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The Latin name for Salisbury is not "Sarum", it is Salisburium. Sarum is the abbreviation that was used on maps. It became common to use Sarum in reference to Salisbury. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clementissime ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody write more on the influence on the Book of Common Prayer? You already mention the Advent propers and the counting of Sundays after Trinity; another influence I know about is the Lord's Prayer and the Collect of Purity at the beginning of the Mass. Anything more?-- 130.133.155.69 ( talk) 12:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I can't speak to its accuracy but, if this source is right, a fuller treatment of its argument needs to go into the article.
In fine, even with one its bishops getting the job for having moved through the service so rapidly, it never made sense that Salisbury was the go-to for medieval English services. The linked essay argues (first) that Osmund's book itself was very short and (second and more importantly) that the changes introduced by Osmund and his successors at Salisbury were at the vanguard of converting English ecclesiastical lands and tithes into prebends and cash payments that gave its church's middle management an enviable lifestyle that was (sooner or later) copied by its fellows. The rest of the uses came along as part of the financial reform.
Obviously, today, people usually think of the Sarum Rite as the Antient & Customarie Usages of the Britons from Tyme Immemoriall but it only came to seem that way after the fights of the Reformation. In its own time, it was Norman innovation on top of Roman and Saxon uses; we should do a better job explaining why this particular set won out for a time. — LlywelynII 09:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
edit: From the same set of essays, letters by Peter of Blois explicitly invoke "the constitution of Osmund and of Jocelin" in arguing that they intended that the holders of the largest prebends should be resident while the lesser canons should be free to take their income wherever they might be. — LlywelynII 11:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
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Sarum Rite. Please take a moment to review
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The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Use of Sarum/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Needs citations and references. |
Last edited at 18:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 05:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/ c 20:48, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Sarum Rite → ? – This page should be renamed The Sarum Use because the article itself says "The Sarum Rite, more properly called the Use of Salisbury", which is a contradiction. Every rite is separate, there cannot be a rite within a rite, but there can be a use (variance) in a rite. The Sarum Use is a use because it is a variant of the Roman Rite.
SirChan (
talk)
04:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia says other wise:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm "(More accurately SARUM USE)"
How could it be legitimately called "Sarum Rite" for short when the proper title is the "Use of Salisbury"? Wikipedia:PRECISION does dictate "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. For instance, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic." Use of Salisbury would be too precise as the Sarum Use is precise enough as indicated in the Mother Teresa example.
It is indisputable that the Sarum Use belongs to the Roman Rite family. After all, England was a Catholic country before the Henrician Reformation. SirChan ( talk) 05:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The term “rite” or “ritus” or any variation thereof is not found in the surviving Customaries or Ordinals of Sarum Use, anywhere. The only terms—used over and over and over again, for CENTURIES—are “secundum usum sarum” “ad usum sarum”, i.e., “according to the Use of Sarum”, or “in the Sarum Use”. A “made-up phrase”? Ludicrous. Given the abundance of information available online for this topic, including numerous transcriptions and translations of primary sources, it boggles the mind that hearsay, rumor, and innuendo were the best anyone could provide when discussing this name change. One article from a Catholic encyclopdia from 100 years is sad bit of evidence when faced with so much legitimate scholarship.
Start here for ALL of the surviving Customaries: http://www.sarumcustomary.org.uk/.
Then go here for the (so-far) only full transcription of the so-called Old Ordinal: sarum-chant.ca, tab ‘More Documents’, ‘Ordinale Sarisburiensis’. MonteGargano ( talk) 17:47, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Comparison of Sarum Use to the Roman Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Dominican Rite, Mozarabic Rite, and Cistercian Rite is completely pointless, since those rites legitimately ARE very distinct from each other, with their own components and structures and even their own distinct liturgical years. The Sarum Use is a variation of one of those Rites, the Roman.
Worth noting is that while the mendicant orders and the various branches of Benedictine monasticism have widely varying rites for the office—by far the most numerous and lengthy of the day’s services—most adhere to the Roman Rite for mass. MonteGargano ( talk) 19:09, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to Use of Sarum. Andrewa ( talk) 16:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Sarum Rite → Sarum Use – A request to change the name of this article to “Sarum Use” was rejected in favor of the recent and poorly-attested term “Sarum Rite”. I was unaware of the discussion at the time, and I am re-submitting this request, this time to be considered in the light of legitimate, academic evidence.
The term “rite” or “ritus” or any variation thereof is not found in the surviving Customaries or Ordinals of Sarum Use, anywhere. The only terms—used over and over and over again, for CENTURIES—are “secundum usum sarum” or “ad usum sarum”, i.e., “according to the Use of Sarum” or “in Sarum Use”. A comment in the original discussion of the name-change referred to this as a “made-up phrase”. Ludicrous. The manufactured phrase is “Sarum Rite”.
Another commenter made a comparison of the Sarum Use to the Roman Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Dominican Rite, Mozarabic Rite, and Cistercian Rite, which was utter nonsense. Those rites legitimately ARE distinct rites, sensu strictu, with their own components and structures and even their own distinct liturgical years. The Sarum Use is a variation of one of those Rites, the Roman. Similarly, other Rites, including many not mentioned here, historically had local variants (not always called “Uses”), most or all of which are now suppressed or forgotten.
(Worth noting is that while the mendicant orders and the various branches of Benedictine monasticism have widely varying Rites for the canonical hours—by far the most numerous and lengthy of the day’s services—most congregations adhere to the Roman Rite for mass. Discussions of the topic of Rites and Uses often demonstrate confusion on this point.)
For reference, ALL of the surviving Sarum Customaries are available in transcription here: http://www.sarumcustomary.org.uk/. Search on “usum” in each of the Latin or Latin-English customaries, and you will readily see how common this term is. Search on “ritus” or “ritu”, and you will find nothing. (English “rite” was used to translated “obsequium”, which is too bad.)
In addition, academic writers of the last century or so have used the term “Sarum Use” exclusively, including W.H. Frere, Francis Procter, and Christopher Wordsworth, the foremost scholars on the subject
The claim that the term “Sarum Rite” somehow fits the guidelines of Wikipedia’s "Common Name" is a circular argument, since the only evidence for its widespread use is in Wikipedia’s article, though—ironically enough—not in the article’s own footnotes, where every primary and academic secondary source exclusively uses the term “Sarum Use”. Some of the popular articles use the phrase “Sarum Rite”; but non-academic chit-chats and the popular press are a poor foundation for any genuinely academic article.
Clearly, the correct title for this article is “Sarum Use”, and the decision not to make the change should be revisisted. The first line of the article would then read, “The Sarum Use, also known as the Use of Salisbury or the Sarum Rite, was a variant ("use") of the Roman Rite... ” This acknowledges the popular but rather recent use of the term “Sarum Rite”. MonteGargano ( talk) 20:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 10:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
One further observation on the arguments mustered against the first attempt to change the name—Mr. Ballioni’s claim that Google Books [1] pulls up plenty of references to “Sarum Rite” is simply bogus. The search turns up far more references to “Sarum Use”; and it is worth noting that the occurrences of the term “Sarum Rite” are in recent books covering many topics OTHER THAN Christian liturgy and worship. The scholarly works that deal directly with the liturgy refer time and again to “Sarum Use”. MonteGargano ( talk) 21:38, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15735a.htm: “It was a received principle in medieval canon law that while as regards judicial matters, as regards the sacraments, and also the more solemn fasts, the custom of the Roman Church was to be adhered to; still in the matter of church services (divinis officiis) each Church kept to its own traditions (see the Decretum Gratiani, c. iv., d. 12). In this way there came into existence a number of “Uses”, by which word were denoted the special liturgical customs which prevailed in a particular diocese or group of dioceses: speaking of England before the Reformation, in the south and in the midlands, the ceremonial was regulated by the Sarum Use, but in the greater part of the north the Use of York prevailed.” MonteGargano ( talk) 22:37, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Might I offer a quote from the WP:TLDR page? “Being too quick to pointedly mention this essay may come across as dismissive and rude.” My discussion rebuts arguments from the earlier attempt to rename this page, and then provides academic references for making the change. Should I simply have written, “Change it because I say so”? MonteGargano ( talk) 05:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Among researchers and serious scholars that I know, Wikipedia is endlessly attacked as anti-academic. I have resisted that accusation for years, because I see a lot of good work here, and many articles are exceptionally well written. I am endlessly encouraging skilled and knowledgeable people to participate, because—until this week—I was convinced of the value they could add. Maybe I’m a bit daft or a bit slow to accept reality, but the reaction to this discussion here leaves me wondering how right my friends are. The very idea that anyone would refuse to read a valid argument because it has a lot of words is shocking to me. I’ve nearly put my eyes out reading 500-year-old bad handwriting IN LATIN, just to contribute my little piece to the modern work being done on Sarum manuscript sources; I've edited and transliterated thousands of pages for online access; and yet the discussion of this name change hinges on a keyword search in Google books? “Anti-academic” doesn’t begin to describe it. MonteGargano ( talk) 19:01, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
I further propose these questions: What characteristics distinguish one rite from another? What characteristics distinguish a use while clearly maintaining its membership in a rite? Answer those, and you will see that a change in title is appropriate here. MonteGargano ( talk) 20:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Returning to the issue of consistency, consider the descriptions of books of hours in museums and auction houses throughout the English-speaking world: “Use of Bayeux”, “Use of Paris”, “Use or Reims”, “Use of Utrecht”, “Use of Douay”, even “Use of Rome” (to describe the peculiarities of practice within Rome itself), and many others. Google any of these you will see how widespread the general adoption of the term “use” is in several disciplines. Also, see this site ( http://manuscripts.org.uk/chd.dk/gui/index.html), the most prominent and important one to deal with books of hours; they identify many uses, including the Use of Sarum. Where, then, is the consistency in singling out Sarum as a rite, while all of its sisters (within the Roman Rite) are called Uses? MonteGargano ( talk) 22:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
And here's another. Manuscripts at the British Library are labeled “Use of Sarum”. http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/results.asp I can add more of this stuff, clearly demonstrating common use and consistency. But just how much is needed to confirm HERE what is obvious everywhere else? MonteGargano ( talk) 23:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
TonyBallioni: You need to clarify for me your statement, “what Wikipedia consistently refers to similar subjects”. What similar subjects? Are you again raising the incorrect association of various uses with legitimate rites, such as Ambrosian, Mozarabic, etc? If so, I can understand your argument; but it is based on a falsehood. You might as well argue that New York City is an independent state because so many people think it is. But no, there is a New York state, and NYC is ONE of its cities. Similarly for this liturgy, the rite is Roman, one of its uses is of Sarum. The “similar subject” here is the Use of York. For consistency, are you proposing we change that to “York Rite”? Good luck finding that term in common use, outside of Freemasonry. MonteGargano ( talk) 23:52, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
TonyBallioni: I never stated that “Sarum Rite” was not found in academic sources. I said it was not used by scholars of the Sarum liturgy. In fact, I referenced a number of those sources, and the response here was “I certainly didn’t read the whole thing”. This was followed by, “the article naming policy isn't about what the technically proper term is”. Well, that’s a revelation. I’ll have to remember in the future that I should avoid using technically proper terms. Then, in defense of the most “common” term, I pointed out that Use of Sarum is the ONLY term used to catalog manuscripts in English-speaking libraries and the ONLY term used by the auction houses Christie’s and Sotheby’s. The response was that only Wikipedia’s circular references were valid, “not what similar subjects are referred to in other sources.” Then I pointed out that Wikipedia itself is internally INCONSISTENT, by grouping the Use of Sarum with other legitimate Rites, and by separating it from its sister liturgy, the Use of York. The response was, “Different usages of the Latin Church across Wikipedia are referred to as rites consistently on Wikipedia”—and yet, no surprise, absolutely no such articles were cited. In fact, nothing has been cited other than a keyword search from Google Books—a keyword search that would turn up just as many references to “Use of Sarum”.
So, given that the terms are equally common, one might expect that a decision would be based on
Alternatively, we could rely on unsubstantiated claims, such as
I have presented an endless array of logical reasons WITH EVIDENCE for making this change. I am countered with opinions and broad claims, but no links to anything beyond a keyword search on Google books. MonteGargano ( talk) 02:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
It deeply pains me to break my word, but I must answer your request for “a published quote from an expert saying ‘such-and-such is the standard use in the field’.” Peter Beal does exactly that in his Dictionary of English Manuscript Terminology: 1450 to 2000, p. 48, which is luckily available here, 12; and p. 26 here 13, where he gives “Use of Sarum” as the correct term. This was published AFTER the “Sarum Rite” article was written, which gives his dictionary more weight, according to the rules. And the dictionary meets this guideline, “In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias [e.g., Beal’s dictionary], geographic name servers, major scientific bodies [e.g., the British Library, as noted above], and notable scientific journals.” So even Wikipedia’s own precious rules give the advantage to the scholar who literally “wrote the book” on the subject. MonteGargano ( talk) 18:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)
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The Latin name for Salisbury is not "Sarum", it is Salisburium. Sarum is the abbreviation that was used on maps. It became common to use Sarum in reference to Salisbury. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Clementissime ( talk • contribs) 19:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
Could somebody write more on the influence on the Book of Common Prayer? You already mention the Advent propers and the counting of Sundays after Trinity; another influence I know about is the Lord's Prayer and the Collect of Purity at the beginning of the Mass. Anything more?-- 130.133.155.69 ( talk) 12:00, 11 April 2013 (UTC)
I can't speak to its accuracy but, if this source is right, a fuller treatment of its argument needs to go into the article.
In fine, even with one its bishops getting the job for having moved through the service so rapidly, it never made sense that Salisbury was the go-to for medieval English services. The linked essay argues (first) that Osmund's book itself was very short and (second and more importantly) that the changes introduced by Osmund and his successors at Salisbury were at the vanguard of converting English ecclesiastical lands and tithes into prebends and cash payments that gave its church's middle management an enviable lifestyle that was (sooner or later) copied by its fellows. The rest of the uses came along as part of the financial reform.
Obviously, today, people usually think of the Sarum Rite as the Antient & Customarie Usages of the Britons from Tyme Immemoriall but it only came to seem that way after the fights of the Reformation. In its own time, it was Norman innovation on top of Roman and Saxon uses; we should do a better job explaining why this particular set won out for a time. — LlywelynII 09:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
edit: From the same set of essays, letters by Peter of Blois explicitly invoke "the constitution of Osmund and of Jocelin" in arguing that they intended that the holders of the largest prebends should be resident while the lesser canons should be free to take their income wherever they might be. — LlywelynII 11:34, 3 January 2015 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just added archive links to one external link on
Sarum Rite. Please take a moment to review
my edit. If necessary, add {{
cbignore}}
after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{
nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}}
to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true to let others know.
An editor has reviewed this edit and fixed any errors that were found.
Cheers.— cyberbot II Talk to my owner:Online 21:04, 9 January 2016 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Use of Sarum/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Needs citations and references. |
Last edited at 18:07, 15 August 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 05:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/ c 20:48, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
Sarum Rite → ? – This page should be renamed The Sarum Use because the article itself says "The Sarum Rite, more properly called the Use of Salisbury", which is a contradiction. Every rite is separate, there cannot be a rite within a rite, but there can be a use (variance) in a rite. The Sarum Use is a use because it is a variant of the Roman Rite.
SirChan (
talk)
04:13, 2 October 2017 (UTC)
The Catholic Encyclopedia says other wise:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13479a.htm "(More accurately SARUM USE)"
How could it be legitimately called "Sarum Rite" for short when the proper title is the "Use of Salisbury"? Wikipedia:PRECISION does dictate "Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. For instance, Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta is too precise, as Mother Teresa is precise enough to indicate exactly the same topic." Use of Salisbury would be too precise as the Sarum Use is precise enough as indicated in the Mother Teresa example.
It is indisputable that the Sarum Use belongs to the Roman Rite family. After all, England was a Catholic country before the Henrician Reformation. SirChan ( talk) 05:10, 6 October 2017 (UTC)
The term “rite” or “ritus” or any variation thereof is not found in the surviving Customaries or Ordinals of Sarum Use, anywhere. The only terms—used over and over and over again, for CENTURIES—are “secundum usum sarum” “ad usum sarum”, i.e., “according to the Use of Sarum”, or “in the Sarum Use”. A “made-up phrase”? Ludicrous. Given the abundance of information available online for this topic, including numerous transcriptions and translations of primary sources, it boggles the mind that hearsay, rumor, and innuendo were the best anyone could provide when discussing this name change. One article from a Catholic encyclopdia from 100 years is sad bit of evidence when faced with so much legitimate scholarship.
Start here for ALL of the surviving Customaries: http://www.sarumcustomary.org.uk/.
Then go here for the (so-far) only full transcription of the so-called Old Ordinal: sarum-chant.ca, tab ‘More Documents’, ‘Ordinale Sarisburiensis’. MonteGargano ( talk) 17:47, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
Comparison of Sarum Use to the Roman Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Dominican Rite, Mozarabic Rite, and Cistercian Rite is completely pointless, since those rites legitimately ARE very distinct from each other, with their own components and structures and even their own distinct liturgical years. The Sarum Use is a variation of one of those Rites, the Roman.
Worth noting is that while the mendicant orders and the various branches of Benedictine monasticism have widely varying rites for the office—by far the most numerous and lengthy of the day’s services—most adhere to the Roman Rite for mass. MonteGargano ( talk) 19:09, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved to Use of Sarum. Andrewa ( talk) 16:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Sarum Rite → Sarum Use – A request to change the name of this article to “Sarum Use” was rejected in favor of the recent and poorly-attested term “Sarum Rite”. I was unaware of the discussion at the time, and I am re-submitting this request, this time to be considered in the light of legitimate, academic evidence.
The term “rite” or “ritus” or any variation thereof is not found in the surviving Customaries or Ordinals of Sarum Use, anywhere. The only terms—used over and over and over again, for CENTURIES—are “secundum usum sarum” or “ad usum sarum”, i.e., “according to the Use of Sarum” or “in Sarum Use”. A comment in the original discussion of the name-change referred to this as a “made-up phrase”. Ludicrous. The manufactured phrase is “Sarum Rite”.
Another commenter made a comparison of the Sarum Use to the Roman Rite, Ambrosian Rite, Dominican Rite, Mozarabic Rite, and Cistercian Rite, which was utter nonsense. Those rites legitimately ARE distinct rites, sensu strictu, with their own components and structures and even their own distinct liturgical years. The Sarum Use is a variation of one of those Rites, the Roman. Similarly, other Rites, including many not mentioned here, historically had local variants (not always called “Uses”), most or all of which are now suppressed or forgotten.
(Worth noting is that while the mendicant orders and the various branches of Benedictine monasticism have widely varying Rites for the canonical hours—by far the most numerous and lengthy of the day’s services—most congregations adhere to the Roman Rite for mass. Discussions of the topic of Rites and Uses often demonstrate confusion on this point.)
For reference, ALL of the surviving Sarum Customaries are available in transcription here: http://www.sarumcustomary.org.uk/. Search on “usum” in each of the Latin or Latin-English customaries, and you will readily see how common this term is. Search on “ritus” or “ritu”, and you will find nothing. (English “rite” was used to translated “obsequium”, which is too bad.)
In addition, academic writers of the last century or so have used the term “Sarum Use” exclusively, including W.H. Frere, Francis Procter, and Christopher Wordsworth, the foremost scholars on the subject
The claim that the term “Sarum Rite” somehow fits the guidelines of Wikipedia’s "Common Name" is a circular argument, since the only evidence for its widespread use is in Wikipedia’s article, though—ironically enough—not in the article’s own footnotes, where every primary and academic secondary source exclusively uses the term “Sarum Use”. Some of the popular articles use the phrase “Sarum Rite”; but non-academic chit-chats and the popular press are a poor foundation for any genuinely academic article.
Clearly, the correct title for this article is “Sarum Use”, and the decision not to make the change should be revisisted. The first line of the article would then read, “The Sarum Use, also known as the Use of Salisbury or the Sarum Rite, was a variant ("use") of the Roman Rite... ” This acknowledges the popular but rather recent use of the term “Sarum Rite”. MonteGargano ( talk) 20:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. – Ammarpad ( talk) 10:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
One further observation on the arguments mustered against the first attempt to change the name—Mr. Ballioni’s claim that Google Books [1] pulls up plenty of references to “Sarum Rite” is simply bogus. The search turns up far more references to “Sarum Use”; and it is worth noting that the occurrences of the term “Sarum Rite” are in recent books covering many topics OTHER THAN Christian liturgy and worship. The scholarly works that deal directly with the liturgy refer time and again to “Sarum Use”. MonteGargano ( talk) 21:38, 14 February 2018 (UTC)
From the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15735a.htm: “It was a received principle in medieval canon law that while as regards judicial matters, as regards the sacraments, and also the more solemn fasts, the custom of the Roman Church was to be adhered to; still in the matter of church services (divinis officiis) each Church kept to its own traditions (see the Decretum Gratiani, c. iv., d. 12). In this way there came into existence a number of “Uses”, by which word were denoted the special liturgical customs which prevailed in a particular diocese or group of dioceses: speaking of England before the Reformation, in the south and in the midlands, the ceremonial was regulated by the Sarum Use, but in the greater part of the north the Use of York prevailed.” MonteGargano ( talk) 22:37, 17 February 2018 (UTC)
Might I offer a quote from the WP:TLDR page? “Being too quick to pointedly mention this essay may come across as dismissive and rude.” My discussion rebuts arguments from the earlier attempt to rename this page, and then provides academic references for making the change. Should I simply have written, “Change it because I say so”? MonteGargano ( talk) 05:25, 19 February 2018 (UTC)
Among researchers and serious scholars that I know, Wikipedia is endlessly attacked as anti-academic. I have resisted that accusation for years, because I see a lot of good work here, and many articles are exceptionally well written. I am endlessly encouraging skilled and knowledgeable people to participate, because—until this week—I was convinced of the value they could add. Maybe I’m a bit daft or a bit slow to accept reality, but the reaction to this discussion here leaves me wondering how right my friends are. The very idea that anyone would refuse to read a valid argument because it has a lot of words is shocking to me. I’ve nearly put my eyes out reading 500-year-old bad handwriting IN LATIN, just to contribute my little piece to the modern work being done on Sarum manuscript sources; I've edited and transliterated thousands of pages for online access; and yet the discussion of this name change hinges on a keyword search in Google books? “Anti-academic” doesn’t begin to describe it. MonteGargano ( talk) 19:01, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
I further propose these questions: What characteristics distinguish one rite from another? What characteristics distinguish a use while clearly maintaining its membership in a rite? Answer those, and you will see that a change in title is appropriate here. MonteGargano ( talk) 20:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
Returning to the issue of consistency, consider the descriptions of books of hours in museums and auction houses throughout the English-speaking world: “Use of Bayeux”, “Use of Paris”, “Use or Reims”, “Use of Utrecht”, “Use of Douay”, even “Use of Rome” (to describe the peculiarities of practice within Rome itself), and many others. Google any of these you will see how widespread the general adoption of the term “use” is in several disciplines. Also, see this site ( http://manuscripts.org.uk/chd.dk/gui/index.html), the most prominent and important one to deal with books of hours; they identify many uses, including the Use of Sarum. Where, then, is the consistency in singling out Sarum as a rite, while all of its sisters (within the Roman Rite) are called Uses? MonteGargano ( talk) 22:24, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
And here's another. Manuscripts at the British Library are labeled “Use of Sarum”. http://www.bl.uk/catalogues/illuminatedmanuscripts/results.asp I can add more of this stuff, clearly demonstrating common use and consistency. But just how much is needed to confirm HERE what is obvious everywhere else? MonteGargano ( talk) 23:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
TonyBallioni: You need to clarify for me your statement, “what Wikipedia consistently refers to similar subjects”. What similar subjects? Are you again raising the incorrect association of various uses with legitimate rites, such as Ambrosian, Mozarabic, etc? If so, I can understand your argument; but it is based on a falsehood. You might as well argue that New York City is an independent state because so many people think it is. But no, there is a New York state, and NYC is ONE of its cities. Similarly for this liturgy, the rite is Roman, one of its uses is of Sarum. The “similar subject” here is the Use of York. For consistency, are you proposing we change that to “York Rite”? Good luck finding that term in common use, outside of Freemasonry. MonteGargano ( talk) 23:52, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
TonyBallioni: I never stated that “Sarum Rite” was not found in academic sources. I said it was not used by scholars of the Sarum liturgy. In fact, I referenced a number of those sources, and the response here was “I certainly didn’t read the whole thing”. This was followed by, “the article naming policy isn't about what the technically proper term is”. Well, that’s a revelation. I’ll have to remember in the future that I should avoid using technically proper terms. Then, in defense of the most “common” term, I pointed out that Use of Sarum is the ONLY term used to catalog manuscripts in English-speaking libraries and the ONLY term used by the auction houses Christie’s and Sotheby’s. The response was that only Wikipedia’s circular references were valid, “not what similar subjects are referred to in other sources.” Then I pointed out that Wikipedia itself is internally INCONSISTENT, by grouping the Use of Sarum with other legitimate Rites, and by separating it from its sister liturgy, the Use of York. The response was, “Different usages of the Latin Church across Wikipedia are referred to as rites consistently on Wikipedia”—and yet, no surprise, absolutely no such articles were cited. In fact, nothing has been cited other than a keyword search from Google Books—a keyword search that would turn up just as many references to “Use of Sarum”.
So, given that the terms are equally common, one might expect that a decision would be based on
Alternatively, we could rely on unsubstantiated claims, such as
I have presented an endless array of logical reasons WITH EVIDENCE for making this change. I am countered with opinions and broad claims, but no links to anything beyond a keyword search on Google books. MonteGargano ( talk) 02:03, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
It deeply pains me to break my word, but I must answer your request for “a published quote from an expert saying ‘such-and-such is the standard use in the field’.” Peter Beal does exactly that in his Dictionary of English Manuscript Terminology: 1450 to 2000, p. 48, which is luckily available here, 12; and p. 26 here 13, where he gives “Use of Sarum” as the correct term. This was published AFTER the “Sarum Rite” article was written, which gives his dictionary more weight, according to the rules. And the dictionary meets this guideline, “In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias [e.g., Beal’s dictionary], geographic name servers, major scientific bodies [e.g., the British Library, as noted above], and notable scientific journals.” So even Wikipedia’s own precious rules give the advantage to the scholar who literally “wrote the book” on the subject. MonteGargano ( talk) 18:15, 24 February 2018 (UTC)