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The format of the table is consistent with a number of other articles on Ontario private/independent schools, namely: Appleby College, Community Hebrew Academy of Toronto, Lakefield College School, St. Clement's School, and Trinity College School. Only one has the format you propose: St. Andrew's College (Aurora, Ontario). Whether you find your proposal more aesthetically pleasing is pretty much a matter of POV, so I think it's best to stick to the most common format to maintain some kind of continuity amongst the articles. Is there a standard for this type of thing anyway?
And, as an aside, UCC has never been a denominational school. -- gbambino 17:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It is originally Anglican. Also, the fact that most other private schools in Ontario isn't really consequential - most of those articles are barely anything at all anyway. There is no standard table, no. User Synflame 19:30, 6 February 2006.
Is it really the cookie monster? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Guys, it is NOT the Cookie Monster. Let me introduce you to Intellectual Property Law 101. Intellectual Property Law 101? Meet Gbambino and CambridgeBayWeather. CambridgeBayWeather and Gbambino? Meet Intellectual Property Law 101. IPL101 has whispered something in your ears, it is this: "The mascot for UCC is not the Cookie Monster because UCC has not licensed the rights to use the Cookie Monster from Sesame Workshop, a non-profit with world-wide exclusive ownership of the Cookie Monster brand". Next you two will be saying the mascot for UCC is Mickey Mouse....
I would have read the article if you had provided the right link. Before doing so it appeared you were making up utter nonsense. But, you still haven't provided evidence that it is actually the mascot. I'm not specifically asserting that it isn't (and it seems to contiune to slip over your comprehension that I never did attest to knowing for sure what the mascot is), but frankly, without proof that "O RLY owl" is, I'm removing it from the table until it can be confirmed by other sources. Nothing personal, just trying to be factually accurate. -- gbambino 22:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor: please review Wikipedia's guidelines on
Civility. Sarcasm and condescension ae not a good way of getting your point across. It is more effective to try to work with other editors than to piss them off. Thanks.
Ground Zero |
t 04:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Re. Barton: I went to UCC from '83 to '94 and don't remember any such comment. Provide a more viable source. As well, provide proof he was heterosexual.
Re. Motek: Remember the guy, but don't remember the essay. You say it's in the '91 Times, but strangely in the article you put '88. I'll check both my copies at home.
Re. photos in yearbook: The presence of predominantly "white" faces in the yearbook photos is not proof of systematic racism at UCC. It may well be the concequence of the fact that upper middle class and upper class Toronto society through those decades was predominantly "white." As well you can't necessarily tell someone's ethnicity just by how they look - do all Jews look different to Anglo-Europeans, or Eastern Europeans? -- gbambino 22:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Have anything substantial to contribute? Or do you just have a personal grudge against the school? Regardless, learn to work with more than just base generalizations. Self-improvement is a good thing. -- gbambino 22:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Please review the Wikipedia policy on No personal attacks. These comments are not acceptable on Wikipedia. Ground Zero | t 04:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Yo, Gambino, you're selecting deleting anything unsourced that you do not like. I can play that game to. Watch.
Try reading the sources provided and you'll note that everything in the article already is cited. Keep up your childish antics though, they're highly entertaining. -- gbambino 23:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Can I ask what exactly it is you want to achieve here? -- gbambino 23:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I hope that clarifies everything for you. -- gbambino 17:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Please review Wikipedia:No legal threats, which is an official Wikipedia policy. Thank you. Ground Zero | t 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Every graduate of note can't be included in the article - hence the separate page at List of Upper Canada College alumni. Besides, I've done a few searches on the Jay Hodgson Group, and came up with nothing substantial - no newpaper or magazine articles, just that Hodgson is currently completing his PhD. I've no real issue with him being included on the Alum page, but I think, in comparison to the other graduates noted in that list, more proof of his noteriety is needed. There are tons of semi-successful UCC graduates who aren't listed because they're just not all that great in comparison to the Order of Canada winners, knighs, CEOs, Chairmans, Cabinet Minsters, Lieutenant Governors, etc. -- gbambino 23:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable - I'll ask again: How is the band notable? I'm not saying you're wrong, but where's the evidence? As I said, I did a search on both Google and Yahoo, and got next to nothing - one mention of Hodgosn completing his PhD in music. If the Jay Hodgson Group was really that notable, don't you think there'd be more info on them out there - like Jim Cuddy and Blue Rodeo for example? Anyway, the two are on the List of Upper Canada College alumni page now - why can't you just leave it at that? -- gbambino 16:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Fine with me 66.208.54.226 19:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I have semi-protected this page, which means that it cannot be edited by anonymous and newly-registered users. I have taken this action because an anonymous editor has been deleting large portions of text to illustrate a point, which is contrary to Wikipedia:Etiquette. In so he doing, he/she also appears to have violated the Three-revert rule, which is an official policy of Wikipedia. I encourage the editor to take some time off from this article to review Wikipedia policies and guidelines in order to learn how to work with other editors to improve articles, and how to avoid edit wars, which are a waste of everybody's time. Ground Zero | t 23:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I am an Administrator, so I have special powers to protect articles, see through walls, fly, and, well, actually not so much the last two, but I can protect articles, block users, and do a few other things. If, for example, the actions that led to the semi-protection had been done by a registered user, I could have blocked the user from editing for a period of time. Semi-protection and protection are done with some frequency to protect Wikipedia from vandalism and to help resolve edit wars. Ground Zero | t 23:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The word is "hypocrisy". The three-revert rule does not apply inthe case of vandalism. Your large-scale deletions were vandalism because you were disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. For example, you removed references in the first paragraph to UCC being a private school, and all other description but "UCC is a school" not to improve the article, but to make a point. If someone challenges you to provide a source, the way to respond -- and this really is how things work on Wikipedia -- is to provide a source. Responding by blanking out large portions of text becuase you don't want to defend your actions is vandalism. I have been around Wikipedia long enough to be made an administrator, so I do know how things work here. And, often, I have learned by making mistakes. We all do. So please don't consider this an attack on you. I just want to encourage you to learn more bout this great project by reviewing its policies and guidelines. I've linked a few above to get you started. By learning about the policies and guidelines, you can be more effective in contributing to Wikipedia, and avoid messy confrontations like this. Ground Zero | t 04:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is another policy that you can review to start learning about how Wikipedia works: No personal attacks. We do our best to be civil here. Your comemnts are not appropriate. Again, we all make mistakes when we first start off, so you're not alone in these transgressions. Making mistakes is how we learn. Ground Zero | t 04:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to stir up the pot here, and please correct me if I am WAY off base (again, I'm new), but all this seems contrary to the *interactive* nature of wikipedia. I've been following these posts (am an old boy, so interested) and it would seem that there is one particular user who is working to ensure that any edits made by anonymous users, which do not meet *his/her* rather than Wikipedia's standards, are erased. I don't mean to point fingers, but one of the users (I keep seeing the handle "Gbambino") seems to me to be abusing his position somewhat, as he is constantly reverting any changes of, what seemed to me, at least, to be viable additions to this article (particularly on UCC and ethnicity). I appreciate that you are the site administrator, and I was wondering if you could tell me why this is allowed to occur, before I give up on contributing to this page before even starting? I'm actually worried that if I add *anything*, my work will be deleted. -- Unsigned comment by User:WormwoodJagger
I am not intervening here in defence of Gbambino. I have locked horns with him on other occasions, and I do not see eye to eye with him on a lot of things. I intervened to stop a senseless edit war between a regular editor and one or two new users. One of the new users made it clear above that he is trying to promote his own particular point of view ("I want to expose that UCC was not a racist-free playground"), rather than trying to achieve a Neutral point of view, which is what we aim for. I am not arguing that Gbambino's edits are neutral either. I'll start picking my way through the arguments on both sides over the next couple of days to try to figure out what -- if any -- of the anon contributions should be incorporated into the article. The most effective way to improve articles on Wikipedia is to work toward compromise, which was not happening. Revert wars are just a waste of time and bandwidth.
I am not "the" site administrator -- I am "an" administrator. There are many of us.
I am going to try to mediate between the different points of view here. You should be aware that not all of your edits will remain here unaltered. As it says at the bottom of every edit page: Please note: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.
Finally, please sign your edits by typing four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This makes it easier for everyone to be able to follow who wrote what. Thanks, and welcome to Wikipedia. Ground Zero | t 04:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've reviewed some of the edit warring that was going on. There have been several points of contention:
If there are other issues that I have missed, please list them below and I'll try to sort them out. Ground Zero | t 04:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The four tildes work -- your IP number shows up. As far as I can tell, of the threee "facts", Gbambino has accepted one -- the Mostek story. Whether or not the Barton story is evidence of racism is debatable. It sounds like a pretty silly story for the principal to tell, but not evidence of serious racism. As far as looking at the yearbooks and seeing white faces, that is not evidence of institutionalized racism either. Were non-whites screened out because the school had a quota on non-whites? Or were they screened out by society's failure to grant them the financial and educational opportunities that are generally a pre-requisite for admission to UCC, and society's racism is what contributes to a mostly white student body, not UCC's racism. Finally, I've made myself clear on on the question of verifiability. You are clearly not questioning Gbambino's edits because you think they are incorrect, but simply to make a point because you are angry that he has asked you to provide sources for your edits. You can appeal to another Administrator if you think I am being unreasonable about this. Ground Zero | t 05:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I've come here because User:68.50.242.120 requested my input as an advocate. Please offer 68 some help in expressing his efforts to introduce discussion about the POV he feels is underrepresented in the article. In the name of welcoming newcomers, I'd like all to consider backing off a little on the patronising and stirring. It's much easier to maintain your cool when you've been here for a while and you have experience of how things unfold. It's much easier to tolerate insults when you've been around.
If anyone would like an outsiders opinion on some of the editorial issues, I can also make a couple of comments on that. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 06:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Point taken. Metta, if there is anything that you think that I could have done better, please let me know. Ground Zero | t 12:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
“The fact is that Gambino is a Vice Chairman of the Monarchist League of Canada, “
The fact that he has political views does not mean that his edits are, by definition, biased. We all have biases, and we should do our best to exclude them from our edits. Let’s discuss the bias of Gbambino’s edits, and not assume that all of his edits are inherently biased.
We’re not in a Court of Law here, we are applying policies. No-one is getting away with a crime here. If all of Gbambino’s edits for which he has not provided evidence were removed as you wish, the article would be a shell of its current self. The Wikipedia article on UCC would be diminshed so that you can make a point about how you don’t feel you should be challenged on your edits. That is not how the policies on verifiability are intended to be used. If verfiability were as strictly applied thoroughout as you have requested for this article, we would have to remove 90-95% of the content of Wikipedia. Again, it is fair for Gbambino or anyone else to request a reference for anything being added to an article to in order to ensure that it is an improvement. But deleting large blocks of text to prove your point does not improve the article.
I’ll take a look at the weasel words issue that you raise. Please accept that there have been a lot of edits and I haven’t followed all of them. If I have missed something, it is because I am human and have only limited volunteer time available for this project, not because I am choosing to overlook things. What are the particular weasel words that you are concerned about?
“I am most disturbed that a seemingly "neutral" Admin would just come right out and say "I refuse to enforce the rules of Wiki to which I am bound cause I don't like you."”
I didn’t say that. I have solicited the attention of other administrators to help resolve this because I accept that you do not see me as being impartial on this. We will have to wait for the input of others to resolve this. Ground Zero | t 15:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You and I are not going to be able to resolve this on our own. We're just going around in circles. Let's wait to see what others think. I have responded to your valid concerns about weasal words below.
I was unaware of your problems with CBW. I will ask User:HOTR, instead, if you agree to having him comment. Ground Zero | t 16:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Two things I know about: Architecture and monarchy. Big surprise that I should contribute information that is in one way or another related to those two things. Strange, though, that you don't note a bias within my edits about the history of the school in relation to the government of Ontario and UofT, nor my edits about the UCC Cadets, nor my edits about the arts, nor... well I'm sure you get the point. Instead of trying to undermine my character, put more effort into adding what you know about into the article(s), and make some attempt to make it credible. I'd much rather that than these silly, childish cat-fights. -- gbambino 17:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, will you accept User:HOTR as an unbiased administrator. I do not know if he will agree to take on this task, but if you agree, I can ask him, or you can ask him yourself. Ground Zero | t 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I am fine with User:HOTR 66.208.54.226 18:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I have taken a look at the wording in this section based on User:68's comments and found it to be both POV and containing weasel words as User:68 identifies. I have tried to improve it, but it needs further work. In particular, the reference to non-white students representing a substantial portion of the class should be substantiated, otherwise it is just conjecture, and should be removed. What does "substantial" mean? Could someone with a recent yearbook do a head-count of the leaving class so that we can have a firm number, rather than something open to interpretation? I have also removed "multi-millionaire" and "jet-setting" as being non-neutral. I think that the replacement wording gets the same point across without the prejudicial words. Ground Zero | t 16:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
In the context of a higschool yearbook editorial, at a school which is now being theorized for its "codes of silence" by student poststructural commentators in academe, it is *miraculous* that Sherman should have been able to publish even this "aside," which nonetheless verifies that, in his opinion (which the school esteemed enough to grant him the position to write the ediotieal), he experineced "anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bereaucracy" at the school. More care and thought should go into your response, I feel, than such a dismissive line as this:"Hardly an exposé on insidious racism" -- not conducive to open dialogue. This is baiting, obviously. Are you two playing some kind of troll game? 129.128.238.84 17:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
As I've stated before, the absence of blacks or other races is not proof of racism at UCC, but of racism in our society that results in these groups not having the educational and/or financial opportunites that are need to get into UCC. Drawing the conclusion that there isinstitutionalized racism at UCC based on this observatio alone would be POV in my opinion. Ground Zero | t 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to weigh in here.
Are you seriously trying to argue, Ground Zero, that although a country or society may be racist, one of its leading educational institutions which, in your own words (or at least Wikipedia article), has "educated many of the country's elite, powerful and wealthy" is not racist because the school did not create a lack of "educational and/or financial opportunities"? Fine. Then what about a more "neutral" statement such as, "In its history, Upper Canada College has never graduated a class which is even remotely representative of Toronto's population, demographically speaking." Then readers can say, "Oh well, maybe that's not because of racial profiling on the part of the school - maybe it's just reflective of a lack of 'educational and/or financial opportunities' in a broader social context".
The reason you won't allow user 66.208.54.226 to put in his observations about the yearbooks is because you know that's pure tripe. Res ipsa loquitur: in law that means, "the fact speaks for itself". And the fact that you will not find more than a token representation of blacks or other minorities in any UCC yearbook "speaks for itself". If you somehow maintain that the fact is ambiguous and open to interpretation, then leave it in and let the reader be the judge. The fact that you are so hell bent on excluding it suggests the contrary, however.
Need moderator assistance here please. I don't know how to argue with someone who is going to argue black is white and white is black. I just want the #s published without sabotage, squelching or a cover-up. Let people draw their own conclusions. 19:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You raise some good points, and I've edited the section to hopefully rid it of some of the bias you mention. In regards to the inclusion of the early examples of minorities attending the school, I think that if we are to include the school's reputation as a WASP institution (which I believe is true), then we should also mention that the school has always admitted minorities into its enrolment (which I believe is also true). Perhaps "Ethnicity" isn't the best heading for the section. -- gbambino 22:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
If the article discusses racism and/or anti-semitism at UCC it should reflect existing citations rather than try to conduct original research into demographics. Wasn't there a book published recently consisting of essays by UCC grads, at least one of whom reflected on his experiences of anti-Semitism? That sort of information can be referenced as can published statistics (if there are any) on the racial composition of UCC. However, we should be careful to put in notable examples of what would now be called anti-racism by UCC such as allowing in Jewish refugees (most notably Peter C. Newman) as students at a time when many private schools were "restricted". I don't know if UCC has racist admission practices or not - we shouldn't speculate. If there is evidence that they might, whether it be, say, complaints to the Human Rights Commission, lawsuits, complaints by anti-racist groups or published recollections by individuals then we can include this. If it's just a perception by editors that pictures of UCC classes look awfully white, that's POV. Homey 22:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Metta Bubble for your assistance. I will submit feedback on your talk page and restate a summary of my outstanding objections on this article sometime tomorrow. 66.208.54.226 03:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think I'm a mediator per se (I'm not a member of the mediation committee in any case). I'm happy to give my opinion, FWIW. I'm really not clear on what specifically this dispute is about. Can someone point me to some edit diffs that show what phrases/points are in contention? Homey 04:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I might venture to say that the dispute revolves around 66.208.54.226's insertion of the following points on March 13:
66.208.54.226's actions include:
I have made the effort to find the actual source of his insertion about Motek Sherman, and this has been included in the article. Other words on UCC's demographics and anti-Semitism have been inserted as well. -- gbambino 05:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The list of violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines should only be viewed as a list of areas where the new user should reconsider his/her approach to editing and as a list of Wikipedia articles he/she should review in order to learn more about how to work in Wikipedia.
New users almost always make mistakes of this sort. It takes a while to learn how to use Wikipedia, and we have to give new users a fair degree of slack, while nudging them firmly in the direction of the conformance with Wikipedia norms.
This is why it would be very useful for the new user(s) to register with Wikipedia and make their contributions while logged in. This makes it easier for other users to communicate directly with the new users and help them learn how things are done here. The Wikipedia policies and guidelines are designed to help users work together collaboratively to improve Wikipedia, and avoid the confrontation and acrimony that I am confident has been vexing to participants on all sides here.
I want to point out to the new user(s) that several changes have been made to the article by other other parties to reflect valid points that you have raised. And I think that Gbmbino has demonstrated good faith by providing references for a large number of the 96 points that you have raised.
I want to assure the new user(s) that Wikipedia editing is only rarely this contentious -- Wikipedia is usually and fun and educatoinal experience for users. Please join us by registering. Ground Zero | t 12:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have 2 outstanding objections to the article:
Allow me to go into more detail on each point.
1. UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS:
2. ADMIN REJECTION OF WIKI POLICY:
1. UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS:
VERIFIABILITY NEEDED FOR COPYRIGHT COMPLIANCE: Gbambino has included other sources, not just the one book. I have reviewed the link provided by the anon user, and in my opinion, Gbambino’s work does not violate the rules set out there.
2. ADMIN REJECTION OF WIKI POLICY:
ADMIN REJECTS VERIFIABILITY POLICY: I do not reject the verifiability policy. I reject the rigorous and absolute application of it that the anon user is demanding because the anon user is not demanding it to improve the article or to remove parts hat he questions. He is doing so in order to make a point. This is disruptive to Wikipedia, and would not improve the article. Gbambino has demonstrated good faith by sourcing many of the 96 items. Gbambino and I have both made changes to the article to reflect the anon user’s problems with the article where we have concluded that he was raising good points.
I semi-protected the article in order to stop the revert war that was going on. I have invited other administrators to try to help resolve the dispute. One of these administrators I invited only after getting the agreement of the anon editor. Neither of these administrators has seen fit to lift the semi-protection. I also posted a general request for assistance in resolving this dispute on the administrators’ notice board. It does not appear that any other administrator has chosen to participate, however. In addition, I asked a member’s advocate, MetaBubble, who was intervening on behalf o the anon editor, to provide advice on my response to the situation. S/he did not find fault with my actions in this dispute. If other administrators or advocates have advice for me on how I could have handled this better, I would be pleased to hear it.
REMEDY RECOMMENDED: There is a process for demoting administrators. I do not know if unregistered users can nominate admins for demotion or not. The anon user, or a registered user working on his or her behalf, may choose to pursue this if s/he chooses. If I understand the process correctly, and I don’t guarantee that I do, admin demotions can only be done through Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Before we get to arbitration, however, we would have to take this to a formal Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. If that fails, it could then go to arbitration and demotion could be considered by the Arbitration Committee. Ground Zero | t 16:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have now provided a source for the "oldest school in Ontario" point. Now maybe you can demonstrate good faith by doing one yourself. Ground Zero | t 19:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
1. UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS:
2. ADMIN REJECTION OF WIKI POLICY:
Have you even bothered to look at a copy of the book? Have you compared the contents of Howard's 300+ page history of UCC to what's in this article? I think I know the answer based on your ridiculous assertion that this free Wikipedia article renders purchasing the book obsolete. Stop wasting our time. -- gbambino 18:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia. I have followed this dispute and the resulting posts on the UCC page with some interest. I am an old boy of the school. Yesterday I intervened in this dialogue to support what I perceived to be a valid point by user 68. I don't personally know any of the parties to this dispute and am unfamiliar with the hierarchy at Wikipedia (Admins, User advocates, etc.). What I do know is that in response to my comments, user Ground Zero had the following to say: "please stop trying to say what I believe. You really don't do a very good job at all of interpreting my comments."
I would point out that this was the first and only time that I had posted any comments. What I find disturbing about Ground Zero's commentary is that it illustrates precisely the problem with this ongoing dialogue: it is no longer about attempting to create an objective entry about an important subject in the style of an on-line encyclopedia. It is now about personal biases and POVs.
I have read the current posting of the UCC article on "Ethnicity". I assume this reflects the latest changes by gBambino. While, to his credit, it does now include reference to racism and prejudices exprienced by old boys, an objective observer cannot help but be left with the impression that these problems are now fixed and of no consequence. You are all educated people - to suggest otherwise is really nothing more than an exercise in semantics.
It is a shame - and I direct these comments to Meta Bubble because it is the only party that seems to have a balanced and objective voice in this discussion - but it is evident that this process has been hijacked by gBambino and Ground Zero. If you want to create an article that expresses their personal views about UCC, then you can congratulate yourselves. Mission accomplished. But this is not an article that would appear in any respected printed publication. 38.112.100.158 18:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I hate to do this GroundZero and Gbambino, since it seems like you are getting it from all sides here by people who are outraged about something outside of your work on this page, but there are two points I'd raise in response to this. First, it would seem that there is a POV creeping into the Ethnicity section. You do, indeed, cite, but you contextualize your citations within an obvious point of view. In the following passage, the term "however" should probably be exised to maintain objectivity:
Motek Sherman, the editor of the school's yearbook The College Times in 1990, wrote an editorial stating that while UCC was no longer "a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal... In my years at UCC I have faced anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bureaucracy." [13] However, diplomat James George, a student between 1926 and 1936, said upon reflection about his time with other UCC graduates in the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs: "If UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASP patriots, why did it produce so many internationalists?" [14]
Furthermore, I'm not sure that citing someone's POV on their experience at a school which predates what precedes the citation by almost a full half century is really all that relevant. The implication is that the final citation refutes or even balances what precedes the citation. Is the citation relevant? I'm not sure how it fits.
Secondly: As for the question of "hijacking" the page. I would simply note that -- I'm sure in good faith -- since the semi-protection, only GroundZero and Gbambino have consistently edited the page. This does seem a tad one-sided.
I suppose my abiding interest here is not simply in Wikipedia's standards -- since reading an article, I've been interested in this experiment -- but, more to the point, how those standards are applied. As an old boy, I happened upon this article, and am now following this debate with only this in mind (I am yet to be convinced that UCC is racist, or that Sherman's comments were anything more than the overstated position of a young man).
This all said, I think everyone's work here is commendable, as the tone has certainly resided from virulence to reasoned debate now. WormwoodJagger 20:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The grammar and style will certainly have to be fixed. But I think this is a much more objective approach. 38.112.100.158 20:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What a bunch of hogwash. Just old boys slapping themselves on the back. Hope you feel better about disregarding user 66/68s legitimate comments about failing to adhere to your own policies. Funny. What I despised about UCC is exactly what I despise about this forum: pretending to be objective when you are anything but! 38.112.100.158 20:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you please indicate in what way you think the ethnicity section of the article as it now stands is not objective so that we can discuss that? Thanks. Ground Zero | t 21:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, Ground Zero. As may be evident by the sudden shift in tone, that was not me but a colleague of mine. I stand by my earlier comments. 38.112.100.158 21:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
WormwoodJagger: This all said, I think everyone's work here is commendable, as the tone has certainly resided from virulence to reasoned debate now. ROFL. Do you call the personal attacks and violations of assume good faith used against me by Ground Zero and gbambino as "reasoned debate"? Personally, I want to make personal attacks and not assume good faith against you, but that would be a violation of Wiki policy. Too bad it applies to me but not Ground Zero or gbambino.... 66.208.54.226 21:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
66.208.54.226: Given your record on this page, you don't have a leg to stand on! GroundZero and Gbambino have done their best, repeatedly, to accomodate your position with regards to UCC and ethnicity IN THE CONTEXT OF WIKIPEDIA! If, as you write, Wiki policy applies to you but not to GroundZero or Gbambino, why not register? unsigned comment by User:WormwoodJagger
Good! It would seem, then, that we can now unblock the page!
WormwoodJagger 15:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Wormwood, I don't follow your logic, and I do not think it would be appropriate to unprotect the page. The anon user has not shown that s/he understands all of the problems that s/he has caused or the inapprpriateness of his/her behaviour on many of the points that have been raised. I think that unprotecting now would return us to a counter-productive revert war. I recognize, however, that I am too close to this matter to be completely objective, and would respect the decision of another admin to unprotect. Ground Zero | t 15:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
GroundZero: so that's where this commetn went. Sorry, see below. WormwoodJagger 16:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Some relevant points from Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point:
There is a direct parallel between this example and what User:66/68 has been doing. After Gbambino removed texzt that the anon user had added and requested a source for the additions, the anon user removed large portions of text and insisted that they be sourced, including really obvious bits like UCC being located in Toronto.
This is the basis for semi-protection of the article. because the anon user is not registered and edits from different IP numbers, it is not possible to block him/her. Semi-protection, unfortunately, prevents other unregistered users from editing, but protects Wikipedia from 66/68's disruptive behaviour. Ground Zero | t 22:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Re the following passages (comments interspersed):
Comment: the use of "scare quotes" is unencyclopedic. One should only use quotation marks when one is referencing a real quotation, not for emphasis, sarcasm or to make a rhetorical point. Second, the reference to "token Black, Asian, Amerind and Jewish students" is a POV. If you can find a source that uses the term "token" to describe these students then reference it. Otherwise, its the editor's opinion an shouldn't be in the article. I would not be surprised to learn that the phrase "bastion of WASP privilege" has been used to describe UCC (indeed, it's a phrase I could easily have used myself) but a) if it's an actual quotation then there should be a reference b) if it's the editor's opinion it shoudn't be included unless there is a reference to back it up. Addendum I see that "bastion of WASP privilege" is now footnoted as an honest to goodness quotation. Good.
Comment:The phrase "deep-seated insidious racism" is POV. Cite an actual use of this phrase to describe UCC or drop it.
Comment:1) a source is needed. 2) wikipedia articles are not argumentative essays so they should not be written as such. 3) "wealthy heterosexual white male" belabours the point. In any case, I think readers can deduce on their own that Barton is white from the rest of the paragaraph. 4)calling him heterosexual makes an assumption beyond the reach of wikipedia.
If there is a citation for Barton having made the statement, I think the above bullet should be rewritten to read something along the lines of:
Comment': I haven't read the essay so I can't say if the term "institutional racism" is Sherman's analysis or that of the editor. If the latter, it shouldn't be used.
Comment: This looks like original research to me. Also, I seriously doubt the methodology of counting the number of Jews by looking at a photograph just as I'd doubt anyone who says they can count the number of Catholics by this method. Unless UCC had a policy of forcing Jews to wear yellow stars on their clothing I don't see how this can be done. Or is the editor asserting that some students "look Jewish"? If so, I would challenge his credibility when it comes to calling others on their racism. (Note: Various anti-Semitic regimes have forced Jews to adorn special clothing precisely because there is no reliable way of identifying who is and who is not a Jew by sight - at least not without violating public nudity laws and that method only works for men in some cultures where circumcision is uncommon.) Homey 23:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
"I have read the current posting of the UCC article on "Ethnicity". I assume this reflects the latest changes by gBambino. While, to his credit, it does now include reference to racism and prejudices exprienced by old boys, an objective observer cannot help but be left with the impression that these problems are now fixed and of no consequence. You are all educated people - to suggest otherwise is really nothing more than an exercise in semantics."
I agree, the section should not be written with the assumption that racism has been eradicated at UCC or even that it's no worse at UCC then it is elsewhere - unless an objective and verifiable study backs that up, such a claim is POV. Similarly, to imply that because x, y and z have been done racism no longer exists would be original research. I don't think we can proceed on the assumption that there is no racism at UCC until and unless evidence comes up to the contrary. Nor should we assume that racism is worse at UCC than elsewhere. We simply should not have a POV on the matter. Reading the section it's not clear to me that there is an assumption contained within that racism has been eradicated. There's simply a statement about a diversity council being established without any claim that this solves the problem. If there are more recent examples of racism or anti-Semitism at UCC then they should be excluded but I don't think we can not mention the diversity council simply because of the lack of countervaling evidence for racism. Was there a reaction to the council's formation? Criticism by UCC or members of the student body? Letters to the school paper decrying this as "political correctness"? If so, this should be included. Homey 23:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Resolving disputes
Just a note to those who are insisting that the anon IP must register. Such a position is not wikipedia policy. Edits should be taken on their own merits and there is no rule stating that editors must register (though there are rules concerning registered editors who use anon IPs as Sock puppets). However, anon IPs should be aware that their edits are generally seen as being less credible by editors than registered users and their edits are more likely to be scrutinized by other editors and admins. Also, due to recent problems with vandalism, wikipedia has instituted a semi-protection policy where some anon IPs can be excluded from certain articles for a time while registered users remain free to edit them thus, in a number of ways, anon IPs are "second class" users in practice even if this is not the case in policy. Homey 02:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Anon,
Wow, there's been a lot of talking here. I sincerely hope you are reading the links to policy and advice pages I am including for you. I read your list of desires. It was 1) Verifiability 2) Admin reprimanding. Did you also want to address 3) Racism at UCC? Can you please clarify this? I have some observations of your strategies for getting your desires:
1) Verifiability
2) Admin reprimanding
3) UCC Racism
I hope you follow my advice as I advocate towards your stated objectives. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 02:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, that went well... -- gbambino 04:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
68.50.242.120 05:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You know:
Before I came along, this is what UCC had to say about Ethnicity:
(under the "Today" section}
Unlike many other Canadian independent schools, UCC has a long history of ethnic students since its founding. The first black student appeared in 1831, the first Jewish student in 1836 and the first aboriginal student in 1840. Today, students from about 18 countries attend UCC, and comprise a substantial quantity of students in each of the offered years.
--> OMG, the bias in this previous version is sickening to me personally. It totally lacks any sourcing. The data is cherry picked to present one fringe radical view on ethnicity at UCC. Ugh.
This is what the new Ethnicity section says now: Ethnicity
UCC began admitting ethnic minority students early in its history. The first black student enrolled in 1831, the first Jewish student in 1836 and the first aboriginal student in 1840; some graduates from the Ojibway peoples of Upper Canada going on to study at Dartmouth College and Harvard University. [10]
Diplomat James George, a student between 1926 and 1936, said upon reflection about his time with other UCC graduates in the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs: "If UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASP patriots, why did it produce so many internationalists?" [11]
UCC has maintained a reputation as a "bastion of WASP privilege." [12] Some students recall experiencing anti-Semitism; Graham Fraser, the Globe and Mail Washington Bureau Chief, who attended UCC between 1960 and 1964, recalled: "Anti-Semitism was generally an unspoken undercurrent at UCC, but a couple of times I witnessed overt anti-Semitism.... Before 1960, Toronto was a pretty narrow, close-minded, little Victorian town and Upper Canada College reflected that reality." [13]
Foermer Prep School Headmaster Richard Howard said in his book Upper Canada College, 1929-1979: Colborne's Legacy, published in 1979: "The growth of the enrolment has increased the number of boys from a wide variety of backgrounds and decreased the ratio of those from old Toronto families. The address list now reflects Toronto's ethnic variety and resembles a small United Nations." [14]
Motek Sherman, the editor of the school's yearbook The College Times in 1990, wrote an editorial stating that while UCC was no longer "a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal.... In my years at UCC I have faced anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bureaucracy." [15]
In 2002, student Adam Sheikh created the Diversity Council to celebrate the cultural diversity of the school's student population. This council, a body of students independent from the school administration, organizes celebrations of Chinese, Jewish, Christian and Ukranian cultures. [16]
Today, students from about 18 countries attend UCC. The international students typically come from among the wealthiest families in the countries of their origin.
--> Wow, what a change! It's balanced. It's neutral. It's verified. Sweet!
In addition, as a noob, I have learned about and USED to argue my point in a researched and logical fashion: NPOV, Notability (even correcting GBambino about the notability standards for music), personal attacks, assume good faith, verifiability, Wikinfo and no original research.
You guys should be thanking me for making this article so much better than it was before. Not harrassing me, calling me a dick, making flip remarks, giving me formal warnings, insulting me as a troll and trying to ban me. What's wrong with you people? Honestly, seriously, no joke. 66.208.54.226 12:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have been observing this dispute for some time and I must admit, until now only because it amused me.
Metta Bubble, I believe the problem here is that you started by advocating that user 66 be given a break and then repeatedly told him that as a result of his efforts, "I believe this strategy will result in you getting blocked for being a dick." I know you were probably trying to avoid making a personal judgment yourself, but by not making your views clear on this (i.e., 'I personally don't believe you are a dick'; or, 'I believe this would be the right thing to do') you made your views clear by omission. It's really hard to blame user 66 for suddenly being upset with you. Did not the Buddha say, "When they meet a sorrowful man, they should lament the bitterness of this ever-changing world"? User 66 is clearly confused and sorrowful about Wiki and was hoping for more of a constant in his advocate. You have to admit, whatever you think of his approach, the Ethnicity section does read a lot better because of his efforts. Peace.**** (unsigned comment)
There were two ways that User:66/68 could have improved the ethnicity section:
It seems pretty clear to me that the current, more NPOV version is not User:66/68's work, but the work of me and others who have suffered through his abuse. It is very sad that he is trying to take credit for something that looks nothing at all like what he was trying to impose on this article. I wish, I so very much wish, that he would choose to work with us rather than against us. We are reasonable people, and it does not take threats, insult and abuse to get us to make something NPOV. Ground Zero | t 13:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with almost everything that GroundZero has written. Of course, it should be noted, however, that Meta Bubble did repeatedly call user 66/68 a "dick." This term may have some special meaning in the Wiki world which escapes me, but, I think immediately his/her use of this term negates any claim s/he might make to occupying some neutral vantage on the whole unfortunate episode which this discussion page would seem to represent. I realize how very difficult it can be to keep one's cool dealing with 66/68's style of argumentation (i.e., polemic), and I myself would be the first to admit that I lost my temper with him/her yesterday. That said, name calling will not help. Nor will it placate 66/68, I don't think, to have a supposed "neutral" perspective which begins almost immediately by calling him/her a "dick" (special meaning in Wiki notwithstanding, as user 66/68 is not registered and so, we can assume, would not understand any wiki jargon). I have to say I'm somewhat dissapointed.
I would also note that it, in my opinion, it takes two to tangle, and it seems somewhat disingenuous for one of the two engaged in a revert war to claim innocence: to be engaged in this sort of thing belies, to my mind at least, a *personal* interest in work, which may not be fully conducive to the aims and values of Wikipedia. I wonder if 66/68 might state once more, for the record, in a new section which will not be edited, exactly what his/her wants and needs in this whole unfortunate episode are. Then, responses can be concerned only with those wants and needs (on a point by point basis). I would also suggest a moratorium on commentary on 66/68's previous actions, prior to his/her concession that s/he was unfamiliar with the "rules" of Wiki, and especially since his/her *apology* for previous indiscretions on this page -- many of the responses here are obviously baiting. S/he has yet to apologise to me for his outburst yesterday, but I returned in kind, and want to be first to apologise. Take this or leave this -- but I would consider myself to have as neutral a position on this, again, whole unfortunate episode as anyone else I've seen here, besides, perhaps, 38 (though definitely not 38's colleague at work! :). WormwoodJagger 14:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Wormwood's comments, especially in two regards: (1) calling user 66 a dick (either directly or indirectly) was not necessary and did not add to the discussion; (2) this process has been a two-way street. Gbambino has repeatedly launched personal attacks against user 66 and, at the very minimum, Ground Zero has been prone to losing his or her temper with user 66.
What has been the unstated premise that has been driving this discussion is that there are clearly two perspectives that are clashing here. User 66 obviously feels that there are important facts about UCC's treatment of minorities which should be included in the article; on the opposite side of the fence, Gbambino is one of those Old Boys who appears sensitive to any suggestion that UCC is an exclusive community. You have locked anon users out of the article and therefore imposed the latter view on Wikipedia. You can rationalize and justify this all you want and throw around terms like "dick" and "vandalism" if it makes you feel better, but I do have one question for Ground Zero and the likes: if you lock anon users out of the article and consign them to the discussion page, do you really not expect some heightened level of frustration to be displayed? Peace. Blunders of the third kind 15:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It would seem, then, that the semi-protection can be lifted. This will allow 66/68 and GroundZero and Gbambino to demonstrate their good faith by (i) assuaging the often repetead concern here that GroundZero and Gbambino have taken a proprietary interest in this page and (equally as oft repeted ) (ii) that 66/68 is incapable of reasoned dialogue. I look forward to seeing this page grow now. WormwoodJagger 15:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Wormwood. I think the semi-protection should be lifted as a concrete gesture of good faith.
And I don't want to prolong things when a civil tone seems to have returned to the discussion, but I did check out the link to *dick* as you suggested, and what I found is as follows: "Telling someone "Don't be a dick" is something of a dick-move in itself, so don't bandy the criticism about lightly." In any event, we seem to have moved passed it. I look forward to finding the semi-protection lifted. Blunders of the third kind 16:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed -- let's all get back to work! 129.128.238.85 17:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not surprised that, once again, Ground Zero has chosen to comment recently and yet ignore my request for proof on his part for exceptions to Verifiability per below:
In the meanwhile, I will continue to:
If either Ground Zero or Gbambino or Metta Bubble want to stop personally attacking me and start having a civil discussion to prove where in Wiki policy they can unilaterally decide to ignore Verifiability, I welcome that discussion. Unfortunately, it seems they're far more interested in ignoring this issue and just calling me a troll and threatening to ban me. I think the reason is because they know that substantively, and logically, and technically, they are in the wrong on this and I am in the right. So it's easier to provoke and bait and insult in the meanwhile. Very, very sad.
66.208.54.226 17:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, Anon., at least we can agree on one thing: I certainly am ignoring this "issue." Good luck with your future ventures here at Wikipedia! -- gbambino 17:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have been considering WormwoodJagger's suggestion seriously. I have been around Wikipedia for a few years now, and have seen problems caused by people who have an axe to grind, a point to make, or a general unhappiness with the world. They can take up a lot of time for serious editors who are here to make worthwhile contributions. 66/68 has demonstrated, with her/his latest outburts, that lifting the semi-protection would simply give him another opportunity to be disruptive. He still seems to be asserting her/his right to remove large portions of text that he feels have not be referenced in order to make a point. I do not think that it is in the interests of Wikipedia to allow her/him to renew her/his disruptions. The anonymous editors and the newly-registered "Blunders" who have stopped y to support lifting the semi-protection are welcome to express their views. I will wait for people who have been around Wikipedia for a while, and have made contributions, to voice their opinions because I think that the decision should also reflect the thoughts of people who have a bit of experience with how Wikipedia works. As I've said above, if another administrator decides to lift the semi-protection, I will respect that decision. So far, none has.
User 66/68: I have advised you on how to seek my demotion. You must seek Arbitration to do so. You cannot get it here, so repeating your demands here is pointless. And I don't think that advocates can be demoted as I believe it is a completely voluntary and non-elected position. Ground Zero | t 17:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC) Ground Zero | t 17:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
GroundZero: Thanks for the consideration. Just to be clear: I didn't mean to advocate that the semi-protection be lifted, just that it be considered as a way to get beyond this issue. I think, clearly, you have every reason to be concerned about 66/68, especially after the last posting. I look forward to seeing how this progresses and, of course, defer to your seniority here. WormwoodJagger 20:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to express some frustration here. The fact that User 66 has at times engaged in terse or provocative language is undeniable. But even a cursory review of this discussion page bears out that throughout this dialogue both Ground Zero and Gbambino have often been dismissive and condescending towards User 66. Both users repeatedly assert that User 66 has shown a lack of good faith. But there is a complete lack of insight into their own lack of good faith. Once we examine the facts it becomes apparent that there is absolutely NOTHING User 66 could do to satisfy them to make any changes to the article as it exists. In essence, the article has become ossified by the prejudice of one user and one administrator.
Let’s examine the facts.
Repeatedly, both Gbambino and Ground Zero stated that a way to show good faith would be to register as a user. So that is exactly what I did. And what happens? (1) I am told that my point of view as a “new” user is largely irrelevant. In response to my suggestions, which obviously do not conflict with User 66 to a sufficient degree, Ground Zero writes:
The anonymous editors and the newly-registered "Blunders" who have stopped y to support lifting the semi-protection are welcome to express their views. I will wait for people who have been around Wikipedia for a while, and have made contributions, to voice their opinions[.]
(2) More disturbingly, on the Administrator’s Notice board, Ground Zero suggest by innuendo that I am a “sock puppet” for User 66. Why? Because it is inconceivable that anyone would support or even sympathize with User 66’s views. Can you really ask for any more cogent or compelling evidence that Ground Zero, as an administrator, does not take User 66’s views seriously at all? For the record, I am nobody’s “sock puppet”.
Whether or not I agree with all of User 66’s points or tactics is irrelevant. I believe that locking a site to anon users should only be an option of last resort. I fail to see how User 66’s insistence that Wikipedia abide by one of its own cardinal rules (i.e., verifiability) can be described as an act of “vandalism” or dismissed as an attempt to “prove a point”. When User 66 wanted to demonstrate that UCC’s student population did not reflect Toronto’s demographics he volunteered evidence which is routinely admissible in a court of law under cases dealing with the equality provisions (s. 15) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. For your information, Ground Zero, I find it somewhat ironic that when the Ontario Court of Appeal took judicial notice of racial profiling existing in the Toronto Police Force they were happy to do so under a far less exacting standard than you have insisted that User 66 provide for a single entry on Wikipedia: see http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decisions/2003/april/brownC37818.htm.
Note what Justice Morden says for a UNANIMOUS court: (para. 44) “A racial profiling claim could rarely be proven by direct evidence. This would involve an admission by a police officer that he or she was influenced by racial stereotypes in the exercise of his or her discretion to stop a motorist. Accordingly, if racial profiling is to be proven it must be done by inference drawn from circumstantial evidence.”
The same logic applies to UCC. Evidence of racial profiling in the student admissions body will rarely be capable of proof by direct evidence. After all, it is unlikely that the admissions committee will admit that they discriminate against minorities. So the only way the fact can be proven is through indirect or circumstantial evidence – such as, student body pictures in yearbooks.
With the greatest of respect, Ground Zero, your language in this dialogue admits to a level of intellectual dishonesty which I find inappropriate and ill-suited to a Wiki administrator. But what do I know, right? I’m only newly registered after all… Blunders of the third kind 21:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, let me welcome you to Wikipedia. I hope that you enjoy your time here, and not be put off by this dispute. This is not typical of life here on Wikipedia. I do want to address some of the comments that you have made.
This is not supported by the facts. The fact is that the ethnicity section has now been changed significantly to make it more NPOV. You can review the article history to see the changes that have been made by clicking on the “History” tab at the top of the page. These changes result from valid comments made by unregistered and new users that Gbambino and I have incorporated into the article. The fact is that user 66/68 now agrees that it is NPOV. If you can indicate what parts of the section show the “prejudice of one user and one administrator”, then we can discuss what further changes would be appropriate.
No, you were not told that.
I ask that you to read to the end of the paragraph that you truncated: “I will wait for people who have been around Wikipedia for a while, and have made contributions, to voice their opinions because I think that the decision should also reflect the thoughts of people who have a bit of experience with how Wikipedia works.”
The emphasis on “also” is in the original . Further, please see my comments above about changes to the article resulting from comments made by unregistered and new users.
What I wrote was “may or may not be a sock-puppet”. I take your word for it that you are not a sock-puppet. User 66 has also been writing as User:68, so it is conceivable that s/he would be using other IP numbers and may have registered. I have now removed the statement to which you object. The context of my posting was to ask other admins to consider whether or not to lift the semi-protection that I imposed and continue to believe is appropriate. There is no requirement that I post such a request. As I have said above, I would respect the decision of another editor in this regard.
He demanded verification of UCC being in Toronto, being an elementary school, being a secondary school, and so on. These facts cannot be reasonably disputed especially since Gbambino provided a link to the school’s website, which identifies these facts.
Circumstantial evidence may well be relevant in the question that you cited. I have made the argument, and no-one has challenged it, that the racism that you and 66/68 claim is evidence is societal racism, not the racism of the school. I hope that I have been able to adress some of your concerns. Ground Zero | t 22:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"And lastly, one has to ask, even if it could be proven that a look at the UCC graduating class photos showed that the school's ethnic diversity did not match that of greater Toronto, for what purpose would it be inserted into the article?" Really a question?
Thank you for your response (and your welcome), Ground Zero. The response I have to your last posting is below and is made in good faith. I am heartened by your assurances that what has happened to the UCC page is not typical of Wikipedia.
I am, as I have identified, a new user. I have done some a little research into Wikipedia over the last day or so. One of the things that I have found is that there is a rebuttable presumtpion that to the greatest extent possible all pages will be unprotected. This reflects the clear Wikipedia philosophy that the process of building an on-line dictionary works best when it is collaborative and dynamic. For this reason, Wikipedia official policy on page protection is as follows: “We strive to protect pages only when absolutely necessary and to unprotect them as soon as possible”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:This_page_is_protected
In your response to me you stated, “If you can indicate what parts of the section show the “prejudice of one user and one administrator”, then we can discuss what further changes would be appropriate.”
I accept your invitation but I also want to register my objection. It is not at all clear to me that User 66/68’s activities constitute trolling or vandalism and that the integrity of the UCC page would be threatened if unprotected. I believe I ought to have the right to make the proposed edits directly to the UCC page rather than have to provide detailed explanations on the talk page. I believe that I am being deprived of my right to do so under clear violation of the Wikipedia policy cited above and once again I renew my request to have the page protection lifted.
In the interim, my proposed changes to the Ethnicity section are listed below:
1. James George Quote is Irrelevant
In the ethnicity section, Gbambino has cited an excerpt from a quote from James George lifted from the book, Old Boys. James George’s quote in full is as follows:
“Among my contemporaries at UCC, Arnold Smith, George Grant and myself all became Rhodes Scholars. Arnold Smith, who was four years older than me, got his Rhodes along with George Ignatieff. They both wound up in External Affairs. We had an extraordinary group of people in the External Affairs Department after the war who had a great deal of idealism that was internationalist in scope...if UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASP patriots, why did it produce so many internationalists.”
As you can see, this quote has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity or the demographics of the student body. Rather, what James George is questioning is the assumption that a high school in a backwater colony would be incapable of producing original and international thinkers. If James George had asked, “if UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASPS, why did it produce so many distinguished alumni of different ethnicities?”, it would have relevance to the ethnicity section. The quote used, however, has none and therefore is really asserting a POV. I would eliminate it.
2. Richard Howard Quote is erroneously verified
The fourth paragraph of the Ethnicity section cites a quote from Richard Howard which states that UCC is akin to a mini United Nations. Even though it is stated that this quote is from Howard’s book, Colbourne’s Legacy, the quote is footnoted (#15) to a different book – James Fitzgerald’s Old Boys. When you click on the hyperlink provided, there is no reference to Richard Howard’s quote (or book, for that matter). I suspect that the footnotes might have got mixed up due to recent edits (as Howard’s book is now footnote #16) and this should be corrected.
3. Michael Ignatieff Quote Right on Point
What you do find in James Fitgerald’s book, however, is a quote that is extremely relevant to the Ethnicity section from Michael Ignatieff, former Harvard professor, current member of Parliament and Director of the Munk Centre for International Relations at the University of Toronto. Michael Ignatieff says:
"The UCC culture in my time was basically Tory, Anglican and fantastically patrician. I think anybody who was at UCC has to wrestle with the anomaly and irony of a patrician education in an egalitarian society like Canada. The contradiction is particularly flagrant...
The Canadian elite must be an open, permeable elite which is colour blind, religion blind and gender blind. There has to be an elite based not even on intelligence but character. They will mostly come from schools that bear no resemblance to Upper Canada College.”
This quote is completely relevant to the Ethnicity section and it is made by a prominent and respected intellectual and politician. I would definitely add this quote to the section.
4. Motek Sherman misquoted
In the section as drafted, Gbambino states the following:
“Motek Sherman, the editor of the school's yearbook The College Times in 1990, wrote an editorial stating that while UCC was no longer "a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal.... In my years at UCC I have faced anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bureaucracy”.”
Again, the footnote is to James Fitzgerald’s Old Boys. But when you link to it, you find that nowhere does Motek say that UCC is “no longer a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal.” This part of the quote does not exist anywhere in the cite provided. Instead, Motek comments, “to any outsider who was trying to attain membership in it, UCC had represented the holy grail of the WASP elite”.
I would eliminate the first (and unsupported) segment of the quote. I pause here to point out that if User 66/68 had committed such a serious error in sourcing, he or she doubtless would have been accused of bad faith and/or vandalism. I think the fact that Gbambino has escaped such criticism is indicative of an unfortunate and defining bias in this discussion.
The article then states that in 2002 a student (Adam Sheikh) created the “Diversity Council” at UCC to “celebrate the cultural diversity of the school's student population”. I don’t know where the author gets that the purpose of the Council is or was to celebrate cultural diversity, but what I do know is that a footnote link to verify the fact goes to the “Harmony Scholarship” website. That website says that the purpose of the Harmony Scholarship awards (of which Adam Sheikh was a recipient) is to recognize student efforts at “promoting harmony and challenging different forms of discrimination and prejudice in their schools and communities.”
So I would rewrite the section to read (in a more neutral and verifiable tone), “In 2002, student Adam Sheikh created the Diversity Council to celebrate the cultural diversity of the school's student population. For his efforts Adam received the Harmony Scholarship, an award that recognizes student efforts to promote harmony and challenge different forms of discrimination and prejudice in their schools and communities.”
Finally, the ethnicity section ends by stating that students of 18 different nationalities attend UCC. Surely this is a fact that requires verification. You have now issued an omnibus dismissal of User 66’s requests for verification because he has asked for verification of - to your mind - self-evident or obvious facts. Of course, these are not the only type of facts that User 66 has asked for verficiation for. Even assuming such requests fall outside the rubric of verifiability, the claim that students from 18 nationalities attend UCC does, in my opinion, require verification.
I think the Ethnicity section as currently drafted is riddled with errors and misstatements but can easily be corrected. I do not question the good faith of Gbambino and other contributing editors. I would ask that the same courtesy be extended to other users, including myself. I hope that it does not prove necessary to repeat this time-consuming exercise. If any future edits are to be made, I hope they can be made directly to the article. I hope my feedback has been constructive. Peace. Blunders of the third kind 18:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
As a result of Blunders' critique above, I just have to say:
See what happens when you don't adhere to verifiability? Or only apply verifiability scrutiny to one editor's prose (ie me) but not the other (ie gbambino)?
66.208.54.226 19:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
With regard to your comments about page rotection, I agree that it is not sopmething that should be done lightly. Preference should be given for keeping Wikipedia as open as possible. Wikipedia, however, has given itself procedures for preventing vandalism and other disruption, including page protection and blocking and banning users. These powers are provided only to those Wikipedians who have been chosen by their peers as administrators. In the seven months that I have been and administrator, I have used semi-pretection on only one occasion that I recall, and then it was only for two days. I have never used full page protection (which prevents even registered users other than administrators from editing), and I have not blocked any user.
I am disappointed that I have had to leave semi-protection on this article for so long. It is only because I believe that User 66/68 will continue to disrupt the article that I have left semi-protection on. I judge my actions by the responses of my peers:
So I do not think that I have overstepped my bounds as an administrator, and I do not think that it would be prudent to lift semi-protection yet.
Unfortunately, your right to edit is being limited by another anon user’s behaviour. Your reuqest to lift semi-protection is noted, but I believe, and apparently other admins believe, that continued semi-protection of this article is not a violation of Wikipedia policies. If another admin decides to lift semi-protection, I will respect that decision.
As far as the content goes, you have clearly done a lot of research, and raised a number of valid points. I see that Gbambino is addressing them, and making some of the changes. When he is done, we should revisit your comments to make sure that everything that should be reflected in the article is reflected. Regards, Ground Zero | t 21:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
"He demanded verification of UCC being in Toronto, being an elementary school, being a secondary school, and so on. These facts cannot be reasonably disputed especially since Gbambino provided a link to the school' website, which identifies these facts." Can it be assumed that these unverified POV assertions (according to Wiki standards) would be self-evident to readers in, say, Siberia? 129.128.67.23 22:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
GroundZero edited the scandal section at 14:55 March 17 to state that Brown was a history and geography teacher at the prep. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Upper_Canada_College&diff=44217693&oldid=44214849
Uhhh.... what? If I recollect correctly, Brown was most of all an English teacher. Oh wait, here's a source for you: http://injusticebusters.com/04/Brown_Doug.shtml mentions several times that he's an English teacher. Never mentions history or geo (though I think he taught some such classes).
But please continue, GroundZero, putting in more UNVERIFIED stuff into the article. Fiction, hazy recollections, half truths, outright errors, they're all good. 68.50.242.120 22:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Mindmatrix, answer my question below in a civil and substantive manner. Cause as far as I am concerned, your little quip lacks verifiability.
68.50.242.120 23:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's try this: how about you verify that UCC is not in Toronto, is not an all-boy's school, is not an elementary school, and so on. A source affirming those facts has been provided, so it would really be of great benefit to your credibility if, instead of ranting, you could actually adhere to the Wikipedia policies you throw at others. Please, be an example to all of us, and help us improve our editing skills. -- gbambino 23:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
1) UCC's website is cited in footnote #1, which is at the end of the opening paragraph. The information which verifies that UCC is in Toronto, an all-boys school, and an elementary school is contained within. 2) Be careful with that libel thing again... 3) Go see your therapist. -- gbambino 23:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Gbambino: I attended UCC during the same time (we probably know each other) and, to be fair, I took English with Doug Brown in Form 3, which would have been 1987. I remember reading Watership Down and The Wizard of Earthsea and spending an awful lot of time dissecting the mindless drivel of a stoned Roger Waters as though it were high art! :) I *also* took Geography with him the next year: he failed myself and every other hockey player in his class during the 2nd semester, and then, due to parent pressure, gave us all +90s as final grades. A real *star* academic, obviously.
Why is everyone so virulent again?!?!?! How about all of you taking a *deep* breath, maybe drinking a coke, and watching a bit of the Simpsons, before answering each other's edits? This is really frustrating, as I have a number of edits I would like to add, to begin my work on Wikipedia. I came here to learn and to participate.... It's a shame this is being ruined by what can, at times, seem like shouting matches between gatekeepers and visigoths! WormwoodJagger 23:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I am registered but can't edit. Metta: I assume you've got me confused with someone else. Aren't you the moderator? WormwoodJagger 01:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Homey: UCC is an independent, not a *private* school (tongue so far into cheek, it looks like I'm eating a Toblerone :) WormwoodJagger 23:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
See this edit where the protection tag got removed. Too much argument not enough thought. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 01:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's Step Back and Clearly Identify the Issues Wow. I can’t believe the sheer mayhem that can ensue when you leave this site unattended for a few hours. I second Wormwood’s advice: we should all step back from the brink for a moment to collect our thoughts.
There has been so much emphasis placed on the fact that User 66 asked for verification or proof that UCC is located in Toronto. If you actually read the full exchange that has occurred on this page, you will see that User 66 asked for a lot more than that. I do not mean to speak for User 66, but clearly when he or she asked for proof that UCC was located in Toronto, he or she was frustrated by a perceived inconsistency in the application of Wikipedia rules to different users (such as verifiability, NPOV, etc.). To focus on one request for verification (i.e., whether UCC is located in Toronto) is, in my opinion, simply a straw man.
Even ignoring this one issue, there are serious and genuine claims in the UCC article that are currently are not verified. And everyone has lost sight of that fact. Everyone is so busy trying to decide if free access should be granted to the UCC sight that no one has questioned whether it is, after all, an accurate article. I note that earlier today when I pointed out numerous deficiencies in the “Ethnicity” section, corrections had to be made. And to Gbambino and Ground Zero’s credit, they were made.
At the risk of repeating what has already been stated (because I know Mindmatrix hates “cutting and pasting the same text”), please remember that User 66 also asked for verification of, inter alia, the following facts (which I would certainly label as beyond the pale of “commonly accepted”):
· The school was founded in the hopes it would serve as a feeder school to the newly established King's College
· The eclectic mix of different styles was typical of the overall concept of Victorian architecture.
· More than 400 graduates perished during both the First World War and the Second World War.
· By the early 20th century, the city was growing quickly around the Deer Park campus.
· By the 1960s, due to broader shifts in social paradigms, belief in the Cadets was faltering; religion and patriotism were not held in such high regard by youth, and rebellion was the more accepted behaviour for teenagers
I think it is completely genuine to insist that these facts be verified.
That said, let’s visit the controversial (if not ridiculed) issue of User 66’s request that proof or verification be provided of the fact that UCC is located in Toronto.
'Why Consistency of Approach is not a mere formality'
I do have to add my voice to the other users that have raised this point repeatedly: where is that stated in Wikipedia policy that commonly accepted or trivial facts do not need to be proved? What is so glaringly obvious about this endless back-and-forth is that if that were a such caveat to Wikipedia policy, surely it would have been cited by now. The fact that it has not can only lead one to the inevitable conclusion that such a policy does not exist.
Although I do not feel that I should have to defend myself for asking a question in good faith, I feel I must make it clear that I am not asking for substantiation of this point to bait or troll – I actually ask the question in good faith and here’s why: the common problem that occurs within any system of governance that dispenses with the need to prove or justify “commonly accepted” or “de minimus” facts is that they are prone to abuse.
Surely everyone is familiar with the concept of due process. There are criminal trials where an accused is clearly and undeniably guilty on the merits of the case but if they plead not guilty the Crown is still required to prove its’ case beyond a reasonable doubt each and every time. The Crown is not allowed to say, “Come on, your Honour – it is commonly accepted that this accused is guilty. Surely, you are not going to require me to actually PROVE it?” Why is proof still required, even in such cases? I would suggest it is because the ONLY way to preserve order in any system of knowledge (whether it be the common law or the gathering of encyclopedic information) is to adhere to unmistakably defined rules that do not admit to exceptions of convenience.
It is easy to dismiss the idea of having to prove that UCC is located in Toronto, right? In the same way that it is equally easy to prove that Saddam Hussein or Slobodon Milosevic are war criminals, right? Or that six million really died in the Holocaust, right?
It is no answer to say, “Well, the fact that UCC is located in Toronto is different than whether or not Milosevic was a war criminal because the former is well known to anyone familiar with the subject and free from controversy while the latter is by nature contentious”. That misses the point. The moment you separate and divide facts into different categories (such as “accepted” or “trivial” or “contentious” or “important”) you are once again faced with the same overriding dilemma: just WHO exactly decides what facts are accepted and what facts are contentious? And I am not being facetious. To an ultra-nationalist Serbian, Slobodon Milosevic is a patriotic and political hero without compromise. To an ultra-conservative Christian, abortion is murder without compromise. To them, there is nothing contentious in such facts at all.
In order to avoid dealing with such quagmires, Wikipedia has a policy of verifiability. If you adhere to a strict and textual interpretation of Wikipedia policy (and I have seen nothing to suggest that a deviation from such a method of exegesis is justified), the moment a fact is challenged by one, it becomes contentious. The alternative is absolute chaos. You win the battle on this subject of UCC, but tell me, Mindmatrix, do you really want pro-lifers to cite your precedent that:
(1) If they are in the majority their view of the ‘facts’ govern unless and until the minority can prove them wrong;
(2) If they are familiar with a subject (such as abortion) they are entitled to state what they, as the majority, view as “basic, undisputable facts” because “base level knowlegde has to be assumed at some point”?
(3) They are entitled to determine, of course, what is “contentious” and what is “accepted”, provided they adhere (in their judgment as the majority, of course) to your litmus test of whether or not a fact is “likely to be challenged” (and I assume that challenges by anyone deemed to be a troll or vandal can be summarily dismissed)?
Would you be willing to post the exact same views that you have expressed here on the UCC discussion page on the abortion or Holocaust articles or discussion pages for Wikipedia? If you are, I would invite you to do so (or I can do it for you) and I believe you would have provided a full answer to my objection; if not, what you are saying cannot be valid and is only an argument of convenience.
While I accept, as you have pointed out Mindmatrix, that commonly accepted facts do not need to be verified for peer-reviewed publications, surely you realize that Wikipedia is the antithesis of peer-reviewed publications. I think it would be safe to go so far as to say that Wikipedia is a genuine anathema to peer-reviewed publications, since it can be edited by anonymous parties. And the less control you have over WHO is editing, the more strict the adherence to the rules about WHAT is edited and HOW it is edited (i.e., verifiability, no POV, etc.).
Again, I feel I must say that I make these points in good faith. I hope the fact that I express disagreement with the “majority” is not construed as “trolling” or “vandalism” or even mada fides. I would like to engage in a genuine discussion. If anyone else shares this interest, feedback would be appreciated. I would like to resolve this issue once and for all before it spreads to other pages. Let’s face it: Wikipedia does not need any more bad press. Peace. Blunders of the third kind 04:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Blunders, thank you for taking the time to post such well-considered comemtns. I will respond on your talk page.
Ground Zero |
t 17:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Could somebody please tell me where I can find information on how to insert footnotes? Thanks WormwoodJagger 14:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
The format of the table is consistent with a number of other articles on Ontario private/independent schools, namely: Appleby College, Community Hebrew Academy of Toronto, Lakefield College School, St. Clement's School, and Trinity College School. Only one has the format you propose: St. Andrew's College (Aurora, Ontario). Whether you find your proposal more aesthetically pleasing is pretty much a matter of POV, so I think it's best to stick to the most common format to maintain some kind of continuity amongst the articles. Is there a standard for this type of thing anyway?
And, as an aside, UCC has never been a denominational school. -- gbambino 17:38, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
It is originally Anglican. Also, the fact that most other private schools in Ontario isn't really consequential - most of those articles are barely anything at all anyway. There is no standard table, no. User Synflame 19:30, 6 February 2006.
Is it really the cookie monster? CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 16:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Guys, it is NOT the Cookie Monster. Let me introduce you to Intellectual Property Law 101. Intellectual Property Law 101? Meet Gbambino and CambridgeBayWeather. CambridgeBayWeather and Gbambino? Meet Intellectual Property Law 101. IPL101 has whispered something in your ears, it is this: "The mascot for UCC is not the Cookie Monster because UCC has not licensed the rights to use the Cookie Monster from Sesame Workshop, a non-profit with world-wide exclusive ownership of the Cookie Monster brand". Next you two will be saying the mascot for UCC is Mickey Mouse....
I would have read the article if you had provided the right link. Before doing so it appeared you were making up utter nonsense. But, you still haven't provided evidence that it is actually the mascot. I'm not specifically asserting that it isn't (and it seems to contiune to slip over your comprehension that I never did attest to knowing for sure what the mascot is), but frankly, without proof that "O RLY owl" is, I'm removing it from the table until it can be confirmed by other sources. Nothing personal, just trying to be factually accurate. -- gbambino 22:20, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
To the anonymous editor: please review Wikipedia's guidelines on
Civility. Sarcasm and condescension ae not a good way of getting your point across. It is more effective to try to work with other editors than to piss them off. Thanks.
Ground Zero |
t 04:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Re. Barton: I went to UCC from '83 to '94 and don't remember any such comment. Provide a more viable source. As well, provide proof he was heterosexual.
Re. Motek: Remember the guy, but don't remember the essay. You say it's in the '91 Times, but strangely in the article you put '88. I'll check both my copies at home.
Re. photos in yearbook: The presence of predominantly "white" faces in the yearbook photos is not proof of systematic racism at UCC. It may well be the concequence of the fact that upper middle class and upper class Toronto society through those decades was predominantly "white." As well you can't necessarily tell someone's ethnicity just by how they look - do all Jews look different to Anglo-Europeans, or Eastern Europeans? -- gbambino 22:05, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Have anything substantial to contribute? Or do you just have a personal grudge against the school? Regardless, learn to work with more than just base generalizations. Self-improvement is a good thing. -- gbambino 22:30, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Please review the Wikipedia policy on No personal attacks. These comments are not acceptable on Wikipedia. Ground Zero | t 04:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Yo, Gambino, you're selecting deleting anything unsourced that you do not like. I can play that game to. Watch.
Try reading the sources provided and you'll note that everything in the article already is cited. Keep up your childish antics though, they're highly entertaining. -- gbambino 23:01, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
Can I ask what exactly it is you want to achieve here? -- gbambino 23:17, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I hope that clarifies everything for you. -- gbambino 17:34, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Please review Wikipedia:No legal threats, which is an official Wikipedia policy. Thank you. Ground Zero | t 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Every graduate of note can't be included in the article - hence the separate page at List of Upper Canada College alumni. Besides, I've done a few searches on the Jay Hodgson Group, and came up with nothing substantial - no newpaper or magazine articles, just that Hodgson is currently completing his PhD. I've no real issue with him being included on the Alum page, but I think, in comparison to the other graduates noted in that list, more proof of his noteriety is needed. There are tons of semi-successful UCC graduates who aren't listed because they're just not all that great in comparison to the Order of Canada winners, knighs, CEOs, Chairmans, Cabinet Minsters, Lieutenant Governors, etc. -- gbambino 23:06, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise notable - I'll ask again: How is the band notable? I'm not saying you're wrong, but where's the evidence? As I said, I did a search on both Google and Yahoo, and got next to nothing - one mention of Hodgosn completing his PhD in music. If the Jay Hodgson Group was really that notable, don't you think there'd be more info on them out there - like Jim Cuddy and Blue Rodeo for example? Anyway, the two are on the List of Upper Canada College alumni page now - why can't you just leave it at that? -- gbambino 16:51, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Fine with me 66.208.54.226 19:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I have semi-protected this page, which means that it cannot be edited by anonymous and newly-registered users. I have taken this action because an anonymous editor has been deleting large portions of text to illustrate a point, which is contrary to Wikipedia:Etiquette. In so he doing, he/she also appears to have violated the Three-revert rule, which is an official policy of Wikipedia. I encourage the editor to take some time off from this article to review Wikipedia policies and guidelines in order to learn how to work with other editors to improve articles, and how to avoid edit wars, which are a waste of everybody's time. Ground Zero | t 23:22, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
I am an Administrator, so I have special powers to protect articles, see through walls, fly, and, well, actually not so much the last two, but I can protect articles, block users, and do a few other things. If, for example, the actions that led to the semi-protection had been done by a registered user, I could have blocked the user from editing for a period of time. Semi-protection and protection are done with some frequency to protect Wikipedia from vandalism and to help resolve edit wars. Ground Zero | t 23:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)
The word is "hypocrisy". The three-revert rule does not apply inthe case of vandalism. Your large-scale deletions were vandalism because you were disrupting Wikipedia to illustrate a point. For example, you removed references in the first paragraph to UCC being a private school, and all other description but "UCC is a school" not to improve the article, but to make a point. If someone challenges you to provide a source, the way to respond -- and this really is how things work on Wikipedia -- is to provide a source. Responding by blanking out large portions of text becuase you don't want to defend your actions is vandalism. I have been around Wikipedia long enough to be made an administrator, so I do know how things work here. And, often, I have learned by making mistakes. We all do. So please don't consider this an attack on you. I just want to encourage you to learn more bout this great project by reviewing its policies and guidelines. I've linked a few above to get you started. By learning about the policies and guidelines, you can be more effective in contributing to Wikipedia, and avoid messy confrontations like this. Ground Zero | t 04:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Here is another policy that you can review to start learning about how Wikipedia works: No personal attacks. We do our best to be civil here. Your comemnts are not appropriate. Again, we all make mistakes when we first start off, so you're not alone in these transgressions. Making mistakes is how we learn. Ground Zero | t 04:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to stir up the pot here, and please correct me if I am WAY off base (again, I'm new), but all this seems contrary to the *interactive* nature of wikipedia. I've been following these posts (am an old boy, so interested) and it would seem that there is one particular user who is working to ensure that any edits made by anonymous users, which do not meet *his/her* rather than Wikipedia's standards, are erased. I don't mean to point fingers, but one of the users (I keep seeing the handle "Gbambino") seems to me to be abusing his position somewhat, as he is constantly reverting any changes of, what seemed to me, at least, to be viable additions to this article (particularly on UCC and ethnicity). I appreciate that you are the site administrator, and I was wondering if you could tell me why this is allowed to occur, before I give up on contributing to this page before even starting? I'm actually worried that if I add *anything*, my work will be deleted. -- Unsigned comment by User:WormwoodJagger
I am not intervening here in defence of Gbambino. I have locked horns with him on other occasions, and I do not see eye to eye with him on a lot of things. I intervened to stop a senseless edit war between a regular editor and one or two new users. One of the new users made it clear above that he is trying to promote his own particular point of view ("I want to expose that UCC was not a racist-free playground"), rather than trying to achieve a Neutral point of view, which is what we aim for. I am not arguing that Gbambino's edits are neutral either. I'll start picking my way through the arguments on both sides over the next couple of days to try to figure out what -- if any -- of the anon contributions should be incorporated into the article. The most effective way to improve articles on Wikipedia is to work toward compromise, which was not happening. Revert wars are just a waste of time and bandwidth.
I am not "the" site administrator -- I am "an" administrator. There are many of us.
I am going to try to mediate between the different points of view here. You should be aware that not all of your edits will remain here unaltered. As it says at the bottom of every edit page: Please note: If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed by others, do not submit it.
Finally, please sign your edits by typing four tildes, like this: ~~~~. This makes it easier for everyone to be able to follow who wrote what. Thanks, and welcome to Wikipedia. Ground Zero | t 04:26, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay, I've reviewed some of the edit warring that was going on. There have been several points of contention:
If there are other issues that I have missed, please list them below and I'll try to sort them out. Ground Zero | t 04:42, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
The four tildes work -- your IP number shows up. As far as I can tell, of the threee "facts", Gbambino has accepted one -- the Mostek story. Whether or not the Barton story is evidence of racism is debatable. It sounds like a pretty silly story for the principal to tell, but not evidence of serious racism. As far as looking at the yearbooks and seeing white faces, that is not evidence of institutionalized racism either. Were non-whites screened out because the school had a quota on non-whites? Or were they screened out by society's failure to grant them the financial and educational opportunities that are generally a pre-requisite for admission to UCC, and society's racism is what contributes to a mostly white student body, not UCC's racism. Finally, I've made myself clear on on the question of verifiability. You are clearly not questioning Gbambino's edits because you think they are incorrect, but simply to make a point because you are angry that he has asked you to provide sources for your edits. You can appeal to another Administrator if you think I am being unreasonable about this. Ground Zero | t 05:01, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I've come here because User:68.50.242.120 requested my input as an advocate. Please offer 68 some help in expressing his efforts to introduce discussion about the POV he feels is underrepresented in the article. In the name of welcoming newcomers, I'd like all to consider backing off a little on the patronising and stirring. It's much easier to maintain your cool when you've been here for a while and you have experience of how things unfold. It's much easier to tolerate insults when you've been around.
If anyone would like an outsiders opinion on some of the editorial issues, I can also make a couple of comments on that. Peace. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 06:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Point taken. Metta, if there is anything that you think that I could have done better, please let me know. Ground Zero | t 12:33, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
“The fact is that Gambino is a Vice Chairman of the Monarchist League of Canada, “
The fact that he has political views does not mean that his edits are, by definition, biased. We all have biases, and we should do our best to exclude them from our edits. Let’s discuss the bias of Gbambino’s edits, and not assume that all of his edits are inherently biased.
We’re not in a Court of Law here, we are applying policies. No-one is getting away with a crime here. If all of Gbambino’s edits for which he has not provided evidence were removed as you wish, the article would be a shell of its current self. The Wikipedia article on UCC would be diminshed so that you can make a point about how you don’t feel you should be challenged on your edits. That is not how the policies on verifiability are intended to be used. If verfiability were as strictly applied thoroughout as you have requested for this article, we would have to remove 90-95% of the content of Wikipedia. Again, it is fair for Gbambino or anyone else to request a reference for anything being added to an article to in order to ensure that it is an improvement. But deleting large blocks of text to prove your point does not improve the article.
I’ll take a look at the weasel words issue that you raise. Please accept that there have been a lot of edits and I haven’t followed all of them. If I have missed something, it is because I am human and have only limited volunteer time available for this project, not because I am choosing to overlook things. What are the particular weasel words that you are concerned about?
“I am most disturbed that a seemingly "neutral" Admin would just come right out and say "I refuse to enforce the rules of Wiki to which I am bound cause I don't like you."”
I didn’t say that. I have solicited the attention of other administrators to help resolve this because I accept that you do not see me as being impartial on this. We will have to wait for the input of others to resolve this. Ground Zero | t 15:47, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You and I are not going to be able to resolve this on our own. We're just going around in circles. Let's wait to see what others think. I have responded to your valid concerns about weasal words below.
I was unaware of your problems with CBW. I will ask User:HOTR, instead, if you agree to having him comment. Ground Zero | t 16:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Two things I know about: Architecture and monarchy. Big surprise that I should contribute information that is in one way or another related to those two things. Strange, though, that you don't note a bias within my edits about the history of the school in relation to the government of Ontario and UofT, nor my edits about the UCC Cadets, nor my edits about the arts, nor... well I'm sure you get the point. Instead of trying to undermine my character, put more effort into adding what you know about into the article(s), and make some attempt to make it credible. I'd much rather that than these silly, childish cat-fights. -- gbambino 17:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Again, will you accept User:HOTR as an unbiased administrator. I do not know if he will agree to take on this task, but if you agree, I can ask him, or you can ask him yourself. Ground Zero | t 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I am fine with User:HOTR 66.208.54.226 18:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I have taken a look at the wording in this section based on User:68's comments and found it to be both POV and containing weasel words as User:68 identifies. I have tried to improve it, but it needs further work. In particular, the reference to non-white students representing a substantial portion of the class should be substantiated, otherwise it is just conjecture, and should be removed. What does "substantial" mean? Could someone with a recent yearbook do a head-count of the leaving class so that we can have a firm number, rather than something open to interpretation? I have also removed "multi-millionaire" and "jet-setting" as being non-neutral. I think that the replacement wording gets the same point across without the prejudicial words. Ground Zero | t 16:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
In the context of a higschool yearbook editorial, at a school which is now being theorized for its "codes of silence" by student poststructural commentators in academe, it is *miraculous* that Sherman should have been able to publish even this "aside," which nonetheless verifies that, in his opinion (which the school esteemed enough to grant him the position to write the ediotieal), he experineced "anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bereaucracy" at the school. More care and thought should go into your response, I feel, than such a dismissive line as this:"Hardly an exposé on insidious racism" -- not conducive to open dialogue. This is baiting, obviously. Are you two playing some kind of troll game? 129.128.238.84 17:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
As I've stated before, the absence of blacks or other races is not proof of racism at UCC, but of racism in our society that results in these groups not having the educational and/or financial opportunites that are need to get into UCC. Drawing the conclusion that there isinstitutionalized racism at UCC based on this observatio alone would be POV in my opinion. Ground Zero | t 17:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to weigh in here.
Are you seriously trying to argue, Ground Zero, that although a country or society may be racist, one of its leading educational institutions which, in your own words (or at least Wikipedia article), has "educated many of the country's elite, powerful and wealthy" is not racist because the school did not create a lack of "educational and/or financial opportunities"? Fine. Then what about a more "neutral" statement such as, "In its history, Upper Canada College has never graduated a class which is even remotely representative of Toronto's population, demographically speaking." Then readers can say, "Oh well, maybe that's not because of racial profiling on the part of the school - maybe it's just reflective of a lack of 'educational and/or financial opportunities' in a broader social context".
The reason you won't allow user 66.208.54.226 to put in his observations about the yearbooks is because you know that's pure tripe. Res ipsa loquitur: in law that means, "the fact speaks for itself". And the fact that you will not find more than a token representation of blacks or other minorities in any UCC yearbook "speaks for itself". If you somehow maintain that the fact is ambiguous and open to interpretation, then leave it in and let the reader be the judge. The fact that you are so hell bent on excluding it suggests the contrary, however.
Need moderator assistance here please. I don't know how to argue with someone who is going to argue black is white and white is black. I just want the #s published without sabotage, squelching or a cover-up. Let people draw their own conclusions. 19:04, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
You raise some good points, and I've edited the section to hopefully rid it of some of the bias you mention. In regards to the inclusion of the early examples of minorities attending the school, I think that if we are to include the school's reputation as a WASP institution (which I believe is true), then we should also mention that the school has always admitted minorities into its enrolment (which I believe is also true). Perhaps "Ethnicity" isn't the best heading for the section. -- gbambino 22:03, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
If the article discusses racism and/or anti-semitism at UCC it should reflect existing citations rather than try to conduct original research into demographics. Wasn't there a book published recently consisting of essays by UCC grads, at least one of whom reflected on his experiences of anti-Semitism? That sort of information can be referenced as can published statistics (if there are any) on the racial composition of UCC. However, we should be careful to put in notable examples of what would now be called anti-racism by UCC such as allowing in Jewish refugees (most notably Peter C. Newman) as students at a time when many private schools were "restricted". I don't know if UCC has racist admission practices or not - we shouldn't speculate. If there is evidence that they might, whether it be, say, complaints to the Human Rights Commission, lawsuits, complaints by anti-racist groups or published recollections by individuals then we can include this. If it's just a perception by editors that pictures of UCC classes look awfully white, that's POV. Homey 22:23, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Thank you Metta Bubble for your assistance. I will submit feedback on your talk page and restate a summary of my outstanding objections on this article sometime tomorrow. 66.208.54.226 03:05, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't think I'm a mediator per se (I'm not a member of the mediation committee in any case). I'm happy to give my opinion, FWIW. I'm really not clear on what specifically this dispute is about. Can someone point me to some edit diffs that show what phrases/points are in contention? Homey 04:13, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I might venture to say that the dispute revolves around 66.208.54.226's insertion of the following points on March 13:
66.208.54.226's actions include:
I have made the effort to find the actual source of his insertion about Motek Sherman, and this has been included in the article. Other words on UCC's demographics and anti-Semitism have been inserted as well. -- gbambino 05:47, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The list of violations of Wikipedia policies and guidelines should only be viewed as a list of areas where the new user should reconsider his/her approach to editing and as a list of Wikipedia articles he/she should review in order to learn more about how to work in Wikipedia.
New users almost always make mistakes of this sort. It takes a while to learn how to use Wikipedia, and we have to give new users a fair degree of slack, while nudging them firmly in the direction of the conformance with Wikipedia norms.
This is why it would be very useful for the new user(s) to register with Wikipedia and make their contributions while logged in. This makes it easier for other users to communicate directly with the new users and help them learn how things are done here. The Wikipedia policies and guidelines are designed to help users work together collaboratively to improve Wikipedia, and avoid the confrontation and acrimony that I am confident has been vexing to participants on all sides here.
I want to point out to the new user(s) that several changes have been made to the article by other other parties to reflect valid points that you have raised. And I think that Gbmbino has demonstrated good faith by providing references for a large number of the 96 points that you have raised.
I want to assure the new user(s) that Wikipedia editing is only rarely this contentious -- Wikipedia is usually and fun and educatoinal experience for users. Please join us by registering. Ground Zero | t 12:51, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have 2 outstanding objections to the article:
Allow me to go into more detail on each point.
1. UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS:
2. ADMIN REJECTION OF WIKI POLICY:
1. UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS:
VERIFIABILITY NEEDED FOR COPYRIGHT COMPLIANCE: Gbambino has included other sources, not just the one book. I have reviewed the link provided by the anon user, and in my opinion, Gbambino’s work does not violate the rules set out there.
2. ADMIN REJECTION OF WIKI POLICY:
ADMIN REJECTS VERIFIABILITY POLICY: I do not reject the verifiability policy. I reject the rigorous and absolute application of it that the anon user is demanding because the anon user is not demanding it to improve the article or to remove parts hat he questions. He is doing so in order to make a point. This is disruptive to Wikipedia, and would not improve the article. Gbambino has demonstrated good faith by sourcing many of the 96 items. Gbambino and I have both made changes to the article to reflect the anon user’s problems with the article where we have concluded that he was raising good points.
I semi-protected the article in order to stop the revert war that was going on. I have invited other administrators to try to help resolve the dispute. One of these administrators I invited only after getting the agreement of the anon editor. Neither of these administrators has seen fit to lift the semi-protection. I also posted a general request for assistance in resolving this dispute on the administrators’ notice board. It does not appear that any other administrator has chosen to participate, however. In addition, I asked a member’s advocate, MetaBubble, who was intervening on behalf o the anon editor, to provide advice on my response to the situation. S/he did not find fault with my actions in this dispute. If other administrators or advocates have advice for me on how I could have handled this better, I would be pleased to hear it.
REMEDY RECOMMENDED: There is a process for demoting administrators. I do not know if unregistered users can nominate admins for demotion or not. The anon user, or a registered user working on his or her behalf, may choose to pursue this if s/he chooses. If I understand the process correctly, and I don’t guarantee that I do, admin demotions can only be done through Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration. Before we get to arbitration, however, we would have to take this to a formal Wikipedia:Requests for mediation. If that fails, it could then go to arbitration and demotion could be considered by the Arbitration Committee. Ground Zero | t 16:22, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I have now provided a source for the "oldest school in Ontario" point. Now maybe you can demonstrate good faith by doing one yourself. Ground Zero | t 19:42, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
1. UNVERIFIED STATEMENTS:
2. ADMIN REJECTION OF WIKI POLICY:
Have you even bothered to look at a copy of the book? Have you compared the contents of Howard's 300+ page history of UCC to what's in this article? I think I know the answer based on your ridiculous assertion that this free Wikipedia article renders purchasing the book obsolete. Stop wasting our time. -- gbambino 18:55, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I am new to Wikipedia. I have followed this dispute and the resulting posts on the UCC page with some interest. I am an old boy of the school. Yesterday I intervened in this dialogue to support what I perceived to be a valid point by user 68. I don't personally know any of the parties to this dispute and am unfamiliar with the hierarchy at Wikipedia (Admins, User advocates, etc.). What I do know is that in response to my comments, user Ground Zero had the following to say: "please stop trying to say what I believe. You really don't do a very good job at all of interpreting my comments."
I would point out that this was the first and only time that I had posted any comments. What I find disturbing about Ground Zero's commentary is that it illustrates precisely the problem with this ongoing dialogue: it is no longer about attempting to create an objective entry about an important subject in the style of an on-line encyclopedia. It is now about personal biases and POVs.
I have read the current posting of the UCC article on "Ethnicity". I assume this reflects the latest changes by gBambino. While, to his credit, it does now include reference to racism and prejudices exprienced by old boys, an objective observer cannot help but be left with the impression that these problems are now fixed and of no consequence. You are all educated people - to suggest otherwise is really nothing more than an exercise in semantics.
It is a shame - and I direct these comments to Meta Bubble because it is the only party that seems to have a balanced and objective voice in this discussion - but it is evident that this process has been hijacked by gBambino and Ground Zero. If you want to create an article that expresses their personal views about UCC, then you can congratulate yourselves. Mission accomplished. But this is not an article that would appear in any respected printed publication. 38.112.100.158 18:54, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
I hate to do this GroundZero and Gbambino, since it seems like you are getting it from all sides here by people who are outraged about something outside of your work on this page, but there are two points I'd raise in response to this. First, it would seem that there is a POV creeping into the Ethnicity section. You do, indeed, cite, but you contextualize your citations within an obvious point of view. In the following passage, the term "however" should probably be exised to maintain objectivity:
Motek Sherman, the editor of the school's yearbook The College Times in 1990, wrote an editorial stating that while UCC was no longer "a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal... In my years at UCC I have faced anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bureaucracy." [13] However, diplomat James George, a student between 1926 and 1936, said upon reflection about his time with other UCC graduates in the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs: "If UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASP patriots, why did it produce so many internationalists?" [14]
Furthermore, I'm not sure that citing someone's POV on their experience at a school which predates what precedes the citation by almost a full half century is really all that relevant. The implication is that the final citation refutes or even balances what precedes the citation. Is the citation relevant? I'm not sure how it fits.
Secondly: As for the question of "hijacking" the page. I would simply note that -- I'm sure in good faith -- since the semi-protection, only GroundZero and Gbambino have consistently edited the page. This does seem a tad one-sided.
I suppose my abiding interest here is not simply in Wikipedia's standards -- since reading an article, I've been interested in this experiment -- but, more to the point, how those standards are applied. As an old boy, I happened upon this article, and am now following this debate with only this in mind (I am yet to be convinced that UCC is racist, or that Sherman's comments were anything more than the overstated position of a young man).
This all said, I think everyone's work here is commendable, as the tone has certainly resided from virulence to reasoned debate now. WormwoodJagger 20:27, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
The grammar and style will certainly have to be fixed. But I think this is a much more objective approach. 38.112.100.158 20:46, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
What a bunch of hogwash. Just old boys slapping themselves on the back. Hope you feel better about disregarding user 66/68s legitimate comments about failing to adhere to your own policies. Funny. What I despised about UCC is exactly what I despise about this forum: pretending to be objective when you are anything but! 38.112.100.158 20:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Could you please indicate in what way you think the ethnicity section of the article as it now stands is not objective so that we can discuss that? Thanks. Ground Zero | t 21:03, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
My apologies, Ground Zero. As may be evident by the sudden shift in tone, that was not me but a colleague of mine. I stand by my earlier comments. 38.112.100.158 21:06, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
WormwoodJagger: This all said, I think everyone's work here is commendable, as the tone has certainly resided from virulence to reasoned debate now. ROFL. Do you call the personal attacks and violations of assume good faith used against me by Ground Zero and gbambino as "reasoned debate"? Personally, I want to make personal attacks and not assume good faith against you, but that would be a violation of Wiki policy. Too bad it applies to me but not Ground Zero or gbambino.... 66.208.54.226 21:08, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
66.208.54.226: Given your record on this page, you don't have a leg to stand on! GroundZero and Gbambino have done their best, repeatedly, to accomodate your position with regards to UCC and ethnicity IN THE CONTEXT OF WIKIPEDIA! If, as you write, Wiki policy applies to you but not to GroundZero or Gbambino, why not register? unsigned comment by User:WormwoodJagger
Good! It would seem, then, that we can now unblock the page!
WormwoodJagger 15:38, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Wormwood, I don't follow your logic, and I do not think it would be appropriate to unprotect the page. The anon user has not shown that s/he understands all of the problems that s/he has caused or the inapprpriateness of his/her behaviour on many of the points that have been raised. I think that unprotecting now would return us to a counter-productive revert war. I recognize, however, that I am too close to this matter to be completely objective, and would respect the decision of another admin to unprotect. Ground Zero | t 15:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
GroundZero: so that's where this commetn went. Sorry, see below. WormwoodJagger 16:01, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Some relevant points from Wikipedia:Don't disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point:
There is a direct parallel between this example and what User:66/68 has been doing. After Gbambino removed texzt that the anon user had added and requested a source for the additions, the anon user removed large portions of text and insisted that they be sourced, including really obvious bits like UCC being located in Toronto.
This is the basis for semi-protection of the article. because the anon user is not registered and edits from different IP numbers, it is not possible to block him/her. Semi-protection, unfortunately, prevents other unregistered users from editing, but protects Wikipedia from 66/68's disruptive behaviour. Ground Zero | t 22:20, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
Re the following passages (comments interspersed):
Comment: the use of "scare quotes" is unencyclopedic. One should only use quotation marks when one is referencing a real quotation, not for emphasis, sarcasm or to make a rhetorical point. Second, the reference to "token Black, Asian, Amerind and Jewish students" is a POV. If you can find a source that uses the term "token" to describe these students then reference it. Otherwise, its the editor's opinion an shouldn't be in the article. I would not be surprised to learn that the phrase "bastion of WASP privilege" has been used to describe UCC (indeed, it's a phrase I could easily have used myself) but a) if it's an actual quotation then there should be a reference b) if it's the editor's opinion it shoudn't be included unless there is a reference to back it up. Addendum I see that "bastion of WASP privilege" is now footnoted as an honest to goodness quotation. Good.
Comment:The phrase "deep-seated insidious racism" is POV. Cite an actual use of this phrase to describe UCC or drop it.
Comment:1) a source is needed. 2) wikipedia articles are not argumentative essays so they should not be written as such. 3) "wealthy heterosexual white male" belabours the point. In any case, I think readers can deduce on their own that Barton is white from the rest of the paragaraph. 4)calling him heterosexual makes an assumption beyond the reach of wikipedia.
If there is a citation for Barton having made the statement, I think the above bullet should be rewritten to read something along the lines of:
Comment': I haven't read the essay so I can't say if the term "institutional racism" is Sherman's analysis or that of the editor. If the latter, it shouldn't be used.
Comment: This looks like original research to me. Also, I seriously doubt the methodology of counting the number of Jews by looking at a photograph just as I'd doubt anyone who says they can count the number of Catholics by this method. Unless UCC had a policy of forcing Jews to wear yellow stars on their clothing I don't see how this can be done. Or is the editor asserting that some students "look Jewish"? If so, I would challenge his credibility when it comes to calling others on their racism. (Note: Various anti-Semitic regimes have forced Jews to adorn special clothing precisely because there is no reliable way of identifying who is and who is not a Jew by sight - at least not without violating public nudity laws and that method only works for men in some cultures where circumcision is uncommon.) Homey 23:24, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
"I have read the current posting of the UCC article on "Ethnicity". I assume this reflects the latest changes by gBambino. While, to his credit, it does now include reference to racism and prejudices exprienced by old boys, an objective observer cannot help but be left with the impression that these problems are now fixed and of no consequence. You are all educated people - to suggest otherwise is really nothing more than an exercise in semantics."
I agree, the section should not be written with the assumption that racism has been eradicated at UCC or even that it's no worse at UCC then it is elsewhere - unless an objective and verifiable study backs that up, such a claim is POV. Similarly, to imply that because x, y and z have been done racism no longer exists would be original research. I don't think we can proceed on the assumption that there is no racism at UCC until and unless evidence comes up to the contrary. Nor should we assume that racism is worse at UCC than elsewhere. We simply should not have a POV on the matter. Reading the section it's not clear to me that there is an assumption contained within that racism has been eradicated. There's simply a statement about a diversity council being established without any claim that this solves the problem. If there are more recent examples of racism or anti-Semitism at UCC then they should be excluded but I don't think we can not mention the diversity council simply because of the lack of countervaling evidence for racism. Was there a reaction to the council's formation? Criticism by UCC or members of the student body? Letters to the school paper decrying this as "political correctness"? If so, this should be included. Homey 23:31, 15 March 2006 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Resolving disputes
Just a note to those who are insisting that the anon IP must register. Such a position is not wikipedia policy. Edits should be taken on their own merits and there is no rule stating that editors must register (though there are rules concerning registered editors who use anon IPs as Sock puppets). However, anon IPs should be aware that their edits are generally seen as being less credible by editors than registered users and their edits are more likely to be scrutinized by other editors and admins. Also, due to recent problems with vandalism, wikipedia has instituted a semi-protection policy where some anon IPs can be excluded from certain articles for a time while registered users remain free to edit them thus, in a number of ways, anon IPs are "second class" users in practice even if this is not the case in policy. Homey 02:13, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Hi Anon,
Wow, there's been a lot of talking here. I sincerely hope you are reading the links to policy and advice pages I am including for you. I read your list of desires. It was 1) Verifiability 2) Admin reprimanding. Did you also want to address 3) Racism at UCC? Can you please clarify this? I have some observations of your strategies for getting your desires:
1) Verifiability
2) Admin reprimanding
3) UCC Racism
I hope you follow my advice as I advocate towards your stated objectives. ॐ Metta Bubble puff 02:53, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, that went well... -- gbambino 04:23, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
68.50.242.120 05:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
You know:
Before I came along, this is what UCC had to say about Ethnicity:
(under the "Today" section}
Unlike many other Canadian independent schools, UCC has a long history of ethnic students since its founding. The first black student appeared in 1831, the first Jewish student in 1836 and the first aboriginal student in 1840. Today, students from about 18 countries attend UCC, and comprise a substantial quantity of students in each of the offered years.
--> OMG, the bias in this previous version is sickening to me personally. It totally lacks any sourcing. The data is cherry picked to present one fringe radical view on ethnicity at UCC. Ugh.
This is what the new Ethnicity section says now: Ethnicity
UCC began admitting ethnic minority students early in its history. The first black student enrolled in 1831, the first Jewish student in 1836 and the first aboriginal student in 1840; some graduates from the Ojibway peoples of Upper Canada going on to study at Dartmouth College and Harvard University. [10]
Diplomat James George, a student between 1926 and 1936, said upon reflection about his time with other UCC graduates in the Canadian Department of Foreign Affairs: "If UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASP patriots, why did it produce so many internationalists?" [11]
UCC has maintained a reputation as a "bastion of WASP privilege." [12] Some students recall experiencing anti-Semitism; Graham Fraser, the Globe and Mail Washington Bureau Chief, who attended UCC between 1960 and 1964, recalled: "Anti-Semitism was generally an unspoken undercurrent at UCC, but a couple of times I witnessed overt anti-Semitism.... Before 1960, Toronto was a pretty narrow, close-minded, little Victorian town and Upper Canada College reflected that reality." [13]
Foermer Prep School Headmaster Richard Howard said in his book Upper Canada College, 1929-1979: Colborne's Legacy, published in 1979: "The growth of the enrolment has increased the number of boys from a wide variety of backgrounds and decreased the ratio of those from old Toronto families. The address list now reflects Toronto's ethnic variety and resembles a small United Nations." [14]
Motek Sherman, the editor of the school's yearbook The College Times in 1990, wrote an editorial stating that while UCC was no longer "a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal.... In my years at UCC I have faced anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bureaucracy." [15]
In 2002, student Adam Sheikh created the Diversity Council to celebrate the cultural diversity of the school's student population. This council, a body of students independent from the school administration, organizes celebrations of Chinese, Jewish, Christian and Ukranian cultures. [16]
Today, students from about 18 countries attend UCC. The international students typically come from among the wealthiest families in the countries of their origin.
--> Wow, what a change! It's balanced. It's neutral. It's verified. Sweet!
In addition, as a noob, I have learned about and USED to argue my point in a researched and logical fashion: NPOV, Notability (even correcting GBambino about the notability standards for music), personal attacks, assume good faith, verifiability, Wikinfo and no original research.
You guys should be thanking me for making this article so much better than it was before. Not harrassing me, calling me a dick, making flip remarks, giving me formal warnings, insulting me as a troll and trying to ban me. What's wrong with you people? Honestly, seriously, no joke. 66.208.54.226 12:36, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have been observing this dispute for some time and I must admit, until now only because it amused me.
Metta Bubble, I believe the problem here is that you started by advocating that user 66 be given a break and then repeatedly told him that as a result of his efforts, "I believe this strategy will result in you getting blocked for being a dick." I know you were probably trying to avoid making a personal judgment yourself, but by not making your views clear on this (i.e., 'I personally don't believe you are a dick'; or, 'I believe this would be the right thing to do') you made your views clear by omission. It's really hard to blame user 66 for suddenly being upset with you. Did not the Buddha say, "When they meet a sorrowful man, they should lament the bitterness of this ever-changing world"? User 66 is clearly confused and sorrowful about Wiki and was hoping for more of a constant in his advocate. You have to admit, whatever you think of his approach, the Ethnicity section does read a lot better because of his efforts. Peace.**** (unsigned comment)
There were two ways that User:66/68 could have improved the ethnicity section:
It seems pretty clear to me that the current, more NPOV version is not User:66/68's work, but the work of me and others who have suffered through his abuse. It is very sad that he is trying to take credit for something that looks nothing at all like what he was trying to impose on this article. I wish, I so very much wish, that he would choose to work with us rather than against us. We are reasonable people, and it does not take threats, insult and abuse to get us to make something NPOV. Ground Zero | t 13:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I agree with almost everything that GroundZero has written. Of course, it should be noted, however, that Meta Bubble did repeatedly call user 66/68 a "dick." This term may have some special meaning in the Wiki world which escapes me, but, I think immediately his/her use of this term negates any claim s/he might make to occupying some neutral vantage on the whole unfortunate episode which this discussion page would seem to represent. I realize how very difficult it can be to keep one's cool dealing with 66/68's style of argumentation (i.e., polemic), and I myself would be the first to admit that I lost my temper with him/her yesterday. That said, name calling will not help. Nor will it placate 66/68, I don't think, to have a supposed "neutral" perspective which begins almost immediately by calling him/her a "dick" (special meaning in Wiki notwithstanding, as user 66/68 is not registered and so, we can assume, would not understand any wiki jargon). I have to say I'm somewhat dissapointed.
I would also note that it, in my opinion, it takes two to tangle, and it seems somewhat disingenuous for one of the two engaged in a revert war to claim innocence: to be engaged in this sort of thing belies, to my mind at least, a *personal* interest in work, which may not be fully conducive to the aims and values of Wikipedia. I wonder if 66/68 might state once more, for the record, in a new section which will not be edited, exactly what his/her wants and needs in this whole unfortunate episode are. Then, responses can be concerned only with those wants and needs (on a point by point basis). I would also suggest a moratorium on commentary on 66/68's previous actions, prior to his/her concession that s/he was unfamiliar with the "rules" of Wiki, and especially since his/her *apology* for previous indiscretions on this page -- many of the responses here are obviously baiting. S/he has yet to apologise to me for his outburst yesterday, but I returned in kind, and want to be first to apologise. Take this or leave this -- but I would consider myself to have as neutral a position on this, again, whole unfortunate episode as anyone else I've seen here, besides, perhaps, 38 (though definitely not 38's colleague at work! :). WormwoodJagger 14:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I concur with Wormwood's comments, especially in two regards: (1) calling user 66 a dick (either directly or indirectly) was not necessary and did not add to the discussion; (2) this process has been a two-way street. Gbambino has repeatedly launched personal attacks against user 66 and, at the very minimum, Ground Zero has been prone to losing his or her temper with user 66.
What has been the unstated premise that has been driving this discussion is that there are clearly two perspectives that are clashing here. User 66 obviously feels that there are important facts about UCC's treatment of minorities which should be included in the article; on the opposite side of the fence, Gbambino is one of those Old Boys who appears sensitive to any suggestion that UCC is an exclusive community. You have locked anon users out of the article and therefore imposed the latter view on Wikipedia. You can rationalize and justify this all you want and throw around terms like "dick" and "vandalism" if it makes you feel better, but I do have one question for Ground Zero and the likes: if you lock anon users out of the article and consign them to the discussion page, do you really not expect some heightened level of frustration to be displayed? Peace. Blunders of the third kind 15:04, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
It would seem, then, that the semi-protection can be lifted. This will allow 66/68 and GroundZero and Gbambino to demonstrate their good faith by (i) assuaging the often repetead concern here that GroundZero and Gbambino have taken a proprietary interest in this page and (equally as oft repeted ) (ii) that 66/68 is incapable of reasoned dialogue. I look forward to seeing this page grow now. WormwoodJagger 15:58, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I completely agree with Wormwood. I think the semi-protection should be lifted as a concrete gesture of good faith.
And I don't want to prolong things when a civil tone seems to have returned to the discussion, but I did check out the link to *dick* as you suggested, and what I found is as follows: "Telling someone "Don't be a dick" is something of a dick-move in itself, so don't bandy the criticism about lightly." In any event, we seem to have moved passed it. I look forward to finding the semi-protection lifted. Blunders of the third kind 16:45, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Agreed -- let's all get back to work! 129.128.238.85 17:11, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I am not surprised that, once again, Ground Zero has chosen to comment recently and yet ignore my request for proof on his part for exceptions to Verifiability per below:
In the meanwhile, I will continue to:
If either Ground Zero or Gbambino or Metta Bubble want to stop personally attacking me and start having a civil discussion to prove where in Wiki policy they can unilaterally decide to ignore Verifiability, I welcome that discussion. Unfortunately, it seems they're far more interested in ignoring this issue and just calling me a troll and threatening to ban me. I think the reason is because they know that substantively, and logically, and technically, they are in the wrong on this and I am in the right. So it's easier to provoke and bait and insult in the meanwhile. Very, very sad.
66.208.54.226 17:19, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, Anon., at least we can agree on one thing: I certainly am ignoring this "issue." Good luck with your future ventures here at Wikipedia! -- gbambino 17:25, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have been considering WormwoodJagger's suggestion seriously. I have been around Wikipedia for a few years now, and have seen problems caused by people who have an axe to grind, a point to make, or a general unhappiness with the world. They can take up a lot of time for serious editors who are here to make worthwhile contributions. 66/68 has demonstrated, with her/his latest outburts, that lifting the semi-protection would simply give him another opportunity to be disruptive. He still seems to be asserting her/his right to remove large portions of text that he feels have not be referenced in order to make a point. I do not think that it is in the interests of Wikipedia to allow her/him to renew her/his disruptions. The anonymous editors and the newly-registered "Blunders" who have stopped y to support lifting the semi-protection are welcome to express their views. I will wait for people who have been around Wikipedia for a while, and have made contributions, to voice their opinions because I think that the decision should also reflect the thoughts of people who have a bit of experience with how Wikipedia works. As I've said above, if another administrator decides to lift the semi-protection, I will respect that decision. So far, none has.
User 66/68: I have advised you on how to seek my demotion. You must seek Arbitration to do so. You cannot get it here, so repeating your demands here is pointless. And I don't think that advocates can be demoted as I believe it is a completely voluntary and non-elected position. Ground Zero | t 17:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC) Ground Zero | t 17:50, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
GroundZero: Thanks for the consideration. Just to be clear: I didn't mean to advocate that the semi-protection be lifted, just that it be considered as a way to get beyond this issue. I think, clearly, you have every reason to be concerned about 66/68, especially after the last posting. I look forward to seeing how this progresses and, of course, defer to your seniority here. WormwoodJagger 20:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I have to express some frustration here. The fact that User 66 has at times engaged in terse or provocative language is undeniable. But even a cursory review of this discussion page bears out that throughout this dialogue both Ground Zero and Gbambino have often been dismissive and condescending towards User 66. Both users repeatedly assert that User 66 has shown a lack of good faith. But there is a complete lack of insight into their own lack of good faith. Once we examine the facts it becomes apparent that there is absolutely NOTHING User 66 could do to satisfy them to make any changes to the article as it exists. In essence, the article has become ossified by the prejudice of one user and one administrator.
Let’s examine the facts.
Repeatedly, both Gbambino and Ground Zero stated that a way to show good faith would be to register as a user. So that is exactly what I did. And what happens? (1) I am told that my point of view as a “new” user is largely irrelevant. In response to my suggestions, which obviously do not conflict with User 66 to a sufficient degree, Ground Zero writes:
The anonymous editors and the newly-registered "Blunders" who have stopped y to support lifting the semi-protection are welcome to express their views. I will wait for people who have been around Wikipedia for a while, and have made contributions, to voice their opinions[.]
(2) More disturbingly, on the Administrator’s Notice board, Ground Zero suggest by innuendo that I am a “sock puppet” for User 66. Why? Because it is inconceivable that anyone would support or even sympathize with User 66’s views. Can you really ask for any more cogent or compelling evidence that Ground Zero, as an administrator, does not take User 66’s views seriously at all? For the record, I am nobody’s “sock puppet”.
Whether or not I agree with all of User 66’s points or tactics is irrelevant. I believe that locking a site to anon users should only be an option of last resort. I fail to see how User 66’s insistence that Wikipedia abide by one of its own cardinal rules (i.e., verifiability) can be described as an act of “vandalism” or dismissed as an attempt to “prove a point”. When User 66 wanted to demonstrate that UCC’s student population did not reflect Toronto’s demographics he volunteered evidence which is routinely admissible in a court of law under cases dealing with the equality provisions (s. 15) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. For your information, Ground Zero, I find it somewhat ironic that when the Ontario Court of Appeal took judicial notice of racial profiling existing in the Toronto Police Force they were happy to do so under a far less exacting standard than you have insisted that User 66 provide for a single entry on Wikipedia: see http://www.ontariocourts.on.ca/decisions/2003/april/brownC37818.htm.
Note what Justice Morden says for a UNANIMOUS court: (para. 44) “A racial profiling claim could rarely be proven by direct evidence. This would involve an admission by a police officer that he or she was influenced by racial stereotypes in the exercise of his or her discretion to stop a motorist. Accordingly, if racial profiling is to be proven it must be done by inference drawn from circumstantial evidence.”
The same logic applies to UCC. Evidence of racial profiling in the student admissions body will rarely be capable of proof by direct evidence. After all, it is unlikely that the admissions committee will admit that they discriminate against minorities. So the only way the fact can be proven is through indirect or circumstantial evidence – such as, student body pictures in yearbooks.
With the greatest of respect, Ground Zero, your language in this dialogue admits to a level of intellectual dishonesty which I find inappropriate and ill-suited to a Wiki administrator. But what do I know, right? I’m only newly registered after all… Blunders of the third kind 21:47, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
Firstly, let me welcome you to Wikipedia. I hope that you enjoy your time here, and not be put off by this dispute. This is not typical of life here on Wikipedia. I do want to address some of the comments that you have made.
This is not supported by the facts. The fact is that the ethnicity section has now been changed significantly to make it more NPOV. You can review the article history to see the changes that have been made by clicking on the “History” tab at the top of the page. These changes result from valid comments made by unregistered and new users that Gbambino and I have incorporated into the article. The fact is that user 66/68 now agrees that it is NPOV. If you can indicate what parts of the section show the “prejudice of one user and one administrator”, then we can discuss what further changes would be appropriate.
No, you were not told that.
I ask that you to read to the end of the paragraph that you truncated: “I will wait for people who have been around Wikipedia for a while, and have made contributions, to voice their opinions because I think that the decision should also reflect the thoughts of people who have a bit of experience with how Wikipedia works.”
The emphasis on “also” is in the original . Further, please see my comments above about changes to the article resulting from comments made by unregistered and new users.
What I wrote was “may or may not be a sock-puppet”. I take your word for it that you are not a sock-puppet. User 66 has also been writing as User:68, so it is conceivable that s/he would be using other IP numbers and may have registered. I have now removed the statement to which you object. The context of my posting was to ask other admins to consider whether or not to lift the semi-protection that I imposed and continue to believe is appropriate. There is no requirement that I post such a request. As I have said above, I would respect the decision of another editor in this regard.
He demanded verification of UCC being in Toronto, being an elementary school, being a secondary school, and so on. These facts cannot be reasonably disputed especially since Gbambino provided a link to the school’s website, which identifies these facts.
Circumstantial evidence may well be relevant in the question that you cited. I have made the argument, and no-one has challenged it, that the racism that you and 66/68 claim is evidence is societal racism, not the racism of the school. I hope that I have been able to adress some of your concerns. Ground Zero | t 22:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
"And lastly, one has to ask, even if it could be proven that a look at the UCC graduating class photos showed that the school's ethnic diversity did not match that of greater Toronto, for what purpose would it be inserted into the article?" Really a question?
Thank you for your response (and your welcome), Ground Zero. The response I have to your last posting is below and is made in good faith. I am heartened by your assurances that what has happened to the UCC page is not typical of Wikipedia.
I am, as I have identified, a new user. I have done some a little research into Wikipedia over the last day or so. One of the things that I have found is that there is a rebuttable presumtpion that to the greatest extent possible all pages will be unprotected. This reflects the clear Wikipedia philosophy that the process of building an on-line dictionary works best when it is collaborative and dynamic. For this reason, Wikipedia official policy on page protection is as follows: “We strive to protect pages only when absolutely necessary and to unprotect them as soon as possible”: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:This_page_is_protected
In your response to me you stated, “If you can indicate what parts of the section show the “prejudice of one user and one administrator”, then we can discuss what further changes would be appropriate.”
I accept your invitation but I also want to register my objection. It is not at all clear to me that User 66/68’s activities constitute trolling or vandalism and that the integrity of the UCC page would be threatened if unprotected. I believe I ought to have the right to make the proposed edits directly to the UCC page rather than have to provide detailed explanations on the talk page. I believe that I am being deprived of my right to do so under clear violation of the Wikipedia policy cited above and once again I renew my request to have the page protection lifted.
In the interim, my proposed changes to the Ethnicity section are listed below:
1. James George Quote is Irrelevant
In the ethnicity section, Gbambino has cited an excerpt from a quote from James George lifted from the book, Old Boys. James George’s quote in full is as follows:
“Among my contemporaries at UCC, Arnold Smith, George Grant and myself all became Rhodes Scholars. Arnold Smith, who was four years older than me, got his Rhodes along with George Ignatieff. They both wound up in External Affairs. We had an extraordinary group of people in the External Affairs Department after the war who had a great deal of idealism that was internationalist in scope...if UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASP patriots, why did it produce so many internationalists.”
As you can see, this quote has absolutely nothing to do with ethnicity or the demographics of the student body. Rather, what James George is questioning is the assumption that a high school in a backwater colony would be incapable of producing original and international thinkers. If James George had asked, “if UCC really was a womb matrix for a bunch of WASPS, why did it produce so many distinguished alumni of different ethnicities?”, it would have relevance to the ethnicity section. The quote used, however, has none and therefore is really asserting a POV. I would eliminate it.
2. Richard Howard Quote is erroneously verified
The fourth paragraph of the Ethnicity section cites a quote from Richard Howard which states that UCC is akin to a mini United Nations. Even though it is stated that this quote is from Howard’s book, Colbourne’s Legacy, the quote is footnoted (#15) to a different book – James Fitzgerald’s Old Boys. When you click on the hyperlink provided, there is no reference to Richard Howard’s quote (or book, for that matter). I suspect that the footnotes might have got mixed up due to recent edits (as Howard’s book is now footnote #16) and this should be corrected.
3. Michael Ignatieff Quote Right on Point
What you do find in James Fitgerald’s book, however, is a quote that is extremely relevant to the Ethnicity section from Michael Ignatieff, former Harvard professor, current member of Parliament and Director of the Munk Centre for International Relations at the University of Toronto. Michael Ignatieff says:
"The UCC culture in my time was basically Tory, Anglican and fantastically patrician. I think anybody who was at UCC has to wrestle with the anomaly and irony of a patrician education in an egalitarian society like Canada. The contradiction is particularly flagrant...
The Canadian elite must be an open, permeable elite which is colour blind, religion blind and gender blind. There has to be an elite based not even on intelligence but character. They will mostly come from schools that bear no resemblance to Upper Canada College.”
This quote is completely relevant to the Ethnicity section and it is made by a prominent and respected intellectual and politician. I would definitely add this quote to the section.
4. Motek Sherman misquoted
In the section as drafted, Gbambino states the following:
“Motek Sherman, the editor of the school's yearbook The College Times in 1990, wrote an editorial stating that while UCC was no longer "a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal.... In my years at UCC I have faced anti-Semitism, ugliness, stupidity and bureaucracy”.”
Again, the footnote is to James Fitzgerald’s Old Boys. But when you link to it, you find that nowhere does Motek say that UCC is “no longer a white-bread, right-wing fortress: it has become much more multi-cultural and (dare I say it?) liberal.” This part of the quote does not exist anywhere in the cite provided. Instead, Motek comments, “to any outsider who was trying to attain membership in it, UCC had represented the holy grail of the WASP elite”.
I would eliminate the first (and unsupported) segment of the quote. I pause here to point out that if User 66/68 had committed such a serious error in sourcing, he or she doubtless would have been accused of bad faith and/or vandalism. I think the fact that Gbambino has escaped such criticism is indicative of an unfortunate and defining bias in this discussion.
The article then states that in 2002 a student (Adam Sheikh) created the “Diversity Council” at UCC to “celebrate the cultural diversity of the school's student population”. I don’t know where the author gets that the purpose of the Council is or was to celebrate cultural diversity, but what I do know is that a footnote link to verify the fact goes to the “Harmony Scholarship” website. That website says that the purpose of the Harmony Scholarship awards (of which Adam Sheikh was a recipient) is to recognize student efforts at “promoting harmony and challenging different forms of discrimination and prejudice in their schools and communities.”
So I would rewrite the section to read (in a more neutral and verifiable tone), “In 2002, student Adam Sheikh created the Diversity Council to celebrate the cultural diversity of the school's student population. For his efforts Adam received the Harmony Scholarship, an award that recognizes student efforts to promote harmony and challenge different forms of discrimination and prejudice in their schools and communities.”
Finally, the ethnicity section ends by stating that students of 18 different nationalities attend UCC. Surely this is a fact that requires verification. You have now issued an omnibus dismissal of User 66’s requests for verification because he has asked for verification of - to your mind - self-evident or obvious facts. Of course, these are not the only type of facts that User 66 has asked for verficiation for. Even assuming such requests fall outside the rubric of verifiability, the claim that students from 18 nationalities attend UCC does, in my opinion, require verification.
I think the Ethnicity section as currently drafted is riddled with errors and misstatements but can easily be corrected. I do not question the good faith of Gbambino and other contributing editors. I would ask that the same courtesy be extended to other users, including myself. I hope that it does not prove necessary to repeat this time-consuming exercise. If any future edits are to be made, I hope they can be made directly to the article. I hope my feedback has been constructive. Peace. Blunders of the third kind 18:20, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
As a result of Blunders' critique above, I just have to say:
See what happens when you don't adhere to verifiability? Or only apply verifiability scrutiny to one editor's prose (ie me) but not the other (ie gbambino)?
66.208.54.226 19:26, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
With regard to your comments about page rotection, I agree that it is not sopmething that should be done lightly. Preference should be given for keeping Wikipedia as open as possible. Wikipedia, however, has given itself procedures for preventing vandalism and other disruption, including page protection and blocking and banning users. These powers are provided only to those Wikipedians who have been chosen by their peers as administrators. In the seven months that I have been and administrator, I have used semi-pretection on only one occasion that I recall, and then it was only for two days. I have never used full page protection (which prevents even registered users other than administrators from editing), and I have not blocked any user.
I am disappointed that I have had to leave semi-protection on this article for so long. It is only because I believe that User 66/68 will continue to disrupt the article that I have left semi-protection on. I judge my actions by the responses of my peers:
So I do not think that I have overstepped my bounds as an administrator, and I do not think that it would be prudent to lift semi-protection yet.
Unfortunately, your right to edit is being limited by another anon user’s behaviour. Your reuqest to lift semi-protection is noted, but I believe, and apparently other admins believe, that continued semi-protection of this article is not a violation of Wikipedia policies. If another admin decides to lift semi-protection, I will respect that decision.
As far as the content goes, you have clearly done a lot of research, and raised a number of valid points. I see that Gbambino is addressing them, and making some of the changes. When he is done, we should revisit your comments to make sure that everything that should be reflected in the article is reflected. Regards, Ground Zero | t 21:08, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
"He demanded verification of UCC being in Toronto, being an elementary school, being a secondary school, and so on. These facts cannot be reasonably disputed especially since Gbambino provided a link to the school' website, which identifies these facts." Can it be assumed that these unverified POV assertions (according to Wiki standards) would be self-evident to readers in, say, Siberia? 129.128.67.23 22:04, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
GroundZero edited the scandal section at 14:55 March 17 to state that Brown was a history and geography teacher at the prep. http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Upper_Canada_College&diff=44217693&oldid=44214849
Uhhh.... what? If I recollect correctly, Brown was most of all an English teacher. Oh wait, here's a source for you: http://injusticebusters.com/04/Brown_Doug.shtml mentions several times that he's an English teacher. Never mentions history or geo (though I think he taught some such classes).
But please continue, GroundZero, putting in more UNVERIFIED stuff into the article. Fiction, hazy recollections, half truths, outright errors, they're all good. 68.50.242.120 22:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Mindmatrix, answer my question below in a civil and substantive manner. Cause as far as I am concerned, your little quip lacks verifiability.
68.50.242.120 23:05, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's try this: how about you verify that UCC is not in Toronto, is not an all-boy's school, is not an elementary school, and so on. A source affirming those facts has been provided, so it would really be of great benefit to your credibility if, instead of ranting, you could actually adhere to the Wikipedia policies you throw at others. Please, be an example to all of us, and help us improve our editing skills. -- gbambino 23:11, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
1) UCC's website is cited in footnote #1, which is at the end of the opening paragraph. The information which verifies that UCC is in Toronto, an all-boys school, and an elementary school is contained within. 2) Be careful with that libel thing again... 3) Go see your therapist. -- gbambino 23:40, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
Gbambino: I attended UCC during the same time (we probably know each other) and, to be fair, I took English with Doug Brown in Form 3, which would have been 1987. I remember reading Watership Down and The Wizard of Earthsea and spending an awful lot of time dissecting the mindless drivel of a stoned Roger Waters as though it were high art! :) I *also* took Geography with him the next year: he failed myself and every other hockey player in his class during the 2nd semester, and then, due to parent pressure, gave us all +90s as final grades. A real *star* academic, obviously.
Why is everyone so virulent again?!?!?! How about all of you taking a *deep* breath, maybe drinking a coke, and watching a bit of the Simpsons, before answering each other's edits? This is really frustrating, as I have a number of edits I would like to add, to begin my work on Wikipedia. I came here to learn and to participate.... It's a shame this is being ruined by what can, at times, seem like shouting matches between gatekeepers and visigoths! WormwoodJagger 23:29, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
I am registered but can't edit. Metta: I assume you've got me confused with someone else. Aren't you the moderator? WormwoodJagger 01:26, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Homey: UCC is an independent, not a *private* school (tongue so far into cheek, it looks like I'm eating a Toblerone :) WormwoodJagger 23:35, 17 March 2006 (UTC)
See this edit where the protection tag got removed. Too much argument not enough thought. CambridgeBayWeather (Talk) 01:58, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Let's Step Back and Clearly Identify the Issues Wow. I can’t believe the sheer mayhem that can ensue when you leave this site unattended for a few hours. I second Wormwood’s advice: we should all step back from the brink for a moment to collect our thoughts.
There has been so much emphasis placed on the fact that User 66 asked for verification or proof that UCC is located in Toronto. If you actually read the full exchange that has occurred on this page, you will see that User 66 asked for a lot more than that. I do not mean to speak for User 66, but clearly when he or she asked for proof that UCC was located in Toronto, he or she was frustrated by a perceived inconsistency in the application of Wikipedia rules to different users (such as verifiability, NPOV, etc.). To focus on one request for verification (i.e., whether UCC is located in Toronto) is, in my opinion, simply a straw man.
Even ignoring this one issue, there are serious and genuine claims in the UCC article that are currently are not verified. And everyone has lost sight of that fact. Everyone is so busy trying to decide if free access should be granted to the UCC sight that no one has questioned whether it is, after all, an accurate article. I note that earlier today when I pointed out numerous deficiencies in the “Ethnicity” section, corrections had to be made. And to Gbambino and Ground Zero’s credit, they were made.
At the risk of repeating what has already been stated (because I know Mindmatrix hates “cutting and pasting the same text”), please remember that User 66 also asked for verification of, inter alia, the following facts (which I would certainly label as beyond the pale of “commonly accepted”):
· The school was founded in the hopes it would serve as a feeder school to the newly established King's College
· The eclectic mix of different styles was typical of the overall concept of Victorian architecture.
· More than 400 graduates perished during both the First World War and the Second World War.
· By the early 20th century, the city was growing quickly around the Deer Park campus.
· By the 1960s, due to broader shifts in social paradigms, belief in the Cadets was faltering; religion and patriotism were not held in such high regard by youth, and rebellion was the more accepted behaviour for teenagers
I think it is completely genuine to insist that these facts be verified.
That said, let’s visit the controversial (if not ridiculed) issue of User 66’s request that proof or verification be provided of the fact that UCC is located in Toronto.
'Why Consistency of Approach is not a mere formality'
I do have to add my voice to the other users that have raised this point repeatedly: where is that stated in Wikipedia policy that commonly accepted or trivial facts do not need to be proved? What is so glaringly obvious about this endless back-and-forth is that if that were a such caveat to Wikipedia policy, surely it would have been cited by now. The fact that it has not can only lead one to the inevitable conclusion that such a policy does not exist.
Although I do not feel that I should have to defend myself for asking a question in good faith, I feel I must make it clear that I am not asking for substantiation of this point to bait or troll – I actually ask the question in good faith and here’s why: the common problem that occurs within any system of governance that dispenses with the need to prove or justify “commonly accepted” or “de minimus” facts is that they are prone to abuse.
Surely everyone is familiar with the concept of due process. There are criminal trials where an accused is clearly and undeniably guilty on the merits of the case but if they plead not guilty the Crown is still required to prove its’ case beyond a reasonable doubt each and every time. The Crown is not allowed to say, “Come on, your Honour – it is commonly accepted that this accused is guilty. Surely, you are not going to require me to actually PROVE it?” Why is proof still required, even in such cases? I would suggest it is because the ONLY way to preserve order in any system of knowledge (whether it be the common law or the gathering of encyclopedic information) is to adhere to unmistakably defined rules that do not admit to exceptions of convenience.
It is easy to dismiss the idea of having to prove that UCC is located in Toronto, right? In the same way that it is equally easy to prove that Saddam Hussein or Slobodon Milosevic are war criminals, right? Or that six million really died in the Holocaust, right?
It is no answer to say, “Well, the fact that UCC is located in Toronto is different than whether or not Milosevic was a war criminal because the former is well known to anyone familiar with the subject and free from controversy while the latter is by nature contentious”. That misses the point. The moment you separate and divide facts into different categories (such as “accepted” or “trivial” or “contentious” or “important”) you are once again faced with the same overriding dilemma: just WHO exactly decides what facts are accepted and what facts are contentious? And I am not being facetious. To an ultra-nationalist Serbian, Slobodon Milosevic is a patriotic and political hero without compromise. To an ultra-conservative Christian, abortion is murder without compromise. To them, there is nothing contentious in such facts at all.
In order to avoid dealing with such quagmires, Wikipedia has a policy of verifiability. If you adhere to a strict and textual interpretation of Wikipedia policy (and I have seen nothing to suggest that a deviation from such a method of exegesis is justified), the moment a fact is challenged by one, it becomes contentious. The alternative is absolute chaos. You win the battle on this subject of UCC, but tell me, Mindmatrix, do you really want pro-lifers to cite your precedent that:
(1) If they are in the majority their view of the ‘facts’ govern unless and until the minority can prove them wrong;
(2) If they are familiar with a subject (such as abortion) they are entitled to state what they, as the majority, view as “basic, undisputable facts” because “base level knowlegde has to be assumed at some point”?
(3) They are entitled to determine, of course, what is “contentious” and what is “accepted”, provided they adhere (in their judgment as the majority, of course) to your litmus test of whether or not a fact is “likely to be challenged” (and I assume that challenges by anyone deemed to be a troll or vandal can be summarily dismissed)?
Would you be willing to post the exact same views that you have expressed here on the UCC discussion page on the abortion or Holocaust articles or discussion pages for Wikipedia? If you are, I would invite you to do so (or I can do it for you) and I believe you would have provided a full answer to my objection; if not, what you are saying cannot be valid and is only an argument of convenience.
While I accept, as you have pointed out Mindmatrix, that commonly accepted facts do not need to be verified for peer-reviewed publications, surely you realize that Wikipedia is the antithesis of peer-reviewed publications. I think it would be safe to go so far as to say that Wikipedia is a genuine anathema to peer-reviewed publications, since it can be edited by anonymous parties. And the less control you have over WHO is editing, the more strict the adherence to the rules about WHAT is edited and HOW it is edited (i.e., verifiability, no POV, etc.).
Again, I feel I must say that I make these points in good faith. I hope the fact that I express disagreement with the “majority” is not construed as “trolling” or “vandalism” or even mada fides. I would like to engage in a genuine discussion. If anyone else shares this interest, feedback would be appreciated. I would like to resolve this issue once and for all before it spreads to other pages. Let’s face it: Wikipedia does not need any more bad press. Peace. Blunders of the third kind 04:14, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Blunders, thank you for taking the time to post such well-considered comemtns. I will respond on your talk page.
Ground Zero |
t 17:47, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Could somebody please tell me where I can find information on how to insert footnotes? Thanks WormwoodJagger 14:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)