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Does Aristotle ever mention why there is no unmoved mover for the earth? I understand he says that the unmoved mover occupies the space beyond the celestial stars for the celestial bodies, however it is my understanding that Aristotle believes the earth is in the center of the universe and therefore does not move. However, is there no explanation as to why there is no unmoved mover for the earth other than it is at the center of the universe and is motionless? Wehl0000 ( talk) 22:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Is it possible to add a section on the flaws of Aristotle's reasoning, or would that be POV? 68.122.97.87 ( talk) 17:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
That which moves without moving is a pre-scientific term for "catalyst" (a word of Greek origin.) Any theological issues arise from the question: "What is the origin of the catalyst?" RC Silk ( talk) 18:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
A short comment: If the above is true, then Aristotle's UMM is not differentiated from Avicenna's God. The essence of the UMM is entelekheia, not existence. It's necessity is also distinct from Avicenna's use. Maybe I will add a comment in a week or two. 132.205.103.129 22:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
There is definitely a bias on this page which conveniently assumes all Aristotle's arguments to be true, and doesn't seem to be an accurate description of the Unmoved Mover but rather an extol to Aristotle. 169.232.122.40 18:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Everlock
I added a section on Aristotle's reasoning, but unfortunately don't have time to track down a reference right now. I also note that the "Substance and change" section claims there were three types of substances, but only describes two. If I have time to dig out my old philosophy notes I will try to clean this up. -- Culix 18:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the primary explanation in the article is an incorrect view of what Aristotle meant when he was talking about an unmoved mover, as alluded to in the Aristotelian response to modern criticism. A better view of an Unmoved Mover would be to imagine a caboose moving along a track, and knowing that there is an engine, which is to say, the engine is the foundation and underlying, persistent cause of the caboose moving. It isn't that the Unmoved Mover started the universe, it's that the universe's existence is contingent on the unmoved mover's existence. The problem is that what Aristotle meant by "movement" isn't in the scientific sense of, "Motion," but rather, change. The unmoved mover would be better translated as, the unchanged changer, even if it would be inconvenient to make this the premise of the article, given that "unmoved mover" is more well know, and more often used. Magicalhats15 ( talk) 23:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is the concept of a god not mentioned once in the entire article? In fact, why is the word god not even on this page, even as a "related page" link? This is ridiculous, it is the fundamental concept of god(s), the prime mover(s)! Nobody can refute that this is in fact the same exact idea as the existence of a god or gods! Will someone clarify if I'm missing something? - Karonaway 04:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
What is the difference between the Unmoved Mover and the First Cause? -- Dominus Noster ( talk) 16:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I think that merging this page with the suggested page is fine, as long as this title will remain searchable. I found this page today b/c I was looking for "unmoved mover". I would never have thought to search for "primum mobilus" (or any other Harry Potter-esque phrase). :)
And as far as the content goes, this is exactly the kind of overview I was looking for. Adding more sources may be worthwhile, but I definitely think this page is useful, even in its current, limited form.
Sah65 ( talk) 17:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
This page has it in in Greke in the Greek letters, but doesn't alsot transliterate it into English letter so I can know how to say it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.34.34 ( talk) 18:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
As noted in #Cleanup above, the section on #reasoning was added, in good faith I'm sure, but without the benefit of source. I've removed it because it's not correct, but it is a common mistake to presuppose Aristotle is arguing for modern cause of the beginning of the cosmos. He believed the cosmos to eternal and had no efficient cause, but rather, a final cause (telos) which, confusingly, is called the first cause. It first in logical sense, as in a priori or priority… Here's Ross:
The Creation re-mix of the cosmological argument is by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Sometimes Aristotle was a lousy Catholic, but when possible, Thomas was an excellent Aristotelian, here's his explanation (Prima Pars, Q. 18, Obj. 2) in Summa Theologica of Aristotle's live all-singing/all-dancing planetary substances that people the sky. We can't see the unmoved movers, and they're not looping with uniform circular motion, but the sun, moon, planets and stars impersonate the gods with such uncanny perfection, it's like Jupiter is Zeus and Venus is Aphrodite, etc.— Machine Elf 1735 17:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Shields p.222 gives a similar outline for Physics VIII, (apparently more for reference than readability). Here's a condensed paraphrase:
Which is close, but I get the feeling it was an outline of Thomas' Summa, (Prima Pars q.2 a.3):
I'm thinking, give the outline for Aristotle, and include Thomas' entire argument as an extended quote?— Machine Elf 1735 19:02, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, clear as mud. Thomas' first argument (from final cause) corresponds to Phys. VIII which is outlined above. (I meant to say that outline is close to the outline I removed, as opposed to his first arg). Here's a copy from the original post:
Below is Thomas' second argument (from first cause / efficient cause) which I think looks closer to (both) outlines than his first argument. I'm not opposed to adding them to the article or anything. Now, I'm even wondering if it's such a good idea to quote his entire final cause argument. The thought was that people tend to think the second argument below, corresponds to Phys. VIII, (superficially it does). It seems like quoting both would be too much, but maybe they could be trimmed down or just outlined (I see all 5 of them are fully quoted on the 5 ways article):
— Machine Elf 1735 16:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Primum movens ( Latin), usually referred to as the Prime mover or first cause in English, is a term used in the philosophy of Aristotle, in the theological cosmological argument for the existence of God, and in cosmogony, the source of the cosmos or "all-being".
In book 12 of his Metaphysics, Aristotle used the phrase τι ὃ οὐ κινούμενον κινεῖ ("something which moves [other things] without [itself] being moved [by anything]") [1] -- i.e., the unmoved mover. When applied in his physics, this led to the view that all natural motions are uncaused and therefore self-explanatory. [2] Causality is linear, so causality or motion must be finally attributed to a first cause, which logically cannot itself be moved, i.e. the unmoved mover. To Aristotle the first cause is energy or energeia (in Greek) or actus (in Latin): energy causes motion. This is the foundation for the theory of actualism, a non-idealist philosophy of nature, science, logic, and mathematics. [3] Aristotle's actualistic ontology is a denial of "potential ontology" - that Being is the first cause of the cosmos.
References
As a rough and ready usage gauge, "Unmoved mover"+aristotle gets 127k hits ("first mover" gets more, 195k), whereas "prime mover"+aristotle gets 685k hits. (If you're curious, "Unmoved" and "Prime" get around the same Google Books hits, whereas "Prime" gets twice as many Scholar hits.) Before we redirect Primum movens here and switch all the links over, do we want to rename this article? "Prime mover" seems pretty commonplace, assuming we don't want a Latin or Greek title. - Silence ( talk) 04:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I tend to think a merge of all materials we have into the sub-sections of one article is neatest for now, partly because you can propose SEVERAL ways of eventually splitting this subject up "one day", but it is actually unlikely anyone will ever spend the time to do it, and when they do, they can easily fix the problem by creating new articles. Also, people who coming looking for information on such a medieval subject will often not even know WHICH aspect they are looking for. The fact that the concept is used in MANY ways, all "old fashioned" reminds me of nous, which I have made one article of. I at least could not come up with a better solution in that case. I have no strong opinion on which title to use. -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Interesting to see how many of the Also See articles are already covering cosmological aspects, so there is no shortage of places where the cosmologically inclined can expand about that. (Not that I see any problem fitting in at least a fair bit of cosmology in this article.)-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
As I explained last time, it is a bad idea to merge unmoved mover ( causeless cause) and prime mover (first cause,) because in any philosophy that uses the concepts distinctly (such as Hinduism, Judaism, the ancient Germanic religion, Meister Eckhart's philosophy,) the prime mover is moved by the unmoved mover. 'Prime/first' indicates a point in time or maybe also space, but 'unmoved' indicates eternity and infinity, and in these philosophies, the unmoved mover moves the prime mover, which only comes into action after a certain time, and then eventually stops, usually to be moved again and return to action (such as in Hinduism when Parabrahm (unmoved mover; transcendent Saguna Brahman) causes Brahman (prime mover; immanent Nirguna Brahman) to create the universe, which is then eventually destroyed, and only Parabrahm remains, until moving Brahman into action again to create a new universe.) Typical Westerners confuse the two movers because their religions (besides Judaism in Kabbalah, and esoteric analysis of ancient German religion) do not usually deal with the idea of an unmoved mover. It is only when people consider questions like 'before the universe was caused, what led to the cause of the universe?' do they deal with the idea of an unmoved mover, rather than merely a prime mover. Without both being distinct, there is no coherent answer to that question except with some other causality theory such as dependent arising, which does not have such 'movers.' Apparently my merge suggestion did not have the right link to causeless cause, but it is fixed now. Here is a chart comparing the ideas of unmoved mover, first mover, second mover, and third mover in various philosophies/religions: http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/tabulation.htm .-- Dchmelik ( talk) 11:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The article states definitively that Aristotle was a polytheist based on two footnotes. The first is to a review of a book arguing for a "revolutionary thesis" that Aristotle was a refined polytheist. The second footnote is to a blog which does not even discuss the matter. Most likely it is trying to introduce a response to the blog which is nothing more than an unsubstantiated statement. First, such a statement belongs more properly in the article about Aristotle himself; second, the proof for the statement is insufficient to demonstrate academic consensus and thus should not be portrayed as fact; and finally, just what does the statement contribute to the overall argument of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.214.133 ( talk) 06:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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Steel1943 (
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Why isn't this page under the category Arguments for the existence of God? I understand there can be some debate about this topic. It's intention, ramifications, etc. But let's be honest here, this topic is WIDELY used and thought of in the context of God's existence, especially recently by modern philosophers. 134.16.113.7 ( talk) 00:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)
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Does Aristotle ever mention why there is no unmoved mover for the earth? I understand he says that the unmoved mover occupies the space beyond the celestial stars for the celestial bodies, however it is my understanding that Aristotle believes the earth is in the center of the universe and therefore does not move. However, is there no explanation as to why there is no unmoved mover for the earth other than it is at the center of the universe and is motionless? Wehl0000 ( talk) 22:06, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
Is it possible to add a section on the flaws of Aristotle's reasoning, or would that be POV? 68.122.97.87 ( talk) 17:59, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
That which moves without moving is a pre-scientific term for "catalyst" (a word of Greek origin.) Any theological issues arise from the question: "What is the origin of the catalyst?" RC Silk ( talk) 18:30, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
A short comment: If the above is true, then Aristotle's UMM is not differentiated from Avicenna's God. The essence of the UMM is entelekheia, not existence. It's necessity is also distinct from Avicenna's use. Maybe I will add a comment in a week or two. 132.205.103.129 22:04, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
There is definitely a bias on this page which conveniently assumes all Aristotle's arguments to be true, and doesn't seem to be an accurate description of the Unmoved Mover but rather an extol to Aristotle. 169.232.122.40 18:38, 26 April 2007 (UTC)Everlock
I added a section on Aristotle's reasoning, but unfortunately don't have time to track down a reference right now. I also note that the "Substance and change" section claims there were three types of substances, but only describes two. If I have time to dig out my old philosophy notes I will try to clean this up. -- Culix 18:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think the primary explanation in the article is an incorrect view of what Aristotle meant when he was talking about an unmoved mover, as alluded to in the Aristotelian response to modern criticism. A better view of an Unmoved Mover would be to imagine a caboose moving along a track, and knowing that there is an engine, which is to say, the engine is the foundation and underlying, persistent cause of the caboose moving. It isn't that the Unmoved Mover started the universe, it's that the universe's existence is contingent on the unmoved mover's existence. The problem is that what Aristotle meant by "movement" isn't in the scientific sense of, "Motion," but rather, change. The unmoved mover would be better translated as, the unchanged changer, even if it would be inconvenient to make this the premise of the article, given that "unmoved mover" is more well know, and more often used. Magicalhats15 ( talk) 23:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
Why is the concept of a god not mentioned once in the entire article? In fact, why is the word god not even on this page, even as a "related page" link? This is ridiculous, it is the fundamental concept of god(s), the prime mover(s)! Nobody can refute that this is in fact the same exact idea as the existence of a god or gods! Will someone clarify if I'm missing something? - Karonaway 04:44, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
What is the difference between the Unmoved Mover and the First Cause? -- Dominus Noster ( talk) 16:40, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
I think that merging this page with the suggested page is fine, as long as this title will remain searchable. I found this page today b/c I was looking for "unmoved mover". I would never have thought to search for "primum mobilus" (or any other Harry Potter-esque phrase). :)
And as far as the content goes, this is exactly the kind of overview I was looking for. Adding more sources may be worthwhile, but I definitely think this page is useful, even in its current, limited form.
Sah65 ( talk) 17:04, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
This page has it in in Greke in the Greek letters, but doesn't alsot transliterate it into English letter so I can know how to say it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.144.34.34 ( talk) 18:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
As noted in #Cleanup above, the section on #reasoning was added, in good faith I'm sure, but without the benefit of source. I've removed it because it's not correct, but it is a common mistake to presuppose Aristotle is arguing for modern cause of the beginning of the cosmos. He believed the cosmos to eternal and had no efficient cause, but rather, a final cause (telos) which, confusingly, is called the first cause. It first in logical sense, as in a priori or priority… Here's Ross:
The Creation re-mix of the cosmological argument is by Saint Thomas Aquinas. Sometimes Aristotle was a lousy Catholic, but when possible, Thomas was an excellent Aristotelian, here's his explanation (Prima Pars, Q. 18, Obj. 2) in Summa Theologica of Aristotle's live all-singing/all-dancing planetary substances that people the sky. We can't see the unmoved movers, and they're not looping with uniform circular motion, but the sun, moon, planets and stars impersonate the gods with such uncanny perfection, it's like Jupiter is Zeus and Venus is Aphrodite, etc.— Machine Elf 1735 17:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Shields p.222 gives a similar outline for Physics VIII, (apparently more for reference than readability). Here's a condensed paraphrase:
Which is close, but I get the feeling it was an outline of Thomas' Summa, (Prima Pars q.2 a.3):
I'm thinking, give the outline for Aristotle, and include Thomas' entire argument as an extended quote?— Machine Elf 1735 19:02, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, clear as mud. Thomas' first argument (from final cause) corresponds to Phys. VIII which is outlined above. (I meant to say that outline is close to the outline I removed, as opposed to his first arg). Here's a copy from the original post:
Below is Thomas' second argument (from first cause / efficient cause) which I think looks closer to (both) outlines than his first argument. I'm not opposed to adding them to the article or anything. Now, I'm even wondering if it's such a good idea to quote his entire final cause argument. The thought was that people tend to think the second argument below, corresponds to Phys. VIII, (superficially it does). It seems like quoting both would be too much, but maybe they could be trimmed down or just outlined (I see all 5 of them are fully quoted on the 5 ways article):
— Machine Elf 1735 16:32, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
Primum movens ( Latin), usually referred to as the Prime mover or first cause in English, is a term used in the philosophy of Aristotle, in the theological cosmological argument for the existence of God, and in cosmogony, the source of the cosmos or "all-being".
In book 12 of his Metaphysics, Aristotle used the phrase τι ὃ οὐ κινούμενον κινεῖ ("something which moves [other things] without [itself] being moved [by anything]") [1] -- i.e., the unmoved mover. When applied in his physics, this led to the view that all natural motions are uncaused and therefore self-explanatory. [2] Causality is linear, so causality or motion must be finally attributed to a first cause, which logically cannot itself be moved, i.e. the unmoved mover. To Aristotle the first cause is energy or energeia (in Greek) or actus (in Latin): energy causes motion. This is the foundation for the theory of actualism, a non-idealist philosophy of nature, science, logic, and mathematics. [3] Aristotle's actualistic ontology is a denial of "potential ontology" - that Being is the first cause of the cosmos.
References
As a rough and ready usage gauge, "Unmoved mover"+aristotle gets 127k hits ("first mover" gets more, 195k), whereas "prime mover"+aristotle gets 685k hits. (If you're curious, "Unmoved" and "Prime" get around the same Google Books hits, whereas "Prime" gets twice as many Scholar hits.) Before we redirect Primum movens here and switch all the links over, do we want to rename this article? "Prime mover" seems pretty commonplace, assuming we don't want a Latin or Greek title. - Silence ( talk) 04:28, 1 December 2011 (UTC)
I tend to think a merge of all materials we have into the sub-sections of one article is neatest for now, partly because you can propose SEVERAL ways of eventually splitting this subject up "one day", but it is actually unlikely anyone will ever spend the time to do it, and when they do, they can easily fix the problem by creating new articles. Also, people who coming looking for information on such a medieval subject will often not even know WHICH aspect they are looking for. The fact that the concept is used in MANY ways, all "old fashioned" reminds me of nous, which I have made one article of. I at least could not come up with a better solution in that case. I have no strong opinion on which title to use. -- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:22, 2 December 2011 (UTC)
Interesting to see how many of the Also See articles are already covering cosmological aspects, so there is no shortage of places where the cosmologically inclined can expand about that. (Not that I see any problem fitting in at least a fair bit of cosmology in this article.)-- Andrew Lancaster ( talk) 16:02, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
As I explained last time, it is a bad idea to merge unmoved mover ( causeless cause) and prime mover (first cause,) because in any philosophy that uses the concepts distinctly (such as Hinduism, Judaism, the ancient Germanic religion, Meister Eckhart's philosophy,) the prime mover is moved by the unmoved mover. 'Prime/first' indicates a point in time or maybe also space, but 'unmoved' indicates eternity and infinity, and in these philosophies, the unmoved mover moves the prime mover, which only comes into action after a certain time, and then eventually stops, usually to be moved again and return to action (such as in Hinduism when Parabrahm (unmoved mover; transcendent Saguna Brahman) causes Brahman (prime mover; immanent Nirguna Brahman) to create the universe, which is then eventually destroyed, and only Parabrahm remains, until moving Brahman into action again to create a new universe.) Typical Westerners confuse the two movers because their religions (besides Judaism in Kabbalah, and esoteric analysis of ancient German religion) do not usually deal with the idea of an unmoved mover. It is only when people consider questions like 'before the universe was caused, what led to the cause of the universe?' do they deal with the idea of an unmoved mover, rather than merely a prime mover. Without both being distinct, there is no coherent answer to that question except with some other causality theory such as dependent arising, which does not have such 'movers.' Apparently my merge suggestion did not have the right link to causeless cause, but it is fixed now. Here is a chart comparing the ideas of unmoved mover, first mover, second mover, and third mover in various philosophies/religions: http://users.ez2.net/nick29/theosophy/tabulation.htm .-- Dchmelik ( talk) 11:59, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
The article states definitively that Aristotle was a polytheist based on two footnotes. The first is to a review of a book arguing for a "revolutionary thesis" that Aristotle was a refined polytheist. The second footnote is to a blog which does not even discuss the matter. Most likely it is trying to introduce a response to the blog which is nothing more than an unsubstantiated statement. First, such a statement belongs more properly in the article about Aristotle himself; second, the proof for the statement is insufficient to demonstrate academic consensus and thus should not be portrayed as fact; and finally, just what does the statement contribute to the overall argument of the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.250.214.133 ( talk) 06:27, 24 March 2015 (UTC)
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An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect
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Steel1943 (
talk)
18:43, 4 January 2023 (UTC)
Why isn't this page under the category Arguments for the existence of God? I understand there can be some debate about this topic. It's intention, ramifications, etc. But let's be honest here, this topic is WIDELY used and thought of in the context of God's existence, especially recently by modern philosophers. 134.16.113.7 ( talk) 00:21, 14 July 2023 (UTC)