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Why is this article still locked? I want to make edits and surprised to find it still like this. Olawe ( talk) 19:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Just to clarify, the indefinite protection was not a mistake. Although the original intention was to lock it down and examine the sock puppetry issue myself, the fact that this issue is subject to an ongoing Arbcom case means that I defer to their judgment in this matter--after all, any blocks might be contrary to a forthcoming resolution. I did submit a proposal to unlock this page after putting everyone on 1RR, but the fact that I have yet to receive a reply tells me that this is apparently not sufficient. So for the time being I'm going to leave it locked--you can request consensus-based edits using {{ Editprotected}} or request unprotection at WP:RFPP. -- jonny- m t 12:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Can someone at least discuss the reasons they are edit-warring now? The material seems fine with me, which is why I reverted. However, I self-reverted because I am on a one week revert parole. I would like to see some discussion here about the problem. The material about Nicaruaga is about state terrorism and its not found in the main article. Even if it is, a short mention of the main issues involving the claims of state terrorism do belong here. Lastly, I do not condone this edit-warring, and that includes by accounts that agree with me. So if I have any sway over you guys, I'm asking you to stop edit-warring and discuss it here instead. Thanks. Giovanni33 ( talk) 03:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is the following being removed:
Florida State University professor, Frederick H. Gareau, has written that the Contras "attacked bridges, electric generators, but also state-owned agricultural cooperatives, rural health clinics, villages and non-combatants." U.S. agents were directly involved in the fighting. "CIA commandos launched a series of sabotage raids on Nicaraguan port facilities. They mined the country's major ports and set fire to its largest oil storage facilities." In 1984 the U.S. Congress ordered this intervention to be stopped, however it was later shown that the CIA illegally continued (See Iran-Contra affair). Professor Gareau has characterized these acts as "wholesale terrorism" by the United States.
It appears to be written by an academic, (an Assistant Professor of Government at the Florida State University, who was formerly of the University of Mississippi [1]), and thus a reliable source. Bless sins ( talk) 03:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I have protected this article (on the wrong version, naturally) against further editing as an uninvolved admin. I will also be examining some of the sock claims over the next day or so. -- jonny- m t 04:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Right out of the gate, I just want to say I don't dispute that the topic exists. I guess I just don't understand where the lines are drawn on what is and isn't "state terrorism" as defined by any authority with a modicum of credibility.
I do understand that when an article this emotionally charged and open to interpration is hashed out, that some compromises were made, parameters were established and so on, lots of hard work went into it, etc. but I have to question who made those choices and is it even worth it to have an article that provokes this much emotion and debate?
Unfortunately, only the people who want an article to exist are the ones creating, editing, and tenaciously fighting for gray area articles (like this one) and that tends to create POV issues because the people who disagree are either shouted down by the article clique or decide it isn't worth it (in my experience). Given the amount of deletion requests and endless discussion, however, clearly something about this article needs to be fixed in order to make it more encyclopedic and less political science conjecture (or emotionally charged).
The article essentially says that the United States supports terrorists and terrorism, has always supported terrorists and terrorism, and is in fact a terrorist state by the definitions/criteria established in this article (and the world at large). Is that a fact or is that open to debate? Is it far too much a gross oversimplification of many complex issues or is it a brief, accurate description/designation of one country? Maybe I'm in the wrong about Wikipedia should and shouldn't be, but this article just feels like it strays into a point of view (neither good nor bad, just too much opinion and conjecture) without articulating a balanced and/or larger counter-perspective and singles out an entire population to be vilified.
In case this was lost upon anyone, this article offends people. Not because it's wrong in its specific facts, but because it paints a whole country with a very wide brush and calls everyone who lives there a country full of murderers or at least accomplices to murder. If nothing else, it probably should be "by the United States Government" (in a very general sense) or even CIA or FBI or US Military (whoever) Alleged Acts etc. to be more specific about who is to blame for "acts of terrorism". We would never say the United States cured (fill in the blank) because they funded research into a cure, we would say that the scientists or lab where it was being researched were the creators of the cure.
And not for nothing, but we do live in a time when the perception of the United States has been severly diminished by it's involvement in the Iraq War and politics/emotion shouldn't be involved in creating/keeping (and to be fair, deleting) articles. Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a weapon or tool to express politics (or outrage) but there is a sense that's whats happened here. Not to thrown down this ole chestnut, but this article would never be found in a real encyclopedia. Yes, that isn't the only test of an article, but sometimes I wonder if it shouldn't be. 144.92.84.206 ( talk) 18:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
With the close of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Giovanni33, I have removed the full protection on this article. My apologies for the long wait. -- jonny- m t 11:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
The main article discussing the nuclear bombing as terrorism was deemed notable and worthy of an article. Clearly the main Terrorism by the US article can and should include a link to that article. Erasing the sourced content under claims of 'revisionism' is clearly pushing a POV to silence attempt to remove all reference to relevent content. If you wish to continue discussing merging the whole content of the bombing article here, please do so.--
The Red Pen of Doom
23:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote: "Empirical studies (see democide which has been argued to be equivalent to state terrorism[127]) have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships" I don't see how this is relevent to the topic of US state terror policy. It tells the reader nothing about the US. Domminico ( talk) 21:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
A similar article Allegations of state terrorism by Russia just has been nominated for deletion. I believe that either both (this and Russia's) articles should be deleted, or both should be kept. Otherwise, this is not logical. Everyone is welcome to comment there. Biophys ( talk) 01:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Torture and the United States Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 22:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
(moved to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Terrorism, now back by request -- Kendrick7 talk)
This is the single biggest problem clogging up any progress on this article. Can we start a controlled discussion here about how to put an end to it? Kendrick7 has started the article Atomic bombings of Japan as a form of state terrorism which is currently up for AfD. I don't agree with that approach but understand why he gave that a try. Rather than simply letting the AfD run its course maybe we can come up with a solution here. Let's try to stay on topic, be very civil, avoid inflammatory language, not point fingers at anyone, etc. No disrespect to IP editors, but I think this should just be between people with user accounts given all the random IP edits lately.
I'll try to characterize where we are at now. Some folks want this section deleted, but I think (and this might be debatable) that there is a much stronger view that something can be here, the debate is about where the "main material" will live and how much of it we will have. I'd suggest we take the problems in that order and thus proceed like this:
I understand this proposal starts on the assumption that some kind of Japan material will be here, but I think I'm being objective when I say that more people are okay with something being included than with everything being deleted. Those in that delete camp might consider whether it's worth it to let the Japan stuff stay if it will end up being neutral and if it will put an end to edit warring. I'm all for a discussion about the title, as is happening in the sections above, but the biggest disruption right now is coming from this Japan question.
With that I'll start a subsection for a small poll which will hopefully allow us to gauge consensus on the first issue and move toward ending this debate. I'd be thrilled if folks were willing to participate in this in a civil manner, but obviously anyone is welcome to reject this approach.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll put three options here. It might be useful for people to indicate their first and second choice. Please indicate if a given option is your first (and/or only) or second choice. A brief comment on your rationale might be good, but back and forth debates will not be fruitful. I included a discussion sub-section as well, which might be a good place to register a strong objection to a certain option, or to hash out certain points. Let's try to avoid unnecessary bickering and treat one another with respect.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
It's been a couple of weeks and no new comments seem to be trickling in so perhaps we should try to come to some consensus here. Since I started this discussion I'll try to interpret what we have here and point the way to a resolution, though obviously no one is beholden to my advice. The article is currently locked down and probably will be until the conclusion of an ArbCom case relating to the article, but in the meantime we can try to come to some agreement here. Ending this dispute would go a ways to allowing the article to come off protection.
Interpreting the poll would have been simpler had this AfD been closed as delete. However it was not (rightfully so, Sandstein did an excellent job closing in my view, though personally I wanted the article deleted). Here are my feelings about how to read the above straw poll:
Assuming we eliminate option two I think we are left with a couple of choices:
I do not think we can simply decide to keep the new article and end it there, at least at this point in the discussion. There is strong objection to this, another option is preferred by more people, and the AfD specifically allowed for a merge/redirect of that content. I have my view which I will express below, but I hope I'm summarizing the situation relatively fairly. I now propose we have a quick (as in several days) show of hands with brief explanation about whether choice one or two is preferred (no need to offer "oppose" votes obviously, it's one or the other). I'm not trying to draw out the discussion here (believe me) but I think we need a sense of where people stand given that the first poll did not produce unambiguous results. Let's do our best to come to a quick decision here so we can move on to other issues - please comment below.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
For many years, the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs (now DEA) wanted to have Manuel Noriega arrested for drug trafficking, but instead George Bush, Sr. kept him on the CIA payroll. For more than a decade, thousands of tons of cocaine poured onto the streets of America through the Panama Canal while the US government looked the other way. This destroyed the stability of millions of American families, and the repercussions to our society are still being felt today. ( Lenerd ( talk) 18:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC))
Jeb Bush's friend Orlando Bosch is a terrorist accused of blowing up an airplane killing 76 people in Cuba, but George Bush, Sr. thought so much of him that he gave him a Presidential Pardon. ( Lenerd ( talk) 18:42, 8 August 2008 (UTC))
Later in 1981, Bonzo authored $19 million for the C.I.A. to form and fund a counterrevolutionary army - the Contras - to overthrow the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua. His meddling in both countries accomplished its objective: covert war in Central America.
December 10,1981: Units of the Atlacatl Battalion, funded and trained by the U.S., arrived at the Salvadoran village of El Mozote searching for rebels. They found only refugees.
¡FunFact!: The U.S. Army trained officers of the Atlacatl Battalion at the infamous School of the Americas (S.O.A.). Many S.O.A. graduates went on to commit atrocities throughout Latin America. Because of citizen protests, the U.S. government shut down S.O.A. in 2000 and reopened it in January 2001 as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.
The Thistle: On December 17, 1981 the Atlacatl Battalion ordered the people of El Mozote out into the streets. They then sent the women and children back to their houses and all the men in the village to the church where they began executing and decapitating the men. Next, the separated the women from the children and killed both groups in the same fashion.
Days later, the F.M.L.N. discovered the carnage. On December 24, 1981, their rebel radio reported the massacre.
The F.M.L.N. contacted New York Times reporter Raymond Bonner and took him and Photographer Susan Meiselas to the site. Bonner interviewed the sole survivor Rufina Amaya who hid in thorn bushes until the soldiers left. She found the entire village dead (at least 1000 civilians), including her husband and four children.
On January 17, 1982 Bonner's story appeared in the New York Times.
To keep aid flowing, Congress required Bonzo to certify that El Salvador was improving its human rights record. After Bonner's report, he did. "The Salvadoran government is making a concerted and significant effort to comply with internationally recognized human rights."~ Bonzo
Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights Elliot Abrams denounced reports of the massacre at El Mozote as Fiction. "This is nothing but communist propaganda."~ Elliot Abrams
Bowing to pressure from the White House, The Times pulled Bonner off the story. The civil war in El Salvador ended in 1992. A truth commission sent forensic scientists to El Mozote.
It was all true.
It was policy.
By the time of the El Mozote Massacre, Bonzo and Casey were already planning the overthrow of Nicaragua's Sandinista government. The C.I.A. organized Somoza's National Guard into a counter-revolutionary force. Because of the Nicaraguan people's hate for the National Guard the decided to base them next door in Honduras. From Honduras, a very poor country dominated by the United States, the Contras moved across the border...
...blowing up bridges...
...burning schools...
...destroying farm co-ops...
...and killing people in cold blood.
Bonzo then imposed a trade embargo and cut off all international loans to the Sandinista state. Casey egged on the Contras to make bolder attacks.
September 8, 1983: A twin-engine Cessna carrying two 500-pound bombs flew low over the Managua airport. Shot down by airport defense it crashed into the airport.
Hours later, U.S. Senators Gary Hart and William Cohen arrived on a fact-finding mission. When reporters asked if it was a C.I.A. attack, Cohen stated that, "The C.I.A. isn't that dumb." Once he was shown a case of C.I.A. documents found in the wreckage he was convinced that U.S. Intelligence was indeed, that dumb. Despite his discovery, Congress did nothing. Casey ordered more attacks.
October 11, 1983, Bay of Corinto, Nicaragua: The Contras blew up oil storage tanks.
October 14, 1983, Port of Sandino: An oil platform was attacked. Exxon announced that it was too dangerous to bring in more tankers. The Contras took the credit.
To top it off, the C.I.A. mined the harbors. When a British ship struck a mine Congress finally had enough and rejected the Administration's request for and additional $21 million in Contra aid.
Lenerd ( talk) 18:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Seymour Hersh has claimed that the U.S. government has been supporting PEJAK, the Iranian branch of the PKK. In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, the head of the PKK's militant arm, Murat Karayilan, claimed that Iran attempted to recruit the PKK to attack coalition forces, adding that Kurdish guerrillas have launched a clandestine war in north-western Iran, ambushing Iranian troops. The Chief of the Turkish General Staff, General Yaşar Büyükanıt stated that even though the international struggle had been discussed on every platform and even though organizations such as the UN, NATO, EU make statements of serious commitment, to this day the necessary measures had not been taken. Büyükanıt continued:
On the contrary, this conduct on one side has encouraged the terrorists, on the other side it assisted in widening their [the terrorists] activities. The most distressful part of it is that many of the European countries being a member of NATO, an organization that had announced that terrorism was the greatest threat to itself.
Sedat Laciner, of the Turkish think tank ISRO, says that US support of the PKK undermines the US war on terrorism.
A former militant, who recently had turned himself in to the Turkish police, claimed that the weapons for PKK in the north of Iraq were provided by US armoured vehicles.
Lenerd (
talk)
18:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is a section missing on the US Courts rulings on the "political crimes defense" or " political offense exception" as successfully used by some members of the IRA, Eg Quinn v. Robinson (M. Cherif Bassiouni, Legal Responses to International Terrorism, page ~194; Page 17, NORTHERN IRELAND: TP , T , S 11 (PDF) Queen's University Belfast School of Law).
This has been used in US courts post 9/11 see this report (March 10, 2005) "Under Quinn, the majority explained, an offense committed in connection with a political 'uprising' falls under the exception if its 'causally or ideologically' related to that event. In so holding, the court implicitly rejected Trott’s conclusion that the political exception will never apply to the killing of an innocent bystander, at least in a country where democratic means of change are available." Personally I can't see a US government being very sympathetic to a foreign court that accepted such a defense by a person who attacked US citizen!
On the other side of the same coin is the US law allowing the kidnapping of a person from a country that does not recognize that the US has such a right (see David Leppard US says it has right to kidnap British citizens, Sunday Times December 2, 2007. "Alun Jones QC, representing the US government ... [said in a British court] 'If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse — it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s.'"
From the point of view of another state, both of these legal positions could be seen as supporting terrorism, as would the U.S. government towards any state that invoked such arguments to refuse extradition to terrorists ("political offense exception") or kidnapped U.S. citizens from the U.S. and then tried them under the laws of a foreign state. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 11:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Luis Posada is a
Cuban-born
Venezuelan and a former CIA operative. He has been accused of a string of terrorist bombings, including that of
Cubana Flight 455 in 1976, many years after leaving the CIA.
The edit above was reverted. Why? If Posada was in fact a "CIA operative" in 1976, then this fact should be directly noted and should not be implied. If Posada was not known to be employed by the CIA in 1976, then this fact is critical to avoiding a violation of WP:NPOV. So which is it, do we have a reliable source that he was a "CIA operative" in 1976 - or not? If we do not, is there any objection to informing the Reader of this critical fact? Do we all agree that the present text is a NPOV violation?
Note that the question above is a policy and is not a content question. This section is for discussion of this question in regard to NPOV, the section immediately above for Posada-related content issues. Raggz ( talk) 04:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It's important to clarify with non-partisan sources whether he was ever a CIA operative and whether he was at the time he was supposed to carry out these attacks. If he was merely a former CIA operative then I'm not sure how that's US sponsored state terrorism. John Smith's ( talk) 15:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
The following text is being deleted because it is irrelevant to the topiv: "A secret plan, Operation Northwoods, was approved by the the Pentagon and Joint Chiefs of Staff and submitted for action to Robert McNamara[21] then Secretary of Defense. This plan included acts of violence on U.S. soil or against U.S. interests, such as plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities; blowing up a U.S. ship, and contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "The U.S. could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by U.S. fighters 'evacuate' remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." The plan was rejected by the Kennedy administration after the Bay of Pigs Invasion.[22][23]"
Acts by governments can be state terrorism, but discussions and plans cannot be. Even if they were such, sixty year old plans are too irrel;evant for inclusion. Raggz ( talk) 06:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Arno Mayer, Emeritus Professor of History at Princeton University, has stated that "since 1947 America has been the chief and pioneering perpetrator of 'preemptive' state terror, exclusively in the Third World and therefore widely dissembled."[4] Noam Chomsky also argues that "Washington is the center of global state terrorism and has been for years."[5] Chomsky has characterized the tactics used by agents of the U.S. government and their proxies in their execution of U.S. foreign policy — in such countries as Nicaragua — as a form of terrorism and has also described the U.S as "a leading terrorist state."[6]
After President George W. Bush began using the term "War on Terrorism", Chomsky stated in an interview:[6][7]
The U.S. is officially committed to what is called "low-intensity warfare"... If you read the definition of low-intensity conflict in army manuals and compare it with official definitions of "terrorism" in army manuals, or the U.S. Code, you find they're almost the same.''
The section above is presently eligible for an NPOV deletion. It has a single POV. I'm not inclined to work on bringing it into compliance. Who is? If no one wants to, I will delete it. As it says, it only includes unsupported allegations anyway...07:29, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
In April 2007, CNN reported that the US military and the International Committee of the Red Cross were protecting the People's Mujahedin of Iran, with the US army regularly escorting PMOI supply runs between Baghdad and its base, Camp Ashraf.[74] The PMOI have been designated as a terrorist organization by the United States (since 1997), Canada, and Iran.[75][76] According to the Wall Street Journal[77] "senior diplomats in the Clinton administration say the PMOI figured prominently as a bargaining chip in a bridge-building effort with Tehran." The PMOI is also on the European Union's blacklist of terrorist organizations, which lists 28 organizations, since 2002.[78] The enlistments included: Foreign Terrorist Organization by the United States in 1997 under the Immigration and Nationality Act, and again in 2001 pursuant to section 1(b) of Executive Order 13224; as well as by the European Union (EU) in 2002.[79] Its bank accounts were frozen in 2002 after the September 11 attacks and a call by the EU to block terrorist organizations' funding. However, the European Court of Justice has overturned this in December 2006 and has criticized the lack of "transparency" with which the blacklist is composed.[80] However, the Council of the EU declared on 2007-01-30 that it would maintain the organization on the blacklist.[81][82] The EU-freezing of funds was lifted on 2006-12-12 by the European Court of First Instance.[83] In 2003 the US State Department included the NCRI on the blacklist, under Executive Order 13224.[84]
According to a 2003 article by the New York Times, the US 1997 proscription of the group on the terrorist blacklist was done as "a goodwill gesture toward Iran's newly elected reform-minded president, Mohammad Khatami" (succeeded in 2005 by the more conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad).[85] In 2002, 150 members of the United States Congress signed a letter calling for the lifting of this designation.[86] The PMOI have also tried to have the designation removed through several court cases in the U.S. The PMOI has now lost three appeals (1999, 2001 and 2003) to the US government to be removed from the list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, and its terrorist status was reaffirmed each time. The PMOI has continued to protest worldwide against its listing, with the overt support of some US political figures.[87][88]
Past supporters of the PMOI have included Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), Rep. Bob Filner, (D-CA), and Sen. Kit Bond (R-MO), and former Attorney General John Ashcroft, "who became involved with the [PMOI] while a Republican senator from Missouri."[89][90] In 2000, 200 U.S. Congress members signed a statement endorsing the organization's cause.[91]
I propose to delete the section above because there is no allegation of US state terrorism, and no reliable source that claims this. What is alleged is that the US escorts an Iranian terrorist group within Iraq. This is not terrorism. Raggz ( talk) 08:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Richard Falk, Professor Emeritus of International Law and Practice at Princeton, has argued that the U.S. and other first-world states, as well as mainstream mass media institutions, have obfuscated the true character and scope of terrorism, promulgating a one-sided view from the standpoint of first-world privilege. He has said that "if 'terrorism' as a term of moral and legal opprobrium is to be used at all, then it should apply to violence deliberately targeting civilians, whether committed by state actors or their non-state enemies."[9][10] Moreover, Falk argues that the repudiation of authentic non-state terrorism is insufficient as a strategy for mitigating it, writing that "we must also illuminate the character of terrorism, and its true scope... The propagandists of the modern state conceal its reliance on terrorism and associate it exclusively with Third World revolutionaries and their leftist sympathizers in the industrial countries."[11]
The section above is presently eligible for an NPOV deletion. It has a single POV. I'm not inclined to work on bringing it into compliance. Who is? If no one wants to, I will delete it. As it says, it only includes unsupported allegations anyway Raggz ( talk) 07:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The CIA has been accused of being the perpetrator of a 1985 Beirut car bombing which killed 81 people. The bombing was apparently an assassination attempt on an Islamic cleric, Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah.[94] The bombing, known as the Bir bombing after Bir el-Abed, the impoverished Beirut neighborhood in which it had occurred, was reported by the New York Times to have caused a "massive" explosion "even by local standards," killing 81 people, and wounding more than 200.[95] Investigative journalist Bob Woodward stated that the CIA was funded by the Saudi Arabian government to arrange the bombing.[96][94] Fadlallah himself also claims to have evidence that the CIA was behind the attack and that the Saudis paid $3 million.[97]
The U.S. National Security Advisor Robert McFarlane admitted that those responsible for the bomb may have had American training, but that they were "rogue operative(s)" and the CIA in no way sanctioned or supported the attack.[98] Roger Morris writes in the Asia Times that the next day, a notice hung over the devastated area where families were still digging the bodies of relatives out of the rubble. It read: "Made in the USA". The terrorist strike on Bir el-Abed is seen as a product of U.S. covert policy in Lebanon. Agreeing with the proposals of CIA director William Casey, president Ronald Reagan sanctioned the Bir attack in retaliation for the truck-bombing of the U.S. Marine Corps barracks at Beirut airport in October 1983, which, Roger Morris alleges, in turn had been a reprisal for earlier U.S. acts of intervention and diplomatic dealings in Lebanon's civil war that had resulted in hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinian lives. After CIA operatives had repeatedly failed to arrange Casey's car-bombing, the CIA allegedly "farmed out" the operation to agents of its longtime Lebanese client, the Phalange, a Maronite Christian, anti-Islamic militia.[95] Others allege the 1984 Bombing of the U.S. Embassy annex northeast of Beirut as the motivating factor.[98]
The section above requires immediate deletion for its NPOV violations. It does make supportable claims and could be salvaged by someone willing to bring the language and perspective into NPOV compliance. Does anyone want to undertake this? I will just delete it if no one wants to salvage it. Raggz ( talk) 08:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Allegations of harboring terrorists ...The U.S. has also been criticized for failing to condemn Panama's pardoning of the alleged terrorists Guillermo and Ignacio Novo Sampoll, Pedro Remon, and Gaspar Jimenez, instead allowing them to walk free on U.S. streets.[21] Claudia Furiati has suggested Sampol was linked to President Kennedy's assassination and plans to kill President Castro.[34]
I expect to delete the above. Whom the President of Panama decides to pardon is not the business of the US. If the men have comitted no crimes, why shouldn't they "walk free"? Is the failure of the US to interfer in Panama's business really state terrorism? Raggz ( talk) 09:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This source is owned by the Cuban Government, which has formally renounced freedom of the press. Does anyone object to treating this source as being the Cuban Government, a primary source, and not a journalistic source. See also WP:REDFLAG. Raggz ( talk) 08:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Common Dreams is an advocacy organization and is not a reliable source with fact checking. I suggest that we do not use citations from this source.
From their site: "Common Dreams: "Common Dreams is a national non-profit citizens' organization working to bring progressive Americans together to promote progressive visions for America's future. We are committed to being on the cutting-edge of using the internet as a political organizing tool - and creating new models for internet activism. Raggz ( talk) 08:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not too bothered about this kind of article as a whole (although this one covers some interesting material, it's too much of a POV magnet really and it's hard to avoid them becoming political polemics). However given that it is here, the deletions proposed above are not acceptable. They appear to fall into two broad categories:
1) Deleting references to comments by Chomsky, Falk etc on the basis of NPOV is nonsensical. They are here because they are well-known academics/activists articulating some of the allegations. If there is a genuine issue with balance, this should be resolved by adding counter-comments or rebuttals (a brief read suggests there are plenty of these as it is)
2) Deleting sections that refer to US support for terror groups eg the MKO, is also absurd given the scope of this article as defined in the lead, and the fact that there is no specific agreed definition of "state terrorism" in any event (ie who says it has to involve direct state action?) Perhaps the article itself might be renamed to avoid any confusion (eg to something discussing "involvement in" or "support for" terrorism or "state-sponsored" terrorism).
More broadly the habit of putting a note on a talk page saying "I propose deleting .." as if prepared to enter into discussion about it, but then just unilaterally deleting the material pretty shortly afterwards anyway before getting any response is hardly best editing practice
-- Nickhh ( talk) 09:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of WP policies, and you correctly suggest that these authors may be cited. You have raised your strawman and now have defeated it, but you have yet to address the issue I raise. [[Wp:npov] is a policy that requires more NPOV balance than these sections now offer. You could add a dozen very notable authors of like opinions, but all that this would do is to make the NPOV problem worse. As an editor, it is required that I either delete NPOV violations OR correct them. I choose to delete. I also choose to discuss this here, so that other editors have the chance to consider and discuss this.
As an editor, you also have the option to (1) debate that there exists NPOV balance, or (2) to edit the text until it is there, or (3) to delete it yourself. Is there a fourth option? Assigning an editing assignment to me is not your fourth option. So what am I missing? Raggz ( talk) 23:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
RPOD said: "My opinion, See below - it is not appropriate to remove sourced material from notable figures in the field under some misinterpreted application of NPOV."
Is there NPOV balance - or not? Please, a direct answer, please? Raggz ( talk) 04:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
User:Raggz we are not talking about the law of war, as the article already mentioned ( US says it has right to kidnap British citizens, Sunday Times December 2, 2007.) says:
The admission will alarm the British business community after the case of the so-called NatWest Three, bankers who were extradited to America on fraud charges. More than a dozen other British executives, including senior managers at British Airways and BAE Systems, are under investigation by the US authorities and could face criminal charges in America.
Until now it was commonly assumed that US law permitted kidnapping only in the “extraordinary rendition” of terrorist suspects.
The American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime by Washington.
Can you imagine the political reaction in the U.S. if another country was to kidnap an American citizen from a city street in America, bundle them into a private plane and fly them to another country to stand trial for a white collar crime, that was not a white collar crime in the U.S? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 21:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The title should be changed to "Allegations of state terrorism AGAINST the United States", "Allegations of state terrorism by the United States" suggests US allegations against Iran or Korea to me. Research Method ( talk) 00:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
In the Opposing views section, this sentence "Empirical studies (see democide which has been argued to be equivalent to state terrorism[101]) have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships.[102][103]"
Doesn't seem to be at all related to the topic of whether or not the US has perpetrated state terrorism. Normally I would just remove it, but this article is controversial enough that I would like to give others a chance to confirm this. Does anyone see how it fits into the article? TrogdorPolitiks ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC).
I totally agree for it to be removed, its like saying "Hey our crimes are not so bad compared to "dictatorships""
I'm not entirely sure how to make a citation, but some of the counterpoints from Atomic_bombings_of_Japan_as_a_form_of_state_terrorism should be copied over to this section to neutralize the point of view. This whole article is generally WP:POV but that's the most striking example of it. The issue of using nuclear weapons is on the whole a controversial topic. Even limiting it to whether the nukes used against Japan can be defined as terrorism has several points of view.
Also the "Opposing Viewpoints" section is not the right way to go about balancing the POV issue for the article. Each section should be balanced to the point of WP:NPOV. This is a fairly radical topic so stating the cases as if there was consensus in the world that these things can be considered terrorism is inherently POV. 64.132.80.134 ( talk) 23:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand how the section on the PMOI relates to the article's subject. There's a single sentence at the beginning of the paragraph that indicates the US is protecting the group. The rest of the section details US efforts to keep the group listed as a terrorist entity and curtail it's activities. Yes, there are US politicians and opinion writers who think the group should be used against Iran. But the fact is that they haven't committed an attack on Iran (or anywhere else for that matter) since 2003. I'd propose removing the whole paragraph as unrelated. Chris (complaints)• (contribs) 12:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Link to a segment in which Bill Moyers explicitly states that US actions in Vietnam and Iraq were state terrorism:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/01/bill_moyers_reflects_on_middle.html
I'm not an active editor on this page. But this may be of use and is certainly relevant. 76.229.176.118 ( talk) 20:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Why are there no references to the killings in Pakistan and Syria? Syria has publicaly accused the US of terrorism http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7693583.stm
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Why is this article still locked? I want to make edits and surprised to find it still like this. Olawe ( talk) 19:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Just to clarify, the indefinite protection was not a mistake. Although the original intention was to lock it down and examine the sock puppetry issue myself, the fact that this issue is subject to an ongoing Arbcom case means that I defer to their judgment in this matter--after all, any blocks might be contrary to a forthcoming resolution. I did submit a proposal to unlock this page after putting everyone on 1RR, but the fact that I have yet to receive a reply tells me that this is apparently not sufficient. So for the time being I'm going to leave it locked--you can request consensus-based edits using {{ Editprotected}} or request unprotection at WP:RFPP. -- jonny- m t 12:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Can someone at least discuss the reasons they are edit-warring now? The material seems fine with me, which is why I reverted. However, I self-reverted because I am on a one week revert parole. I would like to see some discussion here about the problem. The material about Nicaruaga is about state terrorism and its not found in the main article. Even if it is, a short mention of the main issues involving the claims of state terrorism do belong here. Lastly, I do not condone this edit-warring, and that includes by accounts that agree with me. So if I have any sway over you guys, I'm asking you to stop edit-warring and discuss it here instead. Thanks. Giovanni33 ( talk) 03:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Why is the following being removed:
Florida State University professor, Frederick H. Gareau, has written that the Contras "attacked bridges, electric generators, but also state-owned agricultural cooperatives, rural health clinics, villages and non-combatants." U.S. agents were directly involved in the fighting. "CIA commandos launched a series of sabotage raids on Nicaraguan port facilities. They mined the country's major ports and set fire to its largest oil storage facilities." In 1984 the U.S. Congress ordered this intervention to be stopped, however it was later shown that the CIA illegally continued (See Iran-Contra affair). Professor Gareau has characterized these acts as "wholesale terrorism" by the United States.
It appears to be written by an academic, (an Assistant Professor of Government at the Florida State University, who was formerly of the University of Mississippi [1]), and thus a reliable source. Bless sins ( talk) 03:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
I have protected this article (on the wrong version, naturally) against further editing as an uninvolved admin. I will also be examining some of the sock claims over the next day or so. -- jonny- m t 04:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Right out of the gate, I just want to say I don't dispute that the topic exists. I guess I just don't understand where the lines are drawn on what is and isn't "state terrorism" as defined by any authority with a modicum of credibility.
I do understand that when an article this emotionally charged and open to interpration is hashed out, that some compromises were made, parameters were established and so on, lots of hard work went into it, etc. but I have to question who made those choices and is it even worth it to have an article that provokes this much emotion and debate?
Unfortunately, only the people who want an article to exist are the ones creating, editing, and tenaciously fighting for gray area articles (like this one) and that tends to create POV issues because the people who disagree are either shouted down by the article clique or decide it isn't worth it (in my experience). Given the amount of deletion requests and endless discussion, however, clearly something about this article needs to be fixed in order to make it more encyclopedic and less political science conjecture (or emotionally charged).
The article essentially says that the United States supports terrorists and terrorism, has always supported terrorists and terrorism, and is in fact a terrorist state by the definitions/criteria established in this article (and the world at large). Is that a fact or is that open to debate? Is it far too much a gross oversimplification of many complex issues or is it a brief, accurate description/designation of one country? Maybe I'm in the wrong about Wikipedia should and shouldn't be, but this article just feels like it strays into a point of view (neither good nor bad, just too much opinion and conjecture) without articulating a balanced and/or larger counter-perspective and singles out an entire population to be vilified.
In case this was lost upon anyone, this article offends people. Not because it's wrong in its specific facts, but because it paints a whole country with a very wide brush and calls everyone who lives there a country full of murderers or at least accomplices to murder. If nothing else, it probably should be "by the United States Government" (in a very general sense) or even CIA or FBI or US Military (whoever) Alleged Acts etc. to be more specific about who is to blame for "acts of terrorism". We would never say the United States cured (fill in the blank) because they funded research into a cure, we would say that the scientists or lab where it was being researched were the creators of the cure.
And not for nothing, but we do live in a time when the perception of the United States has been severly diminished by it's involvement in the Iraq War and politics/emotion shouldn't be involved in creating/keeping (and to be fair, deleting) articles. Wikipedia shouldn't be used as a weapon or tool to express politics (or outrage) but there is a sense that's whats happened here. Not to thrown down this ole chestnut, but this article would never be found in a real encyclopedia. Yes, that isn't the only test of an article, but sometimes I wonder if it shouldn't be. 144.92.84.206 ( talk) 18:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
With the close of Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Giovanni33, I have removed the full protection on this article. My apologies for the long wait. -- jonny- m t 11:28, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
The main article discussing the nuclear bombing as terrorism was deemed notable and worthy of an article. Clearly the main Terrorism by the US article can and should include a link to that article. Erasing the sourced content under claims of 'revisionism' is clearly pushing a POV to silence attempt to remove all reference to relevent content. If you wish to continue discussing merging the whole content of the bombing article here, please do so.--
The Red Pen of Doom
23:12, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
Quote: "Empirical studies (see democide which has been argued to be equivalent to state terrorism[127]) have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships" I don't see how this is relevent to the topic of US state terror policy. It tells the reader nothing about the US. Domminico ( talk) 21:59, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
A similar article Allegations of state terrorism by Russia just has been nominated for deletion. I believe that either both (this and Russia's) articles should be deleted, or both should be kept. Otherwise, this is not logical. Everyone is welcome to comment there. Biophys ( talk) 01:59, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Torture and the United States Cinnamon colbert ( talk) 22:06, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
(moved to Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Terrorism, now back by request -- Kendrick7 talk)
This is the single biggest problem clogging up any progress on this article. Can we start a controlled discussion here about how to put an end to it? Kendrick7 has started the article Atomic bombings of Japan as a form of state terrorism which is currently up for AfD. I don't agree with that approach but understand why he gave that a try. Rather than simply letting the AfD run its course maybe we can come up with a solution here. Let's try to stay on topic, be very civil, avoid inflammatory language, not point fingers at anyone, etc. No disrespect to IP editors, but I think this should just be between people with user accounts given all the random IP edits lately.
I'll try to characterize where we are at now. Some folks want this section deleted, but I think (and this might be debatable) that there is a much stronger view that something can be here, the debate is about where the "main material" will live and how much of it we will have. I'd suggest we take the problems in that order and thus proceed like this:
I understand this proposal starts on the assumption that some kind of Japan material will be here, but I think I'm being objective when I say that more people are okay with something being included than with everything being deleted. Those in that delete camp might consider whether it's worth it to let the Japan stuff stay if it will end up being neutral and if it will put an end to edit warring. I'm all for a discussion about the title, as is happening in the sections above, but the biggest disruption right now is coming from this Japan question.
With that I'll start a subsection for a small poll which will hopefully allow us to gauge consensus on the first issue and move toward ending this debate. I'd be thrilled if folks were willing to participate in this in a civil manner, but obviously anyone is welcome to reject this approach.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll put three options here. It might be useful for people to indicate their first and second choice. Please indicate if a given option is your first (and/or only) or second choice. A brief comment on your rationale might be good, but back and forth debates will not be fruitful. I included a discussion sub-section as well, which might be a good place to register a strong objection to a certain option, or to hash out certain points. Let's try to avoid unnecessary bickering and treat one another with respect.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 00:16, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
It's been a couple of weeks and no new comments seem to be trickling in so perhaps we should try to come to some consensus here. Since I started this discussion I'll try to interpret what we have here and point the way to a resolution, though obviously no one is beholden to my advice. The article is currently locked down and probably will be until the conclusion of an ArbCom case relating to the article, but in the meantime we can try to come to some agreement here. Ending this dispute would go a ways to allowing the article to come off protection.
Interpreting the poll would have been simpler had this AfD been closed as delete. However it was not (rightfully so, Sandstein did an excellent job closing in my view, though personally I wanted the article deleted). Here are my feelings about how to read the above straw poll:
Assuming we eliminate option two I think we are left with a couple of choices:
I do not think we can simply decide to keep the new article and end it there, at least at this point in the discussion. There is strong objection to this, another option is preferred by more people, and the AfD specifically allowed for a merge/redirect of that content. I have my view which I will express below, but I hope I'm summarizing the situation relatively fairly. I now propose we have a quick (as in several days) show of hands with brief explanation about whether choice one or two is preferred (no need to offer "oppose" votes obviously, it's one or the other). I'm not trying to draw out the discussion here (believe me) but I think we need a sense of where people stand given that the first poll did not produce unambiguous results. Let's do our best to come to a quick decision here so we can move on to other issues - please comment below.-- Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 06:00, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
For many years, the Bureau of Narcotics and Dangerous Drugs (now DEA) wanted to have Manuel Noriega arrested for drug trafficking, but instead George Bush, Sr. kept him on the CIA payroll. For more than a decade, thousands of tons of cocaine poured onto the streets of America through the Panama Canal while the US government looked the other way. This destroyed the stability of millions of American families, and the repercussions to our society are still being felt today. ( Lenerd ( talk) 18:41, 8 August 2008 (UTC))
Jeb Bush's friend Orlando Bosch is a terrorist accused of blowing up an airplane killing 76 people in Cuba, but George Bush, Sr. thought so much of him that he gave him a Presidential Pardon. ( Lenerd ( talk) 18:42, 8 August 2008 (UTC))
Later in 1981, Bonzo authored $19 million for the C.I.A. to form and fund a counterrevolutionary army - the Contras - to overthrow the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua. His meddling in both countries accomplished its objective: covert war in Central America.
December 10,1981: Units of the Atlacatl Battalion, funded and trained by the U.S., arrived at the Salvadoran village of El Mozote searching for rebels. They found only refugees.
¡FunFact!: The U.S. Army trained officers of the Atlacatl Battalion at the infamous School of the Americas (S.O.A.). Many S.O.A. graduates went on to commit atrocities throughout Latin America. Because of citizen protests, the U.S. government shut down S.O.A. in 2000 and reopened it in January 2001 as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation.
The Thistle: On December 17, 1981 the Atlacatl Battalion ordered the people of El Mozote out into the streets. They then sent the women and children back to their houses and all the men in the village to the church where they began executing and decapitating the men. Next, the separated the women from the children and killed both groups in the same fashion.
Days later, the F.M.L.N. discovered the carnage. On December 24, 1981, their rebel radio reported the massacre.
The F.M.L.N. contacted New York Times reporter Raymond Bonner and took him and Photographer Susan Meiselas to the site. Bonner interviewed the sole survivor Rufina Amaya who hid in thorn bushes until the soldiers left. She found the entire village dead (at least 1000 civilians), including her husband and four children.
On January 17, 1982 Bonner's story appeared in the New York Times.
To keep aid flowing, Congress required Bonzo to certify that El Salvador was improving its human rights record. After Bonner's report, he did. "The Salvadoran government is making a concerted and significant effort to comply with internationally recognized human rights."~ Bonzo
Assistant Secretary of State for Human Rights Elliot Abrams denounced reports of the massacre at El Mozote as Fiction. "This is nothing but communist propaganda."~ Elliot Abrams
Bowing to pressure from the White House, The Times pulled Bonner off the story. The civil war in El Salvador ended in 1992. A truth commission sent forensic scientists to El Mozote.
It was all true.
It was policy.
By the time of the El Mozote Massacre, Bonzo and Casey were already planning the overthrow of Nicaragua's Sandinista government. The C.I.A. organized Somoza's National Guard into a counter-revolutionary force. Because of the Nicaraguan people's hate for the National Guard the decided to base them next door in Honduras. From Honduras, a very poor country dominated by the United States, the Contras moved across the border...
...blowing up bridges...
...burning schools...
...destroying farm co-ops...
...and killing people in cold blood.
Bonzo then imposed a trade embargo and cut off all international loans to the Sandinista state. Casey egged on the Contras to make bolder attacks.
September 8, 1983: A twin-engine Cessna carrying two 500-pound bombs flew low over the Managua airport. Shot down by airport defense it crashed into the airport.
Hours later, U.S. Senators Gary Hart and William Cohen arrived on a fact-finding mission. When reporters asked if it was a C.I.A. attack, Cohen stated that, "The C.I.A. isn't that dumb." Once he was shown a case of C.I.A. documents found in the wreckage he was convinced that U.S. Intelligence was indeed, that dumb. Despite his discovery, Congress did nothing. Casey ordered more attacks.
October 11, 1983, Bay of Corinto, Nicaragua: The Contras blew up oil storage tanks.
October 14, 1983, Port of Sandino: An oil platform was attacked. Exxon announced that it was too dangerous to bring in more tankers. The Contras took the credit.
To top it off, the C.I.A. mined the harbors. When a British ship struck a mine Congress finally had enough and rejected the Administration's request for and additional $21 million in Contra aid.
Lenerd ( talk) 18:48, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
Seymour Hersh has claimed that the U.S. government has been supporting PEJAK, the Iranian branch of the PKK. In an interview with the Daily Telegraph, the head of the PKK's militant arm, Murat Karayilan, claimed that Iran attempted to recruit the PKK to attack coalition forces, adding that Kurdish guerrillas have launched a clandestine war in north-western Iran, ambushing Iranian troops. The Chief of the Turkish General Staff, General Yaşar Büyükanıt stated that even though the international struggle had been discussed on every platform and even though organizations such as the UN, NATO, EU make statements of serious commitment, to this day the necessary measures had not been taken. Büyükanıt continued:
On the contrary, this conduct on one side has encouraged the terrorists, on the other side it assisted in widening their [the terrorists] activities. The most distressful part of it is that many of the European countries being a member of NATO, an organization that had announced that terrorism was the greatest threat to itself.
Sedat Laciner, of the Turkish think tank ISRO, says that US support of the PKK undermines the US war on terrorism.
A former militant, who recently had turned himself in to the Turkish police, claimed that the weapons for PKK in the north of Iraq were provided by US armoured vehicles.
Lenerd (
talk)
18:52, 8 August 2008 (UTC)
It seems to me that there is a section missing on the US Courts rulings on the "political crimes defense" or " political offense exception" as successfully used by some members of the IRA, Eg Quinn v. Robinson (M. Cherif Bassiouni, Legal Responses to International Terrorism, page ~194; Page 17, NORTHERN IRELAND: TP , T , S 11 (PDF) Queen's University Belfast School of Law).
This has been used in US courts post 9/11 see this report (March 10, 2005) "Under Quinn, the majority explained, an offense committed in connection with a political 'uprising' falls under the exception if its 'causally or ideologically' related to that event. In so holding, the court implicitly rejected Trott’s conclusion that the political exception will never apply to the killing of an innocent bystander, at least in a country where democratic means of change are available." Personally I can't see a US government being very sympathetic to a foreign court that accepted such a defense by a person who attacked US citizen!
On the other side of the same coin is the US law allowing the kidnapping of a person from a country that does not recognize that the US has such a right (see David Leppard US says it has right to kidnap British citizens, Sunday Times December 2, 2007. "Alun Jones QC, representing the US government ... [said in a British court] 'If you kidnap a person outside the United States and you bring him there, the court has no jurisdiction to refuse — it goes back to bounty hunting days in the 1860s.'"
From the point of view of another state, both of these legal positions could be seen as supporting terrorism, as would the U.S. government towards any state that invoked such arguments to refuse extradition to terrorists ("political offense exception") or kidnapped U.S. citizens from the U.S. and then tried them under the laws of a foreign state. -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 11:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Luis Posada is a
Cuban-born
Venezuelan and a former CIA operative. He has been accused of a string of terrorist bombings, including that of
Cubana Flight 455 in 1976, many years after leaving the CIA.
The edit above was reverted. Why? If Posada was in fact a "CIA operative" in 1976, then this fact should be directly noted and should not be implied. If Posada was not known to be employed by the CIA in 1976, then this fact is critical to avoiding a violation of WP:NPOV. So which is it, do we have a reliable source that he was a "CIA operative" in 1976 - or not? If we do not, is there any objection to informing the Reader of this critical fact? Do we all agree that the present text is a NPOV violation?
Note that the question above is a policy and is not a content question. This section is for discussion of this question in regard to NPOV, the section immediately above for Posada-related content issues. Raggz ( talk) 04:52, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
It's important to clarify with non-partisan sources whether he was ever a CIA operative and whether he was at the time he was supposed to carry out these attacks. If he was merely a former CIA operative then I'm not sure how that's US sponsored state terrorism. John Smith's ( talk) 15:51, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
The following text is being deleted because it is irrelevant to the topiv: "A secret plan, Operation Northwoods, was approved by the the Pentagon and Joint Chiefs of Staff and submitted for action to Robert McNamara[21] then Secretary of Defense. This plan included acts of violence on U.S. soil or against U.S. interests, such as plans to kill innocent people and commit acts of terrorism in U.S. cities; blowing up a U.S. ship, and contemplated causing U.S. military casualties, writing: "We could blow up a U.S. ship in Guantanamo Bay and blame Cuba," and, "The U.S. could follow up with an air/sea rescue operation covered by U.S. fighters 'evacuate' remaining members of the non-existent crew. Casualty lists in U.S. newspapers would cause a helpful wave of national indignation." The plan was rejected by the Kennedy administration after the Bay of Pigs Invasion.[22][23]"
Acts by governments can be state terrorism, but discussions and plans cannot be. Even if they were such, sixty year old plans are too irrel;evant for inclusion. Raggz ( talk) 06:46, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Arno Mayer, Emeritus Professor of History at Princeton University, has stated that "since 1947 America has been the chief and pioneering perpetrator of 'preemptive' state terror, exclusively in the Third World and therefore widely dissembled."[4] Noam Chomsky also argues that "Washington is the center of global state terrorism and has been for years."[5] Chomsky has characterized the tactics used by agents of the U.S. government and their proxies in their execution of U.S. foreign policy — in such countries as Nicaragua — as a form of terrorism and has also described the U.S as "a leading terrorist state."[6]
After President George W. Bush began using the term "War on Terrorism", Chomsky stated in an interview:[6][7]
The U.S. is officially committed to what is called "low-intensity warfare"... If you read the definition of low-intensity conflict in army manuals and compare it with official definitions of "terrorism" in army manuals, or the U.S. Code, you find they're almost the same.''
The section above is presently eligible for an NPOV deletion. It has a single POV. I'm not inclined to work on bringing it into compliance. Who is? If no one wants to, I will delete it. As it says, it only includes unsupported allegations anyway...07:29, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
In April 2007, CNN reported that the US military and the International Committee of the Red Cross were protecting the People's Mujahedin of Iran, with the US army regularly escorting PMOI supply runs between Baghdad and its base, Camp Ashraf.[74] The PMOI have been designated as a terrorist organization by the United States (since 1997), Canada, and Iran.[75][76] According to the Wall Street Journal[77] "senior diplomats in the Clinton administration say the PMOI figured prominently as a bargaining chip in a bridge-building effort with Tehran." The PMOI is also on the European Union's blacklist of terrorist organizations, which lists 28 organizations, since 2002.[78] The enlistments included: Foreign Terrorist Organization by the United States in 1997 under the Immigration and Nationality Act, and again in 2001 pursuant to section 1(b) of Executive Order 13224; as well as by the European Union (EU) in 2002.[79] Its bank accounts were frozen in 2002 after the September 11 attacks and a call by the EU to block terrorist organizations' funding. However, the European Court of Justice has overturned this in December 2006 and has criticized the lack of "transparency" with which the blacklist is composed.[80] However, the Council of the EU declared on 2007-01-30 that it would maintain the organization on the blacklist.[81][82] The EU-freezing of funds was lifted on 2006-12-12 by the European Court of First Instance.[83] In 2003 the US State Department included the NCRI on the blacklist, under Executive Order 13224.[84]
According to a 2003 article by the New York Times, the US 1997 proscription of the group on the terrorist blacklist was done as "a goodwill gesture toward Iran's newly elected reform-minded president, Mohammad Khatami" (succeeded in 2005 by the more conservative Mahmoud Ahmadinejad).[85] In 2002, 150 members of the United States Congress signed a letter calling for the lifting of this designation.[86] The PMOI have also tried to have the designation removed through several court cases in the U.S. The PMOI has now lost three appeals (1999, 2001 and 2003) to the US government to be removed from the list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations, and its terrorist status was reaffirmed each time. The PMOI has continued to protest worldwide against its listing, with the overt support of some US political figures.[87][88]
Past supporters of the PMOI have included Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-CO), Rep. Bob Filner, (D-CA), and Sen. Kit Bond (R-MO), and former Attorney General John Ashcroft, "who became involved with the [PMOI] while a Republican senator from Missouri."[89][90] In 2000, 200 U.S. Congress members signed a statement endorsing the organization's cause.[91]
I propose to delete the section above because there is no allegation of US state terrorism, and no reliable source that claims this. What is alleged is that the US escorts an Iranian terrorist group within Iraq. This is not terrorism. Raggz ( talk) 08:19, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Richard Falk, Professor Emeritus of International Law and Practice at Princeton, has argued that the U.S. and other first-world states, as well as mainstream mass media institutions, have obfuscated the true character and scope of terrorism, promulgating a one-sided view from the standpoint of first-world privilege. He has said that "if 'terrorism' as a term of moral and legal opprobrium is to be used at all, then it should apply to violence deliberately targeting civilians, whether committed by state actors or their non-state enemies."[9][10] Moreover, Falk argues that the repudiation of authentic non-state terrorism is insufficient as a strategy for mitigating it, writing that "we must also illuminate the character of terrorism, and its true scope... The propagandists of the modern state conceal its reliance on terrorism and associate it exclusively with Third World revolutionaries and their leftist sympathizers in the industrial countries."[11]
The section above is presently eligible for an NPOV deletion. It has a single POV. I'm not inclined to work on bringing it into compliance. Who is? If no one wants to, I will delete it. As it says, it only includes unsupported allegations anyway Raggz ( talk) 07:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
The CIA has been accused of being the perpetrator of a 1985 Beirut car bombing which killed 81 people. The bombing was apparently an assassination attempt on an Islamic cleric, Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah.[94] The bombing, known as the Bir bombing after Bir el-Abed, the impoverished Beirut neighborhood in which it had occurred, was reported by the New York Times to have caused a "massive" explosion "even by local standards," killing 81 people, and wounding more than 200.[95] Investigative journalist Bob Woodward stated that the CIA was funded by the Saudi Arabian government to arrange the bombing.[96][94] Fadlallah himself also claims to have evidence that the CIA was behind the attack and that the Saudis paid $3 million.[97]
The U.S. National Security Advisor Robert McFarlane admitted that those responsible for the bomb may have had American training, but that they were "rogue operative(s)" and the CIA in no way sanctioned or supported the attack.[98] Roger Morris writes in the Asia Times that the next day, a notice hung over the devastated area where families were still digging the bodies of relatives out of the rubble. It read: "Made in the USA". The terrorist strike on Bir el-Abed is seen as a product of U.S. covert policy in Lebanon. Agreeing with the proposals of CIA director William Casey, president Ronald Reagan sanctioned the Bir attack in retaliation for the truck-bombing of the U.S. Marine Corps barracks at Beirut airport in October 1983, which, Roger Morris alleges, in turn had been a reprisal for earlier U.S. acts of intervention and diplomatic dealings in Lebanon's civil war that had resulted in hundreds of Lebanese and Palestinian lives. After CIA operatives had repeatedly failed to arrange Casey's car-bombing, the CIA allegedly "farmed out" the operation to agents of its longtime Lebanese client, the Phalange, a Maronite Christian, anti-Islamic militia.[95] Others allege the 1984 Bombing of the U.S. Embassy annex northeast of Beirut as the motivating factor.[98]
The section above requires immediate deletion for its NPOV violations. It does make supportable claims and could be salvaged by someone willing to bring the language and perspective into NPOV compliance. Does anyone want to undertake this? I will just delete it if no one wants to salvage it. Raggz ( talk) 08:38, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Allegations of harboring terrorists ...The U.S. has also been criticized for failing to condemn Panama's pardoning of the alleged terrorists Guillermo and Ignacio Novo Sampoll, Pedro Remon, and Gaspar Jimenez, instead allowing them to walk free on U.S. streets.[21] Claudia Furiati has suggested Sampol was linked to President Kennedy's assassination and plans to kill President Castro.[34]
I expect to delete the above. Whom the President of Panama decides to pardon is not the business of the US. If the men have comitted no crimes, why shouldn't they "walk free"? Is the failure of the US to interfer in Panama's business really state terrorism? Raggz ( talk) 09:02, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
This source is owned by the Cuban Government, which has formally renounced freedom of the press. Does anyone object to treating this source as being the Cuban Government, a primary source, and not a journalistic source. See also WP:REDFLAG. Raggz ( talk) 08:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Common Dreams is an advocacy organization and is not a reliable source with fact checking. I suggest that we do not use citations from this source.
From their site: "Common Dreams: "Common Dreams is a national non-profit citizens' organization working to bring progressive Americans together to promote progressive visions for America's future. We are committed to being on the cutting-edge of using the internet as a political organizing tool - and creating new models for internet activism. Raggz ( talk) 08:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm not too bothered about this kind of article as a whole (although this one covers some interesting material, it's too much of a POV magnet really and it's hard to avoid them becoming political polemics). However given that it is here, the deletions proposed above are not acceptable. They appear to fall into two broad categories:
1) Deleting references to comments by Chomsky, Falk etc on the basis of NPOV is nonsensical. They are here because they are well-known academics/activists articulating some of the allegations. If there is a genuine issue with balance, this should be resolved by adding counter-comments or rebuttals (a brief read suggests there are plenty of these as it is)
2) Deleting sections that refer to US support for terror groups eg the MKO, is also absurd given the scope of this article as defined in the lead, and the fact that there is no specific agreed definition of "state terrorism" in any event (ie who says it has to involve direct state action?) Perhaps the article itself might be renamed to avoid any confusion (eg to something discussing "involvement in" or "support for" terrorism or "state-sponsored" terrorism).
More broadly the habit of putting a note on a talk page saying "I propose deleting .." as if prepared to enter into discussion about it, but then just unilaterally deleting the material pretty shortly afterwards anyway before getting any response is hardly best editing practice
-- Nickhh ( talk) 09:08, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
There are a number of WP policies, and you correctly suggest that these authors may be cited. You have raised your strawman and now have defeated it, but you have yet to address the issue I raise. [[Wp:npov] is a policy that requires more NPOV balance than these sections now offer. You could add a dozen very notable authors of like opinions, but all that this would do is to make the NPOV problem worse. As an editor, it is required that I either delete NPOV violations OR correct them. I choose to delete. I also choose to discuss this here, so that other editors have the chance to consider and discuss this.
As an editor, you also have the option to (1) debate that there exists NPOV balance, or (2) to edit the text until it is there, or (3) to delete it yourself. Is there a fourth option? Assigning an editing assignment to me is not your fourth option. So what am I missing? Raggz ( talk) 23:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
RPOD said: "My opinion, See below - it is not appropriate to remove sourced material from notable figures in the field under some misinterpreted application of NPOV."
Is there NPOV balance - or not? Please, a direct answer, please? Raggz ( talk) 04:27, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
User:Raggz we are not talking about the law of war, as the article already mentioned ( US says it has right to kidnap British citizens, Sunday Times December 2, 2007.) says:
The admission will alarm the British business community after the case of the so-called NatWest Three, bankers who were extradited to America on fraud charges. More than a dozen other British executives, including senior managers at British Airways and BAE Systems, are under investigation by the US authorities and could face criminal charges in America.
Until now it was commonly assumed that US law permitted kidnapping only in the “extraordinary rendition” of terrorist suspects.
The American government has for the first time made it clear in a British court that the law applies to anyone, British or otherwise, suspected of a crime by Washington.
Can you imagine the political reaction in the U.S. if another country was to kidnap an American citizen from a city street in America, bundle them into a private plane and fly them to another country to stand trial for a white collar crime, that was not a white collar crime in the U.S? -- Philip Baird Shearer ( talk) 21:56, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
The title should be changed to "Allegations of state terrorism AGAINST the United States", "Allegations of state terrorism by the United States" suggests US allegations against Iran or Korea to me. Research Method ( talk) 00:33, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
In the Opposing views section, this sentence "Empirical studies (see democide which has been argued to be equivalent to state terrorism[101]) have found that democracies, including the United States, have killed much fewer civilians than dictatorships.[102][103]"
Doesn't seem to be at all related to the topic of whether or not the US has perpetrated state terrorism. Normally I would just remove it, but this article is controversial enough that I would like to give others a chance to confirm this. Does anyone see how it fits into the article? TrogdorPolitiks ( talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 21:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC).
I totally agree for it to be removed, its like saying "Hey our crimes are not so bad compared to "dictatorships""
I'm not entirely sure how to make a citation, but some of the counterpoints from Atomic_bombings_of_Japan_as_a_form_of_state_terrorism should be copied over to this section to neutralize the point of view. This whole article is generally WP:POV but that's the most striking example of it. The issue of using nuclear weapons is on the whole a controversial topic. Even limiting it to whether the nukes used against Japan can be defined as terrorism has several points of view.
Also the "Opposing Viewpoints" section is not the right way to go about balancing the POV issue for the article. Each section should be balanced to the point of WP:NPOV. This is a fairly radical topic so stating the cases as if there was consensus in the world that these things can be considered terrorism is inherently POV. 64.132.80.134 ( talk) 23:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand how the section on the PMOI relates to the article's subject. There's a single sentence at the beginning of the paragraph that indicates the US is protecting the group. The rest of the section details US efforts to keep the group listed as a terrorist entity and curtail it's activities. Yes, there are US politicians and opinion writers who think the group should be used against Iran. But the fact is that they haven't committed an attack on Iran (or anywhere else for that matter) since 2003. I'd propose removing the whole paragraph as unrelated. Chris (complaints)• (contribs) 12:48, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
Link to a segment in which Bill Moyers explicitly states that US actions in Vietnam and Iraq were state terrorism:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/blog/2009/01/bill_moyers_reflects_on_middle.html
I'm not an active editor on this page. But this may be of use and is certainly relevant. 76.229.176.118 ( talk) 20:07, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Why are there no references to the killings in Pakistan and Syria? Syria has publicaly accused the US of terrorism http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7693583.stm