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i must say a very good article, is it possible to have the article at least nominated for good article status? good job editors/writers i enjoyed reading it. have a nice day —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.16.42 ( talk) 00:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I corrected a couple gramatical errors on this page on 8/7/08. Also, the last section "Recent Developments" suggests the possibility that the Iowa and Wisconsin may be returned to the naval register. While technically this is true in principle, have their been any inklings from congress or the navy that this is even a remote possibility? I feel like this is conjecture and false hope more than anything else. Clearly the author of this page loves battleships (as do I), but I honestly dont see it happening. -EO 8/7/08
Precisely. The only museum ship that I am aware of that is still "combat capable" is USS Constitution, the famous frigate from the War of 1812. The "operational" status of this ship (she is massively obsolete, and no amount of retrofitting would allow her to be useful in modern war, but she could still fight against another 18th cantury warship, which HMS Victory could not.) Placing the battlewagons on the NVR requires the Navy to expend resources both on mainatining the ships but maintaining a supply of spare parts and ammunition, equipment that has not been manufactured in decades. LordShonus ( talk) 09:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Tom, sorry I've littered it with inline comments; seemed the quickest, easiest way. On one level, the writing is lovely; but I still find lots of issues. It's not as easy as usual to characterise them. I think they concern ambiguity and lack of clarity. Can you get someone fresh to sift through it in detail? Tony (talk) 10:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we have a section about the use of the LCS Netfires Non-Line-of-Sight Launch System for support of ground forces?
Historically the most effective Naval Fire Support has come from the smaller platforms that were able to operate closer to the beaches. See for example Omaha Beach.
Hcobb ( talk) 14:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Well The Navy (does Earth have more than one real Navy?) has renamed the concept to Naval Surface Fire Support so perhaps we should rename our page with perhaps a historical footnote to those long ago days when ships supported the troops only with guns.
http://www.fas.org/man/gao/gao95160.htm Naval Surface Fire Support: Navy's Near-Term Plan Is Not Based on Sufficient Analysis (Letter Report, 05/19/95, GAO/NSIAD-95-160).
BTW, was there ever such a day? I seem to recall hearing the phrase "The rockets' red glare" in a song about a long ago event...
Hcobb ( talk) 20:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Reading through the article I have a mild concern about POV, what I'm lifting from the text is a bias towards retaining the capability rather than an impartial overview of the debate. I think the main contribution to this is the significant proportion devoted to the work by the Engineer Col. It's not clear whether this was a student submission as part of his college course, or whether he is faculty. I'd assume from the following point about it being best thesis then it's a student submission. Having played the military education game myself I've got some concerns about how meaningful this actually is; selecting and supporting a contentious position gets some profile at the end of the course which helps with promotion and posting negotiations. I'm concerned enough that I'd remove the point about it being best thesis, it doesn't offer anything to this topic and it implies an authority that a student paper doesn't really have.
Of course I say all this from the position of agreeing with the USN view, that retaining these old hulls isn't cost effective and they're an anachronism in modern littorial warfare.
ALR ( talk) 09:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I am nearing the end of a 15 minute break online here, so I want to confirm one thing for the next time I get on: When you say "the theis", are you refering to the paper by Shawn W., the army corps of engineers full bird? TomStar81 ( Talk) 21:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Thesis removed? The USMC cites it all of the time and it does a great job showing the US Navy has been full of BS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.10.189.29 ( talk) 03:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Again Why was the thesis Removed? With Operation Bold Alligator it was brought up several times with the Navy. The Thesis belongs on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.74.37.73 ( talk) 06:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
References
NSFS is all about the application of firepower from the sea to the shore. The ability to sink ships with aircraft does not speak to the ability to replace surface ships with aircraft for the land support mission.
For example a surface ship can float offshore for days or weeks while a heavier than air aircraft has a much shorter time on station. Also it has generally been easier to intercept manned aircraft than a shell or unmanned missile and the loss of a manned aircraft can cause political concerns with respect to the pilot and advanced technology of the aircraft.
Hcobb ( talk) 20:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
More notably, the list of "battleships" in the "Air Superiority" subsection is very misleading. Utah, Limnos, and Kilkis were not battleships when they were sunk. Conti di Cavour was not lost. Roma's guns were not allowed to be manned at the time of her sinking. Schleswig-Holstein was long obsolete at the time of her sinking, and most of the balance of ths ships listed were in port, unable to manoeuver, where every ship is most vulnerable. The three legitimate air-attack sinkings of battleships, those of Prince of Wales, Yamato, and Musashi all required enormous amounts of ordinance, and would not have even been possible without large-caliber aerial torpedoes, which are undeliverable against modern air-defense systems, and undeployable from most jet-powered aircraft. The other argument that is missed in this section is the factor of sustained weight of fire. Not a single battleship-supported amphibious landing has ever been repulsed at the beaches, and this is the reason why. DMS4249 ( talk) 22:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I find it a little odd that MCCDC isn't mentioned at all. Shouldn't the end user requirements factor into the debate?
http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/DDG1000/Requirements_history.htm
Hcobb ( talk) 21:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The GAO's final report in response to the USS Iowa turret explosion examined the efficacy of keeping the Iowa class battleships in operation. The report concluded that the cost of maintaining the aging equipment on the battleships in a safe and mission-effective state was high, and perhaps prohibitive. The report also stated that it was difficult for the Navy to maintain and support a cadre of professional large artillery specialists. This was due to the fact that the only ships in the Navy that required experts in large guns were the few battleships, which in turn meant a reduced opportunity for career advancement for those officers and enlisted personnel assigned to large gun system support positions.
As a result, the GAO noted that it appeared that many of the junior enlisted personnel and officers assigned to the battleships were personnel that no one else wanted, i.e. sent to the battleships because it was a dead-end assignment and these men had no real future anyway because of their disciplinary or attitude problems. As noted in the investigation into the Iowa's explosion, the battleship's top officers had focused more on the ship's missile systems and small-caliber guns at the expense of 16-inch gunnery training and readiness, perhaps because those officers did not perceive any career enhancement to be had in spending much time on 16-inch gun operations. If the Navy decides to reactivate any of the battleships, they are going to have to be aware that maintaining them, including crew training, in the substandard state that the Iowa was in (and I know that some Iowa crewmen would argue that this wasn't the case, but several independent sources say that it was, as well as the Navy's investigation itself) at the time of the explosion is dangerous and reckless.
I understand that this is tangenital to the naval gunfire support debate. So, I'm not sure if it should be covered in the article or not, but I'm just throwing it out there for consideration. Cla68 ( talk) 00:49, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Why does it say the navy is required by law to maintain Iowa and Wisconsin if Wisconsin is a museum now? If a ship is a museum, the navy can't reactivate it, can they? Therefore, I doubt the factual accuracy of the "Recent developments" section.
In 1999 the Marines pressed for a growth in Amphibious assault ships from the 2.07 Marine Expeditionary Brigades they had to the goal of 2.5 and now in the QDR they're fighting a rearguard action to defend 2.0.
And even if they had the ships, the Global War of Terror has left them with no time to train with them.
So since there isn't anything to support anymore, there's no need for a debate so either file this page as history or delete it. Hcobb ( talk) 09:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
NSFS or NSFS? The article uses both. 31.185.191.58 ( talk) 19:02, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think naval gunfire is actually an alternative to naval gunfire. Herr Gruber ( talk) 02:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/07/28/is-americas-naval-supremacy-sinking/ Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Admiral Roughead comments: “The inconvenient truth is that a ship that is half the size doesn’t cost half as much. Deploying more ships is appealing, but to get to areas of interest such as the Middle East, the Western Pacific and the Indian Ocean we must cross vast waters and remain present for extended periods. Size, speed, endurance and lethality matter greatly, especially when forward bases can’t be assured at a time when foreign populations are prickly about sovereignty.”
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This article has had no substantive changes in almost ten years. The debate appears to be over. If this is correct, the article needs to re-written. to put it into the past tense. - Arch dude ( talk) 05:54, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
As it stands, this article is one huge WP:SYNTH. It's not about the debate and does not appear to have any references that are primarily about about the existence of the debate itself. I hope we can salvage the article, since it does provide very useful background for other articles, but unless it can be fixed it must be deleted. Furthermore, the article asserts that the debate is "ongoing" but there have been no substantive edits to it since about 2009, except for a few recent ones by me that do not address this. I think we really need to restructure the article.
Proposed fixes:
I will make anther attempt at this. Please comment. - Arch dude ( talk) 23:09, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes I did mean the Zumwalt-class destroyer, is it a lost cause? I doubt it. Otto Malera already has a round for they Volcano 127mm with those abilites and the 155mm gun can use any NATO 155 including excaliber. So it has uses. Getting back to the subject this article needs to go away. Tirronan ( talk) 18:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I deleted the following from the Naval gunfire support article. It does not belong there. If it belongs anywhere it would be here. However, it's only reference appears to be a primary source. Also my creaky old memory cells seem to remember this material being is this article at one point?
In 2007, a thesis report submitted to the Joint Forces Staff College/Joint Advanced Warfighting School by Shawn A. Welch, a Colonel in the Army National Guard's Corps of Engineers analyzed the current capacity for naval gunfire support (NGS) and made several conclusions based on the progress made since the retirement of the last two Iowa-class battleships. Welch's thesis report, which earned the National Defense Universities award for Best Thesis in 2007, estimated that the full force of DD(X) destroyers needed to replace the decommissioned Iowas would not arrive until 2020–2025 at the earliest, and anotes that the U.S. Navy had not accurately assessed the capabilities of its large caliber gun ships since 1990. The report notes that the Navy has consistently scaled back or outright cancelled programs intended to replace naval gunfire support capacity, in the process making no significant gains for offshore fire support since the retirement of the last Iowa-class battleship in 1992. This failure by the navy to meet Congressional mandates to improve naval gunfire support caused a rift with the United States Marine Corps and to a lesser extent the United States Army; in the case of the former, the concern is great enough that several three and four star generals in the Marine Corps have openly admitted to the press their concern over the absence of any effective ship based gunfire support, and two separate Commandants of the Marine Corps have testified before the Senate Armed Service Committee on the risks faced by the Marines in the absence of any effective naval gunfire support. [1]
References
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
United States battleship retirement debate article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
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i must say a very good article, is it possible to have the article at least nominated for good article status? good job editors/writers i enjoyed reading it. have a nice day —Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.28.16.42 ( talk) 00:52, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
I corrected a couple gramatical errors on this page on 8/7/08. Also, the last section "Recent Developments" suggests the possibility that the Iowa and Wisconsin may be returned to the naval register. While technically this is true in principle, have their been any inklings from congress or the navy that this is even a remote possibility? I feel like this is conjecture and false hope more than anything else. Clearly the author of this page loves battleships (as do I), but I honestly dont see it happening. -EO 8/7/08
Precisely. The only museum ship that I am aware of that is still "combat capable" is USS Constitution, the famous frigate from the War of 1812. The "operational" status of this ship (she is massively obsolete, and no amount of retrofitting would allow her to be useful in modern war, but she could still fight against another 18th cantury warship, which HMS Victory could not.) Placing the battlewagons on the NVR requires the Navy to expend resources both on mainatining the ships but maintaining a supply of spare parts and ammunition, equipment that has not been manufactured in decades. LordShonus ( talk) 09:18, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
Tom, sorry I've littered it with inline comments; seemed the quickest, easiest way. On one level, the writing is lovely; but I still find lots of issues. It's not as easy as usual to characterise them. I think they concern ambiguity and lack of clarity. Can you get someone fresh to sift through it in detail? Tony (talk) 10:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Can we have a section about the use of the LCS Netfires Non-Line-of-Sight Launch System for support of ground forces?
Historically the most effective Naval Fire Support has come from the smaller platforms that were able to operate closer to the beaches. See for example Omaha Beach.
Hcobb ( talk) 14:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
Well The Navy (does Earth have more than one real Navy?) has renamed the concept to Naval Surface Fire Support so perhaps we should rename our page with perhaps a historical footnote to those long ago days when ships supported the troops only with guns.
http://www.fas.org/man/gao/gao95160.htm Naval Surface Fire Support: Navy's Near-Term Plan Is Not Based on Sufficient Analysis (Letter Report, 05/19/95, GAO/NSIAD-95-160).
BTW, was there ever such a day? I seem to recall hearing the phrase "The rockets' red glare" in a song about a long ago event...
Hcobb ( talk) 20:18, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Reading through the article I have a mild concern about POV, what I'm lifting from the text is a bias towards retaining the capability rather than an impartial overview of the debate. I think the main contribution to this is the significant proportion devoted to the work by the Engineer Col. It's not clear whether this was a student submission as part of his college course, or whether he is faculty. I'd assume from the following point about it being best thesis then it's a student submission. Having played the military education game myself I've got some concerns about how meaningful this actually is; selecting and supporting a contentious position gets some profile at the end of the course which helps with promotion and posting negotiations. I'm concerned enough that I'd remove the point about it being best thesis, it doesn't offer anything to this topic and it implies an authority that a student paper doesn't really have.
Of course I say all this from the position of agreeing with the USN view, that retaining these old hulls isn't cost effective and they're an anachronism in modern littorial warfare.
ALR ( talk) 09:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I am nearing the end of a 15 minute break online here, so I want to confirm one thing for the next time I get on: When you say "the theis", are you refering to the paper by Shawn W., the army corps of engineers full bird? TomStar81 ( Talk) 21:55, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
Why was the Thesis removed? The USMC cites it all of the time and it does a great job showing the US Navy has been full of BS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.10.189.29 ( talk) 03:40, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Again Why was the thesis Removed? With Operation Bold Alligator it was brought up several times with the Navy. The Thesis belongs on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.74.37.73 ( talk) 06:49, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
References
NSFS is all about the application of firepower from the sea to the shore. The ability to sink ships with aircraft does not speak to the ability to replace surface ships with aircraft for the land support mission.
For example a surface ship can float offshore for days or weeks while a heavier than air aircraft has a much shorter time on station. Also it has generally been easier to intercept manned aircraft than a shell or unmanned missile and the loss of a manned aircraft can cause political concerns with respect to the pilot and advanced technology of the aircraft.
Hcobb ( talk) 20:43, 7 October 2008 (UTC)
More notably, the list of "battleships" in the "Air Superiority" subsection is very misleading. Utah, Limnos, and Kilkis were not battleships when they were sunk. Conti di Cavour was not lost. Roma's guns were not allowed to be manned at the time of her sinking. Schleswig-Holstein was long obsolete at the time of her sinking, and most of the balance of ths ships listed were in port, unable to manoeuver, where every ship is most vulnerable. The three legitimate air-attack sinkings of battleships, those of Prince of Wales, Yamato, and Musashi all required enormous amounts of ordinance, and would not have even been possible without large-caliber aerial torpedoes, which are undeliverable against modern air-defense systems, and undeployable from most jet-powered aircraft. The other argument that is missed in this section is the factor of sustained weight of fire. Not a single battleship-supported amphibious landing has ever been repulsed at the beaches, and this is the reason why. DMS4249 ( talk) 22:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I find it a little odd that MCCDC isn't mentioned at all. Shouldn't the end user requirements factor into the debate?
http://peoships.crane.navy.mil/DDG1000/Requirements_history.htm
Hcobb ( talk) 21:39, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
The GAO's final report in response to the USS Iowa turret explosion examined the efficacy of keeping the Iowa class battleships in operation. The report concluded that the cost of maintaining the aging equipment on the battleships in a safe and mission-effective state was high, and perhaps prohibitive. The report also stated that it was difficult for the Navy to maintain and support a cadre of professional large artillery specialists. This was due to the fact that the only ships in the Navy that required experts in large guns were the few battleships, which in turn meant a reduced opportunity for career advancement for those officers and enlisted personnel assigned to large gun system support positions.
As a result, the GAO noted that it appeared that many of the junior enlisted personnel and officers assigned to the battleships were personnel that no one else wanted, i.e. sent to the battleships because it was a dead-end assignment and these men had no real future anyway because of their disciplinary or attitude problems. As noted in the investigation into the Iowa's explosion, the battleship's top officers had focused more on the ship's missile systems and small-caliber guns at the expense of 16-inch gunnery training and readiness, perhaps because those officers did not perceive any career enhancement to be had in spending much time on 16-inch gun operations. If the Navy decides to reactivate any of the battleships, they are going to have to be aware that maintaining them, including crew training, in the substandard state that the Iowa was in (and I know that some Iowa crewmen would argue that this wasn't the case, but several independent sources say that it was, as well as the Navy's investigation itself) at the time of the explosion is dangerous and reckless.
I understand that this is tangenital to the naval gunfire support debate. So, I'm not sure if it should be covered in the article or not, but I'm just throwing it out there for consideration. Cla68 ( talk) 00:49, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Why does it say the navy is required by law to maintain Iowa and Wisconsin if Wisconsin is a museum now? If a ship is a museum, the navy can't reactivate it, can they? Therefore, I doubt the factual accuracy of the "Recent developments" section.
In 1999 the Marines pressed for a growth in Amphibious assault ships from the 2.07 Marine Expeditionary Brigades they had to the goal of 2.5 and now in the QDR they're fighting a rearguard action to defend 2.0.
And even if they had the ships, the Global War of Terror has left them with no time to train with them.
So since there isn't anything to support anymore, there's no need for a debate so either file this page as history or delete it. Hcobb ( talk) 09:28, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
NSFS or NSFS? The article uses both. 31.185.191.58 ( talk) 19:02, 6 May 2012 (UTC)
I don't think naval gunfire is actually an alternative to naval gunfire. Herr Gruber ( talk) 02:07, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrybell/2013/07/28/is-americas-naval-supremacy-sinking/ Writing in the Wall Street Journal, Admiral Roughead comments: “The inconvenient truth is that a ship that is half the size doesn’t cost half as much. Deploying more ships is appealing, but to get to areas of interest such as the Middle East, the Western Pacific and the Indian Ocean we must cross vast waters and remain present for extended periods. Size, speed, endurance and lethality matter greatly, especially when forward bases can’t be assured at a time when foreign populations are prickly about sovereignty.”
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(last update: 5 June 2024).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 16:06, 12 May 2017 (UTC)
This article has had no substantive changes in almost ten years. The debate appears to be over. If this is correct, the article needs to re-written. to put it into the past tense. - Arch dude ( talk) 05:54, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
As it stands, this article is one huge WP:SYNTH. It's not about the debate and does not appear to have any references that are primarily about about the existence of the debate itself. I hope we can salvage the article, since it does provide very useful background for other articles, but unless it can be fixed it must be deleted. Furthermore, the article asserts that the debate is "ongoing" but there have been no substantive edits to it since about 2009, except for a few recent ones by me that do not address this. I think we really need to restructure the article.
Proposed fixes:
I will make anther attempt at this. Please comment. - Arch dude ( talk) 23:09, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes I did mean the Zumwalt-class destroyer, is it a lost cause? I doubt it. Otto Malera already has a round for they Volcano 127mm with those abilites and the 155mm gun can use any NATO 155 including excaliber. So it has uses. Getting back to the subject this article needs to go away. Tirronan ( talk) 18:19, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I deleted the following from the Naval gunfire support article. It does not belong there. If it belongs anywhere it would be here. However, it's only reference appears to be a primary source. Also my creaky old memory cells seem to remember this material being is this article at one point?
In 2007, a thesis report submitted to the Joint Forces Staff College/Joint Advanced Warfighting School by Shawn A. Welch, a Colonel in the Army National Guard's Corps of Engineers analyzed the current capacity for naval gunfire support (NGS) and made several conclusions based on the progress made since the retirement of the last two Iowa-class battleships. Welch's thesis report, which earned the National Defense Universities award for Best Thesis in 2007, estimated that the full force of DD(X) destroyers needed to replace the decommissioned Iowas would not arrive until 2020–2025 at the earliest, and anotes that the U.S. Navy had not accurately assessed the capabilities of its large caliber gun ships since 1990. The report notes that the Navy has consistently scaled back or outright cancelled programs intended to replace naval gunfire support capacity, in the process making no significant gains for offshore fire support since the retirement of the last Iowa-class battleship in 1992. This failure by the navy to meet Congressional mandates to improve naval gunfire support caused a rift with the United States Marine Corps and to a lesser extent the United States Army; in the case of the former, the concern is great enough that several three and four star generals in the Marine Corps have openly admitted to the press their concern over the absence of any effective ship based gunfire support, and two separate Commandants of the Marine Corps have testified before the Senate Armed Service Committee on the risks faced by the Marines in the absence of any effective naval gunfire support. [1]
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