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"However, there is at present little sign of any imminent 'crisis'"
Excuse me??? this seems woefully inaccurate, [1]. It should be changed immediately Superdude99 12:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I live here and see no signs of an imminent crisis; just because one of the candidates (well, the main one) happens to be Scottish, doesn't mean Scotland is going to secede from the UK as soon as it can. Besides, a story saying how all's well and good is hardly interesting is it? Especially if the alternative to it contains the phrase 'ethnic cleansing' RHB 18:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A reliable ICM poll says different, 52 per cent of Scots wanting their own country independant, 59 per cent(think about that... 59 PER CENT) of the english want independance for Scotland. [2] [3] You have not been living in a cave, on mars, with your eyes shut and ears plugged? Did you read the article? Superdude99 22:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there is no "imminent crisis", but there does seem to be something brewing, otherwise why the recent dire warnings from Blair and Brown about voting SNP, which I presume is what is prompting the above? The background is that a big vote for SNP in the General Election would reduce any potential Labour majority in the House of Commons and leave a hung parliament or Tory majority more likely. This is seen as a crisis by Blair/Brown not because of concern about Scotland splitting off, which is very unlikely, but because of fear for their own majority. MarkThomas 08:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The chances of a crisis in the UK are incredibly low. Threats of a break-up are almost non-existant, and the only danger of a crisis is in finance and trade. I would only like to state that this article and sound and accurate and should not be changed in any major way. Ninington 10:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Scotland whining about indenpendance when they took England over? When Elizabeth I died she had no children or siblings to give the throne to. So the crown was passed to James VI of Scotland and so he also became James I of England. I am no real fan of the UK breaking up back to their own little countries because generally spliting up makes everything weaker. For example, if there are fifty soldiers preparing to attack a machine gunner 20 feet away and all they have are knives and they split up and went one at a time, they would all die rather than around half of them dying. Emperor Jackal 11:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possibly to produce a graph of the population change in the United Kingdom, as is found in articles like Germany and France? Just to bring unity to the articles, as well as possibly providing useful information. Ignore this if im talking nonesense. LordFenix 19:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
what is the adress and phonenumber for big ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.160.247.13 ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The address is Big Ben, Houses of Parliament, London Town, London 1. The phone number is +44-800-800-BIG-BEN. MarkThomas 23:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
..to find out why Britain recieved such poor results (23rd place) in the Economist's Intelligence Unit Index of Democracy (pdf) report. I have a hard time believing that the UK would be 'less democratic' than Portugal (19th), United States (17th) and Austria (14th), to name a few. ? . Regards, -- BishheartElsie 11:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
"In addition, there are a large number of Indians, mainly from northern India, who make up about 2.0% of the population.[47]" What the hell is this meant to mean? Sorry, it's just that you say 'large number' of Indians - what the hell is so large about 2%? (=0.02=1/50=MINORITY...). OK, so that quantitive assessment is probably not such an objective basis upon which to assign words such as 'large'. But still, I think that, as far as wiki goes, stating that 2% of the population comes from such a background would probably be as objective as things get (not discounting reference [41] which states the following : "Also statistics can be made to say anything.", add an ethnically unrepresentative mix of statisticians, some state racism and media manipulation, and its not too difficult to see that a significant amount of this article is probably BOGUS when it comes to accounting ethnic representation. I think that some minor edits are probably in order... -- AryanNextDoor 19:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
2% of the population in Britain is still a lot of people. Over 1 million by my calculations. Still a minority, of course, but a lot of people. Ninington 10:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
...by various accounts have definitely been POV, especially the addition/removal of adjectives, with 30 edits in the last few hours alone. I would hazard a guess that there is one user using a sockpuppet/IP address to push his views, but I cant be sure, so wont say who. Thanks, RHB 20:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone very anti-British I think. Just rv'ed another of them - thanks for your vigilance for this important page RHB. MarkThomas 22:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This is ongoing, with various inflammatory extremely POVist phrases being inserted such as in the history section, and all from unsigned users - I would be grateful if other editors would monitor as well. Thanks! MarkThomas 19:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
By citing Niall Ferguson who is a widely published and controversial British historian, is the atticle NPOV? I suggest the above refer to the reference they keep citing, the mentioned author is a defender of Imperialism, and this his views can not be NPOV. I insist, that if his book is to be referenced, then the part about stolen has to be too, as only then does it neutralise. Hushing up by using words like "critics of the empire" and Explitation" will not do
AJ2k —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aj2k ( talk • contribs)
AJ2k —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aj2k ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
Why are English, Welsh and Scotch Gealic under Official Languages when the United Kingdom does not have an official language? Arctic Wolf 21:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Doesn't mention the only language which is actually completely native - British Sign Language (BSL).
I think it deserves at least a passing mention.
Is there some Natural History of the UK? Anywhere? None of England, either, it seems. KP Botany 00:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
No Dhekelia and Akrotiri (sovereign bases in Cyprus)? -- A.Garnet 20:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
What is with the map of all the countries English is an official language? English is the native language of England so shouldn't it be on the England page? Marky-Son 02:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
These sentences from the History section seem quite POVist to me: World War II however left the British Isles devastated physically as well as financially, and it was with massive Marshall Plan aid from the United States that allowed the United Kingdom to recover.
Britain's economy however stagnated by the 1970s, in a large part as a result of the massive power labour unions held. The powerful unions deadlocked businesses, creating a very difficult climate to do business in. It was only with the election of Margaret Thatcher and her Conservative government that the power of the unions was rolled back and the British economy began a massive recovery. It is partly from these battles from which Thatcher derived the nickname "The Iron Lady."
For example, the Marshall Plan only loaned money to the UK which was largely spent on nuclear weapons and power. The loan was finally repayed yesterday! Many economists believe that the UK economy recovered strongly in the 50s primarily due to Britain leaving behind rationing, which was not needed, and the central planning of Atlee. The economy boomed strongly in the 60s and entered recession in the early and mid 70s with the rest of the world following the OPEC oil shock; it is also arguable that Britain's strong recovery post 79 was at least partly due to increasing oil revenues from the North Sea which peaked in 1989 at the height of Thatcher's success. Not to say that the social contract and union negotiations coupled with prices and incomes policies didn't have a negative effect, although some think the latter, instituted by Ted Heath and maintained by Callaghan, were what mainly squeezed inflation down, rather than the money supply meddlings of Thatcher's Chancellors. All this just to say that there is controversy. I will think of a suitable way to reword the above pro-Thatcher POV. MarkThomas 15:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The text in question also seemed biased to me - not least because there were at least two serious recessions under Thatcher and Major, not a 'massive recovery'. Guyal of Sfere 13:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I was just about to flag up the part about the Unions and the "Iron Lady" which seems very POV until I realised somebody already had, at least references to a neo-liberal economics paper or article could at least show some sources to back up this Thatcherite history of the late 20th century. MarkThomas is correct that it has been argued that oil revenues helped strengthen the economy, as well as other factors, some would point towards the continued benefit of access to EEC markets following membership in 1973. I propose the user who added this section, Mrosscan, or anyone else who cares to do so, add some sources showing the direct or indirect benefit of monetarist policies (which shouldn't be too hard to find, back issues of The Economist maybe?) and also the contrast between the amount of industrial action taken in the 1970s compared to a lack of it in the 1980s or this part be deleted. Benson85 20:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
She was first named the Iron Lady before becoming Prime Minister, so she cannot have derived the name from her actions after becoming Prime Minister.
Perhaps it stuck because, in some people's eyes, she lived up to it after being elected but derived cannot be right. I would avoid saying the Marshall Plan "allowed" Britain to recover, as it implies recovery *could* not have happened without it. We can't know if that's true. "Helped" Britain to recover? As far as Thatcher's effect on the economy, it is difficult for me to see how anyone could argue the economy was not in a much better shape in 1990 compared to 1979 BUT I am sure there is someone out there who would - and Thatcher's time in office is still a controversial and divisive issue. I would look for some facts, such as UK ranking in world economies in 1979 and in 1990, and put these in - perhaps toning down the phrase "massive recovery" and mentioning the difficulties the economy also faced during some of her time in office. I may have a go at this myself in a day or two, but I'd rather wait and see if there are objections than do it right now. Hobson 01:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I just wanted to say that someone has been changing the languages in the box from "English, Welsh, and Scottish Gaelic" to "English (de facto)". I was wondering if this was decided upon. It seems to me that this is the UK, not England, so Welsh and Gaelic should be added. Perhaps "Englsih (de facto), Welsh, and Scottish Gaelic" would be better? | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 13:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The new map looks great! The addition of colour defiantly improves the aesthetic look of the entire article imho. Canderra 02:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Why's the UK featured as a part of the EU? The EU has no juridic existence, even if it had, which is doesn't, why would the UK be a province of the EU? Why's any country marked as a province of the EU? The Wikipedia is run amok by weird leftist woodstock beatnik pinko type's, but this one takes the cake. NO COUNTRY PARTICIPATING IN THE EU IS A PROVINCE OF THE EU! Heck, until any constitution and juridic existence is approved and rectified the EU doesn't even legally exist, it's a collection of economical and trade agreements - And yes, it's already be democratically blocked by several referendums. Man, the commies that run Wikipedia and beg for cash every Christmas (!) sure can't wait enough for the One World Government BS. I guess i'd at this point ask for Wikipaedia to have a modicum of encyclopaedic decency, but what the hell, i guess the word on the street is right: This IS a mickey mouse encyclopaedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.0.53 ( talk • contribs) 16:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Britain is part of the EU
Just one thing....How come there is no mention of britains hatred of America? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.141.134 ( talk • contribs) 16:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Rudjek That is absurd. The UK government may well be obliged to follow "B" if such laws contadict - in the short term at least. However, the British parliament at Westminster retains sovereignty and if any contradiction emerges Mossley10 17:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC) it has the right to legislate specifically in favour of "A".
Be at peace, English man, UK is part of EU and there's nothing you can do about it. "Oh God, we're losing soveregnity!" Yes you are. At least, something good out of English land.
I agree. We dont have a map showing the UK as part of Nato or the Commonwealth. Someone should change it. The Proffesor 00:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl, I agree with Br2387 that the current map is better than having no map at all. I think it it's the best map so far, see what it used to be like. The aim is to show where in the world the country is, and this map fulfils that purpose. As for why the EU is significant, see the section above this.-- Rudjek 00:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Risking confusing you all with a similar, but different topic, I have edited the UK map that is already up and wonder what you all think. I have included the main population centres (+Dundee, Aberdeen and Bristol). I have also made the colours a bit more vibrant.
Comments please! Rednaxela 17:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I take a wikibreak of nearly a year; and the whole "should the first sentence say state or country?" thing is still around. It'll still be there when we're all dead. For what it's worth (but oh! I hope I'm too lazy to be sucked back into this again!), I'm amused by the notion that banknotes and postage stamps are somehow decisive evidence -- yes, wow, postage stamps are so vastly important; I can't believe I didn't see that before. Amused also by the notion that any country worth living in could be said to have one single unitary culture. Doops | talk 09:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The opening of this country's wiki history section does not the follow the regular format for nation pages and needs change. It opens, irregularly, with an allusion to a definitely POV and unprovable claim : "the nation that created the modern world", and then tries to counterbalance this with an equally irregular, very early use of POV adjectives rather than factual history - "expolitative" , which seems unlike any other major country page I can find. The only solution to this is to take both the POV claim and the sudden injection of POV criticism at the top of a country article in reaction to it, which I can't find a paralell with elsewhere.
Hd240 17:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The current map displaying the UK as well as the EU makes it look like the UK is a province of the EU which is made to look like a country. The EU is far from being a country and is only and organisation the UK has chosen to be a member of. The UK is a member of many other organisations but they are not displayed on any other maps of the UK. The EU may very well some day become what might be considered a country if its members choose to or may never become what might be considered a country but until then the map of the UK should only display the UK, after all this is an article about the UK not the EU and the article gives plenty of information where appropriate informing readers the UK is a member of the EU just as it does concerning its affiliation with other organisations. Somethingoranother 17:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I restored the EU map - all EU nations on Wikipedia now have a variation of this map and it's important to have continuity for casual WP readers who want to see at a glance how the EU nations relate to each other. The issue TharkunColl raised when he removed it about the projection should be raised about the map generally to redraw it. MarkThomas 19:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This is all just POVery by you TharkunColl. Of course it's not "their own business" - Wikipedia exists to tell the truth and the truth is that the over-arching institution of which the UK is a part is now the EU and the maps are harmonised on Wikipedia for all EU countries - why on earth should the UK page be any different? Any other editor is fully justified in reverting your POV changes. MarkThomas 19:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You are the one who is being point of veiw. This is a page on the UK not the EU. We should have a map showing the EU on the EU page. I will restore it to the NPOV version untill a concensus for change to show the EU can be reached. And any other editor is fully justified in reverting your NPOV edits. The Proffesor 01:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You talk about that it is important to keep continuity on related articles then why does the Scotland article keep refusing to use the same UK style map highlighting all other UK countries when all other UK countries use it. Somethingoranother 20:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way the EU does not have legal sovereignty over the UK. It is aggressive insulting to all British citizens to say "Like it or not, the EU now has legal sovereignty over the UK" as though we are an enslaved country. The UK as a member of the EU can freely leave whenever it feels like it. The British Parliament is supreme in the UK and is subservient to no one outside the UK and nothing can over rule it apart from the monarch of England (write to Downing Street and ask them if you think otherwise). Also you say the EU has a foreign policy and its own armed forces. When last I looked the EU has no armed forces under its control and foreign policy is for member states to decide their own, hence the UK invading of Iraq with its own armed forces despite most of the EU opposing it. The UK invasion of Iraq is one example of how the EU holds no power over the UK, has no united policy among members, and controls no armed forces. I also remind you the UK has its own Head of State, its own Head of Government, its own Parliament and government which are not controlled by any other state or organisation, its own currency, its own armed forces. The EU holds no more real power over us than the UN, both of which are just organisations controlled by member states as a system to get what they want. The invasion of Iraq proved just how weak the EU and UN are contrary to what europhiles say. Neither held any power to stop the UK invading Iraq nor had any affect on its policy. Along with the dead EU constitution proving impossible to pass with member states' citizens simply refusing to accept it. All this has made the EU seem weak and unworkable a bit like the League of Nations (which itself was an organisation made mainly from European powers), the EU now after its failing over member differences during the invasion of Iraq and the pathetic attempt to try and have an EU constitution and its resulting death plus the failing economies of those with the Euro has all but nearly made the EU seem like a doomed idea. As I said earlier this page is about the UK not EU. The map displayed at the introduction of the article should display the UK and UK only. All relevance to the EU should be given where relevant. If the EU becomes a state whenever then the map can show the EU so stop pushing POV that the EU is a state. P.S. the CIA World Fact Book does not say the EU is a state it says the EU is an organisation which shares qualities like states do. Also you told someone else to stop pushing POVery when you are the one pushing POVery as I have never seen another internet article solely about the UK which had an map in the introduction showing the UK as part of the EU so that tells you what common consensus is on this and which way is NPOV. Somethingoranother 21:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The EU is effectively a state and that's why for example it has ambassadors at the UN and in the US, China, the Vatican, etc. Also you make a number of false statements about the following, namely: (1) the EU definately does have sovereignty over the UK in a whole range of areas as verified by certain famous legal cases, (2) the British Parliament is not superior to the EU Commission except in those areas where power has been derogated to the UK by decision of the EU (3) the EU does already have it's own armed force and foreign policy, albeit I agree small and so far useless (4) the EU has many direct powers over the UK whereas the UN has none (5) the map does not imply that the UK is part of the EU state, even though it actually is now, but simply harmonises this article with all the other EU country articles. MarkThomas 22:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The EU only has power in areas derogated to it by the British Parliament. The Proffesor 01:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
And those powers were derogated. The EU did not force the UK, the UK joined, and now on several matters the EU does make decisions for all its members, including the UK, and like all member states also the UK must abide those decisions as long as it remains a member state. At present, it still is. Wikipedia states facts, not POVs. — SomeHuman 23 Feb 2007 06:01 (UTC)
MarkThomas is factually wrong in a number of respects. The UK is a treaty signatory to the EU Treaties (a 'member') and gives powers to the EU (and its institutions: the Parliament, the Commission, the ECJ, etc.) as long as it remains a signatory of those treaties. If it Parliament were to rescind those treaties, the UK would cease to to be a member of the EU and the EU institutions would have no powers in respect of the UK. The EU does not have Ambassadors, only representatives (much as do the OECD and other regional organisations). The EU is not a state, does not claim to be one and is not a member of the UN. It does not have an army. It has a <common> foreign policy for some specific issues but each member state has its own foreign policy.
The map does, in my opinion, imply that the UK is a constituent of a bigger state called the EU, thereby misleading casual readers. It also fails to include other significant regional and global organisations of which the UK has membership. And it presents a POV biased towards those who would <like> the EU to be something more than it is. If the maps on all other EU member states have the same failing, then they should all also change to reflect NPOV. SeymourJ 12:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl has just broken 3RR by again uploading the wrong image for the UK as discussed above for the third time - can other editors please help and overturn him. If he changes it again I will report him for the breach. Thanks. MarkThomas 19:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You attempted to use a tactic (making a marginally different edit) to avoid 3RR - many admins would still ban you for that. One more! :-) MarkThomas 07:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
In the rush to make it seem like the EU is a state, and the UK just a province thereof, those with such an agenda have allowed themselves to present a map that is factually incorrect. It may surprise them to learn that Spain is actually quite a lot bigger than Sweden (go and look it up), but if this map is to be believed then Sweden is more than twice the size of Spain. This, to put it bluntly, is a lie. In the preparation of maps it is essential to choose the most appropriate projection for the land area covered. I don't suppose this will make any difference though. Facts and honesty have never been very high on the list of priorities for those who wish to push politics down our collective gobs. Please remember that this article is about the UK, and is not about the UK in the EU. TharkunColl 09:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It's just the projection the map creator has used. Why don't you create one with a different projection and propose it? MarkThomas 10:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Reverted because (pretty obviously) what we mean is that you need to create a new map based on the old design with a new projection for every country in the EU and propose it before insertion. MarkThomas 14:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Many Wikipedia infoboxes contain standard material that is repeated across multiple related pages. It is disruptive to keep changing this in this way without going through the process of at least trying to gain acceptance - one more change and you are reported. Thanks. MarkThomas 15:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The topmost map on the right is the one I created today, specifically to take into account the opinions of those for whom the EU is important. The map below is the one I created yesterday, and the bottom one is the map currently in the article. I am placing my versions here because I suspect very few people have actually seen them, since they were both reverted very quickly.
I have a simple question: which is best? The bottom one is certainly colourful, but in my opinion that's all it has going for it. It is cluttered with rivers and other superfluous features, and most of the countries are all crammed into the bottom half and appear tiny. This is a direct result of the projection used, which is highly inapropriate for the area covered. Sweden, for example, is not twice the size of Spain, but is actually smaller than it. The map, therefore, is untruthful.
It has been argued that since all the other EU countries have versions of the same map, then so should the UK. I have a simple question to this - why? In the interests of truth, and in order to not present a gross distortion of geography, I contend that either of my maps are better. And there is nothing to stop anyone from downloading my map, and adapting it for those other EU countries. TharkunColl 16:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I asked "why" those countries should all have the same map, and instead of answering, you merely restated the question. So I'll ask again: Why should they be harmonised? What is the advantage? TharkunColl 17:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I take your question to mean "why have infoboxes for multiple pages across a related subject that have strong replication?". The reason for doing this is to enable users to be familiar at a glance with the context of pages, to enable them to quickly see what relationship each article has to the overall subject, to be able to browse quickly between pages and to understand the whole topic better. Finally, the EU is sovereign over the UK in many ways and other EU countries and this needs to be reflected therefore with each member country shown as a subdivision of the overall EU entity. MarkThomas 17:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I shall change the colour scheme to something based on shades of red, unless people would prefer something else. I also propose a new suggestion: showing the UK in a dark shade, the EU in an intermediate shade, and the EEA and/or Shengen area (the only difference would be Switzerland) in a light shade. This would have the effect of giving even more info than the current map, and at the same time giving a more rounded impression of the UK's involvement in pan-European international bodies (of which the EU is by no means the only one). So what it really boils down to is this: just because the editors of the articles on other European countries are content with a crappy, contorted, cluttered, and basically untruthful map, does not mean that we here should not strive for excellence. I therefore propose a vote - Accuracy or Conformity. TharkunColl 09:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Schengen is a distraction, it's just a set of rules about border checks. NAFTA, mentioned above, is irrelevant - it is just a trade agreement, whereas the EU is a whole set of interlocking supra-national institutions and even has a parliament. The only other world body remotely analogous to the EU is the UN and since we're all in that, it's pointless adding it to every map. It would be much better not to get distracted and keep with a simple map that shows the EU and the UK within it. Now the problem is that it would also be much better if those were the same across the EU so that a WP user moving from article to article sees the same map. If you have a different map for the UK, you should really create multiples for all the other countries. It would therefore be better to create a variant of the current EU map and recommend it rather than just changing the UK map. See also Talk:European Union. MarkThomas 10:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
So far we appear to have 3 votes in favour of my map, and 1 against. Have I read the most recent two comments correctly? Anyway, as promised, I have re-done it in shades of red (which are hopefully less lurid), and also included the EEA. The fact is that what we think of as a defining characteristic of the EU - the ability to live and work in any participating country with no entry restrictions - is actually a function of the EEA, which is both larger than the EU (as it includes Norway and Iceland), and separate from it. To not show the EEA may give the false impression that the EU is responsible for all these pan-European agreements, whereas this is very far from the case. TharkunColl 13:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The EEA is interesting, but it's still effectively just a distraction; the EEA is now effectively just an "offshore" EU for people who don't want to join but want some of the benefits. TharkunColl I have to say this - your POV is chrystal clear. You can't stand the EU and therefore take every effort to thwart what you wrongly perceive as pro-EU POV - the fact is, even if you don't like it, the UK is in the EU and the EU is a supra-national entitity above the level of it's member countries and the fact that it exists is a fact and the fact that it's a semi-state is a fact. You can't change that with map tinkering on Wikipedia, and the whole thing is sad because casual visitors to WP get misinformed by the POV-ist attitudes you and other EU-bashers offer. MarkThomas 13:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Again irrelevant - the EU is a superpower and supra-national state, the issues of which country people can work in are totally trivial compared with displaying this basic fact on our maps. Anyway, if you want to get the basic mapping changed, you should really discuss it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries where the whole thing is under review - your POVist attempt to alter the maps here at the UK only is effectively a waste of time. MarkThomas 13:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I have nothing against the EEA, we are talking about the context of using this map. I just think it's too minor to be worth including and confuses the average WP user. Also as has been said before, infoboxes frequently carry standardised information repeated in a templated form across many related articles, so your attitude that you only care about this page is against the best interests of Wikipedia as a whole. MarkThomas 14:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
One more thing TharkunColl - you keep repeating as a mantra that the EU does not have an armed force - not that this is the only valid criteria for being a state - but you are (as per usual) misleading people - it does. European Union Force. MarkThomas 14:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
So now you do admit that it does have an armed force, something you previously categorically stated was false? OK. Next subject. Manchester half the size of Birmingham? I take it you are referring to the narrow definitions of local auhority populations? By that criteria, London does not exist and Birmingham is the largest city in the UK and Europe. So shall we have an intelligent discussion about it, or just let you rant on? MarkThomas 14:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Damn, you're as slippery as an eel! :-) As soon as you lose one argument you claim all along you meant another! MarkThomas 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
It was about as intelligent as your "points" that an army is not an army if it has 7000 men and that Manchester is half the size of Birmingham. I too can always have the last word! Enough already. MarkThomas 14:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems that everyone, or mostly everyone, is agreed that my map is actually better. May I suggest, then, that those who feel strongly about having conformity with other articles - if they really do believe my map is better - should go ahead and adapt it for those other countries. My own view is that such rigid, inflexible conformity is not at all necessary for understanding. The two maps, though of different design, quite obviously depict the same area, so what is the problem? My desire is to make this article better, because it's a subject I care about. I don't edit articles for which I have no interest or knowledge. As for the EEA, such a massively important thing as free movement of people and jobs cannot fail to be political, as all this current controversy about Eastern European immigrants proves beyond doubt. It is all part and parcel of European integration, and to make it seem as if this is a purely EU affair is highly misleading. TharkunColl 18:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
An infobox on Wikipedia is a consistently-formatted table which is present in articles with a common subject to provide summary information consistently between articles or improve navigation to closely related articles in that subject. (An infobox is a generalization of a taxobox (from taxonomy) which summarizes information for an organism or group of organisms.)
What's the bit about "consistently-formatted" and "articles with a common subject" and "improve navigation" that you don't understand? MarkThomas 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Another point: The map in the article has no title, so how are people supposed to know what is being indicated? It also appears to be impossible to add a title, which seems to be a result of the type of infobox used. In the absence of a title the only sensible thing to do would be to highlight the UK and nothing else. TharkunColl 00:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, the solution can certainly not be that the UK has a totally unique map format. There must be some consistency. After all, the infobox is also the same for all the countries. The new EU map is much more appealing from an aesthetic point of view. One can discuss if the EU should be shaded or not - in my opinion it should because of the political importance the EU has (after all, most UK laws are nowadays based on some EU directive) - but I'm not dogmatic on this issue. Obviously, if the discussion leads to the conclusions that the map is wished by the majority of EU countries' wikipages, it should also be added on the UK page. Luis rib 23:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a very extensive and detailed discussion on it going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries where the aim is to try to standardise the formats of geo-locator infobox maps for all countries, so after some considerable exposure to this discussion, I now realise we should all participate in that where we have views. Personally think though that the new EU set would be better than the current random acts by in-article editors each doing their own thing, which is why I and I now am glad to see many other editors keep reverting TharkunColl to the Euro base map, which whilst not perfect is better than the random brain outputs of Tharkun. MarkThomas 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
And you are trolling - but you have it is quite clear absolutely no idea what Wikipedia is for. It isn't a collection of entirely separate articles run by maniacs. Which appears to be your wish. MarkThomas 00:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Having attempted, unsuccessfully, to add a title or description to the map, I am now of the opinion that any map that shows the EU (or indeed shades any country other than the UK), without explaining what it is showing, is fundamentally wrong. It was argued earlier that it is desirable to have all EU countries showing the same map because this is less confusing for the readers of Wikipedia. My contention is that showing a map without explaining what it is is infinitely more confusing for the reader, and could actually lead to genuine non-comprehension. Indeed, showing such a map degrades Wikipedia and should never have been contemplated in the first place. Presumably, in the lemming-like rush for conformity at any price such details as telling the reader what he is actually looking at were forgotten, or at best brushed aside as an irrelevant inconvenience. Given, as seems to be the case, that it is not possible to add a title or description to the map as it currently stands within its infobox, I propose that we substitute a map that shades only the UK and nothing else. In the absence of a title or description attached to the map, we can only show what is indicated by the name of the article itself, i.e. United Kingdom. As for whether we use the one I designed for this purpose, or the old distorted map, is - I now believe - a much less important issue, and I would be content with either. I shall first attempt to add the one I designed, however, simply because I think it's better. If this gets continuously reverted without a proper debate, I'll try again with the other one. TharkunColl 10:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.95.201.127 ( talk) 04:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
A I had explained at
23 Feb
2007 05:00 (UTC) here above, the location map that
User:The Proffesor had put in the article makes to any average reader the statement "The UK is not a member of the EU" (a clearly false statement, not a mere POV, thus utterly unencyclopaedic), because all other EU members appear to have adopted the EU-shaded map and all non-members the plain Europe location map. There are very few exceptions and not one makes that kind of false statement: Spain (with an entirely different style of map that does not suggest it to be a member or not to be a member, and David Liuzzo was contacted in order to possibly make a minor modification on his map for Spain so as to fit a particular Spanish concern), Russia which of course extends far into Asia, finally San Marino and Vatican City because there are no maps available, David Liuzzo was contacted...
Though a few contributors are clearly still in disagreement, possibly only one (who got blocked for
4RR while three contributors were reverting his 'old' map back to the Europe of EU location map), an overwhealming number of countries's articles and their respective large number of regular contributors appear to have adopted or at least accepted this uniform style for European countries. The concern for a same map style had been clearly brought forward by defenders of the 'old' maps and by those for the Liuzzo maps.
In order to bring also the UK article in line with this style, and certainly because the present 'Europe location' map style is most clearly to reserved for non-members of the European Union, this change would be required:
In the
United Kingdom infobox,
IF THE PRESENT IS:
|image_map = Europe location UK.png
POSSIBLY FOLLOWED BY:
|map_caption = Map showing the location of the United Kingdom.
IT SHOULD BECOME (AS THE MAP HAD BEEN THERE BEFORE): (copy from here viewed page, not from nowikied source here)
|image_map = EU location UK.png
|map_caption = Location of the [[United Kingdom]] (dark orange)<p style="text-align:left;margin-left:1.2ex;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:-2px;line-height:1em;">– in the [[European Union]] (light orange)<br/>– at the [[Europe|European continent]] (EU + clear) <span style="display:none;">— ([[:Image:EU location legend.png|Legend]])</span></p>
END OF REQUIRED MODIFICATION
(Notice that the disputed bilingual German/English link is not displayed. The caption text gives enough information for the small locator in the infobox. Unfortunately, if one clicks on it to open the large image for closer inspection, one can not reach the then usefull more detailed 'Legend' from there either.)
In case the UK contributors could not possibly accept the de facto consensus for European countries (though I would dare to strongly recommend to follow the dozens of countries), one might replace the location map with the old style
image:LocationUnitedKingdom.png: that style is obsolete for European countries but it does not suggest European Union membership nor denies such. Another emergency rescue fix might be
image:LocationUK.png though it is no standard anywhere. The overall importance is that a location map mustnot make the false statement "this is not a EU member state.": it must either state the truth or not make a statement at all. The change would then be limited to:
IF THE PRESENT IS:
|image_map = Europe location UK.png
AS EMERGENCY RESCUE ONLY, IT CAN BECOME any ONE of these two lines:
|image_map = LocationUnitedKingdom.png
|image_map = LocationUK.png
Perhaps a visualization helps:
![]() Liuzzo style created for all EU members, in case entire-EU colouring were to be accepted; while then all European non-EU members would use the other Liuzzo version → |
![]() Liuzzo style created for all European non-EU members; and extra only in case the EU-colouring were not to be accepted, also for all EU members. ↑ Unacceptable for UK article ↑ |
Most European countries use the Liuzzo maps the way these were originally intended: with the entire EU coloured only for EU-member states and uncoloured for the other countries (the few exceptions do not use any Liuzzo style map); as long as this situation remains, usage of the second map for a EU member (e.g. the UK) is falsifying information and absolutely inacceptable, regardless one's personal views: If the UK uses a Liuzzo map, it can only be the first (EU coloured) style unless all other EU countries would stop using that first style as well. Both series must remain available for each EU country because the maps on Wikimedia Commons are also used by other language Wikipedia's at which the other choice might be made. |
A Liuzzo map as the one on the left simply does not exist for a dark orange Switzerland, such would be no less or more acceptable than only the UK using the map to the right. | ||
![]() 'old' style (assumed obsolete for European countries, but it still has its adepts and is undisputedly strictly neutral) |
![]() TharkunColl style (a hybrid for European countries, depicting the European continent much like the Liuzzo maps while its 'old' style colours and little detail warrants it to be undisputedly strictly neutral; the map was presented on the UK talk page though did not receive much enthousiasm; it may not have versions for any other countries) |
![]() Rei-artur style, recent (which was not sufficiently discussed generally and did never appear preferred or discussed for the UK, the reserved image space did not yet get a proper map for the UK (see here - available maps in Rei-artur style are undisputedly strictly neutral for EU matters) |
Kind regards. — SomeHuman 26 Feb 2007 02:11 (UTC)
Assuming this is the chat for the current map (there is rather a lot of it) the current map legend uses the colour "camel" which is not one I've ever heard of. I always thought it was an animal. Maybe light orange would be a better description? Micah23 17:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The map does, in my opinion, imply that the UK is a constituent of a bigger state called the EU, thereby misleading casual readers. It also fails to include other significant regional and global organisations of which the UK has membership. And it presents a POV biased towards those who would <like> the EU to be something more than it is. If the maps on all other EU member states have the same failing, then they should all also change to reflect NPOV. SeymourJ 12:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed on the Scotland article editors won't allow the fact box map of Scotland to display the rest of the UK in a shaded colour, making Scotland seem like a separate country outside of the UK. Can editors from here who support union the UK please help make sure that UK country fact boxes keep the rest of the UK shaded in a lighter colour especially with how popular Wikipedia is on the internet now and at a crucial time for union of the UK it's silly and dangerous to the UK for people to push separatist POV on UK articles unless people want to see the future of the UK become like that of the Balkans. Please help keep the UK together for everyone's sakes.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.215.171 ( talk)
I'm rather confused about this. It might just be due to that I'm an American (and used to a legislative government-- the UK's government confuses me no end), but how can this article assert that "God Save the Queen" is the national anthem solely through tradition? (That's the only reason that's given; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_kingdom#_note-60)
It seems to me that " Jerusalem" (popular song; it's used as England's cricket team's anthem), " Land of Hope and Glory" (It's used as the anthem for England at the Commonwealth Games), and " Rule Britannia!" have just as good a claim through tradition as "God Save the Queen." I don't know what changes should be made to the article (if any), but I would like to have this cleared up. Maybe the others should be mentioned as alternitaves. The Luizer 18:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. I didn't seem to notice that LoHaG and Jerusalem are peculiarly English, not British. Sorry about that. I also understand the "Unwritten constition" idea, though I think it's too loose to hold the government in check. (But, that's not my business. That's up to you folks.) What I don't understand is how I'm supposed to find out the exact prodecures and powers of the different branches of the government if they've never been laid down in one place. Parliament's website is hopelessly convoluted to me. I can't find out how someone becomes the Gentleman if the Black Rod or what names you're not allowed to call an MP on the floor, although it's information you'd need to know to serve. More on topic, I associate "Rule Britannia!" with the UK more than "God Save the Queen," if only because we sing the same tune here as "My Country 'Tis of Thee." It does seem that "GStQ" is more "official" if only because it's used more. The Luizer 16:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one to find 'billion' ambiguous wherever it's read? At school I was taught that it was 1012 and that 109 was an American thing. I know that the American usage is becoming more prevalent in the English language (though, interestingly, in many other European languages, words that sound like 'billion' (eg the Swedish 'biljon') mean 1012, with words sounding like the English 'milliard' (unambiguously 109 - eg the Swedish 'miljard') mean 109. The older the Brit the more likely he is to find 'billion' ambiguous. THEREFORE (and there is a point to this) I propose that the 'billion' in this article, which is ambiguous in UK contexts, be changed to the entirely unambiguous 'milliard'. Matthew 11:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
For what its worth, I agree that milliard is out-dated. I'm 36 and I've never used it. However, I was always taught that a billion was a million million - a million to the power of 2 ("bi"), a trillion was a million to the power of 3 ("tri") etc. It makes far more sense logically to me that we should only have invented new words for numbers once we had run out of descriptions. Therefore "thousand million" is always how I have viewed and described numbers of that magnitude.
I think it should be included in a Manual of Style for UK-related articles. -- Mal 18:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to start a debate regarding the use of a new template on various UK settlement pages, to include the union flag at the bottom, unlike the English version ( Template:Infobox England place) in the hope that it will increase public awareness of the difference between England and Britain. In order to do this a concensus is necessary and I would therefore appreciate any possible support. A copy of this template can be seen on the Market Deeping page or here is the actual template Template:Infobox England place with UK flag for UK map. The current use of the England flag at the bottom of such tables lacks continuity between the map of the UK and the English flag, creating confusion, but since there are two templates maybe individual pages could decide or, a template could be created with both. Many Thanks. -- Ash online 17:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is the England Infobox being singled out here? The user who is pushing for for this, openly states on their user page that they wish to remove every reference to England and the reasoning used on this page was suggested by another user. The fact that each infobox for England, Scotland & Wales states that each is the constituent country and the UK is the sovereign states seems to be being ignored here.
To avoid any possible misunderstanding - the comments below this are mine, the ones above this are not. It would avoid confusion if every editor signed their comments. Hobson 12:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you also suggesting removing the Scottish and Welsh flags from the infobox for Scottish and Welsh settlements? If not, then English entries should surely stay as they are. Alternatively, every entry could have both the relevant nation flag (English/Scottish etc) and the UK flag, as Majab suggested. Presenting English settlements as UK settlements and Scottish settlements as Scottish settlements would not reduce confusion about the difference between England and the UK (or Britain), I think. Hobson 01:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
for: either both flags
or : remove flags from tables altogether
there is no need in my view to stick flags on EVERYTHING! It just creates arguments and hastle, especially over a divisive issue like the UK and the status of its parts/home nations. Not all countries have flags in their town templates. However, it's really not that important, since as one user said the template does recognise the UK as sovereign. Lofty 15:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
If Scotland articles stick a Scottish flag at the end of every fact box then UK and England articles should do the same. What's with the whole anti English/UK thing?
Somethingoranother
23:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the lead paragraph, "The United Kingdom is a political union made up of three constituent countries: England, Scotland, and Wales, and also that part of the Irish Province of Ulster known as Northern Ireland." I'm not too happy about this. I understand why Northern Ireland is not listed directly alongside England, Scotland and Wales, but why bring up the "Irish Province of Ulster"? In my opinion, it only creates confusion, which is something that should be avoided in the lead paragraph. The specifics of Northern Ireland are explained further down in the article, and in our Good Article on Northern Ireland. Furthermore, the country is called the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", not the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and that part of the Irish Province of Ulster known as Northern Ireland." I believe that it would suffice for the lead paragraph to say something to the extent of "The United Kingdom is a political union made up of three constituent countries: England, Scotland, and Wales, and also the administrative division Northern Ireland." Any thoughts? A ecis Brievenbus 11:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland remains part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom, and it is hereby affirmed that in no event will Northern Ireland or any part of it cease to be part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom without the consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1 to this Act.
It would appear to be a dominion part of the United Kingdom. Any questions? :-) MarkThomas 12:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Northern Ireland is 6 years longer in the United then Scotland yet Northern Ireland is listed last. SGAtlantis 00:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The table states that Welch and Cornish are de facto official languages too. Isn't that confusing officially recognised minority languages with official languages? (The article official language says: "Officially recognized minority languages are often mistaken for official languages. However, a language officially recognized by a state, taught in schools, and used in official communication is not necessarily an official language."). Marcoscramer 01:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The article states;
London is by far the UK's largest city. After that, the definition of largest is dependent upon the criteria used, but no one city stands out as larger than the others.
I don't understand this. As anyone who has spent long periods in various urban centres round the UK knows, Birmingham is significantly larger than it's nearest rivals in both size and population. Is this easily verifiable and common fact some bone of contention here? Because it shouldn't be.-- Zleitzen ( Talk) 09:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
At the moment, editor TharkunColl is listing Glasgow as third-largest city in the UK, which is obviously wrong. He states on Talk:Second city of the United Kingdom that he is drawing figures from List of English cities by population although this page warns at the top that they disregard conurbation populations - in other words, he is basing his edit on local authority populations. These are widely disputed as being an objective guide to the size of British cities, whose built-up areas frequently exceed (significantly) local authority boundaries. Therefore can other editors take a look at this please and make adjustments? I proposed what I hoped was a more objective summary and was (against WP:CIVIL) accused by TharkinColl of "wrecking the page", which I don't think is fair - I was trying to make it objective and Wikipedian. Please review, thanks. MarkThomas 13:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, they are adjusted local-authority populations - I quote directly from the introduction of the article:
"These figures, on the other hand, should also not be confused with the population of conurbations. The original ONS statistics were calculated and presented in that format; but in this list urban areas and urban sub-divisions recognised as towns with a population greater than 100,000 have been extracted and listed separately. Thus, for instance, the Greater Manchester conurbation has a far larger population than that accredited to Manchester here; this list counts towns such as Salford, Sale and Stockport separately."
To just take this in the introduction of United Kingdom as fact gives a very misleading impression. There is debate about which is second and third, but the usual contenders for that title are Birmingham and Manchester, not Glasgow. MarkThomas 13:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The point is not if I confuse it - the point is what the average reader of Wikipedia coming to this article thinks it means. Specialists argue about what it means - you are taking one narrow interpretation of it and dumping it into the article because of your intense pro-Birmingham POV. I even agreed in my edit that the conurbation of Birmingham is second-biggest and you deleted that and replaced it with a narrow and distorted view. Most average people don't think it means "ONS scientifically-adjusted LA boundary+related towns" - they think it means the biggest and most important urban areas and that in Britain means either Birmingham or Manchester. MarkThomas 13:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a pro-Manchester POV any different to a majority of the British population who poll after poll shows consider Manchester to be Britain's second city. And your latter point was exactly what my edit attempted to explain, which you deleted! MarkThomas 13:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
My POV is that Brummies tend to be slightly over-confident that they are the second city of Britain - that's different to a pro-Manchester POV, but it's a difference you don't get, which is fine. And the criteria you draw on for a list of city populations are misleading to average readers, since even a quick glance at a map shows Manchester is far bigger than Glasgow. Now we should stop this and leave it to other editors to decide, but I would ask editors to review TharkunColl's change to this and see if you think it's correct. Thanks. MarkThomas 13:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
One problem with the TC edit is that he's not using UK figures - he's using English City ONS figures + a figure from Glasgow based on different criteria. If we're going down this path, we should be using this page as the source: List of metropolitan areas of the UK. MarkThomas 14:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be interesting to have this. MarkThomas 17:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I hope everyone's happy with the change I've just made. It should now be clear that the figures given are those of conurbations, with links to the conurbation pages given. It also mentions the cities within each conurbation, and so avoids the Birmingham = West Midlands and Manchester = Greater Manchester error, which is demonstrably false, but avoids using any figures for the actual cities, whether Local Authority (like
List of English districts by population) or Urban Sub-Area (like
List of English cities by population).
Fingerpuppet
18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good edit and it's more in line with city size comparisons elsewhere in WP, where they usually take Metropolitan Urban Areas as the criteria. MarkThomas 18:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I am posting my edit here so people can see it in case it gets reverted. If this version does not seem reasonable then perhaps it could be discussed a little. I hope we can at least agree that the the city populations should be used in a section dealing with city populations - if conurbations are also important, we can have that too. Hobson 23:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
(cities section below)
The four capitals of the United Kingdom's constituent countries are London (England), Edinburgh (Scotland), Cardiff (Wales) and Belfast (Northern Ireland). London is by far the UK's largest city, with a population of more than seven million. Birmingham is next with around 970,000, followed by Glasgow, with a population of around 578,000.
There are many different statistics and debates on which cities are the UK's largest, due to differences between the administrative boundaries and metropolitan areas of cities, and because of merging of settlements into conurbations. After London, the West Midlands conurbation (which contains the cities of Birmingham and Wolverhampton) is the second largest urban area with around 2.28 million, followed by the Greater Manchester Urban Area (which contains the cities of Manchester and Salford) with 2.24 million.
There is considerable dispute over which is the second city since this concept includes cultural factors. [1] Hobson 23:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Myself, Gwernol and Majabl have reverted the following addition by 88.109.86.234. This has been adding in again by Somethingoranother " Information given is completely backed up by references to the CIA World Fact Book. Stop pushing Pro Euro POV and denying factual information which balances the article and creates NPOV". The edit is contention is:
The supplied two references do not back up the three claims, in turn:
Without references that support the claims they should be removed. Thanks/ wangi 23:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say the UK's economy had grown faster than the Eurozone I said Since the Euro was launched major economies in the Eurozone have generally struggled while the United Kingdom's economic growth rate has been faster than any other major European economy emphasis on major which means faster than Germany, France, and Italy, which all use the Euro. 88.109.86.234 00:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The first source from The CIA World Fact Book article says: The economy is one of the strongest in Europe; inflation, interest rates, and unemployment remain low. The relatively good economic performance has complicated the BLAIR government's efforts to make a case for Britain to join the European Economic and Monetary Union (EMU). Critics point out that the economy is doing well outside of EMU, and public opinion polls show a majority of Britons are opposed to the euro. It explicity says the majority of British people oppose the Euro. The second source from the CIA World Fact Book shows a table which clearly shows the UK's economy has a higher growth rate than Germany, France, and Italy. I love how you try to say the CIA isn't a reliable source lol. And if you want i'll paste the whole economic growth table here if you're disputing what it says. Germany, the UK, France, and Italy are the major economies of Europe because they're the only 4 that hover around the $2 trillion mark. I love how you tried to dispute that too lol. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
88.109.86.234 (
talk •
contribs).
Could someone please explain why the intro says (incorrectly) that the UK is the second most populous state in the EU, yet when I go to the edit page to change it to 'third most populous', it already says third there (but not on the real page)?-- Triglyph 22:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I stuck in the very slightest mention of cornwall into the UK history under the section of acts of union etc, because there is a very reasonable academic debate about it's status, albeit not one with any sense of urgency. If anyone has a thought as to a better way of mentioning it discretely without distroying a well-written article, naturally, discuss. My thought is that it should be mentioned in passing at least, not least since the laws giving it in theory quite a reasonable level of autonomy are still on the statute books. Graldensblud 00:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence in the article says the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is shortened into certain terms including the incorrect term Great Britain. The article should promulgate proper usage. If you want to keep it in, why not say incorrectly shortened to Great Britain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mickraus ( talk • contribs) 11:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
I think it may also need to be added that the United Kingdom is very rarely shortened to "Great Britain", most people who generally shorten the names of countries and not use the official name usually shorten it just to "Britain" which, since "Britain" has no legal meaning, is not really incorrect or correct, exept for the fact that citizens of the UK are legally refered to as "British Citizens". I think maybe the article should stop saying that the United Kingdom is shortened to "Great Britain" completly, as I said, it happens very rarely. Whats more, the citation the user who wrote this comment uses to justify his claims that the United Kingdom is sometimes shortened to Great Britain has a diagram which clearly shows that Great Britain is merely one part of the United Kingdom, the other being Northern Ireland. - Supertask 23 Feburary 2007 18:14
Great Britain and the UK are different things. I agree with Graldensblud, although it should be common knowledge that Great Britain includes the Republic of Ireland and the UK does not. Ninington 16:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi The top righthand bar states that the uk top level domain is co.uk. Most sources i have read state that the tld is .uk not .co.uk. i suggest that this is changed from .co.uk to .uk
Ckeene 15:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
.org.co.uk, .org.uk and .dk.uk are other site URLs using .uk. You are technically correct in that .co.uk is not the only UK domain, but it is the most common.
The problem is just lack of editors with the right map-drawing skills and the time to create a set of maps for Europe to come forward with alternate proposals. In the meantime, infoboxes are meant to provide consistent information across related articles, which these maps do. They aren't perfect, but they're a start. If you want better maps, why not create some? MarkThomas 08:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The countries of the UK have been added to the new Category:Germanic culture by an editor. Please discuss this to ascertain whether this is appropriate or not - and act accordingly.-- Zleitzen (talk) 13:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Adding the UK to Germanic Culture category contradicts the description of Germanic Culture on its own page, as it is focused around the German language. "Germanic culture (German: Deutschsprachige Kultur) is a term that refers to the heritage and worldview of the people from the German-speaking world, or Deutschsprechende Welt." UK does not belong. Hughsheehy 11:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The individual behind these user names is causing real trouble with this article. They were responsible for the lockdown [4] that occurred a couple of days ago, because they kept reverting to "their" state of the article, over twenty times in one 24 hour period. When banned because of 3RR violations, this user simply creates sockpuppet accounts or arranges for new IPs from which to continue their edit wars.
This individual's latest unconstructive behaviour is to repeatedly add "The City of London is a major business and commercial centre, ranking alongside New York City as the leading centre of global finance", to the "economy" section, despite the fact that two paragraphs later, it says "The service sector of the United Kingdom is dominated by financial services, especially in banking and insurance. London is one of the world's largest financial centres with the London Stock Exchange, the London International Financial Futures and Options Exchange, and the Lloyd's of London insurance market all based in the city".
Any suggestions on what we can do with this contributor?
Gsd2000 02:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Can't you ban IP Addresses? JoWal 17:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The following sentence, located at the end of the second-to-last paragraph under History, is wordy and unclear:
Following a period of economic stagnation in the 1970s after global economic downturn, and the rule of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, for critics and supporters heralding respectively greater division and economic recovery, the preceding decade has been dominated by the leadership of Tony Blair.
It should be re-written to something more along the lines of:
The United Kingdom faced a period of economic stagnation in the 1970s after global economic downturn, which the rule of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s attempted to assuage. Thatcher's free-market strategy for economic recovery gave way to more moderate reform. The preceding decade has been dominated by the leadership of Tonay Blair and his "third way" economic policies.
or something like that. I think the sentence as it stands is simply confusing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.230.174.92 ( talk) 19:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
They seem to mean 'the past ten years'.
Under the photograph of the current monarch, the name given is "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" "Her Majesty" needs to be removed from the caption as it suggests subservience to the British crown.
For instance, beneath the photograph of the current Dalai Lama we see the caption "The 14th and current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso (born 1935)." without "His Holiness." The current Catholic Pope is merely designated "The current Pope is Benedict XVI...". While these are religious examples, we find the lack of full-designation in the Saudi Arabia page where the current king is referred to as simply "King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia" rather than "The custodian of the Two Holy Mosques", etc. There are more examples.
This disproportionate caption was evidently created by an enthusiast, and appears to be spam.
On the current monarch's entry (under the same portrait, mind you) the less obsequious caption reads:"Elizabeth II wearing the Imperial State Crown and fur cape and holding the Sceptre with the Cross and the Orb at her Coronation (2 June 1953)"
Which is sufficient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.234.147 ( talk • contribs)
"Dieu et mon droit" is actually an ancient spelling of "Dieu est mon droit" and therefore should be translated by "God is my right". By adopting this motto, Richard I meant that he was king of England by the grace of God and owed nothing to the king of France. See [5] for more explanations.
-- 156.18.19.12 22:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to standardise the terminology used in the constituent countries' articles by discussing it here in the UK talk page, rather than each individual article debating it separately. The present situation is that England is a country and constituent country, Scotland is a nation and constituent country, Wales is a constituent country and Northern Ireland is a part of the UK. These discrepancies will only lead to confusion for people trying to inform themselves about the structure of the UK. What do other people think? AlexOUK 09:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
On a similar note, how come in the political divisions section of this article; England is listed as a Kingdom, but Scotland is listed as a realm? I agree (to some extent) that Wales is a principality and that Northern Ireland is a province, but I don't understand why Scotland is shown in a light which is dimmer than England's? -- MC 18:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In what kind of sense the UK is a sovereign state? As part of the EU it has transfered considerable parts of politics to Brussels and other EU institutions. It should be rephrased. 84.189.97.252 00:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Who removed country from the intro? I thought the consensus was that country was OK? I can't find any discussion regarding its removal. AlexOUK 10:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The opening section of United Kingdom does not currently conform with WP:LEAD, and in turn is in breach of the WP:GA terms. Articles must have a maximum of four paragraphs for the lead.
Perhaps the small amount of info on the constitutional monarchy status could be merged somehow? Jhamez84 15:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering if the UK's sectarian constitution and the fact of an established church in England is adequately covered. Even just the fact of an established church is rare (a few Euro countries, Saudi Arabia and Iran, etc.), but the fact that the UK has a constitution that excludes the Head of State either being, or marrying anyone, from possibly the largest religious group in the country is highly unusual and surely should be covered in some depth. Hughsheehy 17:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The footnotes at the bottom of the infobox take up a significant chunk of the infobox. It would be better to incorporate them into the main references section at the bottom. Is there any good reason to keep them in their current location? Green Giant 13:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The largest Mountain in Great Britain is not Scaffell Pike, I'm only 15 and I know that. It is Ben Nevis in Scotland —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.109.5.66 ( talk) 19:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
i changed the beginning to try and make it clearer and less cluttered. thank you! Why oh why not? 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I found some of the history - but what you've ended up with here reads like crap. Seriously - it's not good! I'll do a little compromise, and see what you think.... Why oh why not? 23:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sorry i was rude - i guess i just am. ANyhoo.. it seems to be a fucking wiki epedemic to say something and then have some bullshit explanation in parentheses - i think that makes it look goddam awful. If everyone wants it to look that way, then hey ho, whatever.... but it doesn't have to be that way. It's also really friggin' confusing because it says that UK is Britian, then it says the UK is Britain + Northern Ireland. I think there's a contradiction in there - it certainly doesn't make much sense to me... ho hum. Have a nice day. Why oh why not? 02:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I have discovered an orphaned article on Social structure of Britain. I'm not sure what to do with it, so am listing it here for people's attention. Bluap 04:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow editors. A straw poll has opened today (27th March 2007) regarding the use of flags on the United Kingdom place infoboxes. There are several potential options to use, and would like as many contrubutors to vote on which we should decide upon. The straw poll is found here. If joining the debate, please keep a cool head and remain civil. We look forward to seeing you there. Jhamez84 11:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just looked at the map in high resolution and noticed that whoever made it has made a fundamental error. He has shaded the Channel Islands pink, as if they were in the EU. It's odd that he should have made this error since he correctly shaded the Isle of Man white. Still, whatever the reason, we need to get rid of it. TharkunColl 14:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The UK is a collection of states in their own right. Even the '10 Downing Street' website gives: "The UK also has 14 Overseas Territories (OTs) spread throughout the globe. They range from the tiny island of Pitcairn with its 54 inhabitants, set in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, to Bermuda, which has a population of 60,000 and is one of the world's major financial centres." 87.102.19.189 13:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
...
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
14:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't ever visit a Glasgow pub or a Philately CountryDefinitives convention without a stab-prof vest (wan smile).
More seriously, you'll note my last paragraph: "As far as national identities go, things are even more complicated and shifting but I just don't have the time to explain this..."
I still am time poor and I agree that there are at least four nations where I live. I can cheer on the British and Irish Lions rugby team, root for Scotland in the Six nations, have the pleasure of listening to the national news on Radio 4 and, if I live long enough probably sing an EU National Anthem. Few non-mathematical human constructs are black and white and categories overlap and mingle.
My personal opinion is that the USA is both sufficiently patriotic, ignorant and mono-cultural to regard itself as one country but I really suggest you don't test your theories in either the UAE or Antwerp. The UK, like most about it, is a bit of an odd-man-out. It's one country when it wants to be (when the chips are down it fights as one country) but is lucky enough to be able to have genuine "home internationals" in football [unlike the fake "World series" of Baseball.
Countries are born and die all the time. Cornwall was a country once (and may be again, but not in my lifetime). Yugoslavia is probably dead and buried for all time. Countries and nations are predominantly creatures of emotion and feeling. If enough people are willing to shed blood (theirs or someone elses) in the cause of an entity they believe to be a country then, voila! you've got yourself a country! Germany or Israel, It's only really islands (geographic or linguistic or racial) that tend to be natural countries or nations.......
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
16:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The result of the little edit war in the intro is now a garbled sentence. It originally said (including MarkThomas's minor improvement): "The UK also has fourteen overseas territories, including Bermuda, Gibraltar, Pitcairn and the Falkland Islands which are all remnants of the former British Empire which was, at its height, the world's most extensive.", but now reads "The UK also has fourteen overseas territories, including Bermuda, Gibraltar and various archipelagoes such as Falkland, BIOT and Pitcairn all of which are remnants of the former, world's most extensive, British Empire." The original wording was much better, in my opinion: the final clause doesn't read well. Also, "BIOT" seems to repeatedly creep into this sentence - it's a completely non-notable acronym, and given that there are only fourteen, one doesn't really need to list five here. Arguably Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands and Pitcairn are the most "famous" and the list can be limited to those four. I would change all of this myself except that I've already made three reversions on this article today. Gsd2000 20:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Another example of bad phrasing is 'the former British Empire'. As the 'British Empire' has never existed as a formal entity, it can't sensibly be described as 'former'. Pitcairn is as much a part of the British Empire as it was in 1920, for example.-- 86.31.234.172 22:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I sympathise with your point of view that it may at first sight be irrelevant that they are archipelagoes but in actual fact it is because of the historical power and spread of the Royal Navy that they became colonial outposts and also perhaps relevant to their current status and political wishes.
The fact that we have TWO articles on BIOT (off to cross-reference) makes my POV about notability for me.
However, I do need to criticise my first suggested sentence above as inaccurate.
It would need to be even more tortuous and long-winded to be accurate:
...
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
01:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Good effort!
Why are we mentioning those particular 4 out of 14?
Why do you wish to drop the internal links?
Personally, I would approve
If that sentence is acceptable to you then I suggest we need to wait 100 hours to see what, if any, other POV's evangelise....
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
02:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have altered the section to get rid of "former, world's most extensive, British Empire", which sounds a little as if Britain had the most extensive British Empire ever. Which is true! But silly. The word "former" is redundant, given that the piece already states these 14 territories are remnants of that empire. However, this is not my preferred wording. It's just an attempt to get rid of what I think is a badly-written sentence immediately. I would have modern geography and political history in separate paragraphs. So, for example:
Hobson 19:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't agree AJ-India, I think it is roughly about the right length for a major country of Britain's historical and present-day stature. I would compare it for example with India which has a much longer introduction. Also it's important to realise that many editors and casual readers are often confused about the precise nature of the concept of "United Kingdom", "Britain", "England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland", "other territories", etc and the monarchy, so the existence of the first para is useful in exploring this. That's not to say that small changes couldn't be made but I would be against a major diminution of the lead. MarkThomas 08:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be used on the map to refer to a rather sickly colour that's a mixture of flesh, pink, and all sorts of things. Let's get rid of it. TharkunColl 23:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Canary Wharf, home of the three tallest buildings in britain.
Lies.
The tallest building in britain is now in manchester. Someone update this.
It's fairly simple: Camel is a browny colour, commonly seen as the colour of a CAMEL. Ninington 11:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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"However, there is at present little sign of any imminent 'crisis'"
Excuse me??? this seems woefully inaccurate, [1]. It should be changed immediately Superdude99 12:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I live here and see no signs of an imminent crisis; just because one of the candidates (well, the main one) happens to be Scottish, doesn't mean Scotland is going to secede from the UK as soon as it can. Besides, a story saying how all's well and good is hardly interesting is it? Especially if the alternative to it contains the phrase 'ethnic cleansing' RHB 18:19, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A reliable ICM poll says different, 52 per cent of Scots wanting their own country independant, 59 per cent(think about that... 59 PER CENT) of the english want independance for Scotland. [2] [3] You have not been living in a cave, on mars, with your eyes shut and ears plugged? Did you read the article? Superdude99 22:26, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that there is no "imminent crisis", but there does seem to be something brewing, otherwise why the recent dire warnings from Blair and Brown about voting SNP, which I presume is what is prompting the above? The background is that a big vote for SNP in the General Election would reduce any potential Labour majority in the House of Commons and leave a hung parliament or Tory majority more likely. This is seen as a crisis by Blair/Brown not because of concern about Scotland splitting off, which is very unlikely, but because of fear for their own majority. MarkThomas 08:21, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The chances of a crisis in the UK are incredibly low. Threats of a break-up are almost non-existant, and the only danger of a crisis is in finance and trade. I would only like to state that this article and sound and accurate and should not be changed in any major way. Ninington 10:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Why is Scotland whining about indenpendance when they took England over? When Elizabeth I died she had no children or siblings to give the throne to. So the crown was passed to James VI of Scotland and so he also became James I of England. I am no real fan of the UK breaking up back to their own little countries because generally spliting up makes everything weaker. For example, if there are fifty soldiers preparing to attack a machine gunner 20 feet away and all they have are knives and they split up and went one at a time, they would all die rather than around half of them dying. Emperor Jackal 11:52, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Would it be possibly to produce a graph of the population change in the United Kingdom, as is found in articles like Germany and France? Just to bring unity to the articles, as well as possibly providing useful information. Ignore this if im talking nonesense. LordFenix 19:03, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
what is the adress and phonenumber for big ben —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.160.247.13 ( talk • contribs) 22:20, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The address is Big Ben, Houses of Parliament, London Town, London 1. The phone number is +44-800-800-BIG-BEN. MarkThomas 23:26, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
..to find out why Britain recieved such poor results (23rd place) in the Economist's Intelligence Unit Index of Democracy (pdf) report. I have a hard time believing that the UK would be 'less democratic' than Portugal (19th), United States (17th) and Austria (14th), to name a few. ? . Regards, -- BishheartElsie 11:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
"In addition, there are a large number of Indians, mainly from northern India, who make up about 2.0% of the population.[47]" What the hell is this meant to mean? Sorry, it's just that you say 'large number' of Indians - what the hell is so large about 2%? (=0.02=1/50=MINORITY...). OK, so that quantitive assessment is probably not such an objective basis upon which to assign words such as 'large'. But still, I think that, as far as wiki goes, stating that 2% of the population comes from such a background would probably be as objective as things get (not discounting reference [41] which states the following : "Also statistics can be made to say anything.", add an ethnically unrepresentative mix of statisticians, some state racism and media manipulation, and its not too difficult to see that a significant amount of this article is probably BOGUS when it comes to accounting ethnic representation. I think that some minor edits are probably in order... -- AryanNextDoor 19:40, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
2% of the population in Britain is still a lot of people. Over 1 million by my calculations. Still a minority, of course, but a lot of people. Ninington 10:47, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
...by various accounts have definitely been POV, especially the addition/removal of adjectives, with 30 edits in the last few hours alone. I would hazard a guess that there is one user using a sockpuppet/IP address to push his views, but I cant be sure, so wont say who. Thanks, RHB 20:20, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
Someone very anti-British I think. Just rv'ed another of them - thanks for your vigilance for this important page RHB. MarkThomas 22:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
This is ongoing, with various inflammatory extremely POVist phrases being inserted such as in the history section, and all from unsigned users - I would be grateful if other editors would monitor as well. Thanks! MarkThomas 19:09, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
By citing Niall Ferguson who is a widely published and controversial British historian, is the atticle NPOV? I suggest the above refer to the reference they keep citing, the mentioned author is a defender of Imperialism, and this his views can not be NPOV. I insist, that if his book is to be referenced, then the part about stolen has to be too, as only then does it neutralise. Hushing up by using words like "critics of the empire" and Explitation" will not do
AJ2k —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aj2k ( talk • contribs)
AJ2k —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aj2k ( talk • contribs) 19:54, 10 December 2006 (UTC).
Why are English, Welsh and Scotch Gealic under Official Languages when the United Kingdom does not have an official language? Arctic Wolf 21:49, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
- Doesn't mention the only language which is actually completely native - British Sign Language (BSL).
I think it deserves at least a passing mention.
Is there some Natural History of the UK? Anywhere? None of England, either, it seems. KP Botany 00:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
No Dhekelia and Akrotiri (sovereign bases in Cyprus)? -- A.Garnet 20:31, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
What is with the map of all the countries English is an official language? English is the native language of England so shouldn't it be on the England page? Marky-Son 02:13, 28 December 2006 (UTC)
These sentences from the History section seem quite POVist to me: World War II however left the British Isles devastated physically as well as financially, and it was with massive Marshall Plan aid from the United States that allowed the United Kingdom to recover.
Britain's economy however stagnated by the 1970s, in a large part as a result of the massive power labour unions held. The powerful unions deadlocked businesses, creating a very difficult climate to do business in. It was only with the election of Margaret Thatcher and her Conservative government that the power of the unions was rolled back and the British economy began a massive recovery. It is partly from these battles from which Thatcher derived the nickname "The Iron Lady."
For example, the Marshall Plan only loaned money to the UK which was largely spent on nuclear weapons and power. The loan was finally repayed yesterday! Many economists believe that the UK economy recovered strongly in the 50s primarily due to Britain leaving behind rationing, which was not needed, and the central planning of Atlee. The economy boomed strongly in the 60s and entered recession in the early and mid 70s with the rest of the world following the OPEC oil shock; it is also arguable that Britain's strong recovery post 79 was at least partly due to increasing oil revenues from the North Sea which peaked in 1989 at the height of Thatcher's success. Not to say that the social contract and union negotiations coupled with prices and incomes policies didn't have a negative effect, although some think the latter, instituted by Ted Heath and maintained by Callaghan, were what mainly squeezed inflation down, rather than the money supply meddlings of Thatcher's Chancellors. All this just to say that there is controversy. I will think of a suitable way to reword the above pro-Thatcher POV. MarkThomas 15:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The text in question also seemed biased to me - not least because there were at least two serious recessions under Thatcher and Major, not a 'massive recovery'. Guyal of Sfere 13:07, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I was just about to flag up the part about the Unions and the "Iron Lady" which seems very POV until I realised somebody already had, at least references to a neo-liberal economics paper or article could at least show some sources to back up this Thatcherite history of the late 20th century. MarkThomas is correct that it has been argued that oil revenues helped strengthen the economy, as well as other factors, some would point towards the continued benefit of access to EEC markets following membership in 1973. I propose the user who added this section, Mrosscan, or anyone else who cares to do so, add some sources showing the direct or indirect benefit of monetarist policies (which shouldn't be too hard to find, back issues of The Economist maybe?) and also the contrast between the amount of industrial action taken in the 1970s compared to a lack of it in the 1980s or this part be deleted. Benson85 20:01, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
She was first named the Iron Lady before becoming Prime Minister, so she cannot have derived the name from her actions after becoming Prime Minister.
Perhaps it stuck because, in some people's eyes, she lived up to it after being elected but derived cannot be right. I would avoid saying the Marshall Plan "allowed" Britain to recover, as it implies recovery *could* not have happened without it. We can't know if that's true. "Helped" Britain to recover? As far as Thatcher's effect on the economy, it is difficult for me to see how anyone could argue the economy was not in a much better shape in 1990 compared to 1979 BUT I am sure there is someone out there who would - and Thatcher's time in office is still a controversial and divisive issue. I would look for some facts, such as UK ranking in world economies in 1979 and in 1990, and put these in - perhaps toning down the phrase "massive recovery" and mentioning the difficulties the economy also faced during some of her time in office. I may have a go at this myself in a day or two, but I'd rather wait and see if there are objections than do it right now. Hobson 01:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Hi! I just wanted to say that someone has been changing the languages in the box from "English, Welsh, and Scottish Gaelic" to "English (de facto)". I was wondering if this was decided upon. It seems to me that this is the UK, not England, so Welsh and Gaelic should be added. Perhaps "Englsih (de facto), Welsh, and Scottish Gaelic" would be better? | AndonicO Talk | Sign Here 13:39, 10 January 2007 (UTC)
The new map looks great! The addition of colour defiantly improves the aesthetic look of the entire article imho. Canderra 02:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Why's the UK featured as a part of the EU? The EU has no juridic existence, even if it had, which is doesn't, why would the UK be a province of the EU? Why's any country marked as a province of the EU? The Wikipedia is run amok by weird leftist woodstock beatnik pinko type's, but this one takes the cake. NO COUNTRY PARTICIPATING IN THE EU IS A PROVINCE OF THE EU! Heck, until any constitution and juridic existence is approved and rectified the EU doesn't even legally exist, it's a collection of economical and trade agreements - And yes, it's already be democratically blocked by several referendums. Man, the commies that run Wikipedia and beg for cash every Christmas (!) sure can't wait enough for the One World Government BS. I guess i'd at this point ask for Wikipaedia to have a modicum of encyclopaedic decency, but what the hell, i guess the word on the street is right: This IS a mickey mouse encyclopaedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.138.0.53 ( talk • contribs) 16:06, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Britain is part of the EU
Just one thing....How come there is no mention of britains hatred of America? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.47.141.134 ( talk • contribs) 16:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)
Rudjek That is absurd. The UK government may well be obliged to follow "B" if such laws contadict - in the short term at least. However, the British parliament at Westminster retains sovereignty and if any contradiction emerges Mossley10 17:23, 13 January 2007 (UTC) it has the right to legislate specifically in favour of "A".
Be at peace, English man, UK is part of EU and there's nothing you can do about it. "Oh God, we're losing soveregnity!" Yes you are. At least, something good out of English land.
I agree. We dont have a map showing the UK as part of Nato or the Commonwealth. Someone should change it. The Proffesor 00:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl, I agree with Br2387 that the current map is better than having no map at all. I think it it's the best map so far, see what it used to be like. The aim is to show where in the world the country is, and this map fulfils that purpose. As for why the EU is significant, see the section above this.-- Rudjek 00:50, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Risking confusing you all with a similar, but different topic, I have edited the UK map that is already up and wonder what you all think. I have included the main population centres (+Dundee, Aberdeen and Bristol). I have also made the colours a bit more vibrant.
Comments please! Rednaxela 17:30, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow. I take a wikibreak of nearly a year; and the whole "should the first sentence say state or country?" thing is still around. It'll still be there when we're all dead. For what it's worth (but oh! I hope I'm too lazy to be sucked back into this again!), I'm amused by the notion that banknotes and postage stamps are somehow decisive evidence -- yes, wow, postage stamps are so vastly important; I can't believe I didn't see that before. Amused also by the notion that any country worth living in could be said to have one single unitary culture. Doops | talk 09:06, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The opening of this country's wiki history section does not the follow the regular format for nation pages and needs change. It opens, irregularly, with an allusion to a definitely POV and unprovable claim : "the nation that created the modern world", and then tries to counterbalance this with an equally irregular, very early use of POV adjectives rather than factual history - "expolitative" , which seems unlike any other major country page I can find. The only solution to this is to take both the POV claim and the sudden injection of POV criticism at the top of a country article in reaction to it, which I can't find a paralell with elsewhere.
Hd240 17:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
The current map displaying the UK as well as the EU makes it look like the UK is a province of the EU which is made to look like a country. The EU is far from being a country and is only and organisation the UK has chosen to be a member of. The UK is a member of many other organisations but they are not displayed on any other maps of the UK. The EU may very well some day become what might be considered a country if its members choose to or may never become what might be considered a country but until then the map of the UK should only display the UK, after all this is an article about the UK not the EU and the article gives plenty of information where appropriate informing readers the UK is a member of the EU just as it does concerning its affiliation with other organisations. Somethingoranother 17:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I restored the EU map - all EU nations on Wikipedia now have a variation of this map and it's important to have continuity for casual WP readers who want to see at a glance how the EU nations relate to each other. The issue TharkunColl raised when he removed it about the projection should be raised about the map generally to redraw it. MarkThomas 19:09, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
This is all just POVery by you TharkunColl. Of course it's not "their own business" - Wikipedia exists to tell the truth and the truth is that the over-arching institution of which the UK is a part is now the EU and the maps are harmonised on Wikipedia for all EU countries - why on earth should the UK page be any different? Any other editor is fully justified in reverting your POV changes. MarkThomas 19:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You are the one who is being point of veiw. This is a page on the UK not the EU. We should have a map showing the EU on the EU page. I will restore it to the NPOV version untill a concensus for change to show the EU can be reached. And any other editor is fully justified in reverting your NPOV edits. The Proffesor 01:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
You talk about that it is important to keep continuity on related articles then why does the Scotland article keep refusing to use the same UK style map highlighting all other UK countries when all other UK countries use it. Somethingoranother 20:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
By the way the EU does not have legal sovereignty over the UK. It is aggressive insulting to all British citizens to say "Like it or not, the EU now has legal sovereignty over the UK" as though we are an enslaved country. The UK as a member of the EU can freely leave whenever it feels like it. The British Parliament is supreme in the UK and is subservient to no one outside the UK and nothing can over rule it apart from the monarch of England (write to Downing Street and ask them if you think otherwise). Also you say the EU has a foreign policy and its own armed forces. When last I looked the EU has no armed forces under its control and foreign policy is for member states to decide their own, hence the UK invading of Iraq with its own armed forces despite most of the EU opposing it. The UK invasion of Iraq is one example of how the EU holds no power over the UK, has no united policy among members, and controls no armed forces. I also remind you the UK has its own Head of State, its own Head of Government, its own Parliament and government which are not controlled by any other state or organisation, its own currency, its own armed forces. The EU holds no more real power over us than the UN, both of which are just organisations controlled by member states as a system to get what they want. The invasion of Iraq proved just how weak the EU and UN are contrary to what europhiles say. Neither held any power to stop the UK invading Iraq nor had any affect on its policy. Along with the dead EU constitution proving impossible to pass with member states' citizens simply refusing to accept it. All this has made the EU seem weak and unworkable a bit like the League of Nations (which itself was an organisation made mainly from European powers), the EU now after its failing over member differences during the invasion of Iraq and the pathetic attempt to try and have an EU constitution and its resulting death plus the failing economies of those with the Euro has all but nearly made the EU seem like a doomed idea. As I said earlier this page is about the UK not EU. The map displayed at the introduction of the article should display the UK and UK only. All relevance to the EU should be given where relevant. If the EU becomes a state whenever then the map can show the EU so stop pushing POV that the EU is a state. P.S. the CIA World Fact Book does not say the EU is a state it says the EU is an organisation which shares qualities like states do. Also you told someone else to stop pushing POVery when you are the one pushing POVery as I have never seen another internet article solely about the UK which had an map in the introduction showing the UK as part of the EU so that tells you what common consensus is on this and which way is NPOV. Somethingoranother 21:30, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The EU is effectively a state and that's why for example it has ambassadors at the UN and in the US, China, the Vatican, etc. Also you make a number of false statements about the following, namely: (1) the EU definately does have sovereignty over the UK in a whole range of areas as verified by certain famous legal cases, (2) the British Parliament is not superior to the EU Commission except in those areas where power has been derogated to the UK by decision of the EU (3) the EU does already have it's own armed force and foreign policy, albeit I agree small and so far useless (4) the EU has many direct powers over the UK whereas the UN has none (5) the map does not imply that the UK is part of the EU state, even though it actually is now, but simply harmonises this article with all the other EU country articles. MarkThomas 22:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The EU only has power in areas derogated to it by the British Parliament. The Proffesor 01:09, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
And those powers were derogated. The EU did not force the UK, the UK joined, and now on several matters the EU does make decisions for all its members, including the UK, and like all member states also the UK must abide those decisions as long as it remains a member state. At present, it still is. Wikipedia states facts, not POVs. — SomeHuman 23 Feb 2007 06:01 (UTC)
MarkThomas is factually wrong in a number of respects. The UK is a treaty signatory to the EU Treaties (a 'member') and gives powers to the EU (and its institutions: the Parliament, the Commission, the ECJ, etc.) as long as it remains a signatory of those treaties. If it Parliament were to rescind those treaties, the UK would cease to to be a member of the EU and the EU institutions would have no powers in respect of the UK. The EU does not have Ambassadors, only representatives (much as do the OECD and other regional organisations). The EU is not a state, does not claim to be one and is not a member of the UN. It does not have an army. It has a <common> foreign policy for some specific issues but each member state has its own foreign policy.
The map does, in my opinion, imply that the UK is a constituent of a bigger state called the EU, thereby misleading casual readers. It also fails to include other significant regional and global organisations of which the UK has membership. And it presents a POV biased towards those who would <like> the EU to be something more than it is. If the maps on all other EU member states have the same failing, then they should all also change to reflect NPOV. SeymourJ 12:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
TharkunColl has just broken 3RR by again uploading the wrong image for the UK as discussed above for the third time - can other editors please help and overturn him. If he changes it again I will report him for the breach. Thanks. MarkThomas 19:16, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
You attempted to use a tactic (making a marginally different edit) to avoid 3RR - many admins would still ban you for that. One more! :-) MarkThomas 07:17, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
In the rush to make it seem like the EU is a state, and the UK just a province thereof, those with such an agenda have allowed themselves to present a map that is factually incorrect. It may surprise them to learn that Spain is actually quite a lot bigger than Sweden (go and look it up), but if this map is to be believed then Sweden is more than twice the size of Spain. This, to put it bluntly, is a lie. In the preparation of maps it is essential to choose the most appropriate projection for the land area covered. I don't suppose this will make any difference though. Facts and honesty have never been very high on the list of priorities for those who wish to push politics down our collective gobs. Please remember that this article is about the UK, and is not about the UK in the EU. TharkunColl 09:10, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
It's just the projection the map creator has used. Why don't you create one with a different projection and propose it? MarkThomas 10:44, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Reverted because (pretty obviously) what we mean is that you need to create a new map based on the old design with a new projection for every country in the EU and propose it before insertion. MarkThomas 14:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
Many Wikipedia infoboxes contain standard material that is repeated across multiple related pages. It is disruptive to keep changing this in this way without going through the process of at least trying to gain acceptance - one more change and you are reported. Thanks. MarkThomas 15:18, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
The topmost map on the right is the one I created today, specifically to take into account the opinions of those for whom the EU is important. The map below is the one I created yesterday, and the bottom one is the map currently in the article. I am placing my versions here because I suspect very few people have actually seen them, since they were both reverted very quickly.
I have a simple question: which is best? The bottom one is certainly colourful, but in my opinion that's all it has going for it. It is cluttered with rivers and other superfluous features, and most of the countries are all crammed into the bottom half and appear tiny. This is a direct result of the projection used, which is highly inapropriate for the area covered. Sweden, for example, is not twice the size of Spain, but is actually smaller than it. The map, therefore, is untruthful.
It has been argued that since all the other EU countries have versions of the same map, then so should the UK. I have a simple question to this - why? In the interests of truth, and in order to not present a gross distortion of geography, I contend that either of my maps are better. And there is nothing to stop anyone from downloading my map, and adapting it for those other EU countries. TharkunColl 16:46, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I asked "why" those countries should all have the same map, and instead of answering, you merely restated the question. So I'll ask again: Why should they be harmonised? What is the advantage? TharkunColl 17:06, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I take your question to mean "why have infoboxes for multiple pages across a related subject that have strong replication?". The reason for doing this is to enable users to be familiar at a glance with the context of pages, to enable them to quickly see what relationship each article has to the overall subject, to be able to browse quickly between pages and to understand the whole topic better. Finally, the EU is sovereign over the UK in many ways and other EU countries and this needs to be reflected therefore with each member country shown as a subdivision of the overall EU entity. MarkThomas 17:09, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I shall change the colour scheme to something based on shades of red, unless people would prefer something else. I also propose a new suggestion: showing the UK in a dark shade, the EU in an intermediate shade, and the EEA and/or Shengen area (the only difference would be Switzerland) in a light shade. This would have the effect of giving even more info than the current map, and at the same time giving a more rounded impression of the UK's involvement in pan-European international bodies (of which the EU is by no means the only one). So what it really boils down to is this: just because the editors of the articles on other European countries are content with a crappy, contorted, cluttered, and basically untruthful map, does not mean that we here should not strive for excellence. I therefore propose a vote - Accuracy or Conformity. TharkunColl 09:20, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Schengen is a distraction, it's just a set of rules about border checks. NAFTA, mentioned above, is irrelevant - it is just a trade agreement, whereas the EU is a whole set of interlocking supra-national institutions and even has a parliament. The only other world body remotely analogous to the EU is the UN and since we're all in that, it's pointless adding it to every map. It would be much better not to get distracted and keep with a simple map that shows the EU and the UK within it. Now the problem is that it would also be much better if those were the same across the EU so that a WP user moving from article to article sees the same map. If you have a different map for the UK, you should really create multiples for all the other countries. It would therefore be better to create a variant of the current EU map and recommend it rather than just changing the UK map. See also Talk:European Union. MarkThomas 10:15, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
So far we appear to have 3 votes in favour of my map, and 1 against. Have I read the most recent two comments correctly? Anyway, as promised, I have re-done it in shades of red (which are hopefully less lurid), and also included the EEA. The fact is that what we think of as a defining characteristic of the EU - the ability to live and work in any participating country with no entry restrictions - is actually a function of the EEA, which is both larger than the EU (as it includes Norway and Iceland), and separate from it. To not show the EEA may give the false impression that the EU is responsible for all these pan-European agreements, whereas this is very far from the case. TharkunColl 13:05, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
The EEA is interesting, but it's still effectively just a distraction; the EEA is now effectively just an "offshore" EU for people who don't want to join but want some of the benefits. TharkunColl I have to say this - your POV is chrystal clear. You can't stand the EU and therefore take every effort to thwart what you wrongly perceive as pro-EU POV - the fact is, even if you don't like it, the UK is in the EU and the EU is a supra-national entitity above the level of it's member countries and the fact that it exists is a fact and the fact that it's a semi-state is a fact. You can't change that with map tinkering on Wikipedia, and the whole thing is sad because casual visitors to WP get misinformed by the POV-ist attitudes you and other EU-bashers offer. MarkThomas 13:23, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Again irrelevant - the EU is a superpower and supra-national state, the issues of which country people can work in are totally trivial compared with displaying this basic fact on our maps. Anyway, if you want to get the basic mapping changed, you should really discuss it at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries where the whole thing is under review - your POVist attempt to alter the maps here at the UK only is effectively a waste of time. MarkThomas 13:51, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
I have nothing against the EEA, we are talking about the context of using this map. I just think it's too minor to be worth including and confuses the average WP user. Also as has been said before, infoboxes frequently carry standardised information repeated in a templated form across many related articles, so your attitude that you only care about this page is against the best interests of Wikipedia as a whole. MarkThomas 14:12, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
One more thing TharkunColl - you keep repeating as a mantra that the EU does not have an armed force - not that this is the only valid criteria for being a state - but you are (as per usual) misleading people - it does. European Union Force. MarkThomas 14:16, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
So now you do admit that it does have an armed force, something you previously categorically stated was false? OK. Next subject. Manchester half the size of Birmingham? I take it you are referring to the narrow definitions of local auhority populations? By that criteria, London does not exist and Birmingham is the largest city in the UK and Europe. So shall we have an intelligent discussion about it, or just let you rant on? MarkThomas 14:26, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Damn, you're as slippery as an eel! :-) As soon as you lose one argument you claim all along you meant another! MarkThomas 14:35, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
It was about as intelligent as your "points" that an army is not an army if it has 7000 men and that Manchester is half the size of Birmingham. I too can always have the last word! Enough already. MarkThomas 14:54, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
It seems that everyone, or mostly everyone, is agreed that my map is actually better. May I suggest, then, that those who feel strongly about having conformity with other articles - if they really do believe my map is better - should go ahead and adapt it for those other countries. My own view is that such rigid, inflexible conformity is not at all necessary for understanding. The two maps, though of different design, quite obviously depict the same area, so what is the problem? My desire is to make this article better, because it's a subject I care about. I don't edit articles for which I have no interest or knowledge. As for the EEA, such a massively important thing as free movement of people and jobs cannot fail to be political, as all this current controversy about Eastern European immigrants proves beyond doubt. It is all part and parcel of European integration, and to make it seem as if this is a purely EU affair is highly misleading. TharkunColl 18:25, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
An infobox on Wikipedia is a consistently-formatted table which is present in articles with a common subject to provide summary information consistently between articles or improve navigation to closely related articles in that subject. (An infobox is a generalization of a taxobox (from taxonomy) which summarizes information for an organism or group of organisms.)
What's the bit about "consistently-formatted" and "articles with a common subject" and "improve navigation" that you don't understand? MarkThomas 21:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Another point: The map in the article has no title, so how are people supposed to know what is being indicated? It also appears to be impossible to add a title, which seems to be a result of the type of infobox used. In the absence of a title the only sensible thing to do would be to highlight the UK and nothing else. TharkunColl 00:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, the solution can certainly not be that the UK has a totally unique map format. There must be some consistency. After all, the infobox is also the same for all the countries. The new EU map is much more appealing from an aesthetic point of view. One can discuss if the EU should be shaded or not - in my opinion it should because of the political importance the EU has (after all, most UK laws are nowadays based on some EU directive) - but I'm not dogmatic on this issue. Obviously, if the discussion leads to the conclusions that the map is wished by the majority of EU countries' wikipages, it should also be added on the UK page. Luis rib 23:35, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
There is a very extensive and detailed discussion on it going on at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries where the aim is to try to standardise the formats of geo-locator infobox maps for all countries, so after some considerable exposure to this discussion, I now realise we should all participate in that where we have views. Personally think though that the new EU set would be better than the current random acts by in-article editors each doing their own thing, which is why I and I now am glad to see many other editors keep reverting TharkunColl to the Euro base map, which whilst not perfect is better than the random brain outputs of Tharkun. MarkThomas 23:54, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
And you are trolling - but you have it is quite clear absolutely no idea what Wikipedia is for. It isn't a collection of entirely separate articles run by maniacs. Which appears to be your wish. MarkThomas 00:22, 20 January 2007 (UTC)
Having attempted, unsuccessfully, to add a title or description to the map, I am now of the opinion that any map that shows the EU (or indeed shades any country other than the UK), without explaining what it is showing, is fundamentally wrong. It was argued earlier that it is desirable to have all EU countries showing the same map because this is less confusing for the readers of Wikipedia. My contention is that showing a map without explaining what it is is infinitely more confusing for the reader, and could actually lead to genuine non-comprehension. Indeed, showing such a map degrades Wikipedia and should never have been contemplated in the first place. Presumably, in the lemming-like rush for conformity at any price such details as telling the reader what he is actually looking at were forgotten, or at best brushed aside as an irrelevant inconvenience. Given, as seems to be the case, that it is not possible to add a title or description to the map as it currently stands within its infobox, I propose that we substitute a map that shades only the UK and nothing else. In the absence of a title or description attached to the map, we can only show what is indicated by the name of the article itself, i.e. United Kingdom. As for whether we use the one I designed for this purpose, or the old distorted map, is - I now believe - a much less important issue, and I would be content with either. I shall first attempt to add the one I designed, however, simply because I think it's better. If this gets continuously reverted without a proper debate, I'll try again with the other one. TharkunColl 10:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.95.201.127 ( talk) 04:18, 20 January 2007 (UTC).
A I had explained at
23 Feb
2007 05:00 (UTC) here above, the location map that
User:The Proffesor had put in the article makes to any average reader the statement "The UK is not a member of the EU" (a clearly false statement, not a mere POV, thus utterly unencyclopaedic), because all other EU members appear to have adopted the EU-shaded map and all non-members the plain Europe location map. There are very few exceptions and not one makes that kind of false statement: Spain (with an entirely different style of map that does not suggest it to be a member or not to be a member, and David Liuzzo was contacted in order to possibly make a minor modification on his map for Spain so as to fit a particular Spanish concern), Russia which of course extends far into Asia, finally San Marino and Vatican City because there are no maps available, David Liuzzo was contacted...
Though a few contributors are clearly still in disagreement, possibly only one (who got blocked for
4RR while three contributors were reverting his 'old' map back to the Europe of EU location map), an overwhealming number of countries's articles and their respective large number of regular contributors appear to have adopted or at least accepted this uniform style for European countries. The concern for a same map style had been clearly brought forward by defenders of the 'old' maps and by those for the Liuzzo maps.
In order to bring also the UK article in line with this style, and certainly because the present 'Europe location' map style is most clearly to reserved for non-members of the European Union, this change would be required:
In the
United Kingdom infobox,
IF THE PRESENT IS:
|image_map = Europe location UK.png
POSSIBLY FOLLOWED BY:
|map_caption = Map showing the location of the United Kingdom.
IT SHOULD BECOME (AS THE MAP HAD BEEN THERE BEFORE): (copy from here viewed page, not from nowikied source here)
|image_map = EU location UK.png
|map_caption = Location of the [[United Kingdom]] (dark orange)<p style="text-align:left;margin-left:1.2ex;margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:-2px;line-height:1em;">– in the [[European Union]] (light orange)<br/>– at the [[Europe|European continent]] (EU + clear) <span style="display:none;">— ([[:Image:EU location legend.png|Legend]])</span></p>
END OF REQUIRED MODIFICATION
(Notice that the disputed bilingual German/English link is not displayed. The caption text gives enough information for the small locator in the infobox. Unfortunately, if one clicks on it to open the large image for closer inspection, one can not reach the then usefull more detailed 'Legend' from there either.)
In case the UK contributors could not possibly accept the de facto consensus for European countries (though I would dare to strongly recommend to follow the dozens of countries), one might replace the location map with the old style
image:LocationUnitedKingdom.png: that style is obsolete for European countries but it does not suggest European Union membership nor denies such. Another emergency rescue fix might be
image:LocationUK.png though it is no standard anywhere. The overall importance is that a location map mustnot make the false statement "this is not a EU member state.": it must either state the truth or not make a statement at all. The change would then be limited to:
IF THE PRESENT IS:
|image_map = Europe location UK.png
AS EMERGENCY RESCUE ONLY, IT CAN BECOME any ONE of these two lines:
|image_map = LocationUnitedKingdom.png
|image_map = LocationUK.png
Perhaps a visualization helps:
![]() Liuzzo style created for all EU members, in case entire-EU colouring were to be accepted; while then all European non-EU members would use the other Liuzzo version → |
![]() Liuzzo style created for all European non-EU members; and extra only in case the EU-colouring were not to be accepted, also for all EU members. ↑ Unacceptable for UK article ↑ |
Most European countries use the Liuzzo maps the way these were originally intended: with the entire EU coloured only for EU-member states and uncoloured for the other countries (the few exceptions do not use any Liuzzo style map); as long as this situation remains, usage of the second map for a EU member (e.g. the UK) is falsifying information and absolutely inacceptable, regardless one's personal views: If the UK uses a Liuzzo map, it can only be the first (EU coloured) style unless all other EU countries would stop using that first style as well. Both series must remain available for each EU country because the maps on Wikimedia Commons are also used by other language Wikipedia's at which the other choice might be made. |
A Liuzzo map as the one on the left simply does not exist for a dark orange Switzerland, such would be no less or more acceptable than only the UK using the map to the right. | ||
![]() 'old' style (assumed obsolete for European countries, but it still has its adepts and is undisputedly strictly neutral) |
![]() TharkunColl style (a hybrid for European countries, depicting the European continent much like the Liuzzo maps while its 'old' style colours and little detail warrants it to be undisputedly strictly neutral; the map was presented on the UK talk page though did not receive much enthousiasm; it may not have versions for any other countries) |
![]() Rei-artur style, recent (which was not sufficiently discussed generally and did never appear preferred or discussed for the UK, the reserved image space did not yet get a proper map for the UK (see here - available maps in Rei-artur style are undisputedly strictly neutral for EU matters) |
Kind regards. — SomeHuman 26 Feb 2007 02:11 (UTC)
Assuming this is the chat for the current map (there is rather a lot of it) the current map legend uses the colour "camel" which is not one I've ever heard of. I always thought it was an animal. Maybe light orange would be a better description? Micah23 17:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
The map does, in my opinion, imply that the UK is a constituent of a bigger state called the EU, thereby misleading casual readers. It also fails to include other significant regional and global organisations of which the UK has membership. And it presents a POV biased towards those who would <like> the EU to be something more than it is. If the maps on all other EU member states have the same failing, then they should all also change to reflect NPOV. SeymourJ 12:31, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
I've noticed on the Scotland article editors won't allow the fact box map of Scotland to display the rest of the UK in a shaded colour, making Scotland seem like a separate country outside of the UK. Can editors from here who support union the UK please help make sure that UK country fact boxes keep the rest of the UK shaded in a lighter colour especially with how popular Wikipedia is on the internet now and at a crucial time for union of the UK it's silly and dangerous to the UK for people to push separatist POV on UK articles unless people want to see the future of the UK become like that of the Balkans. Please help keep the UK together for everyone's sakes.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.110.215.171 ( talk)
I'm rather confused about this. It might just be due to that I'm an American (and used to a legislative government-- the UK's government confuses me no end), but how can this article assert that "God Save the Queen" is the national anthem solely through tradition? (That's the only reason that's given; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_kingdom#_note-60)
It seems to me that " Jerusalem" (popular song; it's used as England's cricket team's anthem), " Land of Hope and Glory" (It's used as the anthem for England at the Commonwealth Games), and " Rule Britannia!" have just as good a claim through tradition as "God Save the Queen." I don't know what changes should be made to the article (if any), but I would like to have this cleared up. Maybe the others should be mentioned as alternitaves. The Luizer 18:31, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you're right. I didn't seem to notice that LoHaG and Jerusalem are peculiarly English, not British. Sorry about that. I also understand the "Unwritten constition" idea, though I think it's too loose to hold the government in check. (But, that's not my business. That's up to you folks.) What I don't understand is how I'm supposed to find out the exact prodecures and powers of the different branches of the government if they've never been laid down in one place. Parliament's website is hopelessly convoluted to me. I can't find out how someone becomes the Gentleman if the Black Rod or what names you're not allowed to call an MP on the floor, although it's information you'd need to know to serve. More on topic, I associate "Rule Britannia!" with the UK more than "God Save the Queen," if only because we sing the same tune here as "My Country 'Tis of Thee." It does seem that "GStQ" is more "official" if only because it's used more. The Luizer 16:57, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Am I the only one to find 'billion' ambiguous wherever it's read? At school I was taught that it was 1012 and that 109 was an American thing. I know that the American usage is becoming more prevalent in the English language (though, interestingly, in many other European languages, words that sound like 'billion' (eg the Swedish 'biljon') mean 1012, with words sounding like the English 'milliard' (unambiguously 109 - eg the Swedish 'miljard') mean 109. The older the Brit the more likely he is to find 'billion' ambiguous. THEREFORE (and there is a point to this) I propose that the 'billion' in this article, which is ambiguous in UK contexts, be changed to the entirely unambiguous 'milliard'. Matthew 11:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
For what its worth, I agree that milliard is out-dated. I'm 36 and I've never used it. However, I was always taught that a billion was a million million - a million to the power of 2 ("bi"), a trillion was a million to the power of 3 ("tri") etc. It makes far more sense logically to me that we should only have invented new words for numbers once we had run out of descriptions. Therefore "thousand million" is always how I have viewed and described numbers of that magnitude.
I think it should be included in a Manual of Style for UK-related articles. -- Mal 18:14, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
I would like to start a debate regarding the use of a new template on various UK settlement pages, to include the union flag at the bottom, unlike the English version ( Template:Infobox England place) in the hope that it will increase public awareness of the difference between England and Britain. In order to do this a concensus is necessary and I would therefore appreciate any possible support. A copy of this template can be seen on the Market Deeping page or here is the actual template Template:Infobox England place with UK flag for UK map. The current use of the England flag at the bottom of such tables lacks continuity between the map of the UK and the English flag, creating confusion, but since there are two templates maybe individual pages could decide or, a template could be created with both. Many Thanks. -- Ash online 17:32, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Why is the England Infobox being singled out here? The user who is pushing for for this, openly states on their user page that they wish to remove every reference to England and the reasoning used on this page was suggested by another user. The fact that each infobox for England, Scotland & Wales states that each is the constituent country and the UK is the sovereign states seems to be being ignored here.
To avoid any possible misunderstanding - the comments below this are mine, the ones above this are not. It would avoid confusion if every editor signed their comments. Hobson 12:26, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Are you also suggesting removing the Scottish and Welsh flags from the infobox for Scottish and Welsh settlements? If not, then English entries should surely stay as they are. Alternatively, every entry could have both the relevant nation flag (English/Scottish etc) and the UK flag, as Majab suggested. Presenting English settlements as UK settlements and Scottish settlements as Scottish settlements would not reduce confusion about the difference between England and the UK (or Britain), I think. Hobson 01:17, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
for: either both flags
or : remove flags from tables altogether
there is no need in my view to stick flags on EVERYTHING! It just creates arguments and hastle, especially over a divisive issue like the UK and the status of its parts/home nations. Not all countries have flags in their town templates. However, it's really not that important, since as one user said the template does recognise the UK as sovereign. Lofty 15:58, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
If Scotland articles stick a Scottish flag at the end of every fact box then UK and England articles should do the same. What's with the whole anti English/UK thing?
Somethingoranother
23:15, 3 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the lead paragraph, "The United Kingdom is a political union made up of three constituent countries: England, Scotland, and Wales, and also that part of the Irish Province of Ulster known as Northern Ireland." I'm not too happy about this. I understand why Northern Ireland is not listed directly alongside England, Scotland and Wales, but why bring up the "Irish Province of Ulster"? In my opinion, it only creates confusion, which is something that should be avoided in the lead paragraph. The specifics of Northern Ireland are explained further down in the article, and in our Good Article on Northern Ireland. Furthermore, the country is called the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland", not the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and that part of the Irish Province of Ulster known as Northern Ireland." I believe that it would suffice for the lead paragraph to say something to the extent of "The United Kingdom is a political union made up of three constituent countries: England, Scotland, and Wales, and also the administrative division Northern Ireland." Any thoughts? A ecis Brievenbus 11:59, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
It is hereby declared that Northern Ireland remains part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom, and it is hereby affirmed that in no event will Northern Ireland or any part of it cease to be part of Her Majesty's dominions and of the United Kingdom without the consent of the majority of the people of Northern Ireland voting in a poll held for the purposes of this section in accordance with Schedule 1 to this Act.
It would appear to be a dominion part of the United Kingdom. Any questions? :-) MarkThomas 12:33, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Northern Ireland is 6 years longer in the United then Scotland yet Northern Ireland is listed last. SGAtlantis 00:21, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The table states that Welch and Cornish are de facto official languages too. Isn't that confusing officially recognised minority languages with official languages? (The article official language says: "Officially recognized minority languages are often mistaken for official languages. However, a language officially recognized by a state, taught in schools, and used in official communication is not necessarily an official language."). Marcoscramer 01:49, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
The article states;
London is by far the UK's largest city. After that, the definition of largest is dependent upon the criteria used, but no one city stands out as larger than the others.
I don't understand this. As anyone who has spent long periods in various urban centres round the UK knows, Birmingham is significantly larger than it's nearest rivals in both size and population. Is this easily verifiable and common fact some bone of contention here? Because it shouldn't be.-- Zleitzen ( Talk) 09:54, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
At the moment, editor TharkunColl is listing Glasgow as third-largest city in the UK, which is obviously wrong. He states on Talk:Second city of the United Kingdom that he is drawing figures from List of English cities by population although this page warns at the top that they disregard conurbation populations - in other words, he is basing his edit on local authority populations. These are widely disputed as being an objective guide to the size of British cities, whose built-up areas frequently exceed (significantly) local authority boundaries. Therefore can other editors take a look at this please and make adjustments? I proposed what I hoped was a more objective summary and was (against WP:CIVIL) accused by TharkinColl of "wrecking the page", which I don't think is fair - I was trying to make it objective and Wikipedian. Please review, thanks. MarkThomas 13:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
OK, they are adjusted local-authority populations - I quote directly from the introduction of the article:
"These figures, on the other hand, should also not be confused with the population of conurbations. The original ONS statistics were calculated and presented in that format; but in this list urban areas and urban sub-divisions recognised as towns with a population greater than 100,000 have been extracted and listed separately. Thus, for instance, the Greater Manchester conurbation has a far larger population than that accredited to Manchester here; this list counts towns such as Salford, Sale and Stockport separately."
To just take this in the introduction of United Kingdom as fact gives a very misleading impression. There is debate about which is second and third, but the usual contenders for that title are Birmingham and Manchester, not Glasgow. MarkThomas 13:36, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The point is not if I confuse it - the point is what the average reader of Wikipedia coming to this article thinks it means. Specialists argue about what it means - you are taking one narrow interpretation of it and dumping it into the article because of your intense pro-Birmingham POV. I even agreed in my edit that the conurbation of Birmingham is second-biggest and you deleted that and replaced it with a narrow and distorted view. Most average people don't think it means "ONS scientifically-adjusted LA boundary+related towns" - they think it means the biggest and most important urban areas and that in Britain means either Birmingham or Manchester. MarkThomas 13:42, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I don't have a pro-Manchester POV any different to a majority of the British population who poll after poll shows consider Manchester to be Britain's second city. And your latter point was exactly what my edit attempted to explain, which you deleted! MarkThomas 13:47, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
My POV is that Brummies tend to be slightly over-confident that they are the second city of Britain - that's different to a pro-Manchester POV, but it's a difference you don't get, which is fine. And the criteria you draw on for a list of city populations are misleading to average readers, since even a quick glance at a map shows Manchester is far bigger than Glasgow. Now we should stop this and leave it to other editors to decide, but I would ask editors to review TharkunColl's change to this and see if you think it's correct. Thanks. MarkThomas 13:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
One problem with the TC edit is that he's not using UK figures - he's using English City ONS figures + a figure from Glasgow based on different criteria. If we're going down this path, we should be using this page as the source: List of metropolitan areas of the UK. MarkThomas 14:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be interesting to have this. MarkThomas 17:29, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I hope everyone's happy with the change I've just made. It should now be clear that the figures given are those of conurbations, with links to the conurbation pages given. It also mentions the cities within each conurbation, and so avoids the Birmingham = West Midlands and Manchester = Greater Manchester error, which is demonstrably false, but avoids using any figures for the actual cities, whether Local Authority (like
List of English districts by population) or Urban Sub-Area (like
List of English cities by population).
Fingerpuppet
18:15, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a good edit and it's more in line with city size comparisons elsewhere in WP, where they usually take Metropolitan Urban Areas as the criteria. MarkThomas 18:45, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I am posting my edit here so people can see it in case it gets reverted. If this version does not seem reasonable then perhaps it could be discussed a little. I hope we can at least agree that the the city populations should be used in a section dealing with city populations - if conurbations are also important, we can have that too. Hobson 23:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
(cities section below)
The four capitals of the United Kingdom's constituent countries are London (England), Edinburgh (Scotland), Cardiff (Wales) and Belfast (Northern Ireland). London is by far the UK's largest city, with a population of more than seven million. Birmingham is next with around 970,000, followed by Glasgow, with a population of around 578,000.
There are many different statistics and debates on which cities are the UK's largest, due to differences between the administrative boundaries and metropolitan areas of cities, and because of merging of settlements into conurbations. After London, the West Midlands conurbation (which contains the cities of Birmingham and Wolverhampton) is the second largest urban area with around 2.28 million, followed by the Greater Manchester Urban Area (which contains the cities of Manchester and Salford) with 2.24 million.
There is considerable dispute over which is the second city since this concept includes cultural factors. [1] Hobson 23:33, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Myself, Gwernol and Majabl have reverted the following addition by 88.109.86.234. This has been adding in again by Somethingoranother " Information given is completely backed up by references to the CIA World Fact Book. Stop pushing Pro Euro POV and denying factual information which balances the article and creates NPOV". The edit is contention is:
The supplied two references do not back up the three claims, in turn:
Without references that support the claims they should be removed. Thanks/ wangi 23:44, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
I didn't say the UK's economy had grown faster than the Eurozone I said Since the Euro was launched major economies in the Eurozone have generally struggled while the United Kingdom's economic growth rate has been faster than any other major European economy emphasis on major which means faster than Germany, France, and Italy, which all use the Euro. 88.109.86.234 00:47, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
The first source from The CIA World Fact Book article says: The economy is one of the strongest in Europe; inflation, interest rates, and unemployment remain low. The relatively good economic performance has complicated the BLAIR government's efforts to make a case for Britain to join the European Economic and Monetary Union (EMU). Critics point out that the economy is doing well outside of EMU, and public opinion polls show a majority of Britons are opposed to the euro. It explicity says the majority of British people oppose the Euro. The second source from the CIA World Fact Book shows a table which clearly shows the UK's economy has a higher growth rate than Germany, France, and Italy. I love how you try to say the CIA isn't a reliable source lol. And if you want i'll paste the whole economic growth table here if you're disputing what it says. Germany, the UK, France, and Italy are the major economies of Europe because they're the only 4 that hover around the $2 trillion mark. I love how you tried to dispute that too lol. —The preceding
unsigned comment was added by
88.109.86.234 (
talk •
contribs).
Could someone please explain why the intro says (incorrectly) that the UK is the second most populous state in the EU, yet when I go to the edit page to change it to 'third most populous', it already says third there (but not on the real page)?-- Triglyph 22:43, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
I stuck in the very slightest mention of cornwall into the UK history under the section of acts of union etc, because there is a very reasonable academic debate about it's status, albeit not one with any sense of urgency. If anyone has a thought as to a better way of mentioning it discretely without distroying a well-written article, naturally, discuss. My thought is that it should be mentioned in passing at least, not least since the laws giving it in theory quite a reasonable level of autonomy are still on the statute books. Graldensblud 00:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC)
The first sentence in the article says the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is shortened into certain terms including the incorrect term Great Britain. The article should promulgate proper usage. If you want to keep it in, why not say incorrectly shortened to Great Britain? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mickraus ( talk • contribs) 11:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC).
I think it may also need to be added that the United Kingdom is very rarely shortened to "Great Britain", most people who generally shorten the names of countries and not use the official name usually shorten it just to "Britain" which, since "Britain" has no legal meaning, is not really incorrect or correct, exept for the fact that citizens of the UK are legally refered to as "British Citizens". I think maybe the article should stop saying that the United Kingdom is shortened to "Great Britain" completly, as I said, it happens very rarely. Whats more, the citation the user who wrote this comment uses to justify his claims that the United Kingdom is sometimes shortened to Great Britain has a diagram which clearly shows that Great Britain is merely one part of the United Kingdom, the other being Northern Ireland. - Supertask 23 Feburary 2007 18:14
Great Britain and the UK are different things. I agree with Graldensblud, although it should be common knowledge that Great Britain includes the Republic of Ireland and the UK does not. Ninington 16:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi The top righthand bar states that the uk top level domain is co.uk. Most sources i have read state that the tld is .uk not .co.uk. i suggest that this is changed from .co.uk to .uk
Ckeene 15:24, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
.org.co.uk, .org.uk and .dk.uk are other site URLs using .uk. You are technically correct in that .co.uk is not the only UK domain, but it is the most common.
The problem is just lack of editors with the right map-drawing skills and the time to create a set of maps for Europe to come forward with alternate proposals. In the meantime, infoboxes are meant to provide consistent information across related articles, which these maps do. They aren't perfect, but they're a start. If you want better maps, why not create some? MarkThomas 08:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
The countries of the UK have been added to the new Category:Germanic culture by an editor. Please discuss this to ascertain whether this is appropriate or not - and act accordingly.-- Zleitzen (talk) 13:52, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Adding the UK to Germanic Culture category contradicts the description of Germanic Culture on its own page, as it is focused around the German language. "Germanic culture (German: Deutschsprachige Kultur) is a term that refers to the heritage and worldview of the people from the German-speaking world, or Deutschsprechende Welt." UK does not belong. Hughsheehy 11:11, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The individual behind these user names is causing real trouble with this article. They were responsible for the lockdown [4] that occurred a couple of days ago, because they kept reverting to "their" state of the article, over twenty times in one 24 hour period. When banned because of 3RR violations, this user simply creates sockpuppet accounts or arranges for new IPs from which to continue their edit wars.
This individual's latest unconstructive behaviour is to repeatedly add "The City of London is a major business and commercial centre, ranking alongside New York City as the leading centre of global finance", to the "economy" section, despite the fact that two paragraphs later, it says "The service sector of the United Kingdom is dominated by financial services, especially in banking and insurance. London is one of the world's largest financial centres with the London Stock Exchange, the London International Financial Futures and Options Exchange, and the Lloyd's of London insurance market all based in the city".
Any suggestions on what we can do with this contributor?
Gsd2000 02:15, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Can't you ban IP Addresses? JoWal 17:37, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
The following sentence, located at the end of the second-to-last paragraph under History, is wordy and unclear:
Following a period of economic stagnation in the 1970s after global economic downturn, and the rule of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s, for critics and supporters heralding respectively greater division and economic recovery, the preceding decade has been dominated by the leadership of Tony Blair.
It should be re-written to something more along the lines of:
The United Kingdom faced a period of economic stagnation in the 1970s after global economic downturn, which the rule of Margaret Thatcher in the 1980s attempted to assuage. Thatcher's free-market strategy for economic recovery gave way to more moderate reform. The preceding decade has been dominated by the leadership of Tonay Blair and his "third way" economic policies.
or something like that. I think the sentence as it stands is simply confusing. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.230.174.92 ( talk) 19:13, 22 February 2007 (UTC).
They seem to mean 'the past ten years'.
Under the photograph of the current monarch, the name given is "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II" "Her Majesty" needs to be removed from the caption as it suggests subservience to the British crown.
For instance, beneath the photograph of the current Dalai Lama we see the caption "The 14th and current Dalai Lama, Tenzin Gyatso (born 1935)." without "His Holiness." The current Catholic Pope is merely designated "The current Pope is Benedict XVI...". While these are religious examples, we find the lack of full-designation in the Saudi Arabia page where the current king is referred to as simply "King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia" rather than "The custodian of the Two Holy Mosques", etc. There are more examples.
This disproportionate caption was evidently created by an enthusiast, and appears to be spam.
On the current monarch's entry (under the same portrait, mind you) the less obsequious caption reads:"Elizabeth II wearing the Imperial State Crown and fur cape and holding the Sceptre with the Cross and the Orb at her Coronation (2 June 1953)"
Which is sufficient. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.13.234.147 ( talk • contribs)
"Dieu et mon droit" is actually an ancient spelling of "Dieu est mon droit" and therefore should be translated by "God is my right". By adopting this motto, Richard I meant that he was king of England by the grace of God and owed nothing to the king of France. See [5] for more explanations.
-- 156.18.19.12 22:57, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be useful to standardise the terminology used in the constituent countries' articles by discussing it here in the UK talk page, rather than each individual article debating it separately. The present situation is that England is a country and constituent country, Scotland is a nation and constituent country, Wales is a constituent country and Northern Ireland is a part of the UK. These discrepancies will only lead to confusion for people trying to inform themselves about the structure of the UK. What do other people think? AlexOUK 09:21, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
On a similar note, how come in the political divisions section of this article; England is listed as a Kingdom, but Scotland is listed as a realm? I agree (to some extent) that Wales is a principality and that Northern Ireland is a province, but I don't understand why Scotland is shown in a light which is dimmer than England's? -- MC 18:37, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
In what kind of sense the UK is a sovereign state? As part of the EU it has transfered considerable parts of politics to Brussels and other EU institutions. It should be rephrased. 84.189.97.252 00:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Who removed country from the intro? I thought the consensus was that country was OK? I can't find any discussion regarding its removal. AlexOUK 10:40, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
The opening section of United Kingdom does not currently conform with WP:LEAD, and in turn is in breach of the WP:GA terms. Articles must have a maximum of four paragraphs for the lead.
Perhaps the small amount of info on the constitutional monarchy status could be merged somehow? Jhamez84 15:47, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Just wondering if the UK's sectarian constitution and the fact of an established church in England is adequately covered. Even just the fact of an established church is rare (a few Euro countries, Saudi Arabia and Iran, etc.), but the fact that the UK has a constitution that excludes the Head of State either being, or marrying anyone, from possibly the largest religious group in the country is highly unusual and surely should be covered in some depth. Hughsheehy 17:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The footnotes at the bottom of the infobox take up a significant chunk of the infobox. It would be better to incorporate them into the main references section at the bottom. Is there any good reason to keep them in their current location? Green Giant 13:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The largest Mountain in Great Britain is not Scaffell Pike, I'm only 15 and I know that. It is Ben Nevis in Scotland —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 91.109.5.66 ( talk) 19:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC).
i changed the beginning to try and make it clearer and less cluttered. thank you! Why oh why not? 02:53, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
I found some of the history - but what you've ended up with here reads like crap. Seriously - it's not good! I'll do a little compromise, and see what you think.... Why oh why not? 23:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, sorry i was rude - i guess i just am. ANyhoo.. it seems to be a fucking wiki epedemic to say something and then have some bullshit explanation in parentheses - i think that makes it look goddam awful. If everyone wants it to look that way, then hey ho, whatever.... but it doesn't have to be that way. It's also really friggin' confusing because it says that UK is Britian, then it says the UK is Britain + Northern Ireland. I think there's a contradiction in there - it certainly doesn't make much sense to me... ho hum. Have a nice day. Why oh why not? 02:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I have discovered an orphaned article on Social structure of Britain. I'm not sure what to do with it, so am listing it here for people's attention. Bluap 04:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Hello fellow editors. A straw poll has opened today (27th March 2007) regarding the use of flags on the United Kingdom place infoboxes. There are several potential options to use, and would like as many contrubutors to vote on which we should decide upon. The straw poll is found here. If joining the debate, please keep a cool head and remain civil. We look forward to seeing you there. Jhamez84 11:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I've just looked at the map in high resolution and noticed that whoever made it has made a fundamental error. He has shaded the Channel Islands pink, as if they were in the EU. It's odd that he should have made this error since he correctly shaded the Isle of Man white. Still, whatever the reason, we need to get rid of it. TharkunColl 14:17, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The UK is a collection of states in their own right. Even the '10 Downing Street' website gives: "The UK also has 14 Overseas Territories (OTs) spread throughout the globe. They range from the tiny island of Pitcairn with its 54 inhabitants, set in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, to Bermuda, which has a population of 60,000 and is one of the world's major financial centres." 87.102.19.189 13:57, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
...
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
14:52, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't ever visit a Glasgow pub or a Philately CountryDefinitives convention without a stab-prof vest (wan smile).
More seriously, you'll note my last paragraph: "As far as national identities go, things are even more complicated and shifting but I just don't have the time to explain this..."
I still am time poor and I agree that there are at least four nations where I live. I can cheer on the British and Irish Lions rugby team, root for Scotland in the Six nations, have the pleasure of listening to the national news on Radio 4 and, if I live long enough probably sing an EU National Anthem. Few non-mathematical human constructs are black and white and categories overlap and mingle.
My personal opinion is that the USA is both sufficiently patriotic, ignorant and mono-cultural to regard itself as one country but I really suggest you don't test your theories in either the UAE or Antwerp. The UK, like most about it, is a bit of an odd-man-out. It's one country when it wants to be (when the chips are down it fights as one country) but is lucky enough to be able to have genuine "home internationals" in football [unlike the fake "World series" of Baseball.
Countries are born and die all the time. Cornwall was a country once (and may be again, but not in my lifetime). Yugoslavia is probably dead and buried for all time. Countries and nations are predominantly creatures of emotion and feeling. If enough people are willing to shed blood (theirs or someone elses) in the cause of an entity they believe to be a country then, voila! you've got yourself a country! Germany or Israel, It's only really islands (geographic or linguistic or racial) that tend to be natural countries or nations.......
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
16:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The result of the little edit war in the intro is now a garbled sentence. It originally said (including MarkThomas's minor improvement): "The UK also has fourteen overseas territories, including Bermuda, Gibraltar, Pitcairn and the Falkland Islands which are all remnants of the former British Empire which was, at its height, the world's most extensive.", but now reads "The UK also has fourteen overseas territories, including Bermuda, Gibraltar and various archipelagoes such as Falkland, BIOT and Pitcairn all of which are remnants of the former, world's most extensive, British Empire." The original wording was much better, in my opinion: the final clause doesn't read well. Also, "BIOT" seems to repeatedly creep into this sentence - it's a completely non-notable acronym, and given that there are only fourteen, one doesn't really need to list five here. Arguably Bermuda, Gibraltar, the Falkland Islands and Pitcairn are the most "famous" and the list can be limited to those four. I would change all of this myself except that I've already made three reversions on this article today. Gsd2000 20:20, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Another example of bad phrasing is 'the former British Empire'. As the 'British Empire' has never existed as a formal entity, it can't sensibly be described as 'former'. Pitcairn is as much a part of the British Empire as it was in 1920, for example.-- 86.31.234.172 22:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I sympathise with your point of view that it may at first sight be irrelevant that they are archipelagoes but in actual fact it is because of the historical power and spread of the Royal Navy that they became colonial outposts and also perhaps relevant to their current status and political wishes.
The fact that we have TWO articles on BIOT (off to cross-reference) makes my POV about notability for me.
However, I do need to criticise my first suggested sentence above as inaccurate.
It would need to be even more tortuous and long-winded to be accurate:
...
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
01:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Good effort!
Why are we mentioning those particular 4 out of 14?
Why do you wish to drop the internal links?
Personally, I would approve
If that sentence is acceptable to you then I suggest we need to wait 100 hours to see what, if any, other POV's evangelise....
Gaimhreadhan
(kiwiexile at DMOZ) •
02:33, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I have altered the section to get rid of "former, world's most extensive, British Empire", which sounds a little as if Britain had the most extensive British Empire ever. Which is true! But silly. The word "former" is redundant, given that the piece already states these 14 territories are remnants of that empire. However, this is not my preferred wording. It's just an attempt to get rid of what I think is a badly-written sentence immediately. I would have modern geography and political history in separate paragraphs. So, for example:
Hobson 19:34, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Don't agree AJ-India, I think it is roughly about the right length for a major country of Britain's historical and present-day stature. I would compare it for example with India which has a much longer introduction. Also it's important to realise that many editors and casual readers are often confused about the precise nature of the concept of "United Kingdom", "Britain", "England, Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland", "other territories", etc and the monarchy, so the existence of the first para is useful in exploring this. That's not to say that small changes couldn't be made but I would be against a major diminution of the lead. MarkThomas 08:16, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to be used on the map to refer to a rather sickly colour that's a mixture of flesh, pink, and all sorts of things. Let's get rid of it. TharkunColl 23:29, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
Canary Wharf, home of the three tallest buildings in britain.
Lies.
The tallest building in britain is now in manchester. Someone update this.
It's fairly simple: Camel is a browny colour, commonly seen as the colour of a CAMEL. Ninington 11:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)