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This article needs to be expanded with additional citations from reputable secondary sources. I will get to this at some point soon... Smee 12:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
Better sources are needed than these, or this material will have to come out, per WP:BLP. Most preferably, for example, secondary sourced citations as opposed to primary sources... Smee 21:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
The Sabine Weber letter is hardly what I would consider a "reliable source", nor is the "Menschenrechtsbüro" ("Office for human rights") of scientology - unless it is about what scientology claims. And then there is WP:BLP. -- Tilman 18:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The burden of proof applies to the person who wishes to put it in. I do not, I only correct the most obvious falsehoods. Currently, it's poorly sourced and should be deleted per WP:BLP until one of the people who wants to insert it, comes up with a reliable source.
Obviously, scientology isn't a reliable source. For example, scientology claims that she was investigated for bribery ("Bestechung"), while she was only investigated accepting a favour ("Vorteilsnahme"). The difference is that the first is accepting money for something legal, the second is accepting money for something illegal.
Btw, LSI John insists that this 5 year old dismissed case is relevant for Youth for Human Rights International. -- Tilman 16:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Can information and reputable secondary sourced citations from the German version of this article be utilized to expand this version, and vice versa? Smee 22:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
The article states "Ursula Caberta y Diaz (born 1950) is the Commissioner for the Scientology Task Force of the Hamburg Interior Authority. She graduated in political economy in 1950." Please note that her date of birth and the date of her receiving a degree in political economy are the same. Azawalli 21:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
On my recent additions I am collecting translations on this story, here are two to start with:
(21 August 2007, SWR website at 11:45am)
Scientology experts deceived by con man
According to SWR information, the supposedly high-ranking dropout of Scientology is a notorious con man. The man was presented to the media by sect experts as a longstanding member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge.
In June this year Christian Markert contacted German authorities in the USA. The 36 year old supposedly seven-year member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge was helped getting out of the organisation.
Shortly later Ursula Caberta (head of the Task Force Scientology, TFS, in Hamburg) presented the man in an event about Scientology to the Berlin CDU faction. Before that the Hamburg ministry of interior had the man flown into Germany. Up to this day Markert is assisted by the TFS as top dropout of Scientology. Market had said to have been a member of Scientology´s interal “intelligence service” called Office of Special Affairs.
In jail for fraud
According to investigation by SWR the 36 year old man was noted many times as a con man; the supposed dropout was even sentenced therefore several times. In the late 1990s he was in prison. The data about his life history are that much contradictory in itself that a longstanding membership and high-ranking duty in Scientology seem to be impossible. In an interview with SWR he said to have studied in the USA in the late 1990s when he became a Scientologist. He claims to have been rapidly appointed member of the inner circle of executives for his talents. Finally he would had been sent to Ireland where he “more or less was head of the Dublin mission”. Meanwhile a speaker of the Irish police confirmed that Markert is currently wanted for theft in Ireland.
Markert gave interviews to “Focus”, ARD, ZDF and other media. The Baden-Wuerttemberg Office for Protection of the Constitution (internal secret service), too, questioned him for several days and was convinced about the correctness of his data to a great extent. When confronted with SWR´s investigations the Office for Protection of the Constitution meanwhile declared that Markert´s information “are considered with caution”.
Voluntarily into psychiatry
But Markert not only deceived sect experts and authorities but also artists. In 2004 he planned the a musical gala with two dozens of performers and rented 40 halls throughout Germany. One staff became suspicious when he showed off to have been on stage even with Glen Close and reported him to the criminal police for fraud which then stopped the whole tour. According to information of the staff’s attorneys he then went to Essen where he admitted himself to psychiatry, the staff said to SWR.
In a catalogue draft of the musical available to SWR, he called himself Chris Markert-Davis and claimed “to have performed as various leading characters in the musical productions of Phantom of the Opera, Sunset Boulevard, Les Miserables and The Beauty and the Beast. With the same photo as in the catalogue he praises himself as an counsellor for life and “doctor of psychology”. Since weeks Markert could not be reached for a comment.
(21 August 2007, SWR website at 7:37pm) Scientology expert dissociating from dropout
Head of the Task Force Scientology Ursula Caberta dissociated from a dropout of the sect who according to information of SWR he is a con man. The supposed “top Scientologist” had also been questioned by the Baden-Wuerttemberg Office for Protection of the Constitution.
She never would have said that 36 year old Christian Markert was a “top Scientologist”, Caberta said to ddp per research of SWR. However she admitted that “the man is assisted like any other dropout”. In a SWR interview in early July the Scientology expert had pointed out to the importance of dropouts for her work where she specifically referred to Markert who according to SWR is a supposed con man. He was presented to the media by sect experts as a longstanding member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge. In June this year Markert contacted German authorities in the USA. As supposedly seven-year member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge he was helped getting out of the organisation. Shortly later Ursula Caberta (head of the Task Force Scientology, TFS, in Hamburg) presented the man in an event about Scientology to the Berlin CDU faction. Before that the Hamburg ministry of interior had the man flown into Germany. Up to this day Markert is assisted by the TFS as top dropout of Scientology. Market had said to have been a member of Scientology´s internal “intelligence service” called Office of Special Affairs.
In jail for fraud
According to investigation by SWR the 36 year old man was noted many times as a con man; the supposed dropout was even sentenced therefore several times. In the late 1990s he was in prison. The data about his life history are that much contradictory in itself that a longstanding membership and high-ranking duty in Scientology seem to be impossible. In an interview with SWR he said to have studied in the USA in the late 1990s when he became a Scientologist. He claims to have been rapidly appointed member of the inner circle of executives for his talents. Finally he would had been sent to Ireland where he “more or less was head of the Dublin mission”. Meanwhile a speaker of the Irish police confirmed that Markert is currently wanted for theft in Ireland.
Markert gave interviews to “Focus”, ARD, ZDF and other media. The Baden-Wuerttemberg Office for Protection of the Constitution , too, questioned him for several days and was convinced about the correctness of his data to a great extent. When confronted with SWR´s investigations the Office for Protection of the Constitution meanwhile declared that Markert´s information “are considered with caution”.
Voluntarily into psychiatry
But Markert not only deceived sect experts and authorities but also artists. In 2004 he planned the a musical gala with two dozens of performers and rented 40 halls throughout Germany. One staff became suspicious when he showed off to have been on stage even with Glen Close and reported him to the criminal police for fraud which then stopped the whole tour. According to information of the staff’s attorneys he then went to Essen where he admitted himself to psychiatry, the staff said to SWR.
In a catalogue draft of the musical available to SWR, he called himself Chris Markert-Davis and claimed “to have performed as various leading characters in the musical productions of Phantom of the Opera, Sunset Boulevard, Les Miserables and The Beauty and the Beast. With the same photo as in the catalogue he praises himself as an counsellor for life and “doctor of psychology”. Since weeks Markert could not be reached for a comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Makoshack ( talk • contribs) 04:17, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
"In 1995, Caberta took on an active role in controversies related to Scientology in schools in Bjerndrup near the German border". wikipediatrix 16:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
"Caberta is under suspicion of corruption"? Under suspicion by whom? Freedom Magazine? Sounds like a WP:BLP violation, and should be removed. We should also give Market his own entry, leaving, at best, one sentence here.Like.liberation 11:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence on the Markert episode was redundant and had a biasing angle: "In 2007, Caberta found herself explaining her support of an alleged con-man and ex-convict that was representing himself as a former high-ranking member of the Church of Scientology." The claim that the Hamburg Minister of Interior has anything to do with it is not sourced. Removed both.
The following statement that is still in the article is unsourced: "When confronted with SWR's investigations the Office for Protection of the Constitution declared that Markert's information “are considered with caution”." There is no evidence that Markert gave interviews to ARD or ZDF or "other media", except Focus.
Irrelevant references:
Google doesn't find any more reliable sources on Markert's story being a scam than the Morgenpost tabloid and third-party copies of a DDP news wire... -- EnOreg ( talk) 05:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I can't see how the Markert paragraph is relevant to Caberta criticism. It should be removed. It is mostly about Markert, not about Caberta. It does not allege any wrongdoing by her, for example, that she knew of his alleged criminal record. If she didn't know, then she isn't to blame! I see no criticism of Caberta, despite the segment being named "criticism of Caberta". The only link is that she presented Markert at a panel discussion.
What is much more interesting is that scientology has hired Markert for the sea org, while knowing all the things that they accused Markert of having done, shortly after the panel. But that, too, isn't relevant to this article.
If this doesn't get removed, I will report this issue to the
WP:BLP inquisition. And we know all that their decision are often unexpected and tragic. Note also that my comments are not meant to be an endorsement of Markert. (See my questions/comments in his bizarre "No wire hangersDon't you question me, ever!" video on youtube
[2]) --
Tilman (
talk)
15:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Tilman, welcome back. We got rules here, one of them saying do not use talk pages for your agenda. Please do so. 202.64.77.113 ( talk) 00:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
A video shows how some members of the cult harass Ursula Caberta at the airport: http://mediathek.daserste.de/daserste/servlet/content/1407418?pageId=&moduleId=799280&categoryId=&goto=1&show= Пипумбрик ( talk) 07:54, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ursula Caberta/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
*Article needs expansion with additional citations from reputable secondary sources, image... Smee 12:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC). |
Last edited at 12:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:44, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
An editor removed the Scientology classification without explanation. I have restored it. If there is a good reason to remove it, please discuss it here in Talk: Thanks! Damotclese ( talk) 15:09, 16 October 2017 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Ursula Caberta article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
![]() | This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article needs to be expanded with additional citations from reputable secondary sources. I will get to this at some point soon... Smee 12:38, 2 May 2007 (UTC).
Better sources are needed than these, or this material will have to come out, per WP:BLP. Most preferably, for example, secondary sourced citations as opposed to primary sources... Smee 21:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC).
The Sabine Weber letter is hardly what I would consider a "reliable source", nor is the "Menschenrechtsbüro" ("Office for human rights") of scientology - unless it is about what scientology claims. And then there is WP:BLP. -- Tilman 18:01, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The burden of proof applies to the person who wishes to put it in. I do not, I only correct the most obvious falsehoods. Currently, it's poorly sourced and should be deleted per WP:BLP until one of the people who wants to insert it, comes up with a reliable source.
Obviously, scientology isn't a reliable source. For example, scientology claims that she was investigated for bribery ("Bestechung"), while she was only investigated accepting a favour ("Vorteilsnahme"). The difference is that the first is accepting money for something legal, the second is accepting money for something illegal.
Btw, LSI John insists that this 5 year old dismissed case is relevant for Youth for Human Rights International. -- Tilman 16:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
Can information and reputable secondary sourced citations from the German version of this article be utilized to expand this version, and vice versa? Smee 22:58, 8 May 2007 (UTC).
The article states "Ursula Caberta y Diaz (born 1950) is the Commissioner for the Scientology Task Force of the Hamburg Interior Authority. She graduated in political economy in 1950." Please note that her date of birth and the date of her receiving a degree in political economy are the same. Azawalli 21:29, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
On my recent additions I am collecting translations on this story, here are two to start with:
(21 August 2007, SWR website at 11:45am)
Scientology experts deceived by con man
According to SWR information, the supposedly high-ranking dropout of Scientology is a notorious con man. The man was presented to the media by sect experts as a longstanding member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge.
In June this year Christian Markert contacted German authorities in the USA. The 36 year old supposedly seven-year member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge was helped getting out of the organisation.
Shortly later Ursula Caberta (head of the Task Force Scientology, TFS, in Hamburg) presented the man in an event about Scientology to the Berlin CDU faction. Before that the Hamburg ministry of interior had the man flown into Germany. Up to this day Markert is assisted by the TFS as top dropout of Scientology. Market had said to have been a member of Scientology´s interal “intelligence service” called Office of Special Affairs.
In jail for fraud
According to investigation by SWR the 36 year old man was noted many times as a con man; the supposed dropout was even sentenced therefore several times. In the late 1990s he was in prison. The data about his life history are that much contradictory in itself that a longstanding membership and high-ranking duty in Scientology seem to be impossible. In an interview with SWR he said to have studied in the USA in the late 1990s when he became a Scientologist. He claims to have been rapidly appointed member of the inner circle of executives for his talents. Finally he would had been sent to Ireland where he “more or less was head of the Dublin mission”. Meanwhile a speaker of the Irish police confirmed that Markert is currently wanted for theft in Ireland.
Markert gave interviews to “Focus”, ARD, ZDF and other media. The Baden-Wuerttemberg Office for Protection of the Constitution (internal secret service), too, questioned him for several days and was convinced about the correctness of his data to a great extent. When confronted with SWR´s investigations the Office for Protection of the Constitution meanwhile declared that Markert´s information “are considered with caution”.
Voluntarily into psychiatry
But Markert not only deceived sect experts and authorities but also artists. In 2004 he planned the a musical gala with two dozens of performers and rented 40 halls throughout Germany. One staff became suspicious when he showed off to have been on stage even with Glen Close and reported him to the criminal police for fraud which then stopped the whole tour. According to information of the staff’s attorneys he then went to Essen where he admitted himself to psychiatry, the staff said to SWR.
In a catalogue draft of the musical available to SWR, he called himself Chris Markert-Davis and claimed “to have performed as various leading characters in the musical productions of Phantom of the Opera, Sunset Boulevard, Les Miserables and The Beauty and the Beast. With the same photo as in the catalogue he praises himself as an counsellor for life and “doctor of psychology”. Since weeks Markert could not be reached for a comment.
(21 August 2007, SWR website at 7:37pm) Scientology expert dissociating from dropout
Head of the Task Force Scientology Ursula Caberta dissociated from a dropout of the sect who according to information of SWR he is a con man. The supposed “top Scientologist” had also been questioned by the Baden-Wuerttemberg Office for Protection of the Constitution.
She never would have said that 36 year old Christian Markert was a “top Scientologist”, Caberta said to ddp per research of SWR. However she admitted that “the man is assisted like any other dropout”. In a SWR interview in early July the Scientology expert had pointed out to the importance of dropouts for her work where she specifically referred to Markert who according to SWR is a supposed con man. He was presented to the media by sect experts as a longstanding member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge. In June this year Markert contacted German authorities in the USA. As supposedly seven-year member of Scientology with secret insider knowledge he was helped getting out of the organisation. Shortly later Ursula Caberta (head of the Task Force Scientology, TFS, in Hamburg) presented the man in an event about Scientology to the Berlin CDU faction. Before that the Hamburg ministry of interior had the man flown into Germany. Up to this day Markert is assisted by the TFS as top dropout of Scientology. Market had said to have been a member of Scientology´s internal “intelligence service” called Office of Special Affairs.
In jail for fraud
According to investigation by SWR the 36 year old man was noted many times as a con man; the supposed dropout was even sentenced therefore several times. In the late 1990s he was in prison. The data about his life history are that much contradictory in itself that a longstanding membership and high-ranking duty in Scientology seem to be impossible. In an interview with SWR he said to have studied in the USA in the late 1990s when he became a Scientologist. He claims to have been rapidly appointed member of the inner circle of executives for his talents. Finally he would had been sent to Ireland where he “more or less was head of the Dublin mission”. Meanwhile a speaker of the Irish police confirmed that Markert is currently wanted for theft in Ireland.
Markert gave interviews to “Focus”, ARD, ZDF and other media. The Baden-Wuerttemberg Office for Protection of the Constitution , too, questioned him for several days and was convinced about the correctness of his data to a great extent. When confronted with SWR´s investigations the Office for Protection of the Constitution meanwhile declared that Markert´s information “are considered with caution”.
Voluntarily into psychiatry
But Markert not only deceived sect experts and authorities but also artists. In 2004 he planned the a musical gala with two dozens of performers and rented 40 halls throughout Germany. One staff became suspicious when he showed off to have been on stage even with Glen Close and reported him to the criminal police for fraud which then stopped the whole tour. According to information of the staff’s attorneys he then went to Essen where he admitted himself to psychiatry, the staff said to SWR.
In a catalogue draft of the musical available to SWR, he called himself Chris Markert-Davis and claimed “to have performed as various leading characters in the musical productions of Phantom of the Opera, Sunset Boulevard, Les Miserables and The Beauty and the Beast. With the same photo as in the catalogue he praises himself as an counsellor for life and “doctor of psychology”. Since weeks Markert could not be reached for a comment. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Makoshack ( talk • contribs) 04:17, August 24, 2007 (UTC)
"In 1995, Caberta took on an active role in controversies related to Scientology in schools in Bjerndrup near the German border". wikipediatrix 16:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
"Caberta is under suspicion of corruption"? Under suspicion by whom? Freedom Magazine? Sounds like a WP:BLP violation, and should be removed. We should also give Market his own entry, leaving, at best, one sentence here.Like.liberation 11:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence on the Markert episode was redundant and had a biasing angle: "In 2007, Caberta found herself explaining her support of an alleged con-man and ex-convict that was representing himself as a former high-ranking member of the Church of Scientology." The claim that the Hamburg Minister of Interior has anything to do with it is not sourced. Removed both.
The following statement that is still in the article is unsourced: "When confronted with SWR's investigations the Office for Protection of the Constitution declared that Markert's information “are considered with caution”." There is no evidence that Markert gave interviews to ARD or ZDF or "other media", except Focus.
Irrelevant references:
Google doesn't find any more reliable sources on Markert's story being a scam than the Morgenpost tabloid and third-party copies of a DDP news wire... -- EnOreg ( talk) 05:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I can't see how the Markert paragraph is relevant to Caberta criticism. It should be removed. It is mostly about Markert, not about Caberta. It does not allege any wrongdoing by her, for example, that she knew of his alleged criminal record. If she didn't know, then she isn't to blame! I see no criticism of Caberta, despite the segment being named "criticism of Caberta". The only link is that she presented Markert at a panel discussion.
What is much more interesting is that scientology has hired Markert for the sea org, while knowing all the things that they accused Markert of having done, shortly after the panel. But that, too, isn't relevant to this article.
If this doesn't get removed, I will report this issue to the
WP:BLP inquisition. And we know all that their decision are often unexpected and tragic. Note also that my comments are not meant to be an endorsement of Markert. (See my questions/comments in his bizarre "No wire hangersDon't you question me, ever!" video on youtube
[2]) --
Tilman (
talk)
15:29, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Tilman, welcome back. We got rules here, one of them saying do not use talk pages for your agenda. Please do so. 202.64.77.113 ( talk) 00:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
A video shows how some members of the cult harass Ursula Caberta at the airport: http://mediathek.daserste.de/daserste/servlet/content/1407418?pageId=&moduleId=799280&categoryId=&goto=1&show= Пипумбрик ( talk) 07:54, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Ursula Caberta/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
*Article needs expansion with additional citations from reputable secondary sources, image... Smee 12:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC). |
Last edited at 12:39, 2 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:44, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
An editor removed the Scientology classification without explanation. I have restored it. If there is a good reason to remove it, please discuss it here in Talk: Thanks! Damotclese ( talk) 15:09, 16 October 2017 (UTC)