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I'll get to this later. But basically, the dispute is that the view that Ur is Ur is far, far more widespread among scholars and archaeologists today than any theory that ever identified it with Edessa. Also. you have to provide some more kind of source from anyone that says the Biblical Ur was Edessa, I seriously doubt it can be called a "traditional" view in anyone's tradition at any time. ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 14:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The Jewish understanding of the word moladet is "birthplace", despite King James and related translations rendering it as "kindred". Will try a compromise wording. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Easton's Bible Dictionary: Mowledeth (mo-leh'-deth);
Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4138
KJV Word Usage and Count
The translation of "kindred" is far older than King James; the Septuagint does too. Indeed, most of the occurences of the word in the Tanach don't make any sense with any other interpretation. ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 02:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
[2009-1-10 To be corrected: I see the reference to "Babylonian city Camarina", where there is a link to "Camarina". The link is to a city in Sicily, so the link should be deactivated or redirected - Roy M. Kay, Montville, Ohio kayfamily1@windstream.net] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.17.3.96 ( talk) 14:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Ur is, in fact, a misnomer. The city was properly called Urima, and later Uriwa. The designation URU before the name of a city is a Sumerian definitive prefix for city, i.e. "city of ..." In Hebrew, the word UR means flame or fire, not city.
The archeologist who excavated at Ebla, Giovanni Pettinato, was interviewed by B.A.R. on his findings in 1980. While he was in general very non-commital about linking any archeological findings to events in the Bible, he was emphatic about the existence of a city UR IN THE TERRRITORY OF HARRAN: http://members.bib-arch.org/nph-proxy.pl/000000A/http/www.basarchive.org/bswbSearch.asp=3fPubID=3dBSBA&Volume=3d6&Issue=3d5&ArticleID=3d5&UserID=3d0&
BAR: Does the city Ur appear in the territory of Haran in the Ebla tablets? Abraham was born in Ur, and travelled with his father to Haran. P: I remember. BAR: There has been some dispute about where the Biblical Ur is. P: I know. BAR: I wonder if the Ebla tablets shed any light on this. P: We know from the Ebla tablets that a city Ur was surely in northern Mesopotamia. BAR: You know this? P: In the territory of Haran. But that is all we can say. It was a city. If this is the city where Abraham came from 200, 300, or 400 or 500 years later, we don’t I know. BAR: But is this Ur in the territory of Haran? P: Yes. BAR: And it’s referred to as Ur in the territory of Haran? P: Yes. In one tablet, but we have the city itself mentioned often. In one tablet it is mentioned in Haranki, which can mean only in the region, in the territory of Haran. It is important for people to know this.
It should be added that since the most ancient Greek form of Edessa was spelled ORRA or ORROA, and since Edessa is indeed 'in the territory of Harran', it is definitely a prime candidate for Ur. Finally, the word 'Kasdim' is etymologically connected to one personal name in Genesis 22:22, Kesed, a nephew of Abraham and son of Nahor. Nahor, with his family, is explicitly mentioned as living in the vicinity of Haran in Aram Naharayim, and one of his descendants via a brother of Kesed is himself called Aram. I think this, and other information in Genesis about the association of the patriarchs in Northern Mesopotamia, tends to place Ur in that region. --JB
This page is currently a de facto pov fork. Although not necesarrily created this way, This page is always going to be focusing on the "northern ur" theory, because no one would ever think to come to this page unless they already held doubts about normal Ur being Ur of the Chaldees. Adherants to Ur of sumerian fame in the Ur III period would just consider ur of the chaldees to be Ur and go there accordingly. Perhaps the page would be more appropriatly named "Northern Ur Theory" or somthing, since such a page could justifiably be all about Gordon's theory. Thanatosimii 01:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Apparently to distinguish it from similar names (in Hebrew?), the writer of the scripture called it the "Ur of the Chaldees." But it was written down long after Moses left. So long indeed, that the writer did not know that the Chaldees had not lived there "forever." Most scholars today agree that Ur was not inhabited by the Chaldees when any usual chronological Moses lived there. This "little" point about scholarly disagreement should be pointed out somewhere. The fact that not everyone concurs with their assessment can be pointed out indirectly. Student7 ( talk) 12:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
NOT Ur! Böri ( talk) 15:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Someone deleted explanation embedded within the following:
"The Book of Jubilees states that Ur Kaśdim was founded in 1687 Anno Mundi (about 2073 B.C.E.) by "'Ur, son of Keśed", presumably the offspring of Arphaxad, adding that wars began on Earth that same year." The 2073 BCE was deleted.
Of course, most of us don't have calendars with Anno Mundi on them, but rather calendars (see my signature below) with CE, or, in this case BCE. A look at the article Anno Mundi will show base year 0 (or maybe 1) as 3750 to 5500 BCE. 1687 subtracted from one of these two, or an average will yield the BCE number. Which is needed, since it is meaningless without it. Take whichever you like, but put it into modern terminology or it is useless. Student7 ( talk) 23:59, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe this photo was deleted recently due to the fact that its a recently reconstructed "unrepresentative" structure. but don't you think it should be included as it is actually there now regardless of its legitimacy? The structure was built based on an original structure so i don't see harm in including it while making it clear that this whole Abraham connection is made up? i don't see why an image of another alleged site in turkey was included but not this? Aziz1005 ( talk) 01:01, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
I recently removed the following from the end of the lead paragraph:
"Recent archaeology work places the location in present day Nasiriyah, Iraq where the ancient Ziggurat of Ur is located." [1] [2] [3]
The reason I removed it is because it is entirely misleading. Not a single one of the sources address the location of Ur Kasdim; they all refer to archeological work at the Sumerian city of Ur and then mention that Ur is also referenced in the Bible as the birthplace of Abraham. Essentially, this is not new archeology discovering the site of Ur Kasdim or even proving a connection between Ur Kasim and Ur of Sumeria. It was simply archeological work at the already known location of Ur in Sumeria and then mentioning the popular theory that the Ur in Sumeria is the same Ur mentioned in the Bible. I'm preserving the original sentence and references here in case they can be reworked into the article. 108.46.147.132 ( talk) 23:51, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: page moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Guan aco 10:01, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Ur Kaśdim → Ur of the Chaldees – Per WP:COMMONNAME Oncenawhile ( talk) 07:59, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
The Chaldeans only became associated with Southern Mesopotamia due to the expansion of Aramaic-speakers resulting from the decline of Assyria in the centuries around 1000 B.C. So the modifier "of the Chaldees" presupposes a southern Mesopotamian location, but is 500 years or more anachronistic to the period when Abraham would have lived. AnonMoos ( talk) 20:57, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
joshua 24:3 But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan. İndicates was West of the Euphrates. Usernamestress ( talk) 14:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
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I'll get to this later. But basically, the dispute is that the view that Ur is Ur is far, far more widespread among scholars and archaeologists today than any theory that ever identified it with Edessa. Also. you have to provide some more kind of source from anyone that says the Biblical Ur was Edessa, I seriously doubt it can be called a "traditional" view in anyone's tradition at any time. ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 14:28, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
The Jewish understanding of the word moladet is "birthplace", despite King James and related translations rendering it as "kindred". Will try a compromise wording. Kuratowski's Ghost 02:17, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
Easton's Bible Dictionary: Mowledeth (mo-leh'-deth);
Noun Feminine, Strong #: 4138
KJV Word Usage and Count
The translation of "kindred" is far older than King James; the Septuagint does too. Indeed, most of the occurences of the word in the Tanach don't make any sense with any other interpretation. ፈቃደ ( ውይይት) 02:28, 25 December 2005 (UTC)
[2009-1-10 To be corrected: I see the reference to "Babylonian city Camarina", where there is a link to "Camarina". The link is to a city in Sicily, so the link should be deactivated or redirected - Roy M. Kay, Montville, Ohio kayfamily1@windstream.net] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.17.3.96 ( talk) 14:42, 10 January 2009 (UTC)
Ur is, in fact, a misnomer. The city was properly called Urima, and later Uriwa. The designation URU before the name of a city is a Sumerian definitive prefix for city, i.e. "city of ..." In Hebrew, the word UR means flame or fire, not city.
The archeologist who excavated at Ebla, Giovanni Pettinato, was interviewed by B.A.R. on his findings in 1980. While he was in general very non-commital about linking any archeological findings to events in the Bible, he was emphatic about the existence of a city UR IN THE TERRRITORY OF HARRAN: http://members.bib-arch.org/nph-proxy.pl/000000A/http/www.basarchive.org/bswbSearch.asp=3fPubID=3dBSBA&Volume=3d6&Issue=3d5&ArticleID=3d5&UserID=3d0&
BAR: Does the city Ur appear in the territory of Haran in the Ebla tablets? Abraham was born in Ur, and travelled with his father to Haran. P: I remember. BAR: There has been some dispute about where the Biblical Ur is. P: I know. BAR: I wonder if the Ebla tablets shed any light on this. P: We know from the Ebla tablets that a city Ur was surely in northern Mesopotamia. BAR: You know this? P: In the territory of Haran. But that is all we can say. It was a city. If this is the city where Abraham came from 200, 300, or 400 or 500 years later, we don’t I know. BAR: But is this Ur in the territory of Haran? P: Yes. BAR: And it’s referred to as Ur in the territory of Haran? P: Yes. In one tablet, but we have the city itself mentioned often. In one tablet it is mentioned in Haranki, which can mean only in the region, in the territory of Haran. It is important for people to know this.
It should be added that since the most ancient Greek form of Edessa was spelled ORRA or ORROA, and since Edessa is indeed 'in the territory of Harran', it is definitely a prime candidate for Ur. Finally, the word 'Kasdim' is etymologically connected to one personal name in Genesis 22:22, Kesed, a nephew of Abraham and son of Nahor. Nahor, with his family, is explicitly mentioned as living in the vicinity of Haran in Aram Naharayim, and one of his descendants via a brother of Kesed is himself called Aram. I think this, and other information in Genesis about the association of the patriarchs in Northern Mesopotamia, tends to place Ur in that region. --JB
This page is currently a de facto pov fork. Although not necesarrily created this way, This page is always going to be focusing on the "northern ur" theory, because no one would ever think to come to this page unless they already held doubts about normal Ur being Ur of the Chaldees. Adherants to Ur of sumerian fame in the Ur III period would just consider ur of the chaldees to be Ur and go there accordingly. Perhaps the page would be more appropriatly named "Northern Ur Theory" or somthing, since such a page could justifiably be all about Gordon's theory. Thanatosimii 01:28, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Apparently to distinguish it from similar names (in Hebrew?), the writer of the scripture called it the "Ur of the Chaldees." But it was written down long after Moses left. So long indeed, that the writer did not know that the Chaldees had not lived there "forever." Most scholars today agree that Ur was not inhabited by the Chaldees when any usual chronological Moses lived there. This "little" point about scholarly disagreement should be pointed out somewhere. The fact that not everyone concurs with their assessment can be pointed out indirectly. Student7 ( talk) 12:37, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
NOT Ur! Böri ( talk) 15:04, 12 March 2012 (UTC)
Someone deleted explanation embedded within the following:
"The Book of Jubilees states that Ur Kaśdim was founded in 1687 Anno Mundi (about 2073 B.C.E.) by "'Ur, son of Keśed", presumably the offspring of Arphaxad, adding that wars began on Earth that same year." The 2073 BCE was deleted.
Of course, most of us don't have calendars with Anno Mundi on them, but rather calendars (see my signature below) with CE, or, in this case BCE. A look at the article Anno Mundi will show base year 0 (or maybe 1) as 3750 to 5500 BCE. 1687 subtracted from one of these two, or an average will yield the BCE number. Which is needed, since it is meaningless without it. Take whichever you like, but put it into modern terminology or it is useless. Student7 ( talk) 23:59, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
I believe this photo was deleted recently due to the fact that its a recently reconstructed "unrepresentative" structure. but don't you think it should be included as it is actually there now regardless of its legitimacy? The structure was built based on an original structure so i don't see harm in including it while making it clear that this whole Abraham connection is made up? i don't see why an image of another alleged site in turkey was included but not this? Aziz1005 ( talk) 01:01, 20 May 2016 (UTC)
I recently removed the following from the end of the lead paragraph:
"Recent archaeology work places the location in present day Nasiriyah, Iraq where the ancient Ziggurat of Ur is located." [1] [2] [3]
The reason I removed it is because it is entirely misleading. Not a single one of the sources address the location of Ur Kasdim; they all refer to archeological work at the Sumerian city of Ur and then mention that Ur is also referenced in the Bible as the birthplace of Abraham. Essentially, this is not new archeology discovering the site of Ur Kasdim or even proving a connection between Ur Kasim and Ur of Sumeria. It was simply archeological work at the already known location of Ur in Sumeria and then mentioning the popular theory that the Ur in Sumeria is the same Ur mentioned in the Bible. I'm preserving the original sentence and references here in case they can be reworked into the article. 108.46.147.132 ( talk) 23:51, 5 June 2016 (UTC)
References
The result of the move request was: page moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Guan aco 10:01, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
Ur Kaśdim → Ur of the Chaldees – Per WP:COMMONNAME Oncenawhile ( talk) 07:59, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
The Chaldeans only became associated with Southern Mesopotamia due to the expansion of Aramaic-speakers resulting from the decline of Assyria in the centuries around 1000 B.C. So the modifier "of the Chaldees" presupposes a southern Mesopotamian location, but is 500 years or more anachronistic to the period when Abraham would have lived. AnonMoos ( talk) 20:57, 21 April 2022 (UTC)
joshua 24:3 But I took your father Abraham from the land beyond the Euphrates and led him throughout Canaan. İndicates was West of the Euphrates. Usernamestress ( talk) 14:54, 29 October 2023 (UTC)