about this issue in Clarin or any other newspaper. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 14:40, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
This should settle this ongoing controversy of whether or not Puerto Williams is a City or just a Town:
Entidad Urbana. Conjunto de viviendas concentradas con más de 2.000 habitantes, o entre 1.001 y 2.000 habitantes, con el 50% o más de su población económicamente activa, dedicada a actividades secundarias y/o terciarias. Excepcionalmente, los centros que cumplen funciones de turismo y recreación con más de 250 viviendas concentradas y que no alcanzan el requisito de población se consideran urbanos. Ciudad (Cd). Entidad urbana que posee más de 5.000 habitantes. Pueblo (Pb). Entidad urbana con una población que fluctúa entre 2.001 y 5.000 habitantes, o entre 1.001 y 2.000 habitantes, con el 50% o más de su población económicamente activa dedicada a actividades secundarias y/o terciarias. Excepcionalmente se asimilan a pueblo los centros poblados, que cumplen funciones de turismo y recreación con más de 250 viviendas concentradas y que no alcancen el requisito de población.
This is copied direct from http://www.ine.cl/canales/chile_estadistico/territorio/division_politico_administrativa/pdf/dpa2001.pdf (hope copyright isn't an issue here?)
From the above it is clear that Puerto Williams is only just considered an 'urban entity' with its 2500 odd residents. Ushuaia passes this threshold by some 60.000 odd residents.
Note that the 2007 report also follows this rule by calling Pica, with 2642 people, a Town ie Pueblo Chuckarg33 ( talk) 15:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Re from 2002 census:
COMUNA CUT Entidad Urbana Categoría Superficie Urbana Censal ( Km²) Población Viviendas Punta Arenas 12101 Punta Arenas Cd 39,03 116.005 35.389 Cabo de Hornos 12201 Puerto Williams Pb 1,19 1.952 561 Porvenir 12301 Porvenir Pb 2,63 4.734 1.377 Natales 12401 Puerto Natales Cd 5,57 16.978 5.763
Obviously Pb is Pueblo or Town, Cd is Ciudad or City.
This should settle this argument for good, maybe?? Chuckarg33 ( talk) 15:55, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Can someone tidy up the References throughout the article? I'm guilty of several poorly built ones but I'm not all that confident about doing it properly. Several are repeated unfortunately and its generally messy. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 16:43, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
Re this new entry:
"Punta Arenas, Chile, is also sometimes considered the southernmost city. While north of Ushuaia, it has a considerably larger population."
Are not both Punta Arenas and Ushuaia considered 'Cities', or defined as as City by both countries? so then this sentence really isn't necessary here. Its seems to be a personal opinion too, does it not? not NPOV.
Please add any thoughts here, otherwise I think the words above should be deleted from wikipedia. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 06:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
Actually I should add why these references aren't all that good:
Maybe the solution is to say in the Ushuaia article that Ushuaia is usually considered the 'southernmost city' in the world, as in the current introduction, and in the Punta Arenas article that 'Punta Arenas is sometimes considered the southernmost city in the world', since its 'sometimes' not 'always'. This because the article here is about Ushuaia and not about which city is the southernmost one. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 04:44, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Anyway, I've started an article Southernmost City in the World to take most of the arguing over there, and hopefully the paragraph here on 'Southernmost city' to if people agree to do that. Chuckarg33 ( talk) 06:41, 30 May 2009 (UTC)
Because I read that the southernmost issue is "disputed" in the article of
Puerto Williams, I guess it's fair to include it here too. I proceed then as I hope no feelings could be hurt.
Sobreira
(parlez)
08:12, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Does the gay marriage thing really belong here? I mean, really, it's a tiny little town with nothing but blue sea and sky between it and Antarctica. Does every place on Earth need a discussion of gay marriage in Wikipedia?? Based on teh gays in my office, I am sure there are dozens of other online resources gays can access which have ad nauseum discussions of every detail of gay legal rights in Ushuaia and every other place imaginable. I have removed it due to complete lack of relevance. 24.17.192.214 ( talk) 04:44, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
The "agreement" that was disavowed by Argentina must be presented to the reader. It is a relevant and well referenced fact. Argentina has often disavowed his treaties, anyway there must be comunicated to the reader (the pact, I mean) --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 19:12, 4 February 2012 (UTC)
http://www.diputados.gov.ar/dependencias/dcomisiones/periodo-116/116-1243.html and http://www.lanacion.com.ar/nota.asp?nota_id=101904
I see we have a impasse regarding the importance of the fact that there has been an agreement about the title "the southermeost city of the world" and that this agreement has been broken by one side. I will start an Third opinion or an RfC about this case. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:10, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Would you agree to move the information out from the lede into the main article?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 11:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Why review the consensus?
190.17.69.249 ( talk) 12:22, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
I think it is relevant and I think that the current version of the article is driven more by a commercial than by an encyclopedic interest.
I assume that you aren't Elphion, and that in this case a third opinion is not possible. Are you Elphion?. --Best regards,
Keysanger (
what?)
12:25, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Regarding your "it is irrelevant", I want to remember that according to WP:NPOV:
Your version of the issue doesn't include the agreement. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 12:36, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Addition: It's not even clear that Ushuaia's slogan came up in the discussions. It's not germane to the topic the commission was negotiating, and in their report to the Chamber of Deputies (link above) the commissioners flatly deny it. Perhaps this was a political denial; but perhaps also El Clarín was indulging in yellow journalism. Hard to know at this point. Whatever the truth, I've yet to see any evidence that the government agreed to such a change. -- Elphion ( talk) 19:08, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
We have a long standing discussion about whether is it relevant or irrelevant the background information about "the southernmost city in the world". Should the article include this information?. --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 21:11, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
I don't understand why Keysanger has taken this to RfC already, as he has yet to answer the points raised above, and has misrepresented the incident. In short: of his three references, the first is an article in El Clarín reporting that the commission agreed to transfer the title from Ushuaia to Puerto Williams, but the second two references report official denials that the matter was even discussed. So despite Keysanger's claim, there was certainly no agreement on the title. The first reference represents false reporting by Clarín to try to derail the real negotiations that had taken place (attempting to set up new arrangements for the peaceful administration of the border between Argentina and Chile, among other things by arranging for peaceful military transport of Chilean forces across Tierra del Fuego see below). Keysanger is correct that this is correctly (if elliptically) described in the article
Puerto Williams, and I have suggested that something similar be added to the Tourism section of
Ushuaia, or perhaps preferably that it be removed to the article
Southernmost settlements, which already has a section on the title "Southernmost City of the World" and is probably the right place to put this. --
Elphion (
talk)
01:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
There are two separate matters. And both have been discussed previously. The first is Ushuaia's condition as the southernmost city in the world, reflected in the beginning of the article (with sources). Note that it has already been agreed that it may not be universally accepted that Puerto Williams is not a city, so the wording "commonly regarded" was used. The other is the controversy of whether Argentina handed over the slogan that has caracterised Ushuaia in favor of Puerto Williams. This is also mentioned in the article. What I consider irrelevant about the controversy is that, no matter what the outcome is, it won't magically make Puerto Williams known as the southernmost city. Otherwise, Wikipedia would be a propaganda organ. 190.17.69.249 ( talk) 14:29, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
(outdent) I just noticed that the SCOTW claim and some of its history it already included in this article (under Geography). In light of this, what specific changes to the current text do you think would be advisable? -- Elphion ( talk) 16:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
I think we have enough feedback from the community and it is overwhelming for the inclusion of the background of the dispute in the lede. I support ...commonly regarded as the southernmost city in the world (a title disputed by Puerto Williams). --Best regards, Keysanger ( what?) 12:09, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
There is an inconsistency. In the text and the yearly extreme, the coldest temperate is -21C (-5.8F), but in the month of July in the table the record low is -25.1C (-13.2F). I can't read the original sources in Spanish though. Lies from the tablecloth ( talk) 02:05, 23 March 2014 (UTC)
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I propose that the "Symbols" section of this article should be removed. That information belongs in (and is already in) the info-box, rather than its own section of the article.
Alatorr ( talk) 04:43, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
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While it’s true that the /ʃ/ exists in Rioplatense Spanish, Ushuaia is pronounced /u’swaja/ nonetheless by Argentines. 190.19.144.181 ( talk) 04:21, 23 February 2023 (UTC)
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