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The Introduction suggests that the United States used chemical weapons in Vietnam. However this is not supported by the article or the sources listed. Can this be verified? Should this line be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.251.254 ( talk) 17:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Added info about use of chemical weapons in Vietnam from existing pages. Apoorv020 ( talk) 11:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
. . . is weasel wording, especially when many people say otherwise; even the 1946 Strategic Bombing Survey (hardly the work of "limp dicked western historians", neh?) says "The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender." ( p. 46) though it does say that "they did foreshorten the war and expedite the peace."( p. 47)—which is an ambiguous conclusion, and arguments continue over just how necessary the bombings were; look through a decent bibliography or two. What's necessary, rather than a lot of argument and insults, is either a full description of the controversy in this article or else a wikilink to that description; the Hiroshima article has fairly extensive discussion, and there's enough information available, I think, for a separate Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings article, if anyone cares to write it. — No-One Jones 18:47, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I did not even know about the other article. This one is redundant and needs to be deleted then. as far as your argument goes (if that is what you call that trite piece of commie propaganda), the most complete investigation and study of the Japanese perspective on the surrender: Japan's Longest Day: The Pacific War Research Society ISBN: 4770028873, categorically refutes the claims that they were on the brink of surrender. TDC 18:57, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Please read the Chemical Weapons Convention before chaniging the deadline -the deadline is 2007 (i.e. ten years after entry into force (1997) for total destruction). Also if you want to start adding weasel words you had better start adding reputable sources which claim that the U.S. stockpiles and programs are not as the U.S. claims them to be. There may be such sources. I haven't seen anything at OPCW or IAEA, maybe a group like Greenpeace? Rmhermen 15:14, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Including something to vote for deletion without even bringing it up at talk is a gross breaking of wiki etiquette. Get-back-world-respect 15:48, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Rmhermen, although I see your point about "anti-US bias" in the way I wrote things like "officially admits possessing," I think your corrections swing too far in the other direction. And I don't mean that as an insult, just a question asking how we can find some middle ground.
The fact of the matter is that countries and governments lie, not just the U.S., but all of them. If we take your stance ("weapons programs cancelled", "possesses") then it would only be fair to apply the same standard to Iraq and weapons of mass destruction -- if the Iraqi government said they didn't have them, they didn't have them, right? Well, no. Iraq was under added scrutiny because the U.S. (its enemy) held most of the geopolitical cards, but who knows what would be found if similar random inspections were held in a random Western country of your choosing? The Anthrax spores that were sent to Congress were traced to a U.S. facility, didn't the news say? And isn't having samples "for research" all that's necessary to develop bio weapons if needed? You know what would have happened if "samples" had been found in Iraq.
So I'm looking for some common ground -- some words that will make us both happy. What would make me happy are words that could be applied equally to allies and enemies, so there isn't blind acceptance of "our side" and blind condemnation of "their side." Rjyanco 17:33, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)What is UTC?
The program written about in the Times was a DOD project to determine the difficulty of building a biological weapons facility using off the shelf components that could be purchased through catalogues, in stores, and online with a limited budget and only a few technicians and not raise any suspicions. It was a feasibility study to determine if properly trained terrorist organization could do this. This was not an attempt by the DOD to re constitute a BW program. Anything to the contrary is ridiculous. TDC 16:01, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
If you have any information that can verify that the DOD did not dismantle its BW program in 1973, then by all means provide it. If not, then the article will reflect the facts, (the US dismantled its BW program in 73), unless evidence to the contrary can be provided.
Remember, Iraq not only has WMD's, but "We know where they are." We didn't trade arms for hostages, and "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Rjyanco 16:19, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Each of the following statements is easy to verify the factual accuracy of.
The U.S cancelled its biological weapons program by executive order (November 1969 and February 1970) destroyed all biological weapons by February 1973.
The presidential order for this decision can be seen. Unless you have any evidence what so ever that the US did not end its offensive BW program, provide it or the statement will be modified. TDC 16:55, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
FOIA Freedom of Information Act. TDC 00:08, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Once again, there is no evidence to dispute the claims. Research for defensive purposes, like vaccines or production feasibility studies is not banned by the treaty. The Times article does not indicate that the activities were illegal under the treaty. Put up or shut up. TDC 17:14, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
Please read the entire article as well as Judy Miller's book on the subject. Miller does not assert or imply that the US has an offesive BW program in violation of the treaty. TDC 20:38, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
and 2) The US denial seems to imply that there was indeed research going on, contradicting your statement that the biological weapons program was cancelled, even if only a defensive program remains. Get-back-world-respect 20:10, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Once again, all BW related programs in the US are defensive in nature, and unless you can show otherwise, it stays as is. TDC 20:38, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
I might also point out that no (that’s zero, nada, zip, zilch, nothing) weaponized biological agents were ever actually produced at the facility. The Pentagon actually invited Judy Miller into the facility and gave her a grand tour and allowed her to interview every scientist and technician working there. TDC 17:25, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
LOL, chuckle, grin -- how many was that again? ;-) Could you be more specific? Er, let me see if I got this now: are you saying that they didn't make any bio agents there? -- Uncle Ed 17:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, they claim that they made no weapons, but I am sure that someone (GBWR) is in contact with some wise and all knowing sources which can dispute this claim with documented proof that the Bush Cheny Junta used weaponized agents to kill the children and pets of liberal dissidents. TDC 17:58, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
It is necessary to refer to sources in controversial questions when writing an encyclopedia. In this case, the source is the US government. Therefore, we must state that the source for this information is the US government. Fredrik 20:40, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, since english is not yor first language, then we should defer this matter to those people whose first language is english. TDC 00:08, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Let me put it to you like this: My wife had a child. There are two ways to state this:
1. According to my wife, she gave birth to our first child on August 22 2001.
or
2. My wife gave birth to our first child on August 22 2001.
Now, statement one implies that someone is in doubt as to my wifes claim that she gave birth on August 22 2001. Statement 2 implies that no one is in doubt that she gave birth on August 22 2001. TDC 00:21, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Now, with no evidence to the contrary that the US has an active offensive BW program, the current phrasing is inacurate. Unless you can show otherwise, it should be removed. BTW, as I have explained, the NYT article does not allege that the US has an active offensive BW program.
According to the United States government, the U.S. cancelled its offensive biological weapons program by executive order (November 1969 and February 1970) and destroyed all biological weapons by February 1973.
This statement implies that we have to take the US's word that that in November 1969 and February 1970 there was an executive order to end the offesnive BW program. These executive orders are easy enough to research and we can verify that in fact they were issued.
As to the second portion of the claim, that in fact all offesnive BW's were destroyed, there is no evidence contrary to this and a FOIA request could easily verify this.
But once again, no one that I know is disputing either of these two claims. TDC 00:21, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Dear TDC. You have a bit funny logic here. First you write in article that USA has abandoned its BW-program and take this statement as it is indisputed fact (The United States does not possess biological weapons), but as soon as someone cites the source that in this case it is US authorities (According to the United States, it does not possess biological weapons), it suddenly becames claim that is disputed by some. If you have such a strong trust for US goverments word, so that their statement can generally be taken as a fact, why it is not acceptable to mention source in the text then? Kulkuri (Forgot to sign)
What source are you refering to? TDC 15:34, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)
He's referring to the U.S. government as a source. To paraphrase him: If you think that statements from the U.S. government are generally facts, why do you find it unacceptable to cite the U.S. government as a source for those facts? (Of course we both know the answer -- you think the need to cite a source for something means that that something isn't indisputable fact. And you're 100% right. And that's why we need to cite a source here.) Rjyanco 20:14, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We could take the phrase the U.S. cancelled its offensive biological weapons program and source it from many places (like the UN or the FAS), all of which have seen the executive orders to cancel the BW program. So there are multiple sources for the first statement. We could link the executive order showing this, or link a site.
Point being that there is more than one source that several executive orders were given to cancel the offensive BW program, not just the US government. If we site one, then we site them all, and that would make the opening sentence about 900 words long. But if that is what you want....... TDC 17:20, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Those are all NPOV facts that don't seem to be in dispute. What are we missing? Mark Richards 16:26, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The original line I agreed to was this.
Now, once again, the first line is from several dozen sources, so if we list one, (i.e. According to the U.S. government) then I say we list them all. The second point of contention and appears to have destroyed all biological weapons by February 1973 can be verified via a FOIA request. I would not object to leaving that in. TDC 17:20, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
TDC, I just wanted to say that the document you found and provided ( http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB58/RNCBW9.pdf) is really great -- if you find anything else like that, it definitely belongs in this article. Rjyanco 18:09, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ahh yes, praises and salutations to TDC, aka el magnifico :) TDC 18:15, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Oh like what, UN weapons inspectors. After all Hans Blix did such a good job of uncovering Iraq's clandestine nuclear program in the 1980's didn't he? And how truly moronic of you is it to compare the level of governmental transparency and accountability in the United States and Iraq in manner in which you did? TDC 18:40, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
If another revert is made again, then I will have no other choice than to compile a list of more corroborating sources and include them in the statement. TDC 18:59, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Mark, the reversion that you made is exactly what was agreed to earlier, and I have absolutely no problems with it. TDC 19:43, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 22 to Apr 28 2004, consensus was unanimously to keep.
Begin archived discussion:
This page seems redundant as all information here is in various other articles. This should be either deleted and/or all relevant materials be merged in their appropriate places. TDC 15:33, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
End archived discussion
An anonymous contributor added this paragraph to the article:
The link leads to an odd editorial about children's music. Rmhermen 23:37, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)
When searching google for "Iraq AND clostridium" I foud those links: Between 1985-89, ATCC made 17 shipments of "attenuated strains of various toxins and bacteria" to Iraq’s Atomic Energy Commission. ("Center for Nonproliferation Studies") and In the 1980s, Iraq procured additional anthrax strains from three major sources: the United States (American Type Tissue Collection), the Pasteur Institute (France; two strains), and strains JB17 and Sterne 3452 from the Central Veterinary Laboratory, New Haw, Surry, UK. (Nuclear Threat Initiative) Get-back-world-respect 00:57, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Is depleted Uranium considered a WMD? If so, the USA certainly possesses the stuff, and have used it in three wars. If not, ignore me. Chewyman
Destruction of chemical weapons was supposed to start in "summer 2004" at Pine Bluff and Newport. Can anyone tell if it actually did start? Rmhermen 14:22, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
I found this to be in the opening paragraph, may someone please explain what the ramifications are... thank you (why should 'I' the reader care?). ~ RoboAction 19:43, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Form the article: "15 Ohio-class submarines deployed...eight with Trident I missiles, and ten with Trident II missiles." 8+10=18 not 15. Which is correct? Rmhermen 14:42, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
"only known country": in the early 90s, french troops were contaminated during the first gulf war and got indemnification for that. also there is a persistant rumor about the top secret B2-Namous base located in the Sahara desert, French Algeria ( map, Colomb Béchar) where chemical weapons (inc. gaz) were experimented in the 1960s. Cliché Online 23:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Aren't defoliants such as agent orange chemical weapons? Mike.lifeguard 05:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
To start only after the US entered the treaty is pretty non-neutral. How about the 20-30 years previous where they were doing research into offensive biological weapons? - Francis Tyers · 07:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
"Iran has advanced biology and genetic engineering research programmes supporting an industry that produces world-class vaccines for both domestic use and export.[5] The dual-use nature of these facilities mean that Iran, like any country with advanced biological research programmes, could easily produce biological warfare agents."
"Iran is known to possess cultures of the many biological agents for legitimate scientific purposes which have been weaponised by other nations in the past, or could theoretically be weaponised, though they do not allege that Iran has attempted to weaponise them, Iran possesses sufficient biological facilities to potentially do so.[7]"
The above is used in article Iran_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction. Could same wording be added to section on biological weapons here? 172.159.69.47 14:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
YOu guys are smarter than me, and I presume you have been going over this with a fine-toothed comb. But, I have a problem with the first sentence. The US has no usable chemical weapons. (Well, OK CS we got.) We have nasty old weapons that have no military use and are being destroyed. Same with biological weapons, but more so. The has some batches of nasty germs. We have no way to deliver them. So, no weapons.
I will take no action, as this is not my area of expertise, but still, that first line is just misleading and wrong. Paul, in Saudi 15:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"The U.S. arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is the second largest in the world; depending on the definition."
Depending on the definition, the U.S. arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is either the second largest in the world, or the second largest in the world? SalineBrain ( talk) 16:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it has been wrote that there are 94 B-1s, when it is 64. So, either we include in Russia's article the aircraft that are in reserve (those 90 Tu-22M3 to those 160 allready listed and some Tu-95), or we don't add inactive reserve aircraft to US strategic bombers article. It is one or the other, because if we include reserve aircraft in to US fleet, it makes it look like US has larger strategic bomber fleet, while in fact it is quite the opposite, Russia has largest. 99.231.63.253 ( talk) 16:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.
I removed the following section from the article itself as it does not meet Wikipedia's Manual of Style and Neutral Point of View policies.
The information is not factual, is not referenced, is original research, and has no place in an encyclopedic discussion of WMD. If you would like to include such information, then you need to clean it up according to accepted standards. If you insist on a third revert, you could be locked out of editing for this article. Don'tKnowItAtAll ( talk) 18:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
What is the reason for having the following in the lead:
1. The United States' attitude towards these weapons has been claimed to be primarily defensive, and the actual use of such weapons seen as inhumane unless first provoked. As President Roosevelt stated during World War II:
2. “ Use of such (biological and chemical weapons) has been outlawed by the general opinion of mankind. This country has not used them and I hope we never will be compelled to use them. I state categorically that we shall under no circumstances resort to the use of such weapons unless they are first used by our enemies. ”
3. Since Roosevelt's statement, the U.S. has destroyed its biological weapons and begun destroying its chemical weapons. The U.S. is a participant in the Biological Weapons Convention and the Chemical Weapons Convention which ban the production, possession or use of those classes of weapons. The U.S. retains a large arsenal of nuclear weapons as a defensive deterrent, limited by several international and bilateral treaties.
to 1: "attitude towards these weapons has been claimed to be primarily defensive" - Sure they are only for defense. But I'm also sure that each and every country possessing WMD would say the same. So what is the point of having this sentence here?
to 2: "I state categorically that we shall under no circumstances resort to the use of such weapons unless they are first used by our enemies." - still, the next president used them first anyway. So what is the point of having this old sentence from Roosevelt here? Is the statement somehow especially important to the US doctrine or what?
to 3: "Since Roosevelt's statement, the U.S. has destroyed its biological weapons and begun destroying its chemical weapons." - great news, but still, "has begun to destroy" is different from "has destroyed." Russia is doing the same - started to destroy them - but still this is not mentioned in the lead of Russia's corresponding article
"The U.S. retains a large arsenal of nuclear weapons as a defensive deterrent, limited by several international and bilateral treaties" - "they are only for defense!" gets repeated here again. But I think we already understood it the first time. Besides, "it's a defensive deterrent" is not really a fact, but a claim, so why is this unsourced statement presented here as a fact?
This whole lead doesn't sound very NPOV to me. I'd like to especially point out, that the leads of the corresponding articles for other countries, France, Russia and India for example, only mention what they have and do not provide explanations/justifications "they're only for defense!", "we are already destroying our chemical weapons!", etc. at all. Why does the US article receive a different treatment? Offliner ( talk) 19:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
5800 nuclear warhead USA vs 3081 Russia
chemical weapon to Russia is liquidated to 2012 and is already liquidated 80 %
bacteriological weapon is forbidden beside all
US mass destruction weapon arsenal the largest in world Gnomsovet ( talk) 00:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war#Proposed_use_of_nuclear_weapons
And at the beginning of the Persian Gulf war, Bush Sr. threatened Saddam that if he used his Chemical weapons on US troops that he would retaliate with nuclear strikes against Iraq.
It just seems to me that an article on the USA and WMDs should included incidences of Near-Use and Threatened-Use of them.
BillyTFried ( talk) 00:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, the threatened attacks by North Korea should be mentioned in this article. Kevinmon ( talk) 20:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
That section is so large that it should probably be spun off into its own article. The following material was added by another editor to another article, where it was too general to be germane. It may be of use for expanding the aforementioned history though.
BEGIN PASTE
In order to understand the rationale for chemical and biological research from World War II until 1975, it is necessary to examine the history of the use of chemical and biological agents in warfare and to understand the perceived threat to the Free World during the Cold War. [1]
In 1915, during World War I, the Germans released chlorine gas at Ypres. Gas warfare quickly proliferated on the battlefield. Both sides introduced phosgene (choking gas) and a vomiting gas in late 1915, followed by blood agents in 1916 and mustard agent (a blistering agent) in 1917. By the end of the war, chemical agents caused more than one million casualties and 90,000 deaths. Neither side used biological agents during the war although they did investigate plant and animal diseases. [1] At the outset of World War II, the United States moved to protect its food supply from biological pathogens by setting up an extensive surveillance program. The Army established Fort Detrick, Maryland in 1942 as their primary research and development center for biological agents. Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland was the Army’s principal research and development center for chemical agents. Dugway Proving Ground, Utah was the main testing area for both chemical and biological weapons. [1] At the conclusion of World War II, the United States was surprised to discover that the Germans had developed a new class of chemical agents – nerve agents. The Soviets captured a German tabun (nerve agent GA) production plant, moved it to Russia and made GA their standard nerve gas. The United States adopted sarin (nerve agent GB), also discovered by the Germans, as their standard nerve agent. By the early 1950s, the United States believed it lagged behind the Soviet Union in the development of chemical agents. It was in this context that the United States accelerated its chemical warfare research and development efforts. As part of this accelerated program, experimenters used Service members as human volunteers to determine the effects of chemical agents, as well as to develop therapeutics and prophylactics. [1]
After World War II, the United States sent teams to Germany and Japan to determine the status of their biological warfare programs. While Germany’s program was not very advanced, Japan had an extensive program. During the war, Japan’s principal biological research element, UNIT 731, released biological agents in China and performed experiments on prisoners of war. After the war, pressures of the Cold War and fear of the Russian program led the United States to expand its biological warfare program. This program examined the effective prevention and treatment of biological warfare casualties, determination of minimal effective doses of pathogens, and the effectiveness of vaccines and drugs. Fort Detrick established Project Whitecoat, a human volunteer program to support its efforts. [1] While the Medical Research Volunteer Program conducted at Edgewood Arsenal collected information on the effects of psychochemicals (hallucinogenic drugs) on individuals, there was no information on how these drugs would affect groups of people. Specifically, would they produce disorganizing and disruptive effects on military units? In order to gather the required information, personnel from Edgewood Arsenal conducted field testing of LSD at Fort Bragg (1958) and Fort Benning (1960). [1] See also: Project Delirium, Project DORK, MKDELTA
Precise information on the number of tests, experiments, and participants is not available and the exact number of veterans exposed will probably never be known. [1] DoD’s current effort to identify Cold War exposures began in 2004 and is endeavoring to identify all non-Project 112/SHAD veterans exposed to chemical and biological substances due to testing and accidents from World War II through 1975. [1] As information on specific tests and testing programs is identified by the Office of the Special Assistant, Chemical and Biological Defense and Chemical Demilitarization Programs, along with the names of military participants, the information is provided to Force Health Protection & Readiness (FHP&R) to validate. It is then provided to the Department of Veterans Affairs, who notifies the veteran of his exposure. As of June 30, 2008, FHP&R had identified approximately 10,500 veterans involved in Cold War testing or other events that may have resulted in an exposure. [1] Testing did not necessarily involve exposure to a harmful substance. Many veterans participated in performance or equipment tests that did not involve biological or chemical substances. Others received medicines (e.g., Benadryl). For completeness and to be able to respond to veteran’s questions, FHP&R decided to include all veterans associated with testing in their database whether these veterans were exposed to chemical or biological warfare agents or not. Completion of the investigation is schedule for 2011. DoD will then continue to pursue any leads or information that is provided from any source. [1]
END PASTE. 86.121.18.17 ( talk) 00:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
References
A recent edit summary said this article is part of a series all of which, by design, discuss all three WMDs. This of course is entirely untrue: it is actually part of a series of articles which jam nuclear, biological and chemical weapons into one article without any attempt to link them or justify placing them in one article. For WMD-type articles to serve an encyclopedic purpose, they would need to attempt to relate C/B/N weapons to each other for the relevant country, eg in terms of strategic decision-making or deployment. Without that, it's a purposeless collection of superficially related information. Podiaebba ( talk) 19:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
In an article primarily about nuclear weapons employing such colorful concepts as nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, and the like, the term "gravity bomb" sounds like some kind of science fiction contraption - I initially clicked the link thinking "what could this be?", only to be reminded that "gravity bomb" is another name for "unguided bomb". In my experience, "unguided bomb" is the far more common usage (your mileage may vary). So, I boldly adjusted the wording here. If that is disagreeable, feel free to revert my edit and leave a message explaining why (so I can make more agreeable edits in the future). 199.33.96.209 ( talk) 11:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
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Why is there no mention of Agent Orange used in the Vietnam war? Agent Orange - Use in the Vietnam War or the White Phosphorus attacks in Iraq? or when the US authorities continually use tear gas on its own citizens. Eck ( talk) 17:23, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
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The Introduction suggests that the United States used chemical weapons in Vietnam. However this is not supported by the article or the sources listed. Can this be verified? Should this line be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.251.254 ( talk) 17:34, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Added info about use of chemical weapons in Vietnam from existing pages. Apoorv020 ( talk) 11:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
. . . is weasel wording, especially when many people say otherwise; even the 1946 Strategic Bombing Survey (hardly the work of "limp dicked western historians", neh?) says "The Hiroshima and Nagasaki atomic bombs did not defeat Japan, nor by the testimony of the enemy leaders who ended the war did they persuade Japan to accept unconditional surrender." ( p. 46) though it does say that "they did foreshorten the war and expedite the peace."( p. 47)—which is an ambiguous conclusion, and arguments continue over just how necessary the bombings were; look through a decent bibliography or two. What's necessary, rather than a lot of argument and insults, is either a full description of the controversy in this article or else a wikilink to that description; the Hiroshima article has fairly extensive discussion, and there's enough information available, I think, for a separate Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombings article, if anyone cares to write it. — No-One Jones 18:47, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I did not even know about the other article. This one is redundant and needs to be deleted then. as far as your argument goes (if that is what you call that trite piece of commie propaganda), the most complete investigation and study of the Japanese perspective on the surrender: Japan's Longest Day: The Pacific War Research Society ISBN: 4770028873, categorically refutes the claims that they were on the brink of surrender. TDC 18:57, 16 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Please read the Chemical Weapons Convention before chaniging the deadline -the deadline is 2007 (i.e. ten years after entry into force (1997) for total destruction). Also if you want to start adding weasel words you had better start adding reputable sources which claim that the U.S. stockpiles and programs are not as the U.S. claims them to be. There may be such sources. I haven't seen anything at OPCW or IAEA, maybe a group like Greenpeace? Rmhermen 15:14, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Including something to vote for deletion without even bringing it up at talk is a gross breaking of wiki etiquette. Get-back-world-respect 15:48, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Rmhermen, although I see your point about "anti-US bias" in the way I wrote things like "officially admits possessing," I think your corrections swing too far in the other direction. And I don't mean that as an insult, just a question asking how we can find some middle ground.
The fact of the matter is that countries and governments lie, not just the U.S., but all of them. If we take your stance ("weapons programs cancelled", "possesses") then it would only be fair to apply the same standard to Iraq and weapons of mass destruction -- if the Iraqi government said they didn't have them, they didn't have them, right? Well, no. Iraq was under added scrutiny because the U.S. (its enemy) held most of the geopolitical cards, but who knows what would be found if similar random inspections were held in a random Western country of your choosing? The Anthrax spores that were sent to Congress were traced to a U.S. facility, didn't the news say? And isn't having samples "for research" all that's necessary to develop bio weapons if needed? You know what would have happened if "samples" had been found in Iraq.
So I'm looking for some common ground -- some words that will make us both happy. What would make me happy are words that could be applied equally to allies and enemies, so there isn't blind acceptance of "our side" and blind condemnation of "their side." Rjyanco 17:33, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)What is UTC?
The program written about in the Times was a DOD project to determine the difficulty of building a biological weapons facility using off the shelf components that could be purchased through catalogues, in stores, and online with a limited budget and only a few technicians and not raise any suspicions. It was a feasibility study to determine if properly trained terrorist organization could do this. This was not an attempt by the DOD to re constitute a BW program. Anything to the contrary is ridiculous. TDC 16:01, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
If you have any information that can verify that the DOD did not dismantle its BW program in 1973, then by all means provide it. If not, then the article will reflect the facts, (the US dismantled its BW program in 73), unless evidence to the contrary can be provided.
Remember, Iraq not only has WMD's, but "We know where they are." We didn't trade arms for hostages, and "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." Rjyanco 16:19, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Each of the following statements is easy to verify the factual accuracy of.
The U.S cancelled its biological weapons program by executive order (November 1969 and February 1970) destroyed all biological weapons by February 1973.
The presidential order for this decision can be seen. Unless you have any evidence what so ever that the US did not end its offensive BW program, provide it or the statement will be modified. TDC 16:55, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
FOIA Freedom of Information Act. TDC 00:08, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Once again, there is no evidence to dispute the claims. Research for defensive purposes, like vaccines or production feasibility studies is not banned by the treaty. The Times article does not indicate that the activities were illegal under the treaty. Put up or shut up. TDC 17:14, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
Please read the entire article as well as Judy Miller's book on the subject. Miller does not assert or imply that the US has an offesive BW program in violation of the treaty. TDC 20:38, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
and 2) The US denial seems to imply that there was indeed research going on, contradicting your statement that the biological weapons program was cancelled, even if only a defensive program remains. Get-back-world-respect 20:10, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Once again, all BW related programs in the US are defensive in nature, and unless you can show otherwise, it stays as is. TDC 20:38, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
I might also point out that no (that’s zero, nada, zip, zilch, nothing) weaponized biological agents were ever actually produced at the facility. The Pentagon actually invited Judy Miller into the facility and gave her a grand tour and allowed her to interview every scientist and technician working there. TDC 17:25, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
LOL, chuckle, grin -- how many was that again? ;-) Could you be more specific? Er, let me see if I got this now: are you saying that they didn't make any bio agents there? -- Uncle Ed 17:47, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, they claim that they made no weapons, but I am sure that someone (GBWR) is in contact with some wise and all knowing sources which can dispute this claim with documented proof that the Bush Cheny Junta used weaponized agents to kill the children and pets of liberal dissidents. TDC 17:58, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
It is necessary to refer to sources in controversial questions when writing an encyclopedia. In this case, the source is the US government. Therefore, we must state that the source for this information is the US government. Fredrik 20:40, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, since english is not yor first language, then we should defer this matter to those people whose first language is english. TDC 00:08, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Let me put it to you like this: My wife had a child. There are two ways to state this:
1. According to my wife, she gave birth to our first child on August 22 2001.
or
2. My wife gave birth to our first child on August 22 2001.
Now, statement one implies that someone is in doubt as to my wifes claim that she gave birth on August 22 2001. Statement 2 implies that no one is in doubt that she gave birth on August 22 2001. TDC 00:21, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Now, with no evidence to the contrary that the US has an active offensive BW program, the current phrasing is inacurate. Unless you can show otherwise, it should be removed. BTW, as I have explained, the NYT article does not allege that the US has an active offensive BW program.
According to the United States government, the U.S. cancelled its offensive biological weapons program by executive order (November 1969 and February 1970) and destroyed all biological weapons by February 1973.
This statement implies that we have to take the US's word that that in November 1969 and February 1970 there was an executive order to end the offesnive BW program. These executive orders are easy enough to research and we can verify that in fact they were issued.
As to the second portion of the claim, that in fact all offesnive BW's were destroyed, there is no evidence contrary to this and a FOIA request could easily verify this.
But once again, no one that I know is disputing either of these two claims. TDC 00:21, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Dear TDC. You have a bit funny logic here. First you write in article that USA has abandoned its BW-program and take this statement as it is indisputed fact (The United States does not possess biological weapons), but as soon as someone cites the source that in this case it is US authorities (According to the United States, it does not possess biological weapons), it suddenly becames claim that is disputed by some. If you have such a strong trust for US goverments word, so that their statement can generally be taken as a fact, why it is not acceptable to mention source in the text then? Kulkuri (Forgot to sign)
What source are you refering to? TDC 15:34, Apr 25, 2004 (UTC)
He's referring to the U.S. government as a source. To paraphrase him: If you think that statements from the U.S. government are generally facts, why do you find it unacceptable to cite the U.S. government as a source for those facts? (Of course we both know the answer -- you think the need to cite a source for something means that that something isn't indisputable fact. And you're 100% right. And that's why we need to cite a source here.) Rjyanco 20:14, 25 Apr 2004 (UTC)
We could take the phrase the U.S. cancelled its offensive biological weapons program and source it from many places (like the UN or the FAS), all of which have seen the executive orders to cancel the BW program. So there are multiple sources for the first statement. We could link the executive order showing this, or link a site.
Point being that there is more than one source that several executive orders were given to cancel the offensive BW program, not just the US government. If we site one, then we site them all, and that would make the opening sentence about 900 words long. But if that is what you want....... TDC 17:20, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Those are all NPOV facts that don't seem to be in dispute. What are we missing? Mark Richards 16:26, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
The original line I agreed to was this.
Now, once again, the first line is from several dozen sources, so if we list one, (i.e. According to the U.S. government) then I say we list them all. The second point of contention and appears to have destroyed all biological weapons by February 1973 can be verified via a FOIA request. I would not object to leaving that in. TDC 17:20, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
TDC, I just wanted to say that the document you found and provided ( http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB58/RNCBW9.pdf) is really great -- if you find anything else like that, it definitely belongs in this article. Rjyanco 18:09, 27 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ahh yes, praises and salutations to TDC, aka el magnifico :) TDC 18:15, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Oh like what, UN weapons inspectors. After all Hans Blix did such a good job of uncovering Iraq's clandestine nuclear program in the 1980's didn't he? And how truly moronic of you is it to compare the level of governmental transparency and accountability in the United States and Iraq in manner in which you did? TDC 18:40, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
If another revert is made again, then I will have no other choice than to compile a list of more corroborating sources and include them in the statement. TDC 18:59, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Mark, the reversion that you made is exactly what was agreed to earlier, and I have absolutely no problems with it. TDC 19:43, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)
Article listed on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion Apr 22 to Apr 28 2004, consensus was unanimously to keep.
Begin archived discussion:
This page seems redundant as all information here is in various other articles. This should be either deleted and/or all relevant materials be merged in their appropriate places. TDC 15:33, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
End archived discussion
An anonymous contributor added this paragraph to the article:
The link leads to an odd editorial about children's music. Rmhermen 23:37, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)
When searching google for "Iraq AND clostridium" I foud those links: Between 1985-89, ATCC made 17 shipments of "attenuated strains of various toxins and bacteria" to Iraq’s Atomic Energy Commission. ("Center for Nonproliferation Studies") and In the 1980s, Iraq procured additional anthrax strains from three major sources: the United States (American Type Tissue Collection), the Pasteur Institute (France; two strains), and strains JB17 and Sterne 3452 from the Central Veterinary Laboratory, New Haw, Surry, UK. (Nuclear Threat Initiative) Get-back-world-respect 00:57, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Is depleted Uranium considered a WMD? If so, the USA certainly possesses the stuff, and have used it in three wars. If not, ignore me. Chewyman
Destruction of chemical weapons was supposed to start in "summer 2004" at Pine Bluff and Newport. Can anyone tell if it actually did start? Rmhermen 14:22, Oct 4, 2004 (UTC)
I found this to be in the opening paragraph, may someone please explain what the ramifications are... thank you (why should 'I' the reader care?). ~ RoboAction 19:43, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Form the article: "15 Ohio-class submarines deployed...eight with Trident I missiles, and ten with Trident II missiles." 8+10=18 not 15. Which is correct? Rmhermen 14:42, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)
"only known country": in the early 90s, french troops were contaminated during the first gulf war and got indemnification for that. also there is a persistant rumor about the top secret B2-Namous base located in the Sahara desert, French Algeria ( map, Colomb Béchar) where chemical weapons (inc. gaz) were experimented in the 1960s. Cliché Online 23:13, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Aren't defoliants such as agent orange chemical weapons? Mike.lifeguard 05:11, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
To start only after the US entered the treaty is pretty non-neutral. How about the 20-30 years previous where they were doing research into offensive biological weapons? - Francis Tyers · 07:40, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
"Iran has advanced biology and genetic engineering research programmes supporting an industry that produces world-class vaccines for both domestic use and export.[5] The dual-use nature of these facilities mean that Iran, like any country with advanced biological research programmes, could easily produce biological warfare agents."
"Iran is known to possess cultures of the many biological agents for legitimate scientific purposes which have been weaponised by other nations in the past, or could theoretically be weaponised, though they do not allege that Iran has attempted to weaponise them, Iran possesses sufficient biological facilities to potentially do so.[7]"
The above is used in article Iran_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction. Could same wording be added to section on biological weapons here? 172.159.69.47 14:04, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
YOu guys are smarter than me, and I presume you have been going over this with a fine-toothed comb. But, I have a problem with the first sentence. The US has no usable chemical weapons. (Well, OK CS we got.) We have nasty old weapons that have no military use and are being destroyed. Same with biological weapons, but more so. The has some batches of nasty germs. We have no way to deliver them. So, no weapons.
I will take no action, as this is not my area of expertise, but still, that first line is just misleading and wrong. Paul, in Saudi 15:25, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
"The U.S. arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is the second largest in the world; depending on the definition."
Depending on the definition, the U.S. arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is either the second largest in the world, or the second largest in the world? SalineBrain ( talk) 16:55, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, it has been wrote that there are 94 B-1s, when it is 64. So, either we include in Russia's article the aircraft that are in reserve (those 90 Tu-22M3 to those 160 allready listed and some Tu-95), or we don't add inactive reserve aircraft to US strategic bombers article. It is one or the other, because if we include reserve aircraft in to US fleet, it makes it look like US has larger strategic bomber fleet, while in fact it is quite the opposite, Russia has largest. 99.231.63.253 ( talk) 16:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)Pavel Golikov.
I removed the following section from the article itself as it does not meet Wikipedia's Manual of Style and Neutral Point of View policies.
The information is not factual, is not referenced, is original research, and has no place in an encyclopedic discussion of WMD. If you would like to include such information, then you need to clean it up according to accepted standards. If you insist on a third revert, you could be locked out of editing for this article. Don'tKnowItAtAll ( talk) 18:03, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
What is the reason for having the following in the lead:
1. The United States' attitude towards these weapons has been claimed to be primarily defensive, and the actual use of such weapons seen as inhumane unless first provoked. As President Roosevelt stated during World War II:
2. “ Use of such (biological and chemical weapons) has been outlawed by the general opinion of mankind. This country has not used them and I hope we never will be compelled to use them. I state categorically that we shall under no circumstances resort to the use of such weapons unless they are first used by our enemies. ”
3. Since Roosevelt's statement, the U.S. has destroyed its biological weapons and begun destroying its chemical weapons. The U.S. is a participant in the Biological Weapons Convention and the Chemical Weapons Convention which ban the production, possession or use of those classes of weapons. The U.S. retains a large arsenal of nuclear weapons as a defensive deterrent, limited by several international and bilateral treaties.
to 1: "attitude towards these weapons has been claimed to be primarily defensive" - Sure they are only for defense. But I'm also sure that each and every country possessing WMD would say the same. So what is the point of having this sentence here?
to 2: "I state categorically that we shall under no circumstances resort to the use of such weapons unless they are first used by our enemies." - still, the next president used them first anyway. So what is the point of having this old sentence from Roosevelt here? Is the statement somehow especially important to the US doctrine or what?
to 3: "Since Roosevelt's statement, the U.S. has destroyed its biological weapons and begun destroying its chemical weapons." - great news, but still, "has begun to destroy" is different from "has destroyed." Russia is doing the same - started to destroy them - but still this is not mentioned in the lead of Russia's corresponding article
"The U.S. retains a large arsenal of nuclear weapons as a defensive deterrent, limited by several international and bilateral treaties" - "they are only for defense!" gets repeated here again. But I think we already understood it the first time. Besides, "it's a defensive deterrent" is not really a fact, but a claim, so why is this unsourced statement presented here as a fact?
This whole lead doesn't sound very NPOV to me. I'd like to especially point out, that the leads of the corresponding articles for other countries, France, Russia and India for example, only mention what they have and do not provide explanations/justifications "they're only for defense!", "we are already destroying our chemical weapons!", etc. at all. Why does the US article receive a different treatment? Offliner ( talk) 19:40, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
5800 nuclear warhead USA vs 3081 Russia
chemical weapon to Russia is liquidated to 2012 and is already liquidated 80 %
bacteriological weapon is forbidden beside all
US mass destruction weapon arsenal the largest in world Gnomsovet ( talk) 00:05, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_war#Proposed_use_of_nuclear_weapons
And at the beginning of the Persian Gulf war, Bush Sr. threatened Saddam that if he used his Chemical weapons on US troops that he would retaliate with nuclear strikes against Iraq.
It just seems to me that an article on the USA and WMDs should included incidences of Near-Use and Threatened-Use of them.
BillyTFried ( talk) 00:31, 1 June 2009 (UTC)
Also, the threatened attacks by North Korea should be mentioned in this article. Kevinmon ( talk) 20:12, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
That section is so large that it should probably be spun off into its own article. The following material was added by another editor to another article, where it was too general to be germane. It may be of use for expanding the aforementioned history though.
BEGIN PASTE
In order to understand the rationale for chemical and biological research from World War II until 1975, it is necessary to examine the history of the use of chemical and biological agents in warfare and to understand the perceived threat to the Free World during the Cold War. [1]
In 1915, during World War I, the Germans released chlorine gas at Ypres. Gas warfare quickly proliferated on the battlefield. Both sides introduced phosgene (choking gas) and a vomiting gas in late 1915, followed by blood agents in 1916 and mustard agent (a blistering agent) in 1917. By the end of the war, chemical agents caused more than one million casualties and 90,000 deaths. Neither side used biological agents during the war although they did investigate plant and animal diseases. [1] At the outset of World War II, the United States moved to protect its food supply from biological pathogens by setting up an extensive surveillance program. The Army established Fort Detrick, Maryland in 1942 as their primary research and development center for biological agents. Edgewood Arsenal, Maryland was the Army’s principal research and development center for chemical agents. Dugway Proving Ground, Utah was the main testing area for both chemical and biological weapons. [1] At the conclusion of World War II, the United States was surprised to discover that the Germans had developed a new class of chemical agents – nerve agents. The Soviets captured a German tabun (nerve agent GA) production plant, moved it to Russia and made GA their standard nerve gas. The United States adopted sarin (nerve agent GB), also discovered by the Germans, as their standard nerve agent. By the early 1950s, the United States believed it lagged behind the Soviet Union in the development of chemical agents. It was in this context that the United States accelerated its chemical warfare research and development efforts. As part of this accelerated program, experimenters used Service members as human volunteers to determine the effects of chemical agents, as well as to develop therapeutics and prophylactics. [1]
After World War II, the United States sent teams to Germany and Japan to determine the status of their biological warfare programs. While Germany’s program was not very advanced, Japan had an extensive program. During the war, Japan’s principal biological research element, UNIT 731, released biological agents in China and performed experiments on prisoners of war. After the war, pressures of the Cold War and fear of the Russian program led the United States to expand its biological warfare program. This program examined the effective prevention and treatment of biological warfare casualties, determination of minimal effective doses of pathogens, and the effectiveness of vaccines and drugs. Fort Detrick established Project Whitecoat, a human volunteer program to support its efforts. [1] While the Medical Research Volunteer Program conducted at Edgewood Arsenal collected information on the effects of psychochemicals (hallucinogenic drugs) on individuals, there was no information on how these drugs would affect groups of people. Specifically, would they produce disorganizing and disruptive effects on military units? In order to gather the required information, personnel from Edgewood Arsenal conducted field testing of LSD at Fort Bragg (1958) and Fort Benning (1960). [1] See also: Project Delirium, Project DORK, MKDELTA
Precise information on the number of tests, experiments, and participants is not available and the exact number of veterans exposed will probably never be known. [1] DoD’s current effort to identify Cold War exposures began in 2004 and is endeavoring to identify all non-Project 112/SHAD veterans exposed to chemical and biological substances due to testing and accidents from World War II through 1975. [1] As information on specific tests and testing programs is identified by the Office of the Special Assistant, Chemical and Biological Defense and Chemical Demilitarization Programs, along with the names of military participants, the information is provided to Force Health Protection & Readiness (FHP&R) to validate. It is then provided to the Department of Veterans Affairs, who notifies the veteran of his exposure. As of June 30, 2008, FHP&R had identified approximately 10,500 veterans involved in Cold War testing or other events that may have resulted in an exposure. [1] Testing did not necessarily involve exposure to a harmful substance. Many veterans participated in performance or equipment tests that did not involve biological or chemical substances. Others received medicines (e.g., Benadryl). For completeness and to be able to respond to veteran’s questions, FHP&R decided to include all veterans associated with testing in their database whether these veterans were exposed to chemical or biological warfare agents or not. Completion of the investigation is schedule for 2011. DoD will then continue to pursue any leads or information that is provided from any source. [1]
END PASTE. 86.121.18.17 ( talk) 00:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)
References
A recent edit summary said this article is part of a series all of which, by design, discuss all three WMDs. This of course is entirely untrue: it is actually part of a series of articles which jam nuclear, biological and chemical weapons into one article without any attempt to link them or justify placing them in one article. For WMD-type articles to serve an encyclopedic purpose, they would need to attempt to relate C/B/N weapons to each other for the relevant country, eg in terms of strategic decision-making or deployment. Without that, it's a purposeless collection of superficially related information. Podiaebba ( talk) 19:20, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
In an article primarily about nuclear weapons employing such colorful concepts as nuclear fission, nuclear fusion, and the like, the term "gravity bomb" sounds like some kind of science fiction contraption - I initially clicked the link thinking "what could this be?", only to be reminded that "gravity bomb" is another name for "unguided bomb". In my experience, "unguided bomb" is the far more common usage (your mileage may vary). So, I boldly adjusted the wording here. If that is disagreeable, feel free to revert my edit and leave a message explaining why (so I can make more agreeable edits in the future). 199.33.96.209 ( talk) 11:50, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
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Why is there no mention of Agent Orange used in the Vietnam war? Agent Orange - Use in the Vietnam War or the White Phosphorus attacks in Iraq? or when the US authorities continually use tear gas on its own citizens. Eck ( talk) 17:23, 14 August 2016 (UTC)
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