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This is suppose to be an encyclopedia. Why are people who are suppose to know better erasing pages to redirect them? This is a valid page. Make it better if you don't like it, but stop erasing them!
I am glad to know Alec Baldwin's position on abortion I realize the majority of people assume that the word choice automatically means the abortion issue but isn't the term choice to general to apply to one specific issue. i mean should this page be redirect to say [[Pro choice (abortion issue)] or something like that
The last sentence in the first paragraph violates NPOV. "right of women to choose what to do with their bodies" doesn't describe the Pro-Choice movement's actual political goals so much as it describes the reasoning behind their beliefs. IOW, Pro-Choice refers to advocating the legality of abortion, and "allowing women to choose what to do with their bodies" is the reason given for this advocacy. To include this phrase in the definition of Pro-Choice without noting that it is what they believe the question of legalization of abortion concerns is to write from the Pro-Choice perspective. On the Pro-Life page, the reasoning behind the Pro-Life position (the right to life of human beings) is rightly listed as their belief, rather than as the definition itself. If the Pro-Life article were written like the Pro-Choice article, it would say "Pro-Lifers are opposed to the decriminalization of abortion, and they defend the right to life of human beings". Just as that would be obviously biased, the equivalent Pro-Choice sentance is also biased.
I kindly tried to talk above the fray to User:Neutrality and sent this message. He erased it and did not respond. He ceratinly should never be an administrator.
I believe that Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are legitimate articles. If you want to re-direct the pages, why don't you do it officially and we can have a vote? There was no reason for a re-direct since the pages both had links to Morality and legality of abortion. Since you obviously have nothing to add to the pages I would thank you to keep from re-direcing them until the time there is a vote to remove the pages to re-directs. Timothy001 19:13, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Agree neutrality does not really believe in NPOV, and is a political hack. -- NERD42 EMAIL TALK H2G2 UNCYC NEWS 18:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, this has got to be discussed. Should this be an article or a redirect? Please post your views here, with reasons, rather than just keep changing this page about. Darksun 19:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In the United States, the Democratic Party tends to be more "Pro-Choice" than the Republican Party.
While this is most likely true, I have two concerns. Number one, this is a generalisation despite the veiled conditional "tends." Secondly, I don't think "pro-choice" is an exclusively American term despite the fact it has its origins here. Referring to America political parties and no others seems Americo-centric, which we try to stray from in respects to neutrality. Any thoughts? -- Thorns Among Our Leaves 21:16, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
After glancing at the article, this article does indeed have a biased lean... Can we get a clean up and some more info? An issue like this deserves more than two sections. -- HoO8MyRiCe
There's no "tends" about it. The Democratic Party, in its platform, expresses directly its commitment to being pro-choice. Likewise, the Republican party in their platform expresses directly that it is pro-life. Smokingmaenad 23:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Now, I'm pro-choice, personally. But I don't see any problem with laws to ensure that women know what they're getting into and what their options are. (And I think the thing about 'not trusting physicians' or whatnot is bullsh*t, because it's not just an ordinary surgical procedure -- there's two lives at stake, one of which may be ended or prevented from occurring, depending on how you look at it, but which the doctor may not consider as 'living'.) Anyway, should the above paragraph be a little less absolute? Or do I not count because I'm just an armchair pro-choicer and not a 'pro-choice activist'? (Serious question, BTW.) -- Wisq 15:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
It's not a proper noun, most in-text hits seem to be lowercase, and the WP manual of style discourages capitalizing the letter after the hyphen in hyphenated words. Most inbound links are looking for l/c, as well. Niteowlneils 02:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Move is done! Talrias ( t | e | c) 10:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Neutrality moved this page from pro-choice to abortion-rights movement on August 28, 2005, without any discussion here. I have reverted the move for consistency with the title of the pro-life article. Note that pro-life and anti-abortion movement are separate articles. One possibility to consider is that pro-choice and abortion-rights movement be separate articles, with pro-choice focusing on the usage (including both support and criticism) of the term "pro-choice," and abortion-rights movement focusing on the subject indicated by its title. — Lowellian ( reply) 06:00, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Just a reader here, but I noticed that this article repeats itself several times. I'm not entirely sure how to go about cleaning it up a little without rewriting the whole thing, which is frankly effort I can't put forth at the moment. Thought I'd call attention to it. --K.M.
I added {{ Cleanup}} to the page, because I feel this has a lot of doubled uses, and isn't really that helpful as a resource in its current form. I'll get back to it when I can, but please feel free to cleanup in the meantime. - Mys e ku rity ( have you seen this?) 01:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Pro-choice → Pro-abortion – not my request, I'm just making this section so I can vote oppose. Rhobite 20:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Jonathunder 20:57, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
'Pro-choice' is, probably, a more commonly-used term than 'pro-abortion': see [1] for the Google test. However, a case might be made for a move under the naming conventions for the title 'pro-abortion' being less ambiguous (although whether 'what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize' trumps ambiguity I don't know). (It's also arguably more NPOV.) -- Nick Boalch ?!? 22:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
From the intro:
...should be able to choose on issues relating to the life or death of themselves or any part of their body.
So - they're pro-amputation? This statement makes no sense - the life or death of themselves, yes, but any part of their body, no.....if this is an attempt to describe the fetus, say as much - as it stands, it seems a bit like weasel wording to me. DonaNobisPacem 17:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Whilst we are all aware that pro-life/pro-choice centres mainly about the issue of abortion, recent US case also indicates a similar divide over issues such as advance directives to restrict commencement of treatment/feeding or its withdrawal, thus leading to death of a patient. There are other "rights issues", some of which seem less contentious in the UK, either not having gathered much media or political commentary, or being addressed through doctor's requirement to only treat competent adults with expressed consent (even if absence of treatment causes patient's death) and seek social services or the court's intervention if concerns for a child occurs. The two movements appear to be more active in the USA and seems in essence to be about "rights of individual" against "right to life" or "life is precious".
To try and clarify where the two groups take a wider position on various other medico-ethical issues, I present below some issues. In essence I wonder if there are broader movements to which pro-life/pro-choice views over abortion belong to - what I might term religious/conservative vs secular/liberal movements re human rights & consent. I do not seek debate about the specific points' pros or cons, just if people with awareness of the spectrums within both pro-choice & pro-life could indicate where a greater or lesser part of the "broad" movements have particular concerns (vs. individuals' concerns). Please just indicate whether pro-choice/pro-life have in general strong support, general sympathy, take no overall group stance, broadly disapprove or strongly object:
David Ruben Talk 02:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The "Category:Pro-choice celebrities" belongs in the see also section, but it keeps getting transfered to the categories section. Anyone know how to fix it?
I overhauled this article only to have it reverted. So I am seeking consensus about my changes. You can view a comparison here. You'll notice that I did the same things for Pro-life.
First of all, "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are adjectives, not nouns! The first sentence of each article says that "Pro-choice is a political movement...". No, it's not. It's a term that describes a political movement or idea.
Second, the soliloquy about informed consent is entirely misplaced. In attempting to justify pro-choice opposition to informed consent laws, it only serves to suggest a pro-choice POV and undermine the credibility of the article. You can MENTION informed consent laws in the context of a list of restrictions that pro-choicers oppose (as I tried to do), but otherwise keep that debate out of the article. Plus, even if you want to cover the debate, you only chose to represent one side!
Third, saying that restrictions "impede a woman's choice" is highly POV. That can be toned down, for example, to "limit the right to abortion."
Fourth, the introductory monologue about how pro-choicers don't like being called "pro-abortion" is also misplaced. It belongs in the "Term controversy" section. But since it is highly suggestive of a pro-choice POV (by going on and on about the justification for calling oneself "pro-choice" unbalanced by a counterargument), I simply deleted it and figured the "Term controversy" section would suffice.
Fifth, this paragraph is highly suggestive of POV: "People who identify as pro-choice fall along a spectrum of political opinion, ranging from the view that all abortions should be legal, to the view that abortions should only be legal until a certain date in the progression of the pregnancy (such as the third trimester, which is the approximate gestational age at which a fetus can survive outside of a woman's body)." The parenthetical comment about viability (without actually mentioning viability, because it is in fact FAR earlier than the third trimester) is irrelevant to the topic of the sentence and the topic of the paragraph. It is also horrible from a stylistic POV.
Sixth, referencing Roe v. Wade's "trimester" framework is kind of silly without mentioning that Planned Parenthood v. Casey dispensed with that framework. "In its 1973 landmark case of Roe v. Wade" is too pedestrian; how about "In its landmark 1973 case, Roe v. Wade"?
Seventh, "people who believe the opposite view" is clunky and wordy. How about "opponents of abortion"? Or "pro-lifers"?
Eighth, "Within that term also exists a spectrum of political opinion". That is horrible writing. How about "Pro-lifers also hold diverse opinions"?
Ninth, the consistent framing of the abortion issue in this article in terms of a hypothetical "woman" serves to advance a pro-choice POV. It personalizes the issue and makes it emotional: "A woman's health", "a woman's right", "the uterus of a woman" instead of "health risks", "abortion rights", "uterus". Which reflects a more NPOV? The latter.
In sum, this article is a mess (grammatically and content-wise) and should be overhauled along the lines I attempted here. I am asking for a consensus on this. (And I'm doing the same thing over at Pro-life.) Thanks, -- Hyphen5 01:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I support Hyphen's attempts to have this article comply with guidelines. {{POV|date=March 2008}} and {{Original research|date=March 2008}} tags are a serious matter. Do not remove them while issues are under discussion. -- WikiCats 02:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeez, I was reading the edit history wrong (I'm used to seeing the newer edits on the right side). I was thinking "Hmm... this does seem like an improvement, what is the fuss about". But when I realized that you are not Joelr31, I was initially shocked by the amount of blanking. But you are right about informed consent discussion not belonging in the first paragraph (move it perhaps?) I don't know why you blanked the part about fetal deformities. #6, #8 make sense. I would say go right ahead on some of your minor changes, and for bigger POV issues and blanking, flesh it out here on the talk page. And thank you for coming to the talk page after noticing other editors' concern over your changes.-- Andrew c 04:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
A few comments. The hard numbering is that of the original. 2) I think you are dead wrong here. Pro-choice and pro-life do not refer only to abortion. Informed consent is an important part of it. It's neither a "soliliquy" or "one-sided", just needs wikifying. 3) You suggest replacing "impede a woman's choice" with "limit the right to abortion." I think your suggestion is worse. I suggest "impede a woman's right to chose". There is nothing POV about that. Restrictions literally do prevent people from being able to chose. If you have a choice between A, B, and C, and C is restricted, your choice has been restricted. 4) You were wrong to delete this section. It think a brief intro to the terms is warranted in the intro, but your deletion resulted in a net loss of information. It is notable that pro-life people dislike being called anti-choice in the same way pro-choice people dislike being called pro-abortion. That's why these terms are self-applied rather than externally-applied. 6) I agree, but remember this article has to cover history as well as the present state of affairs. 7) "opponents of the pro-choice movement" would be better as calling them anything else probably risks POV problems (see my comments on #4). 8) I don't think your rewrite is an improvement here: try again. 9) You are dead wrong here again. "Abortion rights" is just as POV as "a woman's right". Please don't make any of your changes until some consensus emerges here. savidan (talk) (e@) 07:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
We can't please everyone all the time. I'm happy with the current text, even though it displeases you. It is quite literally correct, so you don't have an objective objection. Alienus 18:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes. You can't have "impede a woman's choice". --
WikiCats
11:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Goodandevil noted this New York Times story over at Talk:Pro-life: The Abortion-Rights Side Invokes God, Too. Since religious affiliation was discussed over at Pro-life, I think it's only fair that we add a paragraph about pro-choicers' religious affiliations. -- Hyphen5 17:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I found this little gem pro-abortion. I like how there is a concluding sentence ;) It used to redirect here. I was hoping the editors here could either rework it, or agree to redirect it again. There isn't much content to merge, because the term is discussed a little already in the "Term controversy" section. What do you think?-- Andrew c 04:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I would think that articles entitled either pro-abortion or anti-abortion should not exist on their own. Instead, they should be redirected to pro-choice and pro-life, respectively. Is there anyone who can put forth an argument against this suggestion? Alienus 07:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not one of those people who decry abortion as a necessary evil. I'm not one of those self-righteous misogynists who would pass judgement on pro-choicers, pregnant women, or women who chose to abort. I don't hate abortion. I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful because it frees women from unwanted pregnancies, it keeps women from enduring the risks and complications that can arise from pregnancy, and it gives them say over when they will have children. If ever. So I will not give the whinging line, 'Oh, abortion is horrible, but I guess I'll have to allow it.'
— "Sheelzebub", Pinko Feminist Hellcat blog
These have become a real mess with all the back-and-forth editing as of late, so I went ahead and cleaned them up. Feel free to comment here. Alienus 18:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
No, a revert is what you did right now. Also, a revert is what I will be doing as soon as it's convenient to do so. The change that you are trying to remove is called a cleanup because it cleans up a lot of messy nonsense and repetition. Now, if you have any specific suggestions, I'd like to hear them. If you just want to revert, then you're edit-warring instead of doing your job as an editor. Alienus 19:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Editors of this page may want to comment at Talk:Anti-abortion_movement#RfC:__Merger_of_article_with_Pro-Choice_and_Pro-Life.. Thanks. DonaNobisPacem 21:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is how it stands now:
And this is what it was:
I find the current wording problematic for a number of reasons. The second sentence is a gramatical nightmare. The clauses don't follow form: "as when.." "finds.." "is.." "if..". Here is one idea:
Still not perfect. We need to make it clear what we are trying to convey in the 2nd paragraph. What do others think?-- Andrew c 23:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
You have not read enough of the pro-choice literature - that is the exact belief of the pro-choice movement. During the eighties, when China was vigorously enforcing the one child limit, this philosophy was expressed over and over again. Just stop and think about it - choice refers to the choice the individual is making. It means that the individual, not the government. There is NO OTHER interpretation than that one. I would say it's an equally liberal reasoning.
I am just absolutely flabbergasted. I'd love to know what you think "pro-choice" means. Seriously.
I've been involved with the pro-choice movement since the early eighties. If you stop and think about it, it will become abundantly clear and Roe V Wade will actually make a lot more sense to you. This is the basic philosophy of the choice movement. I think it should be put back. I'm not gonna get in an edit war but in order for people to understand pro-choice rhetoric, that explanation needs to be in place, and it should upfront as it is the essential point of view. Smokingmaenad 03:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Your wish is my command:)
WASHINGTON – Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., long an outspoken advocate of abortion on demand in the U.S., is speaking out against the forced abortion policies of China, a direct result of Beijing's strict limits on the number of children parents may bring into the world.
Clinton wrote a letter to President Bush urging him to address the human rights violations occurring in China when he travels there next week. The first issue on the list was forced abortion. She says the Chinese government is using "psychological and economic pressure and threats to force women to terminate pregnancies," according to the New York Sun. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47367
We hear about state forced abortions in China and in other countries and we gasp in disbelief! We hear about baby girls being put to death because girls are not valued and respected. We read stories about women having their feet bound, being forced into submission, and being beaten if they do not comply. Yet, if the landmark US Supreme Court Roe v Wade decision legalizing abortion is overturned, we are but one step away from this manner of government intervention. After all, any government that prohibits abortion has also the power to force it. http://www.nownys.com/presmessage.html
In the legal realm, CFFC favors laws on abortion that support the right of women to make the decision of whether or not to have an abortion with minimal state involvement. Because we believe abortion is a moral matter on which one can legitimately have different views, we think it is the responsibility of the state to protect the right to choose, but not to make the decision for women. We are as opposed to forced abortions, such as those which take place in China, as we are to forced pregnancy as preached by the church. http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/news/op-eds/2001/20011001theplaceforindividualconscience.asp
http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=2611 The report included accounts of rampant trafficking of minors from the Philippines and China for forced prostitution, and of the importation of more than 100 Russian women for work in brothels.
Several foreign women garment workers stated that their employers ordered them to have abortions or face losing their jobs. Investigators concluded that garment manufacturers force abortions because they do not want to be liable for the extra cost of lost productivity during pregnancy and childbirth.
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/realchoice.shtml A fundamental misunderstanding of the abortion issue lies in the way people often refer to anti-choice and pro-choice as "two sides." In fact, the anti-choice are in favour of forced motherhood, and the opposite of that is forced abortion. We oppose both of these extremist positions.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/fem059.htm To be "pro-choice" means to work to eradicate situations where people are not offered choices - as in forced sterilization, forced abortion, infant mortality, forced motherhood, rape, domestic violence, hunger, and the objectification of women's bodies.
http://www.ppae.ab.ca/index.php?m=9&s=4 Abortion is one way to allow individuals to limit their childbearing voluntarily when a country's resources cannot support its population. Pro-choice people oppose forced abortion and support freedom of choice for all women in all countries.
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/realchoice.html In fact, the anti-choice are in favour of forced motherhood, and the opposite of that is forced abortion. We oppose both of these extremist positions.
Is this enough quotes to return my entry to the pro-choice page? 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Smokingmaenad 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding:
Pro-life presently has a foundations section. Why not create a similar section here and add libertarian, etc. views on what pro-choice is. I didn't have a problem with what was added which is why I didn't revert it. Anyway, I'll do the section work and editing if it seems OK.-- Pro-Lick 01:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with view-specific sections, but I'm not fine with the entire article being distorted. As it stands, though, we have a link to libertarian views on abortion, either here or on the main article. Among other things, libertarians often take pro-life positions. Alienus 01:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Alienus - the idea that the woman gets to make the choice either way is the essence of what pro-choice movement is about. There is no other interpretation. It may be a POV that is in sync with certain Libertarians but it is NOT derived from Libertarianism, but from the view that it is inappropriate for the government to be deciding either way what a pregnant woman should be required to do. By you claiming that it's simply a Libertarian POV, you are, in effect, arguing the pro-life postion that pro-choice is "pro-abortion". It is not. Pro-choice means that it's the woman's right to decide whether her body will carry a pregnancy to term.
Unfortunately, the NOW archives online don't get back far enough. But when the stories first came out about China forcing abortions one women, the pro-choice movement took a strong and active stance against that. Either way, it's the government making the choice - not the individual. The Nazis who banned abortion were anti-choice. The government made the decision as to what would happen. The Chinese were also anti-choice - they, too, chose rather than the woman.
If you don't know the history and philosophy behind this stuff, you shouldn't be making edits.
Now, please what were the other issues?
Smokingmaenad 02:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Alienus, I have no idea how that relates to what I'm saying. I'm pointing out, quite simply, that the choice refers to the individual not the government making the decision, and that the pro-choice movement supports the woman's right to choose either way. We aren't talking about crack - we're talking about pregnancy. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not is irrelevant. Smokingmaenad 05:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Can you substantiate the broad mainstream of the pro-choice movement feels that way?
I put the lead back in. In the paragraph above, I provide several quotes from people as diverse as Hillary Clinton and Frances Kissling, and Planned Parenthood taking an official stance against forced abortions. Smokingmaenad 06:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Smokingmaenad 15:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
If you take a look at Tay Sachs, you'll find this text:
Infants with Tay-Sachs disease appear to develop normally for the first six months of life. Then, as nerve cells become distended with fatty material, a relentless deterioration of mental and physical abilities occurs. The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs between 2-5 years
It's a death sentence and a horrible one at that. Fortunately, genetic counseling has made it very rare. Couples who are carriers either adopt or they test for Tay-Sachs during pregnancy and selectively abort. To knowingly bring a Tay Sachs baby into the world is an act of cruelty and maternal neglect. This is why I chose it as an example of the sort of pregnancy whose forced abortion might be justified. And, contrary to what you suggest, this is neither fascist nor in opposite to the pro-choice movement.
I've read as much Larry Niven as the next nerd, but I think your comments about mandatory organ donation miss the mark. The "pro-life" movement may well use such arguments if they're handy, but it's not what drives them. Fundamentally, the movement is anti-choice; it wants to prevent women from having control of their bodies. If they choose to have sex, they should suffer as many consequences as possible. That's why, despite claiming abortion is murder, the majority of anti-choicers make an exception when the woman didn't choose to have sex.
In the end, the libertarians support the Republicans, which makes them the enemies of the pro-choice movement. To the extent that libertarians even give lip service to the right to an abortion, their notion of rights doesn't extend to government protections, instead substituting as much justice as money can buy on the wonderfully free market. Alienus 17:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/34576/
That's an issue from the side of legality, but the reality is that the law serves the desires of those in power, not merely internal consistency. It may well be internally consistent to say that forbidding abortion means allowing forced organ donation, but that doesn't mean there's sufficient political might behind the latter to make it a reality. Paradoxically, what's going to fix the organ shortage in the long term is research into stem cells, which is often condemned by "pro-lifers".
I think your imgination here is limited, as shown by your characterization of such people as "fringe nuts". Everyone has their own choice, for their own bodies. Forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term can not be justified by the potential interests of the potential infant. However, forcing her to end a pregnancy that would create a nonviable infant is another matter entirely. It is protecting the actual interests of the actual person, not merely a potential one.
As it happens, I'm familiar with El Salvador. It's not a wonderful place to live, by any measure. It's at least as good a choice as Poland for use as an example of the opposite but likewise bad case of China. Alienus 17:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm familiar with a number of views, including libertarianism. However, if I were a libertarian myself then I'd agree with the notion that the tenets of choice are inviolate. I do not. Choice is a good thing, in that it generally lets us act to further our interests. However, it's those interests that are the highest goal. So, all things being equal, having free choice is best, but not all things are equal all the time, therefore not all choices should be free.
Consider the case where someone is unable to make decisions for themselves, so a guardian is given fiduciary responsibility to decide for them. A good example would be the parents of an infant deciding whether it should have surgery. In this case, there is the risk that the guardians will choose to serve their own interests at the cost of their wards', which is why society may need to get involved and override their decisions.
One way society gets involved is in forbidding parents from harming their children through abuse and neglect. The issue, then, is whether allowing a Tay Sachs child to be born can be distinguished from neglect. In other words, do children have a right to be born without a disease that dooms them? That's not a trivial issue and it's not something that can be satisfactorily resolved merely by invoking a priori principles.
Having said that, the principles people invoke do constrain the kinds of results possible. The ones that drive the pro-choice movement amount to a a liberal concern for the interests of people, seen both as individuals and members of society. In contrast, libertarians are concerned with their personal interests and feel that these are best served by denying any positive obligations towards others while asserting a right to choose anything. Interestingly, quite a few libertarians use this to oppose reproductive rights.
This is why I edited your text: to remove the suggestion that the pro-life movement is fundamentally libertarian. Pro-choice is not libertarian and libertarianism is, at best, only incidentally pro-choice, and neither consistently nor wholeheartedly so. Alienus 23:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Pro-lick, the article you cited is several pages long. Could you quote the sentence(s) in it that support the edit: "By this reasoning, China (which has, in the past, allegedly forced abortions and sterilizations on women and El Salvador (which protects from the moment of conception) are both equally anti-choice and therefore, are opposed with equal vehemence" i.e. that China and El S are opposed with equal vehemence by the pro-choice movement. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 19:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
IIRC, the NPOV tag was added when hyphen5's overhaul was reverted by Alienus. However, the majority of hyphen5's changes were eventually added, and most of the disputes have quieted down. Can we remove the NPOV tag? If users still have a problem with parts of this article, they can NPOV tag sections, and fact tag specific claims. I do not believe the whole article as it stands now deserves the tag. What do you say? (copied from pro-life)-- Andrew c 16:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
There are many citations that could be used to show growing suport for pro-life Democrats but try this one from Newsweek on for size. Briancua 01:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
There was a page on A woman's right to choose that was voted a long time ago to be merged here. I attempted to add a sentence about this slogan, but it was reverted. Could we decide where we want this information? Or is there no need to mention this slogan at all? Should we recreate the individual slogal page? Here is the content of the old article:
-- Andrew c 14:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering why the term anti-abortion is being used, but no the term anti-Life? People obviously do not like the word anti (Therefore being anti-anti) and it is only used to negatively portray pro-life. I think, either end the use of "anit-aborition" or use both "anti-abortion" and "anti-life" just as much. Am I right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.129.247.188 ( talk • contribs) .
An anonymous user recently suggested merging this page with reproductive rights; please go to
the RR talk page for discussion. Thank you!
rom
a
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talk to her ]
00:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about adding information and not removing information. I have been trying to add more information to the pro-abortion page regarding traditional usage and popular misusage, but it has been reverted. So, I'm posting the additional information here for the moment for discussion. The following is the proposed disambiguation page followed by short terminology and my 2 cents. aCute 03:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The term "pro-abortion" may be refering to the support for state-ordered abortions as a part of birth control policy in managing child birth rate and population size of a nation state.
The term "pro-abortion" is also a perjorative term for " pro-choice" in the context of womens's reproductive rights used by anti-abortion supporters.
{{ disambiguation}}
In the context of abortion,
aCute 03:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, the three policies--Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, and Pro-Abortion--are completely and mutually exclusive with vastly different aims--protecting fetuses, protecting reproductive rights, and managing population size respectively.
So logically, the pro-abortion page should NOT be redirecting to the pro-choice page.
Also, more research is still needed to improve the pro-abortion policy page to include the history of pro-abortion policy. That is the historical use of such policy to control the population of minorities and procreation of women with disabilities; as well as how present-day countries is using state abortion to control its own population size. Furthermore, a list of ancient scholars who supported such policies in the ancient times as well as a list of present-day countries (and political parties) with aggressive state laws (or proposing aggressive state laws) on birthrate control and population-size control. aCute 04:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The opening of the article is highly dubious, poorly structured, lacking in definition or a grasp of the concept. It is also completely focused on one country as if the rest of the planet didn't exist.
I've rewritten it to define:
No. Toned down extremely strong POV. Neither the pro-life nor the pro-choice articles should be advocacy articles for that side. Both were. NPOV requires neutrality from both. This article is anything but neutral, as well as poorly restructured and chronically inaccurate. It even gets Roe versus Wade wrong (and that is Baaaad!) Roe versus Wade was not about abortion per se. It was whether abortion was a federal or state issue, and if federal (and the courts decided that it was a matter for US federal constitutional law, not the Texas criminal code), what form the rights should be in federal constitutional law. If you don't know the former then you don't know where the whole case came from, and the logic behind the decision. The campaigns against Roe versus Wade are not primarily about the latter issue (federal law on abortion) but to get the court to give leeway to the states to take ownership of abortion law, in the belief that individual states are more likely to add in anti-abortion clauses in their own state law and state constitutions than are ever likely to happen at federal level.
This article, frankly, is amateurish, substandard, confused in its elementary understanding of law and concepts and way off encyclopaedic standards. If written in a university it would be returned to the writer with a "not adequate" tag or a pass mark.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
06:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Under WP rules major rewrites are allowed. Blanking large parts of an article is not. It is seen as vandalism and those doing it are blocked. If you disagree with parts of the article, offer a critique. Reinstating an article that
is vandalism and will be treated as such under WP rules.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
00:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Jtdirl, I don't understand your complaint. You say that there isn't a definition, and yet it starts with:
Is this inaccurate? Would you like a few citations to make this more clear? Would you like to offer citations that show it to be inaccurate? Throw me a rope here.
In the meantime, while we try to resolve these issues, please don't continue reverting to your preferred version, as this constitutes edit-warring and is highly unproductive. I've been forced to leave you a warning on your talk page.
My edit warring??? lol. I rewrote an frankly crap article under WP rules. You deleted an entire article, all international information, all references, all links, all sources, all information that you didn't write, etc. That is unambiguous vandalism under Wikipedia rules and that is a blockable offence. Users deleting that information have been blocked by various admins. You offer not a single bit of evidence to support your claims, but blanket reverts. I am more than happy to discuss things. It would help if just once you discussed content, not mass deleted stuff. I didn't delete stuff. I turned it into someone less incoherent (how on earth could an article on pro-choice get something as basic as Roe versus Wade wrong??? There two key facts about Roe versus Wade — that it decided that abortion was a matter for federal constitutional law, not state statute law, and that the judgment was based on the right of privacy in the federal constitution. An article can't even get those elementary facts right, and that doesn't mention them, is so bad it beggars belief. It is like writing about George Bush and leaving out 9/11, the Iraq war and the fact that he was president!!!).
Your actions break all the rules on article writing. Try reading the rules on article writing. As for leaving a warning! lol. I have yet to hear a single justification for why a substandard, poorly written, confused, POV-laiden, barely coherent article of sub-high school level, without sources, without international comparisons, without a critique, without a reading list, with agenda-pushing links, without even an elementary grasp of the theoretical framework within which the abortion debate and the concept of rights (whether "right of the unborn" or "right to choose") in the debate, should be regarded as other than an embarrassment. About the only thing that mishmash of an article deserved was the tag "how not to write an article".
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
22:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Completely inaccurate, grammatical nonsense, completely POV.
A four line sentence manages to get the definition wrong, contain linguistic goggledigook and use POV language. And that is one of the better sentences in this mish-mash of an article!
My wording was carefully phrased to distinguish between the ethical concept and the movement of supporters, and to make it quite clear what legally pro-choice campaigners are looking for.
Jtdirl, in your most recent revert in your edit war against Romarin and I, you wrote:
Now, I'm going to WP:AGF here and avoid reading this as a direct threat to block us for reverting your WP:POV insertions. I'm sure you didn't mean to pretend that our content dispute constitutes vandalism, as much as I'm sure you know WP:BLOCK does not permit you to use your admin rights to win content disputes.
And I'm absolutely certain you know better than to threaten to abuse your admin rights to get your way on this article, because I know you don't want me to post a complaint on WP:ANI, much less launch a full RFC. I'm so certain that I'm not going to immediately report you. I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding. Right?
We are all equals here, admins or not, and we are all going to work together as equals to make this a better article. Nobody is going to muscle in and take over, and the sysop bit cannot grant immunity from the WP:NPOV requirement. I hope we're on the same wavelength here and look forward to working with you as an equal. See above for the first step. Al 04:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
That is a gross misinterpretation. I never said and never implied that I would block anyone. I pointed out that admins do block people for such behaviour. They do, all the time. All you are doing is shooting the messenger for pointing out that your behaviour could get you blocked.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
20:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Chooserr replaced the {{ sources}} and {{ not verified}} tags that I had removed as "redundant," asking how they're redundant. It's like this, Chooserr: the tag that I didn't remove says that the article is lacking in "neutrality of structure, quality of writing, objectivity with which the topic is covered, factual reliability of information, and lack of any sourcing and nature of external links." I'd say that covers the objections made in the other two tags. With their inclusion, the lack of sources is objected to twice (3 times, really), hence "redundant". If there's something missing from that list, please add it, instead of appending extra tags, thus forcing the entire content of the article below the fold. That's quite clearly going too far. Those templates exist to bring attention to an article langishing in cruddiness - the point is to use as few as possible, and get rid of them as quickly as possible, not to arrange them into the greatest possible eyesore, nor to use them as a weapon in content disputes.
Does that make sense now, why I used that word?
Now, part of the responsibility in adding tags to an article is to make specific objections that can be addressed to improve the article. What have you got? - GTBacchus( talk) 00:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that many of the things that these templates aim to express are already quite clearly expressed here on the talk page, making them additionally redundant. Al 05:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone who thinks this article is terrible, and needs 5+ disclaimers at the top, could you perhaps make a laundry list of concerns so everyone can discuss and perhaps work on the article together. It seems that a number of folk are not seeing eye to eye, and if these concerns are voiced on talk, at least someone (like me) can be made aware of the issues and problems with this article. Thank you.-- Andrew c 21:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is being tagged to death.
The purpose of tags is to help people recognize when an article has a specific need for remediation, both so that they can exercise care in trusting the contents and so that they can jump in to fix it up. When all a reader can see is tags, we have lost track of this purpose and allowed them to be abused so as to make an article look bad.
At this point, I've removed all tags. Perhaps some of them deserve to be restored, but not all of them. Let's decide which, if any, still apply, right here in Talk. This will avoid the silly edit war. Al 06:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reinserted the tags and will continue to insert them as often as necessary unless this article hits adequate standards rather than the joke level it is at right now. Removing tags is seen as vandalism. Users are regularly blocked by admins for vandalism for unilaterally removing tags.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
19:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
In that case a request will be made to admins that you be blocked as a vandal.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
Jtdirl, it is the responsibility of someone tagging an article to make specific actionable suggestions on how it can be improved. What have you got? Let's fix the article and stop fighting over tags like we're all 8 years old. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Among the many many things missing from this article are
That is only some of the flaws with this substandard, poorly written, shoddily defined, frequently inaccurate article. In its current state it has a snowball's chance in hell of being defined as a "good Wikipedia article" let alone a featured one. It is neither comprehensive nor accurate, neither reliable nor trustworthy. But then this article (and the pro-life one) is famed for that. It regularly has "article sitters" who use it to push their agenda (pro-choice here), as shown with the frequently absurd external links put on this page. At this stage most long-standing users have given up trying to fix this article. Most of them have been burned by the POV-pushing that happens here.
Re my comments on Alienus "vandalising" this article by deleting stuff over and over again, Wikipedia rules are quite clear. The removal of dispute tags is one of the links listed by Wikipedia as vandalism and defined as "official policy on the English Wikipedia".
Wikipedia's policy on that is quite clear.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
03:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
But I can't think of anything more interesting to talk about than me! Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic.
Well, I looked at the laundry list. It's huge. You interested in addressing it or do you just want to drag one item out at a time so we can poke at it? Al 04:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Just briefly on the international aspect. I totally agree that balancing systematic bias is necessary, and any worldviews and international POVs should clearly be included. However, Jtdirl's international section addition seemed to have nothing to do with "pro-choice" and more to do with abortion law. That said, you also have a number of valid criticisms and suggestions. I'm sure we can work through this without edit warring if we give it some time and patience. Thanks for taking the time to write out all these concerns.-- Andrew c 02:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
These aren't super easy to find. Feel free to add to the list, and comment if desired. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The following subsections contain sources compiled by Jtdirl:
What do we think of this, as opposed to the current first paragraph?
Input, please. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I personally think the most notable aspect of "pro-choice" is their view on abortion, with the other issues taking a secondary role. I mean, this intro works, but I also thought the last intro worked. a woman should be allowed to make all the choices pertaining to her fertility seems wordy oddly to me, but I can't think of a better phrasing. Maybe get rid of "be allowed to". or maybe "a woman should control her fertility" or something like that? I wouldn't say all the pro-choice movement does is "lobby". Think of Planned Parenthood and NNAF and any number of pro-choice organizations that provide services or any number of other things not dealing with legality issues. Overall, the paragraph still needs work, but I'm not opposed to it or anything.-- Andrew c 02:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I would not object if the sentence said something along the lines of "pro-choicers believe this (the woman's right to control her fertility) is ethical," but in its current form it is making a factual claim to what is a POV. Consider the counter-point: "Pro-life is a term used to describe the political and ethical view which maintains that all human beings, including the unborn, have the unalienable right to life." Would this be acceptable? If so, then I will consider including it as counter-point on the pro-life page. LotR 17:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Do not agree -- the statement is not saying that "pro-choice is an ethical view"; it's saying that it is "the ethical view" implying that the counter-point-of-view is, in fact, unethical. I provided a counter-point statement: "Pro-life is a term used to describe the political and ethical view which maintains that all human beings, including the unborn, have the unalienable right to life." Would you approve if that were the first statement on the pro-life page? Instead, we find the following: "Pro-life campaigners argue that these issues concern the inalienable 'right to life' of what they believe are human beings." Key words: "campaigners argue," "what they believe are"; "right to life" is in scare quotes. Contrast that with "the ... ethical view which maintains that ..." LotR 17:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Al, would you agree that the counterexample sentence offered by LotR is perfectly acceptable for describing the pro-life position? - GTBacchus( talk) 18:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with this wording. LotR 20:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you understand the context of the work ethical in the sentence. It is not in any way taking any stance on the rights or wrongs of the issue. It is simply saying that the subscribers to the pro-choice belief believe it is an issue of right and wrong, ie, it is an
ethical issue. So do Pro-lifers. They too see it as an ethical issue. That is standard usage that features in textbooks, in academic courses, and in millions of uses worldwide by everyone. You are attaching a meaning to it that simply does not exist.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
21:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
This is suppose to be an encyclopedia. Why are people who are suppose to know better erasing pages to redirect them? This is a valid page. Make it better if you don't like it, but stop erasing them!
I am glad to know Alec Baldwin's position on abortion I realize the majority of people assume that the word choice automatically means the abortion issue but isn't the term choice to general to apply to one specific issue. i mean should this page be redirect to say [[Pro choice (abortion issue)] or something like that
The last sentence in the first paragraph violates NPOV. "right of women to choose what to do with their bodies" doesn't describe the Pro-Choice movement's actual political goals so much as it describes the reasoning behind their beliefs. IOW, Pro-Choice refers to advocating the legality of abortion, and "allowing women to choose what to do with their bodies" is the reason given for this advocacy. To include this phrase in the definition of Pro-Choice without noting that it is what they believe the question of legalization of abortion concerns is to write from the Pro-Choice perspective. On the Pro-Life page, the reasoning behind the Pro-Life position (the right to life of human beings) is rightly listed as their belief, rather than as the definition itself. If the Pro-Life article were written like the Pro-Choice article, it would say "Pro-Lifers are opposed to the decriminalization of abortion, and they defend the right to life of human beings". Just as that would be obviously biased, the equivalent Pro-Choice sentance is also biased.
I kindly tried to talk above the fray to User:Neutrality and sent this message. He erased it and did not respond. He ceratinly should never be an administrator.
I believe that Pro-Choice and Pro-Life are legitimate articles. If you want to re-direct the pages, why don't you do it officially and we can have a vote? There was no reason for a re-direct since the pages both had links to Morality and legality of abortion. Since you obviously have nothing to add to the pages I would thank you to keep from re-direcing them until the time there is a vote to remove the pages to re-directs. Timothy001 19:13, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Agree neutrality does not really believe in NPOV, and is a political hack. -- NERD42 EMAIL TALK H2G2 UNCYC NEWS 18:04, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
OK, this has got to be discussed. Should this be an article or a redirect? Please post your views here, with reasons, rather than just keep changing this page about. Darksun 19:58, 8 Sep 2004 (UTC)
In the United States, the Democratic Party tends to be more "Pro-Choice" than the Republican Party.
While this is most likely true, I have two concerns. Number one, this is a generalisation despite the veiled conditional "tends." Secondly, I don't think "pro-choice" is an exclusively American term despite the fact it has its origins here. Referring to America political parties and no others seems Americo-centric, which we try to stray from in respects to neutrality. Any thoughts? -- Thorns Among Our Leaves 21:16, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
After glancing at the article, this article does indeed have a biased lean... Can we get a clean up and some more info? An issue like this deserves more than two sections. -- HoO8MyRiCe
There's no "tends" about it. The Democratic Party, in its platform, expresses directly its commitment to being pro-choice. Likewise, the Republican party in their platform expresses directly that it is pro-life. Smokingmaenad 23:12, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Now, I'm pro-choice, personally. But I don't see any problem with laws to ensure that women know what they're getting into and what their options are. (And I think the thing about 'not trusting physicians' or whatnot is bullsh*t, because it's not just an ordinary surgical procedure -- there's two lives at stake, one of which may be ended or prevented from occurring, depending on how you look at it, but which the doctor may not consider as 'living'.) Anyway, should the above paragraph be a little less absolute? Or do I not count because I'm just an armchair pro-choicer and not a 'pro-choice activist'? (Serious question, BTW.) -- Wisq 15:38, 2005 May 12 (UTC)
It's not a proper noun, most in-text hits seem to be lowercase, and the WP manual of style discourages capitalizing the letter after the hyphen in hyphenated words. Most inbound links are looking for l/c, as well. Niteowlneils 02:52, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
Move is done! Talrias ( t | e | c) 10:41, 22 July 2005 (UTC)
User:Neutrality moved this page from pro-choice to abortion-rights movement on August 28, 2005, without any discussion here. I have reverted the move for consistency with the title of the pro-life article. Note that pro-life and anti-abortion movement are separate articles. One possibility to consider is that pro-choice and abortion-rights movement be separate articles, with pro-choice focusing on the usage (including both support and criticism) of the term "pro-choice," and abortion-rights movement focusing on the subject indicated by its title. — Lowellian ( reply) 06:00, 16 September 2005 (UTC)
Just a reader here, but I noticed that this article repeats itself several times. I'm not entirely sure how to go about cleaning it up a little without rewriting the whole thing, which is frankly effort I can't put forth at the moment. Thought I'd call attention to it. --K.M.
I added {{ Cleanup}} to the page, because I feel this has a lot of doubled uses, and isn't really that helpful as a resource in its current form. I'll get back to it when I can, but please feel free to cleanup in the meantime. - Mys e ku rity ( have you seen this?) 01:31, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Pro-choice → Pro-abortion – not my request, I'm just making this section so I can vote oppose. Rhobite 20:00, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved. Jonathunder 20:57, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
'Pro-choice' is, probably, a more commonly-used term than 'pro-abortion': see [1] for the Google test. However, a case might be made for a move under the naming conventions for the title 'pro-abortion' being less ambiguous (although whether 'what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize' trumps ambiguity I don't know). (It's also arguably more NPOV.) -- Nick Boalch ?!? 22:13, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
From the intro:
...should be able to choose on issues relating to the life or death of themselves or any part of their body.
So - they're pro-amputation? This statement makes no sense - the life or death of themselves, yes, but any part of their body, no.....if this is an attempt to describe the fetus, say as much - as it stands, it seems a bit like weasel wording to me. DonaNobisPacem 17:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
Whilst we are all aware that pro-life/pro-choice centres mainly about the issue of abortion, recent US case also indicates a similar divide over issues such as advance directives to restrict commencement of treatment/feeding or its withdrawal, thus leading to death of a patient. There are other "rights issues", some of which seem less contentious in the UK, either not having gathered much media or political commentary, or being addressed through doctor's requirement to only treat competent adults with expressed consent (even if absence of treatment causes patient's death) and seek social services or the court's intervention if concerns for a child occurs. The two movements appear to be more active in the USA and seems in essence to be about "rights of individual" against "right to life" or "life is precious".
To try and clarify where the two groups take a wider position on various other medico-ethical issues, I present below some issues. In essence I wonder if there are broader movements to which pro-life/pro-choice views over abortion belong to - what I might term religious/conservative vs secular/liberal movements re human rights & consent. I do not seek debate about the specific points' pros or cons, just if people with awareness of the spectrums within both pro-choice & pro-life could indicate where a greater or lesser part of the "broad" movements have particular concerns (vs. individuals' concerns). Please just indicate whether pro-choice/pro-life have in general strong support, general sympathy, take no overall group stance, broadly disapprove or strongly object:
David Ruben Talk 02:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
The "Category:Pro-choice celebrities" belongs in the see also section, but it keeps getting transfered to the categories section. Anyone know how to fix it?
I overhauled this article only to have it reverted. So I am seeking consensus about my changes. You can view a comparison here. You'll notice that I did the same things for Pro-life.
First of all, "pro-life" and "pro-choice" are adjectives, not nouns! The first sentence of each article says that "Pro-choice is a political movement...". No, it's not. It's a term that describes a political movement or idea.
Second, the soliloquy about informed consent is entirely misplaced. In attempting to justify pro-choice opposition to informed consent laws, it only serves to suggest a pro-choice POV and undermine the credibility of the article. You can MENTION informed consent laws in the context of a list of restrictions that pro-choicers oppose (as I tried to do), but otherwise keep that debate out of the article. Plus, even if you want to cover the debate, you only chose to represent one side!
Third, saying that restrictions "impede a woman's choice" is highly POV. That can be toned down, for example, to "limit the right to abortion."
Fourth, the introductory monologue about how pro-choicers don't like being called "pro-abortion" is also misplaced. It belongs in the "Term controversy" section. But since it is highly suggestive of a pro-choice POV (by going on and on about the justification for calling oneself "pro-choice" unbalanced by a counterargument), I simply deleted it and figured the "Term controversy" section would suffice.
Fifth, this paragraph is highly suggestive of POV: "People who identify as pro-choice fall along a spectrum of political opinion, ranging from the view that all abortions should be legal, to the view that abortions should only be legal until a certain date in the progression of the pregnancy (such as the third trimester, which is the approximate gestational age at which a fetus can survive outside of a woman's body)." The parenthetical comment about viability (without actually mentioning viability, because it is in fact FAR earlier than the third trimester) is irrelevant to the topic of the sentence and the topic of the paragraph. It is also horrible from a stylistic POV.
Sixth, referencing Roe v. Wade's "trimester" framework is kind of silly without mentioning that Planned Parenthood v. Casey dispensed with that framework. "In its 1973 landmark case of Roe v. Wade" is too pedestrian; how about "In its landmark 1973 case, Roe v. Wade"?
Seventh, "people who believe the opposite view" is clunky and wordy. How about "opponents of abortion"? Or "pro-lifers"?
Eighth, "Within that term also exists a spectrum of political opinion". That is horrible writing. How about "Pro-lifers also hold diverse opinions"?
Ninth, the consistent framing of the abortion issue in this article in terms of a hypothetical "woman" serves to advance a pro-choice POV. It personalizes the issue and makes it emotional: "A woman's health", "a woman's right", "the uterus of a woman" instead of "health risks", "abortion rights", "uterus". Which reflects a more NPOV? The latter.
In sum, this article is a mess (grammatically and content-wise) and should be overhauled along the lines I attempted here. I am asking for a consensus on this. (And I'm doing the same thing over at Pro-life.) Thanks, -- Hyphen5 01:37, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I support Hyphen's attempts to have this article comply with guidelines. {{POV|date=March 2008}} and {{Original research|date=March 2008}} tags are a serious matter. Do not remove them while issues are under discussion. -- WikiCats 02:44, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
Jeez, I was reading the edit history wrong (I'm used to seeing the newer edits on the right side). I was thinking "Hmm... this does seem like an improvement, what is the fuss about". But when I realized that you are not Joelr31, I was initially shocked by the amount of blanking. But you are right about informed consent discussion not belonging in the first paragraph (move it perhaps?) I don't know why you blanked the part about fetal deformities. #6, #8 make sense. I would say go right ahead on some of your minor changes, and for bigger POV issues and blanking, flesh it out here on the talk page. And thank you for coming to the talk page after noticing other editors' concern over your changes.-- Andrew c 04:33, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
A few comments. The hard numbering is that of the original. 2) I think you are dead wrong here. Pro-choice and pro-life do not refer only to abortion. Informed consent is an important part of it. It's neither a "soliliquy" or "one-sided", just needs wikifying. 3) You suggest replacing "impede a woman's choice" with "limit the right to abortion." I think your suggestion is worse. I suggest "impede a woman's right to chose". There is nothing POV about that. Restrictions literally do prevent people from being able to chose. If you have a choice between A, B, and C, and C is restricted, your choice has been restricted. 4) You were wrong to delete this section. It think a brief intro to the terms is warranted in the intro, but your deletion resulted in a net loss of information. It is notable that pro-life people dislike being called anti-choice in the same way pro-choice people dislike being called pro-abortion. That's why these terms are self-applied rather than externally-applied. 6) I agree, but remember this article has to cover history as well as the present state of affairs. 7) "opponents of the pro-choice movement" would be better as calling them anything else probably risks POV problems (see my comments on #4). 8) I don't think your rewrite is an improvement here: try again. 9) You are dead wrong here again. "Abortion rights" is just as POV as "a woman's right". Please don't make any of your changes until some consensus emerges here. savidan (talk) (e@) 07:39, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
We can't please everyone all the time. I'm happy with the current text, even though it displeases you. It is quite literally correct, so you don't have an objective objection. Alienus 18:06, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes. You can't have "impede a woman's choice". --
WikiCats
11:59, 6 April 2006 (UTC)
Goodandevil noted this New York Times story over at Talk:Pro-life: The Abortion-Rights Side Invokes God, Too. Since religious affiliation was discussed over at Pro-life, I think it's only fair that we add a paragraph about pro-choicers' religious affiliations. -- Hyphen5 17:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I found this little gem pro-abortion. I like how there is a concluding sentence ;) It used to redirect here. I was hoping the editors here could either rework it, or agree to redirect it again. There isn't much content to merge, because the term is discussed a little already in the "Term controversy" section. What do you think?-- Andrew c 04:09, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I would think that articles entitled either pro-abortion or anti-abortion should not exist on their own. Instead, they should be redirected to pro-choice and pro-life, respectively. Is there anyone who can put forth an argument against this suggestion? Alienus 07:59, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm not one of those people who decry abortion as a necessary evil. I'm not one of those self-righteous misogynists who would pass judgement on pro-choicers, pregnant women, or women who chose to abort. I don't hate abortion. I think it's wonderful. I think it's wonderful because it frees women from unwanted pregnancies, it keeps women from enduring the risks and complications that can arise from pregnancy, and it gives them say over when they will have children. If ever. So I will not give the whinging line, 'Oh, abortion is horrible, but I guess I'll have to allow it.'
— "Sheelzebub", Pinko Feminist Hellcat blog
These have become a real mess with all the back-and-forth editing as of late, so I went ahead and cleaned them up. Feel free to comment here. Alienus 18:58, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
No, a revert is what you did right now. Also, a revert is what I will be doing as soon as it's convenient to do so. The change that you are trying to remove is called a cleanup because it cleans up a lot of messy nonsense and repetition. Now, if you have any specific suggestions, I'd like to hear them. If you just want to revert, then you're edit-warring instead of doing your job as an editor. Alienus 19:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Editors of this page may want to comment at Talk:Anti-abortion_movement#RfC:__Merger_of_article_with_Pro-Choice_and_Pro-Life.. Thanks. DonaNobisPacem 21:19, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Here is how it stands now:
And this is what it was:
I find the current wording problematic for a number of reasons. The second sentence is a gramatical nightmare. The clauses don't follow form: "as when.." "finds.." "is.." "if..". Here is one idea:
Still not perfect. We need to make it clear what we are trying to convey in the 2nd paragraph. What do others think?-- Andrew c 23:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
You have not read enough of the pro-choice literature - that is the exact belief of the pro-choice movement. During the eighties, when China was vigorously enforcing the one child limit, this philosophy was expressed over and over again. Just stop and think about it - choice refers to the choice the individual is making. It means that the individual, not the government. There is NO OTHER interpretation than that one. I would say it's an equally liberal reasoning.
I am just absolutely flabbergasted. I'd love to know what you think "pro-choice" means. Seriously.
I've been involved with the pro-choice movement since the early eighties. If you stop and think about it, it will become abundantly clear and Roe V Wade will actually make a lot more sense to you. This is the basic philosophy of the choice movement. I think it should be put back. I'm not gonna get in an edit war but in order for people to understand pro-choice rhetoric, that explanation needs to be in place, and it should upfront as it is the essential point of view. Smokingmaenad 03:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Your wish is my command:)
WASHINGTON – Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., long an outspoken advocate of abortion on demand in the U.S., is speaking out against the forced abortion policies of China, a direct result of Beijing's strict limits on the number of children parents may bring into the world.
Clinton wrote a letter to President Bush urging him to address the human rights violations occurring in China when he travels there next week. The first issue on the list was forced abortion. She says the Chinese government is using "psychological and economic pressure and threats to force women to terminate pregnancies," according to the New York Sun. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47367
We hear about state forced abortions in China and in other countries and we gasp in disbelief! We hear about baby girls being put to death because girls are not valued and respected. We read stories about women having their feet bound, being forced into submission, and being beaten if they do not comply. Yet, if the landmark US Supreme Court Roe v Wade decision legalizing abortion is overturned, we are but one step away from this manner of government intervention. After all, any government that prohibits abortion has also the power to force it. http://www.nownys.com/presmessage.html
In the legal realm, CFFC favors laws on abortion that support the right of women to make the decision of whether or not to have an abortion with minimal state involvement. Because we believe abortion is a moral matter on which one can legitimately have different views, we think it is the responsibility of the state to protect the right to choose, but not to make the decision for women. We are as opposed to forced abortions, such as those which take place in China, as we are to forced pregnancy as preached by the church. http://www.catholicsforchoice.org/news/op-eds/2001/20011001theplaceforindividualconscience.asp
http://www.feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=2611 The report included accounts of rampant trafficking of minors from the Philippines and China for forced prostitution, and of the importation of more than 100 Russian women for work in brothels.
Several foreign women garment workers stated that their employers ordered them to have abortions or face losing their jobs. Investigators concluded that garment manufacturers force abortions because they do not want to be liable for the extra cost of lost productivity during pregnancy and childbirth.
http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-canada.org/articles/realchoice.shtml A fundamental misunderstanding of the abortion issue lies in the way people often refer to anti-choice and pro-choice as "two sides." In fact, the anti-choice are in favour of forced motherhood, and the opposite of that is forced abortion. We oppose both of these extremist positions.
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/fem059.htm To be "pro-choice" means to work to eradicate situations where people are not offered choices - as in forced sterilization, forced abortion, infant mortality, forced motherhood, rape, domestic violence, hunger, and the objectification of women's bodies.
http://www.ppae.ab.ca/index.php?m=9&s=4 Abortion is one way to allow individuals to limit their childbearing voluntarily when a country's resources cannot support its population. Pro-choice people oppose forced abortion and support freedom of choice for all women in all countries.
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/realchoice.html In fact, the anti-choice are in favour of forced motherhood, and the opposite of that is forced abortion. We oppose both of these extremist positions.
Is this enough quotes to return my entry to the pro-choice page? 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Smokingmaenad 05:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Regarding:
Pro-life presently has a foundations section. Why not create a similar section here and add libertarian, etc. views on what pro-choice is. I didn't have a problem with what was added which is why I didn't revert it. Anyway, I'll do the section work and editing if it seems OK.-- Pro-Lick 01:44, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm fine with view-specific sections, but I'm not fine with the entire article being distorted. As it stands, though, we have a link to libertarian views on abortion, either here or on the main article. Among other things, libertarians often take pro-life positions. Alienus 01:56, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Alienus - the idea that the woman gets to make the choice either way is the essence of what pro-choice movement is about. There is no other interpretation. It may be a POV that is in sync with certain Libertarians but it is NOT derived from Libertarianism, but from the view that it is inappropriate for the government to be deciding either way what a pregnant woman should be required to do. By you claiming that it's simply a Libertarian POV, you are, in effect, arguing the pro-life postion that pro-choice is "pro-abortion". It is not. Pro-choice means that it's the woman's right to decide whether her body will carry a pregnancy to term.
Unfortunately, the NOW archives online don't get back far enough. But when the stories first came out about China forcing abortions one women, the pro-choice movement took a strong and active stance against that. Either way, it's the government making the choice - not the individual. The Nazis who banned abortion were anti-choice. The government made the decision as to what would happen. The Chinese were also anti-choice - they, too, chose rather than the woman.
If you don't know the history and philosophy behind this stuff, you shouldn't be making edits.
Now, please what were the other issues?
Smokingmaenad 02:59, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm sorry, Alienus, I have no idea how that relates to what I'm saying. I'm pointing out, quite simply, that the choice refers to the individual not the government making the decision, and that the pro-choice movement supports the woman's right to choose either way. We aren't talking about crack - we're talking about pregnancy. Whether you agree with that philosophy or not is irrelevant. Smokingmaenad 05:09, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Can you substantiate the broad mainstream of the pro-choice movement feels that way?
I put the lead back in. In the paragraph above, I provide several quotes from people as diverse as Hillary Clinton and Frances Kissling, and Planned Parenthood taking an official stance against forced abortions. Smokingmaenad 06:20, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Smokingmaenad 15:45, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
If you take a look at Tay Sachs, you'll find this text:
Infants with Tay-Sachs disease appear to develop normally for the first six months of life. Then, as nerve cells become distended with fatty material, a relentless deterioration of mental and physical abilities occurs. The child becomes blind, deaf, and unable to swallow. Muscles begin to atrophy and paralysis sets in. Death usually occurs between 2-5 years
It's a death sentence and a horrible one at that. Fortunately, genetic counseling has made it very rare. Couples who are carriers either adopt or they test for Tay-Sachs during pregnancy and selectively abort. To knowingly bring a Tay Sachs baby into the world is an act of cruelty and maternal neglect. This is why I chose it as an example of the sort of pregnancy whose forced abortion might be justified. And, contrary to what you suggest, this is neither fascist nor in opposite to the pro-choice movement.
I've read as much Larry Niven as the next nerd, but I think your comments about mandatory organ donation miss the mark. The "pro-life" movement may well use such arguments if they're handy, but it's not what drives them. Fundamentally, the movement is anti-choice; it wants to prevent women from having control of their bodies. If they choose to have sex, they should suffer as many consequences as possible. That's why, despite claiming abortion is murder, the majority of anti-choicers make an exception when the woman didn't choose to have sex.
In the end, the libertarians support the Republicans, which makes them the enemies of the pro-choice movement. To the extent that libertarians even give lip service to the right to an abortion, their notion of rights doesn't extend to government protections, instead substituting as much justice as money can buy on the wonderfully free market. Alienus 17:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
http://alternet.org/blogs/peek/34576/
That's an issue from the side of legality, but the reality is that the law serves the desires of those in power, not merely internal consistency. It may well be internally consistent to say that forbidding abortion means allowing forced organ donation, but that doesn't mean there's sufficient political might behind the latter to make it a reality. Paradoxically, what's going to fix the organ shortage in the long term is research into stem cells, which is often condemned by "pro-lifers".
I think your imgination here is limited, as shown by your characterization of such people as "fringe nuts". Everyone has their own choice, for their own bodies. Forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term can not be justified by the potential interests of the potential infant. However, forcing her to end a pregnancy that would create a nonviable infant is another matter entirely. It is protecting the actual interests of the actual person, not merely a potential one.
As it happens, I'm familiar with El Salvador. It's not a wonderful place to live, by any measure. It's at least as good a choice as Poland for use as an example of the opposite but likewise bad case of China. Alienus 17:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I'm familiar with a number of views, including libertarianism. However, if I were a libertarian myself then I'd agree with the notion that the tenets of choice are inviolate. I do not. Choice is a good thing, in that it generally lets us act to further our interests. However, it's those interests that are the highest goal. So, all things being equal, having free choice is best, but not all things are equal all the time, therefore not all choices should be free.
Consider the case where someone is unable to make decisions for themselves, so a guardian is given fiduciary responsibility to decide for them. A good example would be the parents of an infant deciding whether it should have surgery. In this case, there is the risk that the guardians will choose to serve their own interests at the cost of their wards', which is why society may need to get involved and override their decisions.
One way society gets involved is in forbidding parents from harming their children through abuse and neglect. The issue, then, is whether allowing a Tay Sachs child to be born can be distinguished from neglect. In other words, do children have a right to be born without a disease that dooms them? That's not a trivial issue and it's not something that can be satisfactorily resolved merely by invoking a priori principles.
Having said that, the principles people invoke do constrain the kinds of results possible. The ones that drive the pro-choice movement amount to a a liberal concern for the interests of people, seen both as individuals and members of society. In contrast, libertarians are concerned with their personal interests and feel that these are best served by denying any positive obligations towards others while asserting a right to choose anything. Interestingly, quite a few libertarians use this to oppose reproductive rights.
This is why I edited your text: to remove the suggestion that the pro-life movement is fundamentally libertarian. Pro-choice is not libertarian and libertarianism is, at best, only incidentally pro-choice, and neither consistently nor wholeheartedly so. Alienus 23:08, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Pro-lick, the article you cited is several pages long. Could you quote the sentence(s) in it that support the edit: "By this reasoning, China (which has, in the past, allegedly forced abortions and sterilizations on women and El Salvador (which protects from the moment of conception) are both equally anti-choice and therefore, are opposed with equal vehemence" i.e. that China and El S are opposed with equal vehemence by the pro-choice movement. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 19:53, 10 April 2006 (UTC)
IIRC, the NPOV tag was added when hyphen5's overhaul was reverted by Alienus. However, the majority of hyphen5's changes were eventually added, and most of the disputes have quieted down. Can we remove the NPOV tag? If users still have a problem with parts of this article, they can NPOV tag sections, and fact tag specific claims. I do not believe the whole article as it stands now deserves the tag. What do you say? (copied from pro-life)-- Andrew c 16:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)
There are many citations that could be used to show growing suport for pro-life Democrats but try this one from Newsweek on for size. Briancua 01:29, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
There was a page on A woman's right to choose that was voted a long time ago to be merged here. I attempted to add a sentence about this slogan, but it was reverted. Could we decide where we want this information? Or is there no need to mention this slogan at all? Should we recreate the individual slogal page? Here is the content of the old article:
-- Andrew c 14:57, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Just wondering why the term anti-abortion is being used, but no the term anti-Life? People obviously do not like the word anti (Therefore being anti-anti) and it is only used to negatively portray pro-life. I think, either end the use of "anit-aborition" or use both "anti-abortion" and "anti-life" just as much. Am I right? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 172.129.247.188 ( talk • contribs) .
An anonymous user recently suggested merging this page with reproductive rights; please go to
the RR talk page for discussion. Thank you!
rom
a
rin
talk to her ]
00:04, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia is about adding information and not removing information. I have been trying to add more information to the pro-abortion page regarding traditional usage and popular misusage, but it has been reverted. So, I'm posting the additional information here for the moment for discussion. The following is the proposed disambiguation page followed by short terminology and my 2 cents. aCute 03:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The term "pro-abortion" may be refering to the support for state-ordered abortions as a part of birth control policy in managing child birth rate and population size of a nation state.
The term "pro-abortion" is also a perjorative term for " pro-choice" in the context of womens's reproductive rights used by anti-abortion supporters.
{{ disambiguation}}
In the context of abortion,
aCute 03:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion, the three policies--Pro-Life, Pro-Choice, and Pro-Abortion--are completely and mutually exclusive with vastly different aims--protecting fetuses, protecting reproductive rights, and managing population size respectively.
So logically, the pro-abortion page should NOT be redirecting to the pro-choice page.
Also, more research is still needed to improve the pro-abortion policy page to include the history of pro-abortion policy. That is the historical use of such policy to control the population of minorities and procreation of women with disabilities; as well as how present-day countries is using state abortion to control its own population size. Furthermore, a list of ancient scholars who supported such policies in the ancient times as well as a list of present-day countries (and political parties) with aggressive state laws (or proposing aggressive state laws) on birthrate control and population-size control. aCute 04:46, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
The opening of the article is highly dubious, poorly structured, lacking in definition or a grasp of the concept. It is also completely focused on one country as if the rest of the planet didn't exist.
I've rewritten it to define:
No. Toned down extremely strong POV. Neither the pro-life nor the pro-choice articles should be advocacy articles for that side. Both were. NPOV requires neutrality from both. This article is anything but neutral, as well as poorly restructured and chronically inaccurate. It even gets Roe versus Wade wrong (and that is Baaaad!) Roe versus Wade was not about abortion per se. It was whether abortion was a federal or state issue, and if federal (and the courts decided that it was a matter for US federal constitutional law, not the Texas criminal code), what form the rights should be in federal constitutional law. If you don't know the former then you don't know where the whole case came from, and the logic behind the decision. The campaigns against Roe versus Wade are not primarily about the latter issue (federal law on abortion) but to get the court to give leeway to the states to take ownership of abortion law, in the belief that individual states are more likely to add in anti-abortion clauses in their own state law and state constitutions than are ever likely to happen at federal level.
This article, frankly, is amateurish, substandard, confused in its elementary understanding of law and concepts and way off encyclopaedic standards. If written in a university it would be returned to the writer with a "not adequate" tag or a pass mark.
FearÉIREANN
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06:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)
Under WP rules major rewrites are allowed. Blanking large parts of an article is not. It is seen as vandalism and those doing it are blocked. If you disagree with parts of the article, offer a critique. Reinstating an article that
is vandalism and will be treated as such under WP rules.
FearÉIREANN
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00:57, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Jtdirl, I don't understand your complaint. You say that there isn't a definition, and yet it starts with:
Is this inaccurate? Would you like a few citations to make this more clear? Would you like to offer citations that show it to be inaccurate? Throw me a rope here.
In the meantime, while we try to resolve these issues, please don't continue reverting to your preferred version, as this constitutes edit-warring and is highly unproductive. I've been forced to leave you a warning on your talk page.
My edit warring??? lol. I rewrote an frankly crap article under WP rules. You deleted an entire article, all international information, all references, all links, all sources, all information that you didn't write, etc. That is unambiguous vandalism under Wikipedia rules and that is a blockable offence. Users deleting that information have been blocked by various admins. You offer not a single bit of evidence to support your claims, but blanket reverts. I am more than happy to discuss things. It would help if just once you discussed content, not mass deleted stuff. I didn't delete stuff. I turned it into someone less incoherent (how on earth could an article on pro-choice get something as basic as Roe versus Wade wrong??? There two key facts about Roe versus Wade — that it decided that abortion was a matter for federal constitutional law, not state statute law, and that the judgment was based on the right of privacy in the federal constitution. An article can't even get those elementary facts right, and that doesn't mention them, is so bad it beggars belief. It is like writing about George Bush and leaving out 9/11, the Iraq war and the fact that he was president!!!).
Your actions break all the rules on article writing. Try reading the rules on article writing. As for leaving a warning! lol. I have yet to hear a single justification for why a substandard, poorly written, confused, POV-laiden, barely coherent article of sub-high school level, without sources, without international comparisons, without a critique, without a reading list, with agenda-pushing links, without even an elementary grasp of the theoretical framework within which the abortion debate and the concept of rights (whether "right of the unborn" or "right to choose") in the debate, should be regarded as other than an embarrassment. About the only thing that mishmash of an article deserved was the tag "how not to write an article".
FearÉIREANN
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22:09, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
Completely inaccurate, grammatical nonsense, completely POV.
A four line sentence manages to get the definition wrong, contain linguistic goggledigook and use POV language. And that is one of the better sentences in this mish-mash of an article!
My wording was carefully phrased to distinguish between the ethical concept and the movement of supporters, and to make it quite clear what legally pro-choice campaigners are looking for.
Jtdirl, in your most recent revert in your edit war against Romarin and I, you wrote:
Now, I'm going to WP:AGF here and avoid reading this as a direct threat to block us for reverting your WP:POV insertions. I'm sure you didn't mean to pretend that our content dispute constitutes vandalism, as much as I'm sure you know WP:BLOCK does not permit you to use your admin rights to win content disputes.
And I'm absolutely certain you know better than to threaten to abuse your admin rights to get your way on this article, because I know you don't want me to post a complaint on WP:ANI, much less launch a full RFC. I'm so certain that I'm not going to immediately report you. I'm sure it's just a misunderstanding. Right?
We are all equals here, admins or not, and we are all going to work together as equals to make this a better article. Nobody is going to muscle in and take over, and the sysop bit cannot grant immunity from the WP:NPOV requirement. I hope we're on the same wavelength here and look forward to working with you as an equal. See above for the first step. Al 04:17, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
That is a gross misinterpretation. I never said and never implied that I would block anyone. I pointed out that admins do block people for such behaviour. They do, all the time. All you are doing is shooting the messenger for pointing out that your behaviour could get you blocked.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
20:19, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Chooserr replaced the {{ sources}} and {{ not verified}} tags that I had removed as "redundant," asking how they're redundant. It's like this, Chooserr: the tag that I didn't remove says that the article is lacking in "neutrality of structure, quality of writing, objectivity with which the topic is covered, factual reliability of information, and lack of any sourcing and nature of external links." I'd say that covers the objections made in the other two tags. With their inclusion, the lack of sources is objected to twice (3 times, really), hence "redundant". If there's something missing from that list, please add it, instead of appending extra tags, thus forcing the entire content of the article below the fold. That's quite clearly going too far. Those templates exist to bring attention to an article langishing in cruddiness - the point is to use as few as possible, and get rid of them as quickly as possible, not to arrange them into the greatest possible eyesore, nor to use them as a weapon in content disputes.
Does that make sense now, why I used that word?
Now, part of the responsibility in adding tags to an article is to make specific objections that can be addressed to improve the article. What have you got? - GTBacchus( talk) 00:12, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
I suggest that many of the things that these templates aim to express are already quite clearly expressed here on the talk page, making them additionally redundant. Al 05:36, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
Everyone who thinks this article is terrible, and needs 5+ disclaimers at the top, could you perhaps make a laundry list of concerns so everyone can discuss and perhaps work on the article together. It seems that a number of folk are not seeing eye to eye, and if these concerns are voiced on talk, at least someone (like me) can be made aware of the issues and problems with this article. Thank you.-- Andrew c 21:59, 24 May 2006 (UTC)
This article is being tagged to death.
The purpose of tags is to help people recognize when an article has a specific need for remediation, both so that they can exercise care in trusting the contents and so that they can jump in to fix it up. When all a reader can see is tags, we have lost track of this purpose and allowed them to be abused so as to make an article look bad.
At this point, I've removed all tags. Perhaps some of them deserve to be restored, but not all of them. Let's decide which, if any, still apply, right here in Talk. This will avoid the silly edit war. Al 06:08, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reinserted the tags and will continue to insert them as often as necessary unless this article hits adequate standards rather than the joke level it is at right now. Removing tags is seen as vandalism. Users are regularly blocked by admins for vandalism for unilaterally removing tags.
FearÉIREANN
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(caint)
19:23, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
In that case a request will be made to admins that you be blocked as a vandal.
FearÉIREANN
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Jtdirl, it is the responsibility of someone tagging an article to make specific actionable suggestions on how it can be improved. What have you got? Let's fix the article and stop fighting over tags like we're all 8 years old. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Among the many many things missing from this article are
That is only some of the flaws with this substandard, poorly written, shoddily defined, frequently inaccurate article. In its current state it has a snowball's chance in hell of being defined as a "good Wikipedia article" let alone a featured one. It is neither comprehensive nor accurate, neither reliable nor trustworthy. But then this article (and the pro-life one) is famed for that. It regularly has "article sitters" who use it to push their agenda (pro-choice here), as shown with the frequently absurd external links put on this page. At this stage most long-standing users have given up trying to fix this article. Most of them have been burned by the POV-pushing that happens here.
Re my comments on Alienus "vandalising" this article by deleting stuff over and over again, Wikipedia rules are quite clear. The removal of dispute tags is one of the links listed by Wikipedia as vandalism and defined as "official policy on the English Wikipedia".
Wikipedia's policy on that is quite clear.
FearÉIREANN
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03:28, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
But I can't think of anything more interesting to talk about than me! Oh, wait, you were being sarcastic.
Well, I looked at the laundry list. It's huge. You interested in addressing it or do you just want to drag one item out at a time so we can poke at it? Al 04:02, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
Just briefly on the international aspect. I totally agree that balancing systematic bias is necessary, and any worldviews and international POVs should clearly be included. However, Jtdirl's international section addition seemed to have nothing to do with "pro-choice" and more to do with abortion law. That said, you also have a number of valid criticisms and suggestions. I'm sure we can work through this without edit warring if we give it some time and patience. Thanks for taking the time to write out all these concerns.-- Andrew c 02:39, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
These aren't super easy to find. Feel free to add to the list, and comment if desired. - GTBacchus( talk) 07:04, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
The following subsections contain sources compiled by Jtdirl:
What do we think of this, as opposed to the current first paragraph?
Input, please. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:43, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
I personally think the most notable aspect of "pro-choice" is their view on abortion, with the other issues taking a secondary role. I mean, this intro works, but I also thought the last intro worked. a woman should be allowed to make all the choices pertaining to her fertility seems wordy oddly to me, but I can't think of a better phrasing. Maybe get rid of "be allowed to". or maybe "a woman should control her fertility" or something like that? I wouldn't say all the pro-choice movement does is "lobby". Think of Planned Parenthood and NNAF and any number of pro-choice organizations that provide services or any number of other things not dealing with legality issues. Overall, the paragraph still needs work, but I'm not opposed to it or anything.-- Andrew c 02:35, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I would not object if the sentence said something along the lines of "pro-choicers believe this (the woman's right to control her fertility) is ethical," but in its current form it is making a factual claim to what is a POV. Consider the counter-point: "Pro-life is a term used to describe the political and ethical view which maintains that all human beings, including the unborn, have the unalienable right to life." Would this be acceptable? If so, then I will consider including it as counter-point on the pro-life page. LotR 17:09, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Do not agree -- the statement is not saying that "pro-choice is an ethical view"; it's saying that it is "the ethical view" implying that the counter-point-of-view is, in fact, unethical. I provided a counter-point statement: "Pro-life is a term used to describe the political and ethical view which maintains that all human beings, including the unborn, have the unalienable right to life." Would you approve if that were the first statement on the pro-life page? Instead, we find the following: "Pro-life campaigners argue that these issues concern the inalienable 'right to life' of what they believe are human beings." Key words: "campaigners argue," "what they believe are"; "right to life" is in scare quotes. Contrast that with "the ... ethical view which maintains that ..." LotR 17:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Al, would you agree that the counterexample sentence offered by LotR is perfectly acceptable for describing the pro-life position? - GTBacchus( talk) 18:38, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't have a problem with this wording. LotR 20:55, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you understand the context of the work ethical in the sentence. It is not in any way taking any stance on the rights or wrongs of the issue. It is simply saying that the subscribers to the pro-choice belief believe it is an issue of right and wrong, ie, it is an
ethical issue. So do Pro-lifers. They too see it as an ethical issue. That is standard usage that features in textbooks, in academic courses, and in millions of uses worldwide by everyone. You are attaching a meaning to it that simply does not exist.
FearÉIREANN
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21:17, 29 May 2006 (UTC)