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Ok, the text in the Controversy section has recently changed, specifically the Evangelical Christian Union incident.
I no longer believe that it is factually acurrate or unbiased. Further, I don't see that the current level of detail entered into is particuarly relevant for this article.
Line by line:
"In January 2006 a row errupted as the guild took issue with the Evangelical Christian Union's long established policy..."
The policy was not long established. However long it existed, it was in controvention of the Guild Constitution. As this takes precedence; officially the "policy" never existed. As soon as the Guild Executive learned of the policy, they took steps to reach a solution where the Guild's Constitution and the aim of the policy would not contradict each other - initially working very closely with BUECU officers. When all efforts to find such a solution broke down, BUECU proposed to change the Constitution. This proposal fell.
"...of not allowing non-Christians to become members, and requiring leadership to be chosen through fully democratic elections rather than being proposed by the previous leaders then being voted on by the society alongside any 'independent proposals' for the same positions."
These statements lack clarity and could be misleading. The statement starting "rather than" may make readers assume that what is stated is what BUECU did. The "rather than" statement does seem to contradict what was proposed to Guild Council ( http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers260106/pdfs/04dMotion%20-%20BUECU%20Constitution.pdf, and its appendix http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers260106/pdfs/04eMotion%20-%20BUECU%20Constitution%20Appendix.pdf) and, to a lesser extent, what Matthew Crouch said to Guild Council (Page 10 of the Minutes: http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers230206/pdfs/01%20Guild%20Council%2026%2001%202006.pdf)
"About both of these there was broad consensus among the members of the Evangelical Christian Union that they were undesirable given the religious beliefs of the society."
This statement lacks evidence. Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words It could just as easily be said that there was a broad consensus that the Guild's action was in fact desirable, given a) the religious beliefs of the society, b) that the Guild is a secular educational establishment and c) the Guild is not a Church. (One could argue that this statement is more valid as it is evidenced by Guild Council's rejection of the proposal, but it would remain a one-sided statement.)
"However, the guild held that this was a compulsory requirement for all societies under the constitution of BUGS. As a result of this, BUGS derecognised the Evangelical Christian Union and seized their funds, claiming that they would be repaid upon certain conditions (i.e. that the money go to UCCF for use on Birmingham students, rather than directly to the derecognised society as they ruled that they were a self appointed group of friends and thus shouldn't directly receive the money)."
It is inaccurate and biased to say the Guild seized the ex-society's funds.
Firstly, as BUECU was a Guild Society, the Guild always held the society's funds. Banking is one of the free services the Guild offers student groups, and due to charity law all affiliated societies must bank through the Guild. It could be more accuate to say that the Guild froze those assets.
Secondly, the Guild would have to consider where funds go if ANY society were derecognised. They can't just hand it out to a bunch of people without a good reason.
The use of language throughout doesn't help; we have double negatives ("not allowing non-Christians"), repeatedly changing between "BUGS" and "the guild" while the rest of the article, including its title, almost exclusively and more accurately refers a capitalised "Guild", use of over-sensational terms such as funds being "seized" and "claiming" they'd give it back, and awkward grammar.
Rather than implement these changes I thought it would be best to articulate them and flag up the section to the Wikipedia community. I agree with Cls14 that its mention would add to the article, but I hope I have outlined why I feel what is currently written is not acurrate, neutral, or entirely relevant at this time.
Sooner or later someone will want to remove the 'Controversy' section. Everything in it is true and I've referenced properly so please do not remove it or you are defeating the point of Wikipedia. Thanks. Cls14 23:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I just modified the controversies section dealing with BUECU. Firstly, I tried to make it clear what the position of BUECU is re 'democratic elections'. The thing I edited implied that the former exec forced the CU to take whatever group they demanded - that's inaccurate. What actually happens is the exec, consulting the rest of the CU, propose a set of exec members. Members are given time to object, in which case the exec will consider the objections, or to choose to run as independents against the . Although it is unlikely that any independent would get in, given the religious beliefs of most members of the society concerning leadership and the fact that their status as independent proposals would be stated on the ballot paper, it is not the case that individuals cannot run against the Exec's nominations, and it was not the case when BUECU was derecognised (although it was until the december before they were derecognised).
I also removed "However, six other Christian societies (two of them evangelical) have no problem accepting the rules" (which occured after the correct statement that BUECU found it contrary to their religious beliefs to ), because these societies are not comparable, but the article implies that they are. I'm not sure which the six that are referred to are - four of them (AngSoc, MethSoc, CathSoc, and the Navigators) are actually run by specific staff so the problems with leaders do not arise (and the problem with leadership was ultimately the problem with membership, since membership only actually matters for voting priveliges.) Fusion, which I assume is referred to as one of the other evangelical societies (the other is presumably the Navigators) disagrees with UCCF on many many issues (religious and otherwise), which is a matter of great controversy in evangelical circles, and results (among other things) with the two organisations never working together. It is therefore not fair to lump a UCCF Christian Union's religious beliefs in with those of fusion - although they both retain the name evangelical, they also mean VERY different things by that. I don't have a problem with it being pointed out that other Christian societies don't have a problem with adhering to the guild rules, as long as these things are made clear. (I don't know what the sixth Christian society to which the article referred was supposed to be, since there are a few that pop to mind that might be referred to as such. All those that I can think of, though, are both a) unique, incomparable cases, and b) run by staff rather than student leaders anyway.) TheologyJohn 19:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The six are Ang Soc, Cath Soc, Meth Soc, Adventist Soc, Fusion and Navigators with the last two being evangelical. Don't know anything about Adventist but the first three have chaplains and Navs has staff. Fusion is largely student run though and has none of the rules, and the beliefs of individuals in it are largely similar to those of BUECU, although most of the other views are vastly different, which is the conflict with BUECU being fundamentalist and Fusion being neo-evangelical. I guess it's a complicated issue to whether it's a result of religious beliefs or Christian politics which I don't know the answer. Probably an irrelevent comment though, although the origninal one debatably broke the NPOV rule. James Bowes 23:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Theology John is re-adding deliberate false information and removing the flag for this. I tried to make it more accurate but he changed it as he didn't want the truth about his cult outed. I suppose he does work for them... 147.188.21.112 14:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The Guild of Students publishes a weekly newspaper called Redbrick, which the president holds ultimate control over the contents of as executive editor and can censor it at any time. In 2006 a group of students established an alternative student newspaper and online discussion forum, The Radish.
The second statement requires citation, or probably should be removed. 82.10.216.25 15:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
A user has multiple times edited the name of the president on this site to Richard Morris from Gary Hughes. The BUGS website ( http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/yourguild/exec06.asp) indicates that Gary Hughes is currently the president. I'm not sure why the name of the president is being changed, but I would request some kind of evident that the website is wrong if it is going to be changed from my re-revert to Gary Hughes. TheologyJohn 14:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
University of Birmingham Guild of Students article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
The contents of the Birmingham University Astronomical Society page were merged into University of Birmingham Guild of Students. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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Ok, the text in the Controversy section has recently changed, specifically the Evangelical Christian Union incident.
I no longer believe that it is factually acurrate or unbiased. Further, I don't see that the current level of detail entered into is particuarly relevant for this article.
Line by line:
"In January 2006 a row errupted as the guild took issue with the Evangelical Christian Union's long established policy..."
The policy was not long established. However long it existed, it was in controvention of the Guild Constitution. As this takes precedence; officially the "policy" never existed. As soon as the Guild Executive learned of the policy, they took steps to reach a solution where the Guild's Constitution and the aim of the policy would not contradict each other - initially working very closely with BUECU officers. When all efforts to find such a solution broke down, BUECU proposed to change the Constitution. This proposal fell.
"...of not allowing non-Christians to become members, and requiring leadership to be chosen through fully democratic elections rather than being proposed by the previous leaders then being voted on by the society alongside any 'independent proposals' for the same positions."
These statements lack clarity and could be misleading. The statement starting "rather than" may make readers assume that what is stated is what BUECU did. The "rather than" statement does seem to contradict what was proposed to Guild Council ( http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers260106/pdfs/04dMotion%20-%20BUECU%20Constitution.pdf, and its appendix http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers260106/pdfs/04eMotion%20-%20BUECU%20Constitution%20Appendix.pdf) and, to a lesser extent, what Matthew Crouch said to Guild Council (Page 10 of the Minutes: http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/getinvolved/guild_council/Papers/Papers230206/pdfs/01%20Guild%20Council%2026%2001%202006.pdf)
"About both of these there was broad consensus among the members of the Evangelical Christian Union that they were undesirable given the religious beliefs of the society."
This statement lacks evidence. Wikipedia:Avoid weasel words It could just as easily be said that there was a broad consensus that the Guild's action was in fact desirable, given a) the religious beliefs of the society, b) that the Guild is a secular educational establishment and c) the Guild is not a Church. (One could argue that this statement is more valid as it is evidenced by Guild Council's rejection of the proposal, but it would remain a one-sided statement.)
"However, the guild held that this was a compulsory requirement for all societies under the constitution of BUGS. As a result of this, BUGS derecognised the Evangelical Christian Union and seized their funds, claiming that they would be repaid upon certain conditions (i.e. that the money go to UCCF for use on Birmingham students, rather than directly to the derecognised society as they ruled that they were a self appointed group of friends and thus shouldn't directly receive the money)."
It is inaccurate and biased to say the Guild seized the ex-society's funds.
Firstly, as BUECU was a Guild Society, the Guild always held the society's funds. Banking is one of the free services the Guild offers student groups, and due to charity law all affiliated societies must bank through the Guild. It could be more accuate to say that the Guild froze those assets.
Secondly, the Guild would have to consider where funds go if ANY society were derecognised. They can't just hand it out to a bunch of people without a good reason.
The use of language throughout doesn't help; we have double negatives ("not allowing non-Christians"), repeatedly changing between "BUGS" and "the guild" while the rest of the article, including its title, almost exclusively and more accurately refers a capitalised "Guild", use of over-sensational terms such as funds being "seized" and "claiming" they'd give it back, and awkward grammar.
Rather than implement these changes I thought it would be best to articulate them and flag up the section to the Wikipedia community. I agree with Cls14 that its mention would add to the article, but I hope I have outlined why I feel what is currently written is not acurrate, neutral, or entirely relevant at this time.
Sooner or later someone will want to remove the 'Controversy' section. Everything in it is true and I've referenced properly so please do not remove it or you are defeating the point of Wikipedia. Thanks. Cls14 23:36, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
I just modified the controversies section dealing with BUECU. Firstly, I tried to make it clear what the position of BUECU is re 'democratic elections'. The thing I edited implied that the former exec forced the CU to take whatever group they demanded - that's inaccurate. What actually happens is the exec, consulting the rest of the CU, propose a set of exec members. Members are given time to object, in which case the exec will consider the objections, or to choose to run as independents against the . Although it is unlikely that any independent would get in, given the religious beliefs of most members of the society concerning leadership and the fact that their status as independent proposals would be stated on the ballot paper, it is not the case that individuals cannot run against the Exec's nominations, and it was not the case when BUECU was derecognised (although it was until the december before they were derecognised).
I also removed "However, six other Christian societies (two of them evangelical) have no problem accepting the rules" (which occured after the correct statement that BUECU found it contrary to their religious beliefs to ), because these societies are not comparable, but the article implies that they are. I'm not sure which the six that are referred to are - four of them (AngSoc, MethSoc, CathSoc, and the Navigators) are actually run by specific staff so the problems with leaders do not arise (and the problem with leadership was ultimately the problem with membership, since membership only actually matters for voting priveliges.) Fusion, which I assume is referred to as one of the other evangelical societies (the other is presumably the Navigators) disagrees with UCCF on many many issues (religious and otherwise), which is a matter of great controversy in evangelical circles, and results (among other things) with the two organisations never working together. It is therefore not fair to lump a UCCF Christian Union's religious beliefs in with those of fusion - although they both retain the name evangelical, they also mean VERY different things by that. I don't have a problem with it being pointed out that other Christian societies don't have a problem with adhering to the guild rules, as long as these things are made clear. (I don't know what the sixth Christian society to which the article referred was supposed to be, since there are a few that pop to mind that might be referred to as such. All those that I can think of, though, are both a) unique, incomparable cases, and b) run by staff rather than student leaders anyway.) TheologyJohn 19:56, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
The six are Ang Soc, Cath Soc, Meth Soc, Adventist Soc, Fusion and Navigators with the last two being evangelical. Don't know anything about Adventist but the first three have chaplains and Navs has staff. Fusion is largely student run though and has none of the rules, and the beliefs of individuals in it are largely similar to those of BUECU, although most of the other views are vastly different, which is the conflict with BUECU being fundamentalist and Fusion being neo-evangelical. I guess it's a complicated issue to whether it's a result of religious beliefs or Christian politics which I don't know the answer. Probably an irrelevent comment though, although the origninal one debatably broke the NPOV rule. James Bowes 23:04, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
Theology John is re-adding deliberate false information and removing the flag for this. I tried to make it more accurate but he changed it as he didn't want the truth about his cult outed. I suppose he does work for them... 147.188.21.112 14:09, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
The Guild of Students publishes a weekly newspaper called Redbrick, which the president holds ultimate control over the contents of as executive editor and can censor it at any time. In 2006 a group of students established an alternative student newspaper and online discussion forum, The Radish.
The second statement requires citation, or probably should be removed. 82.10.216.25 15:05, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
A user has multiple times edited the name of the president on this site to Richard Morris from Gary Hughes. The BUGS website ( http://www.bugs.bham.ac.uk/yourguild/exec06.asp) indicates that Gary Hughes is currently the president. I'm not sure why the name of the president is being changed, but I would request some kind of evident that the website is wrong if it is going to be changed from my re-revert to Gary Hughes. TheologyJohn 14:15, 20 December 2006 (UTC)