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I'm challenging
this edit by
User:ElKevbo on 1 January 2023 which doesn't make sense. First, UCSF is a health sciences campus of which the medical school is only one part, so to call it a "medical school" is simply inaccurate. Second, as a "Special Focus" institution, UCSF is a research university under the Carnegie Classification. As
this Web page explains in the first paragraph, the "Special Focus Research Institution" category is "comprised of the special focus institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a 'Research University' but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs." Any objections before I fix this?
Coolcaesar (
talk)
15:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC)reply
First, the statement that "as a 'Special Focus' institution, UCSF is a research university under the Carnegie Classification" is blatantly incorrect. If this were a research university under the classification's criteria then it would be classified as such. It's a really
bad idea for Wikipedia editors to impose their own judgment over what is documented in reliable sources. Second, the notion that a medical school is limited or narrowly focused is a misunderstanding of what many modern medical schools do.
With that said, the other source to which we frequently turn when asking how to describe an institution in the lede, especially the very first sentence and the infobox, is the
U.S. News & World Report rankings. They
classify the institution among "Global universities," an argument in favor of changing the article although it's not entirely clear if "research university" is the most appropriate label (in the prose, US&WR describes the institution as a "health sciences-focused university"). Maybe we can borrow a page from other articles like
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center and describe the institution as a "
publicacademic health science center?"
ElKevbo (
talk)
23:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You are misreading what
WildCowboy said. UCSF is defined as "Special Focus Research Institution" by Carnegie, which the definition says : "comprised of the special focus institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a 'Research University' but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs.". This is not WildCowboy's interpetation, its spelled out cearly that this is a subset of Research Universities, not something lesser.
Eccekevin (
talk)
00:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)reply
The concern over calling it a medical school doesn't have anything to do with a perception of a narrow focus. There are three other professional schools (dentistry, nursing, and pharmacy) and a graduate division that are also part of the university beyond the medical school. I could probably get behind calling it an academic health science center though. Honestly, I'm a little surprised UCSF qualifies as a Special Focus institution under Carnegie given the good balance between biological sciences (CIP Code 26) and health professions (CIP Code 51), plus a few programs that probably fit into other CIP2 categories. Among Special Focus Research Institutions, I feel like like UCSF is possibly most similar to
OHSU, which is described as research university in its Wikipedia lede and infobox. I don't think Carnegie Classification necessarily needs to be the final word on how an institution is described here, but at a minimum I hope we can agree it should be something broader than just "medical school."
WildCowboy (
talk)
00:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You might not want to lean on OHSU as a good example; it's also classified as a "Special Focus Four-Year: Research Institution" in the Carnegie Classification but USN&WR classifies it as a medical school.
ElKevbo (
talk)
03:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
I specifically picked OHSU because it was listed in the same Special Focus category as UCSF and I wanted to see what Wikipedia editors had opted to describe it as for comparison. As for U.S. News, OHSU is not classified as a medical school; you must be looking specifically at the ranking of the med school. OHSU as a whole is a
global university like UCSF.
WildCowboy (
talk)
03:14, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
After thinking about this more, I agree that "medical school" may not be the best description. But I'm still not convinced that "research university" is the best description either (but it's probably better than medical school). I still think that "
publicacademic health science center" warrants consideration.
ElKevbo (
talk)
19:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Research University absolutely is the best description. Across all American universities, it has the second (2nd) highest Research spending, with 1.71 billion dollars - that's more than Harvard, Stanford, etc... Only Johns Hopkins has a higher research budget in the whole country. This fact alone goes against the idea that it is not a research university. : it is the top public recipient of
NIH research money, and few places on earth have a higher research output. I'd invite you to look at
University_of_California,_San_Francisco#Research and try to deny that the massive research output and focus does not match the definition of research university. Also, 'medical school' is simply inaccurate, since it is made up of five schools, only one of each is a medical school (the largest school). In accordance with
WP:BRD, I reverted the change to status quo ante until the discussion is completed. People don't think of it as a proper university because it does not hosts undergrads, but those in the know are aware of its massive research output, possibly the most of any university when it comes to medical and biological research. [1][2]
Finally, it is not even true that Carnegie doesn't classify as such: In addition, there is a new category Special Focus Research Institution, comprised of the special focus, institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a Research University but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs.[5] So according to Carnegie, UCSF meets the criteria for being considered a “Research University" .
Eccekevin (
talk)
00:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the
U.S. state of California on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.CaliforniaWikipedia:WikiProject CaliforniaTemplate:WikiProject CaliforniaCalifornia articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Neuroscience, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Neuroscience on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.NeuroscienceWikipedia:WikiProject NeuroscienceTemplate:WikiProject Neuroscienceneuroscience articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Higher education, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
higher education,
universities, and
colleges on Wikipedia. Please visit the project page to join the
discussion, and see the project's
article guideline for useful advice.Higher educationWikipedia:WikiProject Higher educationTemplate:WikiProject Higher educationHigher education articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject University of California, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles relating to
University of California, its history, accomplishments and other topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.University of CaliforniaWikipedia:WikiProject University of CaliforniaTemplate:WikiProject University of CaliforniaUniversity of California articles
I'm challenging
this edit by
User:ElKevbo on 1 January 2023 which doesn't make sense. First, UCSF is a health sciences campus of which the medical school is only one part, so to call it a "medical school" is simply inaccurate. Second, as a "Special Focus" institution, UCSF is a research university under the Carnegie Classification. As
this Web page explains in the first paragraph, the "Special Focus Research Institution" category is "comprised of the special focus institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a 'Research University' but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs." Any objections before I fix this?
Coolcaesar (
talk)
15:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC)reply
First, the statement that "as a 'Special Focus' institution, UCSF is a research university under the Carnegie Classification" is blatantly incorrect. If this were a research university under the classification's criteria then it would be classified as such. It's a really
bad idea for Wikipedia editors to impose their own judgment over what is documented in reliable sources. Second, the notion that a medical school is limited or narrowly focused is a misunderstanding of what many modern medical schools do.
With that said, the other source to which we frequently turn when asking how to describe an institution in the lede, especially the very first sentence and the infobox, is the
U.S. News & World Report rankings. They
classify the institution among "Global universities," an argument in favor of changing the article although it's not entirely clear if "research university" is the most appropriate label (in the prose, US&WR describes the institution as a "health sciences-focused university"). Maybe we can borrow a page from other articles like
University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center and describe the institution as a "
publicacademic health science center?"
ElKevbo (
talk)
23:43, 30 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You are misreading what
WildCowboy said. UCSF is defined as "Special Focus Research Institution" by Carnegie, which the definition says : "comprised of the special focus institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a 'Research University' but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs.". This is not WildCowboy's interpetation, its spelled out cearly that this is a subset of Research Universities, not something lesser.
Eccekevin (
talk)
00:56, 1 April 2023 (UTC)reply
The concern over calling it a medical school doesn't have anything to do with a perception of a narrow focus. There are three other professional schools (dentistry, nursing, and pharmacy) and a graduate division that are also part of the university beyond the medical school. I could probably get behind calling it an academic health science center though. Honestly, I'm a little surprised UCSF qualifies as a Special Focus institution under Carnegie given the good balance between biological sciences (CIP Code 26) and health professions (CIP Code 51), plus a few programs that probably fit into other CIP2 categories. Among Special Focus Research Institutions, I feel like like UCSF is possibly most similar to
OHSU, which is described as research university in its Wikipedia lede and infobox. I don't think Carnegie Classification necessarily needs to be the final word on how an institution is described here, but at a minimum I hope we can agree it should be something broader than just "medical school."
WildCowboy (
talk)
00:58, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
You might not want to lean on OHSU as a good example; it's also classified as a "Special Focus Four-Year: Research Institution" in the Carnegie Classification but USN&WR classifies it as a medical school.
ElKevbo (
talk)
03:05, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
I specifically picked OHSU because it was listed in the same Special Focus category as UCSF and I wanted to see what Wikipedia editors had opted to describe it as for comparison. As for U.S. News, OHSU is not classified as a medical school; you must be looking specifically at the ranking of the med school. OHSU as a whole is a
global university like UCSF.
WildCowboy (
talk)
03:14, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
After thinking about this more, I agree that "medical school" may not be the best description. But I'm still not convinced that "research university" is the best description either (but it's probably better than medical school). I still think that "
publicacademic health science center" warrants consideration.
ElKevbo (
talk)
19:23, 31 March 2023 (UTC)reply
Research University absolutely is the best description. Across all American universities, it has the second (2nd) highest Research spending, with 1.71 billion dollars - that's more than Harvard, Stanford, etc... Only Johns Hopkins has a higher research budget in the whole country. This fact alone goes against the idea that it is not a research university. : it is the top public recipient of
NIH research money, and few places on earth have a higher research output. I'd invite you to look at
University_of_California,_San_Francisco#Research and try to deny that the massive research output and focus does not match the definition of research university. Also, 'medical school' is simply inaccurate, since it is made up of five schools, only one of each is a medical school (the largest school). In accordance with
WP:BRD, I reverted the change to status quo ante until the discussion is completed. People don't think of it as a proper university because it does not hosts undergrads, but those in the know are aware of its massive research output, possibly the most of any university when it comes to medical and biological research. [1][2]
Finally, it is not even true that Carnegie doesn't classify as such: In addition, there is a new category Special Focus Research Institution, comprised of the special focus, institutions that meet the criteria for being considered a Research University but confer degrees in a limited range of academic programs.[5] So according to Carnegie, UCSF meets the criteria for being considered a “Research University" .
Eccekevin (
talk)
00:04, 1 April 2023 (UTC)reply